Speaker 1: Today on Parts Pervillion, we talk about Michael Reagan. Who
Speaker 1: is he, what's he like, and what's he going to
Speaker 1: do now that he's the top environmental regulator in the
Speaker 1: United States of America. Hello, and welcome back once again
Speaker 1: to Parts Pervillion, the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, David Schultz. So you may recall that shortly
Speaker 1: after Joe Biden was elected, we had Bloomberg Laws Stephen
Speaker 1: Lee on the podcast to talk about who the new
Speaker 1: president might pick to lead the EPA. Stephen throughout a
Speaker 1: few names back then, like California air regulator Mary Nichols
Speaker 1: or Washington State governor Jay Insley, but as it turned out,
Speaker 1: Biden went with none of those people and instead tapped
Speaker 1: Michael Reagan, an environmental regulator from North Carolina. So Stephen's
Speaker 1: crystal ball was perhaps not so clear, but now he's
Speaker 1: more than made up for it by scoring an exclusive
Speaker 1: interview with Reagan himself. Yesterday, Reagan chatted with Stephen and
Speaker 1: our Bloomberg News colleague En Delouis about what he wants
Speaker 1: to accomplish as the head of the EPA and how
Speaker 1: he's going to accomplish it. So this morning, I got
Speaker 1: Stephen on the line to get a better sense of
Speaker 1: where the EPA may be headed under its new boss,
Speaker 1: and just who Michael Reagan actually is. Michael Reagan has
Speaker 1: been doing environmental policy work for a long time. He
Speaker 1: is a forty four year old fellow from Goldsboro, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: He went to North Carolina A and T State, which
Speaker 1: is an HBCU, and he then went to work at
Speaker 1: the EPA on air quality during the Clinton years. And
Speaker 1: from there he went to the Environmental Defense Fund, which
Speaker 1: is a major advocacy group. He was operating at a
Speaker 1: high level and making a name for himself, and then
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen he got a big job, which was
Speaker 1: the secretary of the North Carolina Apartment of Environmental Quality.
Speaker 1: And while he was there, he scored some big wins,
Speaker 1: including a settlement with Duke Energy that required them to
Speaker 1: clean up eighty million tons of coal ash, which is
Speaker 1: the biggest coal ash clean up in US history. So
Speaker 1: by that point he had pretty firmly established himself as
Speaker 1: a guy with a lot of experience and strong credentials,
Speaker 1: and that's when President Biden nominated him to be the
Speaker 1: head of the EPA. Now that said, I do kind
Speaker 1: of want to put you on blast here, Stephen, because
Speaker 1: you came on this podcast right after Biden was elected
Speaker 1: and we talked about the shortlist for who he would
Speaker 1: appoint as the EPA head, and Michael Reagan was not
Speaker 1: on that shortlist. So what happened? I thought it was
Speaker 1: going to be you know, Mary Nichols or Jay Insley.
Speaker 1: You know, where did Reagan come? He was? He seemed
Speaker 1: like a you know, out of the blue. You know,
Speaker 1: you're right. I think it it took a lot of
Speaker 1: people by surprise. It took me by surprise. He was,
Speaker 1: as I say, he was a guy who had a
Speaker 1: lot of credentials, but he was not a guy who
Speaker 1: was sort of, you know, nationally known and at least
Speaker 1: my expectation was that Biden was going to name someone
Speaker 1: at the EPA who was sort of a name brand
Speaker 1: person or at least in the environmental world, which I
Speaker 1: think Michael Reagan was to some extent. But it was
Speaker 1: a surprise in Mary Nichols, as you say, she was
Speaker 1: considered to be the front runner for quite a while.
Speaker 1: And then in Reagan's case, I think it helps that
Speaker 1: he has been so active on environmental Justice throughout his career.
Speaker 1: That's been a really big focus of his He is
Speaker 1: African American, and so I feel like that was one
Speaker 1: of the sort of criteria that Biden was really thinking
Speaker 1: about when he was when he was trying to pick
Speaker 1: someone to lead DPA. So you and Jenna Lewis spoke
Speaker 1: with him yesterday. Tell me what he was like. You know,
Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to interview his predecessor, Andrew Wheeler
Speaker 1: a few times times, and you know, he was actually
Speaker 1: pretty approachable, but could get a little icy if you
Speaker 1: asked a question he didn't like. What's Reagan like? What's
Speaker 1: his temperament? He strikes me as a nice guy. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the first things that people always say about
Speaker 1: Michael Reagan is that he is a consensus builder. He
Speaker 1: listens to everyone, He can bring people together, and you
Speaker 1: really sense that when you talk to him. You know,
Speaker 1: he comes across as just a very friendly, kind of
Speaker 1: affable guy. He's got a really calm way about him
Speaker 1: that I think is appealing to people on both sides
Speaker 1: of the aisle. And you saw some of that on
Speaker 1: display in his Senate confirmation hearing when he really kind
Speaker 1: of charmed the lawmakers, I think even some of the
Speaker 1: ones who were ideologically dead set against him, and I
Speaker 1: look forward and look forward to having conversations with you,
Speaker 1: your staff and others on how we get there. I
Speaker 1: appreciate that, and I think you're not going to have
Speaker 1: a lot of good discussions, quite honestly, and I'm grateful
Speaker 1: for your sentiments I was thinking about specifically, and probably
Speaker 1: in a around or maybe even over coffee sometime, we'll
Speaker 1: talk more about things like not a bomb thrower. No,
Speaker 1: he which is not to say that he's not tough,
Speaker 1: because he has been tough on industry in the past.
Speaker 1: But you know, David, I think, to me, this is
Speaker 1: one of the interesting dynamics that we're going to see
Speaker 1: play out. We're sort of in this honeymoon period right
Speaker 1: now where Democrats and environmentalists are really excited about having this,
Speaker 1: you know, young, dynamic, smart guy at the head of
Speaker 1: the EPA, and he hasn't been scuffed up yet by
Speaker 1: Republicans in Congress or by big business because he just
Speaker 1: started the job. But there will come a time, for
Speaker 1: sure when that will happen. And and there will also
Speaker 1: surely be times when he will disappoint environmentalists by not
Speaker 1: going far enough. And of course that's always a critical
Speaker 1: turning point. You know, once a person gets scuffed up
Speaker 1: a little, does that change the way that people view
Speaker 1: him or her or does it limit his or her
Speaker 1: ability to get things done. So let's talk about your
Speaker 1: discussion and what his to do list was. It sounded
Speaker 1: like he really wanted to talk about infrastructure and the
Speaker 1: recently released by an infrastructure plan. But one of the
Speaker 1: most significant things that he told you that you and
Speaker 1: Jen wrote about was that it sounds like he's ready
Speaker 1: to take pretty significant action on automobiles and auto emissions.
Speaker 1: What what's he getting ready to do? Yeah, Reagan said,
Speaker 1: the administration is on track to propose new limits on
Speaker 1: auto emissions by the end of July. So right now,
Speaker 1: the EPA is in the process of rewriting a rule
Speaker 1: that was put out during the Trump era that that
Speaker 1: weakened limits on auto emissions through the twenty twenty six
Speaker 1: model year. And so to change that, the EPA is
Speaker 1: going to have to do a new rulemaking and so
Speaker 1: that'll take time and there'll be a lot of back
Speaker 1: and forth with the auto industry. We don't know what
Speaker 1: the proposed rule is going to look like. But just
Speaker 1: to provide a little bit of context, under Obama, the
Speaker 1: EPA required new cars to reach fifty four miles per
Speaker 1: gallon by twenty twenty six model year, and then Trump
Speaker 1: lowered it to around forty miles per gallon. So now
Speaker 1: if Biden wants to put the US on a path
Speaker 1: to a net zero economy by twenty fifty, which is
Speaker 1: what they've said, they're going to have to not only
Speaker 1: claw back the Obama targets, but probably outdo them. And
Speaker 1: that is going to be the challenge. Yeah, that is
Speaker 1: interesting to see whether he'll just go back to what
Speaker 1: the status quo was or to get even more aggressive.
Speaker 1: The other angle here with auto emissions is California, which
Speaker 1: makes everything more complicated for those listeners who don't know.
Speaker 1: California has an exemption that or had an exemption that
Speaker 1: allows them to set their own auto emission standards just
Speaker 1: for their state, and during the Obama administration, California and
Speaker 1: the federal government agreed to just do one number. During
Speaker 1: the Trump administration, that agreement broke apart and there was
Speaker 1: extremely acrimonious Where does Reagan stand on this? Does he
Speaker 1: want to give power back? To California to do its
Speaker 1: own thing. What he has said is that he is
Speaker 1: going to look closely at the EPA statutory authority. Of course,
Speaker 1: they believe that they do have the authority to do this.
Speaker 1: You know, it's also interesting that he didn't explicitly rule
Speaker 1: out the possibility of emissions rules from the EPA that
Speaker 1: are so tough that they basically ban gas powered cars.
Speaker 1: And going back to California, you know, Governor Gavin Newsom,
Speaker 1: i think it was last year, said that sales of
Speaker 1: new gas powered cars are going to be outright banned
Speaker 1: by twenty thirty five. So Reagan isn't talking about that
Speaker 1: kind of thing, but he did leave the door open
Speaker 1: at least as as that's what I heard to you know,
Speaker 1: really tough rules that would make it, you know, just
Speaker 1: very expensive for automakers to make gas powered cars and
Speaker 1: for consumers to buy them. So it sounds like the
Speaker 1: disagreements between the EPA and California are, if not nullified,
Speaker 1: basically you know, have been swept under the rug. Now
Speaker 1: that that Reagan is in office, they're they're more or
Speaker 1: less on the same page or almost the same page. Well,
Speaker 1: and you know, the auto industry actually also supports this
Speaker 1: sort of compromise approach on vehicle emissions that they did
Speaker 1: strike in California, so they are not totally opposed to
Speaker 1: making cleaner cars. I think that part of the reason
Speaker 1: for that is that, you know, they've already spent a
Speaker 1: lot of money over the years developing more efficient engines.
Speaker 1: They don't want to see those investments go to waste.
Speaker 1: I think there's also part of it that they don't
Speaker 1: like the bad publicity that goes with rolling back emission standards.
Speaker 1: So this is really a case where I think Reagan's
Speaker 1: consensus building skills are going to be put to the test.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the auto industry here, because
Speaker 1: you know, this was a weird dynamic during the Trump
Speaker 1: administration and now it's still playing out that the auto
Speaker 1: industry wasn't totally on board with rolling back the emission standards,
Speaker 1: and now it seems like they're okay with, you know,
Speaker 1: tightening them again. Do you think that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why Reagan made this or is really making this
Speaker 1: one of the first things he's gonna do, is because
Speaker 1: there's not a huge industry pushed back here as opposed
Speaker 1: to some other environmental you know agenda items where he
Speaker 1: would get really really strong pushed back from the private sector. Well,
Speaker 1: he is a pretty strategic guy, so I'm sure they
Speaker 1: are gaming out, you know, where can we score some
Speaker 1: quick wins and where are we likely to have a
Speaker 1: lot of trouble. But you know, we also know that
Speaker 1: this administration is very serious about trying to drive down emissions,
Speaker 1: and transportation is the biggest source of carbon emissions in
Speaker 1: the US economy, so it does make sense that he
Speaker 1: would take aim at that. And it also matches up
Speaker 1: with Biden's plan in the Infrastructure proposal to spend one
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy four billion dollars to get people to
Speaker 1: buy electric vehicles. Okay, and finally I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you about, you know, rollbacks. You know, one of the
Speaker 1: first things that the Trump administration did when it came
Speaker 1: into office was rolled back a lot of what the
Speaker 1: Obama administration did. Now it seems like the Biden administrations
Speaker 1: rolling back the rollbacks. Do you think that Reagan's first
Speaker 1: year in office or maybe beyond, is just going to
Speaker 1: be spent kind of doing what his predecessor did, or
Speaker 1: do you think that there are going to be new policies,
Speaker 1: and he's going to take the EPA in a different direction.
Speaker 1: It's not just going to be reverting back to the
Speaker 1: status quo. I have a feeling they're going to have
Speaker 1: to do everything. You know, some of the Trump era
Speaker 1: rules that they want to redo, in addition to auto emissions,
Speaker 1: would limit methane releases from the oil and gas sector
Speaker 1: and clamp down on emissions from power plants. That's a
Speaker 1: huge one, of course. And then in the category of
Speaker 1: new policies, I think you could put the Biden Infrastructure proposal,
Speaker 1: which would spend one hundred billion dollars on clean energy,
Speaker 1: and forty five billion dollars to replace all the nation's
Speaker 1: lead pipes, you know, billions to modernize water systems, and
Speaker 1: on and on. And then another new policy is the
Speaker 1: EPA's heavy emphasis on environmental justice. And just today Reagan
Speaker 1: gave instructions to the agency's employees that basically told them
Speaker 1: to bulk up their enforcement of environment told violations in
Speaker 1: frontline and fence line communities. You know, the Biden administration
Speaker 1: believes that this is we're in a climate emergency, and
Speaker 1: so they have so much work to do. And I
Speaker 1: really think that Reagan's managerial and political skills are going
Speaker 1: to be tested. That was Bloomberg Law environmental reporter Stephen Lee.
Speaker 1: And that's it for today's episode of Parts per Billion.
Speaker 1: If you want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter.
Speaker 1: We use the handle at environment. That's at environment, nothing
Speaker 1: else E N V I R O N M E
Speaker 1: N T. I'm at David B. Schultz if you want
Speaker 1: to congratulate me on being able to spell environment. Today's
Speaker 1: episode of parsberbillion was produced by myself, David Schultz, with
Speaker 1: special help from Chuck McCutcheon. Parts per billion was created
Speaker 1: by Jessica Coombs and Rachel Dagle, and our executive producer
Speaker 1: is Josh Block. Thank you so much for listening. Hi,
Speaker 1: this is Adam Allington, the hosting producer of uncommon Law
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