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Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: to my I guess you could call it the third

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Speaker 1: what If episode, although it was I gave you a

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Speaker 1: two parter in the first what if of this holiday season,

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Speaker 1: which was the twenty twenty what ifs. I knew, we

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Speaker 1: knew there'd be a lot of them. Everybody wanted to

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Speaker 1: go through them, and it was necessary, but it was

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Speaker 1: a really healthy exercise. I hope you got I got

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Speaker 1: a lot out of it, and you know, the big conclusion,

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Speaker 1: as I said, before for me and I still am

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Speaker 1: carrying this is just how much Biden's presidency essentially got

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Speaker 1: completely changed in the post election environment, right and more so,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think the initial motivation for doing the

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Speaker 1: what if on twenty twenty was, you know, how different

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Speaker 1: was would Trump two point zero b as a continuation

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Speaker 1: of his first term versus with the And there's no

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Speaker 1: doubt it is. There are a lot of large differences,

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Speaker 1: and there certainly I think would be there would be

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Speaker 1: less upheaval. I think that was the But I really think,

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Speaker 1: I really think what turned out to be an underrated

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Speaker 1: part of the what if it was doing the other

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Speaker 1: what if, which is what if Trump had conceded gracefully?

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Speaker 1: How much that would have ended the era of Trump

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Speaker 1: right then? Because we know how those worlds plays in

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Speaker 1: some ways. Trump's own personal instinct of his fear of

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Speaker 1: being sort of eradicated from history or filed into the

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Speaker 1: dustbin of history, you know, his need to not be

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Speaker 1: erased is so great that he sort of almost singularly

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Speaker 1: created a new timeline for himself. And it was very

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Speaker 1: impactful both on the Biden presidency itself and of course

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Speaker 1: Trump two point zero. So there's no doubt, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you it's an interesting I think you look. There's

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Speaker 1: no overrating Trump's initial victory in twenty sixteen. But in

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Speaker 1: some ways the changes Trump is making to the presidency

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Speaker 1: to our politics are more impactful, not because of his

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election but because of his twenty twenty loss

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Speaker 1: and his behavior around it. Anyway, it is apascitating. So

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Speaker 1: in that spirit, the other big what if that got

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Speaker 1: a ton of requests sort of like even you know

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Speaker 1: people would submit it, which was a what if nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven hadn't happened? Meaning and really the more realistic

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Speaker 1: version of this is what if we had stopped it?

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Speaker 1: Which we were very close, right, we could have easily seen.

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Speaker 1: You know, we learned a lot lesson about stove piping

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Speaker 1: of intelligence, but you know, the bread crumbs were there

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Speaker 1: if we were looking, if we knew to look for

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Speaker 1: those bread crumbs, about the Saudi citizens going to fight

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Speaker 1: schools and all of that. So and sure it looks

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Speaker 1: easy to see. Oh that needle in that haystack was

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Speaker 1: so easy to see. How did they miss it? Or

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Speaker 1: it's possible maybe Bill Clinton gets bin laden when he

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Speaker 1: takes the shot at him back in ninety eight during

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Speaker 1: the middle of the Lewinski thing. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: dive into that, because I do think what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven was it's is that it you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a phrase that got said all the time.

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Speaker 1: Nine to eleven changed everything, and it did change a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, And so I think it is hard

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out the counterfactual of what would

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Speaker 1: have happened without nine to eleven. What does Bush presidency

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Speaker 1: look like with No. Nine to eleven? What does the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party look like with No. Nine to eleven? You know,

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Speaker 1: and what does the media world look like with No.

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Speaker 1: Nine to eleven? And I'm going to get to that

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Speaker 1: in a few minutes. So look, to start out, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a way to say this, nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: didn't just change what we covered. It also changed how

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Speaker 1: we consumed information, and in some ways, I think we're

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Speaker 1: going to discover it accelerated sort of the attention, the

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Speaker 1: the the importance of the intention economy, because you know

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Speaker 1: what nine to eleven did to our psyche as a country, right,

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Speaker 1: we always felt, you know, look, the only time we

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Speaker 1: were attacked before then really was Pearl Harbor Hawhy wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even a state when that happened. We've never been truly

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Speaker 1: hit on the homeland, right on the continental United States. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there had been a bomb, a bombing of the World

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Speaker 1: Trade Center in eighteen ninety three, and we've certainly had

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Speaker 1: our sheriff terrorist attacks and hijackings. We had the Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: City bombing, which was domestic terrorism. So it's not as

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Speaker 1: if we didn't have these things. But this was a

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Speaker 1: what a form sort of a non state foreign power

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Speaker 1: right in Al Qaeda, and it really rattled our psyche

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Speaker 1: because it we were suddenly our vulnerabilities just showed up everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and we realized how vulnerable we were to essentially asymmetric warfare,

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Speaker 1: how vulnerable we could be to terrorism. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know my feeling on October one, two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: was that Washington, DC was going to feel like Tel

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Speaker 1: Aviv in the eighties and nineties, where you just or

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Speaker 1: even Berlin back then, you just sort of had to

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Speaker 1: accept the premise that there were going to be more attacks.

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Speaker 1: The most remarkable thing that happened post nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: is what didn't happen post nine eleven, right, And the

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Speaker 1: point was is that I think it was our own

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Speaker 1: Why did we feel why did I feel that way?

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Speaker 1: Why did we all feel like we were so vulnerable?

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Speaker 1: Because that initial sense of oh my god, they turned

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Speaker 1: our own systems against us, right the airline are you know,

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Speaker 1: domestic airplanes something any of us could have been on.

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Speaker 1: And so it really had a psychological impact on us

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Speaker 1: as a society. So what happened we sort of we

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Speaker 1: sort of clung to information. Right, It's what really turned

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Speaker 1: the three news channels into twenty four hour Like, if

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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, not all the channels programmed twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours a day. After nine to eleven, there was an

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Speaker 1: intensity to program twenty four hours a day. I was

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Speaker 1: at the hotline at the time. We added publications. We

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Speaker 1: called something we added something called Hotline World Extra because

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Speaker 1: we were just all so consumed with this network of

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Speaker 1: terrorists that we're just going to hobble societies all over

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Speaker 1: the world. And we certainly, you know, all of us

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Speaker 1: got a lesson in in extremism, in general religious extremism.

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Speaker 1: So it was the point being is that we we

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Speaker 1: really it changed, it changed our own psyche and I

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Speaker 1: and that's so in doing this, what I've exercised, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do my best here. It is really hard.

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Speaker 1: This turned out to be a much harder attempt at

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Speaker 1: what I'm going to What I was trying to do

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Speaker 1: is is it's my way of saying, like I said before,

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Speaker 1: I'm there's gonna be a lot more questions asked than

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Speaker 1: definitive takes. I'm gonna have some theories of directionally where

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Speaker 1: we could have come. But I want that initial underscoring

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Speaker 1: of just the real impact of nine to eleven was

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Speaker 1: psychological on us, and in some ways a question that

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Speaker 1: I want that I'm pursued throughout this what if exercise

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Speaker 1: that I put together was how much of our information

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Speaker 1: ecosystem problems of today began with both our desire for

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Speaker 1: more information constantly frankly to make us feel better because

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Speaker 1: we felt so unsafe and insecure. And when you do,

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Speaker 1: you're just constantly seeking more information. Right if you've ever

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Speaker 1: been prepared for a snowstorm or a hurricane, and you

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Speaker 1: know a big storm is coming but you hadn't hit yet,

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Speaker 1: and you're waiting, what do you do? You keep looking

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Speaker 1: for more information. You want a more detailed forecast, more

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Speaker 1: detailed what if scenario is basically because it's really your

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Speaker 1: own survival instinct. It's human nature where the more information

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Speaker 1: we have, the more we think in our own heads,

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Speaker 1: we can plan for our survival in these things. So

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Speaker 1: I cannot underscore how that is the through line for

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Speaker 1: me that I think that this is, this is what

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Speaker 1: what sort of really changes changes things because and there

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Speaker 1: are some things that I don't think change at all,

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Speaker 1: the dot com bubble, things like that. So let's start

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Speaker 1: with the America of two thousand. That keeps breathing is

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Speaker 1: probably the best way to put it. We're still so

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Speaker 1: we're living in this post Cold War home. There is

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Speaker 1: concern at this point it's early odts. There is there's

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Speaker 1: been a transition in Russian leadership. Is this guy Putin

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Speaker 1: going to be you know, a small D democrat or not?

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Speaker 1: And the keeping Russia in the West was a priority

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Speaker 1: before nine to eleven I think would have stayed a

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Speaker 1: priority with Bush two under that scenario, I don't know

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Speaker 1: whether it succeeds or not. Right, if Putin is who

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Speaker 1: he is, which we now, if you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anything in the relationship changes Putin. Right.

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Speaker 1: The question I have is when does you know, by

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight Putin's invading Georgia, which in some

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Speaker 1: ways was the precursor to Ukraine First Crime in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: In that, does that accelerate, does that get delayed? Does

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Speaker 1: the you know, our focus on all things nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven and Islamic terrorism and domestic security, which then took

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Speaker 1: our eye off the ball a little bit of European security,

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Speaker 1: of keeping Russia in the west, of sort of these

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Speaker 1: fledgling Eastern European democracies. I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: that that probably is the biggest you know that and

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Speaker 1: bringing China along, right, because at this point everybody's very

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Speaker 1: bullish on China. In early two thousand, late nineties, there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a huge difference between Gore and Bush and that

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Speaker 1: two thousand campaign on China. It was a little bit

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Speaker 1: of rhetoric, but not too much. Essentially, both were were institutionalists.

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Speaker 1: Both were believers that, hey, bringing economic opening, the opening

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Speaker 1: the China economy will ultimately be good for democracy, good

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Speaker 1: for freedom, et cetera. So there was a bipartisan consensus

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Speaker 1: in China, which we now know we all got wrong. Right,

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Speaker 1: There was this bipartisan consensus that China, that essentially we

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Speaker 1: were going to be able to bring China along and

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Speaker 1: eventually the communism Communist Party would break there because of

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Speaker 1: middle class demands for the state, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: None of that has turned out to be true. China

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Speaker 1: was able to somehow bring the country into a controlled

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Speaker 1: market economy. It's not a free market, but it's a

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Speaker 1: it is sort of they got into it right, and

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Speaker 1: we let them in because of the desire to get

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Speaker 1: American businesses into China. So I do think that we're

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Speaker 1: sort of pursuing and it's much more front and center

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Speaker 1: this bringing China along, you know, and maybe there's maybe

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Speaker 1: there's more of that. I do think, by the way,

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush's presidency was going to be much more

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Speaker 1: focused on the Western hemisphere pre nine to eleven. Here

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Speaker 1: was a guy, and we probably try to attempt some

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Speaker 1: massive immigration reform sooner in the Bush presidency, easily that happens,

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Speaker 1: I think in Bush one. In the first term. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there's a second, right, we don't know

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Speaker 1: what the second term is over. It's probably over the

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Speaker 1: economy in some form or another, because most elections are

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Speaker 1: unless there is something essentially overwhelming the economic issue in America,

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Speaker 1: which sometimes it's war in the war in Iraq nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: Those are types of stories that do that. But I

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Speaker 1: do think I go back to the information ecosystem. You know,

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven happened nine months after the delayed two

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Speaker 1: thousand election, and I do think that without nine to eleven,

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Speaker 1: we're probably in a much more polarized political environment in Washington.

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Speaker 1: We cannot forget that there's still a lot of Democrats

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Speaker 1: who don't accept that Bush one Farnce Square. After nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, those you know that none of that became mainstream, right.

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Speaker 1: Al Gore is a bigger figure inside the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: pre nine eleven than he is post nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: Probably means al Gore is more likely to be the nominee,

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Speaker 1: you know, four, it's more likely without a nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven he is a bit more front and center Democrats

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Speaker 1: are a bit more, a bit less willing to work

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Speaker 1: with Bush. There is and Bush has to make more

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Speaker 1: effort to sort of get legitimacy. You know that that

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Speaker 1: was you know his you know after look we we

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Speaker 1: you know. The Bush presidency basically began on September eleventh,

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Speaker 1: as far as history is concerned, but we forget this

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Speaker 1: was this was a this was a presidency that was

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Speaker 1: having to immediately make the case that it was legitimate.

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Speaker 1: It was the first presidency we'd had in the modern

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Speaker 1: era that won via the electoral college, not the popular vote.

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Speaker 1: The recounts of Florida that the media was doing would

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Speaker 1: have been extraordinarily more covered and consequential without nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: It took all about anywhere from nine to months to

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Speaker 1: twelve months. Those things still happened, but there was almost

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Speaker 1: like they looked more like political science experiments than they

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Speaker 1: did mainstream news stories. Because I think again, so much,

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Speaker 1: so much of the resources of the national news media

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Speaker 1: was devoted more to covering nine to eleven. And then

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Speaker 1: of course with the two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: and the focus on all that, So I think you

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Speaker 1: have to you know, when you think about the political environment,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't lose side of that. But I keep coming

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Speaker 1: back to the acceleration of the information ecosystem almost becoming

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Speaker 1: wired into our brains. Right, we'd never had anything like

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Speaker 1: the two thousand election, And you know, my old friend

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Speaker 1: Lester Holt became sort of he got a nickname Old

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Speaker 1: iron Pants, right because he was constantly able to go

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Speaker 1: hours and hours without leaving the leaving the anchor table,

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Speaker 1: no matter whatever. Nature was calling for him, and it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, I believe we started the ticker, and then

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Speaker 1: the tickers on cable news weren't ubiquitous. Then nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven happens and they become ubiquitous, and it really, I

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Speaker 1: think also accelerated. Not everybody had moved fully to the

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Speaker 1: Internet to get their information and get news and information.

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Speaker 1: Nine to eleven was a bit more of a trigger

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Speaker 1: because you suddenly needed real time information. You didn't want

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Speaker 1: to wait for the newspaper, you didn't want to wait

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Speaker 1: for the evening news, so you did anything that was

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Speaker 1: in the immediate. Cable news was immediate, and the Internet

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Speaker 1: was immediate. So it I do think that one of

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Speaker 1: the cultural impacts in nine to eleven that probably is

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Speaker 1: delayed without nine to eleven happening is sort of is

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Speaker 1: our full embrace the digitized information ecosystem. Was this eventually

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Speaker 1: going to happen? Of course it was, but all of

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Speaker 1: this suddenly there was more demand for immediate information. So

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Speaker 1: what happened? Companies responded by creating more products to feed

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Speaker 1: this demand for more information, and so we end up,

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Speaker 1: you know, with social media beginning in twenty oh seven,

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Speaker 1: in twenty oh eight, Does all that happen on the

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Speaker 1: same timeline? Is it adopted as mainstream on the same timeline?

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Speaker 1: My theory is that it is not. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is one of the underrated parts of the impact

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Speaker 1: of nine to eleven on us is that. So I

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Speaker 1: think when you throw that in there, I think that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty important differentiator and how our timeline changes. So

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Speaker 1: then there are the things that you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: we've all lived with, still live with, that wouldn't have happened, right,

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Speaker 1: the emergency that never ends. So there's no Patriot Act,

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Speaker 1: there's no Iraq war, there's no permanent sort of non state, right,

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Speaker 1: we don't have this sort of congressionally authorized war against

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Speaker 1: terrorists that are still being the sort of ambibiguously worded

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Speaker 1: pieces of legislation are being used now to justify attacks

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Speaker 1: in Iran, attacks in Venezuela. And so we don't have anything.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the USA Patriot Act, we don't have

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Speaker 1: the Department of Homeland Security. So let's immediately realize this, right,

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security. The idea of the Homeland Security Department had

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Speaker 1: been partolating for a while among the sort of the

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Speaker 1: there's a group of sort of good government infrastructure folks.

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Speaker 1: And because you know, this was sort of a plan

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Speaker 1: that had been sitting on the shelf, right, there was

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Speaker 1: always some question why are there? You know, why is

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Speaker 1: the Secret Service with Treasury? You know, yes, it started

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Speaker 1: as sort of looking at counterfeit money, but it's bigger

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Speaker 1: than that. Now, where's the Coast Guard? Should that be

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Speaker 1: with the Pentagon? Should that be here? And so there

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Speaker 1: was this idea of like, okay, should there be a

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Speaker 1: some domestic security agencies, arguably including the FBI. But for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, we didn't put the FBI in here that

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Speaker 1: you know, should be in this cabinet department. I will

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Speaker 1: at some point do a time machine about you know,

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Speaker 1: I I the entire creation of the Homeland Security Department

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Speaker 1: was just a reminder of why, as much as I

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Speaker 1: would love to see more government efficiency, it is sometimes

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Speaker 1: impossible to make happen because of members of Congress refusing

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Speaker 1: to give up a subcommittee a subcommittee influence on some

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Speaker 1: dying agency that should go away, But because this person

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Speaker 1: wants to gavel. They think it's an important government entity

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Speaker 1: whole point of Homeland the Department of Homeland Security was

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Speaker 1: sold as a way, Hey, we're going to create more efficiencies.

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Speaker 1: This is going to put agencies, you know, border security

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Speaker 1: should be in there, so igrant Now. I tell you

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Speaker 1: what people didn't realize at the time is that that

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Speaker 1: somehow that Homeland Security would simply become an immigration agency

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Speaker 1: over time. But that is what it's been turned into. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: it feels like that that is, and it could if

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Speaker 1: you listened to my conversation with Jonathan Martin. In some

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Speaker 1: ways the obsession of turning the Department Homeland Security almost

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Speaker 1: into singularly a border enforcement department. When it drops the

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Speaker 1: ball on a natural disaster with FEMA or drops the

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Speaker 1: ball on some other issues with the Coastguard, is that

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Speaker 1: going to cause? Is that going to cause Christy Nomes

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Speaker 1: some problems perception problems if something bad happens on her watch,

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Speaker 1: regardless of whether she was following orders or not. So

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Speaker 1: I do think that was, you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: and this and this is another sort of what if

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Speaker 1: scenario here did Trump Trump's did Bush's endorsement? And the

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Speaker 1: Republican member who was in charge of the House and

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Speaker 1: the Senate. The Senate was divided. Democrats had a narrow

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Speaker 1: majority thanks to a party switch for about until the

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Speaker 1: twenty oh two mid terms, but Republicans had controlled the House,

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Speaker 1: and obviously the White House is there. They became George W.

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Speaker 1: Bush became synonymous with expanding government right. So it really

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Speaker 1: was this beginning of redefining what is conservatives. And one

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Speaker 1: could argue that the splintering of the Republican Party into

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Speaker 1: this magafaction versus this business wing right. George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: was very much right the avatar of the business wing

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Speaker 1: of the Republican Party, and so the embrace of China,

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Speaker 1: the embrace of expansion of government power, I do think

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Speaker 1: planted the seeds for what is now known as the

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Speaker 1: Maga wing of the party. Right, these are the true

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Speaker 1: you know. I think Marjorie Taylor Green really in some

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Speaker 1: ways articulates this version of conservative better than anybody out there.

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Speaker 1: She talks about being America first. Hey, no get out

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Speaker 1: of other people's foreign wars, no foreign excursions. Right, that

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Speaker 1: mindset the real sort of more Pat Buchanan isolationists view

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Speaker 1: and sertain where Trump's instincts go. Right, I say, is

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Speaker 1: instincts right. He's instinctively an isolationist but can't help himself

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Speaker 1: and always wants to be in the middle of a

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Speaker 1: deal here, a middle of a deal there. But we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't underestimate that the birth of the Trump wing of

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party, or the rebirth of it, right, it

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Speaker 1: was a sort of a dormant wing of the party

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Speaker 1: that the Republican support for these expansive government powers that

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Speaker 1: came in in two thousand and two, two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, the expansion of Department Onland Security TSA.

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Speaker 1: I thought, imagine a Democrat advocating all of this, right,

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Speaker 1: there'd be these protests allah from the right that we're

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Speaker 1: seeing already with Zoon Mormondani. Right. And it was a

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Speaker 1: Republican presidency that increased the surveillance state, a republican presidency

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Speaker 1: that sort of concentrated more power in the executive branch. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it is. I do think some of the seeds

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Speaker 1: of the rise of MAGA are due to some of

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Speaker 1: the responses to nine to eleven. And then of course

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Speaker 1: there's the Iraq War itself, you know, and you know,

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Speaker 1: this is not my first sort of version of doing

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Speaker 1: various what ifs on that are nine to eleven related.

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Speaker 1: I did a what if on if Gored become president

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Speaker 1: in two thousand, how how do we politically respond to

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven if if it were the ninth year

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Speaker 1: of a democratic presidency when nine to eleven happens, rather

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Speaker 1: than the first year of a republican presidency after eight

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Speaker 1: years of a democratic presidency. I do think things would

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Speaker 1: have been a bit more polarized and the response to

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven had goreb been president than with Bush's president.

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Speaker 1: But you know, all of it sort of we became.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you think about the impact of nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven on on our politics, I do think, like

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Speaker 1: I said, Bush's support of a stronger, more robust, larger government,

430
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: I do think inadvertently planted the seeds for the rise

431
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: of Trump a little bit. And then I think when

432
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: it comes to our obsession and consuming of news, it

433
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: then inevitably led the cable news channels to one to

434
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: have to Instead of being informational, they suddenly became affirmational, right,

435
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of the flag pin fights

436
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: who was the most patriotic news channel and that was

437
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: being used as a wedge right folks at Fox in particular,

438
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: we're trying to use patriotism as a way to disqualify journalism.

439
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: And it was the beginning of this sort of part

440
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: one of what became a very polarized news information consumption market.

441
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: But in some ways, because we were constantly clinging to

442
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: these cable news channels for information, then it quickly morphed

443
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: us into and morphed the cable news channels into being

444
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: captured by their audience, so to you know, think of

445
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: it this way. Right before nine to eleven, we thought

446
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: of the news as sort of more informational things we

447
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: needed to know, but it wasn't a priority. After nine

448
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: to eleven, news became something you had to follow for

449
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,959
Speaker 1: your own survival, for vigilance, and in many ways, nine

450
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: to eleven created an entire generation of news junkies, reinforced

451
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: news junkiedom and where you constantly felt like you needed

452
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: to have more and more information, so right, the breaking

453
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: news alerts, the constant notifications on our phones, the tickers,

454
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: and in some ways it also created impatience, right since

455
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: information we were expecting information on our fingertips all the time,

456
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: it sort of accelerated that aspect. Now, I again, I

457
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: think all of these technologies don't It's not like the

458
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: technologies don't happen. Our adoption of these new technologies or

459
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: is what accelerates. And I think that that's where I

460
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: would go, right, And now, you know, I think the

461
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: question is where we always was this an inevitable result

462
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: of once we sort of put all we put algorithms

463
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: in deciding what news we saw on all this stuff

464
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: that once these filters and this was going to happen anyway,

465
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: or would gatekeeping still be strong, would be at least

466
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: stronger today than it is. If we never have this

467
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: desire or concern or need to constantly feel as informed

468
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: as we absolutely felt like we had to have in

469
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: post nine to eleven. Without nine to eleven, would there

470
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: been a Would constant breaking news alerts have turned us off? Right?

471
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: Would unverified speculation have sort of been like, oh, that

472
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: belongs in the high end of AM radio? Would we

473
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: be less tolerant of emotional framing of news? Right? Maybe?

474
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: But I think there's a strong case to be made

475
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: that while we, I think now look at social media

476
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: as a result of smartphones, did nine to eleven actually

477
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: train us to never look away and therefore accelerate the

478
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: the creation of these social media platforms because we knew

479
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: there was a demand. Right? In many ways, you don't

480
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: create something unless you think there's a demand for it. So,

481
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: if this means we don't have politics without a hyperintendent

482
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: attentive culture, what does that look like? Right? Does this

483
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: mean we'd never have a Donald Trump or a Barack Obama?

484
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: That we saw to stick to the very I don't

485
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: want to say convent. Yeah, I guess it's conventional. You

486
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: know at the time, right, is a Barack Obama sort

487
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: of convinced that he should be running for governor before

488
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: he runs for president type of thing. Don't forget what

489
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: powered Obama to the White House arguably was the fact

490
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: that he came out early against the Iraq War before

491
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: other mainstream Democrats did it, and there was a recording

492
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: to prove it. Right, without it, does he ever win

493
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: that nomination against Hillary Clinton? Anyway? And think about how

494
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: much that how much that issue absolutely divided the Democratic

495
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: Party and what happens without it. By the way, I

496
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: don't think John Kerry's the nominee in two thousand and

497
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: four without nine to eleven. Right, Democrats needed to have

498
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: thought they needed to have a military veteran after what

499
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: happened in O two. There was this whole after the

500
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: who Max Cleland thing in two thousand and two, with

501
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: the weaponization of the Department of Homeland Security as a

502
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: wedge issue in those two thousand and two midterms, right,

503
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: it really sort of made the idea of what Democrats

504
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: need to find somebody with military service. That's what got Carrie,

505
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,239
Speaker 1: you know, sort of jump started his candidacy. You know,

506
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: I think it's more likely we have Al Gore as

507
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: nominee in two thousand and four because you're more likely

508
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: to run again. Perhaps, you know, perhaps Hillary Clinton is

509
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: not seen as this hawkish because there's nothing to be

510
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: hawkish about, and then she's a more conventional potential candidate

511
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: in twenty oh eight. Now do I think eventually in

512
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: the same mindset, we the public would have been like,

513
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what's with the dynasties? We're not just

514
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: trading Clinton for Bush for Clinton. You know, I still

515
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: think that demand would have been there, but maybe it's

516
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: not as powerful yet. Maybe it takes a one more

517
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: term of Hillary of Clinton actually serving as president before

518
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: it becomes a powerful political force on that front. So

519
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: what things still happened that probably impact our politics back then?

520
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: So essentially what replaces nine and eleven if it never happens,

521
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: I think we still have a financial crisis because that

522
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: was you know, the seeds of those were planted in

523
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: the nineties, and you know, maybe it accelerates nine to

524
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: eleven with all the extra spending that came may have

525
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: propped up the economy for an extra couple of years.

526
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: And therefore, remember there was sort of it was your

527
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: patriotic duty to go shop it do you does that?

528
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: Does all of this accelerate and maybe the financial collapse

529
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: happens in four oh five rather than oh, seven oh eight, Right,

530
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: that's possible. We still have tech discoveries, tech disruptions. The

531
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: question is is the if there's not demand for information

532
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: every second of the day, do some of these social

533
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: media platforms take off as fast as they did and

534
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: we're still going to have inequality? We were still going

535
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: to have this. And I think the question is whether

536
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: is just when it happens on how intense I look

537
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: at nine to eleven, and I assume it delayed our

538
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: inevitable sort of reckoning that was about. That was taking

539
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: the unit party reckoning right, the whether it's the center

540
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: left of the Democratic Party center right. But if you

541
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: think about it, Bush, Clinton, the Bushes and the Clintons

542
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: were really seen as between the forty yard line presidents.

543
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: And they were also on foreign policy very much in

544
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: uniparty and that and and in trade it was uniparty.

545
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: You know, both Bush and Clinton were pro NAFTA Both

546
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: Bush and Gore were pro NAFTA both, you know, so

547
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: they were both bullish on China in some ways, both

548
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: bullish un keep trying to bring Russia into the West.

549
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: So the point is is that I do think that

550
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: reckoning still takes place inside both parties. You still have

551
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: a there's still likely I have to be a financial

552
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: crisis that ends, that has a bailout. It all just depends.

553
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: I've always and I've done this. What if, right, what

554
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: if McCain had won the two thousand and eight presidency

555
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: instead of Obama. Well, instead of the Tea Party being

556
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: the driving force of the twenty ten midterms, I think

557
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: it's Occupy Wall Street that's the driving force of the

558
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: twenty ten midterms. Sort of that there's still that it's

559
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: more of a because it would have been all Republicans

560
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: making the decision. It would have been a Republican president

561
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: spending tax dollars to bail out banks and all that.

562
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: So it would have I think, just galvanized that. And

563
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: you may have had Bernie's dream of his sort of

564
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: urban rural coalition coming coming together much quicker and much

565
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: faster than even now when we haven't seen it. So

566
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: it's not as if any of these things don't happen.

567
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: If the question is on what timeline, and the more

568
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: I've gone through the what ifs on the things that

569
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: happen that we're nine to eleven derivatives, and then the

570
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: things that probably happen regardless of whether nine to eleven happens,

571
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: like the financial crisis and the continuation of tech disruptions,

572
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: I think it really is just about timing. And I

573
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: think the biggest conclusion I come to is that our

574
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: brief unity post nine to eleven essentially delayed everything that

575
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: we've been dealing with now, So probably bring everything four

576
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: years earlier. Right, But there's some open questions, right, is

577
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: there ever? You know, does a Barack Obama still rise up? Is?

578
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 1: You know? But if you don't have an Iraq war

579
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: as a defining distinction between sort of the Obama wing

580
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: and the Clinton wing, which in some ways now is

581
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: kind of the Clinton wing and the Sanders wing, with

582
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: Obama folks two thirds on the Clinton side of that argument,

583
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: one third on the Sander side of that argument. You know,

584
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: where where is that in its sort of formation? And

585
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: all of that. I think those are small details, but

586
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: the larger trend lines I'm assuming do continue. They just

587
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: go in different Look, that doesn't mean that Saddam Mussein

588
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: wasn't going to fall, and I think you still would

589
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: have had his fall. There's probably still you know, my

590
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: guess is Cheney's still kind of interested in finishing the

591
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: job with with a rock, so that there we deal

592
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: with the rock sort of the way we've been dealing

593
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: with Iran. So you know, it's not as if there

594
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: aren't the potential for some for some foreign policy uh

595
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: involvement and maybe even involvement that becomes politically less popular

596
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. But it's it all obviously looks

597
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: different and it's all consumed different. So ultimately the conclusion

598
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: I've come to is at nine to eleven in some

599
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: ways intensified and accelerated our information consuming culture, and at

600
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: the same time it delayed are political reckonings that we're

601
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: going to I think now it's there is that they

602
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: were going to come do, and in some ways nine

603
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: to eleven may have delayed them. All about a cycle, right,

604
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: due to either you know, trying to pump money into

605
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: the economy or into building up our defenses, which sort

606
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: of artificially sort of you know, expanded when you're when

607
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: you're expanding government as fast as they were, you're creating

608
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: more jobs, you're throwing money into the system. It is

609
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: sort of it is sort of propping up the you know,

610
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: having some impact on the economy, so likely delayed the

611
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: financial crisis a bit, so, you know, sort of it's

612
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: sort of two things can be true at the same time.

613
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: Right nine to eleven sort of conditioned us to become

614
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: these information junkies that now in some ways we've allowed

615
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: it to both consume us and destroy our information ecosystem.

616
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: But at the same time it delayed the political reckonings

617
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: that we're still in the middle of now, this political realignment,

618
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: which arguably, you know, as I said, you can actually

619
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: see the very first beginnings of this realignment with the

620
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: Pap Buchanan challenge of George H. W. Bush in ninety two.

621
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: It is it's still I still think you see what

622
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: we're dealing with now, all of it. We may be

623
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: on the other we have made me have already on

624
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 1: the other side of it by then, and who knows,

625
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: we may not have been as interested in celebrity candidates either,

626
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: which sort of we came so ultimately without nine to eleven,

627
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: you know, we'd still be the imperfect country that is America,

628
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: but we might be a bit less frantic, right we

629
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: might trust our institutions slightly more, or or we may

630
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: feel the same way, you know, or we may just

631
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, we may have gotten through this era quicker,

632
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: and right now we're still not done. I think we're

633
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: still not through this current realignment that it's clear we're

634
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: going through. That to me is as much a transition,

635
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: because we're transitioning from an industrial based economy to a

636
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: service globally a global service economy and its globalization, which

637
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: was an inevitable force that began in the nineties and

638
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: wasn't going to go away. And in some ways nine

639
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: to eleven I think just had a huge impact on

640
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: our psyche, had a huge impact on sort of the

641
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: perception and role of government and the size of government.

642
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: But some of these longer trends, it disrupted them for

643
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: a few years, but it didn't erase them, and it

644
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 1: didn't make them go away. So would love your reaction

645
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: to this one, Like I said, just like I did

646
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: promise with the other what if I would like to

647
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm happy to discuss other scenarios that are missing here

648
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: that I didn't fully get through. I could have gone

649
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: down a Donald RUMs rabbit rumsfeld rabbit hole. Rumsfeld was

650
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: going to do some massive Pentagon restructuring before nine to eleven.

651
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: I think we were going to shrink forces. I think

652
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: the modernization to become a more nimble military was actually

653
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: going to take place under a Rumsfeld. I remember a

654
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: lot of legacy military folks didn't like what Rumsfeld was planning.

655
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: But there were a lot of reformers, including people like

656
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, who were very got in the hole about

657
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: Rumsfeld wanted to do at the Pentagon before nine to eleven.

658
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: But then nine to eleven happens and all of those

659
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: plans go away. So there's there's there. That's just one

660
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: extra thing that that but between, you know, immigration, My

661
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: guess is Bush in his first term tries to do immigration.

662
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: Uh you know, that's the big lift he attempts without

663
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: a nine to eleven that both his tax cut and

664
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: his immigration reform. I don't know if he's any more successful,

665
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: by the way, I don't though without the specter of

666
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, maybe there's a little less anger on

667
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: the right that allows it to pass but I don't.

668
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: But it probably does nothing to stop the current sort

669
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: of current structure of where we are in the two

670
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: parties when it comes to immigration right now in current skepticism.

671
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: It just means we might have had at least a

672
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: better set of asylum laws than we do at the moment.

673
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: All right, look, this is the last What if I'm

674
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: going to read you a few that I didn't do,

675
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: and if you've got stronger feelings about them, make the

676
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: case of why you think I should spend thirty to

677
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: forty five minutes. Maybe I can turn a couple of

678
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: them into podcast time machines. My favorite one, But I

679
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: was so I didn't have enough. I wasn't as well

680
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: educated about the issue that I. It was going to

681
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: be a heavier lift for me. But this one was

682
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: what if the Greco Turkish War had ended favorably for

683
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: the Greeks, assuming it's survive World War two? What would

684
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: the long term ramifications of a modern Greek state spanning

685
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: southeastern Europe and much of western Anatolia be for regional

686
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: and world affairs? Would religious tensions be better or worse

687
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: than they are today? You know, this gets at to

688
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, what if we had You know, what if

689
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: they're essentially the French and the Brits hadn't tried to

690
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: create countries out of thin air after the fall of

691
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire. So I think it's an interesting one.

692
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: But like I said, I felt like I wasn't ready

693
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: for this another idea that we looked at, but I couldn't.

694
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't really have forty five minutes. What

695
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: happened to pro boxing? As a kid? I remember watching

696
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: boxing on Sundays with Dad. That tradition has gone. I

697
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: feel the same as slowly happening in the NFL, and

698
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: don't know what what if? To shape around that? Right?

699
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: Maybe it's what if? What if? What if mister t

700
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: never does the WWE and we start mixing boxing with

701
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: entertainment and then mixed martial arts happens. I don't know,

702
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: it's a it's interesting things. Here's another one. What if

703
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: Princess Diana had lived, which you have continued reshaping the monarchy? Interesting?

704
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: What if Nelson Mandela had never been imprisoned? Would the

705
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: would apartheid have ended sooner? Oruld the anti apartype movement

706
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: have actually lost a unifying symbol. That was an interesting one,

707
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: and again I want to find a good historian to

708
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: help me out on this one. Here was another fun

709
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: one that we decided not to do. What if Steve

710
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: Jobs hadn't been ousted from Apple in nineteen eighty five?

711
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: Would the personal computing revolution have come sooner? Or would

712
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: Apple have burned out before the iPhone era? But that's

713
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: a fun what if that. I think the folks over

714
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: at the Acquired podcast who have done this might be

715
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: better suited for if that one. And here's another one

716
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: that I actually do want to figure out how to

717
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: do next year. What Malcolm X had lived? Would his

718
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: partnership or rivalry with Martin Luther King Junior have redefined

719
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights movement second phase and the rise of

720
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: black political power in the seventies. Essentially, if both MLK

721
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: and Malcolm X had lived, would there have been a

722
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: sort of faster rise in the seventies of black political power.

723
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: It's an interesting thesis and one that I think is

724
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: worth worth diving into. And then here's another one. What

725
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: if Netflix had never pivoted to streaming? Do we still

726
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: live in the era of binge culture? Or just cable

727
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: survive longer? Boy? Those things that one I'm not one

728
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: hundred percent sure of, and I don't think it would

729
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: have carried a whole thing. But here's another one that

730
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: I do want to dig into at some point, What

731
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: if China had democratized in the nineties, how would the

732
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: global balance of power look today? The only reason I

733
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: didn't do this one, and it might be worth doing

734
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: down the road, is I think the conclusion I would

735
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: have come to if China had democratized in the nineties

736
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: would have been like, yeah, China would have been Russia,

737
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: and there'd have been an elected strong man that just

738
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: sort of stayed strong man of that country that we

739
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: probably see some combination of Modi in India meets Putin

740
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: in Russia. That that's what the leadership of China would be.

741
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: I think what we're I think the thing that I've

742
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion under the fall of the Soviet

743
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: Union and why democracy has been sort of in fits

744
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: and starts with in former Soviet republics, is just look

745
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: at the story of democracies in any country. There are

746
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: always a fits and starts, and they don't It's not

747
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: a straight line. It does eventually get there, right, you know,

748
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: but it you know, it took France a while, it

749
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 1: took Germany a while. You know, they had a false start.

750
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: The women are republican to fall once before they got it,

751
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: and it took us. But from our you know, it

752
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: took us from eighteen seventeen seventy six to nineteen sixty

753
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: five until we gave everybody the right to vote, right,

754
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: So you know it took us a while as well.

755
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: So I do think some of these it's hard to

756
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: do some of these what if I'm democracies around the world,

757
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: because the history of democracy in all of these countries

758
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: is never a straight line, right, There's sort of this circles,

759
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: Like if China is a democracy by twenty fifty, tanam

760
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: And Square is going to be seen as one of

761
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 1: the early indicators that China wanted democracy. But if China

762
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: doesn't get democracy by twenty fifty, Tienaman Square becomes less

763
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 1: and less of irrelevant moment right in the history of China.

764
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: Just something to be thinking about as you pitch your

765
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: ideas to me. Well, given that I'm recording all of

766
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: this on January tewod, it means I've now had two

767
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: days to marinate in Miami's victory over the Ohio State University.

768
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: It is. I think I told you at the start

769
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: of this college football playoff that my fan expectations were

770
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: we better win one. That would be embarrassing not to

771
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: win one. I think we you know, I won't. I

772
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: won't feel like the season successful if we're not in

773
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: the semifinals. So we're in the semifinals. So I think

774
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: that Miami's where we always should be, where we belong.

775
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: And of course, now in this day and age, can

776
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: you win two more? And let's just say that once

777
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: you get this far, you get greedy and you say

778
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: to yourself, well, you're only two games away, and let's

779
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: get this done. I go back to Miami. It's so

780
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: funny in this Miami of Miami Ohigo State game because

781
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: Miami literally was Ohio State twenty o two in this game, right,

782
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: It was sort of a you know, the announcers noted

783
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: that the last time Miami was in a relevant game

784
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: was that two thousand and three Fiesta Pole, which was

785
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: for the two thousand and two season where the upstart

786
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: was Ohio State. They were the former power trying desperately

787
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: to get into the elite. Beating Miami was the way

788
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: that they could get taken. Seriously, Miami was sort of

789
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: part of the elite of the last you know, nearly

790
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: twenty years. At that point, they had been on won

791
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: five titles in eighteen years at the time, the best

792
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: run really since the old Notre Dame Army Navy, you

793
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: know era of the forties and fifties and the Bear

794
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: Bryant era in Alabama, and it seemed like an era

795
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: that nobody was ever going to top until a guy

796
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: named Nick Saban showed up at Alabama a few years later.

797
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: But that's how this game felt that Miami was the

798
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: sort of the old, an old power that was looking

799
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: to prove it was back, and it had to beat

800
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: one of the current blue bloods, which happened to be

801
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: Ohio State. So that's why symbolically I found that the

802
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: Ohio State game was so much. This was extraordinarily important

803
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: for Miami to win, to prove that it is back.

804
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: Important for recruiting. Ohio State success over the last twenty

805
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: years has been largely due to its success at recruiting

806
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 1: in South Florida wide receivers more than anything else, and

807
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: it's been a huge blow to Miami, Florida and Florida State,

808
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:56,959
Speaker 1: Ohio State's success in recruiting South Florida, specifically that one

809
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: position group. It was important to win a game like

810
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: that in order to win some recruiting wars that we'd

811
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: been losing. Miami over the last twenty five years had

812
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: lost recruiting wars to northern schools. We had dominated the

813
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: recruiting wars against those northern powers back in the eighties

814
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: and nineties, but in the odds we were not winning those.

815
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,919
Speaker 1: We won them at first and then started to lose

816
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: them after Miami's run started to fade. So that's why

817
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 1: I think symbolically it was an important victory. But now

818
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 1: it's a very winnable right the road is there, and

819
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: Miami has built essentially not to lose games badly, so

820
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: it means they're going to be in every game. The

821
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: defense is good enough to keep them in any game

822
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: against any team. The question is whether the offense can

823
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: score enough points to win said game. Now they just

824
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: you know it is. They scored more points against US

825
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: State than any team has done all season, including the

826
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: number one team in the country, Indiana. So look, I

827
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: think that there's certainly Miami has the talent to win

828
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: two more games. If I think Miami's defense can slow

829
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: down Old Missus offense, the question is is Miami's offense

830
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: good enough to exploit some of the weaknesses on Old

831
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: Missus defense. And that's a fair question to ask. I

832
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to it, but I'm feeling pretty bullish.

833
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: I think I will fully admit I misread the psyche

834
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: of the Ole miss players. I did think with the

835
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: portal opening now and that that game against Georgia was

836
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: going to be problematic. Now I think they're still going

837
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: to have a distracted coaching staff, but the players seem

838
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: to be in some ways using this as fuel, using

839
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: this as energy. So there's a part of me worried

840
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: that Miami is goodded is just simply another episode in

841
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: this sports movie that is known as the team that

842
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: loses its coach and wins the championship anyway, right, kind

843
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: of like the Michigan basketball team Steve Fisher. Back in

844
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, I think it was when the head

845
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: coach of Michigan's basketball team leaves before the start of

846
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: the NCAA tournament. I becau his name was Bill Freeder.

847
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: He went to Arizona State and Michigan was like, nope,

848
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: you get out of here. They appoint the interim coach,

849
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: Steve Fisher, and all he does is win the whole thing.

850
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 1: On that one, I think that was the Glen Rice

851
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: team if I'm not mistaken, but it was. That was

852
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: at the time a pretty impressive run, one of the

853
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: all timers at that one, And this feels very similar

854
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: to that. So there's a part of me worried are

855
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 1: we just a speed bump on the way to Old

856
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: Miss documentary history here? Then again, if you're a documentarian,

857
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: which story is better the rise of Indiana football or

858
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: the resilience of Old Miss after Lane Kiffen leaves them

859
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: at the altar? Right? Like, this a pretty good sports

860
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 1: movie in either direction that you choose to go. Miami

861
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: and Oregon in comparison, are just very conventional narratives. Although

862
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: Miami versus Oregon is a fun little Mario Crysto bo Bowl,

863
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: which would be fun. But that gets me to a

864
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 1: few perception things that I want to get off the bat.

865
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: First of all, I give Shannon Dawson, that Miami play caller,

866
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 1: a lot of grief. This was the best game plan

867
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: I have ever seen him put together. He answered, everything

868
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: that I was upset about in the last game. You

869
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 1: don't seem like a game plan for the defense you're facing.

870
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: Look like we game plan for the defense we were facing.

871
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: It feels like you didn't trust Carson Beck to make decisions.

872
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: He trusted Carson Beck to make decisions. By the way,

873
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: Carson Beck, he wears number eleven for Miami fans. It's

874
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: the last guy to wear number eleven and do some

875
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: incredible things with that jersey number. Was Ken Dorsey, the

876
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 1: quarterback for the greatest college football team of all time,

877
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: the two thousand and one Miami Hurricanes, and the quarterback

878
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: who should not have been in the last in the

879
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: last play of the game in that Ohio State game,

880
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: he had been knocked out. Today's concussion protocol never would

881
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: have let him back in, and Miami's backup quarterback probably

882
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: should have been allowed to finish that game. And I

883
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: still wonder to this day. I think Dorsey was still rattled.

884
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: He shouldn't have been brought back in. But I'm still nitpicking, right,

885
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: never mind the bad call. We tie that game. We

886
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: should We were right there at the one yard line,

887
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: we had two shots at it, But he was still

888
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: he wasn't fully in that game on that front. But

889
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: my point I'm back is Beck reminds me of all

890
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: the good traits of cars of Ken Dorsey. Look, you're

891
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: not ever saying I never said nobody, no Miami fan

892
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: thought Ken Dorsey was going to be an NFL starting quarterback.

893
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 1: You knew that. And yet he was the best quarterback

894
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: Miami could have had guiding that team. He was a

895
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: point guard quarterback. He knew how to get the ball

896
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: in the hands of the people that needed to have

897
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: it and what to do in the moment. And that's

898
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: what it feels like Carson Beck has done. You know,

899
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: There's all this and this gets into sort of a

900
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: larger New Year's resolution that I think we all need

901
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: to have, which is be careful of Internet perception. Painting

902
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: a picture of somebody that you don't know anything about.

903
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: There's this internet perception, right. I'll tell you a classic

904
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: case of where this came in over the weekend. It's

905
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: a great story in The Athletic about the new managing

906
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: one of the late Jim Mercy's three daughters are collectively

907
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: running the team, but one daughter is the managing partner.

908
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: She's sort of the one that sits at the owner's meetings,

909
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: and the Athletic did a whole profile of her. You know,

910
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: I had first sort of noticed her when the Internet

911
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: exploded with why is the owner on the sideline with

912
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: a clipboard and a headset? And then I learned reading

913
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: that article that she's been doing this for years. Just

914
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: now people are noticing because now she's the general managing

915
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: general partner of the team, not just her dad's just

916
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: the daughter the owner. And after reading the piece, I thought, well,

917
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: she's a terrific owner. She's exactly what an owner should

918
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: be doing, which is to understand everything that goes in

919
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: putting a team together so that you can help make

920
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: good decisions. Anyway, the Internet perception of her was, you know,

921
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: somehow right, the painting the picture of what she think?

922
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: Who does she think she is being on the sideline

923
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: type of thing. After reading the article, You're like, this

924
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: is totally opposite of the perception being painted. This is

925
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: happening a lot. You know, I look at how quickly

926
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: the perception of Maroow Crystobaul is indebted. You know, he's

927
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: had a couple of high profile questionable calls on when

928
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: it comes to sort of clock management right. That Georgia

929
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: Tech game for Miami fans is infamous. There's a couple

930
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: of games that Oregon fans will remind you of when

931
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: he was coach of Oregon. But you know what we

932
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: forget why is in he Why is there's a reason

933
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: he's at these major programs. He does know what he's doing. Okay,

934
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: he made a couple of mistakes in moments where everybody's watching,

935
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: and it can sort of create a perception. But guess

936
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: what he also is doing is building a program. He

937
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: does lean into his strength, which is identifying offensive line talent,

938
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: and he's built the program and the image that he

939
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: said he was going to do. Is he a little

940
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: small c conservative when it comes to on the offensive

941
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: side of the ball, for my tasted times, it is.

942
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: But is it working well? Results, scoreboard, record, point out,

943
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: all all of them. And if he ends up, you

944
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: know he's already this idea that he can't win a

945
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: big game. Well, does winning in the College Football Playoff

946
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: at Kyle Field qualifies a big game? Does winning in

947
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: the Cotton Bowl against the number two ranked team in

948
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: the country considered a big game? And now if he

949
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: loses to Ole Miss as a favorite. Are we going

950
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: to say, Wow, Miami's terrible as a favorite, They're only

951
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: good as an underdog. Well, that might be a you know,

952
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: they're a small part of me nervous that Miami's the favorite. Now,

953
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: when I liked being in this underdog role where we

954
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: were the ace. The the sort of anti acc bias

955
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: of every of betters and of the punditry on ESPN

956
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 1: was we had all kicked in, you know now that

957
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: we kicked the you know, because the win over Ohio

958
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: State wasn't a fluke, right. We beat them up, We

959
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: out physicaled them, and they thought they were going to

960
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: out physical everybody else and they couldn't. Let's see what

961
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: happens when we're matched up against you know, another SEC team.

962
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: We'll see and we'll see if we can get past

963
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: that and we and we end up against either Oregon

964
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: or Indiana. But by the way, I uh, here's a

965
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: question about the Indiana Alabama game. Indiana looked like Alabama,

966
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: and Alabama looked like you know, Alabama reminded me of

967
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: Miami two thousand and five. So Miami was still considered

968
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, it only been a couple of years removed

969
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: from the National Title Game. They'd sort of only had

970
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: one loss away from being in the three title game,

971
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: and so there was just you know, they were still

972
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 1: one of the powers, and we ended up facing off

973
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: and in one of these disappointment matchups with LSU and

974
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: the Peach Bowl and LSU boat raced US forty two

975
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: to three. Players started in fighting amongst themselves. It was

976
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: just a disaster. I think at that point Coker fired

977
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: all of his assistants. Because Coker wasn't gonna get fired

978
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: right away. He was being given, you know, some grace

979
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: since he led the team to back to back championship games.

980
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: But it was the beginning of the end. I fear

981
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: this for Calin de bore with what happened. It wasn't

982
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: that they lost to Indiana, it's how they lost. They

983
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: just didn't look like they physically belonged on the field,

984
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: and how did just like that's what happened when Miami.

985
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't that Miami lost, ale issue was how they lost.

986
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: And let's just say that in two years of Kurt

987
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: Signetti as the next head coach of the University of Alabama,

988
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: I won't be surprised and I do not accept the

989
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: premise that Signetti wouldn't take the job. But what I

990
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: saw the Knicks. If you're looking for a Nick Saban

991
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: like frankly, I gotta give crystaball credit. He looks. I mean,

992
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 1: Miami didn't have a single accepted penalty. That's how that's

993
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: Nick Saban esque. That was never Miami's reputation over the years.

994
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: Now I got handed to those SEC officials. They were

995
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: SEC officials doing the Miami Ohio state game. Boy did

996
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: they let everybody play. There were a couple of hits

997
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: that I swear Miami would have been flagged down if

998
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: they were a CC officials. It just had been a given,

999
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: and Miami doesn't get flagged. They sort of quote let

1000
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: him play. And if there was a baton passing moment,

1001
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: there's this video if you haven't seen it, that's going

1002
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: around Carnel Tait. It basically short arms a throw from

1003
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: saying because he was about to get hit, and it

1004
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: looked like he was afraid to get hit. And that

1005
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:35,919
Speaker 1: was I remember when they showed the replay. I saw

1006
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: it and I even remarked in the room, huh, boy,

1007
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: look at how afraid they are of getting Hiti. Miami

1008
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: is certainly making them uncomfortable looking back. Boy, that's the

1009
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: that feels like the symbolic moment that the baton was

1010
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: passed back to Miami and here they come. Because I

1011
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 1: promise you this, this physicality that Miami's bringing back isn't

1012
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: a one year phenomenon. It's it's I think, going to

1013
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: be the DNA. It's certainly Mario Cristobal's DNA. So the

1014
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: question I have is will we will ask will the

1015
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: big time athletes still want to play in a small

1016
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: c conservative offense. That's the only concern I might have.

1017
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: But this day and age, winning Trump's everything, and if

1018
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: we're winning, people want to be a part of a

1019
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: winning culture. But anyway, just be careful of perceptions. Right,

1020
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: we sit here and we allow the Internet to fuel

1021
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: perceptions of certain individuals, certain people, certain resumes when and

1022
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: then when the when it doesn't, when when they don't

1023
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: play to the internet type, we think, oh, well, there

1024
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: must be something wrong with the other team. When you

1025
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: know it is we probably were over zealous in the

1026
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: characters in the caricature that was being created. Uh. I've

1027
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: participated in that over zealousness at times, and I've gotten

1028
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: because we as a fanatic fan short for fanatic. I've

1029
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: certainly had my strong opinions about how certain things went

1030
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: with Miami, but let's just say this is this is

1031
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 1: always what I expected, and this is what the Miami

1032
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: fan base is about, which is we expect to be

1033
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: contenders for national titles hard stop. Nothing else matters, and

1034
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: you can say, well, go win an ACC title. We've

1035
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: never cared about conference titles because we're still in I

1036
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: still view us as an independent who's been a mercenary

1037
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: for these conferences. We joined a conference because of the

1038
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: other sports. We never wanted to join conferences, but we

1039
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: did it out of scheduling purposes. It isn't a matter.

1040
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: It's what conference gives Miami the best shot at competing

1041
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 1: for a national title and or what system works, and

1042
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: so ultimately, if Miami is operating on the level that

1043
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: they're operating on this year for the foreseeable future, you know,

1044
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: as long as we're contending and win one out of

1045
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 1: every three or four, you're going to have a satisfied

1046
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: fan base. I'd like to think we won't lose it

1047
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: the way we're already seeing our friends at Ohio State

1048
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: lose it over Ryan Day I mean, what more does

1049
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 1: he have to do to keep his seat from warming

1050
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: up too much in the next year if he somehow

1051
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: loses another game or two before getting back to a

1052
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: title game. But look, we'll see, I am it is tough.

1053
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me that I heard Rees Davis

1054
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: say this playoff rematches that take place in the playoffs

1055
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: from the regular season. The only time where the same

1056
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:50,479
Speaker 1: team won twice was a miss over tu Lane this year,

1057
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: so every other rematch has gone the other way. Not

1058
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: the best omen And I do worry Indiana is getting

1059
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: so many flowers, excuse me, roses thrown their way right now?

1060
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: Is this just like Miami's getting a bunch of stuff

1061
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: thrown their way. I'm nervous about Miami being a favorite.

1062
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: If I were an Indiana fan, I'd be nervous about

1063
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: suddenly Indiana being such a heavy favorite. So we'll see.

1064
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: It's going to be. It's a fun final four. And

1065
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: how about the fact that all four cultural centers of

1066
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: America are represented. Miami is very much an East coast

1067
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: Northeast five school, oh Miss as deep south as you

1068
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: get Indiana, as midwest as you can get in Oregon,

1069
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: the west coast This is what makes the college foo

1070
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: ball so great, right, and the fact that the final

1071
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: four worked out this way despite the attempts of the

1072
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: conference conference commissioners to screw this up. Don't screw this up, guys.

1073
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: If we can produce a system, ultimately the conferences should

1074
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: be secondary. If this is going to be what our

1075
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: system is, and we should go from there, and we

1076
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: can improve scheduling and all of these things, but this

1077
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: result should ultimately be what we get every time, which

1078
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: is some geographic diversity and sort of spreading the wealth

1079
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. And that's the dirty little secret about Nil. Right,

1080
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 1: Pre Nil, we only had a lot of Alabama, a

1081
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 1: lot of Clemson, a little bit of Georgia, and not

1082
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 1: much else. Right, what has Nil done? Look, there's still

1083
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: the haves and the have nots, but there's now more

1084
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 1: halves than we've ever had before. And isn't that. People

1085
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: in Bloomington, Indiana are pretty excited about this. People in Eugene,

1086
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: Oregon are pretty excited about this. People in Oxford, Mississippi

1087
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: are pretty excited about this. And yes, those of us

1088
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: in Miami and Coral Gables are extraordinary excited about this.

1089
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,679
Speaker 1: So anyway, enjoy the next two games