Speaker 1: M hey everybody. Robert Evans here and for the last
Speaker 1: two years, Behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland
Speaker 1: Diaper Bank, which provides diapers for low income families. Uh.
Speaker 1: Last year y'all raised more than twenty one dollars, which
Speaker 1: was able to purchase one point one million diapers for
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Speaker 1: year we're trying to get two dollars raised for the
Speaker 1: Portland Diaper Bank, which is going to allow us to
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Speaker 1: you can go to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper
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Speaker 1: Uh We're back, we are. This is Behind the Bastards
Speaker 1: a podcast posted by you Evans Coma, Robert and our
Speaker 1: guests Todays Durante Comma Caitlin, it's me. I'm back hot
Speaker 1: Dog show. Enough. Um so, how how are we doing? Caitlin?
Speaker 1: I am doing all right, learning a lot about Max.
Speaker 1: No not I know it's hard not to write, it's
Speaker 1: difficult not to He's just in my brain more than
Speaker 1: John Landis. But learning a lot about John Landis. And uh, also,
Speaker 1: I uh went to John Landis's IMDb because earlier I
Speaker 1: was like, I couldn't name a single John Landis movie,
Speaker 1: has he even made anything? And then turns out so
Speaker 1: many movies that I have seen. He's an incredibly influential director.
Speaker 1: Actually turns out he's done some stuff good for him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like Isis You gotta give him credit for a couple
Speaker 1: of things, for being active in the pursuit of their goals.
Speaker 1: And also, John Landis famously conquered a sizeable chunk of
Speaker 1: northern Syria. Don't talk about that as much, Robert task
Speaker 1: at hand that I'm always working on the task at hand,
Speaker 1: which in this case is talking about John landis Is
Speaker 1: Twilight Zone movies. So the climax of landis Is segment
Speaker 1: of the Twilight Zone movie was notably the only really
Speaker 1: big action set piece of the movie. Right, there's not
Speaker 1: any other like war scenes or really like even all
Speaker 1: that action e scenes. Right, Like there's some cool ship
Speaker 1: especially in Joe Dante's bit, but like this is the
Speaker 1: this is the only thing with like big explosions and
Speaker 1: shut and stuff. So one Slate article I found alleges
Speaker 1: that it was quote an excuse for director John Landis
Speaker 1: to capture immense explosions on film. Um. There have been
Speaker 1: allegations that the pyrotechnics that he was ordering people to
Speaker 1: use were illegally large. Um. I can't speak to that,
Speaker 1: but I found nothing that makes me doubt the basic analysis,
Speaker 1: which is that John Landis had not gotten to direct
Speaker 1: a war movie yet and he kind of used this
Speaker 1: as an excuse to do a big, gritty war movie.
Speaker 1: This is a feature film because it's one of four,
Speaker 1: it's like a thirty minute chunk of the feature film
Speaker 1: basically less really, I think probably more like twenty. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's weird that he got so obsessed with like making
Speaker 1: a Vietnam scene that was like brutally accurate in the
Speaker 1: middle of this Twilight Zone movie. Um, it's kind of
Speaker 1: a baffling call. Um. So yeah. The dude that he
Speaker 1: has flying the helicopter in this critical scene is the
Speaker 1: incredibly named Dorsey Wingo. Uh. And Dorsey is a Vietnam
Speaker 1: veteran who had flown choppers in combat. Right so he's
Speaker 1: you would think, pretty qualified for this very experienced pilot,
Speaker 1: but he was really new to making movies, and during
Speaker 1: rehearsals he was deeply rattled by how close the explosions
Speaker 1: were getting to his aircraft. And again, this is a
Speaker 1: guy who's been in combat in a helicopter who was
Speaker 1: scared by how close the explosions are to his helicopter. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And again, if you are directing a movie with a
Speaker 1: helicopter getting shot at and your combat veteran pilot is like, hey,
Speaker 1: this seems dangerous, you might be like, perhaps we're making
Speaker 1: a mistake. Because this is a movie and not the
Speaker 1: Vietnam War, things may be going a bit far um.
Speaker 1: John Landis does not have this moment of realization, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: So in normal circumstances, Window probably would have said something
Speaker 1: about the fact that he was deeply frightened by how
Speaker 1: the explosions were getting close to his helicopter. But he's
Speaker 1: really new to movies, right. He had been working with
Speaker 1: helicopters after Vietnam for years, but he hadn't been in film.
Speaker 1: This is kind of like his first chance that like
Speaker 1: becoming a Hollywood stunt pilot. And again, doesn't want to
Speaker 1: upset John Landis and get blacklisted. So Wingo, you know,
Speaker 1: since he can't, he doesn't feel like he can safely
Speaker 1: go to John Landis. He goes with his concerns to
Speaker 1: the unit production manager, a guy named Dan Allingham, and
Speaker 1: he tells Dan that the pyrotechnics are way too close
Speaker 1: to the aircraft. Allingham agrees, and he says, hey, obviously
Speaker 1: like safety first, right, Like we'll we'll change things to
Speaker 1: make it safer. I'll go to John and I'll tell
Speaker 1: him we need to make some alterations. So Allingham uh
Speaker 1: later tells Wingo and the camera operator Roger Smith, who
Speaker 1: also complained that everything's fine. He spoke to Landis and
Speaker 1: during the next scene, they're just going to be flying
Speaker 1: over the water filming thick in the kids, like they're
Speaker 1: not going to have actors on the ground alongside explosions,
Speaker 1: like they'll He's worked it out with Landis. But then
Speaker 1: later that same day, when John Landis walks past Wingo
Speaker 1: and another crew member discussing how terrifying, lee hot and
Speaker 1: close the fireballs had been during the last time they'd
Speaker 1: filmed the scene, Landis smiled and told them you ain't
Speaker 1: seen nothing yet. So Landis is well aware of how
Speaker 1: dangerous this scene was, but he wants this shot. He
Speaker 1: has a very specific vision for how the SHOT's going
Speaker 1: to go, so he has associate producer George Folsey, who's
Speaker 1: his number two man, basically go to the parents of
Speaker 1: the children on set and warn them. So you know,
Speaker 1: they have explosions on this set, And if you have
Speaker 1: explosions on a film set, you have to have like
Speaker 1: a firefighter dude, right who's like your safety guy. And
Speaker 1: in this case, the guy who's the firefighter dude has
Speaker 1: also worked in like child protective services adjacent stuff in
Speaker 1: the past, so Landis knows, oh shit, if this guy
Speaker 1: finds out that we have a six and a seven
Speaker 1: year old illegally working at night with explosions, he's going
Speaker 1: to stop it right like, like as he rightly should.
Speaker 1: So he has George Folsy go to the parents of
Speaker 1: these kids and tell them, quote, if the fireman approach you,
Speaker 1: please tell them that you are not working for us,
Speaker 1: Say you are my friend, you are here to help me.
Speaker 1: Don't tell them anything about the money or the children working. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to spend a lot of time focusing
Speaker 1: on things the parents did wrong because spoilers, this ends
Speaker 1: in tragedy. But I will say, as a parent, if
Speaker 1: that conversation has had with you on the set of
Speaker 1: a film, time to time to get out, time to
Speaker 1: get time to get rolling right along, that you know
Speaker 1: it sounds like impending doom is right around the corner.
Speaker 1: I will say. Only one of the parents has is
Speaker 1: a fluent English speaker, so the other parent um doesn't
Speaker 1: understand what Folsy is saying. So Folsey gets an Asian
Speaker 1: friend who is on the cast to repeat it to
Speaker 1: her in Vietnames, But the parent is Chinese, so so
Speaker 1: Folsi's Vietnamese friend just winds up repeating the message slowly
Speaker 1: in English. So at least one of the parents probably
Speaker 1: doesn't fully understand like what Folsy is doing here, right um,
Speaker 1: and how fucked up things are now, as you might
Speaker 1: have begun to expect. By this point, neither Landis or
Speaker 1: Folsy had done a very good job of letting either
Speaker 1: set of parents know how dangerous the scene was going
Speaker 1: to be. Right They were not adequately informed of the risks.
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, the pilot was not adequately like finds
Speaker 1: out how dangerous this is when they're doing the test
Speaker 1: passes in terms of exploding next to him, right, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from the book outrageous Conduct again. In
Speaker 1: these conversations, Folsey would summarize the final scene, mentioning that
Speaker 1: there would be explosives, but xsuring the parents that the
Speaker 1: explosives would be nowhere near the children. Folsey was clearly
Speaker 1: nervous about the illegal hiring. He had always been an honest,
Speaker 1: decent person, and he did not feel comfortable breaking the law.
Speaker 1: Another secretary in the office, Cynthia and I, remembers Folsey
Speaker 1: coming out of one meeting with Landis and production manager
Speaker 1: Dan Allingham. They had been discussing the hiring of the children,
Speaker 1: and as he left the office, Folsey joked nervously, will
Speaker 1: probably all be thrown in jail for this. Schuman claims
Speaker 1: that she asked Folsey at one point what the penalty
Speaker 1: was for working children without permits. As she recalled the
Speaker 1: conversation later, Folsy applied to her a slap on the
Speaker 1: wrist and a little fine. Unless they find out about
Speaker 1: the explosives, then they'll throw my butt in jail. So
Speaker 1: Landis and Folsy and Allingham are all very aware that
Speaker 1: they are like committing a serious crime here right now
Speaker 1: on the night of July two. Vic Morrow, who's again
Speaker 1: playing like the male lead in this right, he's supposed
Speaker 1: to be rescuing these kids from the this This helicopter,
Speaker 1: Um and both children, Renee and Micah were placed in
Speaker 1: position at Indian Dunes Park for like a test run
Speaker 1: of the scene. Uh Indian Dunes is where at this
Speaker 1: point a ton of Vietnam More movies had been filmed.
Speaker 1: Here's how a Rolling Stone article at the time describe
Speaker 1: the geography of this area. The park is actually a
Speaker 1: private property enclosed by steep chaparral covered cliffs. At the
Speaker 1: base of one of those cliffs, on the south shore
Speaker 1: of the Santa Clara River, a shallow, slow moving stream
Speaker 1: that irrigates orange and avocado grows. A few miles to
Speaker 1: the west, a Vietnamese village had been assembled out of
Speaker 1: bamboo poles, palm thatch and cardboard. Right, so that's kind
Speaker 1: of the scene. They're gonna blow this village up. Right
Speaker 1: as the kids and in Vic Morrow are like standing
Speaker 1: in like this this stream with the helicopter strafening them,
Speaker 1: the whole village is supposed to explode, right so both
Speaker 1: kids are nervous because explosions are scary too small children
Speaker 1: as our helicopters, and to adults, yeah anybody. Vic Morrow,
Speaker 1: being a nice guy, makes a bunch of funny faces
Speaker 1: to try and relax them, and he's so successful at
Speaker 1: this that the kids start laughing hard enough that they
Speaker 1: can't stop when Landis wants to start filming, so he
Speaker 1: has to halt the scene and yell at the kids
Speaker 1: to stop laughing. The shooting goes well this night because
Speaker 1: again there's not explosions, um and then the parents are
Speaker 1: given five dollars each and envelopes under the table and
Speaker 1: told to bring their kids back the next night. July
Speaker 1: nineteen two is the night that they are set to
Speaker 1: film the final scene of Vic Morrow rescuing both kids
Speaker 1: by carrying them across the river while a US helicopter attacks.
Speaker 1: He was supposed to say, I'll keep you safe, kids,
Speaker 1: I swear to God, as the village explodes behind them.
Speaker 1: As the parents of both children sit watching the final
Speaker 1: scene unfold, Renee's mother asks is it dangerous and Folsey
Speaker 1: says no, not dangerous, just a loud noise. At two
Speaker 1: twenty am, John Landis calls action. He yells fire, fire, fire,
Speaker 1: as two machine gunners pump blank rounds into the river.
Speaker 1: James Camomile, the pyrotechnician, begins setting off a series of explosions.
Speaker 1: It is immediately obvious that these are even larger and
Speaker 1: closer to the helicopter than the ones that had previously
Speaker 1: frightened the pilot. And as the pilot is zooming in
Speaker 1: over these explosions with the kids underneath them, Landis starts
Speaker 1: yelling at him, screaming over the mic, lower, get lower.
Speaker 1: Mikeah Lee's father, Daniel, who was a Vietnam War veteran,
Speaker 1: says that the blasts reminded him of real rocket detonations. Quote.
Speaker 1: I was so horrified. I was screaming the second blast,
Speaker 1: I fell down on the ground. I cried God. I
Speaker 1: was so fearful, and I knew danger. It was not
Speaker 1: something made up, but real danger. So Landis just keeps
Speaker 1: telling the helicopter to get closer. Two of the explosions
Speaker 1: detonate very like basically right on the chopper, close enough
Speaker 1: that they have an effect, not unlike anti aircraft fire.
Speaker 1: The National Transportation Safety Board, in their analysis, would later
Speaker 1: conclude quote the probable cause of The accident was the
Speaker 1: detonation of debris laden high temperature special effects explosions too
Speaker 1: near a low flying helicopter, leading to foreign object damn
Speaker 1: to one rotor blade and de lamination due to heat
Speaker 1: to the other rotor blade, the separation of the helicopter's
Speaker 1: tail rotor assembly, and the uncontrolled descent of the helicopter.
Speaker 1: The proximity of the helicopter to the special effects explosions
Speaker 1: was due to the failure to establish direct communications and
Speaker 1: coordination between the pilot who was in command of the
Speaker 1: helicopter operation, and the film director who was in charge
Speaker 1: of the filming operation. So the helicopter goes down right,
Speaker 1: the explosions damage it, and it crashes. Now, Landis had
Speaker 1: wanted the explosions to be close to the helicopter, and
Speaker 1: he had wanted that helicopter hovering right over the heads
Speaker 1: of Vic and the children for the same reason. He
Speaker 1: wanted the scene to look intense and frightening. His vision
Speaker 1: for the movie now led to a calamity. While roughly
Speaker 1: a hundred people watched, the helicopter plunged into the river,
Speaker 1: The right skid crushed six year old Renee, killing her instantly.
Speaker 1: The craft then toppled over on its side, cutting Vic
Speaker 1: Morrow and the seven year old Mica in half. There's
Speaker 1: footage on this, you can find it on YouTube. It's
Speaker 1: not gory, but you see the chopper because the water
Speaker 1: kind of covers it. You see the chopper hit them.
Speaker 1: It's pretty fucking terrifying. Like je, if you want to
Speaker 1: have knowledge of what that looks like, you can see it.
Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, Um, but I mean okay, So when
Speaker 1: I said horses maybe died or maybe people, it was
Speaker 1: it was the people and it was um, two of
Speaker 1: which were young young children. Yeah, two of which together
Speaker 1: did not add up to fourteen years of age. Oh horrible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is it's pretty bad, horrible yeah. Um. And also
Speaker 1: all there's six people in the helicopter, right, because there's
Speaker 1: folks filming too. They're all hurt, right, none of them die, thankfully,
Speaker 1: but they're all injured. Um, because helicopter crashes aren't great
Speaker 1: for your health. So this is about the worst thing
Speaker 1: you could watch happen as a parent. Yeah, It's not
Speaker 1: not a lot that I could imagine being higher on
Speaker 1: that list. Um. So there's obviously in the immediate aftermath
Speaker 1: of the crash, their silence, right as everyone kind of
Speaker 1: like grapples with what has happened, and then Renee's mother
Speaker 1: begins to scream. John Landis, who, being the guy that
Speaker 1: John Landis is, still feels a need to act as
Speaker 1: if he's in control of the situation, says, that's a rap.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? It's it's now. It's one of
Speaker 1: those things. He goes on to say, like, leave your
Speaker 1: equipment where it is. Everyone go home, please, everyone go home?
Speaker 1: Like right, obviously someone needs to announce that, like filming
Speaker 1: is over. I guess I don't know, someone needs doing
Speaker 1: out something for what. I don't think the right thing
Speaker 1: to say is that's a rap. I just don't. I
Speaker 1: really don't think that's the right thing to say after
Speaker 1: you have gotten two children and a stunt man killed killed.
Speaker 1: Not the right thing to say at all. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: John Landis m M. But on the other hand, we
Speaker 1: got animal House out of his career, so who can
Speaker 1: say it was worth it? And then okay, so then
Speaker 1: I he goes on to direct, um, what did is sorry,
Speaker 1: I have a bunch of a bunch of will talk
Speaker 1: about some of the ship. He goes on to direct
Speaker 1: just a little bit. But you know what we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about right now, Caitlin, Is is it products
Speaker 1: and services? Yeah? And the products and services in this podcast, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: not once have they been involved in a fatal helicopter accident.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. That's that's the absolute guarantee we make, um,
Speaker 1: unless corporation winds up, uh ever, supporting us, in which
Speaker 1: case they've been responsible for a lot of deadly helicopter accidents. Um.
Speaker 1: But that's the problem will cross when we finally get
Speaker 1: that big sponsorship. But I've always thought we're more of
Speaker 1: a podcast, right Sophie. I find you to be so annoying. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what else is annoying? Not having the great taste?
Speaker 1: M m? Are you really doing an adverb? That's good
Speaker 1: right now? Like they don't haven't done anything bad, because
Speaker 1: that's why I said the great taste of unlike the
Speaker 1: terrible helicopter crashy taste of products. So they're Sophie Robert
Speaker 1: stilling for an ad break. It sure is. We're back, Caitlin.
Speaker 1: How are we doing? I'm doing good? Um? Okay, So
Speaker 1: after this he directs the Thriller music video. She sure
Speaker 1: does direct the thriller music video. Um, what are the
Speaker 1: things I'm familiar with? Three Amigos he directs, which is
Speaker 1: a movie. Another unpopular opinion that I have is that
Speaker 1: that movie sucks. I hate hate. There's like twenty good
Speaker 1: minutes in that whole movie, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: ship in between. Do not like it? Um Coming to America? UM,
Speaker 1: trade right before or at least it's released before Twilight
Speaker 1: Zone movie one of the fucking um. One of the
Speaker 1: write ups about this disaster, I found, like, really ships
Speaker 1: on Coming to America? I think just because it's like
Speaker 1: the first big hit Land has had after the accident, which,
Speaker 1: like I don't get like, I think it's my recollection
Speaker 1: was Coming to America is perfectly fine movie? One of
Speaker 1: the better Eddie Murphy movies. UM. I tend to agree. Yeah,
Speaker 1: except for Shrek and of course three, and of course
Speaker 1: Shrek and of course Shrek four. Yeah. How many Shreks
Speaker 1: did we wind up getting? There are four and a fifth?
Speaker 1: One is I think past development. I think it's soon. Well,
Speaker 1: this this is the best chance we've had in years
Speaker 1: of getting another Austin Powers movie. Wait, Shrek five, hang on,
Speaker 1: this is we just have to pause because this is important.
Speaker 1: Shrek five. Uh oh. According to fandom, Shruck five might
Speaker 1: be released on September two. Uh it sounds like really
Speaker 1: good information that is definitely probably correct. Anyway, we can
Speaker 1: move away from Shrek. I guess I mean no, um
Speaker 1: this the I actually plan to just talk about the
Speaker 1: Shrek movie, which has a pretty titanic body count. Um,
Speaker 1: although that's primarily because in order to get some of
Speaker 1: the shots they needed, they had to back a brutal
Speaker 1: civil war in Ecuador. But you know the Shrek franchise, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the only way you could get that realistically rendered
Speaker 1: of a donkey. Um. So you know, John Landis gets
Speaker 1: two children and Vick Morrow horribly killed, um, really terrible
Speaker 1: debts um. And you know this is gonna cause problems, right. Um.
Speaker 1: Hollywood is pretty good at at smoothing some things under
Speaker 1: the under the table, right, but this is this is
Speaker 1: a problem, right, This is a big story. Yeah, children
Speaker 1: cut in half by helicopters are gonna There's gonna be
Speaker 1: some legal stuff that's gonna come out. Yeah a little bit.
Speaker 1: So the wheels of justice, or what passes for the
Speaker 1: wheels of justice start to churn up after this. The
Speaker 1: first court cases that kind of get resolved at least
Speaker 1: our lawsuits from the families of the children who get killed.
Speaker 1: The Chin family file on August three, and name both
Speaker 1: John Landis and Steven Spielberg. Cause again, Steve Spielberg is
Speaker 1: producing this alongside John Landis, right, he is, he is
Speaker 1: involved in this whole thing. We will talk some more
Speaker 1: about the degree to which maybe he's culpable here, because
Speaker 1: it's very murky. Right, he immediately leaves the country. Um,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that more in a second. Um as
Speaker 1: does um. Oh god, what's her name? That Kathleen lady
Speaker 1: who wound up running Marvel what sort? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's sack. Let's sack. I don't care about that. Behind
Speaker 1: the scenes people in movies. Kathleen Kennedy who was also
Speaker 1: produce she also fucking books it, right, Like, both Spielberg
Speaker 1: and Kathleen Kennedy are like, because you know, we should
Speaker 1: probably not be around for this. I don't want to
Speaker 1: get involved in. Um. So Yeah. The first court cases
Speaker 1: that follow this our lawsuits from the families of the
Speaker 1: Slane children. The Chin family files on August three, and
Speaker 1: they name yeah, Lands and Spielberg, as well as uh
Speaker 1: Folsy and Wingo. Um Folsey is the assist a producer
Speaker 1: and Windows the pilot in their request for damages. Michael
Speaker 1: Lees family file suit a year later. These all do
Speaker 1: get settled out of court. Um. Now, one for an
Speaker 1: example of kind of the crapulence of big studios, when
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is named in the Chin lawsuit, because right
Speaker 1: there they have some culpability to their law firm argues
Speaker 1: that the studio not be liable because quote, the risk,
Speaker 1: if any risk there was, was knowingly assumed by the
Speaker 1: decedent Renee shiny Chin, who was again six choking me
Speaker 1: right now? Yeah, first off, the risk if any there was.
Speaker 1: You can't have if any there wasn't there when three
Speaker 1: people have been cut to pieces by helicopter rotors. Okay,
Speaker 1: Like you can't say was there really a risk there
Speaker 1: was a risk that everything about that sentence is wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unbelievably like it's a strong case that entertainment lawyers
Speaker 1: should be boiled. Um. Yeah. So these civil lawsuits are
Speaker 1: all eventually settled. We don't really know like what kind
Speaker 1: of money the families get. I hope it's a lot.
Speaker 1: Like you know, but we don't really know. But of
Speaker 1: course that doesn't end kind of the legal stuff around this,
Speaker 1: because three human beings have died gruesome deaths. Two of
Speaker 1: them are children who have been hired illegally, So the
Speaker 1: state of California needs to determine if there was any
Speaker 1: criminal liability for the accident. District Attorney John Van de
Speaker 1: Camp assigned prosecutor Gary Kesselman to the case, and an
Speaker 1: l A p D. Sheriff's detective assisted the investigation. Found
Speaker 1: the things that I have noted already. Um, they find
Speaker 1: like Folsey saying, oh, I'll go to jail for this.
Speaker 1: They find that, you know, the children have been illegally hired,
Speaker 1: that this has been hidden from the fire safety officer.
Speaker 1: So they they're like, well, there's enough here to convene
Speaker 1: a grand jerry for fucking share um, which you know,
Speaker 1: one of the rare times I'll be like, yeah, that
Speaker 1: l A. Sheriff's deputy was more or less right. Um.
Speaker 1: So they convene a grand jury. Um. And when you
Speaker 1: convene a grand jury, that means that there's enough evidence
Speaker 1: that there's something wrong that you're gonna bring the people
Speaker 1: involved in front of a jury. And have them be questioned, right,
Speaker 1: and then the jury is going to decide we indict,
Speaker 1: which means like do we actually charge people with a crime? Right? Um?
Speaker 1: So they Folsy winds up in front of the grand jury.
Speaker 1: Um who he says that in front of the grand jury.
Speaker 1: Folsey says, in retrospect, it would have been better to
Speaker 1: shoot the helicopter and the actors at separate times, which, no, ship,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you can see that, buddy. Yes, in retrospect,
Speaker 1: it would have been better to not do the thing
Speaker 1: that got three people killed. There was adequate technology at
Speaker 1: the time that yeah, you can like superimposed two there
Speaker 1: was together if you could, I mean, if you could
Speaker 1: have explained the concept of a helicopter in there was
Speaker 1: adequate technology for them to have said, no, this sounds
Speaker 1: like a bad idea. Yeah, oh no, wonder everything is
Speaker 1: c g I these days. As much as I love
Speaker 1: a practical effect, if it puts anyone in danger, you
Speaker 1: could have had a practical effect and like puppets like
Speaker 1: there's what that Pieters have done scenes like this that
Speaker 1: did not endanger human life, right, at least not children, right,
Speaker 1: Like that one of the things that happening here is
Speaker 1: that like, no one's getting charged or even like attempted
Speaker 1: to be charged with um with um vic Morrow's death
Speaker 1: because as questionable as some of the decisions made, he
Speaker 1: was an adult who chose to be in a really
Speaker 1: a situation he knew was dangerous. You know, UM's still wild.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're still fucked up. But like these are children,
Speaker 1: they cannot and honestly their parents can't consent to put
Speaker 1: them in that danger. You're not allowed to do that
Speaker 1: their children, and they're not given any of the information.
Speaker 1: And children are famously uh, not very good at advocating
Speaker 1: for themselves nor fully understanding. I mean, so much of
Speaker 1: our society exists to stop people from doing things like
Speaker 1: this to children. Um. This is why you can't put
Speaker 1: them in coal mines anymore. So, UM, I'm gonna quote
Speaker 1: for more on how this grand jury goes from Crime
Speaker 1: Library quote. John Landis testified and blamed underlings for the tragedy.
Speaker 1: He said that he had assumed Stewart and Wingo had
Speaker 1: worked out the coordination of their jobs. He did not
Speaker 1: make certain of it because I assumed if these men
Speaker 1: are experts licensed by the government to do their jobs,
Speaker 1: they've done their jobs. Kesselman pressed on as to why
Speaker 1: he did not make sure they talked, because when you
Speaker 1: get into a taxi, Landis replied, you assumed the driver
Speaker 1: is not going to drive you off a bridge. It's
Speaker 1: just assumptions. The guy is a licensed taxi driver. These
Speaker 1: are experts. Later, the prosecutor began the final authority in
Speaker 1: terms of camera, actor positions, helicopter or whatever on that
Speaker 1: set is not mine. Land Is broken because if I
Speaker 1: asked an actor, I said, would you please take your
Speaker 1: hand and stick it at this garbage disposal? The actor
Speaker 1: is going to say, of course not. So he's accepting
Speaker 1: absolutely no accountability. No, no. The director should be the
Speaker 1: ultimate authority on set, but also should have no responsibility
Speaker 1: when things go wrong. Right, Oh my gosh. He as
Speaker 1: you've said, was like, no, these these explosions need to
Speaker 1: be closer. You ain't seen nothing yet, like he was
Speaker 1: constantly despite many people protesting and saying this is not safe,
Speaker 1: this is dangerous, this is going to lead to bad things.
Speaker 1: He was like, but my vision realism. I must make
Speaker 1: a perfectly accurate Vietnam War scene in this Twilight film
Speaker 1: movie movie about a time traveling racist, embarrassing what a loser.
Speaker 1: He sucks for sure. Um, he's he's definitely a thing
Speaker 1: so bad, you know what. Poopy, That's what I'll say,
Speaker 1: Caitlin to quote me, loftus p poo poo wow wow
Speaker 1: powerful powerful to the award winning Jamie loftus p p poopoo.
Speaker 1: Who I am feuding with just the hypocrisy of yeah,
Speaker 1: being like, uh no one questioned me. The choice I'm
Speaker 1: making is the best. I have ultimate power and control here,
Speaker 1: and then when something goes wrong, well I did, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I assumed it was. They didn't say anything.
Speaker 1: If it was, it was the helicopter operator. Such a
Speaker 1: fucking fucking putting explosions and there's next to him. Definitely
Speaker 1: a case we made that the helicopter operator and the
Speaker 1: pyrotechnician have some degree of culpability here. Right, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying they don't because they are professionals, and the fact
Speaker 1: that they could have suffered career consequences from complaining doesn't
Speaker 1: mean they shouldn't have said something. Right. Um, But again,
Speaker 1: the director is the dictat e of the film set.
Speaker 1: He has absolute power. That is less the case now
Speaker 1: because of this accident. We'll talk about that in a
Speaker 1: little bit, but at this time he has absolute power.
Speaker 1: The buck stopped with John Landis, or at least it
Speaker 1: should have, right. Um. He was the motherfucker who was
Speaker 1: making the calls here. Um. And it's kind of like
Speaker 1: he keeps he compares it to a taxi driver and like, well, look,
Speaker 1: it's not my fault if I hire a cab driver
Speaker 1: any crashes. Like well, okay, but if you hire a
Speaker 1: cab driver and then you force him at gunpoint to
Speaker 1: do body shots while driving the cab and then he crashes,
Speaker 1: you you are responsible for that car crash. Actually, um,
Speaker 1: because he wouldn't have been drinking if you had not
Speaker 1: been forcing him to do it. Um. Which is not
Speaker 1: to say that it's wrong to force your cab driver
Speaker 1: at gunpoint to drink. That's a that's a fun time.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not party. It is a cool party time
Speaker 1: and cab drivers love being forced to do shots. That's
Speaker 1: the motto of this show. It is not threaten a
Speaker 1: cab driver anyway. Um. It could be Sophie, allegedly, it
Speaker 1: could be so Obviously A grand jury indicts the ship
Speaker 1: out of John Landis Um, along with Folsey and Allingham.
Speaker 1: They are charged with manslaughter in the deaths of Renee
Speaker 1: and Mica. Again, they're not being charged for Vic Morrow's death.
Speaker 1: The charges are based on the fact that the deaths
Speaker 1: had occurred during the commission of an inherently dangerous, unlawful act,
Speaker 1: and that unlawful act was the illegal hiring of children. Right,
Speaker 1: So the fact that they're getting charged with manslaughter, that
Speaker 1: manslaughter charge relies entirely on the fact that those children
Speaker 1: were legally being employed. Right, Does that make sense? That's
Speaker 1: why Morow that no one's getting charged for Morrow's It
Speaker 1: makes sense because I understand what you're saying, But it
Speaker 1: also doesn't make sense because it should just be illegal
Speaker 1: to Yes, I'm not trying to everything that happened on
Speaker 1: this set. You know, the law is the law. It
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with mora. I'm trying to explain, like,
Speaker 1: this is legally what's going on. Right. Um So, again,
Speaker 1: the crime is not just that they got people killed.
Speaker 1: It's that those people, the people they got killed, could
Speaker 1: not legally have been on that set when they got killed.
Speaker 1: That's what makes it not just an accident, but out
Speaker 1: it adds like the criminal responsibility. Um So, Kesselman decides
Speaker 1: not to try and get an indictment against these guys
Speaker 1: for the illegal hiring of the children itself or having
Speaker 1: them work past curfew. Um. These would have been slam
Speaker 1: dunk convictions. Obviously they were blatantly guilty. Um. But both
Speaker 1: would have had like ten day maximum jail sentences. Um,
Speaker 1: because they're more like yeah, because it should like illegally
Speaker 1: having kids work at night and stuff isn't like a
Speaker 1: serious crime on its own. Um, it's not like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not like hard time or whatever. And Kesselman, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna like make a stance on whether he made
Speaker 1: the right call or not. The reason he doesn't go
Speaker 1: for these slam dunk convictions alongside manslaughter is he's worried
Speaker 1: that if the grand jury has the chance to like
Speaker 1: indict these guys on something easy that's lighter than manslaughter,
Speaker 1: that they'll go with the easy charges and they won't
Speaker 1: go for manslaughter. Again, it's like the prosecutor in this
Speaker 1: he's he's you're always playing kind of a game with
Speaker 1: the jury here. I'm not a law expert. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to give an opinion on whether or not this
Speaker 1: is a good call. But this is the call that
Speaker 1: he makes right. Um. So the case churns, churns forward.
Speaker 1: And while this is happening, obviously the dead people are
Speaker 1: having their funerals because that's what you do when people
Speaker 1: get killed. Um. In one of the most unfucking hinged
Speaker 1: moments in Hollywood history, John Landis decides to attend all
Speaker 1: three ceremonies, all three funerals. Yep. Is he super apologetic?
Speaker 1: Now there was some speculation but that he was advised
Speaker 1: too much. Did he go in he was super apologetic? No, no, Sophie,
Speaker 1: that's a fun question. Absolutely not. But he does do
Speaker 1: the opposite of that. Um. There is speculation that his
Speaker 1: lawyers advise him to not just show up, but to
Speaker 1: speak at the funerals in order to seem deeply hurt
Speaker 1: by what has happened. Um. Now, in all cases, the
Speaker 1: families beg him not to come. Right, like nobody wants,
Speaker 1: John land has at these fucking funerals. You know, not
Speaker 1: only does he come, but he makes a speech at
Speaker 1: least at Vic Morrow's funeral. And I'm gonna quote now
Speaker 1: from a write up by Dick Peabuddy, who's one of
Speaker 1: Morrow's friends. They'd work together in a bunch of stuff
Speaker 1: before um, and he's a close enough friend that Peabuddy
Speaker 1: winds up as a pallbearer at more Morrow's funerals. So
Speaker 1: this is this is Dick Peabuddy's recollection of the funeral.
Speaker 1: I rode with them, them being Morrow's family, to the funeral,
Speaker 1: and sat with them in the section of the chapel
Speaker 1: reserved for family. Moments after we arrived, an audible shock
Speaker 1: wave of reaction from Vick's friends and co workers who
Speaker 1: come to pay their respects, grabbed my attention. A thin,
Speaker 1: bearded man was coming down the aisle, seemingly unable to
Speaker 1: walk without assistance. He was supported by a woman and
Speaker 1: another man, Miss John Landis and George Folsey Jr. The
Speaker 1: production manager of the Twilight Zone movie. The bearded staggerer
Speaker 1: was Twilight Zone director John Landis. His stooges helped him
Speaker 1: to the lectern, and he began a rambling eulogy, unplanned, unrequested, unwanted,
Speaker 1: and shocking to Vick's family and friends. His mere presence
Speaker 1: at the funeral was offensive to them. He did this,
Speaker 1: presumably on the advice of his attorney. The most obnoxious
Speaker 1: remark he made, among many, was that he was proud
Speaker 1: to have directed Vic and what Vic himself considered the
Speaker 1: best performance of his career. Vic's girlfriend and his ex wife, Barbara,
Speaker 1: both said that Vic thought the movie was a piece
Speaker 1: of ship and he was ashamed to be connected to it.
Speaker 1: So I cannot confirm whether or not John Landis was
Speaker 1: telling the truth or or Dick pebody was telling the
Speaker 1: truth about how Vic felt about this movie. It is
Speaker 1: worth noting that multiple other accounts back up Dick's retelling
Speaker 1: of events. In fact, some of them sound worse. According
Speaker 1: to several accounts, Here was the full text of what
Speaker 1: land has said. Tragedy can strike in an instant, but
Speaker 1: film is immortal. Vic libs forever. Just before the last take,
Speaker 1: Vic took me aside to thank me for the opportunity
Speaker 1: to play this role. Now, Caitlin, if you had to
Speaker 1: calculate in a lab the worst eulogy to give after
Speaker 1: getting three people killed in a helicopter accident, could you
Speaker 1: do better than this? I think he absolutely nailed giving
Speaker 1: the worst eulogy imaginable, like the balls number one to
Speaker 1: get up and speak and say anything, but I'm sorry
Speaker 1: and my life means nothing now, um Like he's one
Speaker 1: thing to get up and say, at least he was
Speaker 1: the best thing he ever did. My movie was his
Speaker 1: best moment. Unbelievable. The I I cannot even begin to
Speaker 1: comprehend the size of the ego. You have to have
Speaker 1: to do something like that. We need to have a
Speaker 1: law wherein if like a certain number of people vote
Speaker 1: that a situation is deserving of a motherfucker getting hit
Speaker 1: in the face with a brick, then it's legal to
Speaker 1: hit them in the face with a brick. And I
Speaker 1: think this would be my yardstick, right like if I'm
Speaker 1: arguing the Supreme Court, like what is the bricking, Like,
Speaker 1: what is like the threshold for a bricking? Like right here,
Speaker 1: somebody should have hit John Landis in the face with
Speaker 1: a brick. That would have been fine. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it was according to it seems fine that he was.
Speaker 1: He had the most dangerous film set. Unbelievable. Like so,
Speaker 1: I think it's also worth noting at this point, as
Speaker 1: we have a couple of times, sometimes accidentally, which is
Speaker 1: usually how people refer to this dude, that John Landis
Speaker 1: has a on Max Landis, who we will discuss briefly
Speaker 1: at the end. Now, Max directed the film Chronicle and
Speaker 1: most infamously the Will Smith flop Bright. Since he was
Speaker 1: pretty active online at one point big Reddit guy Max Landis,
Speaker 1: people on Reddit would often like troll him by bringing
Speaker 1: up the fact that his dad got three people killed,
Speaker 1: and Max blew up at them at one point. In
Speaker 1: a fairly famous post among Max Landis Nowher's and one
Speaker 1: of the things he stated was that it's really fucked
Speaker 1: up for people to accuse his dad of having killed
Speaker 1: one of his best friends. Now that's bullshit. I have
Speaker 1: come across no evidence anywhere that Vic Morrow and John
Speaker 1: Landis were close. Most accounts seemed to show that Mora
Speaker 1: was somewhat scared by the director and certainly worried about
Speaker 1: what upsetting him might do for his career. A friend
Speaker 1: I think would be comfortable telling a friend, Hey, I
Speaker 1: am worried about the explosions that you were putting next
Speaker 1: to me. Right um now, I don't. I actually don't
Speaker 1: think I'm not one to go to bad for Max Landis.
Speaker 1: I don't think Max Landis is lying here. I think
Speaker 1: this is what John Landis had to tell his son
Speaker 1: in order to like try and preserve like some sort
Speaker 1: of I don't know what tone to use here, but
Speaker 1: like my guess is that is the lie that John
Speaker 1: Landis told Max Righte that like again I were great friends,
Speaker 1: and like he understood the risks and you know, it
Speaker 1: was just a tragic whatever. That's my guess here. So
Speaker 1: for the other funerals and for what happened at them,
Speaker 1: I'm going to turn again to that right up by
Speaker 1: Crime Library quote. At Renee chins funeral, a gray faced
Speaker 1: John Landis, being held up by his wife and friend
Speaker 1: showed up to pay his respects. The child's relatives fixed cold,
Speaker 1: accusing stairs at the director, except for Renee's mother, who
Speaker 1: was sobbing. Landis also went to Micha Lee's funeral, the
Speaker 1: boys choir to which Mica had belonged, saying his favorite him,
Speaker 1: Jesus loves all the children of the world. There is
Speaker 1: no question that the accident traumatized the director for several
Speaker 1: weeks after it, he was heavily medicated. At one point
Speaker 1: he called a confidante and wondered if he would ever
Speaker 1: be able to ask anyone to take even the simplest direction.
Speaker 1: So I will admit, first off, when I wrote this,
Speaker 1: I I missed understood that as John Landis asking them
Speaker 1: to sing that him. I think they're saying that that
Speaker 1: was Mike's favorite him, So I will delete my objection
Speaker 1: there um. But like it's this, he's clearly doing a
Speaker 1: bit right. Every funeral he has the same people carry
Speaker 1: him in. He's acting right like he is. He's putting
Speaker 1: on a show for the court primarily and for his
Speaker 1: own future career to like seem less like a monster here.
Speaker 1: But it's the same show every time, like being carried
Speaker 1: in because you can can't and among other things, it's
Speaker 1: just basic ethics, right, really minimal human decency. If you
Speaker 1: are going to a funeral and it is someone you
Speaker 1: knew that died, but not like someone super close in
Speaker 1: relation to you, you do not act more distraught than
Speaker 1: that person's parents or children or loved ones, right, Because
Speaker 1: it's about them, right, It's not about you. If it's
Speaker 1: just like someone you knew, where it's like your friend's
Speaker 1: mom or something, you don't go there and like collapse
Speaker 1: because it's about them, and that's putting more ship on them, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's kind of fucked up to do, you know,
Speaker 1: don't act more devastated, You don't, certainly, as the director
Speaker 1: of a film that these kids you've known for two days.
Speaker 1: Are and you don't act more distraught than their fucking parents,
Speaker 1: you know, And you don't draw attention to yourself by
Speaker 1: giving like you don't do you don't. First of all,
Speaker 1: you don't go, John, don't. You shouldn't. Obviously you shouldn't go.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't go to these these fears if you do
Speaker 1: feel some need because you actually are, are written with
Speaker 1: legitimate guilt, which he clearly is not. Um, you slink in,
Speaker 1: you stand in the back, You don't draw any attention
Speaker 1: to yourself, and then you bail apiece out even that's questionable,
Speaker 1: but like, absolutely don't do this. Absolutely don't do any
Speaker 1: of the things that he did. What a performative piece
Speaker 1: of shit. Now, the good news, Caitlin, and I know
Speaker 1: you're concerned about this, is that killing three people and
Speaker 1: being actively involved in a manslaughter trial does not hurt
Speaker 1: his career, does not hurt his career. Um, while the
Speaker 1: case unfolds, which takes like three years, he directs four
Speaker 1: films and takes on a number again, as we've talked
Speaker 1: about Hi, he directs the thriller video like Yeah, doesn't
Speaker 1: get a lot more high profile than that. Probably still
Speaker 1: like the biggest music video ever made in terms of
Speaker 1: it's like cultural impact. He also directs the Eddie Murphy
Speaker 1: hit Coming to America, which is somewhat less influential. Now
Speaker 1: there's a fun story with Eddie Murphy and and John
Speaker 1: Landis that we're going to tell him a bit. But first,
Speaker 1: you know what won't show up to the funerals of
Speaker 1: its victims and make it about them, these products and
Speaker 1: our Services Corporation sher won't. We has labor activists executed
Speaker 1: in Latin America. They don't show up at those funerals.
Speaker 1: Do They bomb them? Sometimes allegedly allegedly, but they don't
Speaker 1: show up. Here's ads We're back. Uh. So Eddie Murphy
Speaker 1: and John Landis were friends at one point, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: they've been in some stuff together. Um, you know, uh
Speaker 1: and and and they're good enough friends that in the
Speaker 1: wake of this tragedy, Um, Eddie goes to Paramount because
Speaker 1: he you know, Coming to America is like a script
Speaker 1: that comes to him first. Right, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: get into the weeds of like how it gets made,
Speaker 1: but right, he's he's wanting to make this movie, and
Speaker 1: he makes Paramount hire John Landis and give him a
Speaker 1: million dollars and final editing rights on the film, um,
Speaker 1: which is more than they want to spend. And he
Speaker 1: does it because Landis is his friend and Eddie Murphy
Speaker 1: wants to give his friend to win. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying Eddie's not a questionable dude, because this is a
Speaker 1: questionable moral decision, but it's being a good friend. You
Speaker 1: can't deny that, you know, um, which is not being
Speaker 1: a good person. But it's at least Eddie. Eddie is
Speaker 1: a guy who will go to bat for his friends.
Speaker 1: This does show that. Um. So what's funny about this
Speaker 1: is that Eddie Murphy really does John Landis a solid
Speaker 1: and then John Landis treats him like utter ship the
Speaker 1: entire time they're making this movie. Is just a nightmarish
Speaker 1: douche bag to this guy who is like saving his career.
Speaker 1: It's a really weird call. Eddie Murphy talks about this
Speaker 1: in a Playboy interview, and I'm gonna read an exerpt
Speaker 1: from that now and again for an idea of the
Speaker 1: tone of this. This is a Playboy interview, so Murphy
Speaker 1: is gonna be saying some questionable things later on after
Speaker 1: he got the job he brought along an attitude. He
Speaker 1: came in with this, I'm a direc actors ship. I
Speaker 1: was thinking, wait a second, I fucking hired you, and
Speaker 1: now you're running around going you have to remember I'm
Speaker 1: the boss, I'm the director. One of his favorite things
Speaker 1: was to tell me when I worked with Michael Jackson,
Speaker 1: everyone was afraid of Michael, but I'm the only one
Speaker 1: who would tell Michael fuck you. And I'm not afraid
Speaker 1: to tell you fuck you. And sure enough he was
Speaker 1: always telling me fuck you, Eddie. Everyone at Paramount is
Speaker 1: afraid of you. So that's weird. And also again, like
Speaker 1: you really want to be the dictator of the movie
Speaker 1: when nobody's gotten killed. Um, but suddenly it's a it's
Speaker 1: a team project when three people die. Huh, that's fun.
Speaker 1: Um yeah. Um. So I'm not gonna get two into
Speaker 1: the weeds on this interview, but it has some incredible
Speaker 1: lines from Eddie Murphy that really adds some context to
Speaker 1: the filming of a classic comedy quote. What first put
Speaker 1: a bad taste in my mouth about him was when
Speaker 1: after he hired co stars Shari Headley and all these
Speaker 1: other people, I said, I wanted to take everybody to dinner.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody, but Landis grabbed Headley and said,
Speaker 1: you stay away from Eddie. Don't go hear him, because
Speaker 1: he's gonna fuck you and ruin my movie. He just
Speaker 1: wants your pussy. I'm thinking, wait, oh no, this has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with being a fucking director. He's a
Speaker 1: control freak. Just assuming that I was trying to get
Speaker 1: the pussy is one thing. Even and even if I
Speaker 1: was trying to get the pussy, for him to try
Speaker 1: to stop me getting it because he was directing the movie,
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of nerve. Plus, it wasn't even
Speaker 1: about pussy. So again, Murphy right, like, you know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't even a plus, it wasn't even about I do
Speaker 1: kind of suspect Eddie Murphy planned on hitting on her,
Speaker 1: but it's still not. It's still fucked up for John
Speaker 1: Landis to just say that, like, yeah, he seems what
Speaker 1: a power hungry Yeah, fucking he's a ship. Now this
Speaker 1: all culminates like the only like eventually Eddie just like
Speaker 1: threatens to beat the ship out of him and things
Speaker 1: calmed down. But they have not talked since. Like Eddie
Speaker 1: Murphy has hated John Us ever, since um, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about him at the drop of a hat. Anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: back to the trial. So, being a giant piece of ship,
Speaker 1: Landis and his lawyers opted for a strategy in which
Speaker 1: the above the line people blamed everything on the below
Speaker 1: the line people. Now in Hollywood pire lance, above the
Speaker 1: line workers are actors, producers, directors. That there's the big names, right,
Speaker 1: the actual technical people, the crew folks, pilots, stuntman, pyrotechnicians,
Speaker 1: all that stuff there below the line. So Landis, because
Speaker 1: again a bunch of above and below the line people
Speaker 1: have gotten charged here with manslaughter, Landis wants to blame
Speaker 1: the folks responsible for pyrotechnics and the pilot um for
Speaker 1: everything that's happened. That's his plan to throw his people
Speaker 1: under the fucking bus. Also, no wonder there's like a
Speaker 1: director get like becomes one of these just like power
Speaker 1: hungry maniacs, because just just like language like that, Like
Speaker 1: if you come to a set and you see that
Speaker 1: there's a hierarchy like that and then you realize you're
Speaker 1: at the you're at the top of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean it just speaks to how shitty
Speaker 1: a person is. Inherently if they just are in that situation,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm above all these people. Look at
Speaker 1: all these below people there are below me, and look
Speaker 1: at how below they are, and I can exploit them
Speaker 1: and manipulate them, and also the whole system because like
Speaker 1: a lot of these lower people who get charged don't
Speaker 1: work again, or at least not for years. Right, And
Speaker 1: this doesn't have that problem because you can write below
Speaker 1: the line. People have a stink to them because three
Speaker 1: people died. Um. But Landis makes money, so there's no
Speaker 1: real consequences for him career wise. I hate it. So
Speaker 1: for an example of how utterly crapulent these defense tactics were,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from Crime Library Ry quote Braun.
Speaker 1: His defense attorney, called Landis an artist and praised his
Speaker 1: Twilight Zone segment as a cinematographic statement against racism and bigotry.
Speaker 1: He also gave a strangely cynical reason for the casting
Speaker 1: of the children. Children are classically used in films other
Speaker 1: than his principles. He opined in order to evoke emotion
Speaker 1: in an audience, because adults generally don't like one another,
Speaker 1: but everyone likes children. Kesselman called Shayan Hui Chen to
Speaker 1: the stand. Renee's mother spoke through an interpreter. She cried
Speaker 1: as she talked about watching her daughter die. So this
Speaker 1: is like a nasty, nasty case. Um. The jury eventually
Speaker 1: finds Landis and his fellow defendants not guilty of manslaughter.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is like the same kind of
Speaker 1: ship you hear in like the O. J. Simpson trial,
Speaker 1: Like they're picking apart. Like someone will say, well, I
Speaker 1: heard them say we're going to get arrested for doing this,
Speaker 1: and then someone say, like, well, who said it? When
Speaker 1: did you hear it? Like as possible they like, it's
Speaker 1: it's all about like creating whatever doubt you can. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of theories as to why the jury acquits them.
Speaker 1: People will argue it's because Landis was famous or whatever.
Speaker 1: Um uh, I don't know. Um, it's worth noting like
Speaker 1: a master manipulator. So yeah, and he's got a lot
Speaker 1: of money to put in, and so does the studio.
Speaker 1: The studio puts a lot of money into his defense.
Speaker 1: The Monday after he's acquitted, UM, John Landis appears on
Speaker 1: Good Morning America to celebrate. He invites all twelve members
Speaker 1: of the jury to attend to the premiere of Coming
Speaker 1: to America, which they do so fun fact about Coming
Speaker 1: to America if you like that film, that is wild.
Speaker 1: Now there are some like minor fines and some censure
Speaker 1: from like industry organizations and ship after the trial, but
Speaker 1: John's career again just plows forward. Um. The main personal
Speaker 1: consequence he faced, aside from his son getting dragged on Reddit,
Speaker 1: was the end of his friendship with Steven Spielberg, who
Speaker 1: again bounces for a while to be and they they
Speaker 1: based at the studio because like, there's initially an attempt
Speaker 1: to get him to like testify because he was the
Speaker 1: producer on this movie too, and the studio is basically
Speaker 1: like he's too important to testify, and the court's like okay, wow, okay.
Speaker 1: I think the same thing basically happens with Kathleen as well.
Speaker 1: So before you think too positively of Stephen, it is
Speaker 1: worth noting again he is the producer of this movie
Speaker 1: as well. He is also responsible for the safety of
Speaker 1: the actors in this film UM, and for insuring things
Speaker 1: like the illegal hiring of child actors for an explosive
Speaker 1: helicopter scene do not occur. There are allegations that Spielberg
Speaker 1: was on set that night. UM. I have not found
Speaker 1: any substantiation of them, and those allegations are printed by
Speaker 1: people who were who talked to folks who were on set.
Speaker 1: I haven't heard them directly from people who were on set. Um.
Speaker 1: Spielberg has claimed that the interviews in interviews that the
Speaker 1: tragedy made me grow a little, which is a weird
Speaker 1: thing to say. Uh. In the wake of the disaster,
Speaker 1: he issued a statement, I was never at the Indian
Speaker 1: Dunes location of Twilight Zone on the night of the accident,
Speaker 1: or at any other time. Now. To follow up to that,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from the book Outrageous Conduct. That
Speaker 1: too sentence letter marked the complete extent of spielberg sworn
Speaker 1: statements on the Twilight Zone case. Joe Dante, who directed
Speaker 1: a segment that had nothing to do with the Landis episode,
Speaker 1: had to give a deposition in one of the civil cases. Spielberg,
Speaker 1: who was the producer of the entire movie, did not
Speaker 1: do even that much. Nevertheless, Tom Bud's argues that there
Speaker 1: was no compelling reason to interrogate Spielberg. There is no
Speaker 1: indication that Spielberg even knew anything about the hiring of
Speaker 1: the children. So I don't know. You can feel however
Speaker 1: you want about Spielberg in this he never talks to
Speaker 1: Landis again, like they're they're they're not buds anymore. I
Speaker 1: don't know how much like blame to throw his way.
Speaker 1: A number of other directors do come out and like
Speaker 1: basically say, fucking John Landis is a murderer. After this,
Speaker 1: like there are some directors who like really go to
Speaker 1: the mat to condemn him. In fact, I actually pull
Speaker 1: a couple of those up. Um Brian de Palma um
Speaker 1: is one. He's a guy who directed Carry Right and
Speaker 1: the Untouchables said quote, I don't think Landis was railroaded.
Speaker 1: It's difficult to imagine putting all those elements in one place. Helicopters, explosions, children,
Speaker 1: night shooting, and not treading a very thin line. That's
Speaker 1: a combination you would try to steer clear of. Helicopters
Speaker 1: by themselves are very dangerous, even with very experienced stunt people,
Speaker 1: and as soon as you have inexperienced people in a set,
Speaker 1: you are adding to the danger. Landis's actions were definitely excessive.
Speaker 1: When asked why so many directors had rallied behind Landis
Speaker 1: to Palma answered, I have no idea. Maybe they're afraid
Speaker 1: of being sued. Um, So that's Brian cool. James L. Brooks,
Speaker 1: who directed Terms of Endearments, also uh issued a statement
Speaker 1: if you hire children illegally, pay them under the table
Speaker 1: and then they get killed, that sounds like criminal negligence
Speaker 1: to me. So there are some people in Hollywood were like,
Speaker 1: they fucking murdered those kids for them. Um. But stating notably,
Speaker 1: although he doesn't talk to Landis, Spielberg doesn't say shit,
Speaker 1: Um okay, Steve, Yeah, that could have done a little
Speaker 1: better there, Stevie. Um, I don't. It seems unlikely he
Speaker 1: was on set. I don't think he directly had anything
Speaker 1: to do with this, although you could argue that, like
Speaker 1: you should have been aware of what was happening on
Speaker 1: this set that you were helping to produce, you know.
Speaker 1: In theory, yeah, yeah, I mean it depends on the
Speaker 1: kind of type of producer and stuff, like some some
Speaker 1: of them don't step foot on set. Ever, this is
Speaker 1: not that case, right because they are also directing segments
Speaker 1: of this. But yeah. In the years since the tragedy,
Speaker 1: John Landez has again had a great career. He's also
Speaker 1: signed onto a petition in favor of child molesting director
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski. Um. Okay, not surprised about that. Yeah, big
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski fan John landis um and of course his
Speaker 1: greatest crime after the murders was raising Max landis. Um.
Speaker 1: Say yeah, so he uses his clout to get his
Speaker 1: son screenwriting and eventually directing jobs, and Max puts out
Speaker 1: a mix of Some people will say that um, um
Speaker 1: chronicle was pretty good. I haven't seen it. I watched
Speaker 1: American Ultra, which was very mediocre. In December of two
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen, he is accused of sexual assault by
Speaker 1: former co worker uh, and then a couple of years
Speaker 1: later by seven other women who eventually accused him of rape, assault,
Speaker 1: and psychological abuse that borders He's got kind of a cult.
Speaker 1: It's like this weird group of friends that like he's
Speaker 1: always cycling people through and exiling people like all this
Speaker 1: kind of like he's he's fucked up, dude. Max land
Speaker 1: is a bunch of fucked up ship. He is now
Speaker 1: running coaching a seminars coaching screenwriters. His career seems to
Speaker 1: have pretty much created um. So that's good. We'll see
Speaker 1: if he tries to come back at some point, very Max.
Speaker 1: Another Max lands story is the devastating Daily Beast article
Speaker 1: about the years and years of psychological abuse that he
Speaker 1: did to a number of women and how fucked up
Speaker 1: and insidious it was. UM. As a note, if you
Speaker 1: just find google Daily Beast Max Landis, you'll get the
Speaker 1: U r L for that. It's on the paywall, but
Speaker 1: if you type it, if you go to archive dot
Speaker 1: I S and you plug that Lincoln, it'll pop up
Speaker 1: an archived version that you can read outside of the paywall.
Speaker 1: If you want to know the kind of fucked up
Speaker 1: ship that Max Landis was doing. That's beyond the story
Speaker 1: today because we're talking about John Landis, who has fucked
Speaker 1: up as Max Landis Is. His dad is worse because
Speaker 1: Stead murdered three people. Um, it's just a whole family,
Speaker 1: whole bloodline of great m hmm. And that's the story
Speaker 1: of John Landis, a guy who sucks. What a bastard.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, show up to his funeral when
Speaker 1: he dies and make it about you. I will, I
Speaker 1: really will do that. Do you have any plausibles for us? Perhaps?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, sure, I sure do. UM. You can follow
Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram. I've been doing this new
Speaker 1: thing on my Instagram stories where I recap a movie
Speaker 1: with as much detail as I can, um speaking as
Speaker 1: quickly as I can and doing the whole thing entirely
Speaker 1: from memory in fifteen seconds or less. It's a bit
Speaker 1: that we all love and is super cool and fun
Speaker 1: and good. So do do the movie Pie? The movie pop?
Speaker 1: Are you? First of all, I barely remember. I couldn't
Speaker 1: even I've never watched it while not tripping, and I've
Speaker 1: watched it like seven times. I've definitely seen it, but
Speaker 1: it was like in college because I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: a film student and I need to launch Looking Deer
Speaker 1: near Nashky. It's a great movie to trip while watching.
Speaker 1: Although if you really want to funk your head up,
Speaker 1: watch Tetsuo the Iron Man because that'll, oh yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a drill fucking scene in that one. But anyway, so
Speaker 1: those so that, so I'm afraid I will not be
Speaker 1: doing a good job recapping the movie Pie. Also, as
Speaker 1: soon as you said that, I my brain immediately went
Speaker 1: to Life of Pie and I was like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: about a boy and the tiger in the boat. Did
Speaker 1: it yep? I guess my Pie summary would be math
Speaker 1: and judaism. M M yeah, uh yeah, that that could
Speaker 1: be again, don't remember single detail about there's a lot
Speaker 1: of both in that movie. Um so yeah. Check out
Speaker 1: those those Instagram stories. Follow me on those social media
Speaker 1: platforms if you must um a slash, please do because
Speaker 1: the more followers I have, the more validated I feel
Speaker 1: as a human person. And then you can check out
Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast, which I co host with Jamie Loftus
Speaker 1: and we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Well,
Speaker 1: follow Caitlin and find us both on Twitter. Once you've
Speaker 1: listened to this and tell us you are Max land
Speaker 1: Is Stories. I'll bet there's a number. I'll bet like
Speaker 1: a not insignificant number of the people listening to the
Speaker 1: show we're like, oh, I had to run in with
Speaker 1: that motherfucker. There's a lot of them out there, mostly
Speaker 1: just in ain stupid ship, but also some horrifying stuff.
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's the episode. Thanks for having me, Thanks
Speaker 1: for being on the show. Behind the Bastards is a
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.