Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights
Speaker 1: into the mind, brain, behavior and creativity. I'm doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation
Speaker 1: with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give
Speaker 1: you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world
Speaker 1: to live in. Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into
Speaker 1: human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast Today,
Speaker 1: it's great to have Michael Gervais on the podcast. Doctor
Speaker 1: Gervai is a world renowned high performance psychologist and industry visionary.
Speaker 1: Over the course of twenty years working with world leading performers,
Speaker 1: Doctor Gerveai has developed a psychological framework that allows people
Speaker 1: to thrive in pressure packed environments. His clientele consists of
Speaker 1: the NFL's Seattle Seahawks, countless Olympic medalists, MVPs from every
Speaker 1: major sport, world record holders, internationally acclaimed music artists, and
Speaker 1: corporate leaders. Doctor Gervay is a host of the popular
Speaker 1: Finding Mastery podcast that explores the psychology as some of
Speaker 1: the world's most extraordinary thinkers and doers. Doctor Jervey and
Speaker 1: NFL coach Pete Carroll founded Compete to Create, an online
Speaker 1: and live masterclass for the mind. They have worked with
Speaker 1: more than three thousand employees at Microsoft alone on the
Speaker 1: mental skills and strategies to unleash one's potential. Doctor Gervay
Speaker 1: and Pete Carrol have co authored the recently released audible
Speaker 1: original called Compete to Create. Also, Jervai is a published,
Speaker 1: peer reviewed author and recognized speaker and optimal human performance.
Speaker 1: He's been featured by NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, ESPN, NFL Network,
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Outside Magazine, Wired, ESPN Magazine,
Speaker 1: The Harvard Business Review, and others. Was that enough of
Speaker 1: a bio there, Mike, and I get to be fortunate
Speaker 1: to be Scott BARERR Kaufman's friend. I love it, Mike.
Speaker 1: It is so great to have you on the show today,
Speaker 1: if I may call you, Mike. Of course, I've been
Speaker 1: looking forward to this with you been looking forward to
Speaker 1: it as well. I think it's been maybe a couple
Speaker 1: of years since you've last been on a psychology podcast.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on everything that you've been putting together. And it's
Speaker 1: not lost on me the work that you've invested in
Speaker 1: trying to understand how to add to the body knowledge
Speaker 1: of our beautiful field. So well done, mate, Well thank you.
Speaker 1: That really does mean a lot to me. It's nice
Speaker 1: to have that noticed. That hard work. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about compete to create. It's an audible book now, I
Speaker 1: mean it was a training course and now you've turned
Speaker 1: it with Pete into an audible book. Why audible? Why
Speaker 1: that format? Well, I'm a fan of listening as a
Speaker 1: form of learning. I really like the visual and auditory
Speaker 1: systems as part of learning. So that's why we started
Speaker 1: the course. And then the reason we wanted to do
Speaker 1: an audible book, an Audible Originalist it's called is as
Speaker 1: an extension to the podcast experience for people and as
Speaker 1: an extension that you can listen to some stories rather
Speaker 1: than read them. And we will get to a book
Speaker 1: at some point, but we wanted to start with Audible
Speaker 1: as we're fans of what they've done. Yeah, they're great.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are really moving to
Speaker 1: audible these days. I think, I mean, I've sold more
Speaker 1: copies of my book on Audible than the hardcover version,
Speaker 1: especially during this pandemic. This might just just be exactly
Speaker 1: what the doctor ordered for a lot of people. Your
Speaker 1: book on audible. Well, you know, we had a lot
Speaker 1: of fun putting together this interactive relationship between stories and
Speaker 1: science and very tangible takeaways, you know, Like that's the
Speaker 1: thing about our field is that it's invisible. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we're working on the interior life, which is incredibly tricky,
Speaker 1: you know, to try to illuminate and create something that
Speaker 1: is noticeable in the way that we can change because
Speaker 1: it's an internal, private world that we're talking about. So
Speaker 1: I think we found the sweet spot between side. It's
Speaker 1: fun stories that he and I banter back and forth,
Speaker 1: and then obviously the takeaway tools. Well, let me step
Speaker 1: back a second, like where did you meet Pete Carroll?
Speaker 1: How did that happen that kis met? It was a
Speaker 1: mutual friend put us together and so they had assumed
Speaker 1: that we knew each other based on our world views,
Speaker 1: and so I said no and he said no. And
Speaker 1: so this person put us together over a mutual I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: over a dinner and it was just electric. It was
Speaker 1: a great dinner, great conversation. We talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously our world views, We talked about the science and
Speaker 1: the art that intersection of psychology, and then we talked
Speaker 1: about our calling for generativity, our calling to give, and
Speaker 1: we both had some nonprofit deep roots and nonprofit arena,
Speaker 1: and so we talked about that as well. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: are lots of areas of mutual interest between you and him,
Speaker 1: and the vision and philosophy seem to match quite well.
Speaker 1: What does the phrase compete to create mean? And I
Speaker 1: asked this because when I was on your show recently,
Speaker 1: we had a fun discussion about the word competition, and
Speaker 1: I want to concede something to you. Maybe that's ironic
Speaker 1: we're talking about competition, but what I liked about that
Speaker 1: conversation is that you convinced me that the word competition
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be this winner takes all sort of spirit,
Speaker 1: which maybe I had been thinking too much along those
Speaker 1: lines prior. Well for good reason, because if we were
Speaker 1: to ask somebody off the street, or even if you
Speaker 1: were to google, you know, something on your phone for
Speaker 1: the word competition, it would certainly come up being better
Speaker 1: than others. You know. And if you go back to
Speaker 1: the Latin origins of the word, it is to strive together,
Speaker 1: to work together. And so when we go back to
Speaker 1: the origins, it is like it's beautiful, you know, it's
Speaker 1: this idea of working together, striving, straining together to figure
Speaker 1: out potential. And it maps on that you know, biblic
Speaker 1: saying about iron Sharpen's iron. You know, it maps on
Speaker 1: to this idea that we create a rising tide together.
Speaker 1: It maps onto the idea of put your life fest
Speaker 1: on first, so that you can be there to help
Speaker 1: bring the best out of others even in dire times.
Speaker 1: So it really is this idea of the relationship between
Speaker 1: and the relationship between two people. But certainly we're double
Speaker 1: clicking on that and saying the relationship within yourself, and
Speaker 1: then we're extending it to the relationship with mother nature
Speaker 1: and so, you know, and not competing in the sense,
Speaker 1: but building the relationship to help to grow. And again
Speaker 1: it starts with yourself with others and then with mother nature.
Speaker 1: But your your question was about how do we come
Speaker 1: up with the title. As you can tell, we are
Speaker 1: not marketing you know, dynamos here. And so we sat
Speaker 1: in a room for hours and we had all these
Speaker 1: inspired words about like what we wanted our company to be,
Speaker 1: and we you know, and we had all really good words,
Speaker 1: you know, were the classic you know, Latin origin words
Speaker 1: and somewhere of Asian influence and some were, you know,
Speaker 1: like American words that we are, English words that we love,
Speaker 1: and so we're frustrated because we couldn't find the agreement.
Speaker 1: And so it kind of boiled down to, okay, well, Pete,
Speaker 1: what's what's what's the core word in your philosophy? And
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, you know, compete And he said, well
Speaker 1: what's yours? And I said create, And so I'll explain
Speaker 1: my philosophy in a minute. And so we looked at
Speaker 1: each other. He said, wait, wait, is it create to compete? No? No, no,
Speaker 1: compete to compete to create? And then he goes, wait
Speaker 1: see to see like from the seas to the you
Speaker 1: know or whatever, and so we just laughed and we said, yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: let's just go with it. It's weird, let's go with it.
Speaker 1: Compete to create and so it really means work your
Speaker 1: ass off, compete your ass off to create a living masterpiece.
Speaker 1: And so that's the essence behind it. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a weird title at all. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's just because I love the word create, you know
Speaker 1: that that's exciting to me. And I was wondering what
Speaker 1: your thoughts were on creativity and how you define that word. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: so now like I'm going to get step out of
Speaker 1: the margins of my lane into the square center of
Speaker 1: your lane. Here I don't so for me is when
Speaker 1: you create, it's the act of sorting something out that's
Speaker 1: new to you. And innovation is sharing something that is
Speaker 1: new to others. And so the creative process, I think
Speaker 1: is the artistic creative process is one of the highest
Speaker 1: expression mechanisms that we have, and it requires a command
Speaker 1: of inner self. It requires a command of craft, and
Speaker 1: it requires the ability to be in the present moment,
Speaker 1: and it requires vulnerability and courage, and artistic expression, I
Speaker 1: think is one of the highest forms of being human.
Speaker 1: And so you know, it snapped into my philosophy, which
Speaker 1: is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece.
Speaker 1: And if I could edit it slightly, it would be
Speaker 1: co create. But because it's a relationship you know, with self,
Speaker 1: others and mother nature, spiritual, if you will, the co creating.
Speaker 1: But not to confuse myself, it's I love the work create,
Speaker 1: So I want to I want to pause there and say,
Speaker 1: remind me how you see, because I've read your books,
Speaker 1: But remind me how you see and define the work create.
Speaker 1: There are very different definitions, as you know, and in
Speaker 1: the psychological literature there's the definition of creativity as novelty
Speaker 1: and meaningfulness. It has to have both components. But I
Speaker 1: like the return of the old humanistic sort of just
Speaker 1: simple definition, like the role may encouraged to create. He's like,
Speaker 1: creativity is just that you bring into being anything that
Speaker 1: didn't exist before. I'm like, you know what, I'm cool
Speaker 1: that I kind of like this bringing into being part. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the so'm I snap into the role of my
Speaker 1: piece as well, which is when and it's new to you, right,
Speaker 1: So when you do something that's new to you, that's
Speaker 1: part of the creative expression, and then when you share
Speaker 1: it with others that's innovation and that that that helps
Speaker 1: me sort out the difference between the two. And but
Speaker 1: the creative expression is awesome. It's the spontaneous spontaneity of it,
Speaker 1: but also the planning that goes ahead of it and
Speaker 1: the structure to break structure. I mean, I love that
Speaker 1: idea from form to break form, from form to form less.
Speaker 1: I love that idea. Yeah, I do too. Is this
Speaker 1: related all to the Bruce Lee water of course it is, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course it is. But it's also like part of
Speaker 1: my training and yours is about structure and form, and
Speaker 1: that's the gift that science can give us, you know.
Speaker 1: And then at some point we need to understand, well,
Speaker 1: where do we break structure and form and if we
Speaker 1: you know, triple click on the idea of form. The
Speaker 1: inside of sports psychology, we often talk about pre performance
Speaker 1: routines and so having routines to help us get to
Speaker 1: a place that we can be free. And I'm not
Speaker 1: a huge fan of pre performance routines, and I know
Speaker 1: the field and the industry is you know, doesn't like
Speaker 1: me to say that so much because it's one of
Speaker 1: the core mental skills. But I want to just put
Speaker 1: a note out there that it's a substandard state. So
Speaker 1: doing pre performance routines is substandard to the actual state
Speaker 1: of being here, being fully present and having this foundational
Speaker 1: approach to life, which is, yeah, no, I've got what
Speaker 1: it takes, and I know how to adjust, and I
Speaker 1: have some serious skills and I love challenges. So when
Speaker 1: I do this appraisal, that's you know, a nerd word
Speaker 1: that you and I like. When I do this appraisal
Speaker 1: of my internal and external. My internal skills are my
Speaker 1: external resources or challenge that I have. What it takes,
Speaker 1: I can figure it out. And so anyways, it's a
Speaker 1: long way of me saying that I love the idea
Speaker 1: form to break form. It's wonderful. Patricia Stokes, there's a
Speaker 1: great book she wrote that not many people have read,
Speaker 1: but it's good. It's creativity from constraints about how she
Speaker 1: goes through some of the best jazz musicians, artists, they
Speaker 1: put explicit constraints on their process and so they could
Speaker 1: be more creative. It's actually counterintuitive that we think that
Speaker 1: the more options we have, the more creative will be,
Speaker 1: when that's not the case at all, just at leads
Speaker 1: to being overwhelmed. I had a conversation with the former
Speaker 1: director of DARPA, which is a very significant and important
Speaker 1: innovative arm of the military, and she explained to me
Speaker 1: that the way that they would create and innovate is
Speaker 1: by creating constraints that were nearly unrealistic, and so that
Speaker 1: she'd say, I'd cobble together, you know, seven, eight, twelve
Speaker 1: of the brightest minds that I think could solve this thing,
Speaker 1: and then I'd put a ridiculous timeline on it and say, right,
Speaker 1: you got two weeks to solve world hunger whatever, and
Speaker 1: they really, you know, we're about technology and so and
Speaker 1: she says, it's amazing you take the distractions away, you
Speaker 1: put a really thoughtful team together and then create really
Speaker 1: clear boundaries and bumpers and constraints. And it's amazing what
Speaker 1: people can create. And so I learned that from from
Speaker 1: darker like the importance of constraints. I love that. And
Speaker 1: what is what is your thought? What are your thoughts
Speaker 1: in the role of the unconscious in competition and creativity? Okay,
Speaker 1: so can we talk about non conscious before we talk
Speaker 1: about unconscious? Can we do that? Yeah, so let me
Speaker 1: be mechanical for a moment before we enter the spiritual
Speaker 1: world of this spiritual slash psychological Okay, so mechanically if
Speaker 1: the non conscious, well, let's go upstream. If the brain
Speaker 1: has two main functions, it's a survival dictum, and part
Speaker 1: one is working in space in the environment for survival,
Speaker 1: so manipulating moving, you know, working with your environment for survival.
Speaker 1: And then the second is like a meaning making inference
Speaker 1: designing machine, right to make sense that what we understand
Speaker 1: or what I understand about the non conscious is more
Speaker 1: aligned to habits, and so we go from something that
Speaker 1: takes a lot of resources into something that we can
Speaker 1: do with some automaticity. And then when we can do
Speaker 1: it that way, it gets driven down into something that
Speaker 1: is more of a neurological patterning, you know. And so
Speaker 1: the non conscious. The mechanical way of thinking about the
Speaker 1: non conscious is that because we do things repeatedly, they
Speaker 1: become automatic, and that is a resource saving machine. It's expensive,
Speaker 1: you know, from a brain perspective, from a psychological safety mechanism,
Speaker 1: it's expensive to try to focus on things that could
Speaker 1: be automatic. And so the non conscious for me is
Speaker 1: a part of it is a bunch of patterns and
Speaker 1: being able. And this is where I think heuristics make sense,
Speaker 1: is that heuristics are that snapshot ability to have a
Speaker 1: quote unquote shortcut to what this moment means and what
Speaker 1: I need to do in this moment to optimize it.
Speaker 1: And if we're not careful, just survive. But you know,
Speaker 1: you and I like to think about optimization. So nonconscious
Speaker 1: is really about these the patterns that sit underneath the
Speaker 1: surface that we don't need to think about from a
Speaker 1: mechanical standpoint, and that is very important for the optimized
Speaker 1: experience as a human and it's also a trap, so
Speaker 1: it's got both of those. Yeah, told double edged sword. Well,
Speaker 1: this idea of optimization very interesting. I'm hoping we could
Speaker 1: unpack it a little bit intill Actually, I would love
Speaker 1: to do that with you, but I want to hear
Speaker 1: your take. I want I just said because our friendship.
Speaker 1: What I love about our friendship is yeah, because we
Speaker 1: go like, we go back and forth. You know about
Speaker 1: things and iron sharpens iron. So I respect your acumen
Speaker 1: and your intelligence and your curiosity. So I'd love for
Speaker 1: you to push back or or not your head to
Speaker 1: how you see that unconscious? Thank you, Michael. My style
Speaker 1: is when I'm doing the interviews is instead of just
Speaker 1: turning the spotlight back of me, I ask quarifying questions
Speaker 1: and then that I'll stimulate in me some it helped.
Speaker 1: It's like a covert way of me being able to
Speaker 1: comprehend areas of agreement and disagreement. So I was hoping
Speaker 1: if you could unpack a little more with this idea
Speaker 1: is of getting better, and then I'll respond to that
Speaker 1: once you can do that, sure, But what I what
Speaker 1: I want to understand is you know, you talk about optimization,
Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways your book is about
Speaker 1: getting better. And what I what I want to understand
Speaker 1: is your conception of like what is the assm tope there?
Speaker 1: Like what what is the endgame? What is it? What
Speaker 1: do you what's your north star goal of to mean?
Speaker 1: What does it mean to get better? And once I
Speaker 1: understand that better, then I'll definitely and beautiful. Well, let's
Speaker 1: go north star first and then I'll work backwards. So
Speaker 1: the north star is being being here wow, not doing no,
Speaker 1: being present, being authentic, being grounded, you know, having your
Speaker 1: mind and your body in the same place, doing the
Speaker 1: same thing. And so that's the essence of it, and
Speaker 1: the axiom that sits underneath that is you have everything
Speaker 1: you need already inside you and to do the being.
Speaker 1: And so let's start with the north star. That's the
Speaker 1: north star. And then when we think about what happens
Speaker 1: for most people is being is easy. Let's say over
Speaker 1: a cup of tea with friends or glass of wine
Speaker 1: at dinner, Like being is easy when the environment is easy, Okay,
Speaker 1: when it's conducive, when it's favorable. And as we go
Speaker 1: up the ladder or tight trate up, stress or pressure
Speaker 1: or not consequent environments, can you still be you? And
Speaker 1: so what does that mean to be you? It means
Speaker 1: your mind and your body in the same place, doing
Speaker 1: the same thing, and doing it authentically to your principles
Speaker 1: and your value structures, like your virtues and I don't
Speaker 1: really love the word virtues, but doing it into your
Speaker 1: character style. And so that's what it means. Now, what
Speaker 1: I have come to find is that we need mental
Speaker 1: skills to be able to do that in the most
Speaker 1: consequential environments because we start to make different sense of
Speaker 1: what happens. If maybe I can't be myself because I
Speaker 1: need to play it safe and small, or I tighten
Speaker 1: up whatever. And it's really hard to be free when
Speaker 1: you have the perception of a moment having consequence. And
Speaker 1: so that's where mental skills come in. That's where they're
Speaker 1: getting better at. The mental game is about and so
Speaker 1: it's the mental game really is twofold. When I think
Speaker 1: of psychology, if I could oversimplify the beautiful science that
Speaker 1: we have fallen in love with, is that there's a
Speaker 1: discovery piece to it and then there's a skill building piece.
Speaker 1: And so I just want to oversimplify that we need
Speaker 1: both need to understand deeply and who we are, what
Speaker 1: we're about, how we make sense of the world around us.
Speaker 1: And then the other part is like, what are the
Speaker 1: skills that are going to help What are the psychological
Speaker 1: skills they are going to help me be about it
Speaker 1: on a more consistent basis? And when that happens, I
Speaker 1: got it, and I don't. I don't know anyone that
Speaker 1: has it. You know, maybe dollylid In Jesus and Scott
Speaker 1: Bury Kaufman. But like, no, no, no, no, no, I
Speaker 1: love what you're saying, and I just still did in
Speaker 1: my in my notes as you were talking to know
Speaker 1: thyself and then be better than yourself. Let's think about
Speaker 1: that from it, think about it, think about it. Know thyself. Yes,
Speaker 1: because because you know, Carl Rogers talked a lot about
Speaker 1: I know you like Car Rodgers too. We both nerd
Speaker 1: out of a Car Roger. He says. The curious paradox
Speaker 1: is that once I accept myself, then I can change.
Speaker 1: And you know this discovery part. You may discover things
Speaker 1: you don't like about yourself, but you still accept them,
Speaker 1: but you still want to change them ultimately, So Yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go. Yeah, that's what I meant, That's what's up.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's that's important Nuanced to bring
Speaker 1: about is that there is there when you use your
Speaker 1: imagination or you're around people that are going to use
Speaker 1: their imagination for you. That one of the things that
Speaker 1: we can do is we can imagine what it's like
Speaker 1: when we are truly authentically ourselves in all of its essence,
Speaker 1: and we're our highest form, right, the most joyous whatever
Speaker 1: that means to you, the most joyous, the most intense,
Speaker 1: the most present, whatever that means to your unique way
Speaker 1: of engaging in the world. That that is that aspirationally
Speaker 1: is the idea. And so when you use your imagination,
Speaker 1: and sometimes that means you tackle back to times in
Speaker 1: your in your past where you have been absolutely brilliant present,
Speaker 1: and you wonder, like, can I do that more often?
Speaker 1: You know, what would it be like if I was
Speaker 1: that version of myself more often? That's what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: like creating this idea, this vision about what it means
Speaker 1: when you are fully syncopated and integrated into an environment
Speaker 1: and that environment potentially has what once brought you stress.
Speaker 1: You can mitigate that or even dissolve that pressure by
Speaker 1: being fully skilled and having a deep commitment, a fundamental
Speaker 1: commitment to be yourself in every set environment. And so
Speaker 1: I'll just add one little nuance to the end of
Speaker 1: this and I'll step talking. Is that I mentioned somebody
Speaker 1: else using their imagination that in some respects is the
Speaker 1: highest one of the highest forms of love is that
Speaker 1: you're so present with another person that you get glimpses
Speaker 1: of what it would be like for them to be
Speaker 1: what you've seen and smelt and heard and felt for
Speaker 1: them to be about it on a regular basis. And
Speaker 1: then you're so present with them that you see it,
Speaker 1: you feel it, and then you have that vulnerable meats
Speaker 1: courageous meets bold relationship to say to that person, Hey,
Speaker 1: you know what, can I share something with you? They say, yeah,
Speaker 1: what's up? So when I think about like what I've
Speaker 1: seen from you and what is amazing about you? This
Speaker 1: is what I see? What do you think? And then
Speaker 1: there's this calibration of like a better version of you,
Speaker 1: and that, in many respects is one of the beautiful
Speaker 1: gifts of love. See, this is why this dialectical is beautiful,
Speaker 1: because I'm just modifated, modified on the spot in my
Speaker 1: two maxioms. So it sounds like know thyself and then
Speaker 1: become a better version of yourself. Yeah. And then what
Speaker 1: that gets tricky is that when you really know yourself,
Speaker 1: are we talking about embracing all of the character flaws
Speaker 1: and all of the assets, right, like all of that,
Speaker 1: Yes we are, yeah, And then we're saying if you
Speaker 1: were able to, like you think about this expanded version
Speaker 1: of you and visions. There's a complication with that language,
Speaker 1: right because it sounds like it's a thin slice, like
Speaker 1: a version, or it's a manifestation of something that is
Speaker 1: less than now. But if you were to embrace what
Speaker 1: it would be like if you were more consistently loving,
Speaker 1: more consistently authentic, more consistently caring or compassionate or whatever,
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about, Like, if you're working on
Speaker 1: I don't know strength, what would that look like and
Speaker 1: feel like? And then that's the north star being that
Speaker 1: more often And then we back into a strategy and
Speaker 1: a plan to help make that happen. I guess the
Speaker 1: way I was thinking about it is that when you
Speaker 1: focus on things like mindfulness and attention, you use those
Speaker 1: as skills to be as present as you can to
Speaker 1: the best that's within you, so that you don't get
Speaker 1: constantly distracted by and into other people's dramas and other
Speaker 1: people's selves. I guess that's what I was thinking about.
Speaker 1: You know, why your skill building is so important is
Speaker 1: because that skill set gives you the attentional abilities to
Speaker 1: not be so driven by everyone else's desire to suck
Speaker 1: you into their life story. You know. So that's the
Speaker 1: way I was thinking about it. That's it. That's exactly
Speaker 1: how I think about it as well, is that you know,
Speaker 1: it's through the relationship with ourselves that we become with
Speaker 1: others as well in other nature, but that relationship is
Speaker 1: born through deep focus and attention. And when we're in
Speaker 1: mechanisms or i'm sorry, environments of perceived or real pressure
Speaker 1: or consequence, then our attention goes to something that is
Speaker 1: more immediately required, which is survival. And so you nailed it.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you learn how to be aware
Speaker 1: of what's true and what's present and what is unfolding
Speaker 1: and how you're responding to the unfolding environment, you end
Speaker 1: up learning that not all your choices are the ones
Speaker 1: that are beautiful. Sometimes they're scratchy and irritated and frust
Speaker 1: full of frustration, you know, and if you if that's
Speaker 1: okay for you, then that's okay. But also it's important
Speaker 1: to embrace that when we are frustrated with others, that
Speaker 1: there is some of scar tissue that happens in the relationships.
Speaker 1: And you know, so that's okay. We just need to,
Speaker 1: you know, spend more time I think, becoming aware. And
Speaker 1: when we when people do embrace that deep commitment to awareness,
Speaker 1: which is what mindfulness really is about. You know that
Speaker 1: we're a significant part of mindfulness. We end up recognizing
Speaker 1: that we're all just trying to figure it out. Like
Speaker 1: we're just trying to do our very best based on
Speaker 1: our genetic gifts and liabilities, based on what we've been taught,
Speaker 1: what we've been unto taught. You know, we're just trying
Speaker 1: to figure it out and do our best. Some people
Speaker 1: have incredible natural skills, but most people that pursue potential
Speaker 1: have a relentless commitment to organize their inner life and
Speaker 1: their skills and physical skills and talents their craft to
Speaker 1: be able to express them across said environments. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a good point, but there's surely there's individual differences in that,
Speaker 1: as you point out those who are committed to that.
Speaker 1: But aren't there a lot of people who aren't trying
Speaker 1: to do their best? I mean they don't. They don't
Speaker 1: they're not consciously actively working towards that. You know, it's
Speaker 1: an interesting philosophical dilemma about humanity. Most people that I know, well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the people I work with. They're the
Speaker 1: half percenters, you know, the absolute freaks in the way
Speaker 1: that they've organized their life to express their talents. Most
Speaker 1: of them would say oh, yeah, yeah, and they'd still
Speaker 1: say that, but there's more to go. Now. Then when
Speaker 1: we double click to you know, the ninety nine percent
Speaker 1: the rest of us, I think I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: what you think. I think most people think that they
Speaker 1: are doing pretty well. They're trying to be their best,
Speaker 1: but they also know that there's more to go. So
Speaker 1: I don't see a big difference other than the fundamental
Speaker 1: orientation of how you design your life. And I say
Speaker 1: that because so often, as you recognize, people are looking
Speaker 1: for shortcuts and hacks and tricks and tips and seven
Speaker 1: steps or whatever, and that's all bullshit. There's none it.
Speaker 1: We make a mistake. Oh you just like tell you
Speaker 1: a lot of people saying claus don't exist. Oh, I know.
Speaker 1: So we make a mistake when we see the people
Speaker 1: on the podium and we say, oh, it's amazing. Look
Speaker 1: at the hardware, look at the imagine their life now,
Speaker 1: look at what sits before it, which is the fundamental
Speaker 1: organization of how they manage and struck sure their life,
Speaker 1: their day to day life. It's a fundamental commitment towards
Speaker 1: that aim. So I think most people know that they
Speaker 1: think that they're doing pretty damn good and know that
Speaker 1: there's more to go, even if you're on the continuum
Speaker 1: of mental illness, on the on the continuum of the
Speaker 1: human experience for mental illness, suffering all the way up
Speaker 1: to some sort of optimization. I think everybody has pretty
Speaker 1: much the same approach, which is I'm doing pretty good,
Speaker 1: I'm doing my best, and there's more to go. Take
Speaker 1: people who score high in like the dark triad of personality,
Speaker 1: which is something I've studied in a narcissism, psychopathy, and macavalism.
Speaker 1: So their primary motivation is I'm not convinced. Their primary
Speaker 1: motivation is growth and trying to be there a best self.
Speaker 1: Their primary motivation is how can I exploit others? How
Speaker 1: can I manipulate others from my gain? How can I
Speaker 1: have control over others? Do you? Would you still say
Speaker 1: even in those cases, those individuals are trying to Uh,
Speaker 1: they're just they're just doing their best. Like would you
Speaker 1: say that about Dark Triad individuals? Okay, So let me
Speaker 1: pull this apart in two directions. One, their north star
Speaker 1: is different than the north star you and I are
Speaker 1: talking about, so exactly, I think the framework is still
Speaker 1: the same that they are working. The Dark Triad folks
Speaker 1: are I don't know if I can use this word,
Speaker 1: but they're skilled, you know, like they're really committed to
Speaker 1: let's call power. They're really committed to something that you
Speaker 1: and I are not committed to, and they are organizing
Speaker 1: their life toward that aim. So they their commitment is
Speaker 1: important and so they're flat out committed just like the
Speaker 1: rest of us. It's just a different north star. Well
Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking is that, you know, people
Speaker 1: definitely definitely have different north stars, But you think that
Speaker 1: within them is still this potentiality that wants to be
Speaker 1: a better person. No, not be a better person, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think that they want to be better and their
Speaker 1: north star is just different. That's right. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: super complicated, but let's answer. See if we can answer
Speaker 1: this question. Was Genghis Khan a good leader? Was Mussolini
Speaker 1: a good leader? Was Hitler a good leader? Was Bin
Speaker 1: Laden a good leader? You know, like it's complicated to
Speaker 1: even bring that question up because of the destruction that
Speaker 1: they have left in their way. Were they trying to
Speaker 1: maximize their approach toward their north star? Probably it's not
Speaker 1: the north star you and I are anyone invested in
Speaker 1: or even find to be beautiful. But was how did
Speaker 1: they organize their life fundamentally toward that north star? And
Speaker 1: that's what makes it scary to me. Not everybody's nice, kind,
Speaker 1: oh loving, beautiful. There's evil, dangerous people in the world.
Speaker 1: So this is really helpful to help me qualify your
Speaker 1: worldview and what you and pru in the book, because
Speaker 1: you're you're ensconsious in this world of sports where for
Speaker 1: a lot of people, I mean, doing is what matters.
Speaker 1: You don't just you don't have people. You don't have
Speaker 1: the quarterback, you know, taking the ball and start meditating
Speaker 1: in the middle of the field and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: like he's like, nah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna be be doing this game. So how do you
Speaker 1: how do you help the players balance the two or not?
Speaker 1: Maybe balance isn't even the right word. Integrate the two
Speaker 1: where they're they're being on the field, but they're still
Speaker 1: like they want to win the game, right, Like, let's
Speaker 1: be honest. Yeah, oh yeah, good question, and thanks. I
Speaker 1: like keep it a real mic. You like that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. It's a big word to me, yeah, or
Speaker 1: big phrase. So well, so let's think about like how
Speaker 1: this works, because I really appreciate that you pull back
Speaker 1: the word balance. Integration is a better word. And then
Speaker 1: so the preparation it requires, whether you're a zen Buddhist,
Speaker 1: whether you are quarterback, whether you're an entrepreneur or a parent,
Speaker 1: it requires some sort of development inner development of your
Speaker 1: inner skills as well as external skills to be able
Speaker 1: to integrate those two or merge them in a moving environment. Right,
Speaker 1: And so the moving environment is like this moment to
Speaker 1: the next moment, to the next moment, and then based
Speaker 1: on your perception, you compress the intensity of that moment
Speaker 1: and your perception is like this is this a big moment,
Speaker 1: which you, and I will humbly, I think chuckle that
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as a big moment, that there's
Speaker 1: just there's again this moment. Don Drake have a song
Speaker 1: arguing there is such a thing as a big moment.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like I feel you. I think
Speaker 1: that it's when you listen to ESPN and Fox and whatever,
Speaker 1: like the defining game, the biggest moment of their life.
Speaker 1: You know, like like it's a common narrative, but when
Speaker 1: you down it really is this moment is all we get.
Speaker 1: So how do we do this? There's a training in
Speaker 1: preparation and that's a big part of integrating the being
Speaker 1: and the doing, but it is really about doing so
Speaker 1: and then when you're out in the field doing your thing,
Speaker 1: it really is about doing in that moment. So how
Speaker 1: do they relate is that instead of putting doing first.
Speaker 1: So I'm a human doer. You know that that old
Speaker 1: kind of narrative is a little bit trite. But the
Speaker 1: idea to reorganize and decouple the idea that I am
Speaker 1: what I do, decouple the idea that I only matter
Speaker 1: based on what I do and what we're seeing is
Speaker 1: the best in the world are doing this very aggressive
Speaker 1: move that they're saying, no, no, I'll hold on. I
Speaker 1: need to be first. I need to make the commitment
Speaker 1: to be in the present moment because that's the key
Speaker 1: hole for high performance. It's also the key hole for
Speaker 1: wisdom and love and beauty and true and good. So
Speaker 1: I need to be committed to the being first and
Speaker 1: then let the doing flow from there. So what does
Speaker 1: that mean? Be present, be grounded, be authentic, be creative,
Speaker 1: be skilled, be first, and then let the loving be loving,
Speaker 1: and then let the doing flow from there. And so
Speaker 1: that that's a that's a revolution. That is not Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a revolution. It's a revolution of organization, organizing
Speaker 1: thought to be able to flourish in any environment that
Speaker 1: you want to be in. This is why I consider
Speaker 1: you Sinequon Non in your lane like there's no one
Speaker 1: like Michael Gervais. And I'm gonna explain why. And I
Speaker 1: really do mean this. You've have been a meditator for
Speaker 1: twenty years, right, You've really practiced the art of being
Speaker 1: personally and you're simultaneously very much in the high performance space.
Speaker 1: You tend to see, you know, people who are expert
Speaker 1: metric that they stay on the Mountain in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, and no disrespect to expert meditator listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast that just because you're not playing for the
Speaker 1: super Bowl, I don't think any less of you or
Speaker 1: you know on the Super Bowl field coaching. But this
Speaker 1: is not a matter of comparison comparing it others. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying why your approach is so unique because you're
Speaker 1: combining this being aspect in a really high doing environment.
Speaker 1: I wonder on a personal level, Mike, does it ever
Speaker 1: give you? Do you ever face attention? Do you ever
Speaker 1: feel like there's that the being and the doing part
Speaker 1: are kind of it's hard for you to to integrate
Speaker 1: the two among the players that you that you coach.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's hard for me sometimes too. And I've
Speaker 1: spent my life trying to sort out this relationship between
Speaker 1: the two being in doing. And I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1: Is because, okay, let's be materialistic in a moment for
Speaker 1: a moment, is that if the doing doesn't go well,
Speaker 1: and in high performing environments, the runway is short, and
Speaker 1: the most consequential environments, if you make a mistake and
Speaker 1: you or to perish or love one where to die
Speaker 1: like the runway is incredibly short with the mistake. Okay,
Speaker 1: but then when you think about rugged environments, like the
Speaker 1: NFL is a rugged environment and the performance standards are
Speaker 1: really high. So it's like, I think it's the first
Speaker 1: four games of the season is somewhere in there. Four
Speaker 1: to six games of the season is where coaches are
Speaker 1: getting fired based on what on the doing. So here's
Speaker 1: the challenge just on the on the most basic level
Speaker 1: is that and and I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: dilemma in a moment, but the challenge is if the
Speaker 1: doing isn't good enough, people are are going home, you know,
Speaker 1: and so what does that mean? There's a there's an
Speaker 1: existential threat potentially to safety and security and all those
Speaker 1: things that are so important you know, to your work
Speaker 1: with Maslow, and so that that's that's a struggle. And
Speaker 1: then the other part is like it's also like you
Speaker 1: want to see people do their very best, but how
Speaker 1: how do people do their very best? It is by
Speaker 1: committing to being And so you actually can't just hear
Speaker 1: me say that and say, yeah, that sounds intellectually smart.
Speaker 1: You have to really understand and embrace what it means
Speaker 1: to be fully present, whether they're rubber bullets or live bullets.
Speaker 1: What it means to be in a moment that is
Speaker 1: consequential and drop your hips and have that thing behind
Speaker 1: your eyes that is a force to be reckoned with,
Speaker 1: whether it is a spiritual leader or somebody fighting for
Speaker 1: their family or somebody that is competing with teammates, you know,
Speaker 1: skill against skill and dropping your weight, you know, your
Speaker 1: hips and having that thing behind your eyes. You recognize
Speaker 1: it when you're in it, And there's something incredibly expansive
Speaker 1: when you are able to harness it. And I imagine
Speaker 1: that's what doctor King felt when he was on stage,
Speaker 1: you know, with his beautiful speeches. And I imagine that
Speaker 1: what Mandela was feeling when he was writing his pros.
Speaker 1: And I imagine that's what Buddha felt when he was
Speaker 1: underneath the tree, you know. Like I imagine that's what
Speaker 1: Scott Barry Kauffman is like when you know he puts
Speaker 1: together the final touches of like the commitment of his book.
Speaker 1: Like I imagine that that's that's what it's about. Like
Speaker 1: you're really able to be present and have some conviction
Speaker 1: about yourself at the same time be fluid and open
Speaker 1: and adapt to the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, which is man
Speaker 1: that is such an electric way of going through life,
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, I often sometimes I'll go days, I'll
Speaker 1: forget to eat, I'll forget I forget call my mom back,
Speaker 1: and that's bad, that's really bad. I ever forget to
Speaker 1: call your mom back. Moms come back with a vengeance.
Speaker 1: How often do you and your mom speak what we
Speaker 1: try to every day? We try to every day. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the same with my dad, who's my you know,
Speaker 1: my best friend really But anyway, I don't want to
Speaker 1: take a detour, but yeah, I love I love a
Speaker 1: lot of what you're saying. It's it's really great to
Speaker 1: kind of hear about someone who's all about being someone
Speaker 1: who's on the front lines in a way, and I
Speaker 1: imagine the same principles, right if I could be applied
Speaker 1: to the Army, could be applied to you know, if
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone in the Navy seals, they
Speaker 1: would probably tell me something very similar, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: we're we have the goal right like do this, and
Speaker 1: and they're pretty lofty goals, but they're probably not thinking
Speaker 1: about the broader goal in the moment. They're thinking about
Speaker 1: probably micro goals of pure absorption in trying to survive
Speaker 1: and deal with certain situations, Is that right? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then after the age of like three, we detrain ourselves
Speaker 1: away from the ability to be fully present, you know,
Speaker 1: because we've got all these perceptions that we're working with
Speaker 1: and heuristics, and you know, we've got we've got noise.
Speaker 1: And so this really is the practice, the psychological practice
Speaker 1: of discovery and mental skills is really about being more
Speaker 1: proficient with the signal to noise ratio. So what's the signal.
Speaker 1: It's the present moment being where your body and your
Speaker 1: mind are doing the same thing, and the noise are
Speaker 1: all the things, whether they're internal distractions or external distractions,
Speaker 1: are all it's all the noise that are pulling you
Speaker 1: from either having an unskilled mind or having a let's
Speaker 1: call it a lazy approach, an undisciplined approach, you know,
Speaker 1: to being present. Yeah, so it's the signal to noise ratio.
Speaker 1: It's an engineering term, but I think it's a psychological
Speaker 1: term maybe even more importantly. So absolutely it has a
Speaker 1: lot of applicability for a lot of even down to
Speaker 1: like the dopamine level people viewsed that you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of like schizophrenics who have too much dopamine, they
Speaker 1: have too much of noise and not so much of
Speaker 1: the signal of reality. So that that metaphor has been
Speaker 1: used in so many ways to understand human psyche. So
Speaker 1: you've introduced a concept in your book that you say
Speaker 1: is one of the great constrictors of human potential, and
Speaker 1: you call it faupo. I love it, Mike, I love it.
Speaker 1: Can tell us a little what faupo is fear of
Speaker 1: people's opinion and so good. Yeah, I think you coin that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like it was an accident, you know how things happen,
Speaker 1: And I think it's one of the great constrictors for
Speaker 1: modern time. So remember, our brain is trying to sort
Speaker 1: out survival and this is not there's no stretches I'm
Speaker 1: going to make here. But not long ago, the great
Speaker 1: dangers of our our world were, you know, lines in
Speaker 1: the bush and warning tribes and whatever. So we had
Speaker 1: to be really attuned to our environment for survival. And
Speaker 1: we don't have lines in the brush anymore. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not kind of what's happening. But our brain, our
Speaker 1: ancient brain, is still attuned to the environment, and so
Speaker 1: what are the great threats right now. If it's not
Speaker 1: a lion, well, it's what people think of us, and
Speaker 1: it's heightened by our social media platforms that are sharing,
Speaker 1: Oh what is wonderful, it's the highlight reel of others,
Speaker 1: and so it's creeped up on it. I think in
Speaker 1: a pretty dramatic way, is that one of the great constrictors.
Speaker 1: Fear is a constrictor literally from a neurochemical, neuroelectrical, ner
Speaker 1: muscular approach creates an environment of constriction that we end
Speaker 1: up playing it safe when we feel that there's a threat.
Speaker 1: And so the threat is being kicked out of the tribe,
Speaker 1: not being good enough, and so I think it's in
Speaker 1: bottom times that's the one we're wrestling with. Otherwise, why
Speaker 1: would why would people struggle so much to be on stage? Really,
Speaker 1: what's at risk? It's one thing. It's what other people
Speaker 1: think of us. That's it. That's the only thing at stake.
Speaker 1: And because the people don't, I'm afraid my pants are
Speaker 1: just gonna fall down or something spontaneously. That's my fear.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, has that ever happened? Never? But I did.
Speaker 1: I think my fly was down once and that was horrible. Too,
Speaker 1: same thing I was. I was mortified. It was a
Speaker 1: halfway through the break and so it was like a
Speaker 1: three hour thing. It was about halfway through the break
Speaker 1: someone comes up to me and goes, hey, I just
Speaker 1: got to let you know. I was like, you got
Speaker 1: to be kidding me, and they're like, yeah, I've had
Speaker 1: it too. But you know, I mean we've all been there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Once you've done it and you
Speaker 1: make it through something, this is this is the point
Speaker 1: we can build up to anything in the life. I
Speaker 1: feel like it really gives me confidence that I can
Speaker 1: I'm not so careful fearful s careful. I almost made
Speaker 1: up a word, I'm not so fearful again, you know,
Speaker 1: of being in that situation because my worst case scenario
Speaker 1: kind of happened. Matt Abraham Aso talked a lot about
Speaker 1: this in terms of death. He said, if everyone could
Speaker 1: just die and then come back be resurrected, our second
Speaker 1: life would be amazing. I'm right there with you, and
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we get a look at that when
Speaker 1: we break up, or we lose a job, or we
Speaker 1: get cut or fired, is that we make some commitments
Speaker 1: to ourselves about how if we get another chance, how
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. And it's actually the origin
Speaker 1: story of how coach Carroll ended up at USC is
Speaker 1: that he got fired twice from two different NFL jobs,
Speaker 1: and looking back when if he was in the conversation,
Speaker 1: he'd say, you know, I just I didn't fully commit
Speaker 1: when I was there, I was trying to be half me,
Speaker 1: half what the GM wanted, half what the owner wanted,
Speaker 1: half what the team wanted, like and I was I
Speaker 1: just I didn't have a full commitment. So he got
Speaker 1: fired from a second NFL job, and he said, I
Speaker 1: got to figure this out. If I get another shot,
Speaker 1: you know, at a at a potentially successful program, I
Speaker 1: got to know who I am. I got to know
Speaker 1: what is it that I'm going to stand for. So
Speaker 1: he wrote, pulled out spiral notebooks and just wrote. And
Speaker 1: that's the beginnings of having a clear philosophy. And so
Speaker 1: when he got a chance at USC, he's like, I
Speaker 1: know exactly how I'm going to do it. And during
Speaker 1: the interview he's like, this is how I'm going to
Speaker 1: approach it, and the stat the hiring committee was like,
Speaker 1: damn that sounds pret damn good. He says, yeah, but
Speaker 1: I got I gotta really go for it completely. That's
Speaker 1: the authentic approach. And so part of what we do,
Speaker 1: whether it's in our book or our course, is that
Speaker 1: we walk people through a process to get more clear.
Speaker 1: Is that a right way to say it? You get
Speaker 1: greater clarity about your philosophy, and so it's a I
Speaker 1: think what's powerful about having a philosophy, Scott, is that
Speaker 1: once you, once you know who you are, nobody can
Speaker 1: ever take it away from you. No external experience, no win,
Speaker 1: no loss, no sneer from others, no eye rolling, no chuckle,
Speaker 1: nothing that happens outside of you can ever take away
Speaker 1: your understanding of who you are. And that's a very
Speaker 1: powerful piece of work. That is profound. Especially I don't
Speaker 1: know if you have you heard of cancel culture. I have.
Speaker 1: When you're canceled, you're saying you can still like even
Speaker 1: that can't take it away from you. Once you know
Speaker 1: who you are, nobody can ever take it away from you.
Speaker 1: So it's a really really profound point. Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: thinking about that a lot. Actually, we can give it
Speaker 1: away right if we don't have kind of the internal skills.
Speaker 1: And that's why knowing how to generate I know, you
Speaker 1: know the Scott But knowing how to generate calmness is
Speaker 1: a mental skill. Knowing how to generate confidence is a
Speaker 1: mental skill, and it is not dependent on past success.
Speaker 1: How about that for a thought. It only comes from
Speaker 1: one place, which is what you say to yourself. But
Speaker 1: what you say to yourself has to be rooted in credibility.
Speaker 1: It has to be grounded in something that's authentic and
Speaker 1: real and hard and difficult, so that you can earn
Speaker 1: the right to say to yourself, I can do difficult things.
Speaker 1: You know. That's the essence of confidence, is like I
Speaker 1: think I can go do that, and that's a trainable skill.
Speaker 1: Why would we leave that up to chance. I didn't
Speaker 1: learn it in third grade, sixth grade, ninth grade. I
Speaker 1: didn't learn it college. I didn't learn it from sport.
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I got taught something, uh
Speaker 1: the antithesis in sport, which was be confident? Am I
Speaker 1: come on, now, just be confident? And I say to myself,
Speaker 1: as a kid, what the fuck are we talking about? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? Be confident? But just believing yourself? Well,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Like I'm terrified that I'm gonna screw
Speaker 1: this thing up. And everyone. I'm gonna let people down
Speaker 1: and Mike, come on, just relax. What are we talking how?
Speaker 1: I hate all those things you just said. When people
Speaker 1: say it to me, Oh it's yeah, it's it's unskilled,
Speaker 1: I'll freak it out. Just relax, Just relax. You're figging
Speaker 1: me out even more. Yeah, well it's an unskilled coach.
Speaker 1: It's an unskilled you know, applied psychologist. Hey, Mike, do
Speaker 1: you mind if I bring in my friend here a second,
Speaker 1: who's a terrific sports psychologist, christ to Striker. She just
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you one or two questions. Would you
Speaker 1: mind come on the unfolding and the unpredictable unknown? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go awesome? She uh she she wrote the book
Speaker 1: The twelve Minute, and she has that same app Michael,
Speaker 1: it's so nice to talk to you. First of all,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to clarify I'm not a sports psychologist yet,
Speaker 1: but I'm aspiring and I'm your word just give me
Speaker 1: so much hope. I'm just listening to that interview and
Speaker 1: tearing up. I just you. I feel like you make
Speaker 1: everyone want to be better and it just gives me
Speaker 1: so much hope for humanity. So thank you. Oh my goodness. Awesome. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm very emotional right now. Yeah. So you know what
Speaker 1: we call this, We call it clear in the tube.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so like before or after moments that are
Speaker 1: are important that we call it clear in the tube.
Speaker 1: And if you can clear the tube more often in
Speaker 1: life we kind of end up holding onto less and
Speaker 1: it's it's incredible, and so thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So I was wondering you work with,
Speaker 1: like you said, the top half percent, the most amazing people,
Speaker 1: elite athletes, you know, top of their game, and all
Speaker 1: of these people, from what I can tell, seem to
Speaker 1: love challenges. They seem to love leaning into that hard
Speaker 1: thing that the rest of us have a really tough
Speaker 1: time with. I was wondering if you had any thoughts
Speaker 1: on how the kind of average person the rest of
Speaker 1: us could love challenges more. Okay, it's a good question,
Speaker 1: Like I don't think there's an easy answer to this,
Speaker 1: but it does come down to something quite simple, which
Speaker 1: is to make a decision, you know, like make the
Speaker 1: decision how are you going to engage with difficult challenges?
Speaker 1: How are you going to do it? And if you
Speaker 1: make the decision and then like in the decisions quite simple.
Speaker 1: It's like, I know the challenges are coming, and I
Speaker 1: want to tell you a couple of stories as I go.
Speaker 1: I know challenges are coming, and I'm going to make
Speaker 1: a decision that when I'm in the inside the challenge
Speaker 1: or approaching the challenge, that I'm going to fall in
Speaker 1: love with the exploration the adventure to see if I
Speaker 1: can be me and I can access my skills. Because
Speaker 1: that is the fundamental commitment I've made in life. It's
Speaker 1: that clear of a decision, right. Most people haven't quite
Speaker 1: made the fundamental decision and they see challenges something that
Speaker 1: they're just not skilled up. So we've got to go
Speaker 1: upstream if you will, or down to the roots if
Speaker 1: you will, and say making that fundamental commitment. And I
Speaker 1: want to share a story. And kartch Karai is one
Speaker 1: of the greats, and he is a volleyball player and
Speaker 1: a coach. He won gold medals at the Olympics for
Speaker 1: beach and for indoor. He's won medals as a coach
Speaker 1: in beach and indoor. I mean it's phenomenal. And he
Speaker 1: also won in the pro circuit more medals than just
Speaker 1: about anybody. And he also won in NCAA double college.
Speaker 1: This is a is this skilled human with a fundamental
Speaker 1: commitment towards growth and improvement. And he's got great skill,
Speaker 1: great talent and skill layered on top of it. His
Speaker 1: mental game is unprecedented and he loves competition. So I
Speaker 1: had the chance of working with him in the last
Speaker 1: Olympics and he says this to me. He goes, Mike,
Speaker 1: this was like year one of our four years together
Speaker 1: because we're going into the twenty sixteen games. So year
Speaker 1: one of the games he says, and he looks right
Speaker 1: at me and he says, Mike, nobody ever wins a
Speaker 1: gold medal without facing down a double barreled shotgun. And
Speaker 1: I just looked at him, and I'm smiling and like
Speaker 1: inside and I'm just grinning ear to ear, and he goes,
Speaker 1: let's prepare our team for the double barreled shotguns every day.
Speaker 1: I was like, Yeah, that's a fundamental that only comes
Speaker 1: from somebody who understands what it means to get after
Speaker 1: it and embracing like this idea that real challenges are coming.
Speaker 1: And so that's one story I want to share with you.
Speaker 1: The second story I want to share with you is
Speaker 1: that This happens just about every season at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the season, football season, or any season for people,
Speaker 1: is that nobody can do the extraordinary alone. As you
Speaker 1: would recognize, it's too complicated, it's too big, it's too
Speaker 1: it's just too big, you know, to do the extraordinary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we need each other. So what happens pre season
Speaker 1: is that we share this vision, we share this shared
Speaker 1: mission of you know, what we're going to do together hopefully,
Speaker 1: and then we lock arms. We say, okay, let's lock
Speaker 1: our arms here. And when we lock arms, we agree
Speaker 1: that we're going to do this thing together and have
Speaker 1: each other's back. But then at the moment that some
Speaker 1: real stress happens, some real pressure, some consequences perceived or
Speaker 1: real happen. You know what people do that are untrained,
Speaker 1: that unlock their arms and the system phrase, the ecosystem phrase.
Speaker 1: So those that stay locked in embrace a second fundamental
Speaker 1: commitment that we need each other. So if you can
Speaker 1: embrace this idea that challenges are an opportunity to see
Speaker 1: and get some feedback about my ability to be me
Speaker 1: based on my character straints like the tone, the style
Speaker 1: of me, and my mental skills which allow me to
Speaker 1: access my craft. If it's just a feedback loop, that's
Speaker 1: what it is, and you know that you need more
Speaker 1: feedback loops. And the second part is that we need
Speaker 1: to be connected to other people, and so can we
Speaker 1: access our ability to be ourselves in consequential rugg and
Speaker 1: environments at the same time be connected to others. So
Speaker 1: it's just a feedback loop, that's all this is. And
Speaker 1: then the third piece is know the mental skills that
Speaker 1: you need help with. Is it relaxing and being more calm?
Speaker 1: Is it deeper focus? Is it the self chatter? You know,
Speaker 1: the confidence, inner narrative. And there's only a handful of
Speaker 1: mental skills to work on. Optimism control, I'm sorry. Optimism, confidence,
Speaker 1: being calm, deep focus are kind of the big four
Speaker 1: for me. And if you struggle on any one of those,
Speaker 1: you can back into them, and that's kind of how
Speaker 1: it works for me. Oh, you talk a lot about
Speaker 1: having your craft that you're working toward. You feel like
Speaker 1: people need to have a craft to get better. It's
Speaker 1: a good question. It's a really good question. Is what
Speaker 1: is the craft? Well, it's the form of expression, whether
Speaker 1: that craft is parenting or it is finances as a
Speaker 1: CFO or its management of people, you know, as a
Speaker 1: director or leader, or it is a psychologist or an
Speaker 1: athlete is certainly easy to look at, or an artist.
Speaker 1: I think that the craft is our mechanism to express.
Speaker 1: And you say, well, what is Scott barr Kaffman's craft?
Speaker 1: His is certainly ideas and communicating ideas, both in written
Speaker 1: form and verbal form. And I would say the same
Speaker 1: for me, you know, like, and so what is your craft?
Speaker 1: How do you articulate your craft through writing? And I
Speaker 1: mean writing and ideas and through fitness because I love
Speaker 1: the connection to in the mind and the body. Amazing
Speaker 1: mm hmm. It's complicated, isn't it. Yeah, sure, it's amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you get to test out all of these mental skills.
Speaker 1: That's great. I forgot about my body. I forgot I
Speaker 1: was supposed to work my body too. It's it is
Speaker 1: It is definitely the vehicle, isn't it. It's the It's
Speaker 1: the it's the carriage. If you will it for sure?
Speaker 1: Is you? Oh? My pleasure? Yeah, good to meet you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That was really generous of you
Speaker 1: to talk to aspiring Michael Gervais. Oh please, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was fun. Yeah, she's great and I really recommend
Speaker 1: her book and app So let me just end with
Speaker 1: asking you this question. I thought it was a really
Speaker 1: interesting question you asked in your book, and that's how
Speaker 1: do the best let go and trust themselves? It just
Speaker 1: just ties so much of what we're talking about today
Speaker 1: and this, you know, what does confidence mean? What how
Speaker 1: can we just at the end of the day we
Speaker 1: wanted to trust our being? Well, really, what that's about
Speaker 1: is figuring out out in the most credible way. And
Speaker 1: how do you earn credibility is going through hard things, challenges.
Speaker 1: If you will, is that you have the inner skills
Speaker 1: to be able to adjust to the unfolding, unpredictable, the unknown.
Speaker 1: And so that's how you learn to trust yourself. That
Speaker 1: you can say things to yourself, like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I don't want. I don't want suffering. I don't want
Speaker 1: conditions in my life that will trigger suffering. But I
Speaker 1: know that I will figure it out right that I
Speaker 1: know how to be kind to myself, I know how
Speaker 1: to be strong, I know how to be confident, calm
Speaker 1: and focus. Those are the kind of substrate if you will.
Speaker 1: I have a fundamental belief that from an optimistic framework
Speaker 1: that the future is going to work out, and that's
Speaker 1: how we learn to trust ourselves is by going through
Speaker 1: difficult times. It's how we become forged. It's how steel
Speaker 1: becomes forged as well. And so this idea that we're
Speaker 1: going to escape hardship or challenge is a bit naive,
Speaker 1: and so when we run to it, we get more
Speaker 1: skilled at it. And it is one of the things
Speaker 1: that athletes do well is that they are highly skilled
Speaker 1: at being engaged in the unfolding, unpredictable environments, the unknown,
Speaker 1: if you will, because every competition they go into is unknown,
Speaker 1: and so they're actually quite skilled at knowing how to
Speaker 1: trust themselves and better skilled maybe at trusting themselves than others.
Speaker 1: So step one is trust of self. Step two is
Speaker 1: trust of others. So beautiful, Michael, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming on the Psychology Podcast to repeat performer on
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast and for offering everyone you're really tremendous
Speaker 1: wisdom today. Hey Scott, I appreciate your generativity, I appreciate
Speaker 1: what you stand for. I love your book Plural as
Speaker 1: well so and I love our friendship. So thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing me with your community. Thank you. I love
Speaker 1: our friendship too. Thanks for listening to this episode of
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some
Speaker 1: way to something you heard, I encourage you to join
Speaker 1: in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast dot com. Also, please add a rating
Speaker 1: and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying to
Speaker 1: increase our viewership on YouTube. In fact, many of these
Speaker 1: episodes are in video format on YouTube, so you'll definitely
Speaker 1: want to check out that channel. Thanks for being such
Speaker 1: a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in next
Speaker 1: time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.