WEBVTT - Final Stages of the Trump Impeachment Trial 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.760 This is Bloomberg Law, with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.920 President Donald Trump's impeachment trial heads toward an end on Wednesday, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.280 with Senators all but certain to acquit him on charges 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.960 of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress after narrowly 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:20.960 rejecting Democratic demands for witnesses. Before a vote on four amendments. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.760 On Friday, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer sought to clear up 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.920 one uncertainty that's hung over the trial, whether Chief Justice 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.800 John Roberts, the trial's presiding officer, would cast a vote 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.240 to break a tie. Here's Robert's response. If the members 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.000 of this body, elected by the people and accountable to them, 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.320 divide equally on a motion, the normal rule is that 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.040 the motion fails. I think it would be inappropriate for me, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.879 an unelected official from a different branch of government, to 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.840 assert the power to change that result so that the 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.040 motion would succeed. My guest is Frank Bowman, professor with 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.480 the University of Zuri and an expert on impeachment. His 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.959 latest book is High Crimes and Misdemeanors, A History of 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.360 Impeachment for the Age of Trump. The Chief Justice said 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.360 it would be inappropriate for him to break any tie 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.880 votes in a sent impeachment trial. What's your take on 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.240 his refusal to do that. I understand it from a perspective, 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.600 I mean, one, he does not want to get himself 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.200 as sort of the representative of the Supreme Court in 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:32.680 the middle of this ugly partisan fight um and breaking 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.640 a tie on particularly on these issues would certainly be 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.360 perceived as doing so. Equally important is the sort of 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.440 pragmatic calculation here. He's going to want to, I think, 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:48.800 husband his moral authority or the institutional authority for for 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.680 occasions when it might matter, and you know, to break 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.840 a tie on a question of say, witnesses in this case, 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.320 if that had come up. I mean, Roberts is a 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.840 smart guy. He can count. He knows that there's no 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.800 way that President Trump is ever going to be removed, 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.840 he recognizes, frankly, having listened to all the evidence that 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.320 the case against Trump is overwhelming on the facts already, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:16.000 nobody except Trump's most ardent partisans believes otherwise. In fact, 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.240 one of the things you heard at the end from 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.400 a number of sort of sheepish Republican senators was, in effect, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.600 oh well, okay, we don't need to hear more evidence, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.920 because actually the case has already proven an additional evidence 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:29.560 isn't going to prove it anymore, and which is of 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.079 course the truth, right, I mean, that's the state of 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.960 the evidence. So back to Roberts. Roberts knows that he 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.800 knows the evidence is powerful against the president. Then he 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.120 knows that additional evidence, whether it's Bolton or anything else, 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.440 is not going to change the political calculus. You're not 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.400 going to get twenty Republican senators to vote the guy out. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.679 And so that being so, for what purpose would he 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:58.000 expend his moral and institutional capital? One can imagine a 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:03.680 circumstance where h Justice believe that the president in the 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.760 office was deeply dangerous to the country, and I saw 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.080 in front of him a trial where the outcome remained 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.200 in doubt and hinged perhaps on the production of some 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.480 additional evidence. And you can imagine therefore a Chief Justice 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.920 who would be willing to step in and and make 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.840 judgments about the propriety of introducing that additional events. But 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.640 Roberts is looking out at a landscape where he knows 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:32.919 the result is completely baked in. Why should he expend 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.680 the courts capital his personal capital in a feudal gesture 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.040 through where I land on that. I just also want 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.080 to go through some of the Republican senators some of 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.840 their excuses. Some people might call it reasoning, other people 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:52.760 might call it for not voting for witnesses. Senator Marco Rubio, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.280 Republican from Florida, said, just because actions meet a standard 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.320 of impeachment does not mean it is in the best 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.240 interest of the country to remove a president from office. 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.240 If actions meet a standard of impeachment, should a president 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.840 then be impeached and convicted? Well, I mean this this 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.680 raises a tricky point. I mean it's sort of an 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:20.440 echo of the Clinton affair. In the end, Democrats rationale 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.880 for quitting Clinton. Indeed, the rationality I think some Republicans 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.680 who voted for acquittal was it it Clinton had done 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.800 bad things, he'd committed indeed one or more felonies, but 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.440 that the gravity of what he had done didn't require 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.600 his removal. Indeed, the you know, the best interests of 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.560 the country suggests that he shouldn't be removed. I think 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.680 that Rubio is making a somewhat inelegant version of the 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.680 same argument now, and really this is just sort of 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:56.360 a terminological quibble. I mean, I would say, as somebody 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.520 who spends time thinking about impeachment, that if you, as 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:05.240 a senator, conclude that the president has committed an impeachable offense, 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:12.280 that necessarily requires that you vote to impeach and remove him. 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:17.320 But you know, you can also recognize that the whole 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.440 notion of what's at least a convictable offense, it's not 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.120 only about the president's conduct, but it's also about the 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.839 welfare of the country. And I think it's entirely within 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.800 the sentis purview to conclude that even though a president 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.000 has done improper things, bad things on a single occasion, 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.279 that the gravity of those bad things, when weighed against 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.560 the other good things he's doing for the country, pushes 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.480 in the direction of a quittal. That's why this is 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.080 a political process. That's why, in large measure, the Framers 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.920 gave the decision to the political branches. And I disagree 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.719 with you Senator Rubio's assessment here. I think not only 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.040 did the president do it, but the kinds of things 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.840 he did here are of such gravity that it's hard 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.719 to see how you can honestly conclude that a he 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.960 did it and be it's not serious enough to remove him. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.800 But that's at least closer to intellectual honesty than, you know, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:17.200 than the president's lawyers or you know, the vast majority 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.520 of the commentators on Fox News and frankly a number 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.320 of the other Senators who were walking around saying, well, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:27.200 he didn't actually do anything wrong, that's rubbish. Of course 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.479 he did. I mean, he did wrong. It was plainly proven. 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.560 And the question really is does that warrant removal or not? 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.679 And you know, I think it does. I think any 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.640 senator with you know, any interest in the Constitution, the 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:48.039 preservation of frankly, the checks and balances, any interest in, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.840 you know, ensuring that the presidents he doesn't essentially become 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:58.160 a kingship, ought to vote to convict and remove this president. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.839 But I mean, Rubio is at least close sertain intellectual 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.760 honesty than some of his his colleagues. One thing that 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:08.400 has remained clear throughout this is that there won't be 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:14.360 the votes to convict President Trump. So what implications does 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:19.720 that have for future impeachments or for future attempts to 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.320 reign in a president That I think very much depends 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.560 on a number of things, and one of them is 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.440 the outcoming outcome of the election. Um remember, of course, 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:39.680 that the Framers basically devised two mechanisms for removal of 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:44.760 a president who is misbehaving or is underperforming, and one 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.200 of them is impeachment, of course, but the other's elections. 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.880 They originally thought about not having impeachments at all because 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.400 they thought elect Some of them thought elections would be enough, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.840 but of course they decided elections might not be enough. 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.480 But they understood that there also was a relationship between 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:07.119 the two. And if Trump escapes conviction in this case, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:13.160 given all the evidence, frankly, given the incredible efforts on 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.239 the part of the members of his party to conceal 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.520 the full extent of it, and then manages to win 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:25.120 the election anyway, that I think is profoundly troublesome, to 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:29.360 the mildest word I can come up with, because not 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.280 only in the short term will he, I think, feel 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.960 more or less unbound to completely ignore Congress altogether. But 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.000 it creates a precedent going forward that we should all 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:44.319 be very very wary of. If, on the other hand, um, 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.360 you know, the President and his party go down to 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.800 a resounding defeat, then the impeachment will be viewed differently. 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:57.760 Eachment will be viewed as one mechanism by which wrongdoing 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.800 by the president is exposed uh and by which, even 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:08.000 if his party protects him, the public has an opportunity 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.560 to find out what wrong has been done and to 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:16.640 respond electorally. Um. I I think we should all be 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:22.640 very very afraid here. Unless one is already bound heart 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:27.680 and soul to Donald Trump. The consequences of this acquittal 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:33.280 followed by re election are very frightening. Indeed, when we 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.800 look at the three times that presidents have been impeached, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.240 does it show that the Framers set the bar too 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.440 high to require a two thirds vote in the Senate? 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.400 You know? In retrospect, I kind of think so. I 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.319 think we ought to. I think we ought to. Uh. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.120 I think we ought to be able to remove presidents 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.560 a little more easily. Maybe not on a you know, 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:59.880 on a straight up majority but vote, but certainly you 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.400 the modern era presidents could use a good deal more accountability, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.160 of a good deal more personal and institutional humility. And 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:13.000 one of the problems that with this whole imperial presidency 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.880 that we've created over the last century or so is 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.000 that not only have we given presidents this fast almost 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.120 inconceivable personal power. But we've come to think of them 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.959 as being you know, once we elect them, is somehow 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:32.440 are there being indispensable, almost godlike, Um, that they somehow 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:37.559 they're embody the executive branch in some almost mystical sense, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.839 and that to remove them is you know, a cataclysmic calamity. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:47.680 It's not right, among other things. Um, you know, we now, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.720 you know, elect people on a ticket one of the people. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.800 Many people don't realize that when the Framers actually created impeachment, 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.800 the original mechanism for choosing president vice president was that 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.880 the presidency went to the person who had the most 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.360 electoral votes, and the vice presidency went to the person 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.800 who at the second most, which led in the third 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.600 election to having you know, John Adams be president and 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:16.720 his biggest adversary, Thomas Jefferson, be vice president, to predictable results. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.840 And if we now had that rule, the vice president 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.280 obi Hillary Clinton. Obviously it didn't work very well, so 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.000 they changed it early on the end of the constitution 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.240 so that presidents and vice presidents were run together. But 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:36.280 that being so, all all impeachment means is that we 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.520 lose the individual at the top of the presidential ticket. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.400 And we get the person whom the president chose um 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.840 to be his second in command or her second in command, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.120 which is hardly a cataclysm, and we really ought to 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:57.120 be much more ready to dispense with the services of 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:01.360 any particular person. Really, the the world does not end 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:03.960 if we do that, and the democracy would undoubtedly be 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.080 healthier if we had something a little closer to a 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.920 parliamentary system, not exactly what they have where they can 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.559 get rid of the prime ministers, something with a vote 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.880 or no confidence in Parliament. Something a little closer to 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.720 that wouldn't be a bad idea, But then let's be realistic. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.440 To fix to fix that problem would require an amendment 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:27.200 of the Constitution, and that's, you know, pretty inconceivable. On Sunday, 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.640 Adam Schiff, the Leader of the House Managers, said about 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.520 the Bolton information, whether in testimony for before the House, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.280 in Bolton's book or in another form, the truth will 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.720 come out. But should the House of Representatives now be 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:48.960 calling Bolton to testify? You know, I'm I'm kind of 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.160 of two minds on that. I think it, I think 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.360 it's useful, I think the I think it will be 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:59.000 useful for the House to continue to UM employ its 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:05.760 oversight power two explore misbehavior by the president and the administration. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.160 That's what they're there for, in part I mean is 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:12.400 to is to be check and on on the executive 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:17.200 and a vigilant overseer of what goes on there. So 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:18.880 I think they should do that. On the other hand, 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:24.239 what I think Democrats should certainly avoid doing is obsessing 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.160 over what is now or will be on Wednesday, you know, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:33.080 a lost battle. UM. If all of this impeachment business 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.200 is to mean anything from the point of view, not 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.439 just of Democrats, but from the point of view of 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.200 preserving you know, constitutional government, Donald Trump has to be 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:47.040 defeated in November. That will be the event that would 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:52.000 validate all of this and would represent an affirmation that 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:57.880 the constitution can work in that presidents will not be king. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.600 I think if Democrats come obsessed with trying to relitigate 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.120 UM this this particular impeachment for month after month after 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.520 month into the summer, they are doing themselves in the 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:14.480 country a disservice. They've got to focus on other issues 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.839 that concerned the country or perhaps even other areas of 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.920 wrongdoing by Mr Trump. That's fine, but in my view, 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.760 they need to get to the business at hand, which is, 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.480 you know, choosing an appropriate presidential candidate, appropriate were running mate, 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.479 and focus on turning this man out of office through elections. 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.080 Thanks for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Professor Frank Bowman 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.320 of the University of Missouri School of Law. His book 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.520 is High Crimes and Misdemeanors, A History of Impeachment for 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.240 the Age of Trump. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.400 Law podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:55.160 on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:15:01.080 I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg, Drunk the t Lent 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:02.640 and Duck the Bill.