WEBVTT - Top Russian Journalist on Alexei Navalny 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.556 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.596 --> 0:00:26.636 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.996 --> 0:00:32.716 I'm Noah Feldman. On January seventeen, twenty twenty one, Russian 0:00:32.716 --> 0:00:37.356 politician and opposition leader Alexander Navalni, better known as Alexey, 0:00:37.476 --> 0:00:40.636 was arrested on his re entry to Russia. This was 0:00:40.676 --> 0:00:44.596 his first visit back to Russia after being poisoned months 0:00:44.676 --> 0:00:48.796 before an attempted murder which journalists have linked to present 0:00:48.876 --> 0:00:53.516 Vladimir Putin's intelligence services. A Russian judge ordered Navalni to 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:56.676 spend more than two years in a Russian prison labor colony, 0:00:57.116 --> 0:01:00.076 and his arrests and imprisonment have set off some of 0:01:00.116 --> 0:01:03.756 the widest protests Russia has seen in years, not to 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:08.516 mention a movement for sanctions in the West now, Navalni 0:01:08.596 --> 0:01:11.396 is a complex figure. He is portrayed in the West 0:01:11.476 --> 0:01:15.116 as a staunch advocate of democracy and press freedoms, and 0:01:15.236 --> 0:01:18.236 in many senses he is. Yet it's also true that 0:01:18.276 --> 0:01:21.436 in recent months there's been renewed scrutiny of some of 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:25.636 his nationalist and even xenophobic public comments from about a 0:01:25.636 --> 0:01:29.476 decade ago. Amnesty International decided on the basis of those 0:01:29.476 --> 0:01:33.796 comments to remove his designation as prisoner of conscience, because 0:01:33.836 --> 0:01:35.636 they say you have to not only stand out for 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:40.236 good ideas, but also not express hate to qualify. This 0:01:40.316 --> 0:01:42.996 is a complex and tricky issue, as is the question 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:47.156 of what Navalny's return and the protests mean in Russia. 0:01:47.316 --> 0:01:49.996 To better understand it and to hear more about how 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:53.636 the news is covered by the free Russian press today, 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:56.676 to the extent that it still exists, we decided to 0:01:56.676 --> 0:02:01.556 interview one of Russia's leading journalists. Diana Kachalova is the 0:02:01.716 --> 0:02:06.396 editor in chief of the Saint Petersburg bureau of Novaya Gazetta, 0:02:06.436 --> 0:02:11.356 a Russian newspaper known for its investigative jurnalism. Three decades ago, 0:02:11.476 --> 0:02:14.996 she helps start the first post Soviet independent daily newspaper. 0:02:16.036 --> 0:02:19.196 She carries out her job in a country where independent 0:02:19.556 --> 0:02:24.916 investigative journalism carries real personal danger. She's here to talk 0:02:24.916 --> 0:02:29.636 with us about Navalni and also about the press and 0:02:29.836 --> 0:02:35.156 the meaning of protest for Putin's Russia. Thank you, Diana 0:02:35.236 --> 0:02:38.076 for being here. I want to begin with a question 0:02:38.116 --> 0:02:41.836 that may seem very obvious to you, but for American listeners, 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:44.956 even those who listen to the news carefully is perhaps 0:02:44.996 --> 0:02:49.516 a little less clear, and that is why does Vladimir 0:02:49.556 --> 0:02:53.316 Putin treat Alexey Nvalni as the kind of threat that 0:02:53.356 --> 0:02:56.116 he appears to be treating him as. Why not just 0:02:56.196 --> 0:02:58.436 let him come back to the country and more or 0:02:58.556 --> 0:03:03.036 less ignore him on his arrival in Russia. I think 0:03:03.556 --> 0:03:09.596 Vladimir Putin believes that Russia is absolutely surrounded by enemies. 0:03:10.996 --> 0:03:16.116 And it's not that he just hates him because he 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:20.116 doesn't believe naval No something he absolutely trusts in the 0:03:20.316 --> 0:03:23.996 papers which are put on his table every morning. You know, 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:27.716 the guy does not use Internet. He trusts on the 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:31.476 papers which his secretaries or someone is preparing for him 0:03:31.516 --> 0:03:34.716 and bringing. That's why, that's his picture of reality. And 0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:38.156 he absolutely believes that Russia is surrounded by enemies and 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:41.956 that Navali is one of them and his foreign agent 0:03:42.076 --> 0:03:45.236 and paid by CIA and everything. If someone is attacking you, 0:03:45.476 --> 0:03:49.876 that's because he's an enemy and he wants to destroy 0:03:50.236 --> 0:03:54.636 him and his country. Let's imagine in his worldview Navali 0:03:54.756 --> 0:03:58.476 is a paid CI agent. Does Putting actually worry that 0:03:58.596 --> 0:04:01.316 his own support in the country is so weak that 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:06.076 Navalni could gain substantial number of adherents on the ground. 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:09.116 Is Putting so nervous about his own grip on power. 0:04:09.796 --> 0:04:13.116 You know, I cannot say what's in the head of Puttin. 0:04:13.316 --> 0:04:16.796 I can just tell you a few days ago we 0:04:16.836 --> 0:04:20.076 had in Saint Petersburg, the meeting with our governor of 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:24.796 Saint Petersburg. It is much lower level of deureaucracy. But 0:04:24.916 --> 0:04:28.236 we were talking about the last riots which were in 0:04:28.396 --> 0:04:31.036 Saint Petersburg and in Moscow in the end of January 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:34.796 beginning of February, where a lot of journalists were beaten 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:39.516 and arrested. But his reaction was, maybe there were not 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:42.516 the journalists, maybe there were just pretending to be a journalist. 0:04:42.996 --> 0:04:46.956 His reality and his picture of what's happening in his 0:04:47.116 --> 0:04:51.476 city is absolutely different from what's happening in the streets. 0:04:52.036 --> 0:04:56.076 And when I mentioned that police is beating journalists and 0:04:56.116 --> 0:04:59.076 you're telling this to the guy and he's like, no, 0:04:59.516 --> 0:05:05.396 you're wrong. And I think the problem is that this 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:09.636 is partially Putin's fault, that he surrounded himself with the 0:05:09.716 --> 0:05:15.196 people who are not delivering him the right information. It's 0:05:15.196 --> 0:05:17.916 not like in Stalin times when the people were saying, oh, 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:21.476 you know that Za doesn't know what really happens that 0:05:21.596 --> 0:05:24.436 everyone is in the prisons, everyone is tortured in Gulag, 0:05:24.876 --> 0:05:28.756 and Stalin does not know here is more or less 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:33.796 the same situation because he doesn't understand it from my 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:38.156 point of view, Can I ask Diana you refer just 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:42.516 now to the events of January and February, the public 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:45.836 response to Navali's return to the country and to his arrest. 0:05:46.196 --> 0:05:48.996 Can you say more about what you think really happened, 0:05:49.036 --> 0:05:51.556 and also about whether the people who were turning out 0:05:51.556 --> 0:05:54.836 there were doing so because they really actively support Navali 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:59.596 or because they're frustrated with other aspects of Putin's government, 0:05:59.796 --> 0:06:03.236 or whether they're worried about underlying economic issues. What drew 0:06:03.316 --> 0:06:07.116 people into the streets, What was happening in Moscow, in 0:06:07.156 --> 0:06:10.556 Saint Peter's book was for a long time, because for 0:06:10.596 --> 0:06:13.196 a long time, since two thousand and eleven and twelve, 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:15.636 when there were a lot of protests in Moscow and 0:06:15.676 --> 0:06:19.596 Saint Petersburg, nothing like this happened. There were a lot 0:06:19.636 --> 0:06:24.716 of people, and there were much younger audience, and the 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:29.716 reaction of the state was different from ten years ago. 0:06:29.956 --> 0:06:34.156 It was much more suppressive. It was much more police 0:06:34.556 --> 0:06:39.716 ross Guardia Amon you know, all this enforcement power and 0:06:39.996 --> 0:06:43.436 there were much ruder, there were much more people arrested. 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:46.716 There was like the whole city I'm talking about, Saint 0:06:46.756 --> 0:06:52.156 Petersburg was paralyzed, absolutely paralyzed because they closed most of 0:06:52.156 --> 0:06:54.996 the streets. You cannot go even if you're going to 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:59.156 the theater, cinema anywhere. And what was interesting, it was 0:06:59.316 --> 0:07:04.076 absolutely different atmosphere. I do remember the protests ten years 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:08.476 ago and there was a lot of slogans, a lot 0:07:08.516 --> 0:07:13.076 of humans are a lot of jokes, but these times 0:07:13.836 --> 0:07:18.476 they were kind of almost gloomy atmosphere. And this time 0:07:18.516 --> 0:07:22.556 the people came on the streets to show even not 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:26.356 to support navalny. They wanted to show that they sick, 0:07:26.596 --> 0:07:29.956 they're tide of this and they don't want to be 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:35.036 treated like that. But the atmosphere was kind of on 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:38.756 this protest were kind of gloomy because the people. It 0:07:38.836 --> 0:07:41.756 feels like the people did not have so much to 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:46.956 say anymore. They were just walking and showing that they 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:52.236 hear and they don't like what's going on seen from 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:55.916 the outside. That's really fascinating and of course very sad 0:07:55.956 --> 0:07:59.356 as well. You know, a gloomy protest is one where 0:07:59.516 --> 0:08:03.716 the protesters don't have a realistic expectation that they can 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:07.636 change the underlying state of affairs. And that implies that 0:08:07.676 --> 0:08:12.196 the government efforts to suppress the protests were effective, right 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.756 that if they've communicated to ordinary people who are brave 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:17.756 enough to go into the streets that you're just doing 0:08:17.756 --> 0:08:20.756 this symbolically, it has no chance of succeeding, then that 0:08:20.756 --> 0:08:25.116 would imply that from a purely machiavellian perspective of preserving 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:29.836 his own power, Putin has handled this whole process with 0:08:29.916 --> 0:08:34.316 the return of Navali very successfully. Is that your interpretation? 0:08:34.676 --> 0:08:37.356 It was not necessary to be so cruel, It was 0:08:37.756 --> 0:08:40.476 no need in such a cruelty. But the whole goal 0:08:40.636 --> 0:08:44.476 of this was just to threaten the people who came, 0:08:44.996 --> 0:08:48.196 to threaten the people who were thinking maybe to come, 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:53.636 and to send them the message don't move. If you'll 0:08:53.676 --> 0:08:56.316 not move, maybe you'll be more or less a key. 0:08:56.636 --> 0:08:59.076 And you know, a lot of people were afraid to come. 0:08:59.356 --> 0:09:03.876 You know, in Saint Petersburg, how many people came, ten 0:09:04.036 --> 0:09:08.156 twenteen or maybe twenty five thousand the most. The population 0:09:08.196 --> 0:09:11.156 of the city is fire million. In Moscow it was 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:16.756 the same percent of the population. It's nothing, it's not 0:09:17.076 --> 0:09:20.476 so much, and if you'll ask the majority of people 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:24.116 who were not there, maybe we are thinking that, you know, 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:28.356 these protests are useful, but will not go ourselves. And 0:09:28.396 --> 0:09:33.476 what can these twenty thousand crowd with nothing, nor Rus nothing, 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:36.036 what they can achieve just to show that they don't 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:40.436 like it, and that's all They're helpless, We are helpless. 0:09:40.556 --> 0:09:43.436 What do you think and what do other Russians whom 0:09:43.476 --> 0:09:47.716 you speak to think about the possible effects of sanctions 0:09:48.356 --> 0:09:51.596 placed either on Puttin or on people around him in 0:09:51.636 --> 0:09:54.396 the past and also in the present in a consequence 0:09:54.396 --> 0:09:58.156 of the Navali imprisonment. Do those sanctions seem to you 0:09:58.916 --> 0:10:01.796 meaningful and do they send a message of support? And 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:04.076 will they be likely to have any effect at all 0:10:04.596 --> 0:10:07.276 on the Putten regime or government? Or do you see 0:10:07.316 --> 0:10:10.516 them as rather too a little too late, or empty, 0:10:10.676 --> 0:10:14.516 emptily symbolic and unlikely to affect put You know, we're 0:10:14.556 --> 0:10:18.236 surrounded by sanctions since two thy fourteen, if I'm not mistaken, 0:10:18.316 --> 0:10:20.236 and they're more and more, and I think that people 0:10:20.276 --> 0:10:23.876 are just getting confused. I'm talking about ordinary people. They're 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:26.676 just getting confused which sanctions will were and for what 0:10:26.836 --> 0:10:30.916 particular reason. People are a long time ago confusing who 0:10:31.076 --> 0:10:37.396 is sanctioning award and a message on TV is not 0:10:37.596 --> 0:10:42.156 that America or European Union are sanctioning particular people who 0:10:42.196 --> 0:10:44.676 are involved in naval in a case like you know, 0:10:44.956 --> 0:10:49.956 from investigative committee, from the police, the other you know, 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:53.436 the people who are involved in this are all the time. 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:57.076 On TV there is a send a message that these 0:10:57.076 --> 0:11:03.276 sanctions are against Russia, not against particular people, and a 0:11:03.316 --> 0:11:06.276 lot of people believe in this. You know, there are 0:11:06.276 --> 0:11:09.956 two audiences in Russia, like probably everywhere else. There is 0:11:09.996 --> 0:11:13.636 a TV audience which believes what first, second, and the 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:18.356 third channel is saying, and then there is a Internet audience, 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:25.316 which is more advanced. But I think a big majority 0:11:25.396 --> 0:11:28.716 of the population of Russia is using internet. But if 0:11:28.756 --> 0:11:31.796 you'll see how they're using they're not reading political news. 0:11:32.276 --> 0:11:36.756 They're finding the recipes for cooking, for meeting, for everything 0:11:36.796 --> 0:11:40.516 like this, to send each other flowers electronic one. They're 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:43.556 not reading political news. That's why what they were told 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:48.356 on TV they would believe. That raises a really fascinating 0:11:48.476 --> 0:11:51.916 and important question that I think we in the West 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:53.916 don't have a good understanding of for the most part, 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:56.996 including people who try to follow news about Russia. And 0:11:57.076 --> 0:12:02.476 that is what is the practical reality of press freedom 0:12:03.116 --> 0:12:06.076 in Russia today. I mean, we understand that Russia is 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:08.556 ranked very low under Press Freedom Index. I looked it 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:10.596 up and as of twenty twenty, it was one hundred 0:12:10.636 --> 0:12:13.796 and forty nine out of one hundred and seventy nine countries. 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:17.716 So that's pretty low. But here you are. You your 0:12:17.796 --> 0:12:21.436 paper Novaya Gazetta, does publish I also read online. I 0:12:21.436 --> 0:12:22.916 don't know if this is true that six of your 0:12:22.996 --> 0:12:26.236 journalists were murdered in the past twenty years. You'll tell 0:12:26.236 --> 0:12:29.196 me if that's correct or not. But what is the 0:12:29.276 --> 0:12:32.116 day to day way that you can think about what 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:35.436 press coverage you're allowed to provide, what you're allowed to say, 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:39.116 what will provoke consequences? How do you do your job 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:47.516 every day? The number is correct now about how we're 0:12:47.556 --> 0:12:49.756 doing that's a pretty high threat. That's a that's a 0:12:49.836 --> 0:12:52.156 very high risk position that you're in. Your by definition, 0:12:52.156 --> 0:12:55.516 it extremely a brave person. I can start with a 0:12:55.596 --> 0:12:58.716 kind of joke. In the Soviet Union, and many many 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:02.116 years ago, of course, the Soviet Union was accused that 0:13:02.396 --> 0:13:05.676 the Jews are treated very bad in Soviet Union. Yeah, 0:13:05.876 --> 0:13:09.436 That's why in every organization in a high rank because issues, 0:13:09.476 --> 0:13:15.236 there was at least one very important Jew. And for example, 0:13:15.276 --> 0:13:18.356 in a military in the headquarters of the army, there 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:22.876 was General Dragoonski, the General Dragunski, And when anyone was 0:13:22.916 --> 0:13:25.756 trying to accuse Soviet Union on you know, treating the 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:29.356 Jews bed and not allowing them to get some ceiling 0:13:29.436 --> 0:13:33.396 in their career and everything like this, they were saying, oh, 0:13:33.596 --> 0:13:36.716 what we have General Dragunski, what do you want. We're 0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:39.316 not treating Jews bad. You see how high he is ranked. 0:13:40.396 --> 0:13:46.676 Sometimes I feel like this General Dragunski, nowagas yet exists 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:50.436 as this General Dragunsky to say that what are you 0:13:50.516 --> 0:13:52.956 talking while there is no freedom? There's plenty of freedom 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:56.636 we have that that that that the online they're published. 0:13:57.996 --> 0:14:01.516 The problem is that for a long time it was 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:05.756 a popular number eighty six percent, eighty six percent of 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:08.796 the population who is supporting Putin. I think now there's 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:11.676 number is lower, but there was a lot of jokes 0:14:11.676 --> 0:14:15.236 about this, and it's still high means. But this eighty 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:21.516 six percent, they don't read Novagaiata, they don't listen to 0:14:21.596 --> 0:14:25.836 Etho of Moscow. They are not on a Facebook. They 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:31.036 even not in a telegram. They're in a social media 0:14:31.116 --> 0:14:36.236 called aDNA Klaisniki. Classmates. There is nothing about politics there. 0:14:36.796 --> 0:14:39.796 This is the majority of the population in Russia. And 0:14:39.876 --> 0:14:44.516 the problem of the media kind of like Novagaziata, we 0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:48.236 don't know how to talk with them. We are not 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:51.196 reaching the biggest audience. We are talking with each other. 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:55.236 You know, we can agree or not agree with the 0:14:55.476 --> 0:15:01.676 Navali as a politician, but he is amazing in propaganda, 0:15:01.756 --> 0:15:07.156 in delivering his message. The way how he's putting and 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:10.396 how he's delivering this message is going out of this 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:15.036 circle of elite liberal media. From my point of view, 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:18.516 that's the biggest achievement of what Navalny is doing. That's 0:15:18.516 --> 0:15:21.716 really fascinating because if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're 0:15:21.716 --> 0:15:25.756 saying is that your paper and the other small number 0:15:25.756 --> 0:15:28.316 of papers are essentially what we would call in the 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:33.196 United States tokens like General David Abramovich Dragunski, who was 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:35.476 kind of you're saying, a token, the token Jew whom 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:37.476 people could point to. I just looked him up. I 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:40.396 see him with his twice awarded titled Hero of the 0:15:40.396 --> 0:15:45.516 Soviet Union, with his medals, so your tokens and therefore 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.996 you can be tolerated because you're not seen as posing 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:52.876 a very great threat because not that many people are 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:56.236 listening to the stories that you're telling. But then, what 0:15:56.316 --> 0:15:59.796 made an Aviolei distinctive is that he's a skilled disseminator 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:02.276 of information. So he takes a story that you've already covered, 0:16:02.396 --> 0:16:04.476 and what he did have the effect of getting people 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:06.956 to look up and take notice who might not have 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:12.076 taken notice previously, and that made him a threat. Do 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:14.276 you ever worry that if you're if you started to 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:17.676 reach a broader audience, then you wouldn't be useful tokens anymore, 0:16:17.756 --> 0:16:21.316 and then you would be in danger. Our slogan is 0:16:21.436 --> 0:16:26.756 we're writing about the facts which everyone else is silent about. 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:32.596 And I think for a lot of people, we are 0:16:33.516 --> 0:16:38.676 the last hope. And I think we need to do 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:42.436 the job we are doing daily we cannot not do it. 0:16:43.116 --> 0:16:45.596 One thing that might help me, at least to understand 0:16:45.716 --> 0:16:48.356 how you do it is when you're thinking about covering 0:16:48.396 --> 0:16:52.356 a given story, do you find yourself asking yourself, how 0:16:52.396 --> 0:16:54.716 will the government react to this? Or do you think 0:16:54.716 --> 0:16:58.996 to yourself, our paper is recognized as critical and so 0:16:59.036 --> 0:17:01.636 we can say whatever we want and we don't have 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:04.716 to worry on a minute to minute basis that reporting 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:08.996 the wrong story will land us in trouble. You know, 0:17:09.436 --> 0:17:12.916 if I'll be thinking every time before thinking about the story, 0:17:12.956 --> 0:17:15.676 how the government will react, probably will not publish anything. 0:17:16.076 --> 0:17:21.676 That's why. That's why I think the main concern is 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.756 the story exclusive, is the story interesting? Is that they're 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:30.396 raising a real serious topic what we are doing. They're 0:17:30.676 --> 0:17:35.236 very careful putting the words together, very careful, and I 0:17:35.276 --> 0:17:39.556 think in the last few years I'm spending more time 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:45.396 sometime with our lawyer, reading and trying to find the 0:17:45.476 --> 0:17:48.716 ways how you want to deliver this information. But you 0:17:48.756 --> 0:17:50.996 know that after this you will be in court how 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:54.476 to deliver it, that it will be not like immediate 0:17:54.916 --> 0:17:58.396 case for the court, And I think I spent more 0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:01.876 time with our lawyer than sometimes with our journalists discussing 0:18:01.996 --> 0:18:16.196 that we'll be right back. One of the aspects of 0:18:17.276 --> 0:18:21.116 the coverage of Navalni that has been confusing for lots 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.996 of people watching from the outside is that his own 0:18:25.036 --> 0:18:28.556 politics are not necessarily the ones that people on the 0:18:28.596 --> 0:18:31.316 outside imagine that would be the politics of someone who's 0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:34.396 a critic of Putin, For example, Navalni seems to be 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:39.356 a serious nationalist, and indeed, Amnesty International shocked and surprised 0:18:39.356 --> 0:18:43.036 a lot of people by withdrawing his status as a 0:18:43.076 --> 0:18:46.476 prisoner of conscience in their category on the ground that 0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:49.636 he had in the past said things in a nationalist 0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:53.996 vein that they considered to be offensive or discriminatory. Tell 0:18:54.036 --> 0:18:56.196 us a little bit first about the backstory here. What 0:18:56.476 --> 0:18:59.956 are Navali's political views and where do they fall with 0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:05.036 respect to mainstream Russian opinion on the question of nationalism. 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:13.916 You know, Muslim, anti gastarbeiters, yet guest workers, all that 0:19:13.996 --> 0:19:17.436 kind of stuff. You know, he was never saying, recid 0:19:17.516 --> 0:19:20.356 Le Ruski as I do remember Russia for Russians, but 0:19:20.836 --> 0:19:25.036 I think it was kind of like what the polites. 0:19:25.236 --> 0:19:28.076 You will not say such things in a polite society. Yes, 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:30.916 but it was a long time ago. The people are changing. 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:34.956 In the last few years. He never apologized for what 0:19:35.036 --> 0:19:37.956 he said. He never mentioned this fact, He never said 0:19:37.996 --> 0:19:41.996 that he was wrong. But in the last few years 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:46.356 the way how he talks changed and he never was accused. 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:48.716 In the last years in the same kind of saying. 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:53.236 Did he do his own purpose just you can get 0:19:53.276 --> 0:19:57.716 in his brain right in what he thinks, but probably 0:19:57.716 --> 0:20:01.236 he understood that it's not the correct things to say. 0:20:02.476 --> 0:20:05.876 One of the main accusations of Naval Nay from Kremlin 0:20:06.596 --> 0:20:09.636 is that he doesn't have any suggestions how to lead 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:15.716 country to the future. His program was published and he 0:20:16.276 --> 0:20:20.356 doesn't sound like something outrageous. It's kind of relatively democratic 0:20:20.756 --> 0:20:23.316 program of what he would like to do and how 0:20:23.316 --> 0:20:26.556 he would like to change this country, improving the situation 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:30.516 in you know, in bureaucracy and all this corruption, because 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:32.676 those sound like the issues that most people are most 0:20:32.756 --> 0:20:35.156 bothered by, That the government seems to be pretty corrupt 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:37.436 and spending a lot of money on itself, and that 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:42.276 that affects them on a daily basis. You know, this 0:20:42.396 --> 0:20:47.076 is unfortunately, I think that's not so much true that 0:20:47.116 --> 0:20:50.476 the people are thinking about the corruption on a daily basis. 0:20:50.796 --> 0:20:54.396 If you'll ask what they're bothered about, the corruption will 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:57.436 be not the biggest priority in that What will the 0:20:57.436 --> 0:20:59.476 biggest priority be. What is your sense of what the 0:20:59.476 --> 0:21:04.716 biggest priority is? I think right now will be rising 0:21:04.716 --> 0:21:10.956 the prices of food, quality of medical the quality of 0:21:11.076 --> 0:21:17.116 life in general. The problem is the people understand these 0:21:17.156 --> 0:21:19.996 particular small problems are you know, for example, here is 0:21:20.036 --> 0:21:25.316 a very bad clinic, local clinic, yes, but why it's bad, 0:21:25.316 --> 0:21:29.876 why it's so poor, why there is no modern equipment there. 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:32.676 They don't put it together with the fact that that's 0:21:33.076 --> 0:21:37.636 the because of the corruption, because this money was stolen 0:21:37.756 --> 0:21:45.676 from somewhere. The food prices they're growing like crazy. Even 0:21:45.676 --> 0:21:48.196 on TV they're saying that, you know, this is the 0:21:48.236 --> 0:21:50.796 third of the fourth time when putting is making the 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:55.036 order to stop prices to grow. How you can tell 0:21:55.076 --> 0:21:58.836 the prices not to grow, but why they're growing, that's 0:21:58.876 --> 0:22:03.596 not the people sometime are putting together. You know, for 0:22:03.636 --> 0:22:08.236 a long time it was very funny to watch the 0:22:08.316 --> 0:22:14.516 Russian news because first news was about how everything is 0:22:14.556 --> 0:22:18.276 bad in Ukrainian. Then it was about how everything is 0:22:18.316 --> 0:22:21.676 bad in Europe. Then it was how everything is bad, 0:22:21.796 --> 0:22:25.276 sorry in the United States and somewhere else everywhere is bad. 0:22:25.636 --> 0:22:29.676 Then we're coming the news very modest, how it is 0:22:29.956 --> 0:22:34.596 good somewhere in Russia. The people, if you'll be telling 0:22:34.716 --> 0:22:37.756 them that everything is bad in America, they will believe 0:22:37.796 --> 0:22:41.876 you if you because they were never visited America. If 0:22:41.876 --> 0:22:44.476 you'll be telling them that everything is awful in Europe. 0:22:44.956 --> 0:22:46.996 They will believe you because they were never in Europe. 0:22:47.996 --> 0:22:50.236 But you cannot tell them all the time how good 0:22:50.276 --> 0:22:54.676 it's around them, because these they can check. Oh, they're 0:22:54.716 --> 0:22:57.796 telling me that it's great, and I see that's that's 0:22:57.836 --> 0:23:00.916 not good at all. Tyler, let me ask you a 0:23:01.036 --> 0:23:04.836 last question in light of that rather depressing picture that 0:23:04.916 --> 0:23:08.996 you've you've painted. If people are gradually coming to realize 0:23:10.196 --> 0:23:15.196 that things around them are crumbling, and if you can't 0:23:15.236 --> 0:23:19.276 hide that fact from them, what's the scenario that you 0:23:19.316 --> 0:23:22.196 see emerging in the next five years, in the next 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:25.156 ten years, in the next twenty years in Russia with 0:23:25.196 --> 0:23:28.796 respect to the political structures. Do you see a world 0:23:28.916 --> 0:23:33.756 where over time people become sufficiently unhappy that they seek 0:23:33.796 --> 0:23:37.836 out either a different form of government or different leadership, 0:23:38.236 --> 0:23:40.996 or do you see the Putin regime being so robust 0:23:41.476 --> 0:23:45.436 through its suppression of speech and through its limitation on 0:23:45.476 --> 0:23:49.396 political action, that things could kind of continue along on 0:23:49.436 --> 0:23:52.196 this path going forward, as they after all did for 0:23:52.236 --> 0:23:55.076 a very long time under the Soviet Union. You know, 0:23:55.396 --> 0:24:01.556 unfortunately we don't have the immunization for dictatorship because we 0:24:02.436 --> 0:24:06.876 were living in a Soviet Union and the people were 0:24:07.156 --> 0:24:13.636 accustomed to be absolutely like conformists. And I think the 0:24:13.756 --> 0:24:18.996 conformism is the biggest safeguards for today's put in the 0:24:19.036 --> 0:24:26.556 regime because the people who survived like early nineties, when 0:24:26.636 --> 0:24:29.636 everything now you know what's going on. They're threatening all 0:24:29.676 --> 0:24:32.236 the time on TV. You want it to be like 0:24:32.356 --> 0:24:35.236 in nineties. In nineties it was really bad. There was 0:24:35.756 --> 0:24:38.956 problems with food, problems with any goods and everything like this. 0:24:40.236 --> 0:24:43.716 There was freedom, but there was no supplies. You want 0:24:43.756 --> 0:24:46.556 to be like in nineties, and the people are afraid 0:24:47.476 --> 0:24:50.196 to change something because they afraid that it will be worse. 0:24:50.996 --> 0:24:55.716 And you know, I'm afraid that we'll have to live 0:24:55.916 --> 0:24:58.836 in what we are. I don't know how long, because 0:24:58.876 --> 0:25:02.476 I don't see any reason why it will change in 0:25:02.516 --> 0:25:09.556 the next two three or even maybe more use Right now, 0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:13.996 I don't see any possibilities for any changes. I hope 0:25:13.996 --> 0:25:19.396 I'll be wrong, Hopefully it will change sooner, because this 0:25:19.636 --> 0:25:23.036 tagnation is more and more feels like we're going back 0:25:23.116 --> 0:25:26.916 to what was at the end of seventies early eighties, 0:25:27.356 --> 0:25:32.076 and it's kind of it's kind of sad, kind of said, 0:25:32.116 --> 0:25:35.316 and I think it's kind of depressing because there was 0:25:35.356 --> 0:25:38.756 only months since there were all these protests in January, 0:25:39.276 --> 0:25:42.236 and the society is now already distracted and thinking about 0:25:42.276 --> 0:25:46.676 something else. It was a big I'll use the word 0:25:46.756 --> 0:25:51.436 right again, because it was big, like splash. And then 0:25:51.476 --> 0:25:54.396 the people got distracted and went back to their homes 0:25:54.476 --> 0:26:00.516 and went back to their problems, local ones. But Navalni. 0:26:00.876 --> 0:26:04.676 For Navali, the problem is he said his last speech. 0:26:04.796 --> 0:26:07.756 It was an excellent speech in a court. And now 0:26:07.796 --> 0:26:10.156 he will be quiet for two and a half years 0:26:10.196 --> 0:26:13.476 at least unless they will give him more for something else. 0:26:14.276 --> 0:26:17.356 And two and a half years it's a very long period. 0:26:18.196 --> 0:26:22.796 Ten years ago when there was Sergei ud Altsov, whom 0:26:22.836 --> 0:26:24.996 they put to prison, he was kind of on the 0:26:25.076 --> 0:26:28.316 same level of popularity as Navalni. They put him to 0:26:28.396 --> 0:26:30.796 prison for a few years, and in a few years 0:26:30.836 --> 0:26:33.636 everyone forgot about him. He is free now, but who 0:26:33.676 --> 0:26:36.956 remembers him. Who knows what will happen with Navalni two 0:26:36.996 --> 0:26:40.396 and a half years. I think we now need to 0:26:40.436 --> 0:26:44.916