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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it is

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Speaker 1: not Saturday, but today we're bringing you an episode from

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Speaker 1: the vault. We just had a little bit of time

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Speaker 1: off for the holidays and uh, and to get us

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Speaker 1: through that time where we're playing some older episodes. But

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Speaker 1: this was a really good one and I'm glad we're

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Speaker 1: revisiting it or I don't know if I should say myself.

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Speaker 1: It was really good. I remember it being a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. Uh. This was from January nine, and it's

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Speaker 1: the one we did about band or Snatch. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: was a lot of fun to do. Uh. This of

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Speaker 1: course concerns the Black Mirror Choose your Own Adventure style

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Speaker 1: episode that you can find on Netflix titled band or Snatch.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's a discussion of a free will and

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Speaker 1: how we make choices, and then also some some very

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Speaker 1: episode specific stuff about this, you know, about our experiences

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Speaker 1: with band or Snatch, and also I believe we got

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Speaker 1: into information collection of bit as well. Oh yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I remember one thing about I assumed one reason you

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Speaker 1: wanted to replay this one is that Bandersnatch came up

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Speaker 1: in our recent episode about how our choices later inform

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Speaker 1: what our preferences become. Yes, that was one reason. The

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Speaker 1: other reason was that I put most everything else that

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Speaker 1: we recorded uh in the last year into the schedule

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Speaker 1: for Vault episodes, and I needed something that wasn't there,

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Speaker 1: and Bandersnatch had not been assigned yet. Bam, Well we

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy. Oh and just so you know, we

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Speaker 1: will be back with more brand new core episodes of

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind on Tuesday and Thursday of

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Speaker 1: next week. So never fear more core stuff to blow

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Speaker 1: your mind on the way. And the banker, inspired with

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Speaker 1: a courage so new it was a matter for general remark,

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Speaker 1: rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view in

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Speaker 1: his zeal to discover the snark. But while he was

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Speaker 1: seeking with thymbals and care, a banders match swiftly drew

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Speaker 1: nigh and grabbed at the banker, who shrieked in despair,

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Speaker 1: for he knew it was useless to fly. He offered

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Speaker 1: large discount. He offered a check drawn to bearer for

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Speaker 1: seven pounds ten, but the Bandersnatch merely extended its neck

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Speaker 1: and grabbed at the banker again without rest or pause,

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Speaker 1: while those frumious jaws went savagely snapping around. He skipped,

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Speaker 1: and he hopped, and he floundered and flopped till fainting

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Speaker 1: he fell to the ground. The Bandersnatch fled as the

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Speaker 1: others appeared, led on by that fear stricken yell, and

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Speaker 1: the bellman remarked, it is just as I feared and

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Speaker 1: solemnly told on his bell Welcome to stuff to blow

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Speaker 1: your mind. A production of I Heart Radios has to work. Hey,

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Speaker 1: you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert, are

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Speaker 1: you feeling more frabjous or more frumious today? I guess

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Speaker 1: more frumiousis would be my answer. That was, of course

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Speaker 1: the poem The Hunting of the Snark by Lewis Carroll,

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Speaker 1: But I guess a number of people were probably more

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Speaker 1: familiar with the Bandersnatch from another poem by Lewis Carroll,

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Speaker 1: that being the jabberwah Jackwaukee. Yes, where the Bandersnatch is

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Speaker 1: just alluded to as another monstrous creature that might be

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Speaker 1: running around the woods. I love it when a poet

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Speaker 1: first name something in a kind of in a in

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Speaker 1: a listical kind of way, you know, poem poem as

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Speaker 1: a listical uh, and then later it comes through in

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Speaker 1: another poem with more force. I think that's sort of

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Speaker 1: happened with um with the demo organ, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so. And in this case, yeah, the bandersnatch.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot really said about it in the

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Speaker 1: writings of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll, by the way, was

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Speaker 1: the pen name of Charles Lutwich Dodgson, who lived eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty two through eight, and he first introduced the band

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Speaker 1: or snatch again just in a list of creatures that

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Speaker 1: might pop up in his eighteen seventy two novel Through

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Speaker 1: the Looking Glass in that poem the jabberwocke uh, and

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Speaker 1: then pops up again in this eighteen seventy four poem

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Speaker 1: that we just read, the Hunting of the Snark, which

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Speaker 1: we didn't read the whole of the poem, that was

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Speaker 1: just an excerpt from it. I think where the like,

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Speaker 1: who's the banker? The banker is one of these people

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Speaker 1: who goes on a voyage hunting the snark. I think

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Speaker 1: I've read that that poem was has been interpreted by

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Speaker 1: some as as metaphorical of you know that it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be an allegory about the search for human happiness

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Speaker 1: and contentment. But then also, I think I've heard it

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Speaker 1: alleged that the poem actually has no allegorical meaning, that

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just kind of silly. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: in that sense, it's kind of enigmatic. And the creature

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Speaker 1: itself is enigmatic, scarcely described, but certainly best avoided at

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Speaker 1: all costs. There's no way to outrun it, no way

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Speaker 1: to escape its intensity. Uh. And by the way, frumious

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Speaker 1: is a combination of fuming and fear. Us Carroll just

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Speaker 1: grand these two words together to make a nice new

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Speaker 1: adjective for strange monster is a perfectly cromulent word. Very

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Speaker 1: frabjous um. And I was wondering, do you need a

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Speaker 1: vorpal sword if you go up against a bandersnatch or

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Speaker 1: is that only for the jabberwock What certainly worked on

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Speaker 1: the jabberwockie. I don't know about the band or snatch.

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Speaker 1: There's there are no tales of slaying it, are there,

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Speaker 1: at least not in Lewis Carroll's original work. Does the

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Speaker 1: vorpal sword show up as an artifact in D and D?

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Speaker 1: It does, it certainly does. Yeah. Um, pretty good sword.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, very good sword. Now. The name Bandersnatch has

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Speaker 1: been invoked many times over the years and works of

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Speaker 1: fantasy and science fiction. I've seen it pop up as

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Speaker 1: a space slug, another such creature. Sometimes it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of an enigmatic name for like a government project or something. Uh,

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Speaker 1: because it's a great it's a great name. In depictions

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Speaker 1: of Lewis Carroll's work, it is often take on a

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Speaker 1: mammalian character. Nineteen century children's illustrator Peter Newell depicted it

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Speaker 1: as kind of a furry, horned beast that might resemble

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Speaker 1: a cat or maybe a wolf like creature. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: this one. This is a very popular image. And then

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Speaker 1: film adaptations have depicted it as both bor like and

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Speaker 1: cat like. The two thousand ten Tim Burton adaptation has

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Speaker 1: a very memorable creature design for the Bandersnatch. Tim the

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Speaker 1: Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have. I've seen the first one. Um, I never

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Speaker 1: ventured that far into late Burton. Well it it had

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Speaker 1: some things going for it. It had a really good cast,

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Speaker 1: and it had some some interesting character designs, I'll say that,

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Speaker 1: and and a very monstrous looking bandersnatch. Now, just a

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Speaker 1: couple of other interesting tidbits about Lewis Carroll. Um. He

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Speaker 1: was a mathematician. He worked in geometry and new ideas

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Speaker 1: in algebra, logic, machines, ciphers. So between this and other

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Speaker 1: details of of his life, there's a lot of black

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Speaker 1: mirror to the originator of the bander snatch. Also in Hallucinations,

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Speaker 1: the book by Oliver Sacks, the Late Oliver Sax, Sax

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Speaker 1: points out that Carol was known to suffer from classical migraines,

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Speaker 1: and that Carol W. Lippman and others have suggested that

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Speaker 1: his migraine experiences, uh may have contributed to the way

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Speaker 1: he envisioned through the Looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland,

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Speaker 1: like the skewing of time and space. Um. Also, you

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Speaker 1: have auditory hallucinations that are not uncommon in migraines, as

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Speaker 1: well as olfactory hallucinations. I've also seen descriptions of of

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Speaker 1: this lifting feeling, that this feeling of being moved through space. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess the the extension of the lightheadedness that comes

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Speaker 1: on with the aura and all that. Yeah. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's actually an asteroid named Bandersnatch. Oh. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: this and I looked this up. Bander Snatch. It's a

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Speaker 1: Main Belt asteroid, so it's out beyond the orbit of Mars,

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Speaker 1: discovered in nineteen by Japanese astronomers Takashi Urata and Yasuhiro

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Speaker 1: Shimizu at the Nazi Katsura Observatory and it was named,

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Speaker 1: of course after the Fermius Bandersnatch. Awesome. Now, one of

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Speaker 1: the this is just sort of the introductory material on

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Speaker 1: the Bandersnatch because for the vast majority of this episode

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about what, as I guess,

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Speaker 1: the most recent uh cinematic in vocation of the Bandersnatch,

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Speaker 1: and that is the Black Mirror episode. It's not even

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Speaker 1: an episode, it's a Black Mirror film that came out

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Speaker 1: on Netflix December of what was theeen so a little

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Speaker 1: over a year ago. Um and uh, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack here. I actually didn't watch it until

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Speaker 1: this week, so I knew you wanted to do an

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Speaker 1: episode about it, and I was like, okay, I'll finally

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Speaker 1: see what all the fuss is about. I was very impressed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll get I'll certainly get more into my my very

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Speaker 1: thoughts on it later. I was impressed with it when

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Speaker 1: it came out, and then since we were going to

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Speaker 1: do the episode, I rewatched it for the first time

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Speaker 1: since its original release earlier this week, and uh, and

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Speaker 1: I have to say it, I thought it held up.

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Speaker 1: I even got a different ending and a different dead

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Speaker 1: end at one point than I had encountered previously. So

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Speaker 1: it was it was like, why every time you watch

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Speaker 1: a film that you like again you find new things,

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Speaker 1: but in this case you can actually get a different ending. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now we're going to be exploring today some of the

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Speaker 1: some of the science and the ideas and philosophy that

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Speaker 1: are alluded to in band or snatch Um. But in

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Speaker 1: doing so, of course, this will involve some spoilers for

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Speaker 1: this strange film. So I would say there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of places we're not We're not gonna go through

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Speaker 1: and explore every possible ending or anything like that. But

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Speaker 1: if you are in the case where you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: it yet and you don't want anything at all spoiled,

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Speaker 1: you should probably stop here and go watch it first

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Speaker 1: before you listen to the rest of the episode. But

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Speaker 1: if you've already seen it, or you haven't seen it,

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Speaker 1: and you don't care about minor spoilers that don't go

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Speaker 1: all the way to all the endings, then you know,

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Speaker 1: forge ahead with us. Please. However, some of you may

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Speaker 1: be asking the question, well, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: What is Black Mirror? Uh? So we should probably take

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Speaker 1: a few minutes to just refresh you on what this is.

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Speaker 1: It is a is the word refresh? Would that be

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Speaker 1: the word? We should shock you to the bone? Alright?

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Speaker 1: So Black Mirror is in essence a sci fi anthology

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Speaker 1: television series. Uh, in the same vein as the Twilight Zone,

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Speaker 1: the Outer Limits, uh, these various shows we've discussed in

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Speaker 1: the past. I might call it pretty often techno horror.

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Speaker 1: Not every episode is the same, but there's essentially no

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Speaker 1: horror movie as scary as the scariest episodes of Black Mirror,

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Speaker 1: especially the ones that managed to take fairly plausible technological

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Speaker 1: scenarios and and follow them to their logical conclusions. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a show that's very good at conjuring

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Speaker 1: up the worst possible nightmares of like the intersection of

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Speaker 1: capitalism and technology. Yeah, definitely, episodes tend to have a

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Speaker 1: technological swing to the story, and they tend to deal

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Speaker 1: on some level with with contemporary anxiety about current technology

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Speaker 1: and emerging technology. What what what are these technologies doing

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Speaker 1: to our lives? What may they do to our lives

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Speaker 1: in the future? And you know, sometimes they take varying

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Speaker 1: speculative leaps there, of course, since it is science fiction.

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Speaker 1: But you, I would say, you typically leave an episode

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Speaker 1: of Black Mirror, uh, feeling a little worse about the world.

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Speaker 1: I know that Netflix, their current masters, are very into

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Speaker 1: the whole binge model, but I personally find it very

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Speaker 1: difficult to binge Black Mirror, in part because each episode,

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Speaker 1: of course, is a self contained story with its with

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Speaker 1: with characters and applaud etcetera. But then also it's like

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Speaker 1: they're often like a punch in the gut, and I

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Speaker 1: just can't just set there and take one punch after

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Speaker 1: the other. Apart from one very sweet, very nice episode,

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Speaker 1: there's essentially nothing that makes me feel as bad as

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror. Well, you know, I was thinking, I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this because there are definitely some very bleak

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Speaker 1: episode there episodes of Black Mirror that I admire that

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Speaker 1: I will never watch again. But but then I look

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Speaker 1: back at my some of my favorite episodes. My favorite

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Speaker 1: episodes are probably San Junipero, The U S. S. Calister,

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Speaker 1: and metal Head. Two of those. One of those is

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Speaker 1: still pretty bleak, but two of two of those are

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Speaker 1: actually pretty upbeat, probably the most upbeat episodes of the show.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh. And maybe that's the reason I would

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Speaker 1: come back to them, because if I'm gonna double dip,

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Speaker 1: I want to double dip for optimism sake. Now, in

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Speaker 1: terms that, we can't talk about Black Mirror without talking

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Speaker 1: about the creator behind it, the main creative individual behind it,

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Speaker 1: and that is Charlie Brooker, a British writer and humorist

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Speaker 1: whom the earliest thing that he worked on it I

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Speaker 1: was familiar with was that he worked on Chris Morris's

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Speaker 1: excellent news satire Brass Eye. Um. And then he also

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Speaker 1: create did a pretty great zombie movie titled Dead Set

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Speaker 1: in two thousand eight, in which the zombie apocalypse breaks

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Speaker 1: out uh in and around a Big Brother style reality

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Speaker 1: TV production. Feel like two thousand eight was sort of

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Speaker 1: like maybe two thousand seven. Two thousand eight was like

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Speaker 1: peak zombie satire movie. Yeah. And the thing about this one, though,

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Speaker 1: the premise sounds like a comedy, and so I acquired

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Speaker 1: a copy of it, thinking, oh, this is a comedy

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Speaker 1: and this is a guy that worked on brass Ie.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be hilarious. And it is not a

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Speaker 1: straight up comedy. It is a pretty terrifying film. But

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Speaker 1: you see shades of that in Black Mirror. Sometimes there

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Speaker 1: is a premise that could sound like a joke, but

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Speaker 1: then it is taken and considered with such intensity that

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Speaker 1: it works. Yeah, what if like a major tech company

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Speaker 1: used eye tracking software to make sure you were always

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Speaker 1: watching their ads, and if you didn't watch them, they

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Speaker 1: would ring sirens in your brain and deduct money them

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Speaker 1: your bank account until you started watching the ads. Again,

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Speaker 1: sounds like a joke, but like if you just said

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Speaker 1: take that seriously for a bit, uh and explore it,

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Speaker 1: that becomes like a nightmare of of of techno sci fi.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely now. Black Mirror began in two seasons and a

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Speaker 1: holiday special came out and ran on Channel four in

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Speaker 1: the UK. Then Netflix started carrying it and Netflix became

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Speaker 1: the owner of the main publisher of the program. However,

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Speaker 1: you want to look at it starting with season three

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Speaker 1: in October. All in all, it is thus far gone

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Speaker 1: five seasons, twenty one episodes, and that's not counting the

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Speaker 1: film Bandersnatch, which again came out in December. Of these

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Speaker 1: bits of publisher information will actually become relevant later on

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Speaker 1: as we discussed the story, because the the ideas there,

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Speaker 1: because at the end we definitely get into some citiz

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Speaker 1: scenarios where we have to consider the fact that Netflix

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Speaker 1: is the the business daddy behind the Black Mirror, so

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Speaker 1: Bandersnatch the film. The Black Mirror film is actually directed

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Speaker 1: by David Slade, who I was like, where do I

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Speaker 1: know that name from. He's done several things, but one

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Speaker 1: of them was he did one of the Twilight movies. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and I've seen that, that particular one. It was the

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Speaker 1: second one, I think, and it's that's a I'm not

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Speaker 1: a huge Twilight fan, but that is a very watchable

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Speaker 1: Twilight movie and it has a great soundtrack. It's got

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Speaker 1: Tom York on it. Oh yeah. He also directed the

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror episode metal Head that I alluded to earlier,

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Speaker 1: and there are some callbacks to metal Head in the

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Speaker 1: band or Snatch episode. Now, I guess one thing we

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Speaker 1: haven't gotten fully into so far is the fact that

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Speaker 1: the Black Mirror movie Bandersnatch is it's an interactive movie,

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Speaker 1: which makes it very unique. Right, This was the big

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Speaker 1: selling point on it and and and indeed is one

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Speaker 1: of the I mean, it's it's a key part of

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Speaker 1: the way you consume it, but it is also very

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Speaker 1: important thematically, like you know, true to form. The creators

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Speaker 1: here really thought long and hard about how to utilize

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Speaker 1: um an interactive system, uh within the work and make

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Speaker 1: the work comment on that system as well. The interactive

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Speaker 1: system being Netflix, like the fact that the user can

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Speaker 1: make inputs on the movie. Yeah, basically that's what it

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Speaker 1: will amounts to. Is you you start off watching it, it

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Speaker 1: it seems like a normal Netflix presentation, but then you're

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Speaker 1: in my case, my Xbox one controller would suddenly vibrate

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Speaker 1: and then this little the screen at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the screen. You're suddenly presented with two choices and a

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Speaker 1: timer and you have to choose, Uh, you know what

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Speaker 1: is going to happen with the character is going to do,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Now, this is you know, when you just

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Speaker 1: watching checking out the film, you you might not realize

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Speaker 1: how much work goes into this, but it took apparently

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of work to shoot all these various

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Speaker 1: branching paths, because it becomes a you know this this,

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Speaker 1: this tree, this branching system of possibilities when you start

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Speaker 1: presenting the user with these interactive choices. For instance, the

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Speaker 1: the previously the longest episode of Black Mirror was an

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Speaker 1: episode called Hated in the Nation, which was eighty nine

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Speaker 1: minutes long. That's that's future length, right, what ninety minutes

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Speaker 1: is usually the length you shoot for with the sure film. Well,

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Speaker 1: when you're watching the Band or Snatch, depending on your choices,

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Speaker 1: the film can run anywhere between ninety minutes and two

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Speaker 1: and a half hours. And in order to make this work,

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Speaker 1: as pointed out by a Jackie Strausse in the Hollywood Reporter, uh,

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Speaker 1: this means they had to shoot like five hours of

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Speaker 1: footage so that they could actually cover all of these

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Speaker 1: various choices. And you may watch it like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: the first time I watched it, there were plenty of

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Speaker 1: scenes I did not see, And then when I watched

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Speaker 1: it again, there were films there were scenes that I

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Speaker 1: saw the first time that I did not see, and

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Speaker 1: I got an entirely different ending that I never didn't

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Speaker 1: even know about. And then there, of course various Easter

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Speaker 1: eggs and even I've read quote golden Easter eggs that

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Speaker 1: are spread throughout things that most viewers will not find.

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Speaker 1: Must they spend a great deal of time going through

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Speaker 1: and going back through and backing up, etcetera, with this

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Speaker 1: interactive piece encouraging unhealthy obsessive behavior exactly, I mean it

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Speaker 1: is it is black mirror. Now, as far as the

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Speaker 1: choices as you make in the in band or snatch um,

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Speaker 1: you start off making very small choices. It seemed very consequential.

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Speaker 1: For instance, uh, choosing the main characters breakfast cereal he's

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Speaker 1: presented his father shows two boxes and you decide which

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Speaker 1: one he's going to have for breakfast. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: it was what like frosted flakes or sugar puffs or something.

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Speaker 1: I remember what I realized after I made that choice

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Speaker 1: was I was like, oh, no, I think I chose

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Speaker 1: the brand that I was more familiar with. Ah, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to that later. That that is an

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Speaker 1: important point that will come back to later on in

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Speaker 1: the episode. But but at first, it's it's what kind

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Speaker 1: of serial does he want all right, it doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to matter much, and and it also gives you

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Speaker 1: a chance to try out the technology low stakes. But uh.

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Speaker 1: And then also later on you choose what music is

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Speaker 1: going to listen to in uh, when he's on the bus,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of fun. I think you get to

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Speaker 1: choose between a rhythmic song and something else. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember the other one. I think it's Thompson Twins, that's it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And and uh, and then later on he's in a

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Speaker 1: record store and you get to choose which record he's

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Speaker 1: gonna buy. And this is also pretty great because one

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Speaker 1: of the choices is Tangerine Dreams excellent nine four album Phaedra,

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Speaker 1: which is incredible. Absolutely. In fact, I was listening to

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Speaker 1: that again this morning while I was doing some prep

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Speaker 1: for this episode. Yeah, it's it's excellent stuff. However, this

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Speaker 1: time around, I forced myself to choose the other album instead,

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Speaker 1: the other album being a Sao Tamita's The Bermuda Triangle,

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Speaker 1: which very strange, Yeah, very strange work, but very very good.

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Speaker 1: I was really not that familiar with with with this

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Speaker 1: artist or this work, which is apparently kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to come by on streaming unless you just find like

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Speaker 1: a YouTube full album rip. But but yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: just a taste of the soundtrack. The Bandersnach is a

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Speaker 1: wonderfu soundtrack, including not only these artists but also Depeche Mode,

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Speaker 1: Laurie Anderson. Great stuff. But let's come back to the

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Speaker 1: choices you make in this interactive system. So again, they

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Speaker 1: start off seeming largely inconsequential. They start off seeming a

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Speaker 1: little bit fun, you know, it's just surface level stuff

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Speaker 1: like what what's his breakfast cereal? What's his musical choice?

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Speaker 1: But then they become increasingly high stakes and even nerve

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Speaker 1: racking to decide on, Like suddenly you're when you're controller

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Speaker 1: vibrates and you're presented with this choice, and sometimes you

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Speaker 1: feel this dread because sometimes the choice is neither one

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Speaker 1: is all that great. Sometimes the choices are kind of horrible.

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Speaker 1: And there's at least one point where you have no choice.

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Speaker 1: There's there's something to select, but there's no alternative selection,

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Speaker 1: and that feels maddening as well. And and you have

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Speaker 1: a time or you have like what I think it's

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Speaker 1: ten seconds to choose something, and if you don't choose,

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Speaker 1: Netflix chooses for you. But Netflix reports of viewers actively

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Speaker 1: made choices uh when they watch band or Snatch. Now,

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Speaker 1: in my experience, it wasn't that they chose for you

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Speaker 1: at random. It was that whichever one of the two

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Speaker 1: options was highlighted, and it was like a you know,

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Speaker 1: on off toggle, like you couldn't select neither one. You

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Speaker 1: were just selecting one or the other, and then you

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Speaker 1: could and you could go with it, or you could

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Speaker 1: not go with it, and whichever one you had highlighted

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Speaker 1: would just proceed. So there's this kind of um uh,

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Speaker 1: there's this horrible sense of like helplessness that that imposes

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Speaker 1: on you as the viewer. I have not seen it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll go into a restaurant or a bar and

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Speaker 1: they'll have Netflix on playing some show. I've never seen

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Speaker 1: them showing Bandersnatch, probably for this reason, letting all the

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Speaker 1: bar patrends vote to the side, well yeah, or just

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Speaker 1: going crazy like why is nobody clicking the button? Why

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Speaker 1: is nobody interacting with this? Don't let don't let that

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Speaker 1: choice go through. So eventually, as you as you interact

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Speaker 1: with Bandersnatch, a warping of time occurs as you find

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Speaker 1: yourself coming back around to pass choices like a wanderer

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Speaker 1: lost in a maze, and of course, befitting of a maze,

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Speaker 1: there is a sort of minotaur in all of this.

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Speaker 1: There is the Bandersnatch. Wait is it the Bandersnatch or

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00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: is it the Demon Packs? It is even packs? Yeah,

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00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: but I also it is also the Bandersnatch. Like it's design.

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Speaker 1: Its design is roughly based on that illustration of the

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Speaker 1: Bandersnatch we talked about. Okay, cool, all right, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a quick break, but when we come back we

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Speaker 1: will get into the themes of Bandersnatch and into the

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Speaker 1: nature of of choice and free will. Alright, we're back.

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Speaker 1: So there are a lot of interesting ideas, cool themes,

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Speaker 1: historical tidbits that are thrown together, We're not thrown together,

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Speaker 1: stitched together, reassembled in band or snatch that give it

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Speaker 1: its unique feel. Here's just a list of some of

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Speaker 1: the things. First of all, video game design circa four

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Speaker 1: because that is the setting. Yeah, it takes place in

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Speaker 1: the eighties with eighties music, eighties fashion and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: But they're also program mng you know, old school adventure

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Speaker 1: games for like the Commodore sixty four and stuff. Yea

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Speaker 1: another huge part of it, aren't choose your own adventure books? Um,

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Speaker 1: which are you know directly referenced? And then there is

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Speaker 1: a book within Band or Snatch titled band or Snatch

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Speaker 1: that is this enormous tone that we're told is essentially

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Speaker 1: a choose your own adventure type scenario. Uh, do you

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Speaker 1: have any fond memories of cho shown adventure books? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: I was obsessed with them. I loved them when I

424
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: was in elementary school, and I would love them despite

425
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: the fact that you know, you die in most of

426
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: the endings, Like it imposes a kind of horrible paranoid

427
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: fatalism on a child. I think, where you know, oh,

428
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: this is a book about exploring the Arctic, but almost

429
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, you get eaten by a

430
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: polar bear or fall beneath the ice and you can't

431
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: get out. Um. I guess my young brain was drawn

432
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: to that kind of thing, though, you know, I had

433
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: that like morbid obsession with peril and danger and death

434
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: and all that. But also I'm curious what is so

435
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: appealing about the choose your own Adventure books? Because one

436
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: thing we should say is that this is not the

437
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: first interactive film Bandersnatch. Previous attempts at interactive films have

438
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: generally been very unpopular. I think a lot of times

439
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: people don't actually enjoy the experience of choosing the outcome

440
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: of a film, and I think there are reasons for that.

441
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 1: I mean, for one thing, it's just like hard to

442
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: make a story where like multiple, like so many different

443
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: options of how the story could go would all be

444
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: equally satisfying. I mean, there's a reason that an author

445
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: writes a story a certain way, right. For for instance,

446
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: one film that we've talked about on the show before,

447
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: William Castle's Mr. Sardonicus from nineteen sixty one, was presented

448
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: was marketed as having an interactive element in that at

449
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: the end of this you've got to choose the fate

450
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 1: for the villain, would it be, you know, justice or mercy?

451
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: And the thing is, audiences never chose mercy for this

452
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: horrible villa, of course, they always chose justice. And so

453
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: there were even accusations that they never even shot the

454
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: alternate version, like there was the the the idea that

455
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: it was interactive was just you know, the pitch was

456
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: just the marketing, but there was no actual interactive element.

457
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: William castle, I think claimed otherwise saying yes they did

458
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: shoot the sequence. I do not know personally if if

459
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: that's true or not, if if this footage has ever materialized.

460
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: But what I did did read was that generally people

461
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: point to nineteen sixty seven's uh Keno automat as the

462
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: first truly interactive film, but even that, I think there

463
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: are only like four choices that could be made, and

464
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: this film was also I think, largely comedic. Okay, well,

465
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean I would say that there are many reasons

466
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: why this format doesn't always work. For some reason, it

467
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: worked for me as a kid with to choose your

468
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: own adventure books. I loved those. But I mean, one

469
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: problem I think is that it's hard to make all

470
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: the narrative branches as good as each other. But another

471
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: one is just that like, for instance, when you finish it,

472
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: there's not I don't think there was ever a sense

473
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Okay, that's the ending I got. No,

474
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: I want the good ending, or I want the robust

475
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,239
Speaker 1: ending you go back and do it again. It's more

476
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: like a video game, or so I don't want the

477
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: ending where I randomly die, Like the story of the

478
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Super Mario is not that he's killed by a mutant

479
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: turtle three minutes into the game. You know, I mean,

480
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: that's that's not an epic tale. So in some ways,

481
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: I think the choose your own adventure books are sometimes

482
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: better thought of as like a puzzle to solve than

483
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: as like a narrative to be experienced. And another big

484
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: difference I will say is that one of the great

485
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,239
Speaker 1: pleasures of watching a movie or reading a book, or

486
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, engaging in any kind of narrative with an author,

487
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: storyteller and you as the passive audience, is a surrendering

488
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: of responsibility for what is about to happen in your

489
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: own mind. You you give up that responsibility and suddenly

490
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: you know when when bad things continue to happen in

491
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 1: the story, when characters make disastrous decisions that unfold and

492
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: increase the peril and heightened the drama, you're not responsible

493
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: for what's happening. You're just witnessing it. And that you

494
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: know that witnessing is very fun. Is peeking through a

495
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: hole in the wall and what's happening to somebody else

496
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: When they make you make decisions, it introduces this horrible

497
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: tension between what you want to see versus what you

498
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: think you should do, you know, like, uh that I

499
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: think there's this tension whenever a great example would be

500
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: in band or Snatch, I often felt, in a bizarre way,

501
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: morally compelled to make the tame or safer options, where

502
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: at the same time I felt more interested in seeing

503
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: the more kind of like dangerous disastrous options play out. Yeah,

504
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: this was This was definitely my experience with my first

505
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: view and a Band or Snatches that you know when

506
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: the when the decision start start hitting you, like later

507
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: on they become like this horrible choice or this horrible

508
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: choice and becomes harder to play this game. But earlier

509
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: on there are moment to where you're like, are you

510
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: going to do the sensible thing or the more rebellious

511
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: thing or even the more dangerous thing? And I found

512
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: myself choosing the safer thing, Like like minor spoiler here,

513
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: but he is he's offered the choice between producing his

514
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: dream game with this company at their offices, with their support,

515
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: or or saying no to them. And so like the

516
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: responsible part of me is like, yes, say yes to

517
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: this is employment. This is gonna be good for you.

518
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: Like clearly you're you're stuck in a weird situation at home.

519
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: You need to get out of the house, protagonists and uh,

520
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: and so that's the way I went. But it's ultimately

521
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: not the best choice, and it kind of dead ends

522
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: if you take that choice. Well, yeah, it almost kind

523
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: of gives you a little slap on the wrist for

524
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: making that choice, you know. So he So I don't

525
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: want to spoil anything, but yeah, there's a there's like

526
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: a slight shaming of the viewer for choosing the safe option.

527
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: And this is very early on, so we're not really

528
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: spoiling anything, I think nature. But but yeah, I would

529
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: do that a lot. I would Hey, I would make

530
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: safe choices. And in fact, it ultimately ended up reminding

531
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: me a little bit of the Space and Guild and Dune,

532
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: who of course used the spice to see into the

533
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: future to figure out how to navigate the dangers of space,

534
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: which is helpful if you're navigating the dangers of space,

535
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: but into in life and in politics and all these

536
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: other choices. It's this road to stagnation for the Space

537
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: and Guild because they always make the safe choice. And

538
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: when we look at the narratives that we love, generally,

539
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: they're not about people making the safe choice after safe

540
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: choice after safe choice, They're about people flying off the handles,

541
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: are making huge mistakes and having to deal with those,

542
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: and so there is I think there's a learning curve

543
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: there with band or Snatch and and so my second

544
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: viewing of it, I tried to do more of that.

545
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: I tried to make choices that I felt were interesting

546
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: or um or more dramatic, and that seemed to work

547
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: really well, and I feel like the product rewards you

548
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: for doing that. Yeah, So I think that tension is

549
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: definitely there with the movies. And I wonder if it's

550
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: more the case in a movie than in a book,

551
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: just because a movie is more sensorly visceral. The fact

552
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: that you know that it's actually visually presented to you

553
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: in video and audio makes it harder to just pursue,

554
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, your sort of lust for drama and and

555
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: and weirdness and whatever it is you want to see

556
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: um as opposed to making the safer choices. I don't

557
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: recall feeling compelled to make the safer choice the same

558
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: way with Choose your Own Adventure books, and that could

559
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: just be because of like the lower sensory salience of

560
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: of books compared to movies. I don't know, yeah maybe so. Um.

561
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: I finally finally remember the Choose Your Adventure books as well,

562
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: in part because they had them at the library and

563
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 1: I could check them out. Um. But also another series

564
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: that I finally remember, the Lone Wolf series. Were you

565
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: familiar with these? So these there, there are a series

566
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: of these. The first one was by Joe Deaver and

567
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: Gary Chalk, And this is a there like a Choose

568
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: your Own Adventure series, very much fantasy Dungeons and Dragon

569
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: style high fantasy, but there's more of a role playing

570
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: element to it. So for instance, when you open the book,

571
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: it has not only a map of the adventuring world

572
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: you're taking a part of, but there's also an action

573
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: chart and a combat record because you're gonna end up

574
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: having to pencil in your stats as you go through

575
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: the story, picking spells and so forth. It's more like

576
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: a one player dn D module. Yeah, exactly. It's like

577
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: imagine it's like a a Choose your Own Adventure book

578
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: and a one player d n D module come together

579
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: into this one little tone. So I finally remember those,

580
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: And I might be misremembering here, but I think I

581
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: did get turned off later on when I reached an

582
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: artificial dead end in one of them, like there was

583
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: something broken and I couldn't go back. Yeah, but uh again,

584
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: I'm my memory may not be perfect on that. If

585
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: you're at all interested in this format, I do highly

586
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: recommend picking up one of these old battle issues copies

587
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: of the Lone Wolf series, and I think they've republished

588
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: them again with new artwork, but I don't know. The

589
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: classic artwork is exactly the kind of thing I love.

590
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: The Choose Your Adventure book that I brought in today

591
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: for for you to look at Robert is called You

592
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: Are a Shark by Edward Packard. It has a kid

593
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: turning into a shark. He's like mid animal sequence, but

594
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: he also looks like he's slipping sliding as he turns

595
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: into a shark. It's pretty good. That's pretty brilliant to

596
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: like channeling something that children, especially at that time, would

597
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: have been familiar, would have likely done, and giving this

598
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: fantastic spin on it. But it's the story is essentially

599
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: the fingle doppling scene from Overdrawn at the Memory Bank,

600
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: where he just gets transformed into various different animals. Do

601
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: you you know you get turned into an elephant or

602
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: a seagull or of course a shark. I think I

603
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: recall one death where you get turned into a squid

604
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: and you're being chased by something maybe it is a shark,

605
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: and you run out of ink to to disguise yourself

606
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: with and you're doomed. All right. Well, Uh, coming back

607
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: to Bandersnatch, we mentioned the video game aspect choose your

608
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: own Adventure books. There are another number of other elements

609
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: and homages in there as well. Uh. It deals with

610
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: mental illness, It deals with l s d uh, their

611
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: allusions to Philip K. Dick. Uh. There there's mention of

612
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: alternate timelines, and of course it spends a lot of

613
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: time contemplating this idea of a free will and the

614
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: potential illusion of choice. Yeah. I think that's the main

615
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: theme of it is is interrogating the idea of what

616
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: it means to be in control of one's own actions. Yeah.

617
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: And the basic plot is as follows. A young programmer

618
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: named Stephen Butler is obsessed with a choose your own

619
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: adventure style book titled bander Snatch that was written by

620
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: a the late troubled writer Jerome F. Davies, and he

621
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: really wants to turn this into a computer adventure game,

622
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: and he's begun work on it on his own. So

623
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: he ends up falling in with this video game comp

624
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: any called tucker Soft and meets its lead creative, uh,

625
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: this programmer named Colin Rittman. And from there it departs

626
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: through these varying winding paths, reality warping, through madness and

627
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: sometimes horror. Uh. And through all of it, there's also

628
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: this side of this feeling that there is a minotaur

629
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: like monster pursuing you, pursuing our our protagonist as well.

630
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: And this is the band or Snatch, but more specifically

631
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: it is titled Packs. Its name is Packs, and it

632
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: is who are told it is the Thief of Destiny. Yeah,

633
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: there's a great moment where the game appears to give

634
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: you an option to either deny worshiping Packs or submit

635
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: to worshiping Packs. Yes, this is the game within a game.

636
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: It made me want to play the game. Yeah, it

637
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: looked really cool. So something that made band or Snatch

638
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: different from most of the Choose your own adventure books

639
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: that I remember reading. I'm sure there are probably exceptions,

640
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: but in the classic books I remember reading, the story

641
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: is written in the second person. The protagonist is an

642
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: unnamed you. You know, go down the left hall, you

643
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: get eaten by a swarm of Ferrell pigs. You go

644
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: down the right hall, you get turned into a bowl

645
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: of ice cream by magic pirate. You know that you.

646
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: You explore all the different dooms On offer to you,

647
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: but it's you. Yeah. Likewise, in the Lone Wolf books,

648
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: as I recall you, you kind of make choices regarding

649
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: how this characters put together. You have a fair amount

650
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: of control. It is your character. But Bandersnatch challenges this

651
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: formula a little bit by making the protagonist a third

652
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: person character with a name and pre existing individualized circumstances.

653
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: You've got Stefan right. But then this is where it

654
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: starts getting even weirder. So not only is it this

655
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: definite third person character with their own characteristics and not

656
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: just a second person protagonist, there are moments where the

657
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: options are you choose, not what Stephen does. That's how

658
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: it mostly is. You know what does Stefon pick? You

659
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: know what? What? What does he listened to? What is

660
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: he answered somebody who poses a question to him? It

661
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 1: then changes and gives you the option to dictate what

662
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: happens to him from the outside. The specific example I

663
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: recall is what messages he believes he is receiving on

664
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: his computer screen. Now, of course, if you go with

665
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: the most straightforward interpretation of the story, which is that

666
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: Stephan is experiencing symptoms of psychosis, in a way, you're

667
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: still dictating the activity of his brain, but activities of

668
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: his brain that he as a character does not perceive

669
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: as coming from himself, their hallucinations that he believes to

670
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: be coming from the outside. And you know, this makes

671
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: me wonder about the framing of how we should think

672
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: about hallucinations that are generated internally by the brain but

673
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: perceived to come from an external source. Are those hallucinations

674
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: best understood as you or not? Um are are there

675
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: processes within your own brain that are, in some legitimate

676
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: sense not you, even though they are your brain, they're

677
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: not any body else. Yeah, it's it's not really the

678
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: voice of God. It is the it is it is

679
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: something coming from inside your brain that you are perhaps

680
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: imagining or or interpreting as the voice of God. But

681
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: is you more synonymous with your whole brain and everything

682
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 1: it does, or is you more synonymous with the part

683
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: of your brain that you identify as yourself. That's going

684
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: to be very key to some interpretations of the basic

685
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: theme explored in Bandersnatch, right, and they do explore this

686
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: theme amazingly. Well, I felt the second time I watched it,

687
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: I found all these additional layers. Um, you know again,

688
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm tempted to make the best choices for

689
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: a protagonist, or at least there's still that inclination that

690
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: I want to do that. And at one point there's

691
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: this song playing with the lyrics doing what's best for Nigel,

692
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: and it's all in the stec or I don't know,

693
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: I think so. Yes, I was not familiar with that

694
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: group or that this song before, but yeah, it's playing,

695
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: and the whole scene is about like how his father

696
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: is making choices or him or other times it's you know,

697
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: it's the therapies therapist that is giving him advice about

698
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: how to how to make choices in his life. And

699
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: so you have all these forces that that help him

700
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: make his choices or make choices for him. And then

701
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: that's also what we are doing as we interact with

702
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: the product. Well, yes, and in a weird way, it

703
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: kind of brings you back around to to this question

704
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: of Wait a minute, is he Is he a third

705
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: person narrator or are you supposed to identify as him?

706
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: So when these choices are are in some cases things

707
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: coming to him apparently from the outside, you know, they

708
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: might be messages he's receiving from some kind of otherworldly

709
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: source or hallucinations. Um, are you still making choices for

710
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: him or not? Uh? And it leads back into this

711
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: theme of whether or not you are really in control

712
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: of your own actions and what does it mean to

713
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: be in control of your own actions? Uh? And this

714
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: we come to the subject of free will, which is

715
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: a huge topic that we return to time and time

716
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: again on stuff to blow your mind. And we're not

717
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: going to try to encapsulate everything about that here. Uh.

718
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about in the past, we're talking

719
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: about it today, We're going to talk about it in

720
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: the future. But it suffice to say philosophies, very scientific

721
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: interpretations vary, and then it drags in additional drags in

722
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: just about everything about the human condition, right, I mean,

723
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: moral responsibility, theological quandaries, etcetera. Yeah, I mean it's a

724
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: problem that it is such a huge topic and that

725
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: almost all discussions about free will that I encounter in

726
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: the wild are an absolute mess. This isn't my personal take.

727
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: I noticed. Do you ever notice how conversations about free

728
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: will almost never seemed to clarify anything. They almost never

729
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: seemed to provide any more focus or clarity than you

730
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: had to begin with. Yeah, like sometimes it's it's at

731
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: times it feels like having a conversation with somebody in

732
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 1: a in a swimming pool about weather water is wet,

733
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: because it does get down to like, like it seems

734
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: wet to me. I am in it. It seems like

735
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: free will to me because I am immersed in it,

736
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: and it's difficult for me to remove myself from the

737
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: experience that I'm having and and all of and everything

738
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: in my life that supports everything in the culture at large,

739
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: that supports the idea that I am making choices informed

740
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: choices about my life. I mean, I feel like some

741
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: dilemmas having to do with free will or or like

742
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: they force you to choose between two options that are

743
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: both tautologies or both absurdities. And and any time you

744
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: encounter a problem like that, I think there's a pretty

745
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: good chance that the underlying disease causing that is poorly

746
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: defined terms, right and yeah, to your point, the extreme

747
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: versions of this are are to tend to come off

748
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: as kind of looney, like if someone is just like,

749
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: I am a completely free moving soul, like, no, you're not, dummy. Uh.

750
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's like when we discuss in the in

751
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: the Thankfulness episode that we put out, you know, like

752
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: everybody's life is shaped by these other factors, these other

753
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: individuals in their life to some extent, and I feel

754
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: like to argue against that is just lunacy. On the

755
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: other hand, if someone is saying, I am a just

756
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: a pure automaton, honey, there you can back that that

757
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: argument up with some very intriguing arguments, and we'll get

758
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: into some of those. But at the end of the day,

759
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: does that match up with your experience of reality? I

760
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: totally agree. But I think even talking about it at

761
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: that level, that's already like a level up, like having

762
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: accepted some terms as unproblematic more than I think they

763
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: should be. So like anyway, I mean, I think the

764
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: main problem with free will is people aren't being clear

765
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: what they're talking about before they start talking. And I'm

766
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: totally guilty of this as well. Uh, this is usually

767
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: the case when it comes to free will, and this

768
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: happens even when we're not aware that we're being unclear,

769
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: so we can't do it full justice. In the short segment,

770
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: I think we will try to do better than an

771
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: absolute mass. Uh. So, so to try to understand what

772
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: our terms actually mean. What is free will? Am an understanding?

773
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: Is I am in control of my own actions? And

774
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: I think most of the time for most people this

775
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: feels true. Uh. Though curiously, of course, not all of

776
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: the time and not for all people. We can come

777
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: back to that, but I would argue that it only

778
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: feels true in a general way, and it gets stickier

779
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: and THORNI or the more you try to think about it,

780
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: and the more precisely you try to deform define those terms.

781
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: So if I'm in control of my own actions, who

782
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: is I? Uh that we brought this up a minute ago?

783
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: Is I my whole brain? Uh? And Also I think

784
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: there's a good case to be made that other parts

785
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 1: of your body gets some kind of vote in your

786
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: decision making. So is it my whole body? Is it

787
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: everything with my genome? Even then, I would say your

788
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: microbiota sort of gets a vote. I think that there

789
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: are questions about what the eye is, But then also

790
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: what counts as control? If I am in control of

791
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: my own actions, does it mean that that I make

792
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: my decisions with no outside influences? I mean, that's obviously

793
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 1: not true, as you were alluding to a minute ago.

794
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: But once you accept that outside factors have some influence

795
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: over whatever it is you're talking about controlling, what's to

796
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: stop you from assuming that they have total influence? I mean,

797
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: what part of your decision making is not influenced by

798
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: pre existing factors like your memory and your physical circumstances

799
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: and so forth, Like what part of you can you

800
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: identify that stands outside of the world. And then from

801
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: the other end, paradoxically, if you were to suddenly act

802
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: in a way that made no sense given your own

803
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: history and memory and all of the inputs coming in

804
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: that you think of as influences on you, wouldn't that

805
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: action actually feel less like something that comes genuinely from you,

806
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: whatever you are. Wouldn't by this metric, the most objectively

807
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: free action seemed like something coming from the outside. You mean,

808
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: like if you go to go to a restaurant where

809
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: they're say, there's a drink menu, and you always tend

810
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: to order something that is made with a base of

811
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: say rum or bourbon or whiskey, and instead you throw

812
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: caution to the wind one day and you get a

813
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: mescal or a vodka drink. Does that actually make you

814
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: feel more free or does it seem like something you know,

815
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: something got into you? Where does that phrase come from?

816
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. When I do things like that, I

817
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: think it does make me feel more free, because I'm like, no,

818
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be the same person i've been

819
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: every time. I'm gonna try it a different direction. You know,

820
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to get a different type

821
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: of drink, I'm gonna try a different type of food,

822
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna walk a different way to the train station, etcetera. Well,

823
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say that this just highlights that

824
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: neither branch either acting in character where your character has

825
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: been shaped by everything that ever happened to you, nor

826
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: by acting out of character where you know something got

827
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: into you. Neither way really cites the origin of decisions

828
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: or the origin of actions in something that's out without

829
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: outside influence. So a lot of the arguments about whether

830
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: we have free will actually seem to me to reduce

831
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: to the question of whether we feel we have free will,

832
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: But what would it actually mean to settle the question

833
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: of whether we are like physically objectively free? Uh So,

834
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: maybe we should look at like a more thought out

835
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: dictionary definition. So one that I found is quote the

836
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate

837
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: or fate. Now that that brings me back to the

838
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: demon packs, the thief of destiny, I find myself. I

839
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: found myself with the second viewing of Band or Snatch,

840
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: returning to that title and trying to figure out exactly

841
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: what it means. Because destiny, on one hand, means like

842
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: the your predestined right, there is a destiny in place

843
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: for you, and you perhaps don't have any real control.

844
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 1: It is the thing that the gods have laid out

845
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: for you. That's like one way of looking at But

846
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: another way of looking at destiny is that destiny is

847
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: the thing you aspire to, Like, you choose your own destiny,

848
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: You choose your own adventure, right. Uh So, which each

849
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: of the two is the demon pack stealing from you?

850
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: Is he stealing from you the power to make your

851
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: own decisions? Or is he's stealing from you a predestined path.

852
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: Is he liberating you from this from the same tired

853
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: walk to the train station and the same tired choices

854
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: on the menu. Well, the funny thing about to choose

855
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: your own adventure is that even though you are making

856
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: the choices on each page about which page to turn

857
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: to next, somebody else wrote the whole thing. That's true,

858
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: and I mean, to a certain extent, like you can.

859
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: You can apply that to life. Like as rebellious as

860
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: you might seem ordering something else on the menu that

861
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: you normally don't get, it's still on the menu. And

862
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: other things in life are like that too, Like you are,

863
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: largely you are constrained by the possibilities of of your culture,

864
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: of your station in life, of you know, political realities, etcetera.

865
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: But even then, is the unpredictability of a behavior uh

866
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: at all evidence of your control or your personal volition

867
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: of that behavior. I don't know. I mean that those

868
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: things seem perhaps unrelated to me. Actually, I mean you

869
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: can also be predictably unpredictable. Yeah, um, But anyway, coming

870
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: back to this definition, the one that's you know, acting

871
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: without constraint of necessity or fate. So I think it

872
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: can be hard to pin this down to a concrete claim,

873
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: But I think what it comes closest to is saying

874
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: that for any given action or moment in my life history,

875
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: anything I do, or think or say, given the exact

876
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: same inputs, I could have produced different output than I

877
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: actually did. Um And this this would be I think,

878
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: some way of making free will a kind of like

879
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: a physical proposition. Right, if exactly the same inputs went

880
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: into you, everything was exactly the same, you could have

881
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: done something different than what you did. Unfortunately, I think

882
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: this is just a completely untestable assumption. You know, given

883
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: the complexity of brains, you can never have all of

884
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: exactly the same inputs that somebody had at a given moment,

885
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: So you can't experiment on this to find out what's true.

886
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: Though we certainly love ruminating on this in our fiction.

887
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: Like any kind of time travel film, any kind of

888
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: Groundhog Day scenario is exploring this subject. Yeah, though, even

889
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: with most of those time travel things where people want

890
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: to go back and relive it, what they actually are

891
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: imagining is they want to go back and relive a

892
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: moment with the wisdom and knowledge that they have now

893
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: that they didn't have them. Uh So it would be

894
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: funny to just like replay the same instance over and

895
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: over again with exactly the same physics involved, and see

896
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: if anything different happens without having any new knowledge or whatever.

897
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: Um But even then, I mean, imagine maybe you could

898
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: do that somehow, you know, you could just watch the

899
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: same period of time play out over and over again

900
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: and see if anything different happens. Even if it were

901
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: true that you could have produced different outputs given the

902
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: exact same inputs, would this really mean you were free?

903
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: Would this be what people mean when they see free will,

904
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: like they're in control of their own actions? You know,

905
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 1: imagine there's some random dice rolling machine inside your head,

906
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: or a ghost or a spirit in your brain which

907
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: pushes you in different directions, even if every single iota

908
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: of input is the same. Is that actually freedom? That

909
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: just sounds like a different kind of impetus or control.

910
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: That's interesting you bring up a randomization via some sort

911
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: of technology like dice or casting of bones, because we've

912
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: we've discussed that in the past on the show, how

913
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: that is sometimes brought up as being like that that like,

914
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: that's the purpose of these early divination um UH technologies

915
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: techniques a way to randomize choice and to sometimes force

916
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: us towards a decision that we otherwise otherwise wouldn't make,

917
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 1: like in a way to free us from these predestined

918
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: paths that are before us, or at least, you know,

919
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: lean us over towards a different path that we would

920
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: that is available but we normally wouldn't go for. Well,

921
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: it's funny. I mean either way you go there. So yeah,

922
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: say you're doing the teaching or throwing bones. Does either

923
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: or not doing that either way is one making you

924
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: more the author of your own destiny than another? I'm

925
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: not sure. I mean, they have differences in outcomes, But

926
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: does that actually change what people mean when they say

927
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: when they say free will? I don't know. I mean,

928
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: even if you randomize your choices, you are the one

929
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: that will then enact that choice, Like you're still the

930
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: actor in your narrative and the randomization is still an

931
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: input on you. Um So I don't know. So, uh,

932
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: anyway to to sort of sum it all up, I've

933
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: got a theory here, and it is that I think

934
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: what a lot of us are actually circling around when

935
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out how to articulate our concept

936
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: of free will is this claim. And the claim is

937
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: our consciousness dictates our choices of how we act, or

938
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: in other words, we're conscious of the process by which

939
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: our choices are made or by which our actions are generated.

940
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: Right that that when we act, we are able to

941
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: consciously be a part of the impetus to act, or

942
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: consciously cause the impetus to act. And I think this

943
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: one is actually testable, and we can come back to

944
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: that in a minute. So this is, of course, this

945
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: is one of the big riddles of the human experience.

946
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: And so people have been thinking about this and uh,

947
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: you know, essentially banging their head against the wall about this. Uh.

948
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: For thousands of years. The philosophers Democratus and Lucippus saw

949
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: the universe as wholly governed by natural laws and composed

950
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: of you know, essentially indivisible atoms. They took the determinus

951
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: view of life of one propelled down a flowing stream

952
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: of events. Aristotle, on the other hand, is a great

953
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: example of someone who stressed the individual's responsibility for their actions.

954
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: The indeterminates view of life is a boat propelling itself

955
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: through a body of water. So yeah, to what extent

956
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: are you just sailing down the river. Uh, you know

957
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: at you know, with with no power on where you're going,

958
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: or are you in a boat that have in which

959
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: you have the power to move about and even move

960
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: upstream if you need to. On that note, we're going

961
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: to take one quick break, but when we come back,

962
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: we will start rolling through some arguments for and against

963
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: free will, and then we will return to band or snatch. Alright,

964
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,399
Speaker 1: we're back, So let's start with some arguments against free will,

965
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: because ultimately I think these are these are often easier

966
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: to discuss. Sure, I would say the most basic one, right,

967
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: is just the science of physics, right. Physics is very predictable.

968
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: You can, you know, given given the inputs of forces

969
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: and energy and all that, you can determine what's going

970
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: to happen as an output of that action. And if

971
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: we assume that applies to everything, then why doesn't it

972
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 1: apply to us? Right? And basically comes back to Democritus

973
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: and Lucippus, right, the the idea that their natural laws

974
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: and they that are in place, and we're not above

975
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: those laws. Sure yeah, So we're acting on the inputs

976
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: that come in and you know that that uh being

977
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: being pushed in one way or another, by our life

978
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: history and our brains and all, that we're going to

979
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: act a certain way as physically reactive objects. Uh. Now,

980
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: this is an argument, of course, as the most common

981
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: argument I think against free will. But one question, is

982
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: our free will and causal determinism really incompatible? Uh? Not

983
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: that it settles the issue, but I think the majority

984
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: of philosophers who look at this issue pretty closely actually

985
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: end up becoming what are called compatible lists. They they

986
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: accept causal determinism, they say, yeah, you know, we're physical

987
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: objects being pushed around by physical forces, but they define

988
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,479
Speaker 1: free will in some way that it is compatible with that.

989
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: That you are a physical object being pushed around by

990
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: physical forces and the whole history of your life and everything,

991
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: and yet somehow free will still applies to you. This

992
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: often comes down to like an understanding or feeling of

993
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: free will, like I was talking about earlier, Like even

994
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: if your actions are causally determined, somehow you feel like

995
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: you have agency and that's what we mean by free will,

996
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: right right. Another take on this that I came across,

997
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: and this goes back to something we're talking about earlier.

998
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: Contemporary British analytic philosopher Galen Strawson. Uh. Their argument is

999
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 1: that it's that basically free will is impossible because we

1000
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: act the way we are right. And this argument, this

1001
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: argument always makes me think of of Yates in the

1002
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: poem No Second Troy. There's that line what what could

1003
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: she have done? Being what she is? Uh? And I

1004
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: think about that with myself, Like what when I look

1005
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: back on past choices, what else could I have done

1006
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: being who I am? You know, without the you know,

1007
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: some sort of sci fi foresight brought on by time

1008
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: travel or groundhog day shenanigans, Like I am who I am?

1009
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: I am influenced by all these these things in my life,

1010
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: and my mind is this, and then what other choice

1011
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: would that mind have made? Right? I mean, this is Uh.

1012
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: That's a very good way of putting it. It almost

1013
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: like it maybe emphasizes the fact that free will is

1014
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 1: a difficult concept because of some of the baggage brought

1015
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: by the word free. Yeah, to act in accordance with

1016
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: your nature and your circumstances is not necessarily not free, right,

1017
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: Like it was in my nature to responsibly come to

1018
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: work this morning, and so therefore I did. Um could

1019
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: I have decided not to come into work? Could I

1020
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: have gone to the local I don't know, arcade or

1021
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: something or whatever whatever one does when one skip squirk.

1022
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: I guess I could have. In theory, there's nothing stopping you. Yeah,

1023
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: nothing at all, except that is not my nature, and

1024
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: that is not what I did. Because of my nature.

1025
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: Given the circumstances of who you are and who you

1026
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: were this morning and what was going on this morning,

1027
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: you didn't do it. And that's all we know is

1028
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: that you know you acted the way you were at

1029
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: that time because that's who you were at that time. Yeah.

1030
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: Now that being said, yes, events could have been different.

1031
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: We could have had an email from our boss saying

1032
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: that there is going to be like a rock concert

1033
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 1: in the that's in the office today. That would never happen,

1034
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 1: and it might make me think, well, maybe I don't

1035
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: want to come into work today, and maybe the easiest

1036
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: thing to do would be just to skip. I don't know. Again,

1037
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: you can tease your brain all day thinking about what

1038
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: elf and how this would have this little detail where

1039
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: this other detail would affected your choices, but ultimately we

1040
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: only have the version of the path behind us to

1041
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 1: look back on when we we think about all of this. Now,

1042
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: two other basic arguments against free will. This is when

1043
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: I think we'll come back to Experimentation has pointed to

1044
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 1: break downs between what feels like the moment of choice

1045
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: and what physically signals a choice being made. Yeah, I

1046
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: think this very much complicates the idea that Again, what

1047
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 1: I think people are actually really getting at with their

1048
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: idea of free will is that they have conscious control

1049
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: over their actions and thoughts. And another one, and this

1050
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: is again we've been touching on this the whole episode.

1051
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: But nearly causal influences at least guide our decisions, if

1052
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: not make them for us. It's hard to deny. All right,

1053
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 1: So here are some some arguments for free will. The

1054
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: big one, of course, is that subjectively, we tend to

1055
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: feel like we have rational, reflective control over our choices

1056
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: and actions. Sure, I mean, I can decide to do

1057
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: anything that occurs to me to do right now. You know,

1058
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: I could throw my computer across the room if I

1059
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: really wanted to. Yeah. And then and the idea that

1060
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: the way that there are brains enables to simulate these

1061
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: possibilities really I think allows us to lean into that interpretation.

1062
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: Because it's like the Choose your Own Adventure book, the

1063
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: other choices are in there, and if we want to,

1064
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: we can cheat, and we can check one out and

1065
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: then back up and in a way, you know, we

1066
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: can't do that in real life except through our ability

1067
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: to simulate possible futures, and and of course that has

1068
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: an important evolutionary role. It has a put an important

1069
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: role for our survival. We can think about the different

1070
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: ways we might try to, say, steal a piece of

1071
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: meat from a hungry lion and escape with food and

1072
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: our lives, and then choose the best course of action. Um,

1073
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: this is, this is important. But it can also lean

1074
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: into these interpretations that you know that certainly, uh, you know,

1075
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: I have more choice than I actually have, or even

1076
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: ultimately an idea that of course it's an exploring bandersnatch,

1077
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: the idea that these other alternate choices are kind of

1078
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: alternate timelines, that they're out there, like I saw it

1079
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 1: in my head to a certain extent, that reality where

1080
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: I tried to take more meat than was feasible and

1081
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: was killed by the lion in a way that exists

1082
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: because I just saw it. Unfortunately, I would say about

1083
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: this argument, it does often feel that way that you know,

1084
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: like I could have done anything a minute ago, but

1085
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: you didn't. You did what you did. So again this

1086
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: comes back to the untestability of this one, like there's

1087
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: just never any way to prove that you could have

1088
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: done differently than you did in the moment. Like if

1089
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: you ever had a like a close call where say

1090
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: you're almost in a wreck or you almost do something

1091
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: that could have conceivably gotten you killed, um, and then

1092
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: you have that moment of reflection. Granted, on one level,

1093
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: like it it may get you're you know, just just bodily.

1094
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: You're excited, right because this has happened and your body

1095
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: is on high alert. But on the other hand, part

1096
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: of it is sort of realizing your close proximity to

1097
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: this other possibility, like I was just some minor choice,

1098
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: some minor bit of input data away from something more catastrophic. Yes,

1099
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: it makes you suddenly you come face to face with

1100
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: how dependent you are on moment to moment circumstances and awareness.

1101
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: Though I would say a lot of times when I

1102
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: get that like that, like you know, catch your breath

1103
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: about what could have happened. It wasn't because I narrowly

1104
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: avoided something really bad happening. It's because I suddenly out

1105
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: of nowhere imagined something really bad happening. Like ever, you're

1106
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: going down a flight of stairs and it's going fine,

1107
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: but you just imagine, oh, I could fall and hit

1108
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: my teeth on that thing, and oh yeah, oh yeah,

1109
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: I do that. This is of course, this is one

1110
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: of my pitfalls, is to almost constantly, um essentially fantasize

1111
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: about bad things that could happen. Uh. And I think

1112
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: a lot of us do that, you know, And part

1113
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: of that is your your mind is exploring possibilities of

1114
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 1: what is happening or could happen or has happened. And

1115
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: but in doing that we can lean into the negative

1116
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: possibilities too much, and then our lives become this, you know, abysmal.

1117
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: Choose your own adventure book of most of mostly terrible ends,

1118
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: even though the path that you're actually on may not

1119
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: be leading to any of them. Um. It's it seems

1120
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: like the curse of all this confusion about whether we

1121
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: have free will or not and what that actually means,

1122
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: could just be rooted in the fact that we can

1123
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: consider hypothetical alternative scenarios. The fact that we're able to

1124
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: imagine counter factuals is what makes is what gives rise

1125
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: to this whole argument. Uh So, another thing I have

1126
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: in the list here, and this basically it's just an

1127
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: extrapolation of everything we're talking about right now, is Philosophers

1128
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 1: Stephen Cave and also Bruce Waller have both argued that

1129
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: animals evolved with the capabilities we tend to associate with

1130
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: free will in order to survive, such as opinion generation, deliberation, will,

1131
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: power to stick to a choice, and the large human

1132
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: brain has all of this in spades. Cave argues that

1133
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: the level of free will uh that we have may

1134
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: actually vary from individual to individual, and he argues that

1135
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: we could potentially even put together a method of measuring

1136
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: one's freedom quotient or f Q in the same way

1137
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: that we well roughly measure one's intelligence, creativity, and other

1138
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: psychological factors. I do think that's possible, but I also

1139
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: think that that would be subject to a lot of

1140
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: debate about exactly what it is you're measuring. There as

1141
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: a lot of these actual uh, you know, human or

1142
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: animal quotients are I mean, when when you measure human intelligence,

1143
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: there's debate about what exactly are you measuring uh, And

1144
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: I think the same with would be true of freedom

1145
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 1: subject to all of these crazy caveats we've been talking

1146
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: about so far. What what what do you mean when

1147
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: you say freedom? Yeah. Another take on this that I

1148
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: had read in the past was something that neuroscientists David

1149
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: Eagleman called the principle of sufficient automatism. And the idea

1150
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 1: here is that the more that we map the human

1151
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: genome and study the brains many subconscious machinations, the more

1152
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that a free will exists. It's only

1153
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 1: a factor hitching a ride on top of enormous automated machinery. Um,

1154
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: so again it comes there's there's plenty of ground in

1155
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: between automaton and self moving soul where you can you

1156
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: can sort of move the slider towards one direction or

1157
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: the other and still have something that we can at

1158
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: least refer to as free will. But it might only

1159
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: be a very very little bit of something. Yeah, it might.

1160
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: And it's it's interesting to sort of do that, to

1161
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: do a little self reflection and think about that, Like, yes,

1162
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: I had choice in the Senate situation, but really, how

1163
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: much voice was there? Uh? Yeah? And I think for me,

1164
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: at least some of the definition problems would still remain like,

1165
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that even then, that that's clarifying what

1166
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 1: the concept of freedom means there. Um So, we can't

1167
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: test whether it's possible for a person to produce different

1168
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: outputs given the exact same inputs. That just seems beyond

1169
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: the bounds of empiricism. You could believe that if you want,

1170
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: but I don't think there's any evidence for it. But

1171
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: this might not be what we really mean by free will. Maybe,

1172
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,919
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, we what we mean by free

1173
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: will is that we are conscious of the process by

1174
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: which we make decisions or generate actions. And I think

1175
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: the empirical research is pretty clear that this is not true,

1176
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: at least not in many cases. Um So, just to

1177
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: look at a few studies undercutting traditional notions that our

1178
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: consciousness dictates our decisions or that we're consciously aware of

1179
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: how are all our decisions are reached? Um So, first

1180
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: of all, I want to look at one by a

1181
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: soon brass, Hines and Haines, published in Nature Neuroscience in

1182
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 1: two thousand eight, called Unconscious Determinants of free Decisions and

1183
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: the Human Brain. In this study, the authors found that

1184
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: they could use brain scanning to detect a person's choice

1185
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: between two options before the person believed that they had

1186
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: made a choice. So you've got a very simple setup.

1187
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: You're supposed to freely choose between pressing two buttons. You've

1188
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: got a left button pressed with your left hand, You've

1189
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: got a right button pressed with your right hand. Uh,

1190
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 1: the two different hands were used because this made it

1191
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 1: easier to see which hand was about to be engaged

1192
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: through motor control and brain imaging. And so you take

1193
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: your time, you decide which which button you want to press,

1194
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: and then you note which letter in a timed sequence

1195
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: is displayed on a screen in front of you. At

1196
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 1: the moment you believe you've made your decision about which

1197
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,959
Speaker 1: button to push. And in some cases, the researchers could

1198
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: detect brain activity of the prefrontal and parietal cortex indicating

1199
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: which choice a person was going to make up to

1200
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,439
Speaker 1: seven to ten seconds before the person believed they had

1201
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: made their choice. So this study indicates that at least

1202
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 1: in some cases, at the moment you believe that you

1203
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: have consciously made a choice to do something, machines can

1204
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: look at your brain and showed that the brain has

1205
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: made a choice before you believe you have made a choice,

1206
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: and predict with better than chance accuracy. What that choice is?

1207
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: This is this is a study that really intrigued me.

1208
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 1: I remember when it came out, because it's basically this

1209
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: idea where I think that I'm the lightning, but perhaps

1210
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: I am the thunder, or at least my experience is

1211
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 1: that of the thunder. But then the the other question is, well,

1212
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: does that mean I'm not the lightning? Am I not? Both?

1213
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: And maybe just I'm like, I have a thunder level

1214
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: awareness of what I am, but there is this lightning

1215
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: that precedes this experience of me. Well, I mean, I

1216
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean the decision is generated by the brain.

1217
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: So again you're back to this question of what free

1218
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 1: will mean. But if it, if it does have something

1219
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: to do with consciously being a participant at the moment

1220
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: that a decision is made, that there's pretty good evidence

1221
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: that that's not going on. The brain is making decisions

1222
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: before the person thinks I have made a decision. But okay,

1223
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: that was two thousand eight. Is there anything since then? Sure?

1224
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: Here's one study with findings along these lines but applied

1225
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: to voluntary mental imagery, who was published just last year

1226
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, and the Open access journal Scientific Reports.

1227
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: It's by Kenny Robert and Pearson in h I said

1228
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: Scientific Reports called Decoding the Contents and Strength of Imagery

1229
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: before Volitional Engagement. Uh and UH again. This was published

1230
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. The short version here is that the

1231
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: researchers exposed people to two different images. You've got a

1232
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: red circle with horizontal lines and a green circle with

1233
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: vertical lines. And then the researchers were able to correlate

1234
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: images of brain states with mental representation of the different pictures,

1235
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:00,440
Speaker 1: so they know what it's what it looks like in

1236
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: your brain when you're thinking about these two images separately. Uh.

1237
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: They could use this brain imaging to predict, again above chance,

1238
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: which image subjects would choose to visualize in their head

1239
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: before the subjects believed they had made a choice about

1240
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 1: which one to imagine in their head. And they can

1241
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: make these predictions at a rate above chance and average

1242
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: of eleven seconds before the person's actual choice about which

1243
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 1: one they were going to imagine. So one of the authors,

1244
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 1: Joel Pearson UH was quoted in a statement I believed

1245
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: to Medical express quote. We believe that when we are

1246
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: faced with the choice between two or more options of

1247
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 1: what to think about. Non conscious traces of the thoughts

1248
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 1: are there already, a bit like unconscious hallucinations. That comes

1249
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 1: back to something we talked about recently. Um As the

1250
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: decision of what to think about is made, executive areas

1251
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: of the brain choose the thought trace which is stronger.

1252
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: In other words, if any pre existing brain activity matches

1253
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: one of your choice is, then your brain will be

1254
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 1: more likely to pick that option as it gets boosted

1255
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: by the pre existing brain activity. This would explain, for example,

1256
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,439
Speaker 1: why thinking over and over about something leads to ever

1257
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 1: more thoughts about it as it occurs in a positive

1258
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,480
Speaker 1: feedback loop. And then, to quote from the study abstract,

1259
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: the authors say, our results suggest that the contents and

1260
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: strength of mental imagery are influenced by sensory like neural

1261
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: representations that emerge spontaneously before volition. So there are things

1262
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: going on within the brain that we can detect with

1263
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: machinery from the outside that suggests what you're going to

1264
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: think about before you think about it now. I think

1265
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: we should be fair that it's possible. This isn't always

1266
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: the case, but there's plenty of evidence that at least

1267
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: in some of the at least in some cases, when

1268
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 1: people think they're consciously making a choice, the brain in

1269
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 1: a measurable way has already made a choice that can

1270
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: be detected from the outside. The brain has already set

1271
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: one course of action in motion before the conscious part

1272
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 1: of our brain is aware that we're going to choose

1273
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: that course. So again, kind of a thunder enlightening scenario

1274
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: right now. Of course, this stuff we've been talking about

1275
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: is is true of typical human brains. Once you start

1276
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: looking at a typical neurological situations, you can find all

1277
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: kinds of evidence of action without the sensation of conscious

1278
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: awareness or choice. A lot of these are things that

1279
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 1: have come up on the show before, like blind site,

1280
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 1: the fact that people can physically react to visual stimuli

1281
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: while believing consciously that they are blind, or that they're

1282
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: blind in some part of their visual field, like you

1283
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: can react to, you know, raise your hand to catch

1284
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: a ball without believing that you have seen the ball,

1285
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: or you've got alien limb syndrome, where something like a

1286
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: brain lesion can cause part of the body to act

1287
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,879
Speaker 1: in a way that you do not feel in control

1288
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,759
Speaker 1: of the hand moves on its own, it moves against

1289
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: your will, it picks up the spoon when you meant

1290
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 1: to pick up the fork. Um. Of course, the experiences

1291
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 1: of split brain patients, which we we did a deep

1292
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: dive on in January of twenty nineteen. The short version

1293
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 1: is that some patients who undergo a surgery called a

1294
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 1: corpus callisotomy, in which the main avenue of information sharing

1295
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 1: between the two hemispheres of the brain is severed, can

1296
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 1: seem to show signs of the right hemisphere acting and

1297
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: making choices without the conscious awareness or control of the

1298
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: left hemisphere, which seems to be the part of the

1299
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 1: brain that can usually talk and the last example lead

1300
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 1: to hypotheses like Michael Gazzaniga and Joseph Ladue's left brain

1301
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: interpreter model, where they argue that part of what the

1302
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: left hemisphere of the brain does is generate an ongoing

1303
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 1: series of narrative explanations that reconcile past and present and

1304
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: give us the sense of that that we understand why

1305
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: we do what we do now. Of course, their model

1306
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 1: could be incorrect, but I think it's also possible that

1307
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 1: they're really onto something that the brain seems to have

1308
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: a major function of trying to convince itself that its

1309
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: behavior is coherent and has rational justifications. Uh, and if

1310
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 1: possible to convince the conscious part of the brain that

1311
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: it's in control. I think this is kind of like

1312
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 1: at work when you give the boss three options. You know,

1313
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: it's like, here are the three things we came up with,

1314
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: and you've got the one you actually want to go with. Uh.

1315
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: And then you've got to like terrible options that are

1316
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,680
Speaker 1: designed in order to be ignored and discarded by the

1317
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: boss and flatter the boss and give them a sense

1318
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,560
Speaker 1: of control, right, which can be a dangerous exercise. Absolutely,

1319
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: I'm not advising that is a good strategy. I'm just

1320
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: saying people do it. To look quickly at one more

1321
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: study I found. This was published in in p N A.

1322
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: S By by Darby, jouts Burke, and Fox called Lesion

1323
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: network Localization of free will. Very briefly, the authors here

1324
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: defined the defined the neurologically relevant parts of free will

1325
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: as having two parts. So first of all, there's the

1326
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: desire to act. That's a volition. You know, you've got

1327
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: volitional control, and then a sin of responsibility for that action,

1328
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: which is the feeling of agencies. You have volition and agency.

1329
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: And then they looked at two neurological conditions, one that

1330
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 1: is believed to disrupt each of these functions. Uh, they

1331
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: looked at focal brain lesions that disrupt a volition causing

1332
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: a kinetic mutism, and a kinetic mutism is a condition

1333
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 1: where patients are unable to voluntarily move or speak. This

1334
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:25,840
Speaker 1: would of course be a disruption of the volition part

1335
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: of the brain. And then lesions that disrupt agency, and

1336
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 1: this would of course cause alien limb syndrome again alien

1337
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: len syndrome. That's where you've got part of your body

1338
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: acting or moving in a way that does not feel voluntary.

1339
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 1: It moves, but you don't feel like you did it.

1340
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:43,879
Speaker 1: And then they basically found that brain lesions that disrupt

1341
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,600
Speaker 1: volition occur all over the brain, but there within a

1342
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 1: brain network that is connected in some way to the

1343
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 1: anterior singulate cortex. And they found that lesions that disrupt

1344
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: agency also occur in different locations around the brain, but

1345
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: they tend to be defined by connectivity to a part

1346
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 1: of the brain called the pre cunus. Now, again I

1347
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 1: would note that this this acknowledges physical evidence that there

1348
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 1: are distinct brain processes involved in generating action, you know, volition,

1349
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: versus recognizing personal agency in that action and typical brains

1350
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: executing typical actions have both of these acting in sync,

1351
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 1: but brains can have either one without the other. Now,

1352
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: obviously we could keep going here, We could keep discussing

1353
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 1: a free will and what feels like free will and

1354
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: how it matches up with with neuroscientific data, etcetera. But

1355
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 1: at this point the podcast, we probably do need to

1356
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: bring it back around to band or Snatch and the

1357
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,719
Speaker 1: question like, Okay, given all this stuff that we've talked about,

1358
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: what does band or Snatch seem to be saying about

1359
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,879
Speaker 1: all of this? Well, it does seem to be largely

1360
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 1: a rumination on the idea that we do not seem

1361
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: to have as much free will as we think we do.

1362
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: That that we can resist, but it takes considerable effort

1363
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: to run counter to the current that we're stuck in.

1364
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: I would say a thing that is a theme that

1365
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,559
Speaker 1: has hammered home about free will, and it is the

1366
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: more we look at the concept of free will and

1367
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: think about whether we have control over our actions, the

1368
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,680
Speaker 1: less we feel we have it. Yeah, Like I was

1369
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: thinking of trying to list, like all the various factors

1370
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: and agents that are influencing Stephen in the story, I mean,

1371
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,760
Speaker 1: we have his mental health, his past trauma, his father,

1372
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 1: his therapist, uh, the the the work and tragic life,

1373
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 1: the influence of Jerome F. Davies, his boss at Tucker Soft,

1374
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 1: his mentor slash hero, slash friend Colin Rittman, conspiracy theories,

1375
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: music media, etcetera. And that's not even getting into the

1376
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 1: Specco development that there is either an actual demon entity

1377
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,640
Speaker 1: that is the literal thief of destiny, or that a

1378
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: power beyond himself is influencing his decisions, some sort of

1379
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: voice from beyond, or the machinations of a player in

1380
01:14:56,160 --> 01:15:00,560
Speaker 1: another world. Yeah, the story really brings home this paradox,

1381
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: which is that I think it is the case that

1382
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: the closer we look at free will, and the more

1383
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 1: we uh you know, bring bring our our sharpest scientific

1384
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 1: tools and philosophical instruments to uh to understand it, the

1385
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 1: less it seems to make sense and the less it

1386
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,639
Speaker 1: seems to be there. And yet at the same time

1387
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: that we acknowledge that to feel like your actions are

1388
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: not under your own control is not a heightened state

1389
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: of consciousness, that is still a problem and it uh

1390
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,559
Speaker 1: and I don't know exactly what that signals that maybe

1391
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 1: yet another unresolved tension in the the issue of free will,

1392
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: that like, the more closely we examine it, the less

1393
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,160
Speaker 1: we feel like we have it, and yet genuinely feeling

1394
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 1: like you don't have it. The more you feel that way,

1395
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 1: the more this is a serious impediment to you living

1396
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 1: a healthy life. Now, this seems this may seem like

1397
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: a logical place to in the conversation, but one of

1398
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: the things that's really interesting here is that is that

1399
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: we were talking about episode of Black Mirror that deals

1400
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 1: with free will and our choices in life. And and

1401
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 1: certainly again Black Mirror frequently comments on our uneasy regarding

1402
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,519
Speaker 1: new technology. But then Band or Snatch itself, this show

1403
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: on Netflix, this this movie, this movie itself factors into

1404
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: some user concerns about the future of this sort of

1405
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: interactive viewing technology. Yes, uh, you know, I would say

1406
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,280
Speaker 1: one of the things that is a legitimate concern about

1407
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 1: free will, however you define it, is as murky as

1408
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: it is. At least one thing that we want is

1409
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: to we want to think that we understand the incoming

1410
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,599
Speaker 1: influences on our behavior, right Like you'd like to think

1411
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 1: that if I did X. I can sort of make

1412
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: sense of that. It was because I read this book,

1413
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:48,600
Speaker 1: or I read this article, or I had a conversation

1414
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: with this person, and I connect the knowledge I gained

1415
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: through that or the influences of those past experiences with

1416
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 1: the decision I just made. Life starts getting more different.

1417
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 1: Cult when you have trouble understanding what the influences on

1418
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 1: yourself are. Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, And we've

1419
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 1: we've discussed some of these in the path. We've discussed

1420
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 1: a number of these in the past, but technologically speaking,

1421
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: we have discussed advertising and we have discussed social media,

1422
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 1: which are good things to keep in mind as as

1423
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 1: we continue here, because there might not be a band

1424
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: or snatcher, a demon awaiting you in the maze of

1425
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: future interactive media technology, but there might just be some

1426
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:33,440
Speaker 1: highly targeted advertisements for example. Right. So uh. Two individuals

1427
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: that I ran across the road about this topic or

1428
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: or or touched on this topic. One is Matthew Galt,

1429
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 1: who wrote about this last year for Vice's Motherboard, and

1430
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:45,839
Speaker 1: then Tiffany Sho wrote about it for The New York Times.

1431
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:50,520
Speaker 1: So Galt wrote about Michael Veal, a technology policy researcher

1432
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 1: at University College London who utilized Europe's General Data Protection

1433
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:59,480
Speaker 1: Regulation or g d p r UM law to request

1434
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 1: a cop be of the data Netflix collected about him

1435
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 1: and his choices through the use of the band or

1436
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 1: Snatch program. Now they complied, perhaps in part because of

1437
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: vail status as a public person. But basically Netflix acquires

1438
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 1: this information in order to carry out the Bandersnatch experience,

1439
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 1: which makes sense rights it has to chart your path

1440
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:26,160
Speaker 1: through this this complex system. But then also Netflix keeps

1441
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 1: this information, which the company claims is in order to

1442
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 1: quote determine how to improve this model of storytelling in

1443
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:36,240
Speaker 1: the context of a show or movie. And I mean,

1444
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,920
Speaker 1: on one level that sounds well and good as well,

1445
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: except that the veal thinks that Netflix quote should really

1446
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 1: be using consent which you should be able to refuse,

1447
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 1: or legitimate interests meaning that you can object to it instead.

1448
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 1: Now in Shoes article, she points to the early choice

1449
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,839
Speaker 1: we make between h Kellogg's Frosties and then Quaker Sugar

1450
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: Puffs out. Both of these are real serials, So I

1451
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 1: have to admit I thought Quaker Sugar Puffs was made

1452
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: up because it has this ridiculous honey Monster mascot. That's

1453
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:11,720
Speaker 1: like super fun, kind of a cheddar Goblin sort of thing.

1454
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:15,719
Speaker 1: But it turns out this was an actual UK product.

1455
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: It was just a UK only products, so Americans such

1456
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: as ourselves were perhaps not privy to it. But again,

1457
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: both were real products and neither one was a paid inclusion,

1458
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 1: so it was not official product placement or product integration.

1459
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 1: And Netflix, of course it's like an ad free uh

1460
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:36,759
Speaker 1: system anyway. But Shoe points to some of the words

1461
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 1: of Reed Hastings, co founder, chairman and CEO of Netflix,

1462
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 1: who pointed out during a webcast tied to an earnings

1463
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 1: report that seventy of Bandersnatch viewers selected Kellogg Frosty's over

1464
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 1: the the the Quaker sugar Puffs. No I did too.

1465
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 1: I feel so vulnerable right now. I don't remember what

1466
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 1: I did the first time around. The first time I

1467
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: watched it, I also watched with my wife, so we

1468
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:04,000
Speaker 1: were voting on which choices. You know, we're having a discussion,

1469
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: which I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, because

1470
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: that has a whole another wrinkled as a scenario of

1471
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 1: making communal choices and voting on something, but on my

1472
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: own I chose the Quaker thing just because I thought

1473
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,439
Speaker 1: it looked weirder. But again, I'm in the minority for

1474
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 1: doing so. So first of all, I think this is

1475
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 1: a shame because I think the cover and TV advertisement

1476
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 1: for Quaker sugar Puffs is awesome and weird. Again, but

1477
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 1: more to the point, as Shoe points out, Spencer Wang,

1478
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 1: a Netflix vice president, chimed in and joked, and let's

1479
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 1: be clear he was he was apparently joking that this

1480
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,720
Speaker 1: was the most critical data point of the quarter. Now,

1481
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,599
Speaker 1: she writes it. While Netflix doesn't run commercials and has

1482
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:46,320
Speaker 1: stated that it would not use bandersnatch information for anything

1483
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 1: like this, others outside the company do see the potential, namely,

1484
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:53,639
Speaker 1: in quote, the possibility of inserting brand name products into

1485
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: streaming shows based on data generated by interactive programming. Now,

1486
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:01,320
Speaker 1: Shoe stresses that the technology to roll this out isn't

1487
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 1: here yet, but I suppose we have to to consider

1488
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: two key factors in that statement. So, first of all,

1489
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: we're in the early days of truly you know, interactive

1490
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 1: features like this on major streaming platforms. Uh, you know,

1491
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: assume and that's that's assuming that it really catches on

1492
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 1: at all. As we've discussed. Interactive cinema is not new.

1493
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 1: It's been around for decades and it has largely failed

1494
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,840
Speaker 1: to catch on. Um, it is not like a driving

1495
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 1: force in our entertainment. You'll find plenty of examples of it.

1496
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: You also find a lot of computer games that that

1497
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 1: kind of fulfill this, uh, this niche right, Um, those

1498
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 1: are also sort of failed. Yeah, Um, you know I

1499
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: would have there's certainly deeper dives and say the history

1500
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,680
Speaker 1: of things like what Telltale Games I think was the

1501
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: company maybe that did a number of these things that

1502
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 1: were again not not really released as they weren't marketed

1503
01:21:55,920 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: as interactive movies so much as they were interactive gaming experiences. Uh,

1504
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:03,759
Speaker 1: so that's one thing to consider. Interest in interactive films

1505
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: has essentially gone up and down over the years, and

1506
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 1: again it hasn't really like ignited. Still Netflix and and

1507
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 1: also Netflix itself has only released a handful of interactive titles,

1508
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 1: mostly kids stuff. Bandersnatches their only true adult drama release

1509
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: in this of this product type, though they claim to

1510
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 1: be doubling down on interactive content in the future, given

1511
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:26,200
Speaker 1: you know how Netflix tends to be a little bit

1512
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 1: secretive about like what's coming out. Um, or at least

1513
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: they don't tell you a lot. I guess we'll just

1514
01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: have to know about it when we see it pop up.

1515
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: But also it's also worth reminding ourselves that a great

1516
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: deal of work went into creating Bandersnatch as well. I think,

1517
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,719
Speaker 1: I think I've I've seen it written it like three

1518
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 1: times as much work went into Bandersnatch versus say, um,

1519
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 1: that long episode of the show that was approximately ninety minutes,

1520
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 1: so is it cost effective content? Are all the limitations

1521
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:57,719
Speaker 1: worked out yet? For instance, I don't believe Bandersnatch works

1522
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: on many mobile formats or older models, like you have

1523
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 1: to have, uh, you know, something more updated like I

1524
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: tried to load it down too my phone, uh and

1525
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 1: I have an older UM iPhone. I tried to load

1526
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: it on there to watch on an airplane and it

1527
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:13,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't work. I had to watch it through my Xbox one.

1528
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: And another big concern is there would need to be

1529
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 1: I guess enough interactive content out there tuned for this

1530
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 1: sort of thing did to generate the necessary user data

1531
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 1: to then be employed. I can really see this kind

1532
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: of thing being used as a as a major data

1533
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 1: mining that. I mean, I don't know it seems very

1534
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 1: possible to get psychologically salient information through this now, of

1535
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 1: course that they're already getting information through all kinds of things.

1536
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: You know, the tech business can get your information through UH,

1537
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 1: through what you buy online, through what websites you visit,

1538
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:48,280
Speaker 1: through what you do on Facebook or other social media.

1539
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 1: Right like, a website like Netflix already knows what kind

1540
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 1: of movies you have watched, what kind you like, what

1541
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 1: kind of movies you want to like, and then also

1542
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:00,360
Speaker 1: you know how you have rated things as well, and

1543
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 1: then they can serve you recommendation of what you might

1544
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 1: want to watch in the future. Right now. This is so,

1545
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 1: of course we're talking about this and possibly going multiple ways.

1546
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: One is using interactive choices in UH in a film

1547
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 1: to gather data about you, and the other side would

1548
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:22,600
Speaker 1: be giving like specially user tailored media experiences, which we

1549
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 1: already get somewhat of course on websites. You know, you

1550
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: get websites loading with the ads of stuff you searched

1551
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:30,719
Speaker 1: for on Amazon and Riot. But yeah, I guess we're

1552
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 1: being forced to consider what if that starts happening within

1553
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 1: the movies and TV shows you watch, so you start

1554
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: seeing product placement for specific products that are aimed at

1555
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 1: you individually within the show as you watch right right,

1556
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:49,160
Speaker 1: Like you know they know that well, given the serial scenario,

1557
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 1: like potentially the the master of the content being Netflix

1558
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 1: or some other company. Hypothetically, they might know that you

1559
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:01,919
Speaker 1: were saying more inclined towards uh, you know, healthy lifestyle choices,

1560
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 1: and therefore some sort of granola uh you know, health

1561
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 1: rapped content would be ideal for you in that scenario.

1562
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: Or they might know that that's not your your your

1563
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 1: ideal serial, or maybe they know that you have children

1564
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:17,800
Speaker 1: in the house and therefore a children's cereal would be

1565
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,200
Speaker 1: more appropriate. Like that's the kind of information that they

1566
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 1: could conceivably have and then feed into the cereal that

1567
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:27,840
Speaker 1: appears before you on the screen. Now, that would be,

1568
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: of course, something we're more familiar with, just like inserting ads.

1569
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 1: And you might imagine a character walking past a billboard

1570
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 1: or something in movie like happens all the time now,

1571
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 1: except that billboard can be you know, dynamically inserted with

1572
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 1: new imagery or something. I think things start getting even

1573
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:50,360
Speaker 1: creepier when you imagine something more like Band or Snatch Itself,

1574
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 1: where there are alternative versions of a film that are

1575
01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:56,639
Speaker 1: especially tailored do you that have different narrative content depending

1576
01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 1: on who's watching. I mean, so one thing Robert and

1577
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 1: I talking about briefly before we came in here is

1578
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:05,639
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, we often know that movies

1579
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,639
Speaker 1: can embody values. Of course, you know that, like sometimes

1580
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 1: the values of of a filmmaker creator come through and

1581
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:16,040
Speaker 1: what happens in a story. Uh, and then other times

1582
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:20,160
Speaker 1: they're they're sort of like cheap attempts to display values

1583
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:22,599
Speaker 1: what would often be called like pandering, right, you know,

1584
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, cheap appeals to patriotism or something

1585
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 1: like that in a movie, or or I don't know,

1586
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 1: I guess you can make an argument for Awards season

1587
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 1: Academy Awards bait as well. Yeah, sure, you know, just

1588
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 1: like sort of cheap attempts to exploit the specific desires

1589
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:46,200
Speaker 1: or value interests of a specific target audience. Um and

1590
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: and so you can imagine, okay, well, now, if a

1591
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 1: movie is made and it wants to pander, it needs

1592
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 1: to at least make a choice, right. It's hard to

1593
01:26:55,200 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: pander to everybody at the same time, but you can imagine, okay,

1594
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,640
Speaker 1: what if somebody just starts making more like a Bandersnatch

1595
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:05,799
Speaker 1: kind of thing where maybe you don't make the choices,

1596
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 1: the choices are made for you based on what is

1597
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 1: known about your user profile. And so what I was

1598
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 1: imagining beforehand was you could have different versions of the

1599
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:18,519
Speaker 1: movie Independence Day. You remember that speech Bill Pullman gives

1600
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:20,920
Speaker 1: before they all get in the planes and go fly

1601
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:24,639
Speaker 1: off and fight. Um, So it's this rousing moment where

1602
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:27,719
Speaker 1: Bill Pullman gives this kind of innocuous speech that could

1603
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,960
Speaker 1: appeal to basically anybody. But you can make that speech

1604
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 1: a much more tailored, specific interest group pandering kind of thing,

1605
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: where you could have one version of the film that

1606
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:40,719
Speaker 1: plays for somebody that that's that's very inclusive. He gives

1607
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,759
Speaker 1: a speech, He's like, humans will join arms together around

1608
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: the world. There will be no more nations and borders

1609
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:48,559
Speaker 1: and creeds, and we all, you know, we all unite

1610
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 1: as one and standing brothers and as brothers and sisters

1611
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,120
Speaker 1: against this. Or you could have a version where he

1612
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 1: gives a speech about American exceptionalism and how we're the

1613
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 1: first and we stand up and fight when no one

1614
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 1: else will. Or you could get you know, you can

1615
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:04,559
Speaker 1: imagine a million versions of this, depending on what kind

1616
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 1: of user they think you are who are watching, right,

1617
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:12,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and that that kind of personality profile or

1618
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 1: worldview profile would be pretty easy to acquire. I mean

1619
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 1: basically websites like Facebook have that information. Like they are

1620
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 1: They're not feeding you independence day uh with a tailored

1621
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 1: uh speech in it, but they are feeding you giving

1622
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:31,679
Speaker 1: you a feed that that that reflects your worldviews and values.

1623
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:35,600
Speaker 1: And people are very invested in like the values of

1624
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:38,720
Speaker 1: what media they consume these days. I can imagine it

1625
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 1: being judged a very profitable enterprise by some studios to say, well,

1626
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 1: let's just cover all the bases. You know, we'll have

1627
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 1: way less trouble if we make a movie, you know,

1628
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:50,560
Speaker 1: a version A of the movie for you and a

1629
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 1: version B of the movie for you. It doesn't have

1630
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 1: to be a coherent vision or picture of the world. Yeah,

1631
01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:58,760
Speaker 1: this is you know. I can't help but think on

1632
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 1: on past films, like first we talked about Conan the

1633
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 1: Barbarian on the show in the past, Like that is

1634
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:06,639
Speaker 1: a film that has a has a very particular view

1635
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 1: of what strengthen memes and what uh you know, how

1636
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 1: power works, etcetera. And it's not everybody's political or philosophical

1637
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 1: cup of tea. I mean you can. I think you

1638
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,360
Speaker 1: can enjoy that film without focusing on all of that.

1639
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:24,600
Speaker 1: But still it's definitely there um. And and that's not

1640
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 1: a film, I mean, especially at the time it came out.

1641
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 1: It's not a film where you would necessarily ask for

1642
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,439
Speaker 1: an alternate version of it. But again, it's very clear

1643
01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 1: in what it's saying. But then you have films like

1644
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:37,559
Speaker 1: say Patton. Patton is often brought up as example of

1645
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 1: a film that meant one thing to one part of

1646
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 1: a divided America and another to the other part of

1647
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,600
Speaker 1: the divided America without having to have like an a

1648
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,040
Speaker 1: d version. Right, Yeah, I think you can say that

1649
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:51,680
Speaker 1: about a lot of like war movies, especially. I think

1650
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:54,800
Speaker 1: that might be sort of true of Platoon, Right, is

1651
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 1: that like an anti war movie or a patriotic movie.

1652
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:59,439
Speaker 1: You know, you sort of have some elements of each

1653
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,559
Speaker 1: you can match onto what you want to see there um.

1654
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. I'm I'm somewhat disturbed by

1655
01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 1: the idea of like of of media filling up with

1656
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,280
Speaker 1: these like personally tailored options that are designed to make

1657
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:17,440
Speaker 1: a sort of like generic media template, uh, individually palatable

1658
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:20,600
Speaker 1: to the user. As opposed to standing for something on

1659
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 1: its own and allowing you to judge it, yeah, or

1660
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 1: having some level of ambiguity like does the does the

1661
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:30,920
Speaker 1: the modern audience and like the the near future audience?

1662
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:33,880
Speaker 1: Do they want ambiguity in their work or do they

1663
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 1: want like a clear cut view that is expressed clear

1664
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 1: cut values not only of the film but of like

1665
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:44,519
Speaker 1: the creator or creators behind it, like they you know,

1666
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: is there is there an increased hunger for that? And

1667
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,919
Speaker 1: and if that is the case, you could easily see

1668
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:53,759
Speaker 1: a way of worming around that by taking this ABC

1669
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 1: approach to film creation, because then nobody can say, well,

1670
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 1: I like the character of Conan the Barbarian, I think

1671
01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:04,679
Speaker 1: your view is is pro totalitarianism and uh and and

1672
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, celebrates uh toxic masculinity or

1673
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 1: whatever the critique might be. And then they could say, well,

1674
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:13,639
Speaker 1: that's all good, well and good, but you're you're only

1675
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:17,479
Speaker 1: talking about one version. If you watch Conan the Barbarian, uh,

1676
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, the the uh relaunch of the platform, then

1677
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:25,759
Speaker 1: you will get what is tailored to you. Its treatment

1678
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:29,679
Speaker 1: of masculinity and power will be exactly what you want

1679
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 1: to see. And I mean that opens the door to

1680
01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:36,160
Speaker 1: just a big question of like what art is and

1681
01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 1: what does that do to uh you know, to to

1682
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 1: the role of these narratives in our in our culture.

1683
01:31:42,400 --> 01:31:47,080
Speaker 1: I remember many years ago how much of like the

1684
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:50,320
Speaker 1: new Internet and the new media landscape was being sold

1685
01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:53,719
Speaker 1: to us. It was so often on the selling point

1686
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 1: of customization and individualization. You know, get what's right for you,

1687
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 1: get an experience that's per simmily tailored for you. And

1688
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: somehow I just feel like we were not able to

1689
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:07,800
Speaker 1: anticipate how scary and messed up that would feel when

1690
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 1: it actually happened. I like to come back to Bandersnatch.

1691
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:14,439
Speaker 1: The first time I watched it, I think it probably

1692
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,880
Speaker 1: was over two hours that I spent questing after the

1693
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 1: happy ending, and I got it, and I have to

1694
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:22,559
Speaker 1: admit I felt a little empty when I reached it.

1695
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: The second time, I tried to just again make more

1696
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: dramatic choices, uh, make a choice here and there that

1697
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 1: were just different from what I did the first time.

1698
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:34,839
Speaker 1: I got a bleak ending, but it it felt more authentic.

1699
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 1: Um So, uh yeah, It's interesting to think about, like

1700
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:45,280
Speaker 1: how how choice potentially impacts our appreciation of of a

1701
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 1: work like this, especially if we're talking about increasingly interactive

1702
01:32:49,200 --> 01:32:52,640
Speaker 1: work in a hypothetical future. I had to find a

1703
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 1: good bleak note to end on. I think that's it. Yeah,

1704
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're talking about black mirror, that's that's

1705
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 1: where we have to leave it. All right, Well, we

1706
01:33:01,080 --> 01:33:03,680
Speaker 1: covered a lot of ground in there. Um. I imagine

1707
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 1: listeners will want to chime in, certainly on Band or

1708
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:08,599
Speaker 1: Snatch if they have experienced it. I'd love to hear

1709
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:10,800
Speaker 1: from anyone who's like, how much time did you spend

1710
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:12,679
Speaker 1: on band or such? How many viewings have you given?

1711
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 1: Did you do like Joe and go in and try

1712
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 1: and find every golden Easter egg? I didn't get all

1713
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:19,320
Speaker 1: of them, but I got a lot of them. Or

1714
01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:20,760
Speaker 1: did you do like me? Did you sort of go

1715
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 1: through it once and maybe go through a second time?

1716
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 1: And maybe you haven't seen or haven't read about the

1717
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,720
Speaker 1: other endings. And of course free will you all have

1718
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: it or maybe you all don't have it but you

1719
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:32,639
Speaker 1: think you have it, which however you want to look

1720
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 1: at it. You all have some thoughts about free will

1721
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:37,640
Speaker 1: you all you all have some experience to share about this,

1722
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: and we would love to hear from you in the meantime,

1723
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:41,719
Speaker 1: if you want to check out more Stuff to Blow

1724
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,520
Speaker 1: Your Mind, you can find us anywhere you get your podcasts.

1725
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 1: You can certainly go to stuff to Blow your Mind

1726
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:48,679
Speaker 1: dot com and that will redirect you to a place

1727
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 1: where you can find the episodes and wherever you get

1728
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: the show. We just have to ask that you support

1729
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: us by rating and reviewing and subscribing. And don't forget

1730
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:00,480
Speaker 1: we have another show out there titled Invention and Invention

1731
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:04,719
Speaker 1: covers human techno history, one invention at a time. Huge

1732
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson,

1733
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 1: who's doing a heroic quick turnaround on today's episode, So

1734
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 1: praise him, everyone, Praise him. Uh. If you would like

1735
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:17,240
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with with notes on

1736
01:34:17,280 --> 01:34:19,680
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

1737
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 1: the future, just to say hi, you can email us

1738
01:34:22,320 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1739
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart

1740
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:37,120
Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1741
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:39,960
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1742
01:34:40,000 --> 01:35:00,160
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.