1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: I'm Peter Panagor and in nineteen eighty in the Rocky 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: Mountains in Canada, while ice clamming, I died. Coming back 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: revolutionized my understanding of myself, radically changing me, shifting my 6 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: understanding of the universe and every human being and everything here. 7 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: And I've spent my life trying to find what I 8 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: had become when I had died. 9 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again, a podcast that showcases miraculous account 10 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people his lives were 11 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first hand 12 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death. 13 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories 14 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. Please 15 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: keep in mind these stories are true and maybe triggering 16 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: for some listener, and discretion is advised. 17 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 2: I grew up outs out of Boston. West of Boston 18 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: that I was raised simultaneously in two churches, Roman Catholic 19 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: and Greek Orthodox, which I've quickly deduced were in opposition 20 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: to each other, which left me wondering about why one 21 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: claimed the truth and the other claimed the truth that 22 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: both claimed the other was wrong. So I had this 23 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: initial religious conflict that I lived pretty much. Every year 24 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: celebrated two separate easters. One was the real Easter. No, no, 25 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: this one's. 26 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: The real Easter. 27 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: So I was sort of set up for questioning religion. 28 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 3: As a child. 29 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: I had a mystical experience when I was five, my 30 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: first one, and I had a series of them. I 31 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: kept them to myself. I learned young not to talk 32 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: about them because they were misinterpreted and misunderstood. Even as 33 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: a five year old, I understood that, but that also 34 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: left me with this deep connection to the divine, who, 35 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: in my experience, wasn't at all like the one that 36 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: was talked about in the church. It was an entity 37 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: of pure love and light and welcome, but also vast 38 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: beyond my imagination's capacity to understand. When I was in 39 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: high school, during this very tumultuous period in my family, 40 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: I became slightly suicidal, and I decided one day that 41 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: since I couldn't actually take my life, we take some LSD. 42 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: It led to this experience where I was in the 43 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 2: woods on the snow beneath a beautiful blue sky, and 44 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: the divine presence began to speak through everything, every molecule 45 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: and tree and root and plant and sell of me, 46 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: and it was saying the very biblical I am, I 47 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: am the easiness of all that there is. And it 48 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 2: was such an intense experience of the end of duality, 49 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: this unity of all existence, that it changed me. I 50 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: had a family that had some trouble. My sister, Andrea, 51 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: was four years older than me. As I grew up, 52 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: we became closer, and by the time I reached junior 53 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: high she was the person in the family that I trusted. 54 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: By the time I turned fourteen, my sister ran away 55 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: from home, but from my family's perspective, she vanished. It's 56 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: a long, sortied tale of grief that never healed and 57 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: ongoing family decline of healthy dynamics. So by the time 58 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: my junior year came around, I was ready to get 59 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: out of Boston and go west. So I decided to 60 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: go on exchange to Montana State University. I went to 61 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: the outdoor club, which I was a member of, and 62 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: found on the outside bulletin board a fellow who had 63 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: planned a trip to go up to British Columbia and 64 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: Alberta to do a ten day snow caving ice climbing expedition. 65 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: I had grown up as a boy Scout, and I 66 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: was such a boy Scout nerd. I stayed until I 67 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: was two years past everybody else so that I could 68 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: continue camping, and which led me to a lot of 69 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: backpacking in wilderness. And I was on the National Ski 70 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: Patrol because of Boy Scouts, was working at Bridger Bowl 71 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: and Montana as a volunteer, and so when this trip 72 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: came up, I thought, let's do this. We met and 73 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: we discussed it and we took a little trip to 74 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: test each other out. We had complimentary skills, and so 75 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: we went. So he went about getting his gear together, 76 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: which involved making purchases, and for me it meant borrowing 77 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: and renting what I could find. It's a world famous 78 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: climb called Lower Weeping Wall north of bamf in Alberta, Canada. 79 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: The immensity of the Canadian Rockies divorce the American Rocky 80 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: Mountains because of their sheerness and their size and their 81 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: coldness and the wilderness of them. They are just hundreds 82 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: of miles of majestic, awe inspiring, most beautiful mountains I 83 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: have ever seen in my life. Ever, by the time 84 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: we reached the climb that morning, a whole bunch of 85 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: other teams were already climbing. There was about ten feet 86 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: of snow on the ground, and by the time we arrived, 87 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: all these other teams had begun this half day climb, 88 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: maybe a whole day climb. It's about five or six 89 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: hundred feet. We got there after sun up. We planned 90 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: to get off before nightfall like everybody else, but my 91 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: climb was slower. I talked Tim into believing that I 92 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: could make the climb with a hammer in one hand 93 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: and an axe in the other rather than two axes. 94 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: Problem with that is that not only does the axe 95 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 2: have a significantly longer reach on each swing, which means 96 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 2: that instead of mincing along your taking strides, I could 97 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: use the hammer to climb, but I could never hang 98 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: on it like I could on an axe. An axe 99 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: has a strap midway up the shaft that you can 100 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: put your hand through, and once you set the axe 101 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: at its forty five degree angle ish, you can let 102 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 2: go of the handle and my whole arm and shoulder 103 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: could rest with the hammer. 104 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: That was not the case. 105 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: I had to grip at the entire time, so my 106 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: swing was shorter with it, and I had to use 107 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: extra strength to hold onto it for the entire climb. 108 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: By the time we. 109 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: Reached three quarters of the way up, some of the 110 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: teams had already descended and left. One of the things 111 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: about ice climbing it's unlike backpacking or hiking, is that 112 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: you can't turn around and go back the way you came. 113 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: If you're on a trail somewhere and the weather turns 114 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: or you get tired, you can turn and walk back 115 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: down the way you came up. But ice climbing and 116 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: rock climbing. 117 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: That's not really possible. 118 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: There are roots of ascent and descent. We couldn't turn 119 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: around and descend the ice as we climbed. We had 120 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: to continue to go up in order to follow the 121 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: route down, but I couldn't speed any faster. Not only 122 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: was my swing shorter, but I was exhausted from having 123 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: to to the hammer. I had to use my arm 124 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: that had the hammer in it, and that meant that 125 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,119 Speaker 2: this grip exhausted my forearm, which significantly slowed our time. 126 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: So by the time a couple hours before sunset, I already. 127 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: Knew that we were in a grave situation. 128 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: By the time I reached the top of the climb, 129 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: the sun set, and as the sun set, the temperature 130 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: dropped about thirty degrees in an instant and violent shivers 131 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: overtook my body and overtook Tim's body, And we were 132 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: five six hundred feet up on a sheer cliff of ice, 133 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: and there was nobody to rescue us, and we didn't 134 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: have sleeping bags or a stove. It was a day climb. 135 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: We had eaten all our food, we'd drunk all our water. 136 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: Fortunately for us, there was ice we could suck on 137 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: to keep our hustles hydrated. But I was a skinny 138 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: twenty year old with no extra consumable fat on me, 139 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: and the shivers. The shivers started sucking down my energy 140 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: as soon as they started, and as the temperature dropped, 141 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: I was expending more energy in order to keep my 142 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: body warm, which was shortening the possibility that I would 143 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: have enough energy to make the descent in the dark. 144 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: So as we sat there, we tried to talk, but 145 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: the thing about these shivers was clattering my tongue, and 146 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: my tongue was getting bitten as I spoke, which complicated everything. 147 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: And Tim hauled up the rope mighty fast, but in 148 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: his haste mislaid it. It became a huge knot. I 149 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: had to take off my gloves to untangle the knot 150 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: in the starlight, which began frostbite. And we decided that 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: we had to move that the only chance we had 152 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: was to fight our way down on ice on crampons 153 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 2: in the dark, rope together to a tree, and this 154 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: tree was. 155 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: The repel spot. 156 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: We're supposed to take a piece of nylon webbing and 157 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 2: tie it in a square knot. We're supposed to put 158 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: it around the tree, put the rope through the nylon tube, 159 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: and then descend on the rope and then just slide 160 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: that rope right down to us. But one of the 161 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: things that happens with extreme cold is that it begins 162 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: to encourage poor decision making. So we made a bad decision. 163 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: We decided that the value of the nylon tubing was important. 164 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: Tim didn't want to waste the money, so we both 165 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: agreed to throw the rope around the tree and descend, 166 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: And the result of that is the rope froze. 167 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: To the tree. 168 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: So now we're down some hundred and fifty feet below 169 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: it on the ledge the size of two boardroom tables, 170 00:10:54,440 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: and snow up to our knees. Our feet were on fire, 171 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: my hands were on fire, My face was on fire. 172 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 3: Cold is this burn? 173 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: And we lost our coordination, both of us, very coordinated people, couldn't. 174 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 3: The muscles themselves. 175 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: Were freezing, making movement difficult. And so Tim came over 176 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: and we both pulled on the rope, and the rope 177 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 2: stayed stuck with all of our weight on it. And 178 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: so we're knowing how dangerous our situation was and using 179 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: our willpower to squish down our fear. And there was 180 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: no way out of the situation. We couldn't go down, 181 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: no rope, but Tim decided he could go up. Tim 182 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: knew this not called a persic hitch, and he tied 183 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: it to the rope, one on the right side, one 184 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: on the left side, with these huge long loops. And 185 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: the thing about this particular hitch is when you slide 186 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: it up the line, it has very little friction, but 187 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: as soon as you apply attention to it, it locks 188 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 2: in place at some outrageous number like ninety six or 189 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: ninety seven percent friction. So he put one foot into 190 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: the loop on the right and one foot into the 191 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: loop on the left, and I took the rope and 192 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: I wrapped it around my waist and I lay in 193 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: the snow and I wound the rope around myself to 194 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: try to make it taunt vertically, because the only way 195 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: we were going to get out of this was he 196 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: was going to ascend back up what we came down 197 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: without safety. So this is super dangerous. And I could 198 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: see the beauty of the Starlit sky and that gave 199 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: us enough light to see. And you might think it 200 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: was crazy for me to lie in the snow, but 201 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: snow is actually an insulator, so I was warmer in 202 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: the snow than I was in the air. And as 203 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: I lay there, I suddenly heard him yell fall a hang, 204 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: and in the next second. 205 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: Or two he landed on me. 206 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: Apparently hadn't fallen very far, but the rope came down 207 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: with him. His foot was tangled in the thin line 208 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: that he was using to ascend with and it pulled 209 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: the whole rope down. So now we had the rope 210 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: and he was unhurt, and we felt excited, and we 211 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: coiled up the rope and down the road came a vehicle. 212 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: And this vehicle turns out to have been the warden, 213 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: and he pulled into the parking lot across the street, 214 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: flashed his lights. We jumped up and down and waved 215 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: our arms. He flashed his lights. We knew he saw us. 216 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: We were heartened by this. Whenever you go into a 217 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: World Inness area, you sign into a log, you say 218 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: where you're going in and when you expect to come out, 219 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: and we signed in, but we didn't sign out, so 220 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: he came looking for us. We made the next traverse 221 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 2: feeling better. But I had this transition happen. This deeply 222 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: mammalion survivals switch flipped inside my brain, way down deep inside, 223 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: and suddenly I had this animalistic need to survive, and 224 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: this animalistic need to survive superseded my own will power 225 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: by a thousand magnitude. I still was afraid, but suddenly 226 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: I had this a super capacity, this ancient supercapacity for 227 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: my own survival. And even though my brain was becoming 228 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: confused from the cold, it provided me with a sharper 229 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: attention to my situation. So we made this traverse, and 230 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: we propelled down this rocky crag, and now I was, 231 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: for the first time all night safe, and we looked 232 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: down into the parking lot, and the warden was there, 233 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 2: but seeing us in this situation, now we wave, he 234 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: can see us where one repel up being sometime way 235 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: half or midnight. He left. 236 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: Thinking that we were going. 237 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: To be safe in a few minutes, which is what 238 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: we thought. I'm frostpitten, blisters, my nose, my cheeks, my chin, 239 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: my toes, my feet stopped hurting, which is a bad sign. 240 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: And meanwhile, I know how our hypothermia is advancing, because 241 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,119 Speaker 2: I had been on this ski patrol and trained to understand, 242 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: so I was pretty aware. So I took off my 243 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: gloves and I took the rope, which was kind of 244 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: figurated through my locking carabineers, and I tied one end 245 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: to my harness around my waist. I took the other 246 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: end and I tossed it wide out around this corner 247 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: that led to that crag that we had descended in 248 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: the shadow, and I pulled the rope and I didn't 249 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: pull it six inches before some where up above it jammed. 250 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: And the more I pulled on that, the tighter the 251 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: bind became, and the less slack pulled. It was stuck 252 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: and jammed, and I couldn't pull it out. And now 253 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: we are alone, and Tim can't help me pull the rope. 254 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: There's not much slack where I am enough for me 255 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: and being tied to my waist, and he's ten feet away. 256 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: And we couldn't ascend back up because it was rock 257 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: and not ice. We have crampons on and we don't 258 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: have the other side. 259 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: Of the rope. 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: We got half a rope. Hypothermia continued to advance, but 261 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: I got to this place in my thinking that I 262 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: understood that we were not getting out of this. I 263 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: couldn't go up, that couldn't go down. The temperature continued 264 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: to drop, the hypothermia continued to advance, my energy reserves 265 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: continue to I had no fuel, no food, no water 266 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: now and I accepted my death. I just suddenly surrendered. 267 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 2: And as I did this peace came to me. 268 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 3: And I started thinking. 269 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: About my parents and the loss of my sister and 270 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: how it had caused them so much ongoing, never ending suffering. 271 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, they didn't want me to 272 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: go on this trip, and now I'm going to die 273 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: and it's going to destroy them, but there's nothing I 274 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: can do about it. And then I started thinking about God, 275 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: not the god of my cultural Christianity, but the divine 276 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: beings that through my childhood I had encountered, and I 277 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: knew that the being there, And so I un zipped 278 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: my coat, which happens to the hypothermic people hastening the cold, 279 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: and I began to fall asleep, like a stage curtain 280 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: dropping in a darkened theater, a boom blackness, and I 281 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: would collapse and smack my shoulder and my helmeted head 282 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: on the granite and startle awake and stand and pull 283 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: on the rope which never budged, but I wasn't gonna 284 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: give up trying. And then I stood up this one 285 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 2: time after falling asleep, and there was this big black 286 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: circle around my peripheral vision and it began to collapse, 287 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: and I was confused, and I looked around and I 288 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 2: saw tim and I saw the mountain, and that it 289 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: continued to collapse, and I was thinking, am I falling asleep? 290 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: And then it went to blackness, and then I disappeared. 291 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: All of my pain was gone, the mountain was gone, 292 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: and I had this sense that I was out of 293 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 2: my body, but I still had my brain working. I 294 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: was still thinking, and in front of me there was 295 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: this sudden vast expanse of darkness, size of the universe, 296 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: and I was wondering what is going on? And then 297 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: at the distance, a single light appeared like a single 298 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: are and rushed toward me. 299 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 3: It filled my vision. 300 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: And it communicated to me telepathically but not in language. 301 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: You're coming with me. I'm taking you. And I thought 302 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: to myself, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know what's 303 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: going on. I'm staying right where I am. And I 304 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: reached inside myself for this will power that I'd had 305 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: that night to resist, but there was no resistance possible, as. 306 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: If it had a hand. It reached to me and 307 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: took me. 308 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: And everything I'm saying is metaphor because there were no 309 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 2: things there. I had no brain there, there was no language, 310 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: just information. I was inside of this orb of light, 311 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: and it was feeding me with the love and comfort 312 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: as we whisked back up the direction it had come, 313 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: and I had this understanding that this gigantic orb was 314 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: a portion of the divine I experienced this being before. 315 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: I had zero fear, the same entity that had come 316 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: to me as a child. 317 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: And then we. 318 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: Reached the edge of this universe size darkness, and suddenly 319 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: I was this gigantic orb, I was this being of light, 320 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 2: and I knew myself. I knew this is who I. 321 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 3: Had been forever. 322 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: I've always been this, and I had never really been Peter. 323 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: And I was content and unafraid and a hole and healed, 324 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: and way far in the distance, I could see this 325 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 2: darkness that was deeper darkness. The deeper darkness opened and 326 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: light poured out, like a gigantic waterfall ten thousand times 327 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 2: bigger than me. Every color of every single star I 328 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: had seen that night ultraviolet rays, colors that I can't 329 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: even explain by the billions, and it radiated. 330 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 4: Love. 331 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 2: And as I touched it with my being, it entered 332 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: into me. It opened me up, and it split me 333 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: open and flowed inside of me, and I inflated. It 334 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: was everything there was. And then it looked at my 335 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: human life, the one I had just lived, which apparently 336 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: I carried with me every moment of my life. The 337 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: divine had lived with me. And then I saw inside 338 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: myself some darknesses. 339 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: I tried to. 340 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: Hide them, And as I tried to hide them, I 341 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: entered into a life review of hell, where I experienced 342 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: from the interior of each individual person that who I 343 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: had hurt in my life. I experienced their emotions and 344 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: their thoughts and their reactions. For every single action of 345 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: pain giving that I had done in my entire life, 346 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 2: I was all these other people, because the divine is 347 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: all of us. And simultaneously I was also previous Peter, 348 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: experiencing all of my jealousies and angers and envies. And 349 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: as I had these simultaneous experiences, the voice kept speaking 350 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: to me. I love you, I know you, I have 351 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: meant you, this is you. I love you as you are. 352 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 2: I loved you and everything you did. But I, in 353 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: my smaller nature, judged myself in comparison to this unlimited purity. 354 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: But it kept showing me love and mercy and welcome, 355 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: and it showed me that there's this radical equality of 356 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: our human brokenness. And not only had I brought with 357 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: me all of the pain I had given in my life, 358 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: I brought with me all the love I had been 359 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: given in my life and all the love I had 360 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 2: given away. And it was so much more because the 361 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: love that I had lived in my life its source 362 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: was the unlimited, abundant love. My countenance changed, and all 363 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 2: of my previous pin was dematerialized. I was whole and 364 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 2: well and beloved in a bliss that is beyond my 365 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: ability to say, but lingers with me every day. And 366 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 2: then I was somehow reduced again, and I said, with 367 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 2: our language, am I dead? And the voice said, yes, 368 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: you're dead, Welcome home. I said, well, I can see 369 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: my parents and they're suffering. What about them? And the 370 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 2: divine swept me across this illuminated darkness, this vast womb, 371 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: and to this edge of heaven, and my attention was 372 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: brought way far back to the origin of our universe, 373 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: and in the origin of our universe was in the now, 374 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: and out of this deep, infinite darkness, that this infinity 375 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: in which I could not penetrate, out of this was 376 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: pouring light, and this pouring of light was weaving itself 377 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: into our existent universe, so that I could see that 378 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: everything that was darkness and light in our universe was 379 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: woven out of the light itself. And then it spoke 380 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: to me. It spoke to me from its own infinity, 381 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 2: and it showed me the vast love it was is, 382 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: and that this vast love was creating all of these universes, 383 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: and that all of the love that was in every 384 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: single one of these universes, and all of the love 385 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: that was in all of our universe spread wide, was 386 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: all aimed right at me, and that I was the 387 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: most beloved being, and that all of this unconditional, unlimited 388 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: love was how much I was beloved, and I'd always 389 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: been beloved and will be beloved, and because of this love, 390 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 2: all is was and will be well eternally. And then 391 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 2: my vision was brought to our galaxy, down to our 392 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: solar system, down to our planet, and I could see 393 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: Earth in live time, living as it was, with half 394 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: the planet in shadow and half in light, and I 395 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: could see every human being all at once, and every 396 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 2: single person, no exceptions was made from this source of light, 397 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 2: but the whole planet was covered with this fog, and 398 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: I could see that no one could see the light 399 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: inside of anyone else, and I understood that that same 400 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: infinite love aimed at me in the same quality and 401 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: quantity aimed at every single human being. And then I 402 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 2: saw my parents' faces living a life without me, and 403 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: I saw all of the pain and suffering they would 404 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: have if I stayed where I was, And then I 405 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 2: saw the life they would live with me if I 406 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: went home again, and They both had suffering in them, 407 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 2: but the former had destruction of my parents. And I 408 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 2: understood that in the moment of their death, they would 409 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: be where I was, and that all for them will 410 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: be well. But I could see their suffering, and so 411 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: I said, so I have to stay. Can I go back? 412 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: And the voice said it's your time to come, but yes, 413 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: you can go back. 414 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 3: I said, I. 415 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: Choose to live my life, and the voice said, you 416 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: won't live your life. And as I went, I was 417 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 2: compressed into a more material form, and I was carried 418 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: down this very long tunnel. There were a million doorways, 419 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: all of them probabilities of the life I could live. 420 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: But I traveled down this tunnel, passed all these doorways 421 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: to the end of it, and there was a body 422 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: on a cliff and someone bent over, but they weren't me. 423 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: I didn't know them. And then this angelic being took 424 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: me like a light sword, like a light saber, and 425 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: stabbed the body and opened a wound and forced me inside. 426 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: And I was inside this thing. And then I felt 427 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: this hum as this brain came back online and kind 428 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: of wound itself back up again slowly, and all of 429 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: my pain returned as the cold came back, and the 430 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: life pain came back, the confinement of being human. I 431 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: knew that I wasn't, but I was trapped by my 432 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: own choice. And the sound returned, yelling, screaming and decipherable, 433 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: don't die, don't die, don't die, don't die. And I 434 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: open my eyes and there's Tim. I don't know him, 435 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: I don't even know myself, and he you were dead, 436 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: you were dead. And he pulls me up and he's 437 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,479 Speaker 2: talking and he's talking, and I have no idea who 438 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: he is or where I am. All I know is 439 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: where I am not. I'm not where I was, and 440 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: where I was was infinitely greater and better than here. 441 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: And after a time I came to understand, I'm Peter, 442 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: I'm ice clamming. This is Tim, and he's talking and 443 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: he's crying. If you die, I was going to die. 444 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 2: And then he got me to pull the rope, which 445 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: came free, and we descended, and we self treated for hypothermia, 446 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: because by that time I was back enough to myself 447 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: to know how to do that. And from that point on, 448 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: my previous life had ended. I was a new person 449 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 2: who looked like the same person, who spoke like the 450 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: same person, but my perception of myself and of the 451 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: world around me was entirely and permanently changed. We climbed 452 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: in the car and we heated ourselves up with the 453 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: engine and brought our temperature back up, and we drove away. 454 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 2: The dominant perspective that I came back with is that 455 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: the largest part of me remains above me and outside 456 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: of me, and is me and sees through this physical 457 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: body and feels through its fingertips, tastes through its mouth. 458 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 2: It it's not me in this black and white, flickering 459 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: world where light is pouring through. And I did not 460 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: say a word to Tim about what happened to me. 461 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 2: I couldn't. I didn't understand it myself. So we got 462 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: to Calgary and we're hungry, and we coated this pizza place. 463 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: It's all neon and it's bright and there's music loud, 464 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: and everything in it to me is crass and ugly, 465 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: and it's not just It was the epitome of this 466 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: broken frailty that is all things around me. 467 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 3: And I remember. 468 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: Picking up this piece of pizza and thinking to myself, 469 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: this body needs fuel. When I was dead, I didn't 470 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: need fuel. I was fuel. 471 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: It was bizarre. 472 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 2: I had to masticate it with my teeth and feel 473 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: its strange, jelatinous ready juice and swallow it down my throat. 474 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: It's like, what is the crudity of this thing? And 475 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: every movement I made was this strange, alien experience of wow, 476 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: this is so so animal, not terrible, just crudd And 477 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: then I was stuck in this thing. I couldn't leave, 478 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: and I didn't understand where I had been. I didn't 479 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: have any language to process my experience. 480 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: There's no language on the other side. 481 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: That's the first problem. And the second was I didn't 482 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: have any constructs to think about it. I could only 483 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: feel it and remember it with a portion of myself 484 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: that wasn't even human. I could remember through my own 485 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: soul what I I had lost. From then on, every 486 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: single day of my life, I live above myself. I 487 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 2: for decades, for decades, masked, pretending that that wasn't what 488 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 2: I was experiencing, although it was with every single breath 489 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 2: of my life I was. 490 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: Near death. 491 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 2: Experience was basically unheard of. This is back in the 492 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 2: early eighties. I had no context for this, but I 493 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 2: had my meditation life, and I found that in that 494 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: space of my quietude, I could touch back into the divine. 495 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: It became a doorway for me wherein I could see 496 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 2: the light itself. So I began to practice my meditation 497 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and more and more. When I go 498 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: back to UMass Amherst, I studied my pantomime and my 499 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: mind teachers. Teach teacher was Marcel Marceau, who taught hatha 500 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: yoga as a mechanism for learning mime. And in this 501 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: mime class, one day he had us find our chi. 502 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: I felt it as we moved it through these yoga moves, 503 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: this prana and so he said, who here's felt this energy? 504 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: And I'm like me, nobody else. So he called me 505 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: up to the front. He had me kneel and close 506 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 2: my eyes and put my palms up, and he said, 507 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 2: now what do you feel? I said, I feel pin 508 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: wheels and he said open your eyes. I opened my 509 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 2: eyes and his hands were an inch from mine doing 510 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 2: these things pin wheels, and the class dropped jaw so 511 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: much so that two of the people in the class 512 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 2: who were evangelical Christians left the class, never to return, 513 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: saying it was the devil. 514 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 3: And so around that time. 515 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: I began to practice Crea yoga and Kundlini yoga in 516 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 2: addition to my. 517 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 3: Centering prayer practice. 518 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 2: And what I found is that it anchored me in 519 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 2: the world, and I read everything that I could lay 520 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: my hands on. Went on this retreat to this monastery, 521 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: met this monk whose light was radiant from him, and 522 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: decided that I was either going to be a monk 523 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: or go to Divinity School to study mysticism. And so 524 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: I dropped my family plan, which was get my graduate 525 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: degree in architecture, joined my dad's firm, and abandoned all 526 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 2: of that and go study mysticism, which gave me the 527 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: tools to think about what had happened to me. I 528 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: kept this a secret for close to twenty years because 529 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: I know how crazy this is. I know how crazy 530 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 2: it is, and I had a family at kids and 531 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: needed a job and didn't want to risk my kid's livelihood. 532 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: I told my wife on the day after we got married, 533 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: which was unfair to her, but she already had witnessed 534 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of crazy things in my life. My 535 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: relationship with animals, for one thing. Wildlife wild animals like me. 536 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 3: Seals have come. 537 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: Up to me, I have chickadeese land on my finger. 538 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 2: I have a menagerie of animal friends who live outside 539 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: my door, who come every day, who come onto my 540 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: desk when I'm working. 541 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 3: I've just got this. 542 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 2: They are me, I am them. It's every single human 543 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 2: being I have ever met has a radiance to them. Everybody, 544 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: all the time, never goes away. Eventually, I was a 545 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: minister and a church. I was hiding out in the 546 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: church as a minister so that I could have a 547 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: way to earn a living while I continued my interior 548 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 2: journey and service was part of my job, part of 549 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 2: my job as a soul come back here to help people. 550 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: And there was this time period in our congregation where 551 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: there was a big embezzlement that lasted decades and it 552 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: caused great pain. The entire church had turned against me, 553 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: but in the end we caught the embezzalor. But they 554 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: came to me one day before I climbed into the 555 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 2: pulpit and said, you must have had a lot of 556 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 2: faith to put up with us for what we did 557 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: to you over all these years. And so I climbed 558 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 2: in the pulpit that morning, realizing that I now trusted 559 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: the congregation that I could tell them the truth that 560 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 2: I was actually not a Christian. I was not a believer. 561 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 2: I hadn't been a believer since the day that I died. 562 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: And I told them my story to a silent, unstirring 563 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 2: congregation who listened to the whole of it and understood 564 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: that the strength of my courage came not from me 565 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: or my belief, but from my understanding that I'm always 566 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: known by the all knowwhere, and that I could finally 567 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 2: tell the truth and stop pretending to be who I wasn't. 568 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 2: It was leaking out all over me, was being shown 569 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 2: to everybody. It's just that I never named it. And 570 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: by naming it, I could finally be unmasked. And within 571 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: days in my town, five or six people came to me. 572 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 2: They had the same secret, and so my loneliness began 573 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 2: to end. I'll stick around here now and have as 574 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: much fun as I possibly can till I'm called home 575 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 2: for good. 576 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 3: But I no longer prayed to die. 577 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 2: I found my way to be integrated here by integrating 578 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: back to where I from, where I came my path here. 579 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 2: Most people strive to find heaven here. I had the 580 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 2: opposite problem. 581 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 3: I had to. 582 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 2: Strive to find here here my integration was the opposite way, 583 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: and and now I'm still continuing on my path. It's 584 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: not it's not an end the day. The day I 585 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: die is the day it ends in this life. And 586 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: that death isn't like a People talk about it like 587 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: a stepping from one world to the next, a doorway, 588 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: which is kind of true, but it's more like an 589 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 2: evolution from an amoeba to a human being. The leap 590 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: is ginormous, it is, It is so other that it's 591 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 2: all I want. 592 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 5: Welcome back to a live again. 593 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: Joining me for a conversation about today's story are our producers. 594 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: Nick Takoski is an award winning screenwriter and podcast producer. 595 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: He hosts the philanthropic competitive reading series Write Club Atlanta. 596 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: He's also one of the editors of the Write Club 597 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: based literary magazine Tender Blood Sport. Also joining today is 598 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: Kate Sweeney. Kate is an award winning writer, journalist, and 599 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: podcast producer known for her deep explorations of culture, history, 600 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: and social phenomenon. Her book American Afterlife, which examines the 601 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 1: rituals and traditions surrounding death in the United States, won. 602 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 5: The Georgia author of the Year Award. She has also 603 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 5: received multiple Edward R. Murrow and Associated Press awards for 604 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 5: her public radio work, with her stories featured on NPR 605 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 5: program's Late Morning Edition and All Things Considered. Britt Die 606 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 5: is an award winning writer and story producer. He's a 607 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 5: founding member of Atlanta's Whole World Theater and the Atlanta 608 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 5: Dailies Film Project. Brent's work has appeared in national and 609 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 5: regional publications including Pace Magazine and The Bitter sub And 610 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 5: I'm your host, Dan Bush. 611 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 6: Hey, it's Kate, Hey, It's Brent, Hi, It's Nack. 612 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 4: We all sounds so happy. The Twilight Society is back again. 613 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 3: Nice. 614 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 6: That made me feel warmer when we met though at 615 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 6: Waller's Yet the stories you selected. I was touched by 616 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 6: the stories that you chose. 617 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 7: I just feel so lucky that these people reached out 618 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 7: to me, and I feel very, you know, moved by 619 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 7: the fact that that they put their trust in this 620 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 7: project because these are some of the most usually the 621 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 7: most vulnerable stories. 622 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 3: Of their lives. 623 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 4: So in this episode we hear Peter Panagort's story. 624 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: I love hearing his story because he's an every day 625 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: He reminds me of myself but then he goes on 626 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: to experience things beyond a horrific situation he was trapped 627 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: in his He actually did have a near death experience 628 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: account in a classic sort of textbook sense, where he 629 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: actually experienced things and phenomenon beyond the veil, as it were. 630 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 7: I found this to be really interesting because what happens 631 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 7: to him is so beautiful. You know, he experienced this warmth, 632 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 7: this light, beyond anything any of us could ever even imagine. 633 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 7: And rather than this narrative that some of us are 634 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 7: familiar with of sort of coming back and feeling like, oh, 635 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 7: life is beautiful, instead of sort of simplifying things and 636 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 7: helping him be simply seen his purpose. Now, Peter's experience 637 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 7: complicates things for him. Now the world seems kind of 638 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 7: lesser than right, and it always does. It feels like 639 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 7: the shadow world to him. Eating when he first comes back, 640 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 7: he tells that story about eating the piece of pizza 641 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 7: and kind of cramming it into his mouth and feeling like, oh, 642 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 7: the human body is weird. What's going on? And it's 643 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 7: not so much disgust as it is, it's just this 644 00:43:52,840 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 7: overwhelming strangeness of mortality and of bodies and sustenance and fuel. Yeah, like, oh, 645 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 7: we didn't need this, but this body needs this. And 646 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 7: so that's his task to come to grips with life 647 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 7: an a mortal body. And I just find that to 648 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 7: be fascinating. You know, Like he's already survived like this 649 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 7: crazy ice climbing, you know, God incident. 650 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 8: There's something that's maybe humbling about it, but also something 651 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 8: that's just inherently absurd. 652 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 3: It's like it's. 653 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 8: This this cosmic joke on us that like we are 654 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 8: beings of light walking around in decaying steak. 655 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 4: You know. 656 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 7: Yeah, and I love that. It's ultimately this really human 657 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 7: sense of impatience that is kind of threatens to be 658 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 7: his undoing, right, yeah, you know, and what keeps him 659 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 7: from fully experiencing life even though he's already had this 660 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 7: like amazing experience. It's like, oh, now it's impatience, and 661 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 7: and it's this sort of it's like Buddhist mindfulness that 662 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 7: ultimately brings him to be able to let go of 663 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 7: his desires. I would love to be able to get 664 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 7: to that point. But I mean this has been a 665 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 7: lifelong practice for him, years and years and years of 666 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 7: meditating every day for hours, and you know, reading all 667 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 7: of these texts and living this very spiritual life, and 668 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 7: only recently has he been able to reach this sense 669 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 7: of letting go and having this turning point. 670 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 8: Yeah, and I think something that, something else that struck 671 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,919 Speaker 8: me is just instead of these near death experiences where 672 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 8: suddenly you find what you've always been looking for, this 673 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 8: did not come anywhere near that. It just it mirrored 674 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 8: sort of the reality that we all live in, which 675 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 8: is like, if you want to find enlightenment, you have 676 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 8: to work, and kind of it kind of sucks. Spiritual 677 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 8: enlightenment is a practice and not just something that like 678 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,959 Speaker 8: you don't get one epiphany and that's it, you know. 679 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's you right, Like, yes, I love that. 680 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 8: Yes, you strive toward it. 681 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 4: There is no magic pill, my dude. 682 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly. And he got a taste and then his 683 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 8: experience was like if you want to get back to 684 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 8: that point, you have to climb the mountain again. 685 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: There is an intriguing sort of aspect to a lot 686 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,280 Speaker 1: of these stories where there are events, coincidences, if you will, 687 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: that happen in concert with these near death experiences, and 688 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: it does trick out your rational mind and you start 689 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: to really wonder, like well, is there something at work here? 690 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: Is there some force at play here. I've had experiences 691 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: in my life with people that I've lost where there 692 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: are events surrounding the death of the loved one that 693 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: are hard to it's hard to go that, you know, 694 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: that is a coincidence, it's hard to write it off. 695 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: And then even beyond that, for me to impose my 696 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: sort of philosophical beliefs on that experience and to say no, 697 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: I need facts, I need proof. Sorry, you know who 698 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: am I to do that? Because the unknown is so 699 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: vast and so incredible that I have to give myself 700 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: some liberty and go, well, maybe it's okay not to know. 701 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 7: Right right, And I'll say, that's sort of like what 702 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,359 Speaker 7: you're talking about is sort of happened to me in 703 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,360 Speaker 7: working on this podcast, because I certainly do have my 704 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 7: own set of beliefs. I am a natural born, I'm 705 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 7: a skeptic. I don't know. There could be a lot 706 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 7: at work that I'm not aware of, And basically I'm 707 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,439 Speaker 7: not going to sit here and and be a jerk 708 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 7: about it. I'm not gonna you know, we always tell 709 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,760 Speaker 7: our kid like, don't be don't don't burst other people's 710 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 7: balloons just because you happen to maybe know some facts 711 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 7: about Santa Claus that your cousin doesn't know. You know, 712 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 7: we're not gonna talk about that because that's bursting her bubble. 713 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 4: Don't yuck my um, don't yuck my yum. 714 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 7: I'm not gonna. Yeah, And there are things that there 715 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 7: are things that we don't know. 716 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: I had, and I did, I was, I was, I 717 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: was my family growing my parents. My dad was a chemist, 718 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 1: and he had a falling out with his church at 719 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: a young age because he experienced some things that you 720 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: described as racism, and he said, well, I'll never darken 721 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,439 Speaker 1: the doors of this place again if what you believe 722 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: leaves you to this sort of hatred, and experiencing that 723 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: during the Civil rights era in the South, that plus 724 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: his sort of interest in the mechanics of the universe 725 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: through chemistry and physical chemistry in particular, led him to 726 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: sort of abandon his upbringing with Christianity and he became atheist, 727 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: and my mom as well, and so they were like, 728 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: literally my grandparents thought me and my brother were going 729 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: to hell because we did not go to church. At 730 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: some point we stopped going. So I grew up with 731 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: sort of an atheist or at least a skeptical background, 732 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 1: where facts and proof is the you know, faith is 733 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: dangerous and facts and proof are the only thing that 734 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: that you should ever tune into. So when these things 735 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: started to happen, these sort of what I would say 736 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: felt like miraculous events, incidences around when my dear friend 737 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 1: and she was my lover for three years, we were 738 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: living together, and when she passed away in a horrible 739 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: car accident. There were events leading up to that that were, 740 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: for no better word, miraculous. Like her, the things that 741 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 1: she was doing that seemed to be in preparation for 742 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: this event. She had hair down to her waist and 743 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: she cut it off. The day before the event. She 744 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: went home to say goodbye to us, her father, who 745 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: was a Vietnam vet and who was just an alcoholic, 746 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: and she was like, I'm not going. 747 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 4: To enable you anymore. 748 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to move on with my life and I'm 749 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 1: no longer gonna you know, So she said goodbye to him. 750 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: That's why she drove down there before the accident happened. 751 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: These things make me go, well, what who am I? 752 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, how arrogant do I need to be? In 753 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: my atheism to balk at that and to say no, 754 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 1: I need facts, I need proof. Why can't I at 755 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: some point in my heart and in my soul just 756 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: accept it and go, you know, okay, you know, and 757 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: let myself believe in some weird way, to let myself 758 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: have some faith in that, because why not? 759 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 4: Is it dangerous to have faith in that? 760 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 3: Why not? 761 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,799 Speaker 4: Anyway, That's that's sort of my own journey. But it's 762 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 4: fascinating to me. 763 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that maybe want to find 764 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,879 Speaker 1: out more from other people who almost die. 765 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 4: That's what I was gonna ask you. 766 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 7: I mean, hard lines can be so damaging no matter 767 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 7: what the hard line is. 768 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, I really think that one of the most important 769 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 8: things that we can kind of come to grips with 770 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 8: with ourselves is just I don't fucking know, I don't 771 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 8: fucking know, you know, And I think that to be 772 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,799 Speaker 8: okay with that and yeah, and just to kind of 773 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 8: go like, all right, man, that's what that's what it is. 774 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,919 Speaker 8: I don't know why it is, it just is, and 775 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 8: you know, I'll just keep moving through the world. 776 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 6: It seems funny to me as a Christian. It seems 777 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 6: funny to me that so many of my fellow believers 778 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,920 Speaker 6: get hung up on questions of evolution, questions of the afterlife, 779 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,320 Speaker 6: and I'm like, I think the point of the religion 780 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 6: is the example that Jesus gave us, you know, to 781 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 6: love unconditionally, to serve the poor, to welcome the state. 782 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 6: Those are the messages. I don't think how the world 783 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 6: came about, or how many days it took for the 784 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,359 Speaker 6: world to form, or whether there was dinosaurs, or what 785 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 6: happens to us after our die really has to do 786 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,479 Speaker 6: with the teaching you. So I think if we open 787 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 6: ourselves to not knowing, and we don't know till we 788 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 6: cross over, it opens a space where we can share. 789 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,840 Speaker 4: Just the wonder of just being alive. 790 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,440 Speaker 1: Next time on alive again, we hear the story of 791 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: Manuel BeO Gisbert. In June of twenty twenty, Manuel was 792 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,960 Speaker 1: kidnapped and tortured near Mexico City. His survival has led 793 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: him to document the stories of families affected by cartel 794 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: and government violence. 795 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 9: I was kidnapped by a drunker tilling the outskirts of 796 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 9: Mexico City. 797 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 3: I feel that torture really changes you. It really changes 798 00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 3: how you. 799 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 9: Buried your own dignity and I'm jerown sense of self. 800 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 9: It never leaves you ever. Since I was released, I 801 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:13,840 Speaker 9: began documenting the lives of the many families of the 802 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 9: people who were also kidnapped and there in return. This 803 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 9: is my story and the story of how Violince has 804 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 9: corrupted our country, families and thousands of lives. 805 00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent die 806 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:38,280 Speaker 1: Nicholas Dakoski, and Lauren Vogelba. Music by Ben Lovett, additional 807 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: music by Alexander Rodriguez. Our executive producers are Matthew Frederick 808 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for additional 809 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,680 Speaker 1: production support. Our studio engineers are Rima el Keli and 810 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: Noames Griffin. Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhart Slovitchka, Brent Dye, 811 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben Lovett and Alexander Rodriguez. 812 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Dan Bush. Thanks to Peter Panagor for 813 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,399 Speaker 1: sharing his incredible story. For more about Peter, his work 814 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: and his books, visit Peter Panagor. 815 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 4: Dot Love That's p E t E R. 816 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: P A n A g O r E dot l 817 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 1: o v E Alive Again is a production of iHeart 818 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: Radio and Psychopia Pictures. If you have a transformative near 819 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,320 Speaker 1: death experience to share, we'd love to hear your story. 820 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: Please email us at Alive Again Project at gmail dot com. 821 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: That's a l i v e A g A I 822 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,120 Speaker 1: N P R O j e c T at gmail 823 00:53:37,160 --> 00:54:02,480 Speaker 1: dot com.