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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. On January seventeen, twenty twenty one, Russian

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Speaker 1: politician and opposition leader Alexander Navalni, better known as Alexey,

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Speaker 1: was arrested on his re entry to Russia. This was

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Speaker 1: his first visit back to Russia after being poisoned months

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Speaker 1: before an attempted murder which journalists have linked to present

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin's intelligence services. A Russian judge ordered Navalni to

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Speaker 1: spend more than two years in a Russian prison labor colony,

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Speaker 1: and his arrests and imprisonment have set off some of

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Speaker 1: the widest protests Russia has seen in years, not to

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Speaker 1: mention a movement for sanctions in the West now, Navalni

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Speaker 1: is a complex figure. He is portrayed in the West

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Speaker 1: as a staunch advocate of democracy and press freedoms, and

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Speaker 1: in many senses he is. Yet it's also true that

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Speaker 1: in recent months there's been renewed scrutiny of some of

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Speaker 1: his nationalist and even xenophobic public comments from about a

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Speaker 1: decade ago. Amnesty International decided on the basis of those

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Speaker 1: comments to remove his designation as prisoner of conscience, because

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Speaker 1: they say you have to not only stand out for

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Speaker 1: good ideas, but also not express hate to qualify. This

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Speaker 1: is a complex and tricky issue, as is the question

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Speaker 1: of what Navalny's return and the protests mean in Russia.

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Speaker 1: To better understand it and to hear more about how

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Speaker 1: the news is covered by the free Russian press today,

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Speaker 1: to the extent that it still exists, we decided to

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Speaker 1: interview one of Russia's leading journalists. Diana Kachalova is the

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of the Saint Petersburg bureau of Novaya Gazetta,

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Speaker 1: a Russian newspaper known for its investigative jurnalism. Three decades ago,

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Speaker 1: she helps start the first post Soviet independent daily newspaper.

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Speaker 1: She carries out her job in a country where independent

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Speaker 1: investigative journalism carries real personal danger. She's here to talk

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Speaker 1: with us about Navalni and also about the press and

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Speaker 1: the meaning of protest for Putin's Russia. Thank you, Diana

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Speaker 1: for being here. I want to begin with a question

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Speaker 1: that may seem very obvious to you, but for American listeners,

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Speaker 1: even those who listen to the news carefully is perhaps

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Speaker 1: a little less clear, and that is why does Vladimir

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Speaker 1: Putin treat Alexey Nvalni as the kind of threat that

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Speaker 1: he appears to be treating him as. Why not just

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Speaker 1: let him come back to the country and more or

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Speaker 1: less ignore him on his arrival in Russia. I think

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin believes that Russia is absolutely surrounded by enemies.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that he just hates him because he

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Speaker 1: doesn't believe naval No something he absolutely trusts in the

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Speaker 1: papers which are put on his table every morning. You know,

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Speaker 1: the guy does not use Internet. He trusts on the

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Speaker 1: papers which his secretaries or someone is preparing for him

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Speaker 1: and bringing. That's why, that's his picture of reality. And

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Speaker 1: he absolutely believes that Russia is surrounded by enemies and

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Speaker 1: that Navali is one of them and his foreign agent

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Speaker 1: and paid by CIA and everything. If someone is attacking you,

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Speaker 1: that's because he's an enemy and he wants to destroy

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Speaker 1: him and his country. Let's imagine in his worldview Navali

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Speaker 1: is a paid CI agent. Does Putting actually worry that

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Speaker 1: his own support in the country is so weak that

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Speaker 1: Navalni could gain substantial number of adherents on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Is Putting so nervous about his own grip on power.

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Speaker 1: You know, I cannot say what's in the head of Puttin.

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Speaker 1: I can just tell you a few days ago we

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Speaker 1: had in Saint Petersburg, the meeting with our governor of

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Speaker 1: Saint Petersburg. It is much lower level of deureaucracy. But

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the last riots which were in

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Speaker 1: Saint Petersburg and in Moscow in the end of January

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Speaker 1: beginning of February, where a lot of journalists were beaten

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Speaker 1: and arrested. But his reaction was, maybe there were not

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Speaker 1: the journalists, maybe there were just pretending to be a journalist.

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Speaker 1: His reality and his picture of what's happening in his

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Speaker 1: city is absolutely different from what's happening in the streets.

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Speaker 1: And when I mentioned that police is beating journalists and

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Speaker 1: you're telling this to the guy and he's like, no,

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Speaker 1: you're wrong. And I think the problem is that this

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Speaker 1: is partially Putin's fault, that he surrounded himself with the

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Speaker 1: people who are not delivering him the right information. It's

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Speaker 1: not like in Stalin times when the people were saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know that Za doesn't know what really happens that

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Speaker 1: everyone is in the prisons, everyone is tortured in Gulag,

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Speaker 1: and Stalin does not know here is more or less

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Speaker 1: the same situation because he doesn't understand it from my

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Speaker 1: point of view, Can I ask Diana you refer just

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Speaker 1: now to the events of January and February, the public

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Speaker 1: response to Navali's return to the country and to his arrest.

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Speaker 1: Can you say more about what you think really happened,

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Speaker 1: and also about whether the people who were turning out

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Speaker 1: there were doing so because they really actively support Navali

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Speaker 1: or because they're frustrated with other aspects of Putin's government,

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Speaker 1: or whether they're worried about underlying economic issues. What drew

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Speaker 1: people into the streets, What was happening in Moscow, in

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Speaker 1: Saint Peter's book was for a long time, because for

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Speaker 1: a long time, since two thousand and eleven and twelve,

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Speaker 1: when there were a lot of protests in Moscow and

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Speaker 1: Saint Petersburg, nothing like this happened. There were a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, and there were much younger audience, and the

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Speaker 1: reaction of the state was different from ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: It was much more suppressive. It was much more police

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Speaker 1: ross Guardia Amon you know, all this enforcement power and

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Speaker 1: there were much ruder, there were much more people arrested.

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Speaker 1: There was like the whole city I'm talking about, Saint

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Speaker 1: Petersburg was paralyzed, absolutely paralyzed because they closed most of

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Speaker 1: the streets. You cannot go even if you're going to

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Speaker 1: the theater, cinema anywhere. And what was interesting, it was

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Speaker 1: absolutely different atmosphere. I do remember the protests ten years

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Speaker 1: ago and there was a lot of slogans, a lot

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Speaker 1: of humans are a lot of jokes, but these times

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Speaker 1: they were kind of almost gloomy atmosphere. And this time

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Speaker 1: the people came on the streets to show even not

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Speaker 1: to support navalny. They wanted to show that they sick,

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Speaker 1: they're tide of this and they don't want to be

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Speaker 1: treated like that. But the atmosphere was kind of on

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Speaker 1: this protest were kind of gloomy because the people. It

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Speaker 1: feels like the people did not have so much to

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Speaker 1: say anymore. They were just walking and showing that they

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Speaker 1: hear and they don't like what's going on seen from

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Speaker 1: the outside. That's really fascinating and of course very sad

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Speaker 1: as well. You know, a gloomy protest is one where

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Speaker 1: the protesters don't have a realistic expectation that they can

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Speaker 1: change the underlying state of affairs. And that implies that

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Speaker 1: the government efforts to suppress the protests were effective, right

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Speaker 1: that if they've communicated to ordinary people who are brave

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Speaker 1: enough to go into the streets that you're just doing

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Speaker 1: this symbolically, it has no chance of succeeding, then that

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Speaker 1: would imply that from a purely machiavellian perspective of preserving

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Speaker 1: his own power, Putin has handled this whole process with

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Speaker 1: the return of Navali very successfully. Is that your interpretation?

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Speaker 1: It was not necessary to be so cruel, It was

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Speaker 1: no need in such a cruelty. But the whole goal

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Speaker 1: of this was just to threaten the people who came,

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Speaker 1: to threaten the people who were thinking maybe to come,

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Speaker 1: and to send them the message don't move. If you'll

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Speaker 1: not move, maybe you'll be more or less a key.

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Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of people were afraid to come.

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Speaker 1: You know, in Saint Petersburg, how many people came, ten

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Speaker 1: twenteen or maybe twenty five thousand the most. The population

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Speaker 1: of the city is fire million. In Moscow it was

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Speaker 1: the same percent of the population. It's nothing, it's not

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Speaker 1: so much, and if you'll ask the majority of people

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Speaker 1: who were not there, maybe we are thinking that, you know,

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Speaker 1: these protests are useful, but will not go ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: what can these twenty thousand crowd with nothing, nor Rus nothing,

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Speaker 1: what they can achieve just to show that they don't

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Speaker 1: like it, and that's all They're helpless, We are helpless.

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Speaker 1: What do you think and what do other Russians whom

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Speaker 1: you speak to think about the possible effects of sanctions

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Speaker 1: placed either on Puttin or on people around him in

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Speaker 1: the past and also in the present in a consequence

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Speaker 1: of the Navali imprisonment. Do those sanctions seem to you

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Speaker 1: meaningful and do they send a message of support? And

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Speaker 1: will they be likely to have any effect at all

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Speaker 1: on the Putten regime or government? Or do you see

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Speaker 1: them as rather too a little too late, or empty,

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Speaker 1: emptily symbolic and unlikely to affect put You know, we're

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Speaker 1: surrounded by sanctions since two thy fourteen, if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 1: and they're more and more, and I think that people

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Speaker 1: are just getting confused. I'm talking about ordinary people. They're

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Speaker 1: just getting confused which sanctions will were and for what

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Speaker 1: particular reason. People are a long time ago confusing who

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Speaker 1: is sanctioning award and a message on TV is not

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Speaker 1: that America or European Union are sanctioning particular people who

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Speaker 1: are involved in naval in a case like you know,

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Speaker 1: from investigative committee, from the police, the other you know,

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Speaker 1: the people who are involved in this are all the time.

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Speaker 1: On TV there is a send a message that these

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Speaker 1: sanctions are against Russia, not against particular people, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people believe in this. You know, there are

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Speaker 1: two audiences in Russia, like probably everywhere else. There is

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Speaker 1: a TV audience which believes what first, second, and the

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Speaker 1: third channel is saying, and then there is a Internet audience,

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Speaker 1: which is more advanced. But I think a big majority

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Speaker 1: of the population of Russia is using internet. But if

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Speaker 1: you'll see how they're using they're not reading political news.

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Speaker 1: They're finding the recipes for cooking, for meeting, for everything

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Speaker 1: like this, to send each other flowers electronic one. They're

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Speaker 1: not reading political news. That's why what they were told

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Speaker 1: on TV they would believe. That raises a really fascinating

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Speaker 1: and important question that I think we in the West

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Speaker 1: don't have a good understanding of for the most part,

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Speaker 1: including people who try to follow news about Russia. And

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Speaker 1: that is what is the practical reality of press freedom

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Speaker 1: in Russia today. I mean, we understand that Russia is

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Speaker 1: ranked very low under Press Freedom Index. I looked it

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Speaker 1: up and as of twenty twenty, it was one hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty nine out of one hundred and seventy nine countries.

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Speaker 1: So that's pretty low. But here you are. You your

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Speaker 1: paper Novaya Gazetta, does publish I also read online. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is true that six of your

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Speaker 1: journalists were murdered in the past twenty years. You'll tell

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Speaker 1: me if that's correct or not. But what is the

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Speaker 1: day to day way that you can think about what

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Speaker 1: press coverage you're allowed to provide, what you're allowed to say,

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Speaker 1: what will provoke consequences? How do you do your job

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Speaker 1: every day? The number is correct now about how we're

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Speaker 1: doing that's a pretty high threat. That's a that's a

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Speaker 1: very high risk position that you're in. Your by definition,

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Speaker 1: it extremely a brave person. I can start with a

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Speaker 1: kind of joke. In the Soviet Union, and many many

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Speaker 1: years ago, of course, the Soviet Union was accused that

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Speaker 1: the Jews are treated very bad in Soviet Union. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: That's why in every organization in a high rank because issues,

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Speaker 1: there was at least one very important Jew. And for example,

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Speaker 1: in a military in the headquarters of the army, there

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Speaker 1: was General Dragoonski, the General Dragunski, And when anyone was

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Speaker 1: trying to accuse Soviet Union on you know, treating the

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Speaker 1: Jews bed and not allowing them to get some ceiling

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Speaker 1: in their career and everything like this, they were saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: what we have General Dragunski, what do you want. We're

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Speaker 1: not treating Jews bad. You see how high he is ranked.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like this General Dragunski, nowagas yet exists

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Speaker 1: as this General Dragunsky to say that what are you

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Speaker 1: talking while there is no freedom? There's plenty of freedom

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Speaker 1: we have that that that that the online they're published.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that for a long time it was

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Speaker 1: a popular number eighty six percent, eighty six percent of

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Speaker 1: the population who is supporting Putin. I think now there's

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Speaker 1: number is lower, but there was a lot of jokes

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Speaker 1: about this, and it's still high means. But this eighty

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Speaker 1: six percent, they don't read Novagaiata, they don't listen to

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Speaker 1: Etho of Moscow. They are not on a Facebook. They

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Speaker 1: even not in a telegram. They're in a social media

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Speaker 1: called aDNA Klaisniki. Classmates. There is nothing about politics there.

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Speaker 1: This is the majority of the population in Russia. And

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Speaker 1: the problem of the media kind of like Novagaziata, we

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Speaker 1: don't know how to talk with them. We are not

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Speaker 1: reaching the biggest audience. We are talking with each other.

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Speaker 1: You know, we can agree or not agree with the

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Speaker 1: Navali as a politician, but he is amazing in propaganda,

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Speaker 1: in delivering his message. The way how he's putting and

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Speaker 1: how he's delivering this message is going out of this

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Speaker 1: circle of elite liberal media. From my point of view,

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Speaker 1: that's the biggest achievement of what Navalny is doing. That's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating because if I'm understanding you correctly, what you're

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Speaker 1: saying is that your paper and the other small number

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Speaker 1: of papers are essentially what we would call in the

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Speaker 1: United States tokens like General David Abramovich Dragunski, who was

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Speaker 1: kind of you're saying, a token, the token Jew whom

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Speaker 1: people could point to. I just looked him up. I

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Speaker 1: see him with his twice awarded titled Hero of the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union, with his medals, so your tokens and therefore

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Speaker 1: you can be tolerated because you're not seen as posing

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Speaker 1: a very great threat because not that many people are

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Speaker 1: listening to the stories that you're telling. But then, what

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Speaker 1: made an Aviolei distinctive is that he's a skilled disseminator

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Speaker 1: of information. So he takes a story that you've already covered,

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Speaker 1: and what he did have the effect of getting people

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Speaker 1: to look up and take notice who might not have

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Speaker 1: taken notice previously, and that made him a threat. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever worry that if you're if you started to

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Speaker 1: reach a broader audience, then you wouldn't be useful tokens anymore,

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Speaker 1: and then you would be in danger. Our slogan is

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Speaker 1: we're writing about the facts which everyone else is silent about.

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Speaker 1: And I think for a lot of people, we are

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Speaker 1: the last hope. And I think we need to do

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Speaker 1: the job we are doing daily we cannot not do it.

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Speaker 1: One thing that might help me, at least to understand

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Speaker 1: how you do it is when you're thinking about covering

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Speaker 1: a given story, do you find yourself asking yourself, how

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Speaker 1: will the government react to this? Or do you think

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Speaker 1: to yourself, our paper is recognized as critical and so

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Speaker 1: we can say whatever we want and we don't have

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Speaker 1: to worry on a minute to minute basis that reporting

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Speaker 1: the wrong story will land us in trouble. You know,

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Speaker 1: if I'll be thinking every time before thinking about the story,

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Speaker 1: how the government will react, probably will not publish anything.

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Speaker 1: That's why. That's why I think the main concern is

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Speaker 1: the story exclusive, is the story interesting? Is that they're

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Speaker 1: raising a real serious topic what we are doing. They're

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Speaker 1: very careful putting the words together, very careful, and I

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Speaker 1: think in the last few years I'm spending more time

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Speaker 1: sometime with our lawyer, reading and trying to find the

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Speaker 1: ways how you want to deliver this information. But you

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Speaker 1: know that after this you will be in court how

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Speaker 1: to deliver it, that it will be not like immediate

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Speaker 1: case for the court, And I think I spent more

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Speaker 1: time with our lawyer than sometimes with our journalists discussing

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Speaker 1: that we'll be right back. One of the aspects of

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Speaker 1: the coverage of Navalni that has been confusing for lots

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Speaker 1: of people watching from the outside is that his own

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Speaker 1: politics are not necessarily the ones that people on the

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Speaker 1: outside imagine that would be the politics of someone who's

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Speaker 1: a critic of Putin, For example, Navalni seems to be

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Speaker 1: a serious nationalist, and indeed, Amnesty International shocked and surprised

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Speaker 1: a lot of people by withdrawing his status as a

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Speaker 1: prisoner of conscience in their category on the ground that

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Speaker 1: he had in the past said things in a nationalist

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Speaker 1: vein that they considered to be offensive or discriminatory. Tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit first about the backstory here. What

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Speaker 1: are Navali's political views and where do they fall with

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Speaker 1: respect to mainstream Russian opinion on the question of nationalism.

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Speaker 1: You know, Muslim, anti gastarbeiters, yet guest workers, all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You know, he was never saying, recid

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Speaker 1: Le Ruski as I do remember Russia for Russians, but

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Speaker 1: I think it was kind of like what the polites.

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Speaker 1: You will not say such things in a polite society. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but it was a long time ago. The people are changing.

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Speaker 1: In the last few years. He never apologized for what

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Speaker 1: he said. He never mentioned this fact, He never said

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Speaker 1: that he was wrong. But in the last few years

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Speaker 1: the way how he talks changed and he never was accused.

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Speaker 1: In the last years in the same kind of saying.

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Speaker 1: Did he do his own purpose just you can get

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Speaker 1: in his brain right in what he thinks, but probably

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Speaker 1: he understood that it's not the correct things to say.

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Speaker 1: One of the main accusations of Naval Nay from Kremlin

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Speaker 1: is that he doesn't have any suggestions how to lead

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Speaker 1: country to the future. His program was published and he

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound like something outrageous. It's kind of relatively democratic

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Speaker 1: program of what he would like to do and how

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Speaker 1: he would like to change this country, improving the situation

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Speaker 1: in you know, in bureaucracy and all this corruption, because

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Speaker 1: those sound like the issues that most people are most

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Speaker 1: bothered by, That the government seems to be pretty corrupt

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Speaker 1: and spending a lot of money on itself, and that

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Speaker 1: that affects them on a daily basis. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is unfortunately, I think that's not so much true that

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Speaker 1: the people are thinking about the corruption on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: If you'll ask what they're bothered about, the corruption will

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Speaker 1: be not the biggest priority in that What will the

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Speaker 1: biggest priority be. What is your sense of what the

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Speaker 1: biggest priority is? I think right now will be rising

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Speaker 1: the prices of food, quality of medical the quality of

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Speaker 1: life in general. The problem is the people understand these

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Speaker 1: particular small problems are you know, for example, here is

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Speaker 1: a very bad clinic, local clinic, yes, but why it's bad,

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Speaker 1: why it's so poor, why there is no modern equipment there.

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Speaker 1: They don't put it together with the fact that that's

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Speaker 1: the because of the corruption, because this money was stolen

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Speaker 1: from somewhere. The food prices they're growing like crazy. Even

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Speaker 1: on TV they're saying that, you know, this is the

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Speaker 1: third of the fourth time when putting is making the

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Speaker 1: order to stop prices to grow. How you can tell

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Speaker 1: the prices not to grow, but why they're growing, that's

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Speaker 1: not the people sometime are putting together. You know, for

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Speaker 1: a long time it was very funny to watch the

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Speaker 1: Russian news because first news was about how everything is

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Speaker 1: bad in Ukrainian. Then it was about how everything is

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Speaker 1: bad in Europe. Then it was how everything is bad,

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Speaker 1: sorry in the United States and somewhere else everywhere is bad.

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Speaker 1: Then we're coming the news very modest, how it is

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Speaker 1: good somewhere in Russia. The people, if you'll be telling

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Speaker 1: them that everything is bad in America, they will believe

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Speaker 1: you if you because they were never visited America. If

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Speaker 1: you'll be telling them that everything is awful in Europe.

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Speaker 1: They will believe you because they were never in Europe.

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Speaker 1: But you cannot tell them all the time how good

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Speaker 1: it's around them, because these they can check. Oh, they're

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Speaker 1: telling me that it's great, and I see that's that's

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Speaker 1: not good at all. Tyler, let me ask you a

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Speaker 1: last question in light of that rather depressing picture that

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Speaker 1: you've you've painted. If people are gradually coming to realize

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Speaker 1: that things around them are crumbling, and if you can't

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Speaker 1: hide that fact from them, what's the scenario that you

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Speaker 1: see emerging in the next five years, in the next

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Speaker 1: ten years, in the next twenty years in Russia with

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Speaker 1: respect to the political structures. Do you see a world

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Speaker 1: where over time people become sufficiently unhappy that they seek

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Speaker 1: out either a different form of government or different leadership,

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Speaker 1: or do you see the Putin regime being so robust

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Speaker 1: through its suppression of speech and through its limitation on

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Speaker 1: political action, that things could kind of continue along on

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Speaker 1: this path going forward, as they after all did for

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Speaker 1: a very long time under the Soviet Union. You know,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately we don't have the immunization for dictatorship because we

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Speaker 1: were living in a Soviet Union and the people were

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Speaker 1: accustomed to be absolutely like conformists. And I think the

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Speaker 1: conformism is the biggest safeguards for today's put in the

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Speaker 1: regime because the people who survived like early nineties, when

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Speaker 1: everything now you know what's going on. They're threatening all

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Speaker 1: the time on TV. You want it to be like

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Speaker 1: in nineties. In nineties it was really bad. There was

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Speaker 1: problems with food, problems with any goods and everything like this.

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Speaker 1: There was freedom, but there was no supplies. You want

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Speaker 1: to be like in nineties, and the people are afraid

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Speaker 1: to change something because they afraid that it will be worse.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm afraid that we'll have to live

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Speaker 1: in what we are. I don't know how long, because

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Speaker 1: I don't see any reason why it will change in

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Speaker 1: the next two three or even maybe more use Right now,

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Speaker 1: I don't see any possibilities for any changes. I hope

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Speaker 1: I'll be wrong, Hopefully it will change sooner, because this

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Speaker 1: tagnation is more and more feels like we're going back

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Speaker 1: to what was at the end of seventies early eighties,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of it's kind of sad, kind of said,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of depressing because there was

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Speaker 1: only months since there were all these protests in January,

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Speaker 1: and the society is now already distracted and thinking about

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Speaker 1: something else. It was a big I'll use the word

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Speaker 1: right again, because it was big, like splash. And then

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Speaker 1: the people got distracted and went back to their homes

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Speaker 1: and went back to their problems, local ones. But Navalni.

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Speaker 1: For Navali, the problem is he said his last speech.

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Speaker 1: It was an excellent speech in a court. And now

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Speaker 1: he will be quiet for two and a half years

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Speaker 1: at least unless they will give him more for something else.

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Speaker 1: And two and a half years it's a very long period.

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Speaker 1: Ten years ago when there was Sergei ud Altsov, whom

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Speaker 1: they put to prison, he was kind of on the

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Speaker 1: same level of popularity as Navalni. They put him to

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Speaker 1: prison for a few years, and in a few years

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Speaker 1: everyone forgot about him. He is free now, but who

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Speaker 1: remembers him. Who knows what will happen with Navalni two

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Speaker 1: and a half years. I think we now need to

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Speaker 1: talk not about him in particular, but about his legacy.

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Speaker 1: He is alive and I hope he'll live a long

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Speaker 1: and happy life, but he will be out of the

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Speaker 1: political landscape for at least two and a half years,

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Speaker 1: maybe even longer, and we need to understand how to

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Speaker 1: keep this atmosphere and how to deliver the message which

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Speaker 1: he was delivering kind of great to the people, that

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Speaker 1: they will understand that the country need the changes. Fanna,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. This is incredibly helpful and really

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Speaker 1: really fascinating. I want to express my own admiration for

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Speaker 1: the very hard work you're putting in every day at

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Speaker 1: significant personal risk to get the news out. You know,

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Speaker 1: we in the United States have had challenges to press

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Speaker 1: and they're serious and need to be taken seriously, but

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Speaker 1: they pale compared to what you're dealing with on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis. I really want to thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, bye. I learned a huge amount from

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Speaker 1: listening to Diana, and I don't know about you, but

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Speaker 1: my feelings over the course of our conversation alternated between

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Speaker 1: feeling moved and impressed by her bravery, the bravery of

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Speaker 1: her colleagues, and the bravery of people who went to

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Speaker 1: the streets to protest the Putin regime, and feeling dejected

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Speaker 1: and depressed about what Diana sees as the rather limited

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Speaker 1: prospects for meaningful change in the near future. In Russia.

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Speaker 1: Protests that arose after Navalny's revelations about one of Putin's

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Speaker 1: palaces were the largest that we've seen in years, and

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Speaker 1: they reflect, Diana thinks, real genuine public dissatisfaction with the

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Speaker 1: way the government is doing its job and with the

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Speaker 1: extent of corruption that exists in the government. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, Diana was quick to add that most people

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Speaker 1: in Russia don't spend their time thinking about systematic corruption.

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Speaker 1: They think about the limitations and their quality of life

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Speaker 1: and the problems in their economy, much like people do

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Speaker 1: everywhere else in the world. Similarly, when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the status of the press, I was moved and impressed

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Speaker 1: by the way that Diana describes her role and that

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Speaker 1: of her colleagues in reporting the truth and continuing to

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Speaker 1: do so no matter what the consequences might be. Yet

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Speaker 1: I was dispirited by her observation that most people in

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Speaker 1: the public don't bother to listen to the news that

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Speaker 1: she reports, and her own honest self assessment in which

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Speaker 1: she had compared the status of the free Russian media

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Speaker 1: to that of a token Russian Jewish general in the

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Speaker 1: senior ranks of the Soviet military. My ultimate takeaway from

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Speaker 1: the conversation is that those alternating feelings of being inspired

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Speaker 1: and being depressed are what happens when you get the

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00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:49,556
Speaker 1: truth from somebody doing her job under very difficult circumstances. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: Diana would not do what she does if she did

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Speaker 1: not believe that it had a purpose and a goal,

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Speaker 1: and that purpose and goal went beyond just telling the

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Speaker 1: truth but also extended to making permanent change in Russia.

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Speaker 1: Here's hoping that her aspirations are as accurate as her

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Speaker 1: investigative reporting tries to be. Until the next time I

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Speaker 1: speak to you, be careful, be safe, and be well.

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Speaker 1: Deep background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our

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00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:24,636
Speaker 1: producer is Mo laboord our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and

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00:30:24,676 --> 00:30:28,516
Speaker 1: our shore runner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from

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00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:32,836
Speaker 1: noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks

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00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:36,556
Speaker 1: to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Cott, Heather Faine,

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00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 1: Carl mcniori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You

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00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:43,996
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I

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00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:46,436
Speaker 1: also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can

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00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:50,596
Speaker 1: find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's

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Speaker 1: original slate of podcasts, go to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and if you liked what you heard today, please write

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Speaker 1: a review or tell a friend. This is deep background