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Speaker 1: Richard Bandler is not an easy man to get a

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Speaker 1: hold of.

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Speaker 2: We've sent him countless emails over the past two years

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Speaker 2: through his handlers, who always blew us off.

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Speaker 1: We obviously wanted his perspective, being the co founder of

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Speaker 1: neuro Linguistic Programming and all, but he didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: want to talk to us. Meanwhile, we've interviewed Bandler's friends

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Speaker 1: and former collaborators, even his lawyer, hoping he would realize

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Speaker 1: we were serious and doing our homework.

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Speaker 2: But no response, nothing, radio silence. I'm honestly baffled by

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Speaker 2: how evasive he is. Bandler's not as famous as other

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Speaker 2: people who've agreed to talk with us for this podcast,

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Speaker 2: like Tony Robbins, or even infamous like Nancy Salzman.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he just hates the press. But but we also

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Speaker 1: began to wonder if he has something to hide, which

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Speaker 1: frankly is like Alice Catnip.

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Speaker 2: I'm in the airport in London. Gatwick just got off

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Speaker 2: the flight.

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Speaker 1: So in late May twenty twenty five, Alice headed to

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Speaker 1: London to track him down.

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Speaker 2: I am coming here to see Richard Bandler in the flesh.

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Speaker 2: We've sent multiple letters to this guy trying to get

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Speaker 2: him to talk to us, and so far we have

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Speaker 2: been completely ignored. Does it make me want to come

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Speaker 2: all the way here across the ocean to find this

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Speaker 2: guy and show up at his hypnosis conference.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it does.

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm gonna do. I got a ticket to

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Speaker 2: a two day seminar the Power of Hypnosis, taught by

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Speaker 2: the man himself. Bandler is in his mid seventies and

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Speaker 2: he's been doing NLP for half a century. I'm hoping

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Speaker 2: to see the man behind the myth. I'm actually staying

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Speaker 2: in the hotel where the hypnosis conference will occur.

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Speaker 1: I hope he is too.

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Speaker 2: That way, I'll have lots of opportunities to introduce myself.

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Speaker 3: Here we go, take a deep breath in.

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Speaker 4: And breathe out.

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Speaker 5: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so

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Speaker 5: that I can speak for him and your unconscious mind.

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Speaker 3: You can notice that you feel rested moral arned.

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Speaker 2: Concident from Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is Mind Games

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Speaker 2: episode nine. I'm Alice Hines.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Zoe Lascaus. In this episode our final episode,

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Speaker 1: a reckoning for Bandler and for his creation Neurolinguistic Programming.

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Speaker 4: Yo Da how you did it?

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Speaker 5: You go into a little time, a tarsia stakes, and

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Speaker 5: you're out of it.

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Speaker 1: So far in this series, we've looked at NLP as

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Speaker 1: it grew from a groovy alternative psych movement in California

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Speaker 1: to a persuasion technology big with army spies, major corporations,

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Speaker 1: pick up artists, and cults like Nexium.

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Speaker 2: Also everyday people around the world like us.

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Speaker 1: We've been trying it out on ourselves and our friends.

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Speaker 2: And we've explored how NLP can be used as a

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Speaker 2: genuine tool for self help, but.

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Speaker 1: It can also be used as an aid in manipulation

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Speaker 1: and brainwashing.

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Speaker 2: We've looked at NLP from basically every angle, well every

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Speaker 2: angle but one. Bandler's own.

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Speaker 1: Alice tell us how you finally got to Bandler?

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Speaker 2: Well, it started in London. I was brushing up on

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Speaker 2: my hypnosis skills ahead of this conference. I'm like steeped

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Speaker 2: in these DVDs, but it's not the same as seeing

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Speaker 2: someone in person.

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Speaker 1: How often does he teach life seminars these days?

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Speaker 2: Bandler does around three of these events every year, and

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Speaker 2: this one had him build alongside this celebrity UK hypnotist

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Speaker 2: named Paul McKenna. There were around three hundred people in

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Speaker 2: the audience, and honestly the room was packed. People paid

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Speaker 2: at least five hundred pounds to attend. I also paid

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Speaker 2: my own way, and in doing so signed a waiver

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Speaker 2: as an attendee, promising I would not record any of

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Speaker 2: the actual session. So I get it. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: his intellectual property. He sells these tapes. But I was

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Speaker 2: able to talk to some fellow students outside of the event. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what brings you here?

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Speaker 6: Alex?

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Speaker 7: Just learning how to hypnotize my clients to be a

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Speaker 7: better deal maker.

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Speaker 2: Alex looks to be in his mid thirties and is

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Speaker 2: wearing a slick gray suit. He's there with his gorgeous

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Speaker 2: blonde wife, and they tell me they want to use

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Speaker 2: NLP's persuasion techniques in order to sell hyper Bear chambers.

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Speaker 2: This is essentially a medical device. You breathe pure oxygen

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Speaker 2: and a pressurized environment. It can be used to revive divers.

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Speaker 2: But it's also big these days among longevity bros.

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Speaker 7: You can slow down aging, you can decrease biological aging

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Speaker 7: bites alone ten years.

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Speaker 2: Alex claim to have a lot of celebrity clients.

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Speaker 7: Kim Kardashian Brian Johnson sports teams like NFL NBA teams

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Speaker 7: Manchester United.

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Speaker 2: He hoped NLP would be part of both his selling

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Speaker 2: and deal making.

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Speaker 7: I use empathy when I negotiate.

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Speaker 6: That's part of it.

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Speaker 2: Filding rapport.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I can manipulate clients of leading towards my technology.

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Speaker 2: Alex was exactly the type of person I was expecting

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Speaker 2: to find at a Banler seminar in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: a sales guy of a fringe wellness hardware. But there

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Speaker 2: were also a lot of people like Oliver.

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Speaker 6: I just want to understand a part of my mind.

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Speaker 6: I think it's super important, Like you know what I mean. Like,

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Speaker 6: imagine we're born and we never understand really how powerful

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Speaker 6: we are. Like that's a tragedy in my life.

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Speaker 2: He's a life coach and personal trainer.

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Speaker 6: Like a holistic gym as well. It's not like a

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Speaker 6: normal gym. It's like a gym for having people evolved

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Speaker 6: their consciousness.

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Speaker 2: Or Andrea, a nice, hippyish mom who was using an

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Speaker 2: LP to help with her social anxiety and to improve

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Speaker 2: her relationship with her daughter.

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Speaker 8: But also, my daughter's left home, so I don't have

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Speaker 8: the AMMO to be so reactive.

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Speaker 1: How old is your daughter?

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Speaker 8: She's twenty now twenty?

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Speaker 2: What does she think about NLP.

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Speaker 8: Oh hates it?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 8: She was seven when I started doing it. She was

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Speaker 8: my only client. I was like, come on, I'm going.

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Speaker 6: To do this with you.

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Speaker 8: She's just she used to say. I mean, even at

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Speaker 8: that age, she'd say, you stupid psychology woman, with your

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Speaker 8: stupid psychology ways.

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Speaker 2: Andrea and I up during the seminar's first breakout session

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Speaker 2: and practiced hypnotizing each other. It actually worked pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's cheesy, but I related to her as a

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Speaker 2: mom who wanted the best for her daughter. Then there

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Speaker 2: was Bandler. He lectured and did demos on stage when

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Speaker 2: we weren't working in these small groups. Getting to see

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Speaker 2: Bandler live after watching an embarrassing quantity of his DVDs

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Speaker 2: was pretty fascinating. Bandler's in his mid seventies now. He

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Speaker 2: doesn't look like a biker from the movie Easy Rider anymore.

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Speaker 2: He was wearing a suit and had sort of a round,

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Speaker 2: tall body and white hair, and was clean shaven. His

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Speaker 2: mobility was kind of limited. He had to be helped

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Speaker 2: on and off stage. People lined up at one point

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Speaker 2: for autographs and there was an entire team devoted to

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Speaker 2: line control, making sure no one cut or came close

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Speaker 2: to him out of turn.

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Speaker 1: What there were Bandler bouncers? Yeah, oh god, what a celeb.

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Speaker 2: His lectures were meandering and kind of random at some points,

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Speaker 2: like he ran to about taxes, but his hypnosis demos

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Speaker 2: were pretty impressive. The guy still has it. At one

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Speaker 2: point he had the whole room chanting.

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Speaker 1: Bandler, Bandler, Bandler, and see about.

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Speaker 2: What happened on stage?

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Speaker 9: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Paul Dunley is a tall Irish guy. I chatted with

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Speaker 2: him over lunch after I saw him get hypnotized by Bandler.

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Speaker 9: So he suggested to me I am Elvis Presley.

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Speaker 2: Paul got up on stage and crooned after Bandler put

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Speaker 2: him in a trance, he's.

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Speaker 9: Your film a page? Shall I come back again? Tell me?

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Speaker 9: Are your loads ton?

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like Elvis?

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Speaker 6: Now? Do I feel?

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Speaker 9: Do you know? It's a strange guest. It's easier when

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Speaker 9: you kind of go into a character and you believe

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Speaker 9: you're in that character, then there's no doubt. So it

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Speaker 9: helped me. Being in in France, I was just absolutely elevius.

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Speaker 2: But something even weirder happened when Paul was on stage,

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Speaker 2: his body twitched in this involuntary way.

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Speaker 9: Just shaken all over. It's connecting with this divine energy outside.

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Speaker 2: Us, like he was having a seizure, or like he

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Speaker 2: was possessed by the Holy Spirit.

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Speaker 9: I mean, the charging Jesus from your tonails right up

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Speaker 9: through all the body, right up into the head, right

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Speaker 9: up in the light. Everything is just alive. So you're

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Speaker 9: shaking uncontrollably.

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Speaker 2: I felt sort of embarrassed watching this, but it was

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Speaker 2: undeniably fascinating. Paul wasn't the only person who had a

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Speaker 2: powerful physical reaction to being hypnotized by Bandler. What happened

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Speaker 2: on stage today.

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Speaker 10: I've been struggling with a lot of pain now I'd

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Speaker 10: mentioned to it, so that lunchtime was something I could

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Speaker 10: possibly do. Like in the terms of self hypnosis, I

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Speaker 10: was wondering, whender if I could do something myself, because

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Speaker 10: all I'm doing and is thinking about it constantly.

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Speaker 2: When Kevin got up on stage that afternoon, he said

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Speaker 2: every step he took hurt his body, But then on

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Speaker 2: stage the.

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Speaker 10: Pain completely disappeared. On the stage. When I came back out,

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Speaker 10: the body impacted it because I've been locked in this

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Speaker 10: way for weeks and weeks and weeks. I'm aware that

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Speaker 10: it's there, but the way I feel about it is

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Speaker 10: totally different.

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Speaker 2: On stage, Bamdler told Kevin to imagine he was bathing

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Speaker 2: in an unbelievable sense of warmth and comfort, and he

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Speaker 2: did some hands on touching of Kevin's shoulders and knee.

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Speaker 10: I was thinking about all the things that's good about

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Speaker 10: my body, not just the thing that's at the moment

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Speaker 10: is not the best.

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Speaker 6: And I kept thinking this term this.

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Speaker 10: Too shall pass, This too shall pass, and it was just, yeah,

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Speaker 10: it was really strange.

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Speaker 2: So as I was talking to Kevin, this other lady

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Speaker 2: named Gwen came up to him and she was like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: that was in a stat thing to witness.

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Speaker 8: When you worked up on the stage, your pain or

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Speaker 8: your discomfort was palpable.

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Speaker 2: Could tell I've had that, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that guy's hard.

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Speaker 6: But when you got up, well, even through it, you

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Speaker 6: were like going into place.

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Speaker 2: But when you stood up, like you just moved completely differently.

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Speaker 2: It was like holy shit.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I know from our research, Zoe, that hypnosis can

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Speaker 2: be a really powerful thing for pain relief, specifically, like

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Speaker 2: there's really good data behind this that said, I was

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Speaker 2: a little skeptical of what was happening on stage because

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Speaker 2: it seemed like there was a lot of pressure on

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Speaker 2: Kevin to have some sort of dramatic transformation, so.

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Speaker 1: It felt kind of phony, like he was partially just

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Speaker 1: meeting the expectations of Bandler in the crowd.

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Speaker 2: I think so, but not every part of the event

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Speaker 2: felt phony to me, Like, I actually really loved working

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Speaker 2: with my fellow students. There's something that felt radical about

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Speaker 2: letting a random stranger hypnotiz. I resisted it at first,

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Speaker 2: but when I gave in, it was honestly awesome, Like

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Speaker 2: what if these are skills that truly anyone can use?

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Speaker 1: And that's the spirit out of which NLP was born.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's how it got started, people experimenting on

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Speaker 1: each other, genuinely wanting to experiment and change and grow together.

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Speaker 1: And I'm frankly glad to hear that that spirit is

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Speaker 1: still alive and well.

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Speaker 2: It definitely is. On the other hand, I found Bangler

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Speaker 2: very abrasive.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, what rubbed you the wrong way?

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Speaker 2: Well, at one point he exploded on this guy in

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Speaker 2: the front row. This is a guy who had paid

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Speaker 2: for a VIP ticket. Okay, and the guy, I guess,

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Speaker 2: was taking notes and his pen was jiggling while he

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Speaker 2: was taking notes. Bandler interrupted his own lecture and exploded

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Speaker 2: on the guy. He told him to stop or move

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Speaker 2: out of the seat because apparently the jiggling distracted him.

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Speaker 1: Yikes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the funny thing is this pen outburst and

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Speaker 2: what I considered pretty abrasive behavior didn't bother most people.

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Speaker 9: So I think it's a very clever strategy that he

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Speaker 9: has to break down barriers. He doesn't over complicate.

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Speaker 6: He's like, no bullshit.

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Speaker 2: It's like everyone can can grasp it.

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Speaker 6: It's not over people's heads.

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Speaker 11: I could actually sit and listen to Richard probably for

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Speaker 11: a week.

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Speaker 4: He just makes me die a lobster.

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Speaker 3: He's fopulous.

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Speaker 4: Hmmm.

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Speaker 1: So people were eating up this semi hostile vibe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but they didn't just love Bandler as a wise

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Speaker 2: guy from America. They also saw him as a healer.

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Speaker 2: What did it change in your life?

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Speaker 10: Just got me to look at the the damage you

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Speaker 10: can do with your thoughts, but the power you can

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Speaker 10: do with it when you use it the right way.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Hearing from Bandler's fans only made me want to talk

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Speaker 2: to him more. He basically ignored me at the conference

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Speaker 2: after one of his handlers said he wasn't available to talk,

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Speaker 2: But we ended up speaking a few months later. I

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Speaker 2: got to learn what it was like to be the

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Speaker 2: target of a Bandler outburst.

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Speaker 1: Did you juggle a pen?

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Speaker 6: Way?

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Speaker 8: Worse?

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Speaker 1: That's after the break.

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Speaker 2: Richard Bandler a man who invented a set of techniques,

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Speaker 2: a human technology, as some call it, is a paradox.

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Speaker 2: The paradox of Richard Bandler is that he is an

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Speaker 2: emotionally explosive man with a troubled past, who makes his

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Speaker 2: living teaching people emotional controls.

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Speaker 1: And how to literally entrance others through the subtleties of communication.

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Speaker 2: And yet the pen thing, how he exploded on a

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Speaker 2: random spectator at an event, It suggests what we've known

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Speaker 2: about bands for a while is still true. He's volatile.

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Speaker 1: He's cultivated this tough guy image since he was a

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Speaker 1: teenager wearing a knife on his hip. More recently, Bandler

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Speaker 1: bragged to a reporter for The Guardian that he deliberately

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Speaker 1: electrocuted his stepfather when he was ten.

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Speaker 2: Multiple people have said he pulled guns and threatened to

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Speaker 2: punch people to prompt behavioral change.

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Speaker 1: His ex wife also accused him of choking her, and

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Speaker 1: according to court documents from his murder trial, he also

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Speaker 1: threatened a former colleague at gunpoint.

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Speaker 2: All of this, we know, all examples of potential harm

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Speaker 2: to others, and yet we also know that Bandler has

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Speaker 2: helped thousands of people achieve transformations that they describe as amazing,

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Speaker 2: like revelatory. How is this possible? More than anything else,

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Speaker 2: we wanted to understand this paradox of Richard Bandler. It's

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Speaker 2: a paradox of human nature. A healer can also hurt people.

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Speaker 2: A flawed man can create good in the world, But

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Speaker 2: another part of the Bandler paradox haunts his creation. NLP.

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Speaker 2: NLP is a human technology built to better us to

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Speaker 2: harness and control our minds, and yet it is also

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Speaker 2: a form of dominance and manipulation, a way to gain

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Speaker 2: power over others.

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Speaker 1: No one could help us get to the bottom of

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Speaker 1: that contradiction better than Bandler himself. After a not insignificant

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Speaker 1: amount of back and forth, his people finally agreed to

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Speaker 1: a video call.

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Speaker 2: So I met him again on a remote call on

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Speaker 2: a recent Tuesday afternoon. He called in from his wood

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Speaker 2: paneled home office outside of Dallas, Texas. Oh, by the way,

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Speaker 2: is that one of your paintings behind you?

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Speaker 9: What?

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about over

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Speaker 4: my head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Bandler has taken up painting in his later year.

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Speaker 4: No, that's Vincent ben Go. Oh, it's a reproduction.

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Speaker 2: It was given to him by his gallerist though, who

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Speaker 2: incidentally also knows President Trump.

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Speaker 4: Do you know that picture that Trump has hanging over

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Speaker 4: his himself of himself with his fists up after they

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Speaker 4: tried to shoot him. He had that painted and gave

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Speaker 4: it to him and showed me a picture of him

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Speaker 4: giving him the painting.

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Speaker 2: Your gallerist gave a painting to Donald Trump had it painted.

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Speaker 2: After two years of reporting. I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: questions for Bandler, but we only had an hour. And

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Speaker 2: op is everywhere like it's it's it's people are doing

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Speaker 2: it all the time and not realizing it.

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Speaker 11: Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a model

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Speaker 4: of good communication. So of course you know it's going

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Speaker 4: to turn up all over the place. Plus it's being

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Speaker 4: taught under different names. You know. I started this, you know,

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Speaker 4: some fifty five years ago, and it spread all over

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Speaker 4: the planet. It's everywhere. You know, we have trainers in

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Speaker 4: almost every country, and you know, I'm translated into dozens

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Speaker 4: of languages, so it's as like you said, now, it's

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Speaker 4: pretty much everywhere. It may not be called that, but

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Speaker 4: it is.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that the name got changed or

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Speaker 2: that people are practicing it but not disclosing that it's NLP.

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Speaker 4: Money primarily money or ignorance one or the other, because

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Speaker 4: like corporations do that a lot because they don't want

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Speaker 4: to get sued. Not that I'm running around suing people.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to understand how some of the miraculous seeming

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Speaker 2: moments that we've heard about actually worked, So I asked

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Speaker 2: Bandler about one of the more intriguing tales from the

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Speaker 2: early days of NLP, where he and John Grinder supposedly

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Speaker 2: used NLP to fix a man's legs. We talked about

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Speaker 2: at this in episode two, and somehow he was able

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Speaker 2: to walk normally, like you re taught him how to walk,

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Speaker 2: correcting a physical disability. That story is incredible to me.

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Speaker 2: How did you do that?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not sure exactly which case you're talking about.

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Speaker 4: I've had a lot of those over the years. It's

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Speaker 4: just one of those byproducts of deep trance that sometimes

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Speaker 4: the brain and the plasticity of the brain is greater

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Speaker 4: than anything I know how to do. And that's why,

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Speaker 4: if you believe in people, you let their unconscious take over,

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Speaker 4: their natural healing takeover. So you know, miracles have abounded

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Speaker 4: in my fifty year career. So whereas you hear a

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Speaker 4: story like that, you're very impressed. I've seen it so

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Speaker 4: many times that I expect that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: I was hoping to build rapport by first asking Bandler

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Speaker 2: about some positive stories, and it was kind of working,

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Speaker 2: even though he said he never cured him self of

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Speaker 2: a stutter by watching John Wayne.

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Speaker 4: I don't have any recollection of imitating John Wayne. I

365
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Speaker 4: don't know where you're getting this stuff from.

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Speaker 2: We got that from a book called NLP Secrets Untold

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Speaker 2: Stories by Michael Hall, an NLP trainer who worked with Baandler.

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Speaker 2: Bandler did admit to doing a lot of accents.

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Speaker 4: You want talk like a Texan. You keep your teeth.

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Speaker 2: Close together, no mature right now.

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Speaker 4: I go to Texas and then I go to New York,

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Speaker 4: and I'll teach the New Yorkers to talk like a

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Speaker 4: Texan so that they can start to realize that these

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Speaker 4: things are not genetic. Taking control over the tone of

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Speaker 4: your voice means you can take control over the meaning

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Speaker 4: of your words. You can say no and mean yes.

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Speaker 4: You can go oh, sure, I'll go out with you.

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Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't mean you will, It means the opposite.

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Speaker 4: About eighty percent of the meaning of words is the tonality. So,

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Speaker 4: especially as a hypnotist, especially as an educator, you want

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Speaker 4: your tonality to match what you're saying so that you

382
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Speaker 4: can become convincing. It's part of being persuasive.

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Speaker 2: It turns out Badler did have a stutter, but not

384
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Speaker 2: as a child.

385
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Speaker 4: I got hit in the head and started stuttering. When

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Speaker 4: I was in my twenties. Somebody opened a van and

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Speaker 4: the whole door came off hit me in the head,

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Speaker 4: and I for some reason started stuttering, and I trained

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Speaker 4: myself not to do it. But wow, I did not

390
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Speaker 4: have a stutter as a child. That's just that's just

391
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Speaker 4: another one of the myriads of lies that people tell

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Speaker 4: about me.

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Speaker 2: Some of the lies and crazy stories about your life

394
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Speaker 2: come from you yourself, though, right.

395
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Speaker 4: I don't know that. Well, which lies and crazy stories

396
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Speaker 4: are you talking about?

397
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Speaker 2: Well, I've heard so many. I mean, there's the idea

398
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Speaker 2: that your you have a PhD in mathematics, that you

399
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Speaker 2: were a computer scientist. I don't think that's true.

400
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Speaker 4: What mathematics.

401
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Speaker 2: PhD in mathematics.

402
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 4: I didn't start that. I've never said I had a

403
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Speaker 4: PhD in mathematics.

404
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 2: So other people created these stories.

405
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Speaker 4: Well, I don't have a PhD in mathematics. I've never

406
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 4: claimed you I was a mathematician, but I didn't have

407
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Speaker 4: a PhD in mathematics. I have two doctors of letters.

408
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 4: I have a doctor in psychology. I have a master's

409
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Speaker 4: in psychology.

410
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Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, I think there's just so much storytelling.

411
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Speaker 2: And I think I noticed in one of the DVDs

412
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Speaker 2: I watched that it even said many things that doctor

413
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Speaker 2: Bandler will say in this DVD may not be true.

414
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Speaker 2: This is for the purposes of teaching. So there were

415
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Speaker 2: lots of stories that went around, right, and you became

416
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Speaker 2: really famous, so people started to say things about you.

417
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Speaker 4: Well, that happens. That doesn't mean I have to agree

418
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Speaker 4: with them.

419
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Speaker 1: But Badler makes stuff up about himself all the time.

420
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Speaker 1: According to one source, Bandlor has said he can hear radar,

421
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Speaker 1: and according to the publication Mother Jones. Bandler has claimed

422
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Speaker 1: that the CIA tested his methods for pain control by

423
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Speaker 1: impaling an agent's hand with an ice pick. Then there

424
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Speaker 1: was also that disclaimer in one of his DVDs, The

425
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Speaker 1: Art and Signs of Nested Loops. It begins with some

426
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Speaker 1: texts saying quote. Richard is well known for his many

427
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Speaker 1: irrelevant stories. They may or may not be factually accurate.

428
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Speaker 1: As Richard is demonstrating state elicitation and using these states

429
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Speaker 1: to impart other specific information to the participants.

430
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Speaker 2: Our interview started getting a little tense. It's a story

431
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Speaker 2: that I've heard multiple times about you kind of pulling

432
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Speaker 2: a gun on people in training to get them to change.

433
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Speaker 4: That's absolutely not true. Really, what absolutely not true. What

434
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 4: happened was is I had a cigarette lighter that looked

435
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Speaker 4: like a gun. It looked like a little derringer. And

436
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 4: somebody said to me in a seminar. They said, I said,

437
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Speaker 4: you know what would it take to get you to

438
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Speaker 4: change this? Because he had, you know, some horrible blue

439
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 4: that stopped him from being even decent to other people.

440
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 4: And he said the only thing that would change me

441
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 4: is if somebody pointed a gun towards my head. So

442
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Speaker 4: I pulled out the cigarette lighter and pointed it at him.

443
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Speaker 4: I lit a cigarette with it, and it's been blown

444
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Speaker 4: out of proportion over the years. It shocked him so much.

445
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Speaker 4: I put him in a trance and got him to

446
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: start changing his beliefs by putting new pictures in his head.

447
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: It wasn't the gun that did it, and it wasn't

448
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 4: even a gun.

449
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: That's wild because our sources for that story include major

450
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: publications and a former Banler associate.

451
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: What about like provocation or shocking people as therapy in general?

452
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 4: Though I don't think about it as therapy. I think

453
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: about it as education that you know, you're not there

454
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 4: to fix something, You're there to make people smarter. The

455
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 4: reason people get stuck is they're doing something stupid. You know,

456
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: if you keep making pictures of a bad memory and

457
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 4: feeling bad over and over and over over again, and

458
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 4: you know the more you do it, the worse it'll be.

459
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 4: Therapy tries to get you to relive trauma. I try

460
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 4: to get people to stop thinking about it so much,

461
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 4: and that's not going to occur psychologically, that's going to

462
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 4: occur neurologically. So my techniques focus on getting people to

463
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 4: make neurological changes so that they can take control of

464
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 4: their mind. If you change the way you think, it

465
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 4: changes how you feel and therefore changes what you're capable

466
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 4: of doing and capable of not doing.

467
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: That's super interesting. Yeah, I think when I said therapy,

468
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: maybe that's the wrong word. You don't consider what you

469
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: do therapy not at all.

470
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 4: Every single school of therapy has the same Freudian flaw

471
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: that started with Freud, which is that if you understand

472
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 4: how you got screwed up, that somehow or the magically

473
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 4: that insight will make it so you won't be And

474
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 4: people do not get smarter without new learning. And so

475
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 4: my focus is to get people to stop this and

476
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 4: start that. You create a void and fill it with

477
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 4: something that's more functional. Think smarter, Feel smarter, Do smarter.

478
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: When I asked Baandler about NLPs being the basis of nexium,

479
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: he claimed to have never heard of Nancy Salzman or nexiom.

480
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 4: The fact that somebody sat in a room where I

481
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 4: talked does not make me responsible for their stupidity.

482
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 2: But he had an interesting answer as to whether NLP

483
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: is inherently manipulative.

484
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 4: All of the verbal techniques and the things that I

485
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: teach have existed all along. People have been manipulating each

486
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 4: other for centuries, sometimes for the better and sometimes for

487
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 4: the worse. Manipulate just means to move from one place

488
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 4: to another on purpose.

489
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: It's the idea that all communication is manipulation. You might

490
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: as well get the upper hand with NLP.

491
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 4: You know, if you learn about this stuff, you can

492
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 4: defend yourself against it. And you know, cults have been

493
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 4: around since the beginning of time, and they're probably going

494
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 4: to be around till the end of time. Our ability

495
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,239
Speaker 4: to be smarter requires that we get educated. And the

496
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 4: more I educate people, the more they can defend themselves

497
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 4: against manipulation. People have been manipulating without knowing NLP for

498
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: a long long time. The fact that somebody learns NLP

499
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 4: and refines their skills a little bit is not my fault.

500
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 4: Right There are people that misuse guns and shovels and

501
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: everything else, and you know, people are constantly bringing it

502
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 4: up like that's the important part. The important part is

503
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: I've created a body of knowledge by which people can

504
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 4: get smarter and have better lives.

505
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 2: This point has been made by people we've interviewed on

506
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: this podcast. Before any tool, any technology can become a weapon,

507
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 2: so why single out NLP. It's a fair defense to

508
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: a point. Bandler certainly isn't responsible for nexium, But I

509
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: also think the fact that NLP is beloved by shady

510
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: characters isn't a random coincidence. Bandler marketed his tools to

511
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: people focused much more on power than on ethics, and

512
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: he never wanted to play by the rules of science.

513
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: If you google NLP, you mostly find academics and people

514
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: calling it a quote pseudoscience, So I'm curious how you

515
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: feel about that.

516
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 4: Well, name calling doesn't seem to me to be very scientific.

517
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: Bandler went on to tell me something pretty interesting. He

518
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: said that hypnosis is a word that encompasses thousands of

519
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: different altered states. Trance is different for different people, and

520
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: it's tough to study. He said that he straight up

521
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: told the National Academy of Sciences, who were critical of

522
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: NLP to get lost.

523
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 4: And they told me, if I didn't develop anything new

524
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 4: for the next five years, they could do studies and

525
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 4: prove that NLP was of science. And I looked at

526
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 4: them and I said, it's not art form, and I

527
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 4: think of it that way, and to me, it's an

528
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 4: art form. I'm not interested in doing double blind studies

529
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 4: by the criterion set up by scientists, because most of

530
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 4: the science I read to tell you the truth is

531
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: not science as I would determine it.

532
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: I ask the artist about one of my favorite techniques

533
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: of his state control, which I found really helpful leading

534
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: up to the birth of my child. So the idea

535
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: that you can anchor a different emotional state in order

536
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: to sort of choose your reaction to your reality instead

537
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: of having a automatic reaction of anxiety. Right, And so

538
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: I was wondering about your own experience using state control.

539
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: Is this something that you've used in your life.

540
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 4: To me, freedom is absolutely everything, and freedom comes from

541
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: having choice, and if you don't have a choice, then

542
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: you're not a free person. And when my first wife died,

543
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 4: you know, I felt very very bad, but I still

544
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: had to go teach seminars and do things. You know,

545
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: I you know, I was under contract. I had literally

546
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: no choice about that, And so I could have either

547
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 4: gone in and been an asshole, or I could go

548
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 4: into the best state that I can go into. There

549
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: are some things in this world you can control and

550
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: some things in the world that you just can't. And

551
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: you know, The question is how are you going to

552
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 4: respond in the moment. And you're either looking forward or

553
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: you're bathing yourself in the past. And if things are

554
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: good in the past, a good thing to bathe yourself.

555
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 4: And that the future requires planning. You have to think

556
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 4: your way into a new future. And if you don't

557
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: plan a new future, you won't have one. And that's

558
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 4: a daily event, not a yearly event.

559
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: Is there a burden to have to always be so

560
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: carefully controlling your emotions.

561
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: Well, it just becomes second nature. You know that if

562
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: there's a variety of choices, you know, you move in

563
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: the direction that propels you forward. You know it's not

564
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: that bad shit isn't going to happen to you. Take

565
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 4: it from me. You know I've been alive a long time,

566
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: and you know that's not the only bad thing. Bad

567
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 4: stuff happens. You know, all the same things that frustrate everybody.

568
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 4: You're going to come and frustrate me. Question is how

569
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 4: long you can stay there? And if you develop in

570
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 4: yourself programs to make better decisions, then you don't have

571
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 4: to suffer as much. And that's simply a time efficient thing.

572
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 4: And it's not a burden to be free. It's it's

573
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 4: just the opposite. It doesn't mean that you don't remember

574
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 4: what happens. It means that you don't dwell on it

575
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: and blow it out of proportion. As people say, you

576
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: don't take little bad pictures, make them big. You shrink

577
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 4: bad pictures down, and if it happens at the speed

578
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 4: of light, you barely notice you're doing it.

579
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 2: I think some people would wonder if they're repressing these

580
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: bad feelings by immediately moving past them.

581
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: Really, it sounds very psychological.

582
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: You're saying that sounds like what the psychotherapist would say.

583
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, they stay in business.

584
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: I got you, I got you, ma'am. Guys, sure hate shrinks.

585
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: It's pretty much the most consistent thing about him. But

586
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: as he was telling this story about his first wife dying,

587
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: which is obviously tragic, I couldn't help but wonder what

588
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: exactly he was talking about, because his first wife or

589
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: ex wife, is alive. Her name is Leslie Cameron. She

590
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: didn't want to give an interview for our podcast, perhaps

591
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: because of how her marriage with Bandler ended.

592
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 4: Well, I was married for us period of time to

593
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 4: somebody who just didn't work out at all.

594
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: Later in our interview, Leslie came up again. You mentioned

595
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: your marriage to Leslie Cameron. That was very short, you did.

596
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: That's right, We've discussed it, right.

597
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: So you mentioned it, and I said, I don't count it.

598
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: We've heard allegations that you perpetrated domestic violence against Leslie as.

599
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 4: Well as also a lie that she perpetrated so that

600
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: she could get a lot of money out of a divorce.

601
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: She married me and got me, you know, and she

602
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: asked me to marry her specifically to help her get

603
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: custody of her kids, and then proceeded to engage in

604
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 4: all kinds of behaviors that made it so I just

605
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 4: didn't want to be with her anymore. And she turned

606
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 4: that divorce into a gold mine. Was she had was

607
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 4: part of the business, and she tried to get the

608
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: house which I had owned before we married, and all

609
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff. Eventually took a bunch of money and

610
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 4: went off with some other guy in the marine. But

611
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 4: why we're talking about this now is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

612
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 2: Well, we heard that you happened.

613
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 4: I have I've never had any domestic violence against her.

614
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 4: She excused me of strangling or and forcing her to

615
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: sign a divorce settlement, and basically what I did was

616
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 4: keep her out of jail because she beat up Robert

617
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 4: Dilton's secretary.

618
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: Thank you for explaining that, and I'm so sorry that

619
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: I know this is a topic that isn't so fun

620
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: to discuss, but it is infortient for us to discuss this.

621
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 4: It's also it's not an interview about NLP. This is

622
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 4: what we referred to as a hit job. And I

623
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 4: find this very fucking offensive, very offensive. You asked to

624
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 4: interview me about NLP and then you start accusing me

625
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 4: of domestic violence and people with guns, all this rumor bullshit.

626
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 4: You know, are you just trying to get your ratings up?

627
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 4: What the hell's wrong with you?

628
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: Well, Richard, for someone who, Wow, Richard, I was going

629
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: to say that, for someone who says they're so good

630
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: at emotional control, you would think that he would be

631
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: able to calmly respond to questions from a journalist.

632
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: Right, This, to be clear, is standard journalistic protocol. You

633
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: kind of need to give people the opportunity to respond

634
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: to the allegations that have been made against them. You

635
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: were just doing your job.

636
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like he probably is not surrounded by

637
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: anyone who's critical of him and hasn't been for many decades,

638
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: and anyone who questioned him probably left the inner circle.

639
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: And the way he responds, I mean, frankly, I had

640
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: a lot of other questions for him, and even get

641
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: to them.

642
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: Before he abruptly hung up on you.

643
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like this was the start of my fact check,

644
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 2: not the end.

645
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: So much for state control.

646
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: Part of me had a hunch Bandler would have an outburst.

647
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: It's the paradox of Richard Bandler.

648
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: For the record, I asked Robert Diltz whether he remembers

649
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: Leslie physically assaulting his secretary. He said he didn't have

650
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: a secretary and was quote mystified by These comments and

651
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: Leslie's claims that she was a victim of domestic violence

652
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: were reported by journalists from Mother Jones and San Jose

653
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: Mercury News, who cited court and police records. While some

654
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: will claim that Bandler's private affairs with an ex wife

655
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: are not relevant to his public work, aggression has been

656
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: a theme of both Bandler's public and private lives. You

657
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: may recall this tape we played earlier in the series,

658
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: in which Bandler speaks freely about domestic violence in one

659
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: of his seminars. The DVD set is from nineteen eighty

660
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: seven and called Creating Therapeutic Change.

661
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 5: I did a thing for or a shelter for abused women,

662
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 5: and you know, I was in near five minutes and

663
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 5: I felt like slapping the shit out of him.

664
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 6: You know.

665
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 5: It was like, change your tone of voice, man, you

666
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 5: want me to help you shut up, or I'll smack

667
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 5: your one.

668
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 4: And I mean it was they had the horrid tonality.

669
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 5: I mean it was like, you know, five dental drills

670
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 5: coming at you at one time, you know, And I

671
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 5: really had to teach them. Look, if this is the

672
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 5: way you want men to treat you, keep talking this way.

673
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: Bandler didn't respond to a request for comment about this tape.

674
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 1: I spoke with lawyer Phil Burkhardt, who represented Bandlor's former

675
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: secretary of Beverly Duda, in a case she filed against

676
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: her old boss. Beverly began working for Bandler in nineteen

677
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: eighty six. She helped him organize and promote his NLP

678
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: seminars and claimed he had promised her a financial cut

679
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: of those events, but he never paid up. Beverly took

680
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: Bandlor to court in nineteen ninety three to get those

681
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: back payments, but she also made a more serious claim.

682
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 12: The last claim there is what's called a national affliction

683
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 12: of emotional distress, which includes threats, including threats on her life.

684
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: What were those threats?

685
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 12: That he would kill her? To use her words, he

686
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 12: put his hand down her throat and rip her herd out.

687
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 12: He's intending to inflict emotional distress on her. Whether he

688
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 12: intended to carry out the threats or not is not

689
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 12: the question.

690
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: The jury was convinced. The judge ordered Baandlor to pay

691
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: Beverly nearly five hundred thousand dollars in combined damages and

692
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: back payments, but Bandler didn't pay. Phil foreclosed on Bandlor's

693
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: property in San Francisco, but it didn't cover the debt,

694
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: which eventually exceeded one million dollars as interest piled up

695
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: year after year. They eventually settled decades later. A few

696
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: years after Phil first met Beverly, another Bandler associate, Christina Hall,

697
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: came to him for help.

698
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: About Christina Hall in episode six, She's the Bandler colleague

699
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: who he admitted to threatening with a gun in his

700
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: trial testimony.

701
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: And in nineteen ninety seven, Bandler filed a lawsuit against her,

702
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: as well as several other prominent NLP trainers and two

703
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: hundred John and Jane Does, claiming unfair trade practices and

704
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: misappropriation of intellectual property. Bandler was demanding tens of millions

705
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: in damages. The whole case boiled down to a single question,

706
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: who owns NLP.

707
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 12: Banner's position was all rights in NLP flowed through Bandler,

708
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 12: and that if you wanted to use the term NLP

709
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 12: neurolinguistic programming, if you wanted to say you remember of

710
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 12: the society, if you wanted to certify people to say

711
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 12: they could be practitioners, you wanted to teach this, you

712
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 12: wanted to do anything you know, pay him as the

713
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 12: lord of the manner he gets a cut of year work.

714
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 1: Christina and various other NLP trainers had bought the rights

715
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: to the Society of NLP part of Bandlard's old company

716
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: during a liquidation sale in nineteen eighty three. Bandler had

717
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: filed for bankruptcy and was selling off assets, so naturally,

718
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: Christina thought bandler suit was BS and countersuit. Bandler reportedly

719
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: tried to use NLP in court.

720
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 12: At least according to these NLP folks, was trying to

721
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 12: use NLP on the judge by doing a thing that

722
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 12: they would call modeling.

723
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: Modeling or maybe mirroring an NLP tactic designed to build rapport.

724
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 1: By mimicking people you want to persuade ma theorius.

725
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 12: He had picked up on certain gestures that the judge

726
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 12: had brother. It was like putting his hand to his

727
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 12: head or to his chin. I don't remember what the

728
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 12: gestures were.

729
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 6: But he was able.

730
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 12: Look, Bandler is doing what the judge is doing.

731
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: Whatever he was doing, it didn't work. The court ruled

732
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: overwhelming in Christina Hall's favor. She won a judgment of

733
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: six hundred thousand dollars. We couldn't reach Christina for an interview,

734
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: but Phil, her lawyer, called her a quote true believer

735
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: in NLP. He said she never cared about the money.

736
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: Hokey as that might sound, She just wanted to be

737
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: able to practice NLP in peace.

738
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: Bandlor didn't respond when we asked about this. It's so

739
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: interesting to me that Christina was so invested in NLP,

740
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: even after Bandler treated her so poorly over the years,

741
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 2: from threatening her with a gun to trying to sue

742
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: her at a business.

743
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: Exactly even though Badlor had done all those things, She said,

744
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: she thought NLP had advanced human consciousness. She used that

745
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: phrase in a love letter to NLP. It was the

746
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: conclusion of a summary of the whole legal ordeal she

747
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: wrote for the wider NLP community, asking them to stick together.

748
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: It sounds like she was able to separate the art

749
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: from the artist.

750
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: Maybe we're not so different and exactly hate the conference

751
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: in London elis.

752
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, true. I mean the most powerful parts for me

753
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: were the self guided, peer to peer portions where you

754
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: don't need a guru or a teacher.

755
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: That's kind of the conclusion My mom came to as well.

756
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: Hi Mom, thank you for doing again.

757
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: You remember Zoe's mom Lynn right, I tried to use

758
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: NLP techniques to help get her back on a bicycle.

759
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: I've been thinking a lot about the whole experience and

760
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 3: what it has and has not done for me, and

761
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: I'm profoundly grateful to both of you for including me

762
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 3: in this because it's been a journey, so to speak.

763
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: She took the visualization techniques Alice taught her and began

764
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: coming up with her own images. She began to imagine

765
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: her fear of biking as this kind of barnacled incrustacean

766
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: covering her back.

767
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: I think one of the major strength of NLP is

768
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: that it helps you separate yourself from whatever.

769
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: It is if you want to work with my mom said.

770
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: She realized the bike had become a metaphor for aging,

771
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: for diminishing. Alice helped her tease them apart, and this

772
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: barnacled carapace began to crumble away.

773
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: After listening to Alice's tape, I started being able to

774
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 3: detach myself from the fear. It gave me a path,

775
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: It gave me options. I could sort of choose something

776
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: personal that worked for me.

777
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: I saw it working. My mom and I went on

778
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: a twenty one mile bike ride last summer.

779
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: What yeah, you did not tell me it was twenty

780
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: one miles.

781
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god. It was gorgeous. We biked along the

782
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: seashore and through the scrubby New England woods and Saltwater marshes.

783
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: It was a real trip. It wasn't just around the block.

784
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: I had no idea.

785
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: Well, what's crazy is that we had tried the exact

786
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: same path before Alice and my mom was terrified the

787
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: whole time. This time was different, which was striking to

788
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: me because my mom had originally been really turned off

789
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: by NLP. When the supposedly quick fix didn't work so

790
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: quickly for her, she felt like a failure and like

791
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: NLP was a scam. I'm curious if you could tell

792
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: us what happened. What was that shift.

793
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 3: In the beginning, it made me angry. Vandler's little swishy

794
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: technique or switching images made me feel like it was

795
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: blamed the victim, and then it was also too formulaic.

796
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 11: But what I saw after that, as I got deeper,

797
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 11: was that it was very powerful in making you realize

798
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 11: you had options that you weren't your fear, that it

799
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 11: didn't trivialize what you were feeling.

800
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 9: It was very powerful.

801
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: It just changed everything. Yeah, it gave me myself back

802
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 3: in a way.

803
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: When I was working with your mom, I honestly had

804
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: no idea that this would work. I'm kind of amazed

805
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: that she got so much out of it.

806
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: Me too, and honestly, thank you, Alice. I love that

807
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: I get to bike with her now and it's not

808
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: a big deal.

809
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: I do want to note that I didn't follow NLP

810
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: books by the letter. I did read them. My favorite

811
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: Bibandler was this one called using your Brain for a Change,

812
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 2: So I sort of took what it said as an

813
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: inspiration and made my own version that was tailored to

814
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: your mom And then I used a lot of stuff

815
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: from this other book. What other book? Okay, it's sort

816
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 2: of a fringe NLP text that I found for a

817
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: free download on this anarchist pdf share.

818
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: I don't even want to know what corner of the

819
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: Internet you were plunging into when you stumbled upon this

820
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: Dallas Anarchist pdf share.

821
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so google this book. It's called Visual Magic

822
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: with a CNAKA, and it's sick. It's NLP through the

823
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: lens of magic, which is a practice I don't have

824
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: a stake or experience in, but it basically presents magic

825
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: as a metaphor for the power of your imagination and

826
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: unconscious So there's a lot of cool exercises in it.

827
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 6: Check it out.

828
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: I think that's ultimately what we've come to love about NLP.

829
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: It's endlessly flexible. That's why it's outlasted a lot of

830
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: other New Age therapies, and despite Richard Bandler's efforts to

831
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: control NLP, that's why it's gonna outlast him too.

832
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna keep using it.

833
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.

834
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

835
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: The series is created and hosted by me Alice Hines

836
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 2: and Zoe Lescas. It's produced by writer Alsop and Dara Loukpotts,

837
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: edited by Kate Osborne, Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan.

838
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone, fact checking by

839
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: Aman Waylan from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers are Oswaloshan, Mangeshatikador

840
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina

841
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: Norble and Nikki Etor