WEBVTT - From the Vault: Animals Throwing Stuff, Part 3 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:07.880 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:08.720 name is Robert. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.560 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time to 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:13.720 go into the vault for an older episode of the show. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.680 This one originally published January tenth, twenty twenty three, and 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.200 it is part three in our series on throwing behavior 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.040 in non human animals and what else is there to say? 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:37.200 Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.559 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:42.199 is Robert. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.760 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:49.640 three in our series I'm throwing behavior in animals, especially 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.360 non human animals, but we'll be talking about throwing of 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.440 the human variety some today now. In previous episodes, we 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.240 discussed a paper documenting a kind of throwing or what 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.040 appeared to be a kind of throwing in octopuses in Australia, 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.039 which use their siphons to blast clouds of silt in 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:10.880 their neighbors' faces when they get a little too close. 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.920 We discussed the ability of elephants to throw with their trunks, 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.520 and we talked about mongooses doing brutal reverse granny shots 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.399 to bypass the defenses of armored millipedes and, as Mick 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:28.200 Jagger would say, get the meat. Today, our discussion continues 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:29.840 with a very important consideration. 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.440 Well, when I told my wife that this was the 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.320 topic we were going to be covering, the question she asked, goes, well, 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.960 what about Airbud? Are you going to talk about Airbud? 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:41.880 Handle the air Bud. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.280 Question a very important facet of this issue. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.600 Yes, Airbud is, of course a nineteen ninety seven motion 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.960 picture about a dog that plays competitive basketball based on 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.960 the At this point, I think classic sports movie trope. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.640 There's nothing in the rule book that says a blank 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.720 can't play whatever the sport happens to be, And you 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.240 can put into that blank basically any animal, whatever animal 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:09.360 seems doable from a movie making standpoint and acceptable to 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.800 the human imagination. And I guess you could ultimately go 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.760 beyond the realm of humans into other things as long 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.680 as you could somehow cobble together a script around it. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.079 Yeah. I don't know if I've ever seen another one 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:21.639 of these. I think I saw Airbud when I was 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.639 a kid, But I know it's a tradition right there, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.680 you know, there's a million movies like Jeremy the Football Horse. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.760 Well, yeah, I think one of the earliest, if not 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.799 the earliest, examples of this. And I could be wrong, 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.680 because this is not a subgenre that I have personally 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:38.880 explored a lot. But I do remember seeing parts of 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.080 this one on TV the nineteen seventy six movie Gus, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.000 which also had Ed Asner and Don Knot sent it 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.720 to give you an idea of the you know, the 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.000 caliber of talent that was involved in this, But it 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.600 was about a terrible NFL team. I think there's something 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.720 like the California Atomics or something, and they end up 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.640 deciding to field a donkey as a kicker in the game, 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:05.480 and I guess it works out for them. Again, there's 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.520 nothing in the rule, but this says a donkey can't 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.880 play inn FL. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.440 Yeah. I imagine movies like this must just encourage an 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:19.560 overly stringent form of legalism when it comes to professional sports. Yeah, Like, 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.680 does it say games must take place on planet Earth 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:23.440 and so forth? 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.640 Yeah? Yeah, they will at this point. Surely the future 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.360 proof things. But if we're going just based on these films, 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.400 it would seem that for a while they didn't have 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.480 all the loopholes filled in on this, and and people 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.120 were just constantly rolling out new animals, like it doesn't 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.880 say anything about ardvarks. So ardvarks are in play huh 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:47.240 in Professional Curly Yes, okay. But outside of Gus and Airbud, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.600 you also have movies like two thousands MVP Most Valuable Primate, 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.200 in which a chimpanzee plays soccer. There are also I 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.840 think thirteen additional Airbud sequels and spin offs. 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.440 Human they're also primates. All existing soccer players are primates. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:09.040 Well, tell the producers of MVP Most Valuable Primate about that. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.440 They maybe they actually touched on in the screenplay, but 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:12.960 I doubt it. 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.720 But I'm sorry you were. How many air Bud movies 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:16.159 are there? 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:23.160 Thirteen by Mike count, That includes the air Buddies like 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.520 spinoff series, and interestingly enough, two thousand and six is 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.960 air Buddies. That was Don Nottt's final film. He voiced 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:31.880 a bloodhound in it. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:32.880 Oh. 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.279 Now, I don't know. Does that that means animals talk 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.880 in air Buddies. I don't know if animals talked in Airbud. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.000 Perhaps you remember, I don't remember. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.120 I'm inclined to think not. I think the Dog and 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.800 Air Bud was silent. But yeah, well, but by the 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.200 time they get into the Buddies movies, which by the way, 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.680 descend into titles like Space Buddies and Santa Buddies. As 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.640 far as I can tell, these are just an excuse 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.320 to have a screen full of Golden Retriever puppies for 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.919 eighty minutes. I think it is absolutely crass mercenary filmmaking. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.640 It's just ultimate cute exploitation. But this was also the 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.320 series that in an episode long ago, we suggested should 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.000 do a crossover with the Clive Barker verse and create 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:16.760 hell Buddies. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.080 Now. There's also just real quick a few other mentions. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.080 There's nineteen ninety nine Soccer Dog, the movie. There's two 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.200 thousand and five's The Karate Dog, and then there's the 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.520 nineteen ninety six movie Ed, in which a chimpanzee plays baseball. Oh, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.960 and then there's nineteen seventy eight's Matilda about a boxing kangaroo. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.159 That one has interested me because I noticed its stars 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.560 Elliott Gould, and it was also one of the films 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.920 you could pull up on the Criterion Collections streaming service 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.040 at least several months back. 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.400 Boxing kangaroo. Is that a waltzing Matilda joke? 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.920 I imagine? So yeah, And I looked a little bit 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.480 into this related to this podcast episod, and I quickly realized, Oh, well, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.640 the boxing kangaroo is a whole thing unto itself that 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.680 does have some basis in kangaroo behavior, but often in 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.640 like a misinterpretation of kangaroo defensive behavior. But it has 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.359 kind of like a life of its own outside of 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.680 this particular picture. It might be something to come back 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:18.360 to in the future. 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.039 Now, one more thing about the Airbud franchise. You know, 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.600 before they get to air Buddies, I think you were 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.000 saying that the Golden Retrievers end up doing a bunch 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.960 of different sports, and they've all got puns in the titles. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.240 So the one where Airbud does baseball is called Airbud 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.080 Seventh Inning Fetch. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.200 You got to get some puns in there, all right. 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.480 But bringing it all back around to today's episode, Okay, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.960 some of these we can just instantly dismiss for now. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.120 We don't need to concern ourselves with boxing kangaroos or 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.279 karate dogs because these do not involve throwing. You know, 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.480 we're going to focus on the sports that involve throwing 0:06:55.480 --> 0:07:00.440 a ball. Gus, that's impressive, but he's a kicker. Despite 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.279 just participating in a game that has a lot of 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.640 throwing in it doesn't seem to be throwing anything. So 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:06.560 we really only have to worry about the concept of 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.480 dogs playing scoring games with balls and chimpanzees playing scoring 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:15.240 games with balls. Real quick, let's talk about dogs. And 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.920 you may have additional expertise on this to throw in 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.760 here experience from being a dog owner. But as far 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.280 as dogs go, they can obviously be trained to do 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.400 a lot of different things, often very impressive things, including chasing, 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.680 after catching, and fetching balls and sticks, and as is 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.480 evident in many videos online, they can also be trained 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.680 to bounce basketballs into baskets off of their noses, off 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:40.680 of their snouts. 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.560 That always, I don't know, Like a basketball is a 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.560 fairly massive object. I would think booping a basketball in 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.160 midflight with the snout would really kind of hurt. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.840 Yeah, I'm not sure, but I looked around, and as 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:59.480 far as dogs throwing, I'm not so certain about this. Drops. Yes, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.520 they can. You'll see plenty of examples of dogs catching 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.760 things dropping them, But I'm not sure. I'm not sure 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.400 you really have anything like throwing even kind of a 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.200 you know, a tossing aside of a stick. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.600 Or a ball, well, not targeted throwing. I mean, I 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.320 think what's quite common for dogs is something more like 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:23.800 what the mongoose did with the millipede. Dogs will, especially 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.160 dogs that have been trained in kind of unusual environments, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:32.240 with say a puzzle type treat retrieval toy, you know, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.200 so you have like some kind of toy where the 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.959 treat is hidden inside and the dog has to manipulate 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:40.880 the toy to get the treat out of the middle. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.920 In those cases, I've seen dogs throwing the toy in 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.520 order to try to extract the treat, but it's very haphazard. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.040 They're not like hitting a target. They're more just kind 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.080 of like throwing it wildly by tossing their head and 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.439 it'll bounce off the wall or something, and maybe the 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:57.720 treat will tumble out. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.000 Now. I also some discussions and some papers about the 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.880 possibility that a dog using a chewing stick is essentially 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.880 a form of tool use, and this would also apply 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.000 to any other animal that uses a stick in such 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.840 a fashion. So that's an interesting idea. To consider. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.360 Hmmm, yeah, you can make that argument, I guess by 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.679 the same token, you could say, like a bear scratching 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.920 its butt against a tree would be a form of 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:23.560 tool use. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:29.360 Yeah. Chimps, However, chimps are a different case entirely. So 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.280 we're not saying that chimpanzees should be encouraged to play 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.560 baseball or soccer or any other professional sport or any 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.440 sport for that matter. But they have certainly demonstrated their 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.520 use of tools in both captivity and in the wild. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.040 And this includes the targeted use of thrown objects. Now, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.760 one of the objects or substances I guess observed to 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.000 be thrown a lot, and this is something that is 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.960 of course well documented online. In fact, when we were 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.400 researching other aspects of animals throwing things, some of the 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.760 search engines I was using, We're very excited to give 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:06.760 me content of animals throwing feces, particularly chimps throwing feces. 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.760 I was not looking for this information at the time, 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.920 but the Internet really wanted to desert it to me. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:12.880 Uh huh. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:14.760 Now this kind of goes back into something we talked 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.440 about earlier, the question if you're doing something with something 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.719 that came from your own body, is it truly tool use? 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:21.800 I don't know. I mean, I guess when I was 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.920 thinking about substances that come out of an animal's own body, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.640 I was thinking about like things like spider silk, or 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:33.120 like the irticating hairs that come off of a tarantula's back, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.320 where the ways in which these substances are used are 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.120 not very generalized, They're not very free form. Instead, they 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:49.119 seem to be pretty tightly controlled, instinctually determined behavioral patterns, 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.640 whereas I don't know, you could say, maybe like a 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.800 chimpanzee pooping and then throwing its poop at someone or 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.720 something that seems to be a little more free form. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.480 Yeah, I guess. Also, and this is not something that 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.600 any of the papers I looked that got into, But 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:07.200 I guess there's a difference between poop directly delivered to 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.760 the hand and then thrown and like poop that is 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.640 just like say, in a creature's habitat or in its 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.960 general area that it then picks up, maybe not even 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.600 its own poop. So I guess we'd have to consider 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:20.200 that as well. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:22.360 Now, I do think we should be clear that feces 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.640 are not the only objects that apes like chimpanzees throw, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.000 but it is a feces are often observed to be thrown, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:30.840 especially in captivity. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:35.240 I think, yes, yeah, definitely. The sources I was looking 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:40.359 at were definitely mentioning this because in captivity, especially historically, 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.960 there are often less things for the animal to interact with. 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.400 The poop is something that will happen eventually, will be 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.880 in the enclosure, and therefore is available to pick up, manipulate, 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.960 and throw if desired, whereas in the wild there are 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.360 other competitors out there, the other things that could pick up, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.680 like sticks, like rocks that could be thrown, and we 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.880 have seen them throw such objects both in captivity but 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.640 also in the wild, and so it seems to be 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.040 a situation where there are far more incidents of poop 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.600 throwing in captivity versus the wild, though they have been 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.280 observed to throw poop in the wild as well. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.040 So yeah, I guess I would not disqualify something from 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.400 counting as tool use just because it consists of an 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.120 animal's own excreta or something that came out of their body. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.280 I mean you could use poop, I suppose, as a 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:27.680 tool for all kinds of things. 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.280 Yeah, yeah, this is kind of a tangent, but I 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.800 was looking around and back. In twenty seventeen, a team 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.319 from the University of Calgary hosted a competition to make 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.920 use of astronaut waste, and the winning submission was titled 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:46.360 Astroplastic from Colon to Colony, in which the DNA of 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.040 an E. Coli bacteria was modified so that it removed 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.679 acids from human feces, and they did not use actual 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.880 poop in the experiment. It used like a mixture of 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.360 things to simulate poop. But the idea was here that 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:04.959 this this modified E. Coli would produce a plastic that 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.280 can then be used in a three D printer to 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.880 produce simple tools like wrenches and screwdrivers. So the aim 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.440 here would be sort of twofold. So say you're going 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.160 to Mars on an extended mission. This way you don't 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.840 have to bring those tools with you. You don't have to 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.360 pay for the cost of getting those tools into orbit 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.040 and then to Mars, and then likewise you have to 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.360 worry less about getting rid of human waste on the journey. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.480 That's quite brilliant. Yes, I one day hope to have 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:39.520 all kinds of plastic tools and toys made out of poop. Now, 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.439 this is sort of another aside, but this gets back 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.280 to chimps specifically, if you might get into the question 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:51.000 of why do chimps throw poop specifically, even if they 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.400 have a choice of their objects to throw? And I 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.720 found this rather fascinating older paper. This is from nineteen 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.880 ninety six. It is a rush and paper titled a 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.680 neglected form of quasi aggression in Apes Possible relevance for 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.320 the origins of humor. This was the current anthropology and 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:10.880 I'm just going to read a quote from it here. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.400 According to people working at the Pavlov Center, at least 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.600 four adult chimpanzee males and one adult female would also 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.960 throw feces at people, expressing joy when the target was 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.520 hit by making a playface, hooting, clapping, and stamping around. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.840 They did not, however, throw feces at persons of whom 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.240 they were afraid. We have received the same information from 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.120 people in charge of chimpanzees at the Saint Petersburg and 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.360 Moscow zoos at the Moscow Zoo. The same behavior was 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:39.600 observed in orangutanks. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.920 Hmmm, so at least in these cases the chimpanzees seemed 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.680 to get a real hoot out of hitting somebody with 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:48.200 some poop. 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.000 Yeah, and again this is older research, and I detect 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.240 at least a little bit of anthropomorphizing here, But the 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.520 distinction about fear was very interesting. So maybe in this 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.760 we do see the roots of something like humor. But 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:06.680 elsewhere primatologists do seem to agree that throwing poop, stone, sticks, etc. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:11.360 And primates is often an act of communication, which matches 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.800 up with some of the things we've been discussing elsewhere 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:14.440 in this series. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.560 Yeah, and that we will get to in a little 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.120 bit when we talk about human evolution. 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:23.000 Yeah, and with gimps, it's not even it's not even 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.960 a case of like of necessarily purely spontaneous communication. Like 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.080 it's easy, I think to make that leap. You think 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.200 of like an animal trying to say something, not having 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.240 the ability to say it, or having difficulty relaying that message, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.240 and then sort of sort of spontaneously picking something up 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.120 and throwing it, or perhaps it already has something that's 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.720 hand and it throws it. And this would still be 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.280 very fascinating. I mean, even you think of like a 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.400 zoo environment, for example, the chimp is attempting interspecies communication, 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.800 even if that interspecies communication consists of throwing a rock 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.280 or some poop at somebody, right, but it's not always spontaneous. 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.480 Sometimes it is premeditated in the case of stone throwing, 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.960 that's been observed. One of the more famous examples of 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.280 this was Santino the chimpanzee born in nineteen seventy eight, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.120 who made headlines multiple times, and I think sometimes the 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.080 news cycle would come back around to him because in 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.760 addition to being a pretty talented artist, he also had 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.640 some issues with people, like to collect stones ahead of 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.120 time so that he could throw them at visitors to 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.160 the Throuvic Zoo in Sweden. 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.600 Now that's really interesting, the collecting of stones in advance aspect, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.120 because of course that indicates some kind of forethought or 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.760 premeditation or planning, like seeing the stone as a tool 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.080 for future use in a moment when it is not 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.640 currently needed for that use. 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.480 Yeah, and apparently it wasn't an isolated incident. It's said 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.920 that he planned hundreds of stone throwing attacks on zoo 0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:01.640 visitors over the years. Sadly from his enclosure in December 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.879 of twenty twenty two, and was subsequently shot along with 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.760 some other escapees, which was a pretty controversial incident recently. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.520 There's a fair amount of coverage about that, but I 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.359 don't think everybody necessarily connected that this was the same 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.320 chimp that had made headlines in the past for the 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.520 throwing of rocks. 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:20.920 And for art apparently. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.480 And for art. Yeah, you can find videos of him 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.760 online doing some painting, you know, manipulating of pigments on 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.399 a canvas to create some interesting works. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:44.400 Well, sat in for Santino, but led an interesting life. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:49.200 Now there's another interesting wrinkle in stone throwing with chimps 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.080 that I was reading about, because in the wild, chimps 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.639 will also engage in what is called a cumulative stone throwing, 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.320 as reported by cool at All in Nature Scientific Reports 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:04.080 back in twenty s sixteen, modern chimpanzees will actually create 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.679 stone accumulation sites that are reminiscent of human cares, of 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:16.000 human assemblages of stone, something that we often associate with deliberate, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.600 cultured acts of human behavior something. And this is both 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:26.480 from an archaeological standpoint, when archaeologists find examples of stones 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.240 that have been gathered together in one area, and also 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.639 I think we just individually encounter this as well, whether 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.600 you see piles of stones that are put there for 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.720 a purpose, Like perhaps you're on a nature walk and 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.200 these stones are gathered together to help mark the path 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.000 you're supposed to be on, or you often see this 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:50.159 done out of for pure amusement. At times, you'll just 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.879 find places where humans have been around multiple stones and 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.960 there's like kind of this irresistible urge to arrange them 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:56.920 or stack them up. 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.280 Yeah, and so it's interesting, But I also so I'm 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.439 hesitant to make the speculative leap here. I mean, I 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.520 know I was reading about this paper, and I know 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.639 what some people have said about the you know, the 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.040 accumulation of stones, like throwing stones into the into a 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.320 hollow tree or something until they really pile up. That suggests, well, 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.919 maybe they're creating some kind of like ritual monument, like 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.040 you know, like humans would create a care and for 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.440 some kind of purpose to be observed and to mean something. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.760 I don't think there's really evidence present to jump to 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.040 that kind of conclusion, because that seems like a different 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.359 order of that symbolic behavior that, as far as I know, 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.680 is probably only the province of humans. But I guess 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.520 we could always be surprised. It seems kind of a 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:44.359 speculative leap to me, but it's still really interesting behavior. Nonetheless, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.400 I mean that the chimpanzee is piling up the stones 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.000 for some interesting reason, even if it's not to like 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.560 create a symbolic marker for other chimpanzees to see. 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.639 Yeah. Yeah, So this particular paper they're drawing on various 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.040 surveys and accounts, and they found four populations in West 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.520 Africa where chimps quote habitually bang and throw rocks against 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.520 trees or toss them into tree cavities, resulting in conspicuous 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.760 stone accumulations at these sites. They point out that chimps, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.920 along with kibuchin monkeys and long tailed macaques, are known 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.160 to use stones as hammers to crack open and cased foods. 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.760 They point out that stone throwing in chimpanzees was first 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.040 described by Jane Goodall, who documented aimed throwing of sticks 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:32.720 and rocks by male chimpanzees during agonistic displays, and this 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.800 behavior was later described by researchers for other non human 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:40.400 primates as well, including Japanese macaques, wild baboons, and capuchin monkeys. 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.760 Female bearded kbuchins have also been observed to throw rocks 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.720 during courtship interactions, which I guess this would be like 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.280 tenderly throwing pebbles against a window to get their lover's 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:56.080 interest at night without awakening the parents downstairs, or maybe not. 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.399 I like it, but human metaphors aside, I mean like it. 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.160 It is interesting that they would throw rocks at each 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.199 other for apparent purposes other than threats or intimidation. 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.640 Yeah. Again, coming back into the communication aspect of it now, 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:15.639 I mentioned the using some sort of nutcracking behavior with 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.919 rocks that can sometimes lead to those rocks accumulating in 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.120 certain places, which is a different type of accumulation versus 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.600 what we're talking with the chimps here. Also, the paper 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:29.000 points out the Japanese macaques engage in stone handling, which 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:34.040 isn't tool use but solitary object play behavior, and it 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.760 actually results in use where patterns on the stones and 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:42.120 the stones will then end up accumulating at quote unquote PlayStations. 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.239 So just sort of like handling, manipulating a stone, not 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.160 really doing anything in particular with it. 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.760 Yeah, yeah, which is I get. You know, it's like 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.960 the monolith hasn't really kicked in yet, but they're but 0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:00.560 they're handling the stone, but chimpanzees are well beyond all 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.879 of these, like chimpanzees are second only to humans in 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.840 the variance of their tool usage. They make use of 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.480 simple sticks, stone hammers, stone cleavers to link to cut foods. 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.919 They've even been observed to hunt sleeping bush babies with 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.280 wooden spears. So this is I think only been observed 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:24.639 in female chimpanzees. But they'll take take a stick and 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.760 sort of sort of sharpen it with their teeth or 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.959 chew on it, you know, to get something like a point, 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.840 and then use that stick to stab into the hollows 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.560 of trees where there's a sleeping bush baby and spirit 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:37.960