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Speaker 1: M hey everybody. Robert Evans here and for the last

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Speaker 1: two years, Behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland

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Speaker 1: Diaper Bank, which provides diapers for low income families. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Last year y'all raised more than twenty one dollars, which

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Speaker 1: was able to purchase one point one million diapers for

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Speaker 1: children and families in need in one um. And this

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Speaker 1: year we're trying to get two dollars raised for the

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Speaker 1: Portland Diaper Bank, which is going to allow us to

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Speaker 1: help even more kids. So um, if you want to help,

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Speaker 1: you can go to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper

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Speaker 1: Bank at go fund me. Just type and go fund

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Speaker 1: me b TB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank. Again, that's

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Speaker 1: go fund Me bTB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank, or

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Speaker 1: find the link in the show notes. Thank you all.

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Speaker 1: Uh We're back, we are. This is Behind the Bastards

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Speaker 1: a podcast posted by you Evans Coma, Robert and our

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Speaker 1: guests Todays Durante Comma Caitlin, it's me. I'm back hot

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Speaker 1: Dog show. Enough. Um so, how how are we doing? Caitlin?

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Speaker 1: I am doing all right, learning a lot about Max.

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Speaker 1: No not I know it's hard not to write, it's

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Speaker 1: difficult not to He's just in my brain more than

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Speaker 1: John Landis. But learning a lot about John Landis. And uh, also,

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Speaker 1: I uh went to John Landis's IMDb because earlier I

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Speaker 1: was like, I couldn't name a single John Landis movie,

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Speaker 1: has he even made anything? And then turns out so

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Speaker 1: many movies that I have seen. He's an incredibly influential director.

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Speaker 1: Actually turns out he's done some stuff good for him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Isis You gotta give him credit for a couple

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Speaker 1: of things, for being active in the pursuit of their goals.

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Speaker 1: And also, John Landis famously conquered a sizeable chunk of

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Speaker 1: northern Syria. Don't talk about that as much, Robert task

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Speaker 1: at hand that I'm always working on the task at hand,

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Speaker 1: which in this case is talking about John landis Is

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Speaker 1: Twilight Zone movies. So the climax of landis Is segment

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Speaker 1: of the Twilight Zone movie was notably the only really

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Speaker 1: big action set piece of the movie. Right, there's not

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Speaker 1: any other like war scenes or really like even all

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Speaker 1: that action e scenes. Right, Like there's some cool ship

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Speaker 1: especially in Joe Dante's bit, but like this is the

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Speaker 1: this is the only thing with like big explosions and

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Speaker 1: shut and stuff. So one Slate article I found alleges

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Speaker 1: that it was quote an excuse for director John Landis

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Speaker 1: to capture immense explosions on film. Um. There have been

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Speaker 1: allegations that the pyrotechnics that he was ordering people to

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Speaker 1: use were illegally large. Um. I can't speak to that,

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Speaker 1: but I found nothing that makes me doubt the basic analysis,

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Speaker 1: which is that John Landis had not gotten to direct

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Speaker 1: a war movie yet and he kind of used this

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Speaker 1: as an excuse to do a big, gritty war movie.

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Speaker 1: This is a feature film because it's one of four,

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Speaker 1: it's like a thirty minute chunk of the feature film

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Speaker 1: basically less really, I think probably more like twenty. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's weird that he got so obsessed with like making

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Speaker 1: a Vietnam scene that was like brutally accurate in the

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Speaker 1: middle of this Twilight Zone movie. Um, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a baffling call. Um. So yeah. The dude that he

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Speaker 1: has flying the helicopter in this critical scene is the

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Speaker 1: incredibly named Dorsey Wingo. Uh. And Dorsey is a Vietnam

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Speaker 1: veteran who had flown choppers in combat. Right so he's

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Speaker 1: you would think, pretty qualified for this very experienced pilot,

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Speaker 1: but he was really new to making movies, and during

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Speaker 1: rehearsals he was deeply rattled by how close the explosions

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Speaker 1: were getting to his aircraft. And again, this is a

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Speaker 1: guy who's been in combat in a helicopter who was

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Speaker 1: scared by how close the explosions are to his helicopter. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And again, if you are directing a movie with a

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Speaker 1: helicopter getting shot at and your combat veteran pilot is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this seems dangerous, you might be like, perhaps we're making

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Speaker 1: a mistake. Because this is a movie and not the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War, things may be going a bit far um.

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Speaker 1: John Landis does not have this moment of realization, absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: So in normal circumstances, Window probably would have said something

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Speaker 1: about the fact that he was deeply frightened by how

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Speaker 1: the explosions were getting close to his helicopter. But he's

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Speaker 1: really new to movies, right. He had been working with

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Speaker 1: helicopters after Vietnam for years, but he hadn't been in film.

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Speaker 1: This is kind of like his first chance that like

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Speaker 1: becoming a Hollywood stunt pilot. And again, doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: upset John Landis and get blacklisted. So Wingo, you know,

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Speaker 1: since he can't, he doesn't feel like he can safely

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Speaker 1: go to John Landis. He goes with his concerns to

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Speaker 1: the unit production manager, a guy named Dan Allingham, and

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Speaker 1: he tells Dan that the pyrotechnics are way too close

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Speaker 1: to the aircraft. Allingham agrees, and he says, hey, obviously

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Speaker 1: like safety first, right, Like we'll we'll change things to

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Speaker 1: make it safer. I'll go to John and I'll tell

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Speaker 1: him we need to make some alterations. So Allingham uh

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Speaker 1: later tells Wingo and the camera operator Roger Smith, who

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Speaker 1: also complained that everything's fine. He spoke to Landis and

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Speaker 1: during the next scene, they're just going to be flying

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Speaker 1: over the water filming thick in the kids, like they're

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Speaker 1: not going to have actors on the ground alongside explosions,

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Speaker 1: like they'll He's worked it out with Landis. But then

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Speaker 1: later that same day, when John Landis walks past Wingo

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Speaker 1: and another crew member discussing how terrifying, lee hot and

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Speaker 1: close the fireballs had been during the last time they'd

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Speaker 1: filmed the scene, Landis smiled and told them you ain't

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Speaker 1: seen nothing yet. So Landis is well aware of how

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Speaker 1: dangerous this scene was, but he wants this shot. He

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Speaker 1: has a very specific vision for how the SHOT's going

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Speaker 1: to go, so he has associate producer George Folsey, who's

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Speaker 1: his number two man, basically go to the parents of

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Speaker 1: the children on set and warn them. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they have explosions on this set, And if you have

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Speaker 1: explosions on a film set, you have to have like

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Speaker 1: a firefighter dude, right who's like your safety guy. And

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Speaker 1: in this case, the guy who's the firefighter dude has

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Speaker 1: also worked in like child protective services adjacent stuff in

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Speaker 1: the past, so Landis knows, oh shit, if this guy

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Speaker 1: finds out that we have a six and a seven

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Speaker 1: year old illegally working at night with explosions, he's going

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Speaker 1: to stop it right like, like as he rightly should.

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Speaker 1: So he has George Folsy go to the parents of

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Speaker 1: these kids and tell them, quote, if the fireman approach you,

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Speaker 1: please tell them that you are not working for us,

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Speaker 1: Say you are my friend, you are here to help me.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell them anything about the money or the children working. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to spend a lot of time focusing

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Speaker 1: on things the parents did wrong because spoilers, this ends

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Speaker 1: in tragedy. But I will say, as a parent, if

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Speaker 1: that conversation has had with you on the set of

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Speaker 1: a film, time to time to get out, time to

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Speaker 1: get time to get rolling right along, that you know

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Speaker 1: it sounds like impending doom is right around the corner.

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Speaker 1: I will say. Only one of the parents has is

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Speaker 1: a fluent English speaker, so the other parent um doesn't

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Speaker 1: understand what Folsy is saying. So Folsey gets an Asian

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Speaker 1: friend who is on the cast to repeat it to

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Speaker 1: her in Vietnames, But the parent is Chinese, so so

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Speaker 1: Folsi's Vietnamese friend just winds up repeating the message slowly

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Speaker 1: in English. So at least one of the parents probably

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Speaker 1: doesn't fully understand like what Folsy is doing here, right um,

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Speaker 1: and how fucked up things are now, as you might

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Speaker 1: have begun to expect. By this point, neither Landis or

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Speaker 1: Folsy had done a very good job of letting either

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Speaker 1: set of parents know how dangerous the scene was going

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Speaker 1: to be. Right They were not adequately informed of the risks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, the pilot was not adequately like finds

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Speaker 1: out how dangerous this is when they're doing the test

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Speaker 1: passes in terms of exploding next to him, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from the book outrageous Conduct again. In

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Speaker 1: these conversations, Folsey would summarize the final scene, mentioning that

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Speaker 1: there would be explosives, but xsuring the parents that the

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Speaker 1: explosives would be nowhere near the children. Folsey was clearly

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Speaker 1: nervous about the illegal hiring. He had always been an honest,

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Speaker 1: decent person, and he did not feel comfortable breaking the law.

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Speaker 1: Another secretary in the office, Cynthia and I, remembers Folsey

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Speaker 1: coming out of one meeting with Landis and production manager

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Speaker 1: Dan Allingham. They had been discussing the hiring of the children,

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Speaker 1: and as he left the office, Folsey joked nervously, will

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Speaker 1: probably all be thrown in jail for this. Schuman claims

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Speaker 1: that she asked Folsey at one point what the penalty

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Speaker 1: was for working children without permits. As she recalled the

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Speaker 1: conversation later, Folsy applied to her a slap on the

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Speaker 1: wrist and a little fine. Unless they find out about

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Speaker 1: the explosives, then they'll throw my butt in jail. So

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Speaker 1: Landis and Folsy and Allingham are all very aware that

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Speaker 1: they are like committing a serious crime here right now

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Speaker 1: on the night of July two. Vic Morrow, who's again

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Speaker 1: playing like the male lead in this right, he's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be rescuing these kids from the this This helicopter,

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Speaker 1: Um and both children, Renee and Micah were placed in

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Speaker 1: position at Indian Dunes Park for like a test run

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Speaker 1: of the scene. Uh Indian Dunes is where at this

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Speaker 1: point a ton of Vietnam More movies had been filmed.

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Speaker 1: Here's how a Rolling Stone article at the time describe

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Speaker 1: the geography of this area. The park is actually a

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Speaker 1: private property enclosed by steep chaparral covered cliffs. At the

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Speaker 1: base of one of those cliffs, on the south shore

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Speaker 1: of the Santa Clara River, a shallow, slow moving stream

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Speaker 1: that irrigates orange and avocado grows. A few miles to

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Speaker 1: the west, a Vietnamese village had been assembled out of

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Speaker 1: bamboo poles, palm thatch and cardboard. Right, so that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the scene. They're gonna blow this village up. Right

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Speaker 1: as the kids and in Vic Morrow are like standing

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Speaker 1: in like this this stream with the helicopter strafening them,

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Speaker 1: the whole village is supposed to explode, right so both

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Speaker 1: kids are nervous because explosions are scary too small children

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Speaker 1: as our helicopters, and to adults, yeah anybody. Vic Morrow,

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Speaker 1: being a nice guy, makes a bunch of funny faces

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Speaker 1: to try and relax them, and he's so successful at

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Speaker 1: this that the kids start laughing hard enough that they

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Speaker 1: can't stop when Landis wants to start filming, so he

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Speaker 1: has to halt the scene and yell at the kids

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Speaker 1: to stop laughing. The shooting goes well this night because

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Speaker 1: again there's not explosions, um and then the parents are

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Speaker 1: given five dollars each and envelopes under the table and

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Speaker 1: told to bring their kids back the next night. July

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Speaker 1: nineteen two is the night that they are set to

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Speaker 1: film the final scene of Vic Morrow rescuing both kids

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Speaker 1: by carrying them across the river while a US helicopter attacks.

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Speaker 1: He was supposed to say, I'll keep you safe, kids,

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Speaker 1: I swear to God, as the village explodes behind them.

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Speaker 1: As the parents of both children sit watching the final

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Speaker 1: scene unfold, Renee's mother asks is it dangerous and Folsey

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Speaker 1: says no, not dangerous, just a loud noise. At two

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Speaker 1: twenty am, John Landis calls action. He yells fire, fire, fire,

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Speaker 1: as two machine gunners pump blank rounds into the river.

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Speaker 1: James Camomile, the pyrotechnician, begins setting off a series of explosions.

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Speaker 1: It is immediately obvious that these are even larger and

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Speaker 1: closer to the helicopter than the ones that had previously

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Speaker 1: frightened the pilot. And as the pilot is zooming in

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Speaker 1: over these explosions with the kids underneath them, Landis starts

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Speaker 1: yelling at him, screaming over the mic, lower, get lower.

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Speaker 1: Mikeah Lee's father, Daniel, who was a Vietnam War veteran,

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Speaker 1: says that the blasts reminded him of real rocket detonations. Quote.

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Speaker 1: I was so horrified. I was screaming the second blast,

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Speaker 1: I fell down on the ground. I cried God. I

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Speaker 1: was so fearful, and I knew danger. It was not

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Speaker 1: something made up, but real danger. So Landis just keeps

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Speaker 1: telling the helicopter to get closer. Two of the explosions

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Speaker 1: detonate very like basically right on the chopper, close enough

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Speaker 1: that they have an effect, not unlike anti aircraft fire.

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Speaker 1: The National Transportation Safety Board, in their analysis, would later

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Speaker 1: conclude quote the probable cause of The accident was the

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Speaker 1: detonation of debris laden high temperature special effects explosions too

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Speaker 1: near a low flying helicopter, leading to foreign object damn

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Speaker 1: to one rotor blade and de lamination due to heat

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Speaker 1: to the other rotor blade, the separation of the helicopter's

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Speaker 1: tail rotor assembly, and the uncontrolled descent of the helicopter.

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Speaker 1: The proximity of the helicopter to the special effects explosions

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Speaker 1: was due to the failure to establish direct communications and

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Speaker 1: coordination between the pilot who was in command of the

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Speaker 1: helicopter operation, and the film director who was in charge

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Speaker 1: of the filming operation. So the helicopter goes down right,

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Speaker 1: the explosions damage it, and it crashes. Now, Landis had

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Speaker 1: wanted the explosions to be close to the helicopter, and

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Speaker 1: he had wanted that helicopter hovering right over the heads

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Speaker 1: of Vic and the children for the same reason. He

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Speaker 1: wanted the scene to look intense and frightening. His vision

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Speaker 1: for the movie now led to a calamity. While roughly

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Speaker 1: a hundred people watched, the helicopter plunged into the river,

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Speaker 1: The right skid crushed six year old Renee, killing her instantly.

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Speaker 1: The craft then toppled over on its side, cutting Vic

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Speaker 1: Morrow and the seven year old Mica in half. There's

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Speaker 1: footage on this, you can find it on YouTube. It's

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Speaker 1: not gory, but you see the chopper because the water

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Speaker 1: kind of covers it. You see the chopper hit them.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty fucking terrifying. Like je, if you want to

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Speaker 1: have knowledge of what that looks like, you can see it.

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Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, Um, but I mean okay, So when

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Speaker 1: I said horses maybe died or maybe people, it was

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Speaker 1: it was the people and it was um, two of

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Speaker 1: which were young young children. Yeah, two of which together

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Speaker 1: did not add up to fourteen years of age. Oh horrible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is it's pretty bad, horrible yeah. Um. And also

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Speaker 1: all there's six people in the helicopter, right, because there's

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Speaker 1: folks filming too. They're all hurt, right, none of them die, thankfully,

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Speaker 1: but they're all injured. Um, because helicopter crashes aren't great

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Speaker 1: for your health. So this is about the worst thing

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Speaker 1: you could watch happen as a parent. Yeah, It's not

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Speaker 1: not a lot that I could imagine being higher on

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Speaker 1: that list. Um. So there's obviously in the immediate aftermath

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Speaker 1: of the crash, their silence, right as everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: like grapples with what has happened, and then Renee's mother

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Speaker 1: begins to scream. John Landis, who, being the guy that

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Speaker 1: John Landis is, still feels a need to act as

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Speaker 1: if he's in control of the situation, says, that's a rap.

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? It's it's now. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those things. He goes on to say, like, leave your

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Speaker 1: equipment where it is. Everyone go home, please, everyone go home?

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Speaker 1: Like right, obviously someone needs to announce that, like filming

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Speaker 1: is over. I guess I don't know, someone needs doing

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Speaker 1: out something for what. I don't think the right thing

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Speaker 1: to say is that's a rap. I just don't. I

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Speaker 1: really don't think that's the right thing to say after

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Speaker 1: you have gotten two children and a stunt man killed killed.

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Speaker 1: Not the right thing to say at all. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: John Landis m M. But on the other hand, we

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Speaker 1: got animal House out of his career, so who can

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Speaker 1: say it was worth it? And then okay, so then

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Speaker 1: I he goes on to direct, um, what did is sorry,

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Speaker 1: I have a bunch of a bunch of will talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the ship. He goes on to direct

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Speaker 1: just a little bit. But you know what we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about right now, Caitlin, Is is it products

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Speaker 1: and services? Yeah? And the products and services in this podcast, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: not once have they been involved in a fatal helicopter accident.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad. That's that's the absolute guarantee we make, um,

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Speaker 1: unless corporation winds up, uh ever, supporting us, in which

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Speaker 1: case they've been responsible for a lot of deadly helicopter accidents. Um.

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Speaker 1: But that's the problem will cross when we finally get

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Speaker 1: that big sponsorship. But I've always thought we're more of

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Speaker 1: a podcast, right Sophie. I find you to be so annoying. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what else is annoying? Not having the great taste?

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Speaker 1: M m? Are you really doing an adverb? That's good

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Speaker 1: right now? Like they don't haven't done anything bad, because

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Speaker 1: that's why I said the great taste of unlike the

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Speaker 1: terrible helicopter crashy taste of products. So they're Sophie Robert

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Speaker 1: stilling for an ad break. It sure is. We're back, Caitlin.

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Speaker 1: How are we doing? I'm doing good? Um? Okay, So

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Speaker 1: after this he directs the Thriller music video. She sure

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Speaker 1: does direct the thriller music video. Um, what are the

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Speaker 1: things I'm familiar with? Three Amigos he directs, which is

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Speaker 1: a movie. Another unpopular opinion that I have is that

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Speaker 1: that movie sucks. I hate hate. There's like twenty good

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Speaker 1: minutes in that whole movie, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: ship in between. Do not like it? Um Coming to America? UM,

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Speaker 1: trade right before or at least it's released before Twilight

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Speaker 1: Zone movie one of the fucking um. One of the

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Speaker 1: write ups about this disaster, I found, like, really ships

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Speaker 1: on Coming to America? I think just because it's like

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Speaker 1: the first big hit Land has had after the accident, which,

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Speaker 1: like I don't get like, I think it's my recollection

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Speaker 1: was Coming to America is perfectly fine movie? One of

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Speaker 1: the better Eddie Murphy movies. UM. I tend to agree. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: except for Shrek and of course three, and of course

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Speaker 1: Shrek and of course Shrek four. Yeah. How many Shreks

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Speaker 1: did we wind up getting? There are four and a fifth?

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Speaker 1: One is I think past development. I think it's soon. Well,

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Speaker 1: this this is the best chance we've had in years

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Speaker 1: of getting another Austin Powers movie. Wait, Shrek five, hang on,

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Speaker 1: this is we just have to pause because this is important.

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Speaker 1: Shrek five. Uh oh. According to fandom, Shruck five might

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Speaker 1: be released on September two. Uh it sounds like really

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Speaker 1: good information that is definitely probably correct. Anyway, we can

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Speaker 1: move away from Shrek. I guess I mean no, um

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Speaker 1: this the I actually plan to just talk about the

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Speaker 1: Shrek movie, which has a pretty titanic body count. Um,

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Speaker 1: although that's primarily because in order to get some of

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Speaker 1: the shots they needed, they had to back a brutal

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Speaker 1: civil war in Ecuador. But you know the Shrek franchise, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the only way you could get that realistically rendered

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Speaker 1: of a donkey. Um. So you know, John Landis gets

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Speaker 1: two children and Vick Morrow horribly killed, um, really terrible

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Speaker 1: debts um. And you know this is gonna cause problems, right. Um.

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Speaker 1: Hollywood is pretty good at at smoothing some things under

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Speaker 1: the under the table, right, but this is this is

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Speaker 1: a problem, right, This is a big story. Yeah, children

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Speaker 1: cut in half by helicopters are gonna There's gonna be

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Speaker 1: some legal stuff that's gonna come out. Yeah a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So the wheels of justice, or what passes for the

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Speaker 1: wheels of justice start to churn up after this. The

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Speaker 1: first court cases that kind of get resolved at least

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Speaker 1: our lawsuits from the families of the children who get killed.

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Speaker 1: The Chin family file on August three, and name both

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Speaker 1: John Landis and Steven Spielberg. Cause again, Steve Spielberg is

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Speaker 1: producing this alongside John Landis, right, he is, he is

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Speaker 1: involved in this whole thing. We will talk some more

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Speaker 1: about the degree to which maybe he's culpable here, because

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Speaker 1: it's very murky. Right, he immediately leaves the country. Um,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that more in a second. Um as

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Speaker 1: does um. Oh god, what's her name? That Kathleen lady

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Speaker 1: who wound up running Marvel what sort? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Let's sack. Let's sack. I don't care about that. Behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes people in movies. Kathleen Kennedy who was also

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Speaker 1: produce she also fucking books it, right, Like, both Spielberg

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Speaker 1: and Kathleen Kennedy are like, because you know, we should

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Speaker 1: probably not be around for this. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get involved in. Um. So Yeah. The first court cases

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Speaker 1: that follow this our lawsuits from the families of the

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Speaker 1: Slane children. The Chin family files on August three, and

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Speaker 1: they name yeah, Lands and Spielberg, as well as uh

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Speaker 1: Folsy and Wingo. Um Folsey is the assist a producer

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Speaker 1: and Windows the pilot in their request for damages. Michael

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Speaker 1: Lees family file suit a year later. These all do

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Speaker 1: get settled out of court. Um. Now, one for an

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Speaker 1: example of kind of the crapulence of big studios, when

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Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is named in the Chin lawsuit, because right

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Speaker 1: there they have some culpability to their law firm argues

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Speaker 1: that the studio not be liable because quote, the risk,

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Speaker 1: if any risk there was, was knowingly assumed by the

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Speaker 1: decedent Renee shiny Chin, who was again six choking me

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Speaker 1: right now? Yeah, first off, the risk if any there was.

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Speaker 1: You can't have if any there wasn't there when three

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Speaker 1: people have been cut to pieces by helicopter rotors. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Like you can't say was there really a risk there

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Speaker 1: was a risk that everything about that sentence is wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's unbelievably like it's a strong case that entertainment lawyers

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Speaker 1: should be boiled. Um. Yeah. So these civil lawsuits are

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Speaker 1: all eventually settled. We don't really know like what kind

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Speaker 1: of money the families get. I hope it's a lot.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, but we don't really know. But of

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Speaker 1: course that doesn't end kind of the legal stuff around this,

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Speaker 1: because three human beings have died gruesome deaths. Two of

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Speaker 1: them are children who have been hired illegally, So the

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Speaker 1: state of California needs to determine if there was any

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Speaker 1: criminal liability for the accident. District Attorney John Van de

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Speaker 1: Camp assigned prosecutor Gary Kesselman to the case, and an

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Speaker 1: l A p D. Sheriff's detective assisted the investigation. Found

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Speaker 1: the things that I have noted already. Um, they find

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Speaker 1: like Folsey saying, oh, I'll go to jail for this.

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Speaker 1: They find that, you know, the children have been illegally hired,

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Speaker 1: that this has been hidden from the fire safety officer.

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Speaker 1: So they they're like, well, there's enough here to convene

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Speaker 1: a grand jerry for fucking share um, which you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the rare times I'll be like, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: l A. Sheriff's deputy was more or less right. Um.

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Speaker 1: So they convene a grand jury. Um. And when you

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Speaker 1: convene a grand jury, that means that there's enough evidence

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Speaker 1: that there's something wrong that you're gonna bring the people

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Speaker 1: involved in front of a jury. And have them be questioned, right,

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Speaker 1: and then the jury is going to decide we indict,

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Speaker 1: which means like do we actually charge people with a crime? Right? Um?

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Speaker 1: So they Folsy winds up in front of the grand jury.

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Speaker 1: Um who he says that in front of the grand jury.

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Speaker 1: Folsey says, in retrospect, it would have been better to

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Speaker 1: shoot the helicopter and the actors at separate times, which, no, ship,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you can see that, buddy. Yes, in retrospect,

400
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Speaker 1: it would have been better to not do the thing

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Speaker 1: that got three people killed. There was adequate technology at

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Speaker 1: the time that yeah, you can like superimposed two there

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Speaker 1: was together if you could, I mean, if you could

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Speaker 1: have explained the concept of a helicopter in there was

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Speaker 1: adequate technology for them to have said, no, this sounds

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Speaker 1: like a bad idea. Yeah, oh no, wonder everything is

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Speaker 1: c g I these days. As much as I love

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Speaker 1: a practical effect, if it puts anyone in danger, you

409
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Speaker 1: could have had a practical effect and like puppets like

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Speaker 1: there's what that Pieters have done scenes like this that

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Speaker 1: did not endanger human life, right, at least not children, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that one of the things that happening here is

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Speaker 1: that like, no one's getting charged or even like attempted

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Speaker 1: to be charged with um with um vic Morrow's death

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Speaker 1: because as questionable as some of the decisions made, he

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Speaker 1: was an adult who chose to be in a really

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Speaker 1: a situation he knew was dangerous. You know, UM's still wild.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're still fucked up. But like these are children,

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Speaker 1: they cannot and honestly their parents can't consent to put

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Speaker 1: them in that danger. You're not allowed to do that

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Speaker 1: their children, and they're not given any of the information.

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Speaker 1: And children are famously uh, not very good at advocating

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Speaker 1: for themselves nor fully understanding. I mean, so much of

424
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: our society exists to stop people from doing things like

425
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: this to children. Um. This is why you can't put

426
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: them in coal mines anymore. So, UM, I'm gonna quote

427
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: for more on how this grand jury goes from Crime

428
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: Library quote. John Landis testified and blamed underlings for the tragedy.

429
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: He said that he had assumed Stewart and Wingo had

430
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: worked out the coordination of their jobs. He did not

431
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: make certain of it because I assumed if these men

432
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: are experts licensed by the government to do their jobs,

433
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: they've done their jobs. Kesselman pressed on as to why

434
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: he did not make sure they talked, because when you

435
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: get into a taxi, Landis replied, you assumed the driver

436
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: is not going to drive you off a bridge. It's

437
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: just assumptions. The guy is a licensed taxi driver. These

438
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: are experts. Later, the prosecutor began the final authority in

439
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: terms of camera, actor positions, helicopter or whatever on that

440
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: set is not mine. Land Is broken because if I

441
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: asked an actor, I said, would you please take your

442
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: hand and stick it at this garbage disposal? The actor

443
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: is going to say, of course not. So he's accepting

444
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: absolutely no accountability. No, no. The director should be the

445
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: ultimate authority on set, but also should have no responsibility

446
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: when things go wrong. Right, Oh my gosh. He as

447
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: you've said, was like, no, these these explosions need to

448
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: be closer. You ain't seen nothing yet, like he was

449
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: constantly despite many people protesting and saying this is not safe,

450
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: this is dangerous, this is going to lead to bad things.

451
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: He was like, but my vision realism. I must make

452
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: a perfectly accurate Vietnam War scene in this Twilight film

453
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: movie movie about a time traveling racist, embarrassing what a loser.

454
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: He sucks for sure. Um, he's he's definitely a thing

455
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: so bad, you know what. Poopy, That's what I'll say,

456
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: Caitlin to quote me, loftus p poo poo wow wow

457
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: powerful powerful to the award winning Jamie loftus p p poopoo.

458
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: Who I am feuding with just the hypocrisy of yeah,

459
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: being like, uh no one questioned me. The choice I'm

460
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: making is the best. I have ultimate power and control here,

461
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: and then when something goes wrong, well I did, I

462
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: don't know. I assumed it was. They didn't say anything.

463
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: If it was, it was the helicopter operator. Such a

464
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: fucking fucking putting explosions and there's next to him. Definitely

465
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: a case we made that the helicopter operator and the

466
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: pyrotechnician have some degree of culpability here. Right, I'm not

467
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: saying they don't because they are professionals, and the fact

468
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: that they could have suffered career consequences from complaining doesn't

469
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: mean they shouldn't have said something. Right. Um, But again,

470
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: the director is the dictat e of the film set.

471
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: He has absolute power. That is less the case now

472
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: because of this accident. We'll talk about that in a

473
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: little bit, but at this time he has absolute power.

474
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: The buck stopped with John Landis, or at least it

475
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: should have, right. Um. He was the motherfucker who was

476
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: making the calls here. Um. And it's kind of like

477
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: he keeps he compares it to a taxi driver and like, well, look,

478
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: it's not my fault if I hire a cab driver

479
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: any crashes. Like well, okay, but if you hire a

480
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: cab driver and then you force him at gunpoint to

481
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: do body shots while driving the cab and then he crashes,

482
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: you you are responsible for that car crash. Actually, um,

483
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: because he wouldn't have been drinking if you had not

484
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: been forcing him to do it. Um. Which is not

485
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: to say that it's wrong to force your cab driver

486
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: at gunpoint to drink. That's a that's a fun time.

487
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: Like I'm not party. It is a cool party time

488
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: and cab drivers love being forced to do shots. That's

489
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: the motto of this show. It is not threaten a

490
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: cab driver anyway. Um. It could be Sophie, allegedly, it

491
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: could be so Obviously A grand jury indicts the ship

492
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: out of John Landis Um, along with Folsey and Allingham.

493
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: They are charged with manslaughter in the deaths of Renee

494
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: and Mica. Again, they're not being charged for Vic Morrow's death.

495
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: The charges are based on the fact that the deaths

496
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: had occurred during the commission of an inherently dangerous, unlawful act,

497
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: and that unlawful act was the illegal hiring of children. Right,

498
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: So the fact that they're getting charged with manslaughter, that

499
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: manslaughter charge relies entirely on the fact that those children

500
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: were legally being employed. Right, Does that make sense? That's

501
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: why Morow that no one's getting charged for Morrow's It

502
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: makes sense because I understand what you're saying, But it

503
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: also doesn't make sense because it should just be illegal

504
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: to Yes, I'm not trying to everything that happened on

505
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: this set. You know, the law is the law. It

506
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with mora. I'm trying to explain, like,

507
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: this is legally what's going on. Right. Um So, again,

508
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: the crime is not just that they got people killed.

509
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: It's that those people, the people they got killed, could

510
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: not legally have been on that set when they got killed.

511
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: That's what makes it not just an accident, but out

512
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: it adds like the criminal responsibility. Um So, Kesselman decides

513
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: not to try and get an indictment against these guys

514
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: for the illegal hiring of the children itself or having

515
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: them work past curfew. Um. These would have been slam

516
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: dunk convictions. Obviously they were blatantly guilty. Um. But both

517
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: would have had like ten day maximum jail sentences. Um,

518
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: because they're more like yeah, because it should like illegally

519
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: having kids work at night and stuff isn't like a

520
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: serious crime on its own. Um, it's not like, yeah,

521
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: it's not like hard time or whatever. And Kesselman, I'm

522
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: not gonna like make a stance on whether he made

523
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: the right call or not. The reason he doesn't go

524
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: for these slam dunk convictions alongside manslaughter is he's worried

525
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: that if the grand jury has the chance to like

526
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: indict these guys on something easy that's lighter than manslaughter,

527
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: that they'll go with the easy charges and they won't

528
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: go for manslaughter. Again, it's like the prosecutor in this

529
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: he's he's you're always playing kind of a game with

530
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: the jury here. I'm not a law expert. I'm not

531
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: going to give an opinion on whether or not this

532
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: is a good call. But this is the call that

533
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: he makes right. Um. So the case churns, churns forward.

534
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: And while this is happening, obviously the dead people are

535
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: having their funerals because that's what you do when people

536
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: get killed. Um. In one of the most unfucking hinged

537
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: moments in Hollywood history, John Landis decides to attend all

538
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: three ceremonies, all three funerals. Yep. Is he super apologetic?

539
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: Now there was some speculation but that he was advised

540
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: too much. Did he go in he was super apologetic? No, no, Sophie,

541
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: that's a fun question. Absolutely not. But he does do

542
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: the opposite of that. Um. There is speculation that his

543
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: lawyers advise him to not just show up, but to

544
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: speak at the funerals in order to seem deeply hurt

545
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: by what has happened. Um. Now, in all cases, the

546
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: families beg him not to come. Right, like nobody wants,

547
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: John land has at these fucking funerals. You know, not

548
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: only does he come, but he makes a speech at

549
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: least at Vic Morrow's funeral. And I'm gonna quote now

550
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: from a write up by Dick Peabuddy, who's one of

551
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: Morrow's friends. They'd work together in a bunch of stuff

552
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: before um, and he's a close enough friend that Peabuddy

553
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: winds up as a pallbearer at more Morrow's funerals. So

554
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: this is this is Dick Peabuddy's recollection of the funeral.

555
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: I rode with them, them being Morrow's family, to the funeral,

556
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: and sat with them in the section of the chapel

557
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: reserved for family. Moments after we arrived, an audible shock

558
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: wave of reaction from Vick's friends and co workers who

559
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: come to pay their respects, grabbed my attention. A thin,

560
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: bearded man was coming down the aisle, seemingly unable to

561
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: walk without assistance. He was supported by a woman and

562
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: another man, Miss John Landis and George Folsey Jr. The

563
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: production manager of the Twilight Zone movie. The bearded staggerer

564
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: was Twilight Zone director John Landis. His stooges helped him

565
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: to the lectern, and he began a rambling eulogy, unplanned, unrequested, unwanted,

566
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: and shocking to Vick's family and friends. His mere presence

567
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: at the funeral was offensive to them. He did this,

568
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: presumably on the advice of his attorney. The most obnoxious

569
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: remark he made, among many, was that he was proud

570
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: to have directed Vic and what Vic himself considered the

571
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: best performance of his career. Vic's girlfriend and his ex wife, Barbara,

572
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: both said that Vic thought the movie was a piece

573
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: of ship and he was ashamed to be connected to it.

574
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: So I cannot confirm whether or not John Landis was

575
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: telling the truth or or Dick pebody was telling the

576
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: truth about how Vic felt about this movie. It is

577
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: worth noting that multiple other accounts back up Dick's retelling

578
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: of events. In fact, some of them sound worse. According

579
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: to several accounts, Here was the full text of what

580
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: land has said. Tragedy can strike in an instant, but

581
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: film is immortal. Vic libs forever. Just before the last take,

582
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: Vic took me aside to thank me for the opportunity

583
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: to play this role. Now, Caitlin, if you had to

584
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: calculate in a lab the worst eulogy to give after

585
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: getting three people killed in a helicopter accident, could you

586
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: do better than this? I think he absolutely nailed giving

587
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: the worst eulogy imaginable, like the balls number one to

588
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: get up and speak and say anything, but I'm sorry

589
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: and my life means nothing now, um Like he's one

590
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: thing to get up and say, at least he was

591
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: the best thing he ever did. My movie was his

592
00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: best moment. Unbelievable. The I I cannot even begin to

593
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: comprehend the size of the ego. You have to have

594
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: to do something like that. We need to have a

595
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: law wherein if like a certain number of people vote

596
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: that a situation is deserving of a motherfucker getting hit

597
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: in the face with a brick, then it's legal to

598
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: hit them in the face with a brick. And I

599
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: think this would be my yardstick, right like if I'm

600
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: arguing the Supreme Court, like what is the bricking, Like,

601
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: what is like the threshold for a bricking? Like right here,

602
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: somebody should have hit John Landis in the face with

603
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: a brick. That would have been fine. Yeah, I mean

604
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: it was according to it seems fine that he was.

605
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: He had the most dangerous film set. Unbelievable. Like so,

606
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: I think it's also worth noting at this point, as

607
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: we have a couple of times, sometimes accidentally, which is

608
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: usually how people refer to this dude, that John Landis

609
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: has a on Max Landis, who we will discuss briefly

610
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: at the end. Now, Max directed the film Chronicle and

611
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: most infamously the Will Smith flop Bright. Since he was

612
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: pretty active online at one point big Reddit guy Max Landis,

613
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 1: people on Reddit would often like troll him by bringing

614
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: up the fact that his dad got three people killed,

615
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: and Max blew up at them at one point. In

616
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: a fairly famous post among Max Landis Nowher's and one

617
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: of the things he stated was that it's really fucked

618
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: up for people to accuse his dad of having killed

619
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: one of his best friends. Now that's bullshit. I have

620
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: come across no evidence anywhere that Vic Morrow and John

621
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: Landis were close. Most accounts seemed to show that Mora

622
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: was somewhat scared by the director and certainly worried about

623
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: what upsetting him might do for his career. A friend

624
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: I think would be comfortable telling a friend, Hey, I

625
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: am worried about the explosions that you were putting next

626
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 1: to me. Right um now, I don't. I actually don't

627
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: think I'm not one to go to bad for Max Landis.

628
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: I don't think Max Landis is lying here. I think

629
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: this is what John Landis had to tell his son

630
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: in order to like try and preserve like some sort

631
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: of I don't know what tone to use here, but

632
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: like my guess is that is the lie that John

633
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: Landis told Max Righte that like again I were great friends,

634
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: and like he understood the risks and you know, it

635
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: was just a tragic whatever. That's my guess here. So

636
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: for the other funerals and for what happened at them,

637
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to turn again to that right up by

638
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: Crime Library quote. At Renee chins funeral, a gray faced

639
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: John Landis, being held up by his wife and friend

640
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: showed up to pay his respects. The child's relatives fixed cold,

641
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: accusing stairs at the director, except for Renee's mother, who

642
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: was sobbing. Landis also went to Micha Lee's funeral, the

643
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: boys choir to which Mica had belonged, saying his favorite him,

644
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: Jesus loves all the children of the world. There is

645
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: no question that the accident traumatized the director for several

646
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: weeks after it, he was heavily medicated. At one point

647
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: he called a confidante and wondered if he would ever

648
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: be able to ask anyone to take even the simplest direction.

649
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: So I will admit, first off, when I wrote this,

650
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: I I missed understood that as John Landis asking them

651
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: to sing that him. I think they're saying that that

652
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: was Mike's favorite him, So I will delete my objection

653
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: there um. But like it's this, he's clearly doing a

654
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: bit right. Every funeral he has the same people carry

655
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: him in. He's acting right like he is. He's putting

656
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: on a show for the court primarily and for his

657
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: own future career to like seem less like a monster here.

658
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: But it's the same show every time, like being carried

659
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: in because you can can't and among other things, it's

660
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: just basic ethics, right, really minimal human decency. If you

661
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: are going to a funeral and it is someone you

662
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: knew that died, but not like someone super close in

663
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: relation to you, you do not act more distraught than

664
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: that person's parents or children or loved ones, right, Because

665
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: it's about them, right, It's not about you. If it's

666
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: just like someone you knew, where it's like your friend's

667
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: mom or something, you don't go there and like collapse

668
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: because it's about them, and that's putting more ship on them, right,

669
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: Like that's kind of fucked up to do, you know,

670
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: don't act more devastated, You don't, certainly, as the director

671
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: of a film that these kids you've known for two days.

672
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: Are and you don't act more distraught than their fucking parents,

673
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, And you don't draw attention to yourself by

674
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: giving like you don't do you don't. First of all,

675
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 1: you don't go, John, don't. You shouldn't. Obviously you shouldn't go.

676
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: You shouldn't go to these these fears if you do

677
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: feel some need because you actually are, are written with

678
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: legitimate guilt, which he clearly is not. Um, you slink in,

679
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: you stand in the back, You don't draw any attention

680
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: to yourself, and then you bail apiece out even that's questionable,

681
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: but like, absolutely don't do this. Absolutely don't do any

682
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: of the things that he did. What a performative piece

683
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: of shit. Now, the good news, Caitlin, and I know

684
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: you're concerned about this, is that killing three people and

685
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: being actively involved in a manslaughter trial does not hurt

686
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: his career, does not hurt his career. Um, while the

687
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: case unfolds, which takes like three years, he directs four

688
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: films and takes on a number again, as we've talked

689
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: about Hi, he directs the thriller video like Yeah, doesn't

690
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: get a lot more high profile than that. Probably still

691
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: like the biggest music video ever made in terms of

692
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: it's like cultural impact. He also directs the Eddie Murphy

693
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: hit Coming to America, which is somewhat less influential. Now

694
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: there's a fun story with Eddie Murphy and and John

695
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 1: Landis that we're going to tell him a bit. But first,

696
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: you know what won't show up to the funerals of

697
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: its victims and make it about them, these products and

698
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: our Services Corporation sher won't. We has labor activists executed

699
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: in Latin America. They don't show up at those funerals.

700
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: Do They bomb them? Sometimes allegedly allegedly, but they don't

701
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: show up. Here's ads We're back. Uh. So Eddie Murphy

702
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: and John Landis were friends at one point, right, Uh,

703
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: they've been in some stuff together. Um, you know, uh

704
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: and and and they're good enough friends that in the

705
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: wake of this tragedy, Um, Eddie goes to Paramount because

706
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: he you know, Coming to America is like a script

707
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: that comes to him first. Right, I'm not going to

708
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: get into the weeds of like how it gets made,

709
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: but right, he's he's wanting to make this movie, and

710
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: he makes Paramount hire John Landis and give him a

711
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: million dollars and final editing rights on the film, um,

712
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: which is more than they want to spend. And he

713
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: does it because Landis is his friend and Eddie Murphy

714
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: wants to give his friend to win. Now, I'm not

715
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: saying Eddie's not a questionable dude, because this is a

716
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: questionable moral decision, but it's being a good friend. You

717
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: can't deny that, you know, um, which is not being

718
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: a good person. But it's at least Eddie. Eddie is

719
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: a guy who will go to bat for his friends.

720
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: This does show that. Um. So what's funny about this

721
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: is that Eddie Murphy really does John Landis a solid

722
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: and then John Landis treats him like utter ship the

723
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: entire time they're making this movie. Is just a nightmarish

724
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: douche bag to this guy who is like saving his career.

725
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: It's a really weird call. Eddie Murphy talks about this

726
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 1: in a Playboy interview, and I'm gonna read an exerpt

727
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: from that now and again for an idea of the

728
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: tone of this. This is a Playboy interview, so Murphy

729
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: is gonna be saying some questionable things later on after

730
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: he got the job he brought along an attitude. He

731
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: came in with this, I'm a direc actors ship. I

732
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: was thinking, wait a second, I fucking hired you, and

733
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: now you're running around going you have to remember I'm

734
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: the boss, I'm the director. One of his favorite things

735
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: was to tell me when I worked with Michael Jackson,

736
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: everyone was afraid of Michael, but I'm the only one

737
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: who would tell Michael fuck you. And I'm not afraid

738
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: to tell you fuck you. And sure enough he was

739
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: always telling me fuck you, Eddie. Everyone at Paramount is

740
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: afraid of you. So that's weird. And also again, like

741
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: you really want to be the dictator of the movie

742
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: when nobody's gotten killed. Um, but suddenly it's a it's

743
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: a team project when three people die. Huh, that's fun.

744
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: Um yeah. Um. So I'm not gonna get two into

745
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: the weeds on this interview, but it has some incredible

746
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: lines from Eddie Murphy that really adds some context to

747
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: the filming of a classic comedy quote. What first put

748
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: a bad taste in my mouth about him was when

749
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: after he hired co stars Shari Headley and all these

750
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: other people, I said, I wanted to take everybody to dinner.

751
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody, but Landis grabbed Headley and said,

752
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: you stay away from Eddie. Don't go hear him, because

753
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: he's gonna fuck you and ruin my movie. He just

754
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: wants your pussy. I'm thinking, wait, oh no, this has

755
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: nothing to do with being a fucking director. He's a

756
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: control freak. Just assuming that I was trying to get

757
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: the pussy is one thing. Even and even if I

758
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: was trying to get the pussy, for him to try

759
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: to stop me getting it because he was directing the movie,

760
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of nerve. Plus, it wasn't even

761
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: about pussy. So again, Murphy right, like, you know, it

762
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: wasn't even a plus, it wasn't even about I do

763
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: kind of suspect Eddie Murphy planned on hitting on her,

764
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 1: but it's still not. It's still fucked up for John

765
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: Landis to just say that, like, yeah, he seems what

766
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: a power hungry Yeah, fucking he's a ship. Now this

767
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: all culminates like the only like eventually Eddie just like

768
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: threatens to beat the ship out of him and things

769
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: calmed down. But they have not talked since. Like Eddie

770
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: Murphy has hated John Us ever, since um, and we'll

771
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: talk about him at the drop of a hat. Anyway, Um,

772
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,479
Speaker 1: back to the trial. So, being a giant piece of ship,

773
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: Landis and his lawyers opted for a strategy in which

774
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: the above the line people blamed everything on the below

775
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: the line people. Now in Hollywood pire lance, above the

776
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: line workers are actors, producers, directors. That there's the big names, right,

777
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: the actual technical people, the crew folks, pilots, stuntman, pyrotechnicians,

778
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,479
Speaker 1: all that stuff there below the line. So Landis, because

779
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: again a bunch of above and below the line people

780
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: have gotten charged here with manslaughter, Landis wants to blame

781
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: the folks responsible for pyrotechnics and the pilot um for

782
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: everything that's happened. That's his plan to throw his people

783
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: under the fucking bus. Also, no wonder there's like a

784
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: director get like becomes one of these just like power

785
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: hungry maniacs, because just just like language like that, Like

786
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: if you come to a set and you see that

787
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: there's a hierarchy like that and then you realize you're

788
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: at the you're at the top of it. I mean,

789
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean it just speaks to how shitty

790
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: a person is. Inherently if they just are in that situation,

791
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm above all these people. Look at

792
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: all these below people there are below me, and look

793
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: at how below they are, and I can exploit them

794
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: and manipulate them, and also the whole system because like

795
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: a lot of these lower people who get charged don't

796
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: work again, or at least not for years. Right, And

797
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: this doesn't have that problem because you can write below

798
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: the line. People have a stink to them because three

799
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: people died. Um. But Landis makes money, so there's no

800
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: real consequences for him career wise. I hate it. So

801
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: for an example of how utterly crapulent these defense tactics were,

802
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from Crime Library Ry quote Braun.

803
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: His defense attorney, called Landis an artist and praised his

804
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: Twilight Zone segment as a cinematographic statement against racism and bigotry.

805
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: He also gave a strangely cynical reason for the casting

806
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: of the children. Children are classically used in films other

807
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: than his principles. He opined in order to evoke emotion

808
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: in an audience, because adults generally don't like one another,

809
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: but everyone likes children. Kesselman called Shayan Hui Chen to

810
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: the stand. Renee's mother spoke through an interpreter. She cried

811
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: as she talked about watching her daughter die. So this

812
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: is like a nasty, nasty case. Um. The jury eventually

813
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: finds Landis and his fellow defendants not guilty of manslaughter.

814
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: A lot of it is like the same kind of

815
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: ship you hear in like the O. J. Simpson trial,

816
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: Like they're picking apart. Like someone will say, well, I

817
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: heard them say we're going to get arrested for doing this,

818
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: and then someone say, like, well, who said it? When

819
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 1: did you hear it? Like as possible they like, it's

820
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: it's all about like creating whatever doubt you can. There's

821
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: a lot of theories as to why the jury acquits them.

822
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: People will argue it's because Landis was famous or whatever.

823
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: Um uh, I don't know. Um, it's worth noting like

824
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: a master manipulator. So yeah, and he's got a lot

825
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: of money to put in, and so does the studio.

826
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: The studio puts a lot of money into his defense.

827
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: The Monday after he's acquitted, UM, John Landis appears on

828
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: Good Morning America to celebrate. He invites all twelve members

829
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: of the jury to attend to the premiere of Coming

830
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: to America, which they do so fun fact about Coming

831
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: to America if you like that film, that is wild.

832
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: Now there are some like minor fines and some censure

833
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: from like industry organizations and ship after the trial, but

834
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: John's career again just plows forward. Um. The main personal

835
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: consequence he faced, aside from his son getting dragged on Reddit,

836
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: was the end of his friendship with Steven Spielberg, who

837
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: again bounces for a while to be and they they

838
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 1: based at the studio because like, there's initially an attempt

839
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: to get him to like testify because he was the

840
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: producer on this movie too, and the studio is basically

841
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: like he's too important to testify, and the court's like okay, wow, okay.

842
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: I think the same thing basically happens with Kathleen as well.

843
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: So before you think too positively of Stephen, it is

844
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,959
Speaker 1: worth noting again he is the producer of this movie

845
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: as well. He is also responsible for the safety of

846
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: the actors in this film UM, and for insuring things

847
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: like the illegal hiring of child actors for an explosive

848
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: helicopter scene do not occur. There are allegations that Spielberg

849
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: was on set that night. UM. I have not found

850
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: any substantiation of them, and those allegations are printed by

851
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 1: people who were who talked to folks who were on set.

852
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: I haven't heard them directly from people who were on set. Um.

853
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: Spielberg has claimed that the interviews in interviews that the

854
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: tragedy made me grow a little, which is a weird

855
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: thing to say. Uh. In the wake of the disaster,

856
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 1: he issued a statement, I was never at the Indian

857
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: Dunes location of Twilight Zone on the night of the accident,

858
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: or at any other time. Now. To follow up to that,

859
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from the book Outrageous Conduct. That

860
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: too sentence letter marked the complete extent of spielberg sworn

861
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: statements on the Twilight Zone case. Joe Dante, who directed

862
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: a segment that had nothing to do with the Landis episode,

863
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: had to give a deposition in one of the civil cases. Spielberg,

864
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: who was the producer of the entire movie, did not

865
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: do even that much. Nevertheless, Tom Bud's argues that there

866
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: was no compelling reason to interrogate Spielberg. There is no

867
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: indication that Spielberg even knew anything about the hiring of

868
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: the children. So I don't know. You can feel however

869
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: you want about Spielberg in this he never talks to

870
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: Landis again, like they're they're they're not buds anymore. I

871
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 1: don't know how much like blame to throw his way.

872
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: A number of other directors do come out and like

873
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: basically say, fucking John Landis is a murderer. After this,

874
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: like there are some directors who like really go to

875
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: the mat to condemn him. In fact, I actually pull

876
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 1: a couple of those up. Um Brian de Palma um

877
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: is one. He's a guy who directed Carry Right and

878
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: the Untouchables said quote, I don't think Landis was railroaded.

879
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 1: It's difficult to imagine putting all those elements in one place. Helicopters, explosions, children,

880
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: night shooting, and not treading a very thin line. That's

881
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: a combination you would try to steer clear of. Helicopters

882
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: by themselves are very dangerous, even with very experienced stunt people,

883
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: and as soon as you have inexperienced people in a set,

884
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: you are adding to the danger. Landis's actions were definitely excessive.

885
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 1: When asked why so many directors had rallied behind Landis

886
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: to Palma answered, I have no idea. Maybe they're afraid

887
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: of being sued. Um, So that's Brian cool. James L. Brooks,

888
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: who directed Terms of Endearments, also uh issued a statement

889
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: if you hire children illegally, pay them under the table

890
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: and then they get killed, that sounds like criminal negligence

891
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: to me. So there are some people in Hollywood were like,

892
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: they fucking murdered those kids for them. Um. But stating notably,

893
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: although he doesn't talk to Landis, Spielberg doesn't say shit,

894
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: Um okay, Steve, Yeah, that could have done a little

895
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: better there, Stevie. Um, I don't. It seems unlikely he

896
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: was on set. I don't think he directly had anything

897
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: to do with this, although you could argue that, like

898
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: you should have been aware of what was happening on

899
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: this set that you were helping to produce, you know.

900
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: In theory, yeah, yeah, I mean it depends on the

901
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of type of producer and stuff, like some some

902
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: of them don't step foot on set. Ever, this is

903
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: not that case, right because they are also directing segments

904
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 1: of this. But yeah. In the years since the tragedy,

905
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: John Landez has again had a great career. He's also

906
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: signed onto a petition in favor of child molesting director

907
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski. Um. Okay, not surprised about that. Yeah, big

908
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski fan John landis um and of course his

909
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: greatest crime after the murders was raising Max landis. Um.

910
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: Say yeah, so he uses his clout to get his

911
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: son screenwriting and eventually directing jobs, and Max puts out

912
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: a mix of Some people will say that um, um

913
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 1: chronicle was pretty good. I haven't seen it. I watched

914
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: American Ultra, which was very mediocre. In December of two

915
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen, he is accused of sexual assault by

916
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: former co worker uh, and then a couple of years

917
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: later by seven other women who eventually accused him of rape, assault,

918
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: and psychological abuse that borders He's got kind of a cult.

919
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: It's like this weird group of friends that like he's

920
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: always cycling people through and exiling people like all this

921
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: kind of like he's he's fucked up, dude. Max land

922
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: is a bunch of fucked up ship. He is now

923
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: running coaching a seminars coaching screenwriters. His career seems to

924
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: have pretty much created um. So that's good. We'll see

925
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: if he tries to come back at some point, very Max.

926
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: Another Max lands story is the devastating Daily Beast article

927
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: about the years and years of psychological abuse that he

928
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 1: did to a number of women and how fucked up

929
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: and insidious it was. UM. As a note, if you

930
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: just find google Daily Beast Max Landis, you'll get the

931
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: U r L for that. It's on the paywall, but

932
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: if you type it, if you go to archive dot

933
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: I S and you plug that Lincoln, it'll pop up

934
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: an archived version that you can read outside of the paywall.

935
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: If you want to know the kind of fucked up

936
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: ship that Max Landis was doing. That's beyond the story

937
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: today because we're talking about John Landis, who has fucked

938
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: up as Max Landis Is. His dad is worse because

939
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: Stead murdered three people. Um, it's just a whole family,

940
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: whole bloodline of great m hmm. And that's the story

941
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: of John Landis, a guy who sucks. What a bastard.

942
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: So I don't know, show up to his funeral when

943
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: he dies and make it about you. I will, I

944
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 1: really will do that. Do you have any plausibles for us? Perhaps?

945
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, sure, I sure do. UM. You can follow

946
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram. I've been doing this new

947
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: thing on my Instagram stories where I recap a movie

948
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: with as much detail as I can, um speaking as

949
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: quickly as I can and doing the whole thing entirely

950
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 1: from memory in fifteen seconds or less. It's a bit

951
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: that we all love and is super cool and fun

952
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: and good. So do do the movie Pie? The movie pop?

953
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: Are you? First of all, I barely remember. I couldn't

954
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: even I've never watched it while not tripping, and I've

955
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: watched it like seven times. I've definitely seen it, but

956
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 1: it was like in college because I was like, I'm

957
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: a film student and I need to launch Looking Deer

958
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: near Nashky. It's a great movie to trip while watching.

959
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: Although if you really want to funk your head up,

960
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: watch Tetsuo the Iron Man because that'll, oh yeah, there's

961
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: a drill fucking scene in that one. But anyway, so

962
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: those so that, so I'm afraid I will not be

963
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,919
Speaker 1: doing a good job recapping the movie Pie. Also, as

964
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: soon as you said that, I my brain immediately went

965
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: to Life of Pie and I was like, yeah, it's

966
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: about a boy and the tiger in the boat. Did

967
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: it yep? I guess my Pie summary would be math

968
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: and judaism. M M yeah, uh yeah, that that could

969
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: be again, don't remember single detail about there's a lot

970
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: of both in that movie. Um so yeah. Check out

971
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: those those Instagram stories. Follow me on those social media

972
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: platforms if you must um a slash, please do because

973
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: the more followers I have, the more validated I feel

974
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: as a human person. And then you can check out

975
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast, which I co host with Jamie Loftus

976
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: and we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Well,

977
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: follow Caitlin and find us both on Twitter. Once you've

978
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: listened to this and tell us you are Max land

979
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: Is Stories. I'll bet there's a number. I'll bet like

980
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: a not insignificant number of the people listening to the

981
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: show we're like, oh, I had to run in with

982
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: that motherfucker. There's a lot of them out there, mostly

983
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: just in ain stupid ship, but also some horrifying stuff.

984
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's the episode. Thanks for having me, Thanks

985
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: for being on the show. Behind the Bastards is a

986
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,

987
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

988
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

989
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.