1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: Paul Mission Control decade. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: want you to know. Now, before everybody falls asleep and 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: once they hear the title of today's episode, we want 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: to assure you that this is not going to be 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: full of a bunch of dry, academic, unsexy language. We're 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: talking about something important. We're talking about something that is 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: often misreported, and we're talking about something that you know 15 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: can be a little misleading on the offset. So we thought, 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: at least I thought a good way to get into 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: this would be with a thought experiment. So imagine if 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: one day, uh, yours truly, me, your old Palt, Ben 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: and Josh Clark, friend of the show from Stuff You 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: Should Know, Imagine we are yet again beefing over some 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: weird trivia point that no one except for like people 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: like our cruise would care about, you know, and maybe 23 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: it's domestication or some some arcane little thing from a 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: brain stuff video and tensions arising. Well, first of all, Ben, 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: if it results in an academic rumble, I hope you 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: know that, Matt and I have your back to the 27 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: end because I've called you off channel and have said, hey, 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: things are getting you know that, uh, that crazy dictator 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: Josh Clark is is going wild. This injustice will not stand. 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: And you say, we've seen the public statements. Josh and 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: Ben are making their their's talking about how the other 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: guy's a jerk and a pill. But we think nobody 33 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: actually really wants an open conflict disagreements. Okay, a rumble 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: is maybe a bridge too far. So instead of coming 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: into the office and attempting to physically smack me around, 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: let's say Josh calls in some favors and suddenly no 37 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: one in Atlanta will sell me a K C D A. 38 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: In fact, no one will even allow is allowed to 39 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: sell me the ingredients to make a case ada. He 40 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: hasn't launched a missile at me, he hasn't physically harmed 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: me or any any of the folks. I roll with. 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: But he's hit me where it hurts. He's affected my 43 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: quality of life. This is a hopefully silly version of 44 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: a very serious and dangerous thing, a concept called a sanction. 45 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: So we have the hear of the facts here and yes, 46 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: here are the facts. But this whole thing is is 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: kind of it's kind of crazy, right, We've talked about 48 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: it before. You see the public statements of various politics 49 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: are dictators or presidents, and what they talk about in 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: an international sphere, it's way different from what they talk 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: about their domestic sphere when they want support. But one 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: of the big secrets is most stable nations actually do 53 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: not want continual, large scale hot wars. People don't want 54 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 1: a World War three, or they don't. They definitely don't 55 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: want to be seen as the kid on the playground 56 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: who throws the first rock, you know what I mean. 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 1: That's why it's always like we're defending ourselves. We set 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: all these drones and thousands of troops to this country 59 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: most Americans can't find on a map because we're defending ourselves, 60 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: or we're fighting for human rights. Whatever the thing is. 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: Everybody wants to be seen as the good guy. No 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: one wants to be thought of as the bad guy. Well, 63 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, one one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: In my mind, that's why a well executed false flag 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: is so handy. M. Delpha Tonkin. Yes, yes, you know 66 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: what the win right right right? You know it's it's 67 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: kind of a shame that well, it's not a shame. 68 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: The world's a better place because of this. But what 69 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: kind of world would it be if we could do 70 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: our own false flags? You know people have tried that before. Um, 71 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: what was it, Jesse Smillette most most infamously recently. Um, 72 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: that's the that's the actor who staged staged an assault 73 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: and his false flag was unsuccessful. He did get busted. Um. 74 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: But nations do want to make sure they can somehow 75 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: make their aims and their desires known, and ideally they 76 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: want as many other nations to agree with them, and 77 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: they like to posse up. But they also can't really 78 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: trust each other. That's the thing. Countries are not friends. 79 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: No matter what the people currently driving those things are saying. 80 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: The concept of friendship doesn makes sense at this level. 81 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: You can't really trust people, you can't trust institutions. So 82 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: if you make a previous agreement right, if it's something 83 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: where like Matt and Noel and Mission Control and Doc 84 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: and Scully and Ben are part of their we're part 85 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: of our own agreements, and we made the great you know, 86 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: case Ida Accords, even amongst each other. We have to 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: have a mechanism to enforce that agreement because otherwise, like 88 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: this is what you're talking about, I think no when 89 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: you say does something have teeth? Right, like we're talking 90 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: about this little off air um. Otherwise it could be 91 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: one of those non binding resolutions and people just ignore those. 92 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: You're not gonna send in troops. They're just gonna say, hey, 93 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: our understanding of that agreement was different, So fiddle d 94 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: d what you're gonna do? Bro, I mean, who decided 95 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: to call them that non binding agreements? It's like, inherently 96 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: not that scary. It's like, ah, maybe maybe we'll do it, 97 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: maybe we won't. See how you feel on the day. 98 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense, really, and it's just a public 99 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: facing release of of a group's opinion on something, right, 100 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: And it's just the first step. It's always the first step. 101 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: If sanctions occur, there's almost always some kind of resolution 102 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: that's put forward that's just like a hey, here's how 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: we feel about this. Just it's a little heads up there. 104 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: There could be something else coming. You have to have consequences, 105 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: You have to have some kind of if then equation 106 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: going on. And ideally you want to be able to 107 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: either incentivize countries towards doing something you want them to do, 108 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: even to the point of like pollution regulations, or you 109 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: want to de incentivize them from doing something else. Right, 110 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: So you don't want um. You don't want Libya or 111 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: North Korea or South Africa to pursue nuclear armament, so 112 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: you make these deals with them. And historically, I don't 113 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: want a ruffle too many roost here. But historically nations 114 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: know that if they do back down from pursuing nuclear weaponry, 115 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: things still aren't gonna work out very well. I mean, 116 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: there's a reason Gaddafi doesn't have a podcast. Now, you know, 117 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: that's somewhat of a cold way to say it, but 118 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: it's true. So you don't want war, but you want 119 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: to get your way. So here are here's where sanctions 120 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: come in. There are a couple of broad types and 121 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: they're all used to one degree or another, and there's 122 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: a lot of inequality in the world of sanctions, but 123 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: they're also conspiratorial because to be effective, they have to 124 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: have a group that conspires. Not just public entities, by 125 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: the way, not just governments, but banks play a huge 126 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: role in this. Uh. They get together and they conspire 127 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: to change the actions of another nation or in some 128 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: cases other groups of nations, or in some cases even 129 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: v I P. Very high powered individuals. If you are 130 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: listening in this podcast, the odds are and no offense 131 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: to anyone. The odds are you're you're probably not a 132 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: big enough deal to have the U N. Say, like 133 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: Paul mission control has to be stopped. He can no 134 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: longer control the dog toy market or something like that. 135 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: You know we're talking, Yeah, we're talking like Putin's at 136 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: that level. Um and and you know at that point too. 137 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: We'll get to this question a second. You have to 138 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: ask yourself, given how controversial the US is, given how 139 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: controversial past precedents and politicians here have been seeing you know, 140 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: by people abroad, like how controversial their actions are, how 141 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: come don't have a bunch of sanctions. We'll tell you, 142 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: but first we have to we have to talk about 143 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: the lay of the land. So sanction in a country 144 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: that's what most people have heard about. We're mad that 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: Cuba is communist. Nobody sell them anything. We're not going 146 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: to sell them any thing. But if you hear this, 147 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: you can't either just because that's how we wanted to be, 148 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: or Syria or a rod Yeah, and that in the 149 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: case with human the Soviet Union, here's that and goes, oh, 150 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: will gladly trade things with you? Exactly. That's part of 151 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: the problem here. And then their list based sanctions, like 152 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: we talked about the HSBC drug cartel conspiracy and how 153 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: that was a controversy because they were knowingly, knowingly washing 154 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: dirty money for organized crime. Well, they could have fallen 155 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: under sanctions for that because if if the U EU, 156 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: the US or the u N had said we're issuing 157 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: a list based sanction, you cannot do business with known 158 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: drug cartels or terrorists or you know, supervillains like Carlos 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: the Jackal or whatever. I just keep saying that name 160 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: because it's so cool. Those are a real thing, um 161 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: And essentially, like if you look at it now, there's 162 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: a way to target any group. You can move the 163 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: lens however you wish. Vast majority of people alive aren't 164 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: going to get specifically targeted by sanctions. But the scary 165 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: part is you might be affected by them even if 166 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: you do not live in the country that has those 167 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: sanctions imposed on them. And when we're hearing this thrown around, 168 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, obviously sanction has a couple of different meanings, 169 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: right Like, um, let's say Matt walks in the office 170 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: one day and Nolan I are clearly heisting the little 171 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: cooler where we keep all the fancy sodas and whatnot, 172 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and then you say, what what is what is wrong 173 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: with you? Guys? You're supposed to be company men. And 174 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: then we tell you, oh, our actions are sanctioned. The 175 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: network said it was okay, that's a different kind of sanction, right, 176 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: These sodas are for everyone, so we're free. We are 177 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: liberate eating these sodas. We got a flag and everything. 178 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: You often hear like the hyphenite of that, like government 179 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: sanctioned whatever terrorism even right like you you heard sometimes 180 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: that term is used as like a ding on the government, 181 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: where maybe it's not officially sanctioned, but you can call 182 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: some negative behavior something sanctioned, government sanctioned to imply that 183 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: there was approval given that this was like there was 184 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: co signed by the highest level of authority, government sanctioned 185 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: burning of rice patties, yeah, or books. And so when 186 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: you hear this term thrown around, what you're gonna hear 187 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: what they're referring to. Really the full name is like 188 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: international sanctions. That's the state level stuff. Um. Even though 189 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people in the world who 190 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: wish that they could impose their own sanctions, the best 191 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: you can do in in you know, your life as 192 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: a private individual is going to be attempt to uh 193 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: create a boycott, right and get a bunch of other 194 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: people to agree with you and say, hey, we're not 195 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: gonna we're not gonna support tours in Miami, Florida because 196 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: it's something Miami did. And if you get enough people 197 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: to agree with you, then that's kind of like a sanction, 198 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: but it's way less powerful. I think we should talk 199 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: about like the different categories of what we're looking at here, 200 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: because they're not all created equally. Some are more dangerous 201 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: than others, but they all have some punch. One of them, especially, 202 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: is very I think topical now and it's surprisingly effective, 203 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: but not in a way that says impressive things about humanity. Well, 204 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: let's start off with yie old financial sanction or an 205 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: economic sanction. This is probably the most common one you've 206 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: heard about, certainly recently over the past ten twenty years. UM. 207 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: It's the concept we are agreeing to not sell this country, 208 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: slash this ruler anything and or or very specific things 209 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: and or we're not going to buy any goods of 210 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: a specific type from this country, or you're not allowed 211 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: to basically, and then again, like in the case of Iran, 212 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: UH there's a sanction that says no one can buy 213 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: iron or steel from Iran. And then you know, private 214 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: companies out of another country like China, say, will gladly 215 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: take that steel at a very low price because we're 216 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the only buyers. Yeah, exactly. And if you take it 217 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: back to the cheese example, the case Ada example that 218 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: we set up earlier, it would be the concept of 219 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: not only can no one sell let's say Ben case Adas, 220 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: no one can even sell him cheese, No one can 221 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: sell him pork, I don't know, beef, what do you 222 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: put in your case ad has been well at this point, 223 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: damn near or anything I could get my hands on. 224 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: It's terrible, Like no tortillas, no tortillas from UH this 225 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: will not stand. I'm radicalized. No, you're right, And this 226 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: this sounds like a silly example again, but consider it 227 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: in the realm of nuclear research, because so much nuclear 228 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: equipment is dual use, meaning the same things they can 229 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: build peaceful nuclear power plants can be used to build 230 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. So banning a case a DA purchases saying 231 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: nobody can sell international intercontinental ballistic missiles i c b 232 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: M S to ORAN that would be one example. But 233 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: going further and saying you know, you can't buy the ingredients. 234 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: You can't buy the cheese and the tortillas and and 235 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: the you know, the mushrooms, what have you? Uh, that 236 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: would be that's like a wonder one comparison would say, 237 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: not only can you not buy missiles, which you can't 238 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,359 Speaker 1: buy the stuff that would be used to assemble missiles, 239 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: you can't buy the um, you can't buy the plutonium 240 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: that could be refined or the uranium that could be refined. 241 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: You can't buy the center few which is and we 242 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: don't believe anything you're saying about peaceful nuclear power, So 243 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: that's all that's gonna happen. Typically, these sanctions mainly for 244 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: humanitarian and pr purposes. They'll have some exemptions and they'll 245 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: say like, okay, you can't trade anything except necessities for 246 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: ordinary people, So you can buy food or medicine right 247 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: from international um international producers of those things stuff like insulin, right. 248 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: I mean, this is why they can really hurt. You know, 249 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: we're talking a little bit about this off air, and 250 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: I was sort of saying, how, like, you know, a blockade, 251 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: you know, for example, of goods and services for one 252 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: country to another, isn't the same as like an invasion. Uh, 253 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: it's not a hot war. It's like them us staying 254 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: on our turf and to say no, you can't come 255 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: through or you can't get stuff from us. But those 256 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: things matter if you're like the number one producer of 257 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: said good and results in people may be getting sick 258 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: or not getting the things they need for basic survival, 259 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: and they're they're enforced by the way we should. We 260 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: should also say this. One of the things that makes 261 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: them binding is violation of sanctions is considered a crime, 262 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter if everybody agrees to the sanction. 263 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: The US does a lot of what are called unilateral sanctions, 264 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: which is just Uncle Sam saying I don't like him 265 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: you shouldn't like him either, And if you are a 266 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: business that's based in this country, then it's illegal for 267 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: you to mess with them, even if that was the 268 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: entirety of your business. Before we will put you under 269 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: the jail and will put you in the poorhouse. We 270 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: don't care. And they usually because the global West controls 271 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: the banking system, they're the vast majority of what we 272 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: call the you know, the anatomy of the banking system 273 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: across the world, they can they can really really make 274 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: an impact there, and these things can be tremendously damaging. 275 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: Usually before you get you like a big um catastrophic 276 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: economic sanction, you've got a diplomatic sanction. And the best 277 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: way to explain a diplomatic sanction is, we're mad at you. 278 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: We're closing down were clubhouse. We're not staying at the 279 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: slumber party. We're going back to moms. So that's like 280 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: we're closing the embassy. We're not taking your calls, we're 281 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: not going to meetings with you until you apologize. And 282 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: because this is stuff they don't want you to know, 283 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: we're pretty open about this. Where we're talking about diplomacy, 284 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: we're also talking about spies. We're also talking about assets 285 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: and tradecraft in the intelligence community, because not every I 286 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: T director or not every I T grunt at your 287 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: local embassy is necessarily actually an I T guy. Yeah, yeah, Well, 288 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: and the United States has a specific department that we're 289 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: gonna get into when we talk about the history here 290 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: within the Department of Treasury called the o f a 291 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: C or the oh FAK, the Office of Foreign Assets Control, 292 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: and a major part of their mission is to gather 293 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: intelligence on countries and individuals who have sanctions sanctions placed 294 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: against them. Exactly. They're the they're the enforcers of this, 295 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: and you're not. You won't hear a ton about them 296 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: when you hear sanctions mentioned on say you're CNN or whatever, 297 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: you're whatever, your news channel of choices. They don't get 298 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: talked a lot about. They're not super sexy, but they're 299 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: not super secret, you know, they're they're just the people 300 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: who have to enforce the at times grandiose statements and 301 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: declarations of politicians, whether they are made in good faith 302 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: or bad faith. Uh. There are also military sanctions. Wait, 303 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: you might be saying, how is a military sanction not 304 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: a war? You don't have to declare war to have 305 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: a military sanction that's a targeted strike, right, That's like 306 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: a U. A V. Taking out a factory. Of factories 307 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: are a great example of this, attacking manufacturing infrastructure. You 308 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,239 Speaker 1: will just have country A saying you know you're up 309 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: to something that that factory, so we took it off 310 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: the table. Now you apologize for making us do that 311 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: to you. That's kind of how it goes, and it 312 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: should be no surprise. Yeah it does. It's tough to 313 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: figure out. Well, we'll talk about whether whether that situation 314 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: would be considered successful later. But so we've got military, diplomatic, economic. 315 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: Here's the one that surprises me. It's a real thing. 316 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: Sports sanctions. You have probably heard stories about this where 317 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: like person from insert country here is not allowed to 318 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: play at the Olympics because their country got in trouble 319 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: and has nothing to do with you know, chess or 320 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: volleyball or what have you. Uh, this is a soft 321 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: power push. You're not allowing and giving countries athletes, teams, 322 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: or individuals to compete internationally. And it sounds kind of 323 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: absurd that this would matter, But this one does actually 324 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: work because people are by in large the same across 325 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: the planet. They hate it when their favorite sports teams 326 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: don't get a chance to win something. So like, if 327 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: the economic pressure is not, um, pushing a dictator out 328 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: of a place of power, then not letting the national 329 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: soccer team compete in the Olympics or the god forbid, 330 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: the World Cup, that might push the needle. People might say, Okay, 331 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: I was all right with a lot of injustices, but 332 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: you touched the football, your excellency, and that's that's a 333 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: that's a line too far that can actually work. Why 334 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: does that work? Yeah? Well, um, I don't know. It's 335 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: a hit to pride. I think in nationalism. Uh you 336 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: think back to sat not. I guess they were sanctions 337 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: put on Russia during the Olympics, but it wasn't the 338 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: exactly the kind we're discussing here, but very similar because 339 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: of the the anti doping movement and some of the mechanisms. 340 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: They're both within the Russian Federation and the Olympics committee. 341 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: Um where I can't remember fully you guys, but I 342 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: remember in the last Summer Olympics, or maybe it was 343 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: two Olympics ago. Um, many Russian athletes were not allowed 344 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: to compete, and if they were allowed to compete, they 345 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: weren't allowed to like have a medal ceremony if they won. 346 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: Something very similar happened that in the Winter Olympics. It 347 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: just happened in the Winter Olympics. Oh man, I'm blanking 348 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: on it. There was a skater who was he was 349 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,239 Speaker 1: decided she was allowed to compete, but if she won 350 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: a medal, there would be no official ceremony. Bomber. I mean, 351 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: that's kind of the thing that ever, you know, young 352 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: Olympian dreams of, is like standing on that podium getting 353 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: handed that that medal. That skater's name, if you look 354 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: it up, is Camilla Veliva v A l I E 355 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: V A M. It's it's a soft power thing. Soft 356 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: power is weird and and it works. Don't don't let 357 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: the name soft fool It is measurements and optics thing. 358 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: It's about humiliation kind of in a way, and it's 359 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: it's a war perception to also a lot of times 360 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: the proposed ideas for sanctions are not the entire story. 361 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: Let's be very clear about that. Like if you look 362 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: at if you look at some especially during the Cold War, 363 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: if you look at some of these things, what they're 364 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: what they're proposing and the full extent of their calculus 365 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: are often not announced together. You have to do digging 366 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: to figure out what's happening. The new kid on the 367 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: block here is environmental sanctions, the ideas you can put 368 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: up trade barriers and restrictions to stop poaching, to stop pollution, 369 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: so on. Honestly, the jury is still out on whether 370 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: this works, but the logics they're hitting someone in the 371 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: wallet has definitely made a difference in the past. You 372 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: always hear that phrase when people talk about sanctions, it's 373 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: hitting one in the wallet. And I can't help but 374 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: think of I think you should leave now where the 375 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: guys like you hit me in the cup? Do you 376 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: remember that? Yeah? You gotta gives yeah, otherwise it'll go dark, right. Uh? 377 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: You know what, I hope if anyone hasn't seen that 378 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: show or that episode, I hope you think we're just 379 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: having a weird freestyle conversation. Just do yourself a favor 380 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: and check it out. The episodes. They're like eighteen minutes 381 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: or something crazy like that. You will know very quickly 382 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: whether it's your thing or not. But I hope it is. 383 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: You hit me in the cup anyway, So those are like, 384 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: that's kind of the bare bones, the different flavors in 385 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: the basket robbins of international sanctions. UH. Sanctions also UH, 386 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: they take international cooperation really be effective. The UN certainly 387 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: thinks about them a lot. One country alone can lead 388 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: a sanction initially do, but they're gonna have a hard 389 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: time meeting their own goals. And yes, that includes that 390 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: includes the big dogs, the China's, the Russia's, the US is. 391 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: And that's because in many cases, if one country won't 392 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: sell you something, like you were pointing out earlier, Matt, 393 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: somebody else will. The US is a huge fan of 394 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: unilateral sanctions. They have regrettable personal experience with this conundrum. 395 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: And that wasn't always the case, because while sanctions sound 396 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: like a modern day thing, back in the in the 397 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: eras of your they did you could totally sanction the 398 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: crap out of someone on your own. Um. There's a 399 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: journalist Uri Friedman who was writing in Foreign Policy and 400 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: he points this out. He says, quote as a blunt 401 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: tool of diplomacy. The concept of sanctions has been around 402 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: at least from the time of the ancient Greeks, when 403 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: Athens imposed the trade embargo on its neighbor Megara in 404 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: four thirty two b CE, so they are very old 405 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: and no like you had you had mentioned, I think 406 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit earlier. The old 407 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: school sanctions were physical shutdowns. Right, we're building a wall 408 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: around all your stuff. Now do what we say. And 409 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: that was a bit different in four or thirty two 410 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: b C where you could literally just send troops and 411 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: block off some roads, kind of like what was happening 412 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: in Ottawa and other places in the world with the trucks, 413 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: but you just do it with soldiers and there's now 414 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 1: do you pronounced that way where they literally line up 415 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: with shields and create a human wall. Yeah, you could 416 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: do that. And to your your pointment, these things were 417 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: happening before there were global trade in communication networks anywhere 418 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: near what exists today. So Megara wouldn't have had the 419 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: option to in pardon my Greek pronunciation, folks, but it 420 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: would have had the option to say, contact some of 421 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: quick of of the u N and say they're starving 422 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: our people. This is collective punishment. This is a siege. 423 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: You know. That is in our opinion, dirty politics or 424 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: dirty diplomacy. Those outlets didn't exist, um and for that's 425 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: why for a long time countries would just send a 426 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: bunch of troops or ships just physically shut it down. 427 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: We control the bay, so good luck getting a ship out, 428 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And naval black aides were 429 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: a huge part of the dominance of European empires in 430 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: the age of expansion there. But as you fast forward, 431 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: you see, like through the centuries, sanctions have become more 432 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: and more sophisticated, they become more and more surgically targeted, 433 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: they've become more and more embedded in the world of 434 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: international finance, but they are still a far cry from perfect, 435 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: like a far crisis from perfect. In fact, a growing 436 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: number of experts are convinced that sanctions don't actually work 437 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: at all. So what what does that mean? Uh? Why 438 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: this is a huge industry, by the way, sanctioning. Uh 439 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: why did they come to that conclusion. We're gonna pause 440 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: for word from our sponsors, sanctions are us, and then 441 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: we're going to dive into the answer. Here's where it 442 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: gets crazy. Let's go back to that earlier example, one 443 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: of the first historically proven records of a sanction, Athens 444 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: tries to shut down its neighbor. Did it work? Well, 445 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: you know depending with no. Basically no, it started the 446 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: Peloponnesian War. Damn, that's exactly who I wanted to avoid. 447 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: I know. It's like I can't believe my elaborate system 448 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: of open flames and oily rags keeps burning down houses. 449 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: I guess I'll try again. Well, I mean, it's one 450 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: of those things too, where you push, you push, you 451 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: you push people, you know, and what do they do? 452 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: They push back Eventually, even if you're not actually setting 453 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: foot on their territory, they are eventually going to react. Well, 454 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: I mean threaten someone's livelihood or you know, an entire 455 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: nation's livelihood and ability to fake on their table. Yeah, 456 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: those are fighting fighting actions, right, fighting sanctions right there. 457 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: It is. It's like we were talking about with direct 458 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: action eco terrorism right as the word that gets thrown around. 459 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: The people on the whaling ship aren't gonna are gonna 460 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: be like all these things you've done to us. Now, 461 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: you know you made a good point. They're they're going 462 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: to want retribution. They're going to push back. Humans are 463 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: relatively Newtonian in that regard. So this is not to 464 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: say the sanctions don't have potential. They just have a 465 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: lot of serious problems that need to be considered. First, 466 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: If you look at those unilateral sanctions, one powerful country 467 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: says no, and that's basically a one powerful country says no. 468 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: Um does it work? Uh? This is something I found 469 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: this interesting. I wanted to share it with with all 470 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: our fellow listeners. Uh. Have you guys heard of the 471 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: Cato Institute Kato Kaylin the neighbor No, but that would 472 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: be way more interesting, not unfortunately Cato from the green 473 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: hornet No, but also even more interesting than the first one. Yeah, 474 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: uh no, Unfortunately none of those things. The Cato Institute 475 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: is a is a think tank that does have its 476 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: own agenda, but it's the think tank that raises some 477 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: really good points about the dangers of these unilateral sanctions 478 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: like the You know again, the most famous one here 479 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: in the West is the US embargo against the neighboring 480 00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: nation of Cuba. Not really, I mean, it's it's politically dirty. 481 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: It's not as if Cuba attacked the US. It's because 482 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: they didn't want the country to be communist, and that's 483 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: that's why they made life just terrible for a bunch 484 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: of people who didn't really get to decide what kind 485 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: of government they would live in they were just born. 486 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: And when they were born, no one asked them like, hey, 487 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: you're a couple of days old, Well, what's your take 488 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: on on, you know, the nature of governance? And nobody 489 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: asked them when they were twenty, nobody asked when they 490 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: were thirty. Nobody's going to ask them on their deathbed. 491 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: But they have to bear the bread to these consequences. 492 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: So like, let's I mean, I just pulled a few 493 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: excerpts here, but I would love to go through these 494 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: and then get everybody's take on whether or not you 495 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: agree or disagree, and then we'll we'll also shed some 496 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: light on Cato Institute too, We'll save that to the 497 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: end um quote. Unilateral sanctions simply do not work. There 498 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: are no examples of US unilateral economic sanctions changing the 499 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: basic character or significant policies of a foreign nation. Thirty 500 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: five year economic embargo of Cuba, a tiny country less 501 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: than ninety miles from the U. S. Coast, is a 502 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: monument to the ineffectiveness of unilateral economic sanctions as a 503 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: foreign policy tool and to the to the this is 504 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: me to the point that we were making earlier, Matt, 505 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, is just going to cause further 506 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: simmering resentment that could explode. And depending on which nation 507 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: or group comes to the aid of the person undergoing 508 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: sanctions or having sanctions imposed on them, it could become 509 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: a much bigger problem with multiple people or nations or 510 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: you know, however you want to put it involved. Yeah, 511 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: So what they're saying here, and there are statistics from 512 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: other sources to back this up if you don't like 513 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: the Cato Institute, they're staying here is if you measure 514 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: the goals of the people instituting the sanctions in this case, 515 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: the US, and then you measure, you know, the cost 516 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: of that saying, and you measure you know what, whatever 517 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: metric you want for these regimes. Because the sanction is 518 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: a regime, it's a set of rules and governing policies. Um, 519 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: if you measure that stuff, it's a bill of goods. 520 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: It's not doing what people wanted it to do. And 521 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: the question is is that because it's being misused or 522 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: it needs to be fixed, or is that because we're 523 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: trying to fix the problem with the wrong tool. Like 524 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: a kitchen whisk is useful, but it's not going to 525 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: help you get a nail into a two by four. 526 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: That's what hammers are for. So that's like a very 527 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: I think for my sake, that's a very dumbed down comparison, 528 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: But that is part of the question. What they're saying 529 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: here is that the idea of a of a one 530 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: entity sanction is just a non starter. And they also 531 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a hit piece or not 532 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: a little This is like the equivalent of a of 533 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: a dis track or a disc line in a hip 534 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: hop song an academic sense. Because they also, as will find, 535 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: accuse the US for giving itself undeserved out of boys 536 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: for sanctions that it will tell you did work out, 537 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: and not to mention that they also the Institute rejects 538 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: the idea that unilateral sanctions against apartheid South Africa worked 539 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: um they wrote on that subject quote. Supporters of sanctions 540 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: often point to South Africa as a success story, but 541 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: the facts tell a different tale. It is unrealistic to 542 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: credit the US Congressional vote for sanctions in October with 543 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: the overthrow of apartheid. Uh It was not outside forces, 544 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: but powerful and well organized domestic political forces that, after 545 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: a three decade long struggle, achieved the peaceful overthrow with 546 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: an anachronistic system that had no moral standing. Wait a minute, 547 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: so are you saying that the U s claim responsibility 548 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: or something someone else did trying to steal the thunder 549 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: of someone else's hard work. I don't believe that would 550 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: ever exactly they're they're saying, Okay, pump your brakes, uncle's 551 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: m I know it all felt Uh, it all felt 552 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: great inside the Beltway, inside the halls of power in 553 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: d C, when you could pat each other on the 554 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: back and say we did it. We made the world 555 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: a better place in South Africa because we made it 556 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: too expensive to continue being monstrous. But that is clearly 557 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: dismissing the multigenerational, multidecade long efforts of people who live 558 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: in the area to make the world better for themselves. Uh, 559 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: this and that that is, you know, put in that light, 560 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: that does seem very dismissing. It's got some shades of 561 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: white savior complex or whatever you wanna call it. But 562 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: it is also politically convenient for the powers to be 563 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: to say we did this. Yeah, other than anybody responsible 564 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: for those kinds of claims, it truly ideologically believes that 565 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: that's the truth. Yeah, Well, there are always a few. 566 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: There are always a few people who like folks are 567 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: really good at rationalization, very cognitively agile and nimble. So 568 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: there are a few people who have convinced themselves in 569 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: retrospect that yes, and there are people who say, you know, 570 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: maybe our sanction regime was not the entire reason that 571 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: apartheid went away, but we played the right role, we 572 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: did the right thing, and I think you can say 573 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: that right. You just can't dismiss the efforts of the 574 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: people who actually lived there and all the work that 575 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: they did two push for a better society. So here's 576 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: where the Cato bias comes in. You might have been 577 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: persuaded while you heard this, You might have thought those 578 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: are good points, maybe sanctions don't work. The thing you 579 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: gotta know about Cato Institute is, yes, it's a think tank. 580 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: It's a libertarian think tank. And that's not to say 581 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: that their points are invalid. I think they're raising very 582 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: good points. But if you do digging, there's a there's 583 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: a website we love here called source Watch, And if 584 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: you go to source watch, it's like a Wikipedia that 585 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: just tells you the associations, the aims, the missions of 586 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: various groups and nonprofits and what have used. So it's 587 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: very valuable today when a lot of bad faith actors 588 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: will try to sell you something under a misleading name. 589 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: So Cato Institute is libertarian think tank, and as such, 590 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: they are always going to be suspicious of any high 591 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: level government involvement in any aspect of commerce. And they're like, hey, 592 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: you should just let people sell and buy stuff, you 593 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's that's where we're coming. We're 594 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: coming through They they make good points, but also you 595 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: have to realize that in general their stance is going 596 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: to be against anything they see as excessive regulation. They 597 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: they think the spice must flow and everything is the spice, 598 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: with the possible exception of nuclear weapons, and not not 599 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: even that all the time. So, in the opinion of 600 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: them and some more conservative, like traditionally conservative forces, the 601 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: real victim of unilateral sanctions on the on the part 602 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: of the US, it's not the governments of those countries. 603 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: It's not even really the people who live in those countries. 604 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: It's the US based businesses who get this are losing money. 605 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: Won't someone think of the corporations they hate that. I 606 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: want to Sarah McLaughlin where it's her talking about saving 607 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: the corporations. You know, I always I always bring this Mr. 608 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: Show quote up, But it's like the movie Executives saying, 609 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: I swear to God, if I have to go from 610 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: being super rich and just rich, I'm gonna kill myself. Hey, 611 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: just in thinking about another source in this kind of 612 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: exactly what we're saying, the efficacy of sanctions. I wanna 613 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: read a quick quote if if I may, that I 614 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: found in This is from the United States Institute of Peace. 615 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: I am just gonna read this to you guys. According 616 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: to a gentleman named Robert Art, his research on applications 617 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: of coercive diplomacy, which is sanctions are a type of 618 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: coercive diplomacy by US policy makers over the past twelve 619 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: years has shown that quote, coercive diplomacy fails more often 620 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: than it than it succeeds. And they are estimating that 621 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: coercive diplomacy techniques have been roughly successful around twenty of 622 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: the time. That and this is one This is one 623 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: opinion and from you know, some group that show that 624 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: studied twelve years of these kinds of things like sanctions, 625 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: and they're saying of the time it's effective. You can 626 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: find other statistics as well that say, like, if we'll 627 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: get to this, like how you measure the so called effectiveness, 628 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: you'll see other statistics that say, over the length of time, 629 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: this has a relatively negligible effect on economies, right, and 630 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: many men. Any cases, it's not always the case, right, 631 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: because is not zero, is not even there's definitely not 632 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: a B plus. It's not even a passing grade. That's 633 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that gets you held back in school. 634 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: So this, this is clear, clearly case of asking about 635 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: the motivations of the people making the sanctions. Again, the 636 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: game is already rigged because you have to be a 637 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: powerful station or you have to be part of a 638 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: powerful international block of nations, like a group of people 639 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: the U N or the European Union. You have to 640 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: be at that level to enforce sanctions, to make them 641 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: real things other than just like an official we hate 642 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: this country meeting. Right, So, with what we know about 643 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: the conversation, now, can we say that sanctions are worth it? 644 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: We'll tackle that after a word from our sponsor, who's 645 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: hopefully a seller of miniature false flags. We're back, all right. Look, 646 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: at best, we can call the efficacy of sanctions the 647 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: degree to which they work debatable. And that's not because 648 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: it's at heart a terrible idea. It's because it's very 649 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: difficult to measure their level of success. First, you have 650 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: to define their level of success, and that can be 651 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: tricky on its own. Want to introduced the director of 652 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: the Master's in International Security degree program as well as 653 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: the Center for Security Policy Studies at George Basin University, 654 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: uh one Ellen Laipson, who says, look, if we're just 655 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: gonna summarize, she says, look, if it's your intention to 656 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: punish a country, then just measuring the economic pain you've 657 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: inflicted on that country. Yeah, that's a way of saying 658 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: it worked, right, Like we tanked the economy. Therefore, success, 659 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: go team. Let's get on and let's get on another 660 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: naval vessel and have a big gas sign that says 661 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: mission accomplished. Let's get that photo. Op. Yeah, don't do it. 662 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't work out. It does historically, like history judges 663 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: that kind of action very very poorly. Well, I be, 664 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you like so, I mean, obviously 665 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: many things are ideological in government in terms of like 666 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: this is gonna be our thing, either as a party 667 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: or as a candidate or as a you know, an 668 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: elected official, would you say that sanctions or the idea 669 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: of kind of carrots and sticks is one of those 670 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: where it's like some people that that is believe in 671 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: it all in, like this is the way and we're gonna, 672 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, work our diplomatic magic and effect change across 673 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: the world with this brilliant series of sanctions. And then 674 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: there are some maybe that that don't lean into it 675 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: as hard and think what we what you're saying that 676 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: maybe it's debated. I think, yeah, I think it's Uh. 677 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: You raise a really interesting point. So across the history 678 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: of the US political parties, members of any political party 679 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: have been for sanctions in the past, unless they're absolute isolationist, 680 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: which is incredibly rare these days. But what we do 681 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 1: see is that when sanctions are politically convenient, they get support. 682 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: So if you are a politician who is seen a 683 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: lot of good polling numbers every time you say I 684 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: hate Russia or I hate China and I'm very hawkish 685 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: on those those two countries or something, then of course 686 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna reply. You're gonna give your audience what they want, 687 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: because they're not going to ask you hard policy questions, 688 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: and you can always differ because you're only really going 689 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: to be talking on the news for like what a 690 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: couple couple of minutes at a time unless you really 691 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: screw up, So you don't have to explain your actual calculus. 692 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: All you have to do is respond is create the 693 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: feedback loop what people want. That is the nature of politics. 694 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: It's one of the broken things about that system. But 695 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: you're right, so it does. It happens case by case 696 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: when convenient for domestic powers or when they feel like 697 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: there is an existential threat to global security or you know, 698 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: to the US. So they would say, hey, we've all 699 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 1: had our differences, but Iran just cannot have a nuclear bomb, right, 700 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: we can agree on that, right, And then like the 701 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: very far right people are like, we should have the 702 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: most nukes, right, and the far left people are like, well, 703 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: I would like for their not to be any nukes, 704 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: but we can agree that Iran shouldn't have any, and 705 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: they're like, all right, deal, we'll team up for this one. 706 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 1: That's how that's how that kind of stuff happens. And 707 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: in the similar teaming up against groups like al Qaeda 708 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: and isole isis in those word sanctions because a pretty 709 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: much universally agreed yes, because no one wants to risk 710 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: political suicide by saying hold on right, Like, I know 711 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: terrorists are bad, but I think these sanctions are an 712 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: overreach because that first line wouldn't make it into the news. 713 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: You would be the person where it's like, you know, uh, 714 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: Senator Scully Brownstone or whatever comes out in support of ISIS. 715 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 1: That's what people would remember. They wouldn't think you had 716 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: some nuanced standing on policy and philosophy of market forces. 717 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: Even if you did, even if like your degree was 718 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: in that, it wouldn't matter. So, yeah, people are going 719 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: to do that. Um, but what if we try to 720 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: measure But if we try to measure success not by 721 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 1: the financial pain inflicted on innocent people in a country 722 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: and the country's rulers. Maybe, But what if we tried 723 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: to measure it by see seeing the change in the 724 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 1: country's behavior. Did the country begin to do the stuff 725 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: you wanted to you push them into doing or tempt 726 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: them into doing? Did you care at them? Right? With 727 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: like an aid package? See that's the nice side of sanctions, right, 728 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff like that aid package, technical assistance, 729 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: support logistics, that kind of stuff. You can give actors 730 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: things too, but if you try to, if you try 731 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: to measure the degree of change in behavior, you have 732 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: to use a way different metric, and in that case, 733 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: by that definition, which is the actual definition you should 734 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: be using. Right by that definition, most sanctions clearly fail 735 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: because countries, like people become resistant. They'll be willing to 736 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: absorb pain for the reasons of pride, for nationalism. They 737 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: don't want to concede to this, uh, this bigger country 738 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 1: that is very easily seen as a bully, and often 739 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: with good reason. They imagine, even if they're not thinking 740 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 1: of it in these trope terms, they imagine that David 741 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: versus Goliath situation. You know what I mean, Um, just 742 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,439 Speaker 1: because my country is smaller than yours does not give 743 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: you the right to act as though you rule us. 744 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,879 Speaker 1: And that's a good point as well, you know, Like 745 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: like you said, us leaned hard on on Cuba. The 746 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: USSR was waiting with open arms. They said, we get you. 747 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: Not only do we get you this like this is 748 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 1: a way of the petty things. I love the petty details. 749 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: They were like, not only do we get you, not 750 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: only have your back, bro, but we're gonna all that 751 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,319 Speaker 1: sugar you can't sell, We're gonna buy it, and we're 752 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: gonna purposely overpay for it. So five times what you're 753 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: supposed to pay for a kilo. That's you take it. 754 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: Go do something nice, do something good. Fires. Do you 755 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: like missiles, We get a lot of missiles. I mean, 756 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: do eminescent do some missiles? Okay, don't worry about this. 757 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: And they were doing that to support the country, but 758 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,919 Speaker 1: they were also inevitably on some level doing it because 759 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: they knew it would piss off the US. It was 760 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,800 Speaker 1: a flex they also knew would kind of scare the US. 761 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: I'm just bringing this back to foreign policy that's occurring 762 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: right now as we're recording this. Because of the proximity 763 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 1: to the United States, where the US r us SR 764 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 1: was operating, very similarly to where there are major issues 765 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: in Ukraine right now, I would pause it, and I'm 766 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: no expert here because of the proximity to the Russian 767 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: Federation or to Russia. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean ultimately, 768 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: what you want is hegemony. You want to go from 769 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: being a regional power to ultimately being a global powers. 770 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: So that's where you get into the concept of vassal states. 771 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: Where clients states, I believe would be the proper terminology, 772 00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: because nobody likes to bring up the concept of serfdom 773 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: and vassal hood, even when it is very appropriate. Anyway, 774 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: you want, you know, want the fact, though impractice serenity 775 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,279 Speaker 1: over neighboring countries. You want to have the most influence, 776 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: right and you also, ideally I don't want to have 777 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 1: the responsibility and accountability you would have if they were 778 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: really part of your country, you know what I mean. 779 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: So you're the idea is it's a devil's bargain. Do 780 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,720 Speaker 1: what we say. We'll protect you from the wolves across 781 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: the way, though we are in this case also a wolf. 782 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: Well it just as another quick example there been. I 783 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,160 Speaker 1: keep thinking about North Korea and just how gloriously unsuccessful 784 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 1: sanctions against North Korea have been at getting the quote 785 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: Hermit state to change it's oppositional stance two countries around it. 786 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,399 Speaker 1: I mean, how many missile tests is that country done 787 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,839 Speaker 1: in the past ten years and sanctions have been on them? 788 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: What gosh? I mean the main ones I'm thinking about 789 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 1: happening in the mid nineties and they still like, I 790 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just it almost hardened their position. I 791 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: would say it just occurred to me. The Hermit state, 792 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: I guess, refers to the fact that they don't ever 793 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: really leave the house, you know, or at least the 794 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: global house. Yeah. Yeah. And also that's a really interesting 795 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: of course, I'm going to say that. Don't feel like 796 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 1: that has to be part of a drinking game, because 797 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,799 Speaker 1: you'll drink too much. But um, but jo. Politically, it's 798 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: really interesting because out of all, like all the countries 799 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,479 Speaker 1: in the region, and then other countries evolved in things 800 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: like the Six Party talks, like the US, they don't 801 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: really want the peninsula to reunite. China doesn't really want 802 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: South Korea or a democratic South Korea right on its 803 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: border like that. It's already close enough. And and you know, 804 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: of course, the families have been ripped apart by by 805 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: the Korean War, and these beautiful moments when people on 806 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: the sides on different sides of the borders can reunite 807 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:10,880 Speaker 1: after decades, and both the Republic of Korea and the 808 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: DPRK do publicly state they would love to reunify the peninsula, 809 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,600 Speaker 1: but they each think their government should be in charge 810 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: when that reunification occurs, and the power like the global 811 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: superpowers are particularly pressuring this country, North Korea to open 812 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: up ultimately because before before Russian power really started deteriorating, 813 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 1: they were a powerful ally of DPRK. And no also 814 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 1: nobody talks about this, but for a while, uh, average 815 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 1: quality of life in DPRK was better than it was 816 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,480 Speaker 1: in the Republic of Korea. That's very much not the 817 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: case now. But anyway, yes, you're what I'm saying, as 818 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: your example holds the backyard reasoning is real here and 819 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,640 Speaker 1: it's very much a Nimby situation. Not in my backyard, 820 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: say World Powers. I love that movie The Secret of Nimby. Yes, 821 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: I like it too. I was gonna actually have a 822 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: movie night, uh and put it on a big projector outside, 823 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: just not in my backyard, maybe one of yours. No, 824 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: no joked. The Secretive m is one of my favorite 825 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: animated movies of all. It's very sad, but it is beautiful. 826 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: I watched it with my kid when she was like 827 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 1: maybe seven or eight, and I cry. Pixar movies, to 828 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,480 Speaker 1: be fair, but I cried a lot. That's an adult 829 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: what's in the Secretive So that reminds me of one 830 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: of the biggest points we have to talk about today, 831 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: and so that one of the last points of this 832 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: episode unintended consequences. I wanted to see this movie. I 833 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 1: didn't know it would turn on the wet works or 834 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 1: as a good pal, Chandler Maye says, send the Onion 835 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: Ninjas to my house, which took me forever to understand that. Like, 836 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,399 Speaker 1: I feel like you walked down the street to make 837 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 1: that reference. Oh my god, you should. But it's quite brilliant. Uh, 838 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,240 Speaker 1: you know what a secretive nime is also about unintended 839 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: and so the unintended consequences here are not super smart 840 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: rodents spoiler alert. But I didn't ruin it for you. 841 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,919 Speaker 1: I'm it's it's about this, like it's on the back cover. Yeah, 842 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: it's in the blurb. Picture this. Let's say you are 843 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: targeting a country that is ruled by an authoritarian, oppressive regime, 844 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,879 Speaker 1: and you're targeting them because you want them to quit 845 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 1: their human rights abuses. You want them to stop threatening 846 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,360 Speaker 1: adjacent countries and becoming bellicost and pushing for war or 847 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: annexing places, or you know, stealing resources or aiding and 848 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,840 Speaker 1: embedding terrorism. You name it, all the hits, all the 849 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: good ones, and then you say, okay, we're gonna hit 850 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,319 Speaker 1: on what a massive economic sanction. And the goal of 851 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: this is we are going to make their current actions 852 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,440 Speaker 1: so increasingly expensive, so cost prohibitive, that it will be 853 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: to their financial advantage to start creating first a less 854 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: aggressive government and then a more democratic government. And those 855 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: things never happened in a vacuum. There are a lot 856 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: other levels they get pulled with that now, but that's basic. Well, 857 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,799 Speaker 1: here's the problem. The vast majority of that population and 858 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: they're living in an authoritarian or corrupt regime. They have 859 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,960 Speaker 1: no say in politics, just like we're pointing out in 860 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: like a Cuban situation, they don't really have a say. 861 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 1: They will nonetheless they will be first in line to 862 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: suffer the consequences of this stuff. And the people in power, 863 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,000 Speaker 1: the people you're trying to intimidate or squeeze or smack 864 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,279 Speaker 1: with the political stick a little bit, they're the They're 865 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 1: like the only folks in those countries who have the 866 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,920 Speaker 1: connections and influence to soften the blow is still get 867 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,800 Speaker 1: what they want. Oh I can't officially get it. Um, 868 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,280 Speaker 1: I can't officially get that McLaren or that giant whale 869 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: skeleton that I wanted for my second mansion. I'll just 870 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,640 Speaker 1: call my other dictator body, you know what, you know 871 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,200 Speaker 1: what those things, that's a lot of responsibilities. He's got 872 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: someone for that. It's got whale skeleton people already. Uh. 873 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 1: He walks by and looks at it, shout out again 874 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 1: to Putin's Putin's mansion in the interior of that. But uh, 875 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,920 Speaker 1: but what will happen then, is they can you they 876 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,120 Speaker 1: have the opportunity and the wherewithal to use proxy companies, 877 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: right to have other forces, third parties get around those sanctions, 878 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,320 Speaker 1: and it happens, happens all the time whenever it's advantageous 879 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 1: for that third party to help. So, so what this 880 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: means is this sanction could accidentally and quickly become widespread 881 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:55,000 Speaker 1: collective punishment inflicted on people whose lives weren't already super 882 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 1: great to begin with. Part of the u N itself, 883 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,959 Speaker 1: who's big in the sanction game, agrees with this. Even 884 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,759 Speaker 1: they play a huge role in the imposition of sanctions, 885 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: and as recently they found that unilateral sanctions in particular, 886 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: which was very a cough cough us cough cough statement. 887 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,880 Speaker 1: They said those in particular cause innocent people living in 888 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:24,040 Speaker 1: those countries to sink into poverty. They can't get electricity, housing, water, gas, fuel, 889 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: basic stuff. And what is what is that going to do? 890 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,359 Speaker 1: Are they gonna be like I am suffering because this 891 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: country I have never visited? Is right about this country 892 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,800 Speaker 1: in which I was born? You know? Um not to mention, 893 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: then I'll let you get your get the gold medal, right, 894 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,319 Speaker 1: you don't. You don't get the medicine, you don't get 895 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: the food. Just point out quickly a source that we 896 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: found for this, and it actually comes from the u 897 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,560 Speaker 1: N itself. It's news dot u N dot org and 898 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: the title of this article is punishment of quote innocent 899 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,880 Speaker 1: civilians through government sanctions must end, according to u N experts, 900 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,440 Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't that fall under collateral damage? I mean, 901 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: these aren't bombs, but they have unintended consequences, which is 902 00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: what collateral casualties surrounding targeted you know, military. That's part 903 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,759 Speaker 1: of the not logic. And do want to point out 904 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 1: that report came from a group of independent experts who 905 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,439 Speaker 1: are appointed by the Human Rights Council, which is its 906 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,880 Speaker 1: own bag of badgers. And you know there are there 907 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:34,640 Speaker 1: are many many arguments out there about them, overall accuracy 908 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,400 Speaker 1: of the Human Rights Council and whether it might be 909 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,520 Speaker 1: rigged because there have been member States on the Human 910 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 1: Rights Council in the past who have just astonishingly bad 911 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: domestic human rights records anyway, so you could there are 912 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: going to be people who say it's a poison source. 913 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,320 Speaker 1: But those were independent experts and they did say to 914 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: the people who make a lot of sanctions, hey, sanctions 915 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: are bad. You do we get we get what you're 916 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,239 Speaker 1: going for, but it's bad. And if we go to 917 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: like what you're bringing up nol on the other side 918 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,640 Speaker 1: of sort of the octopus here people imposing sanctions. No, 919 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,240 Speaker 1: they're not perfect, but they believe they're making a call 920 00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 1: and favor the greater good. The calculus is like, Okay, 921 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,760 Speaker 1: is it better for us to run the risk of 922 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 1: making lives of innocent people measurably worse if it means 923 00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: we can prevent a dangerous government from getting and deploying 924 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 1: like an atomic bomb? You know what I mean? Is 925 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: life going to be less cool for some people so 926 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,520 Speaker 1: that other people can survive? Or should we just let 927 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,520 Speaker 1: those ponies ride? You know what I mean? Let those 928 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 1: ponies run. Uh. It's it's tough, man. It's a tough 929 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: question because the question would be a lot easier to 930 00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 1: answer if the effective sanctions were easier to dickt. But 931 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 1: these days, so many countries, especially the US, the overall 932 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:08,040 Speaker 1: global West, are convinced that these actions are necessary for 933 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: continued global peace and security, or for being cynical to 934 00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:19,360 Speaker 1: continue a profitable status quo. Right like the shadow of 935 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: colonialism looms large. There's a reason that the West has 936 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 1: taken so many actions in the Middle East and so 937 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,880 Speaker 1: many actions on the African continent, and it's not to 938 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: help the people who live there. Y. Yeah, So at 939 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,919 Speaker 1: this point reasonable to ask, where are you talking about 940 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 1: this on stuff they don't want you to know, guys. Well, 941 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,560 Speaker 1: it's it's a problem transparency, it's a problem of consent. 942 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: The innocent people most likely to be victimized by sanctions are, 943 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 1: in theory, some of the same people those sanctions are 944 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,120 Speaker 1: supposed to help. They don't get essay in international affairs, 945 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,439 Speaker 1: they don't get to talk in Congress, they don't get 946 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: to speak to the U N. In fact, I was 947 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:03,120 Speaker 1: thinking about this. In fact, the harsh economic conditions, you know, 948 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,360 Speaker 1: these empty grocery stores, the inability to get a job, 949 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,240 Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff, all that fallout can 950 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,680 Speaker 1: these things can often be directly traced to sanctions, and 951 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,960 Speaker 1: they can get this, they can run the risk of 952 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,680 Speaker 1: radicalizing the population, bullstering support for the same regimes this 953 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,240 Speaker 1: sanction seeks to topple. So it's I don't know, it's 954 00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: a way of adding fuel to the fire. And it 955 00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:32,320 Speaker 1: seems such a transparent problem in logic here that it 956 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,240 Speaker 1: must be impossible for at least some of the people 957 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,840 Speaker 1: imposing sanctions not to know this, which calls their motivations 958 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,040 Speaker 1: for the sanctions themselves into question. Is that too many? 959 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,040 Speaker 1: Is that too much of a stretch? No, I don't 960 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,560 Speaker 1: think so at all. I'm actually really glad we're talking 961 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: about this, Ben, because sanctions are in the news prominently 962 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: right now with regards to Russia, and you know of 963 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,960 Speaker 1: some actions of the United States and the u N 964 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 1: may or may not be taking against Russia because of 965 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 1: their actions with regards to Ukraine, and then I'm just 966 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: glad we've got a better understanding of it. Though it 967 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,200 Speaker 1: does feel like it may not be the best move, 968 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,320 Speaker 1: because if you don't want to radicalize someone further. You 969 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 1: don't want to cause further tensions. It seems like sanctioning 970 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: someone is maybe a bad idea, and it can also 971 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you push a government to a desperate place, 972 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,160 Speaker 1: it starts considering other options, right like when whenever you 973 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 1: have any and we don't like those options cornered. Yeah, well, 974 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,440 Speaker 1: and honestly not a lot of people do. UM, So 975 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:40,760 Speaker 1: you're right when we talk about this, Look, we don't 976 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:45,040 Speaker 1: We don't have the answers. These can be dangerous situations. Um, 977 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the right level of economic sanctions can absolutely just wreck 978 01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,200 Speaker 1: a country, and that means it will be very dangerous 979 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: for the people who live in that country. When elephants 980 01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,440 Speaker 1: make war, it is the grass that suffers, and so on. 981 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,200 Speaker 1: So with this, we want to leave it to you. 982 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: What do you think sanctions? Are you for them? Are 983 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,200 Speaker 1: you against them? Are they worth it? Do they work? 984 01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:13,560 Speaker 1: What would be the alternative? Oh, they're coming, that's the alternative. 985 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,480 Speaker 1: I guess we're keeping that one in. Uh. The streets 986 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,960 Speaker 1: are hot, folks. Uh. We hope things are going well 987 01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,040 Speaker 1: in your neck of the global woods, and we can't 988 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,400 Speaker 1: wait to hear your take. We try to be easy 989 01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,600 Speaker 1: to find online. Find us online. Indeed, we exist under 990 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,560 Speaker 1: the handle at conspiracy Stuff on Facebook, YouTube and Twitter 991 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,440 Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram. Or why do I 992 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,520 Speaker 1: give us a telephone call? Matt? How can they do 993 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: that thing they call one eight three three st d 994 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,120 Speaker 1: w y t K. That's just stuff they don't want 995 01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,400 Speaker 1: you to know in acronym form, call that number. Give 996 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,840 Speaker 1: yourself a cool nickname, We would appreciate it. 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