1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media. 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People did Cool Stuff. You're 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that when bad things are happening, there's 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: people trying to do good things. And one of those 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: people trying to do a good thing and even writing 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 2: comics about trying to figure out whether writing comics is 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 2: the right thing to do, to do good things in 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: the face of all the badness, is Ben Passmore. Hi, 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: how are you? 10 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 3: Hello's peace fees. 11 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: Our producer Sophie is also here. Hi, Sophie, what's up? 12 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 3: Guys? 13 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 4: Happy to be here. I'm excited to hear more So. 14 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: I want to talk about the thing that I just 15 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: did in my intro. My dog just shook his head, 16 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 2: but in a positive way, not in a negative way. 17 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: Thank you for the clarification. No, because when it all 18 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: shakes his head, it's cute. But if you say someone 19 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: shook their head, it sounds like they're being negative, you know, No, 20 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: it's true. Okay, I think it's okay to spoil a 21 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: history book. Is this okay to talk about some of 22 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: the last scenes or how do you feel? Oh? 23 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, it's already happened, you know. Yeah. 24 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: So this book for anyone who's just joining us on 25 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: part two. Ben Passmore is the winner of the Eisner 26 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: and Ignaz Awards for Comics. Is also a champion kickboxer 27 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: in one County in Delaware, but also it probably actually 28 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: could still kick well everyone listening is asked and has 29 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 2: written a book called Black Arms to Hold You Up, 30 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: which is a graphic history of kind of the nineteenth century. 31 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 2: It's sorry, twentieth century. I always do the nineteen hundred 32 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: is twentieth century thing wrong. I'm very good at history, 33 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: a history of black radical politics in the twentieth century 34 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: and the current world. And you use yourself as a 35 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: framing character. And I'm really interested in this, and I'm 36 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: really interested in this one because it actually adds a 37 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: certain amount of levity to the whole thing and gives 38 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 2: the reader, like someone, kind of a root for because 39 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: like whenever you present history to people, there's always this 40 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: underlying like why do I care? And you do a 41 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: good job. I'm actually curious what you how you go 42 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: about that, trying to make your self care, trying to 43 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: make other people like I'm curious your take on this. 44 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And just to go back to the fighting thing, 45 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 3: I beat up two men in a barn so it's 46 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: not much of a championship. 47 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: Ay, but yeah, they weren't even in the competition. It 48 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: was actually they were like a community. 49 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: No, that was different. I had butted someone once in 50 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 3: Florida and that wasn't for a title, but I'm more 51 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: proud of that. Yeah. I think the choice to put 52 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 3: myself in the book sort of came from a couple places. 53 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: One was that I used to work for a website 54 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 3: that doesn't exist anymore called The NIB, in which I 55 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 3: did a lot of like quote unquote like comics journalism, 56 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: you know, So I'd write about, you know, a demonstration 57 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 3: or something that I had been to or maybe not 58 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 3: been to, and try to tease out larger ideas. So, 59 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: you know, I talked about the Unite the Right rally 60 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,559 Speaker 3: and then sort of talked about the idea of legality 61 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: right as an inherently moral thing. So the publisher was understand, 62 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: you know, and thinking about a pretty polarizing book, you know, 63 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 3: about black people shooting cops. They're like, well, a thing 64 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: that people do like is when you explain things, you know, 65 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: as a character, which I was resistant to because you know, 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: I am myself. I am not an armed revolutionary so 67 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 3: I was like, I don't know what I'm doing in 68 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: the book, you know, But when I was writing it, 69 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 3: I did ask myself, what can I bring to this topic. 70 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 3: You know, I'm not a historian, I'm not a journalist. 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: I'm maybe much more obsessive right about this history than 72 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 3: other people. So I went back and I thought about 73 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: what my personal relationship to the history was, and it 74 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: was that it was so defining for me personally. And so, 75 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: you know, that is how I decided to sort of 76 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 3: like have my character be in it, but also my dad, 77 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: you know, because originally my dad was not going to 78 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: be in the book. So the whole framing, right, is 79 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: about my dad trying to teach me a version of 80 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: me that is incredibly resistant engaging in the history and 81 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: sort of black identity in general. And my dad is 82 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 3: more or less through the majority of the book dragging 83 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: me by the ear metaphorically speaking through the book. 84 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: I think at one point literally maybe it's by the hair. Literally, 85 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: I think at some point he's physically dragging I might 86 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: be wrong, anyway. 87 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 3: Some snipers are shooting at cops in Detroit in sixty seven. 88 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 3: I think he drags me by the shirt before giving 89 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: me a dashiki. Yeah, okay, so not by the year, 90 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 3: by the collar. So yeah. I thought that it would, 91 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: you know, in the way that people often sort of 92 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: like write characters that know nothing, right, I thought that 93 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: it would be advantageous to have a character who needed, 94 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: you know, to be explained to, particularly because I knew 95 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: I wasn't going to be able to write an exhaustive 96 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 3: history of for the most part, like really obscure characters. 97 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: And I think also I just I wanted a chance 98 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: to sort of have I don't know, like a bit 99 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: of a grounding character. There's a lot that I try 100 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: to write about in the book. It's only two hundred pages, 101 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 3: and I'm trying to write about like one hundred years 102 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: of history, and there's a lot of heavy stuff, unsurprisingly 103 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: that happens in the book. So it felt like, particularly 104 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 3: because I knew that people were going to read this book, 105 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 3: that maybe wouldn't have the same emotional response to a 106 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: lot of these things. Like there's a scene that is 107 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 3: essentially happening at Emmett Till's funeral, who was a you know, 108 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: a fourteen year old boy who was brutally beaten. I 109 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: believe in the fifties by several white men and then 110 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: killed and dumped into a river, and the picture of 111 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: his mutilated body in the casket was sort of this 112 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: enormous wake up call, mostly for the you know, black 113 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: people in the country. So it's this enormous turning point. 114 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: It's incredibly tragic, and I think I wanted to when 115 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 3: thinking about scenes like that, moments like that, and thinking 116 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: about how to construct it, it felt maybe a bit 117 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: easier right to have a character who's sort of like 118 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: playing off of these moments, because you know, I think 119 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 3: black death is incredibly normalized in the country, you know 120 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: what I mean. Yeah, I don't know, or I can't 121 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: myself always know that non black people will sort of 122 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 3: respond without being incredibly prescriptive normally, you know, to these things. 123 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's my long winded answer to that question. Sorry. 124 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: You know. And one of the things that you talk 125 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 2: about like the normalization of these funerals, and like you 126 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: do that really interestingly in the book, Like your character 127 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: Ben is like, am I at a yet another funeral? 128 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: And they're like, no, it's a celebration of life, And 129 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: You're like, that sounds like a funeral, And you do 130 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: this interesting thing though, like the kicking and screaming, Like 131 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: I get the feeling that that's a bit of artist, right, 132 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: There's like probably some truth in it, but obviously you 133 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: weren't ignorant of this history because you're the one who 134 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 2: wrote this history book. But like with these funerals, you're 135 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 2: kind of like, is this just tragedy after tragedy? That's 136 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: like something you bring up in the book, And I'm 137 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: curious what you think about the like presentation of history 138 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: as tragedies, which isn't the only thing you do in 139 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: this book, but just a part of it. 140 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think anyone that's writing about black history in 141 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: the United States is working against this seemingly just like 142 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: endless desire for black tragedy over anything else, you know. 143 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: I think that that is comfortable because it makes a 144 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: group of people that I think a lot of people 145 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: are otherwise very scared of or feel alienated from, seem 146 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: like they need like we need help, you know. But 147 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: if you tell the story right, which is that we 148 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: are a deeply brave and ingenious people, not to you know, 149 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: whatever gats people up and make us seem you know, 150 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 3: like immortal or whatever. But you have to admit that 151 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: it's impressive, you know what we've been able to do 152 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: under the circumstances, you know, absolutely. Yeah. But a conversation 153 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: that I was listening to recently that was about the 154 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: Tulsa Race Riot was talking about the role of the 155 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: African Blood Brotherhood. These were contemporaries of Dubois, so we're 156 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: talking around that time, and they were a sort of 157 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 3: they were Marxist Lendiness. It was a secret black society, 158 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 3: revolutionary Black society. So they had members unlike that NAACP 159 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: for a while, they had members in the South, and 160 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: there is members in Tulsa. And how the story goes 161 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: is that members of the brotherhood organized a counter lynching 162 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: action when the young man was going to be lynched 163 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: by white folks in Tulsa, and either them or people 164 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 3: with them killed a couple of white men and it 165 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: was the death of those white men. Both the death 166 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: and their inability to lynch a young boy was what 167 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: was ultimately the motivation to burn you know, Black Wall 168 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: Street down. And the person talking and I really should 169 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 3: remember who it is, but I can. But the point 170 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: that they're making, right is that it seems very very 171 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: important to emphasize the massacre, but to basically make sure 172 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: that we never talk about the successful anti lynching action 173 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: that resulted in white supremacist death. And so I think 174 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 3: in the book, I you know, both in the production 175 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: of it and my characters sort of like playing with 176 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 3: there is a repetition of death right that is part 177 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: of it. What I try to also just do is 178 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 3: frame like the bravery and ingenuity and that the reality 179 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: is the stakes are incredibly high, right, you know, a 180 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: black person's heart talking about liberation, even not out the guns, 181 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: they easily end up dead. Right. 182 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: You have this line that you quote in it a 183 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: couple times from a poem, if we were to die, 184 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: let us die nobly. Yeah, And that feels like kind 185 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: of a central theme to this, especially because a lot 186 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: of it feels like you thinking about your own relationship 187 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: to like, you know, the book starts with the man 188 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: in nineteen hundred and being like, man, I'm just not 189 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: fucking taking this anymore, and then like, yeah, as you said, 190 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 2: ends with twenty sixteen when another man was like man, 191 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: I'm just not fucking taking this anymore, and you have 192 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: this really poignant moment where you're You're like, I don't know, man, 193 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: is that what's left and then you're like, no, right, 194 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: it's not. And so instead, I'm going to write this 195 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: book and throw it at cops heads, and I'm curious 196 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: to talk about that part of it. Although actually, honestly, 197 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: if you want to talk more about the like, I 198 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: have so many thoughts, I'm so sorry. I'll go with 199 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: the question I already asked and then ask more questions, 200 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: because yeah. 201 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: No, I really appreciate it. I did get a bit 202 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: of criticism right for I guess apparently not depicting myself 203 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 3: shooting cops with a gun. I think the reasons I 204 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: didn't do that are obvious. Both it is not happens, 205 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 3: and if it did, I would not tell anyone about it, 206 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: right Anyway, That's what's different from me and Paul birds 207 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 3: Song beautiful just a yeah, straight for Paul bird Song, 208 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 3: I think the thing that I wanted to sort of 209 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: come across because it feels it feels like if I 210 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 3: sort of talk about or if I speak again sort 211 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: of like you know, revolutionary suicide, like sacrificing yourself for 212 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: the sake of the movement or for the sake of 213 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: itself for the movement, I can come off as like 214 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: a bit of a reformist, and the last thing I 215 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: want is to come off like a liberal, like there's 216 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: so much both because I'm not, and also there's so 217 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 3: much capture around this history by reformists, you know, so 218 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: many people who are purporting to be sort of the 219 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: inheritors of this tradition, who have none of the politics. Right. 220 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: I don't want to do that, but I did want 221 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: to sort of talk about this feeling that I had 222 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 3: when I, you know, first saw you know, the video 223 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 3: of Mike Xavier Johnson, because we have a bit of 224 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: a video of him dodging bullets and shooting at least 225 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 3: one cop. It's the craziest video. It's still on YouTube, 226 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: it's easy to find. But just this man, you know, 227 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: all these bullets exploding around him now, and you can't 228 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: help but feel deeply inspired by that kind of bravery. 229 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 3: But when you dig down into it, you also recognize 230 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: that he is in that place because of a deep 231 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 3: loneliness and despair, right, and that this movement is ultimately 232 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: not about a desire for death. It's a desire for life. 233 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: And it is the point that my dad in the 234 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: book makes, and it's you know, not unique to me. 235 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: Huey Newton a controversial figure, but you know he writes 236 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: about this in Revolutionary Suicide Asadash Corps, you know, famous 237 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 3: Panther and bla member and you know exile until her 238 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: recent transition in Cuba. But also you know the amazing 239 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: book and movie The Spook That Sat by the Door 240 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 3: talks about how you have to this is not about hate. 241 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 3: You got to love something so much that you're willing 242 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: to fight for it. And I think that that's what 243 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: I really wanted to sort of land on the part 244 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 3: about the books. You know too, is I set a 245 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: joke up early in the book that you know, these 246 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: dusty books, you may as well just throw them a cop. 247 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, you know I have to follow through obviously. 248 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: Well what we have to follow through on our obligations 249 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: to the products and services that support the show by 250 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: interrupting our content with ads and her back. Yeah. No, 251 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: I maybe it's because I'm aware of your work, but 252 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: I think you actually do a pretty good job of 253 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: not saying like the real answer is just political education 254 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 2: and like you know, the books will change the CoP's minds. 255 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: To me, what it came across as you saying like 256 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: I an individual. I am looking at the history of 257 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: collective and individual action, and you're comparing the two, right, 258 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: like a lot of the individual action is this sort 259 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: of revolutionary suicide because you're like, well, what the hell 260 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: else am I going to do? 261 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 3: Right? 262 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: And you're talking about the people at the beginning of 263 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: the end are kind of disconnected, right, not from each other, 264 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: but like from larger movements. And then you've also gone 265 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: through all of these collective efforts that people have put 266 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: together and showing what's beautiful about them, but also showing 267 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: like how a lot of them were also real messy, 268 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: you know. And my takeaway is you saying like, and 269 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 2: maybe because I resonate with it a little bit, obviously 270 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: not in the same struggles, but it's like, what the 271 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: hell do I do right? Because you're like, I don't 272 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: want to just die, right, you know? And And the 273 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 2: answer is, well, we don't know what the answer is. 274 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: Everyone's gonna have to find that answer for themselves. But 275 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 2: like you're presenting a you character being like, I don't 276 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: know what I'm gonna try this, you know, I'm going 277 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: to write this. I'm going to explain my own experiences 278 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: and talk about history and try and like get across 279 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: the ideas of history. That was my read on it. 280 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I appreciate it that it didn't just come 281 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: off liberal. I think something that speaking of liberals, no, 282 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: I'm joking. I always think about the conversation between Tanahase 283 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: Coats and Ezra Kline, which we sort of moved on 284 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 3: from because you know, Ezra clin is the worst. But 285 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: I think something that Coats talked about that really bore 286 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: out in the conversation, right, was one sort of like 287 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 3: this perspective that is often contained by what you know, 288 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 3: we call the majority population, the white population, is the 289 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: sort of expectation that you will win, that it's close, 290 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 3: and that it's just a matter of like a couple 291 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: moves and you'll get to where you want to be. 292 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: And the point that Tanajaseikats has made, he was like, 293 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: I'm part of a tradition that understands that I am 294 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 3: just I'm not going to see liberation in my lifetime, 295 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: that I am contributing one piece to a multi generational fight. 296 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: And so I think that the desire that I try 297 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: to play out in the book, and that I hope 298 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 3: that people would be left with is sort of this 299 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: understanding that we are only as strong as all these 300 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: links between the generations of people that seek to struggle, 301 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: and that it's not really about And some of this 302 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: is also just informed by my anarchist background, right, and 303 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: the way that I came to anarchism, which is much 304 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: more influenced by insurrectionists and you know, Russian nihilists and stuff. 305 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 3: This is my biraciality, I guess, but you know, it's 306 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: just sort of a lot of it is just like 307 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: I'm engaged. I feel liberated in my struggle, you know 308 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: what I mean. And there's no expectation that I am 309 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: going to live and reside in, you know, a post 310 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: revolutionary moment. Right, Smarter, braver people than me, fought harder 311 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 3: than I did, and they didn't get there. Right, It's 312 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: not really about that. It's about my contribution, and me 313 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: contributing in a way that links to what came before. Right. 314 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: You talked earlier about you know, the bravery of all 315 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: of these people and all these stories, and like I 316 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: think people get lost in this idea of thinking about 317 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: like the post revolutionary moment, We're going to accomplish the thing, 318 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: it's going to be a check mark and then we 319 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: all like just to make fun of it as much 320 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: as possible. We all get to go to brunch, only 321 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: it's communist brunch or socialist brunch or anarchist brunch or 322 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: whatever the fucker, or even Pan Africanist brunch, although that 323 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: one might work. 324 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: I don't know. We'll say the most delicious brunch you 325 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: know of them. 326 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: Honestly, yeah, yeah, probably a buch better food. And the 327 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: thing that I keep learning by doing the show and 328 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: trying to read about all these moments in history is 329 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: like you never are like, oh, then they won, right, 330 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: But then you're like, oh, the world, there's no bottom 331 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: to how bad things can get. Yes, So when we're 332 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: not all suffering eternal like, we're winning because we have 333 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 2: raised ourselves up from the infinite depths that reactionaries, fascism, 334 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: white supremacy like are capable of putting people right. And 335 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 2: so like, when I look at these movements, they're incredibly 336 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: successful and not in the like check mark everything's racism 337 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: is fixed, whatever the fuck way, but like in the 338 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: like no it it would be so much worse without them, 339 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: Like all of the actions of people all over the 340 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: world every day are the reason we don't live in 341 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: a complete and utter nightmare. We live in a moderate nightmare, right, 342 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: you know. 343 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I think this is a great point. It 344 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 3: makes me think about something that feels like a bit tricky, 345 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 3: But the way in which I think I resonate with 346 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: that where so much. I think of what we're seeing, 347 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: how Trump is moving and his you know, his supporters 348 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: at large, They're responding to a lot of things, right, 349 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: But I think one of the things that you know, 350 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: they themselves bring up is that they're incredibly mad at 351 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 3: how twenty twenty went for them. Yeah, you know what 352 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: I mean. And they come from a tradition that was 353 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: horrified by the sixties and the seventies, you know. And 354 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: I think that that is very very telling that it's 355 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 3: of course, I'm not calling you from New Africa, right, 356 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 3: like that didn't happen, right, But as you're saying, there 357 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 3: is something to be said that it's not a total loss, 358 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: because our enemies really are fighting for their lives to 359 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: not get back to even where we were then. You know. 360 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard because when we look at history, 361 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 2: we can only see what happened, right, and we can't 362 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 2: see what would have happened if the following people weren't there, 363 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 2: or if the following actions didn't get taken. But it's 364 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: like you look at enough of it and you're like, 365 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: oh no, it just it would have been Hella worse. 366 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 2: Like I don't know, but do you know what sometimes 367 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: doesn't remember where she is when she has to do 368 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: AD breaks. It's me. I don't always remember where I 369 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: am when I have to do AD breaks, but I 370 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 2: do them anyway because I am good. 371 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 3: At my job. 372 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: Imagine how much worse the world would be without these 373 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: products and services. That's what you can think to yourself, 374 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 2: unless it's online gambling, in which case, don't do it. 375 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: In reback, the single quote that I wrote down from 376 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: the whole book that I was like because it just 377 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: made me laugh in the middle of reading it really 378 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: hard is Ben is like there's history everywhere. This is 379 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: a nightmare. And I actually thought when I was first 380 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: reading that scene again, you have, like, in a very 381 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: positive way of a very surreal style of storytelling. I actually, 382 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: at the very beginning I thought you had moved to 383 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: the modern time era, but I actually can't remember that 384 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: might believe so, yeah, And you have this idea of 385 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: the character being like wait, I'm not done yet. Right 386 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: in your two hundred pages, you're still only like barely 387 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,959 Speaker 2: touching on all of these different things, you know, and 388 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: like you made a decision, I presume consciously. As contrast 389 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: to the version of this story that I get told 390 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: in school and things, is you don't actually start with slavery, right. Yeah, 391 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: you talk with people who are like, yeah, their parents 392 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: were enslaved, right, and you're starting post reconstruction. But this 393 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: idea that like history is constantly happening. And then the 394 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 2: reason I liked misreading that line is I was thinking 395 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: about how, like what's happening right now is historic, but 396 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: we don't recognize it because we're in it. I don't know, 397 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: can you ever escape history? That's my question. 398 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: One day when we get teleporter. I think, in some ways, 399 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 3: you know, once again, I think it was my flip 400 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 3: and attitude and my desire for a punchline made it 401 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: impossible for me not to write that. But I think 402 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: a lot about what it feels like to be in 403 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: the middle of a riot, and that it's sort of, 404 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 3: as you're saying, everything in a riot, and maybe this 405 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 3: is just me feel so metaphorical, Like I remember, this 406 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 3: is not even a political riot. But after the Eagles 407 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 3: won the super Bowl, I believe in what was like 408 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 3: twenty twenty sixteen, maybe they won the super Bowl and 409 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 3: Philly fans they riot regardless win to lose. They it's 410 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: you know what. 411 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the love of the game. 412 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: Right, and it's about what they yell when they're riding. 413 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 3: But the rioting is going to happen, right. So they 414 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: won the super Bowl, I believe for the first time, 415 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: so Philly is rioting. And because I have I guess 416 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: no fear, I was like, let's go outside, let's see 417 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 3: what it's like. So I go down to City Hall 418 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 3: and there's a mall. There's an incredible fancy mall. And 419 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: if you recall, Meek Mill was was locked up in 420 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: this time, you know, he was dealing with all this 421 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: stuff with the judge. And so we're looking at City Hall. 422 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 3: People are throwing champagne bottles at it. You know, it's 423 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: a riot, but it's sort of the calm stage of 424 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 3: the riot. Everyone's drunk, and then suddenly someone yells free 425 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 3: Meek Mill, and then they just start destroying this mall. 426 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 3: And I was like, it feels I don't know what the 427 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 3: metaphor is, but it just feels metafore like it became. 428 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: It went from a sports thing to political just seamlessly. 429 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 3: And I think, like you just learn a lot about 430 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: the fluidity of movements and belief and history. You know, 431 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: I'm so informed by being in the middle of like 432 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 3: what I think would probably be described as incredibly tumultuous 433 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: and violent moments and just feeling like it does feel 434 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 3: like history playing out in front of you, you know 435 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: what I mean. Yeah, maybe this is me over intellectualizing 436 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 3: a sports riot, but I had an incredibly good time. 437 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, as the cool Zone media sports person. It was 438 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, Oh my, Philly beat New England. That's right, 439 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: forty one to thirty three. 440 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: There's a deep divide in the middle of cool Zone media, 441 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: with it with an oddly neutral position towards the other side, 442 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: where some of the people involved and not always the 443 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: people you would pick, are incredibly interesting in sports, and 444 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: the other half does not know anything about sports but 445 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: is too polite to be all like sports ball, what's 446 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 2: that about? And Sophie and I are oppice side this divide, 447 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: and it's very obvious. 448 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I'm in a weird position. In 449 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 3: that I do a very violent sport but have almost 450 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: no interest in sports itself. Yeah, so I'm a jock 451 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: with very shallow understandings of how most sports work. 452 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: But it's a very direct sport. It's the like can 453 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: I kick this person instead of that can I kick 454 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: this ball past this person? 455 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: That's true. Sure, it also means that sports stats like 456 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: dates are kicked out of my head almost immediately when 457 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 3: I hear them. 458 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I actually knew that date more so because 459 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: of Meek, which again says a lot about me, which 460 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: is not the subject of this podcast, So let's get 461 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: back to it. 462 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: I remember once years ago in the squad in New 463 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: York and this Japanese autonomous who is like, we're all 464 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: like twenty, and this man is like in his late 465 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: thirties and he doesn't speak much English, and he's visiting 466 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: us because he wants to see about how anarchistic folks 467 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: are doing things in the States. And at one point 468 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: he's like, tell me about your life, and we tell 469 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: him about our life, and he's like, oh, you're and 470 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: he opens up his his dictionary and he starts flipping 471 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 2: through and he goes kids, your kids, and we're like yeah, 472 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: and then we're like, and we're going to go to 473 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: this riot later, do you want to come? And he's 474 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 2: like sure, And then we're like it's not political, it's 475 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: just sports, and he's. 476 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 3: Like, okay, that's so funny. 477 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, no riot occurred that evening, but we went just 478 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: in case. 479 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you have to believe in the future riot. 480 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: I had a similar conversation with this one brother named Rome, 481 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: who was part of a prison uprising in Delaware. He 482 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 3: was part of the Vaughn seventeen and in that I 483 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: guess to give a brief background, this was shortly after 484 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 3: Trump was elected. The first time they had a riot, 485 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 3: they took over a bunch of the prison and beat 486 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 3: an incredibly abusive guard to death. Not allegedly. That definitely 487 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: happened Dwayne Stats, who's an amazing cartoonist and political thinker 488 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: who is or is in solitary confinement, but he ended 489 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 3: up being charged for the murder. But Rome, who was 490 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: part of the uprising, got out and he was just 491 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 3: a street dude, you know what I mean. He was 492 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 3: out here, as they say, and I remember him having 493 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 3: a conversation with a close comrade of mine who's talking 494 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: about sort of like the history of like anti real 495 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 3: estate stuff in Philly, which involves you know, people breaking 496 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 3: windows realtor offices, and at least one condo was set 497 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: on fire. And he was like, oh, so like the 498 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 3: stuff I did as a kid. I was like, okay, yeah, 499 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 3: but we. 500 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: Have a political excuse for it now. 501 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 3: Right, exactly. Yeah, it is kind of nice when an 502 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 3: adult is in the room. Yeah, it is a little humiliating. 503 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: One of the last things I want to ask you about. 504 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: One of the more affecting images in the piece is 505 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: it's several pages, and it's just showing people in prison, right, 506 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: And it's names over cells, and some of the people 507 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: represented as skeletons and some people aren't. And this thing 508 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 2: also you brought up earlier in our conversation today or 509 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: maybe it was Monday for you all, where people are 510 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: seeing themselves as prisoners of war, right, And that's like 511 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: when people are like, oh, identifies as a woman with 512 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: like implied air quotes, like, no, they were at war 513 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: with the United States and they're being held in prison 514 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 2: by it. And so I don't want to air quotes 515 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: prisoners of war too hard here. Obviously the state doesn't 516 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: see them that way and whatever. Anyway, my own anarchist 517 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: thing is like, well, why does the state get to 518 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: claim these people? Why can't they be at war with it? 519 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 2: Can't you at least grant them that right? 520 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: But no. 521 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 2: One of the things that makes me saddest when I 522 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: read about sixties and seventies revolt is the prisoners is 523 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: the idea of the people who are still perceiving themselves 524 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: as prisoners of war when the rest of the world 525 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: seems to have kind of moved on, right, And you 526 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit in the book, but 527 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk to you a little 528 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: bit more about it and hear more about it. And 529 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: also if you have thoughts about you know, would you 530 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: recommend people to write prisoners and write political prisoners? And 531 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 2: if so, like how can people get involved in doing that? 532 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: And that's just kind of I want to not have 533 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 2: that be forgotten. And now I'm like sitting there thinking, 534 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: I haven't even covered shit. What's the big uprising? That's 535 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: the famous one that I know the name of and 536 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: I just can't remember right now Attica, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 537 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 2: I'm like I haven't even covered that. On cool People, 538 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: that cool stuff. It's been on my list of like 539 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: I have to get back at these, but I just like, 540 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: I go through eras and I did an awful lot 541 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: of sixty seventies stuff for a while, and I'm going 542 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: to come back to it, but right now I'm lost 543 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: elsewhere in time anyway, whatever, I have questions about prison 544 00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: that's my question. 545 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the prisonal war thing is it's interesting, particularly 546 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 3: if you are an anarchist, because a lot of their 547 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 3: insistence on the prisonal war stuff is connected to appeals 548 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: that they're trying to make to the United Nations to intercede. 549 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: And you'll still see it like legacy organizations of the 550 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 3: Republican and Africa, like the Malcolm X. Grass Rooster Movement 551 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: and Cobra, which I think is still technically exists, So 552 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 3: like a lot of their language is about making appeals 553 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 3: to the United Nations to intercede. So similarly, you'll have, 554 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 3: you know, conversations being like listen, this is a genocide 555 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 3: of black people. So that's sort of what it's for 556 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 3: I think for us, you know, we do recognize them 557 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 3: as guerrillas right as you know, some fifteen year olds 558 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: thought I was talking about monkeys when I did, when 559 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 3: I was talking, you know, like these are arms militants, right, 560 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: and they're they're valid in themselves. So yeah, as you said, like, 561 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 3: you know, there's a bunch of pages that feature a 562 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: lot of political prisoners. Many of those people were in 563 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: the book. I wanted to sort of remind people of 564 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 3: the scale of imprisonment. Also, you know, it's a section 565 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: in which Signa Chakur, who is a crip, turns revolutionary 566 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 3: while he was in prison. It's his chapter, so he's 567 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 3: broadly talking about the role of solitary confinement as something 568 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: that was used as a weapon against panthers among other 569 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: black revolutionaries. It's a bit grounding, Like I think in 570 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 3: some ways, I wanted to sort of remind people, despite 571 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 3: like the contradictions and criticisms might have of like you know, 572 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 3: people like a Mario Obadelli, who is one of the 573 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 3: founding members of the Republican Africa. I have a lot 574 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 3: of criticisms of him, you know, he, like a lot 575 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: of other men, his patriarchy really got in the way 576 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: of him understanding the importance of the female members of 577 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: his movement, you know, and that's talked about a little 578 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: bit in the book. But he ends up in prison, 579 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 3: just like everybody else. You know, Move not was in 580 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 3: prison for a long time, you know, and I have 581 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: all sorts of criticisms Moves. So at the end of 582 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 3: the day, we are all to the state equal enemies 583 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: and will be disposed of in the exact same way. 584 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: And that is one of the unifying motivators. You know. 585 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 3: Oh you asked about, you know, the importance of talking 586 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: to prisoners. I think something that I think about a 587 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 3: lot is that for as many people want to sort 588 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: of use the panther name, as many people want to 589 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: sort of talk about the importance of the panthers, and 590 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: who's allowed to sort of call themselves the panther or 591 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: sort of say that they are, you know, the inheritors 592 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: of that tradition the panther. You know, many of them 593 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 3: died in prison. We recently lost Jamille A. Lamine, who 594 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 3: was known as ah Trap Brown. He was mostly known 595 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 3: for being a spokesperson of Snick, but he was a panther. 596 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 3: You know, many panthers are still in prison. There are 597 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: panthers who are out but like bedridden, and known is 598 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: supporting them. 599 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: You know. 600 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: Part of why I think bird Song here in Philadelphia 601 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 3: was allowed to use the panther name was that he 602 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: was looking after an elder who is bedridden. You know, 603 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: this is sort of a rare thing that these elders 604 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: get any support. And you know, even that said, there's 605 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 3: people from even more recent uprisings to get no support. 606 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: We have people from the twenty twenty uprising who go 607 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 3: virtually unsupported in prison. And one of the things that 608 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 3: I really respect that's part of the anarchist movement is 609 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: the anarchist Black Cross, who is responsible for ironically, a 610 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 3: lot of panthers getting support, getting money, getting their you know, 611 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: the books filled, getting their writings printed. 612 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and whether or not they're anarchists. 613 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: Exactly, Like there are some people like Russell run Schoutz 614 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: who did not identify as an anarchist, but who recognized 615 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 3: some shared sort of values. You know, there's people like him, 616 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 3: But as you said, there's a bunch of people who 617 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: are not anarchists at all. Yeah, who the anarchist Black Cross, 618 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 3: I think rightfully recognized that they needed to support members 619 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 3: of anti colonial struggle with inside empire. So I think 620 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: that's great and you can look to them for some 621 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 3: of the more you know, the elders who are still 622 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 3: in prison and need support. There's Mongoose Distro who organizes 623 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: a bit of prisoner support for more, you know, younger people, 624 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 3: and they focus a little bit more on people who 625 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: are just illegalists, which I think is more than fine. 626 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: You know, yeah, so you don't have to look very far. 627 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: I think sometimes people complicate what a prison or support 628 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: looks like. It doesn't always need to be sending money. 629 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 3: People are forgotten about Dwayne Stats, who I mentioned. You know, 630 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: he's spending the rest of his life in solitary in 631 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 3: part because of the murder of the CEO, but also 632 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 3: because he does hunger strikes because of prison conditions. You know, 633 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: if you're an activist in prison, you're going to spend 634 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: a lot of time in solitary. Yeah, and people forget. 635 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 3: Family forgets these people. So just writing someone, just writing 636 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 3: someone on a regular basis and really respecting what that takes, 637 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: staying in contact, dealing with the interface is incredibly annoying. 638 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 3: Some people will write a bunch of people locked up 639 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 3: one time and it's you know, that's okay. But if 640 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: you just write one person consistently every week, I think 641 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: that helps enormously to their mental health. And I think 642 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 3: also something that I think that anarchists can be really 643 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 3: good about is understanding all the infrastructure that's required to 644 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 3: support militon action. The first comic I ever did for 645 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: the NIB was about going to Stone Mountain and trying 646 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 3: to have a respectful conversation with the Klan member and 647 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 3: going to jail and going to bookings. And the minute 648 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: I hit a squad car, I got put in a 649 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 3: squad car. There was someone there, you know, a goofy 650 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 3: person with a weird haircut, and real Tree was like, 651 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 3: what's your name? You know what I mean? So as 652 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 3: soon as I hit jail, the process of getting me out, 653 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: I only spent seven hours at bookings, a really short 654 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 3: period of time. It's one of the many things that 655 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: I don't always have a lot of cultural similarities with 656 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 3: a lot of anarchists that I meet. But I think 657 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: the thing that broadly keeps me connected to the community 658 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: was that these things have always been very very important 659 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: to anarchists that I know. And that's not always true 660 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: for socialist communists whatever. You know, they don't think about 661 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 3: prisoners of war, or they might even say, oh, well, 662 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: you know they did something Eagle, we don't support that. 663 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 3: You know right, very rarely do I see anarchists do that. 664 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 3: They'll go out of their way to looped in someone 665 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 3: totally unrelated and be like, hey, it's real cool. They 666 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: put a cone through a cough car. Let's get their 667 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 3: books filled. 668 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that feels like a good note to end on, 669 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: specifically the like not forgetting people who are in jail, 670 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: and also even that you point out that, like the 671 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty Uprising was only five and a half years ago, 672 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 2: Like this isn't just thinking back to sixties and seventies movements, 673 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 2: you know, And there are people who need support, and 674 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 2: so I guess that's my own plug here at the end, 675 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 2: is right prisoners. Yeah, and the anarchist Black Cross is 676 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 2: among the projects that does a good job of looking 677 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 2: for people to support and despite the name, again it's 678 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: not just only supporting anarchists. It's just you know, part 679 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: of its project. You got anything you want to plug, 680 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: like maybe a graphic novel that just came out that 681 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: The New York Times says is one of the best 682 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: graphic novels of twenty twenty five. 683 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 3: Yes, I got really under the wire, but yeah, my 684 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 3: book These Black Arms to Hold You Up it's out everywhere. 685 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: You can get it wherever. You can buy it from 686 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 3: me signed if you want to. I don't just trail 687 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 3: off into supporting anarchism in the book. My elders are 688 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 3: going to be so mad at me for that. 689 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: Now, you do a good job and also very well sourced. 690 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 2: Like the reading list isn't just to like, here's some stuff, 691 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: you actually annotate it and like it's good stuff. I 692 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 2: think if anyone who likes the show will like it 693 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: probably more than they like the show, because there's fewer 694 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 2: long asides and there's more calm men slowly being bonked 695 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 2: in the head by cops and then not taking it anymore. 696 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: That's the image that sticks with me the strongest from it. 697 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, Sophi, you guys. 698 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 4: Think you want to plug Coolzomedia dot com. 699 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, all right, we'll see you all next week 700 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: with more Cool People Who did whatever. The show title is. 701 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 3: Nice, Nice. 702 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 703 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, 704 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: visit our website Goolezonemedia dot com, or check us out 705 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: on the five or 706 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 4: Radio app hop a Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.