1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Brian Cooberger has agreed to take a plea deal, y'all. 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: He will plead guilty to. 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Murdering Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie. Now, a lot of 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: folks are shocked by this, but you know, we've been 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: talking over and over and I've said the same thing. 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: The defense has nothing. 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: They have zero that can counter the evidence against it. 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: The DNA, the knife, sheep, his car, his cell phone. 9 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it just goes on and own and they 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: cannot get rid of it no matter what they've tried. 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: And y'all, I just the group we've got tonight. I 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: am so grateful. 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: But we have got Sergeant Joe Jackaloone, NYPD, retired side 14 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: cold case, and I want to start with him. 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: Joe. 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: I cannot help but think of so many people involved 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: with this case. But the detectives, they have been on 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: this case for years. We all know the investigation does 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: not stop at a rest. 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: What do you think they thought when they got the news? 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: Oh boy? 22 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, Just from personal experience, the initial stages when you 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 4: get when you get notified by the district attorney about 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 4: something like this is frustration, even somewhat anger, because you 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 4: work so hard that puts this together, and like you said, 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 4: it just doesn't stop when you made the collar. You 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 4: just you keep on going. And now you're preparing for 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: court and they're studying, they're getting their their you know, 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 4: ducks in a row, and then the kind of have 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 4: the carpet ripped out from on them. But you know 31 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 4: what it's, it's it's frustrating, but it's also fleeting in 32 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 4: a way because a win is a win, and I 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 4: think that's you know, even though the district attorney takes 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 4: the plea and he gets that in his column, the 35 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 4: detectives have to pat themselves on the back too because 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 4: they made a prosecutable case, basically ironclad, So they should 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 4: be proud of themselves too. 38 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: That's true. I mean, a killer is off the street 39 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: at the end of the day. 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and he's a quadruple killer too. I 41 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 4: mean when you think of it that way, and from scratch, 42 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 4: from nothing, they were able to put this whole case 43 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 4: together through you know, surveillance, video, cell phone records, and 44 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 4: Internet records, right what I refer to as the three 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 4: forensic Horsemen, and it's and this case actually becomes you know, 46 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 4: part of a textbook lore and in regards to putting 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 4: together a prosecutable case with all these different aspects of 48 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 4: it and being able to make something out of nothing. Right, 49 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: when this case originally first, there was a lot of 50 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: people thought that this case would never be solved, let 51 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: alone and in a conviction. 52 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: And that's the other thing about the police work. He 53 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: had no connection to any of the victims, and they 54 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: were able to locate him and arrest him in seven weeks. 55 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: That's pretty extraordinary. 56 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 4: Yes, And I remember the day, the day before they 57 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 4: made the arrest, I was doing a news nation and 58 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 4: the chief was sitting in a chair and he was 59 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 4: sitting in there. He was leaning back, and I actually 60 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 4: said right there and knew. I said, that's a man 61 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 4: that doesn't have any worries. I think they have an 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 4: arrest coming soon. And it was just from the you know, 63 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 4: the nonverbal communication. I mean, this was a very stressful 64 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 4: case and then all of a sudden, the chief was 65 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 4: very relaxed. So listen, they need to pat themselves on 66 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 4: the back of the cops did a great job they had. 67 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 4: They worked well with the state partners, and they worked 68 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 4: well with the FBI. Unlike you see in television shows 69 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 4: where everybody's fighting and trying to take over. This was 70 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 4: a great collaboration. They put this case together, and like 71 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 4: I said, they made something ad enough. And and here 72 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 4: we are today talking about him taking a plea and 73 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 4: going to jail the rest of his life without an appeal. 74 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Amen, and y'all we've got reporter podcaster offer Susan Hendrix 75 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: with us. Now, Susan, I got to ask you you're feeling, 76 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: but not as a reporter or a podcaster or an author, 77 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: but as a mama. I mean, the worst possible thing 78 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: has happened, and you gear yourself up for this trial 79 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: where you're going to face this monster and read a 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: victim impact statement and try to articulate what he took 81 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: from you, and then you get an email. 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, the way they were notified, I can't imagine that happening. 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: Getting ready to go to this trial. 84 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: We saw it. 85 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: Cheryl in Delphie, day in and day out, being excruciating. 86 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: And as you know, Cheryl, each family heals in their 87 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: own way. If they ever fully heal, they don't. I 88 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: was lucky enough to get to know Ethan Chapin's mom, Stacy. 89 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: I reached out to her in twenty twenty three. I 90 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: was on a panel with her at Crime Con and 91 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: just a wonderful person, wonderful family, and she said, Susan, 92 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: we literally dropped the kids off at school and my 93 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: husband and I they were triplets and Hunter, and we 94 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 3: high fived and said we did it. And she said 95 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: and then of course the most horrific thing that no 96 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 3: one ever imagines. She said, we'd watch the news that 97 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: happens to other people. It doesn't happen to us, but 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 3: it does. And to turn it around, she said, look, 99 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: what we want to do is remember Ethan. And she 100 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: described him to me as kind and sweet and fun loving, 101 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: and that reminds me of Jack. So my mind immediately 102 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: goes there my son, who's nine years old, and you think, 103 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: how would I feel to get this news? And I 104 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: do know that her family because we were talking in 105 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, and I know obviously things have changed. 106 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 3: I believe she would have been there at the trial. 107 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: But she said, I nothing will bring Ethan back. So 108 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 3: she is going tomorrow with her family and they support 109 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 3: the plea deal. How they were told is horrific. But everyone, 110 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: it's hard to kind of guess how you would be 111 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: in that situation, and hopefully none of us feel that, 112 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: But we don't know. Would it be to not see 113 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 3: Brian Coberger's face face of evil, or would it be 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 3: to face him head on as we saw with Kaylee's dad. 115 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 3: So it's difficult to tell, and every family heals in 116 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: a different way, but the way it was handled and 117 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: so fast, I don't even think all the family members 118 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: can get there tomorrow. 119 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: But you know, I remember sitting in the court in 120 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: Delphi and me and you and my sister Charlene, you know, 121 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: we all three have children, and we watched the families 122 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: just you just I don't know your heart breaks for them. 123 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: It's unimaginable. But I know Charlene, she was not prepared 124 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: for Richard Allen to be standing right there. Like when 125 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: she realized he was less than six feet from her, 126 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: just standing talking to people, she couldn't believe it, Like 127 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: why is he not almost in a cage? Why is 128 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: he not like, you know, in one of those masks 129 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: where he can't see anybody or talk to anybody. She 130 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: just was stunned by that. And I think in some ways, 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: the family's been spared, that they've been spared a trial 132 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: in the stress of testifying. They've been spared having to 133 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: watch that monster. They've been spared publicly, having to hear 134 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: about autopsies, no chance for a mistrial, no chance that 135 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: you're going to have a hung jury. I mean, this 136 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: is a slam dunk. He's gonna be found guilty of murder, 137 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: four of them. But at the same time, I mean, Susan, 138 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: come on an email. 139 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: I know, And would I wonder, knock on wood, that 140 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: I ever have to feel that? But would I want 141 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: to face him? Would I want to scream at the 142 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: top of my lungs why Although we never really get 143 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: the right answer, never ever ever makes sense because that's 144 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 3: what people want to know, why and exactly what happened. 145 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: And that reminds me of Beth Holloway with she wanted 146 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: answers and she got that, and that was healing for her. 147 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: Allegedly she got it from Jurin Vanderslope. But everyone heals 148 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: differently or not, not only heels or not heels, but 149 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: gets through. It is able to get out of bed 150 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: because I remember Stacy saying it'd be easy to curl 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: up in a ball. I can't do that. I have 152 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: two other kids. They deserve a mom, so she had 153 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: to keep going obviously for them. 154 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: I'll tell you, y'all. 155 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: We also have the great feigned defense attorney, Linda Kenny Bowden. Linda, 156 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I just got to say it. His defense 157 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: attorney did her job, didn't she? 158 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 5: Uh? She most certainly did. She asked for a deal 159 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 5: and they got the deal. According to the letter that's 160 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 5: been shown from one of the parents to some of 161 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 5: the news reporters. Quite frankly, it's a little bit, although 162 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 5: it doesn't Here's why it surprised me from the very beginning, Cheryl, 163 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 5: and I think I mentioned this to you today, is 164 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 5: that the optics of her defending him from the first 165 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: day in court were not good. She sat very far 166 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 5: away from him. She didn't touch him in any way. 167 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 5: If you look at the optics, and I think I 168 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 5: talked to you about this, and when I sit next 169 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 5: to my clients, I'm not scared of them, it looked 170 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: like she was scared of him. So I didn't think 171 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 5: the optics were very good. But she brought in a 172 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 5: lot of people that could help her, and I think 173 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 5: she also had some aces in the hole. And this 174 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 5: is that number one. Several of the families would not 175 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 5: want to see their children's visation again in the courtroom, 176 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 5: the blood letting in the courtroom, the brutality in the courtroom, right, 177 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 5: so you know that the families felt differently about that. 178 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 5: I think the other thing is you had those young women, 179 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 5: especially the one young woman who saw Brian Coburger leaving. 180 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 5: We do not know what her life is like. It 181 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 5: is possible that testifying for her could actually destroy her 182 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 5: life even more than it already has. We don't know 183 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 5: where she's at psychologically, we don't know where she's at 184 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 5: in her healing. And so I think that the prosecutors 185 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 5: understood that and that if they can get a deal 186 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 5: that puts him away. And this face that's scary to everybody. 187 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 5: I don't think any one of us is ever going 188 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 5: to forget his face. I mean, Ted Bundy looks like 189 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 5: a choir boy next to Brian Coburger. They put him 190 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 5: in prison, and he's not going to be a celebrity 191 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 5: in prison. He is going to be persona non grata. 192 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 5: He is, in my opinion, in the category of Jeffrey Dahmer, 193 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 5: Whitey Bulger, the pedophile priests. That's where he is. So 194 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 5: every single moment in prison, he will be looking behind 195 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 5: him and he will become the stalk, not the stalker. 196 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 5: And I think the prosecutors know that, they understand that, 197 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 5: and whether or not to satisfies all the families, they 198 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 5: decided that this is the best resolution. 199 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: No, I think you make a great point. And I've 200 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: said the same thing about Jeffrey Dahmer. If Brian Coberger, 201 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: thanks taking the death penalty off the table has saved 202 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: his life, he could absolutely be incorrect. 203 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh yeah. And you know, this is we're 204 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 5: telling the truth here for people that don't want to 205 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 5: hear it. This is this is what happens, and this 206 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 5: is the truth. We're not saying that we want him 207 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 5: to be the victim in a prison assassination. We're just 208 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 5: saying the reality is he will be targeted as a 209 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 5: as somebody who has been in the news, a high 210 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 5: profile defendant who killed four innocent people, and he's going 211 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 5: to go into a prison system god knows which one, 212 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 5: but there's going to be gangs, there's going to be 213 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 5: a white supremacist, there's going to be different different factions 214 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 5: in that prison, and he may not have the protection 215 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 5: he thinks he has. 216 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: That's right, and if he had been convicted with the 217 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: death penalty, he would go on death row and have 218 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: a sale all by his self. 219 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 5: That's right. 220 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,359 Speaker 2: Now, he doesn't have that protection. 221 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 5: That's right. That's right. You need to have a lot 222 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 5: of more protection waiting for that firing squad that would 223 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 5: eventually happen when his appeals would eventually be denied if 224 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 5: he didn't die of old age first. 225 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: And y'all, we have the one and only defense attorney, 226 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: Kurt Nurmi. 227 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 6: How are you, honey, I'm doing awesome, Cheryl. 228 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you I want to hear 229 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: from you because a lot of people don't understand the 230 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: aftermath for the defense attorney. I mean again, cases like 231 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: this affect everybody that touches it. 232 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 2: It's not like you go. 233 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: Well, I saved his life, good for me, and you 234 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: move on. You have information and facts and horrific knowledge 235 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: you can't get out of your head either. 236 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, And there's so many different moments that 237 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 6: come to mind when we've had this discussion. We talk 238 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 6: about this because you know, I dealt with the death 239 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 6: penalty exclusively in a death penalty hotbed of Maricopa County 240 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 6: here in Phoenix for several years, and I remember, you know, 241 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 6: one of my first weeks there in the death penalty 242 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 6: unit having to go talk to a father whose child 243 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 6: had not committed any other crime in his life that 244 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 6: his son was facing the death penalty. And I've sat 245 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 6: in the rooms with the defendants telling them that they're 246 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 6: facing the death penalty. And you know, going into a 247 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 6: case like that, that the death penalty isn't charged if 248 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 6: the prosecutors don't have strong evidence, they just don't seek 249 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 6: the death penalty, if guilt isn't presumed. The other reality 250 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 6: of it is, Cheryl, is that a death penalty qualified 251 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 6: jury is more likely to convict than one that's not. 252 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 6: So you go into this proposition with the number one 253 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 6: goal being to save a life. And Linda talked about 254 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 6: some of the attorney, you know, relationship that Brian had 255 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 6: with his attorney, and I think that one of the 256 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 6: things that cannot go without being mentioned is the fact 257 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 6: that in order to save a life, in order to 258 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,119 Speaker 6: get this outcome, there has to be a relationship between 259 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 6: the attorney and the defendant because whatever awaits him now, 260 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 6: whatever the ills we're talking about, Linda mentioned in prison, 261 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 6: what have you, You've got to convince him that you've 262 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 6: done everything you can. You've got to show him that 263 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 6: you've done everything and that it if he goes to trial, 264 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 6: his fate will probably be death. Grow he has got 265 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 6: to trust you. He's got to believe he or she 266 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 6: has got to believe that every bit of work you've 267 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 6: done has been on their behalf. And there is an 268 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 6: investment in that that comes at the expense of the attorney, 269 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 6: right because you know, you're looking at you know, Brian Kolberg. 270 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 6: You're talking to his parents and his family and his 271 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 6: loved ones and maybe and I know people don't think 272 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 6: about this, but maybe his second grade teacher, maybe his 273 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 6: best friends from high school, because they could be mitigation 274 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 6: witnesses and there becomes an investment there that is long lasting. 275 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 6: And you talk about you know, one of the things 276 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 6: that happens in a lot of death penalty cases that 277 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 6: go to trial is a lot of the jurors have 278 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 6: PTSD because of what they see. They see crime scene photographs, 279 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 6: they see other things that they wouldn't otherwise see, and 280 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 6: the attorneys and the police officers and whoever different role, 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 6: they see a lot of that and they have to 282 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 6: talk about that and they have to be you know, 283 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 6: the police make an arrest and interrogate the defense attorney. 284 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 6: That's building that kind of relationship with the client, one 285 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 6: that hopefully leads to them taking a life. Plead is 286 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 6: one that really, you know, gets you close to madness, 287 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 6: close to sociocopy, whatever you want to call it, for 288 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 6: a long period of time. Because keep in mind, I 289 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 6: can't remember how many years this case is going, but 290 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 6: some of them extend years. And you're in that situation 291 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 6: with a person like Brian Colberg for years, and you 292 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 6: don't just wash that off and go home. 293 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: I had heard that he made a call to his 294 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: mama after the murders, and then of course we all 295 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: know the car trip he took with his dad going 296 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: back home. They would have to testify. So I believe 297 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying. To save them from having to 298 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: do that, he has another reason to take a plea. 299 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 6: That's exactly right, because you know a lot of defendants 300 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 6: in that situation, you uncover a lot about their life. 301 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 4: Right. 302 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 6: We don't know what got Brian Kolberg or to the 303 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 6: point where he is now, and a lot of that 304 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 6: means digging into some awful, dirty clauses that people don't 305 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 6: want to open up and don't want to see exposed 306 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 6: in the public light, and that can be a motivating 307 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 6: factor as well. But going back to my point earlier, 308 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 6: the attorney has to be willing to go there. They 309 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 6: have to be willing to talk to these people, talk 310 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 6: about how Brian got there. And you know, there's some 311 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 6: amazingly sad stories that you hear and you connect with 312 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 6: on both sides of the aisle because you know, you 313 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 6: know on the other side that there's some grieving families 314 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 6: and what have you. But your job is to save 315 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 6: that life. 316 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 5: The interesting thing about this to me, though, is that 317 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 5: if what we've seen is true, the the Coburger team 318 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 5: came to the prosecutors and said, you know, if you 319 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 5: take death off the table, we will you know, we 320 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 5: will plead guilty. Usually you'll sometimes see the reverse, You'll 321 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 5: see the prosecutors say, if we take death all the table, 322 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 5: will you plead guilty? So I don't know what it 323 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 5: was in the that the prosecutors felt they must felt 324 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 5: they must have some kind of possible weak link, And 325 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 5: I don't think it would be a weak link. I 326 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 5: think it's a concern link. For some of the witnesses 327 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 5: on that prosecution side, and maybe if I were the prosecution, 328 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 5: I'd say I'd accept that, but I want I want 329 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 5: a complete statement of accountability. I want to be able 330 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 5: to just like you mentioned, Holloway, I want to be 331 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 5: able to grill your client before because my understanding is 332 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 5: he's not going to have to elocute and say that 333 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 5: the project that his team will say something, or the 334 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 5: prosecution will say something that he sees pleading guilty, but 335 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 5: he's not going to have to do that full elocution 336 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 5: confession in court. And quite frankly, the one thing that 337 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 5: if I were the parents I would be wanting to 338 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 5: wanting is I'd want answers to my questions as to 339 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 5: how exactly he picked my child, how exactly my child died, 340 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 5: why did he do it, what made him do it 341 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 5: that night, what was it in him that caused him 342 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 5: to grow up like this? I'd want those answers to them. 343 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 5: And that's one of the things that could upset as 344 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 5: you see two of the families with regard to Coburger. 345 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 5: I had a friend, Andy Astroy. He is a well 346 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 5: known author and a producer, and all his wife was 347 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 5: murdered Adrian Shelley, and he actually went to the prison 348 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 5: after about ten years where the killer of his wife 349 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 5: was incarcerated, and specifically asked those questions. It was heart wrenching, heartbreaking, terrible, 350 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 5: but he hadn't gotten them early on and he wanted 351 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 5: to know the answer. So I think that the families 352 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 5: not only had their laws, they have that and that's 353 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 5: one of the things that's going to It won't blow 354 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 5: off the steal, but it's going to make this steal 355 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 5: harder for everyone to swallow because two of the families 356 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 5: aren't behind it. 357 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: Linda, that's an excellent point, Kirk, you want to weigh 358 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: in on that. 359 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 6: Yeah. One of the things I was going to say, 360 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 6: what's common to my experience is that what typically happens 361 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 6: in a case like this, and we talked about the lawyer, 362 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 6: is that once the lawyers, if the lawyers can convince 363 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 6: their client, the defense attorneys can convince their client to 364 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 6: accept a plea offer for life, which is the most 365 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 6: typical resolution. What is delivered to the prosecutor along with 366 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 6: that plea is all the mitigating evidence that they have 367 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 6: researched that and by all the mitigating evidence that means 368 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 6: they basically are required to research their client's life from conception, 369 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 6: because there's any in utero issues, drugs or alcohol, feed alcohol, 370 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 6: cynem etc. All the way up to the day of 371 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 6: their sentence. They put that together is what's called the 372 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 6: mitigating mitigation packet, and the real issue isn't related to 373 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 6: the case, the underlying case. The real crust of this 374 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 6: is you might not be able to get the death 375 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 6: penalty because of these issues. Therefore, here's a resolution that 376 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 6: we have with our client, because generally, in my experience, 377 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 6: prosecutors aren't going to offer life unless they know that 378 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 6: the client is willing to accept it. So that there 379 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 6: is a reaching out process from the defense attorneys with 380 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 6: all this mitigating evidence, and then the prosecutor will go 381 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 6: to the families and some of the answers that we're 382 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 6: talking about. If there's psychological analysis, which there would be 383 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 6: in typically a mitigation packet, the prosecutor is going to 384 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 6: have some insight on that and certainly shouldn't be done 385 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 6: through email, but could obviously share that with the families 386 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 6: as well. So it's a little what I've experienced is 387 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 6: a little different than what Linda referenced and you. 388 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: Know, Susan, I worked with a man, John Crass, and 389 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: he was so fantastic. But he told us once we 390 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: had a real bad case coming up, and he said, listen, 391 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: sometimes you never know what happened, and sometimes you know 392 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: exactly what happened, and they're both horrible, Like there's no 393 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: winner if you never get an answer or if you 394 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: get an answer. And I have found him to be 395 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: absolutely accurate on that. And you know, for you, you 396 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: know you're going to be sitting in court. You're always 397 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: in court. You're you know, sometimes chasing these cases. And 398 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: I agree with what Joe was saying earlier. You don't 399 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: get out of this thing unscathed either. I mean, look 400 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: at how your life changed with Delphi. You went to 401 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: cover a story, fell in love with a family, and 402 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: then watch them navigate this horrific trial where they were 403 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: even accused. 404 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: Of doing it exactly. 405 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 3: And I mean, that is such another level of the 406 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 3: world we live. And I always say, the good thing 407 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 3: about having a podcast here, a YouTube channel is everyone 408 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: has a voice. And the bad thing is is that 409 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 3: everyone has a voice. And it's just pathetic that they 410 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 3: are able to do that. And that's a whole other 411 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: layer of this. And I'm friends with Kirk and got 412 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: to know him well, and of course we covered the 413 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 3: Jodi Arias trial. But as you were talking, Kirkham thinking, 414 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 3: oh gosh if this was being set in court, because 415 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 3: my gut reaction is to say, I don't care about 416 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: what his child was like. I don't care if he's 417 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 3: afraid to face his mom who may take the stand. 418 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: And I know you weren't defending him, but you were 419 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: speaking up about specifics of the law, as was Linda. 420 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 3: But I'm just infuriated to think, what a coward, you 421 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: know what, what a coward? You're not scared and I 422 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: believe he's guilty and he's pleading that. Now you're not 423 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: afraid to slaughter for innocent people, but you are afraid 424 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 3: of death. Wouldn't you want it or not? I mean, 425 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: so the anger for me is brewing. I wonder what 426 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: it will be like tomorrow when they have to go 427 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: in and see I did hear. I was watching Brian 428 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: Enton online and who's a fantastic reporter, and he was 429 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 3: talking about how he wasn't sure but he heard that 430 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: Kaylee's father may not go in tomorrow. So everyone has 431 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 3: their own barometer of what they can take and when, 432 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 3: and of course the family thinking of his dad. We 433 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: all saw Cheryl as he mentioned that car ride with 434 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 3: his father. I mean, it's not their fault, but just 435 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 3: to look at him and you know what, I would guess. 436 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 3: He doesn't say a word. He says what he has 437 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 3: to say, the minimum amount, and he goes on his 438 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 3: merry way. 439 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you one thing, and let me be 440 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: extremely clear. If you dance with the devil, he will lead. 441 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, if he takes this deal, is self servant, 442 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: whether it's to protect his mama or daddy from having 443 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: to testify against him, whether it's keeping his sister from 444 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: telling what he was like when he was a kid. 445 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: Because Brian Coburger is the type of person. If he 446 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: were to be in a bar and Susan, me, you 447 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: and Linda go in to have girls' night, we all 448 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: instantly know he's a weirdo. 449 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: He's a creep. 450 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: That's not something he hid, that's not something I don't 451 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: think can argue with me about. You can see it 452 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: in his life since high school. So, like Linda again, 453 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned things sometimes sound callous, but here's the bottom line. 454 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: For the family. And this is the part that is 455 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: kind of I think, throwing people, and it does sound 456 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: callous and horrible, but at the end of the day, 457 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: this is the prosecution's call. And Kurk, let's talk a 458 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: little bit about the the opportunity that he may or 459 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: may not be given to give facts. The first person 460 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: I thought about was Btk. I mean, he stood and 461 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: told it, this is what I did, this is how 462 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: I did it, when I did it, and too who 463 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: I did it. So do you not think that's going 464 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: to be on the table here? 465 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 6: Well, I think it depends on when we're talking about Cheryl, 466 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 6: because he will, you know, enter a change of plea, 467 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 6: which is typically pretty routine. There will be a factual 468 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 6: basis laid either by the prosecutor his defense attorney, or 469 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 6: perhaps the judge just will say, well, list the elements 470 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 6: of offense and he will agree that he did those offenses. 471 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 6: I think that's all we're going to see at a 472 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 6: change of plea hearing. The question will be when he 473 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 6: gets to sentencing and has a chance to elocute, to 474 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 6: address the court, the families and the victims have a 475 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 6: chance to you know, say their piece, make him listen 476 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 6: to what they want him to hear. He can respond 477 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 6: in his elocution by in any method he wants to, 478 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 6: or he can remain moved. So that is all up 479 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 6: to him. 480 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: Y'all have such varied backgrounds, but your opinions are so solid. 481 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: And here's what I really hope. I hope people can 482 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: hear what we're saying to say. Look, he ain't going 483 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: to be that safe. He's trying to pull an oak dope, 484 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: but it might end up biting him in his own ass. 485 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: That's just the bottom line. And Jeffrey dahmeran the only one. 486 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: He's just one that I know. People remember what he 487 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: did and then what happened to him. So here's one 488 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: thing that I kind of struggled with. Nancy asked me 489 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,239 Speaker 1: this morning about if this had happened to one of 490 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: my children, what justice am I looking for? 491 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: Well, here's the bottom line. 492 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: If you're saying what could happen to him, that would 493 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: be justice for Huck or Caroline. Nothing what you would 494 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: take from me, There's not a chance of restitution. There 495 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: is no punishment. Mid evil enough, heinous enough for him. 496 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: And I understand, you know Kaylee's dad, I do he's 497 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: been mad from day one. He's going to be mad 498 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: the day they put him in the ground. 499 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: I get it. 500 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean I've often said y'all that if something happened 501 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: to Hunt Caroline, I'd burn this town down, and. 502 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: I would happily. 503 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: You know, they'd be like, is that a fire behind you? 504 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: You damn straight as a fire behind me? 505 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 6: Right? 506 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 5: I bro the toundown if it happened to my. 507 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: Dog, That's what I'm saying to you. 508 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: I media forget my child, and Linda, I would help you. 509 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: It's like if somebody says, why do you love Walt? 510 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: I mean, when people say, oh, he's my best friend, 511 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: it's more than that. It's so much more in that 512 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: I can't even put it into words. 513 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: And that's how I feel, even if it's fake, like. 514 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: Me and Linda, I mean, just bring some matches and 515 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: y'all join us, because that's what's happening. We write it down, 516 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: We write it down. So I'm just gonna ask the 517 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: three of y'all because Serge had to leave, but you know, 518 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: Linda and Kurt and Susan, how do we advocate for 519 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: this family? They feel slighted, They feel like we were 520 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: all geared up for this fight, and we wanted justice 521 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: for Xanna and Ethan and Kaylee and Maddie, and now 522 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: we're Dad Gummet not gonna get it. 523 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: I think back to Delphi and I remember the day 524 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: of victim statements, and they were the most powerful statements 525 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 3: I had ever heard from Becky Kelsey's was read. Also 526 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: Abby's grandmother Diane, and that mattered, and they needed to 527 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 3: do that, and that was healing, and I saw it firsthand. 528 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 3: I believe at the end of July, when they will 529 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 3: have the chance the families to read victim impact statements, 530 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: I think that's when I would like to watch his 531 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 3: face and look at that frightening face. And I remember 532 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: something that always stood out to me where Libby's sister 533 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 3: Kelsey said, I wasn't in the beginning, of course very 534 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: depressed because she dropped the girls off at the bridge 535 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: and of course losing her sister, and she said I 536 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: wasn't going to let him kill me too. And I 537 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 3: think that that's what I got from meeting Stacy saying 538 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 3: I'm not going to let this person kill me. My 539 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 3: husband and his siblings, Ethan's two siblings, Hunter and Mazie, 540 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: and So I do want to end on this that 541 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: there is a foundation called Ethan's Smile and she started 542 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: it and she aworeds scholarships to other kids Ethan's age 543 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 3: in his honor, and that's how she says what keeps 544 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: her going. So it's all about what keeps you going. 545 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: And of course I'm not saying by any means do 546 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: I know that it's easy to heal. I have no 547 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: idea what these families are going through, and everyone deals 548 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 3: with it differently, but you can't let them kill you too. 549 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: And I think, and I hope that you are right, Cheryl, 550 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 3: that this nothing will ever be easy, for this evil, disgusting, 551 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: just human, barely human. So I think at the families 552 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 3: and I hope that the victim impacts statements on that day. 553 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: That that does help them, Amen, Kurt. 554 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 6: What a lot of people don't think about is how 555 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 6: even if the data Idaho achieved the death penalty, even 556 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 6: if they were to get that verdict, that the appeal 557 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 6: would last on average statistically ten or fifteen years, meaning 558 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 6: the case would go go And that fifty percent of 559 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 6: death penalty sentences are overturned based on some form of error, 560 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 6: whether that's error on the part of the judge, the prosecutor, 561 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 6: or the defense attorney. My hope for the families is 562 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 6: that getting to that point of having a victim impact 563 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 6: statement and knowing that it is truly the end can 564 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 6: help give rise to closure and healing at a much 565 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 6: faster pace than do they have to deal with appeals 566 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 6: for the next ten or fifteen years. 567 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 5: Linda, I don't think anything we can say to them 568 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 5: is going to make them heal. But I think as 569 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 5: a society, the one thing that we talk about a 570 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 5: lot and we never follow through is how do we 571 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 5: end up with these people like the Ted Bundys. And 572 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 5: I'm not talking about the Parklands shooter. I get that, 573 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,479 Speaker 5: how he ended up with the you know in Florigna. 574 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 5: How do we end up with this what we perceive 575 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 5: is just plain evil of the Brian Cobergers, And we 576 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 5: don't have an answer. And until we get that answer, 577 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 5: there's going to be other families who are going to 578 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 5: feel like this. And it's not like I'm not saying 579 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,479 Speaker 5: that one death is more important than another, because every 580 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 5: homicide victim, murder victim's death is important to their family. 581 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 5: The family are the ones who are greeting more. The 582 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 5: children are kind of out of their pain. They don't 583 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 5: even know now what happens. The families have that pain 584 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 5: until the day they die. So we need to find 585 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 5: out how we eliminate this evil from the world so 586 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 5: that future families don't have that pain. And I think 587 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 5: that we have to look at it in that broader scope. 588 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 5: And if I'm the family though, however, I want to 589 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 5: be able to have access to him, to ask my 590 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 5: questions to him directly. I want to know until the 591 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 5: day I die, I will seek that truth from Brian Coburger. 592 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: Well stated Joe, Susan Kurk, Linda, thank you, thank you 593 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: so much. You're going to just share so much light 594 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: on this for so many people, and I appreciate all 595 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: of you. I'm going to end Zone seven the way 596 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote depression, no interest, 597 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: in activity, constant thoughts of suicide, crazy thoughts, delusions of grandeur, anxiety, 598 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: poor self image, poor social skills, no emotion. When I 599 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: get home, I'm mean to my family. This started when 600 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: the visuals snowed it. I felt no emotion, and along 601 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I 602 00:34:53,080 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: want with little remorse Brian Coburger, May twenty eleven. I'm 603 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and this is zone seven mm hmm