1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: I am six forty. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 2: You're listening to the John and Ken Show on demand 3 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app. We're live in the radio from 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 2: one until four and after four o'clock. 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: What'd you miss? High? 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: If you miss something, you go to the podcast Johnny 7 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: Cannon demand on the iHeart app. 8 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: All right, Well, the unibomber is dead. 9 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: He apparently killed himself in a federal medical type prison 10 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 3: back east at the age of eighty one. Between nineteen 11 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 3: seventy eight and nineteen ninety five, someone was mailing bombs 12 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 3: to people around the country. When they finally caught up 13 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 3: with them, he was identified as Ted Kaczinski, the man 14 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: who lived in a sparse cabin in Montana, and of 15 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: course the motivation was allegedly his hatred of the modern 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 3: world and technology. Three people were killed, twenty three others 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 3: were wounded. He was serving eight life sentences for these bombs. 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 3: He died, and then we learned about a day later 19 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 3: that suicide eighty one years old. At first I thought 20 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: it might be natural causes, because they had transferred him 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: from a federal prison in Colorado to like a medical 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: federal medical facility, and I thought maybe because he was 23 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: going downhill but they're now saying, well, he killed himself. 24 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: He had late stage cancer. Okay, well maybe that's why 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: he killed himself. 26 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: And he sent the bombs to either university professors or 27 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: airline executives. 28 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: And I just learned hence the name unibomber, that's right 29 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 3: for university airlines. Yeah, so we're going to talk now 30 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 3: with Jonathan Epstein. Yes, we're going to talk with Jonathan Epstein. 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 3: His father was one of the victims. His father did 32 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 3: survive the bombing, but it was atrocious. His father was 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: doctor Charles Epstein, University of California at San Francisco, geneticist. 34 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: All right, let's get Jonathan Epstein on. Jonathan, thanks for 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: coming on with. 36 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 4: Us, Thanks for having me. 37 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 38 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: One of the things I just read in the story 39 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 3: about you, Jonathan is you were hoping that that was 40 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 3: your last interview you were going to do about this, 41 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: but you agreed to come on our show. 42 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: We appreciate that. Thank you for doing that. 43 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, that statement was a little premature, perhaps. 44 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean there's been interest in this for 45 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: almost thirty years now. Ever since the world became aware 46 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: of the unibomber, and actually his bombings go back wide 47 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: about forty five years, so you've been living with this, 48 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: you know, a big percentage of your life. Did you 49 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: have a particular reaction when you heard he was dead? 50 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess you know, I was initially 51 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 4: felt glad about the news. It's not great when anyone 52 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 4: dies in general, but you know, my hope was and 53 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 4: what prompts are My statement about interviews is that we 54 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 4: brought we'd finally be able to put this chapter of 55 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 4: our lives to a close. It's you know, it's been 56 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 4: a while, it's been thirty years. My father was the 57 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 4: age I am now when this happened. 58 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and let's talk about that. And your father, of 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: course has since asked away, but he did survive this bombing. 60 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: What did he do at UCSF? 61 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 4: So my father was head of human genetics. He started 62 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 4: out his career bringing healthcare out to rural areas, in 63 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 4: particular the NEOs andesis procedure, which was new at the time, 64 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 4: but he ended up developing a specialty in down syndrome 65 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: and really trying to understand how having an extra chromosome 66 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 4: manifested the way it did, and as part of that, 67 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 4: instituted the first people that did genetic counseling who helped 68 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 4: parents that had or we would potentially have children that 69 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: had not the normal set of chromosomes and helped them 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 4: get through that experience. 71 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: It sounds like it was doing remarkable research. The unifomber 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: picking out your father, I mean it puzzles you too. 73 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I think you know he was He was mentioned, 74 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 4: and my father was you know, used a lot as 75 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 4: a source, and so he was quoted in a New 76 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 4: York Times story. I'm not sure what that story it was. 77 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 4: It might have been about genetic engineering, which was something 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 4: very new that he had nothing to do with this. 79 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 4: So we always felt that, you know, since he hadn't 80 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 4: done his homework, if he was trying to achieve the 81 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 4: objectives he had stated in his benifesto, he picked a 82 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 4: guy that was focused on doing good with science and 83 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 4: also bringing the benefits of science and technology to you know, 84 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 4: the full population, not just the elites. 85 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: What happened to your dad the day he got this bomb? 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, so he was alone at home. I think my 87 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 4: sister had brought in the package and he opened it 88 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 4: up and it blew up. The bomb was designed to Maine, 89 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: not kill, for which we're you know fortunate it relatively. 90 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 4: I guess he had thick glasses on, so it'd probably 91 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 4: say his eyesight. He lost fingers, he had a lot 92 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 4: of internal injuries essentially opened it kind of waste level 93 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 4: he and you know this by backing the blood trail. 94 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 4: He stumbled out of the kitchen, but it went the 95 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 4: wrong way and then went out of the front door 96 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 4: of the house, fell down in our driveway, and the 97 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 4: neighbors had heard the blast, and they came and. 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: Did he have the Did he have long term health 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: problems because of the blast? Outside of the missing fingers, I. 100 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 4: Think, well, he lost some of his hearing. He had 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 4: a lot of pain from the internal injuries over time, 102 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 4: but I do feel that over and you know, it 103 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 4: took years to get his hands back in shape. But 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: you know, by the end of his life, I think 105 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 4: he was you know, other than missing some hearing and 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 4: of having some fingers, which isn't great when you're a cellist, 107 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 4: you know, he was able to wear a full atte. 108 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: Now were you were you and your family aware of 109 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: the unibomber, I mean the attack on your father happened 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: a bit late in his bombing history. Nineteen ninety three 111 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 3: and he was arrested a couple of years later. Were 112 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: you were you aware of him being out there? 113 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 4: I was not. I never heard of the guy before, 114 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 4: and my father was the first in what became the 115 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 4: new string of bombing, so it really had no historical context. 116 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 4: Had never heard of that name until the FBI came 117 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 4: calling to the house and included us in that this 118 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 4: might be. 119 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: The Yeah, he took some time off, Kazinski did from 120 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: doing this, as I recall, and then there was a 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 3: string of them later before they caught up and arrested him. 122 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 4: That's right. 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: Did you read his manifesto because that that consumed the 124 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: whole nation when it was published published in New York Times, 125 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: I think, and that's what led to his capture. 126 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. He had a distinctive writing style, to say the least. 127 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 4: I've read some of it. I have not read the 128 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 4: full manifesto. 129 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: How did your father feel about, you know, catching Kazinsky 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: and the punishment and all that. 131 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: I never really got my father's viewpoint on it. Obviously 132 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 4: they were glad he caught him, because then they caught Kazinsky. 133 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 4: My mother was, you know, very obviously and rightfully upset 134 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: and angry about the whole thing, and she was upset 135 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 4: that he pleaded out. She wanted him to be confronted 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 4: in court by you know, the results of his actions 137 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 4: and felt the tepee each way out as he may 138 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 4: have just done so by committing suicide. 139 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, we appreciate you talking about your dad. I see 140 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: here also in the story we're looking at that you 141 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: don't want your father to be remembered does a uniform 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: or victim. You want to be remembered for what he 143 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: did for science. 144 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, there was always this kind of dual edge sword. 145 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 4: I think, you know, it was hard for him not 146 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 4: to be identified in that way because he was a 147 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,679 Speaker 4: victim and it was a pretty small group of people 148 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 4: and he was fortunate to survive. But my father was 149 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 4: very you know, one of the top gen edfors in 150 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 4: the country. He went on to be the initial scientific 151 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 4: advisor and later the chairman of the Layer Testees for 152 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 4: the Buck Institute, which is a leading institute focused on 153 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 4: age research or aging research and why by getting old 154 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 4: does what it does to us because there was a 155 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: connection between down syndrome and aging, and so, yeah, he 156 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,479 Speaker 4: was very accomplished. He had more than five hundred scientific 157 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 4: papers to his name, and you know, ultimately that in 158 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 4: the books he wrote on medicine that we hope will 159 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 4: be his legacy, and. 160 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: He was he able to continue a lot of his 161 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: work after the bombing. 162 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: He did after a while, after you know a couple 163 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: of years of recuperating, he went back to his lab 164 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 4: and he actually was able to play the tello again, 165 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 4: you know, on a personal life basis. They hit special 166 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 4: bows for him that he could hold despite his missing appendages. 167 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 4: But yeah, he went full long into research and if anything, 168 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 4: you know, he when this happened, he was fifty nine 169 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 4: my age, and was that a point in his career 170 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 4: where he's, you know, kind of wondering, Hey, what's it's 171 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 4: all been for? When the the one that's silver lining 172 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 4: that's even a real thing in this case of the incident, 173 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 4: was that he got thousands of letters from people whose 174 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: lives he had positively impacted by his work in genetics 175 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 4: and genetic counseling. And I think that field him to 176 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 4: do you know, another ten years. 177 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and most people never get that, nothing even close 178 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: to it. Well, listen, thank you very much for coming 179 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: on with us and talking about your father and talking 180 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: about that terrible time people shouldn't forget, you know, the 181 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 2: victims in these cases. Jonathan Epstein, he's the son of 182 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: the UC San Francisco geneticist, doctor Charles Epstein, one of 183 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: the unibomber victims. He survived the mail bomb and exploded. 184 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: Just a geneticist who was doing great work on down syndrome. 185 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: And that's why the wild crazy guy Kazinski sometimes didn't 186 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: Obviously what he was doing was wild and crazy, but 187 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: even picking some of his victims just seemed really remarkably weird. 188 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: You know, there's a there's a TV reporter quoted in 189 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: his story covered the court case at the time, and 190 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: he would look at us sitting there and nod and smile, 191 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: almost like we were going to. 192 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: Have coffee with him that day. 193 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: He was just, you know, he was extremely mentally ill 194 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 2: with this bizarre obsession. 195 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 3: We got a little bit more coming up next on Kazinski. 196 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 3: He was at one time the sort of a professor 197 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 3: at UC Berkeley, and his students, most of them didn't 198 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: remember him because he didn't like to talk to people. Obviously, 199 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: he hated humanity. 200 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: So we'll talk a. 201 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: Little bit more coming Upjohnny KENKFI AM six forty Live 202 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: everywhere the iHeartRadio app. 203 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 5: You're listening to John and Ken on demand from KFI 204 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 5: Am six forty. 205 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: We're on the radio one till four after four o'clock. 206 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: W'ed you miss Go to the iHeart app for the 207 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: Johnny Kent podcast and you know, one adge to the other. 208 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: You do the radio show. Whatever you missed, you do 209 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: the podcast. All right, Well, the UNI bomber is dead. 210 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: He apparently killed himself in a federal medical type prison 211 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: back east at the age of eighty one. John said 212 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: what he had late stage cancer of some kind. 213 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 214 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: Ted Kaczynski came from Chicago, but he does have ties 215 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: to the West Coast. It was obviously a math whiz, 216 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: and he got a scholarship at Harvard. At sixteen, he 217 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: went to Harvard and then from there he moved to 218 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 3: the University of Michigan in for a advanced degree in math, 219 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: and then in nineteen sixty two he eventually landed as 220 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: an assistant math professor at. 221 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: U SEE Berkeley. 222 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 3: He was just twenty five years old and on a 223 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: tenure track already. Now you had mentioned earlier that one 224 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,239 Speaker 3: of the reasons they were able to nab the unibomber 225 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: Ted Kaczinski is because the New York Times published his manifesto. 226 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 3: It was his brother, David Kazinski, who recognized the work 227 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: of his own brother and basically turned him in, and 228 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: that's how they tracked ted Kaczinski down and arrested him. 229 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: Back then, there's a few memories that people came up with, 230 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: But when he was a math professor at you see, Berkeley, 231 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: a lot of people could not remember him because he 232 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 3: was antisocial. He didn't really want to relate to people 233 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: or to anyone else. In fact, the guy that ran 234 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: to the department at the time had no recollection of 235 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 3: Kazinsky being. 236 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: A professor there. He was just very withdrawn. 237 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: He lived in a cottage kind a main residence in 238 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 3: a quite residential neighborhood. 239 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: And pretty much kept to himself. 240 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: Even students complained he would not answer questions. 241 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: He just read out of the text book. 242 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: Imagine a profession that doesn't answer questions and the ideas 243 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: for you know, students very inquisitive and to really ask 244 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,479 Speaker 3: you a bunch of questions. 245 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: To further their learning. It's like I didn't want to 246 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: answer a question. 247 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: Now that I've had three sons go through college, you 248 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: have no idea how many freaks are college professors. 249 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, like out and out weirdos. 250 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: And because I've seen some videos of them teaching, I've 251 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 2: heard the stories, and these are a lot of maladjusted 252 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: social outcasts who really could not exist in the real world. 253 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: But they have their one little genius niche that they 254 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: are obsessed with and they can put pontificate on. But 255 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: now that that that whole world is scary, it really is. 256 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: And Kazinski is one of the scary ones. The thing 257 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: that was most fascinating. And I remember I remember reading 258 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: a book on Kazinsky and this popped out in one 259 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: of the news stories this weekend. 260 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: When he was. 261 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: I guess at Harvard, he was part of a psychological 262 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: experiment run by a professor, Henry Murray. Murray was later 263 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: accused of running what amounted to a cruel human experiment 264 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: on young adults. His goal was to subject them to 265 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: extreme stress to see how people responded to trauma. So 266 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: Kazinsky spent two hundred hours in the experiment absorbing all 267 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: this verbal abuse. The verbal abuse focused on each subject's 268 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: weaknesses and triggers, and then you'd have to watch yourself 269 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: being berated and he spent two hundred hours. I don't 270 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: know if that had any effect on his behavior, gave 271 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: him some kind of a breakdown. I mean, I mean, 272 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: there's a great example. Who the hell would think of 273 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: that and then and then carry it out. He eventually leaves. 274 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: Berkeley and he moves back home with his parents for 275 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: a while in Illinois. But as we now know, he 276 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: ended up in a cabin in Montana, and that's where 277 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: they caught him. 278 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six. 279 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: He struck California several times with bombs. In fact, they 280 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: did think he had some kind of ties to UC 281 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: Berkeley because there were two bombs detonated in a place 282 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: called Corey Hall at Berkeley, the only location the UNI 283 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 3: bomber hit twice, and one of them was an electrical 284 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: engineering professor who in nineteen eighty two picked up an 285 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: item looked like a tool in the brake room. It 286 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 3: was a pipe bomb. He got wounded in the face 287 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 3: with shrapnel. He did recover, and then May of eighty five, 288 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: a graduate student went to open a package left in 289 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: the computer lab that caused severe damage to the man's 290 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 3: hand and arm. So during nineteen seventy eight nineteen ninety five. 291 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: Kazinski targeted California four times, twice at Corey Hall and 292 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: twice and Sacramento, killing a computer store owner and a 293 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 3: timber industry lobbyist. You can really see it was really 294 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: all over the place with his targets a. 295 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: Computer store owner. I mean really not. 296 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: That any of this is right, but it's like the 297 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: bizarre and madness that overtook him. 298 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. He lived in a cabin. It was ten feet 299 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: by fourteen feet. 300 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: Fi flywood and tar paper. 301 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, filled with journals, a diary written in code, 302 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: explosive ingredients to bombs. And he hated that people thought 303 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: he was mentally ill, and he refused to let his 304 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: lawyers defend him with an insanity defense. He eventually pleaded 305 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: guilty rather than lead insanity. 306 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 3: Because with his philosophical take on what was happening to 307 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: the world, he's not insane. 308 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: We are. Yeah, he thought he was right. 309 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: He thought technology was destroying the world yeap, and destroying humanity. 310 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: There was another story I read. He was corresponding with 311 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 3: a man who wrote books. There were travel books or something, 312 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: but he asked a lot of questions about where can 313 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: he find the most remote place? 314 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: You know, Ultimately that's what he want. 315 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 3: It wasn't didn't his brother also live like in a 316 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 3: ditch for a while, bunker He lived, yes, underground in 317 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 3: a bunker with a storm door as his roof, and 318 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: he would pop open the storm door to to climb out. 319 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 3: And he was living there at the same time that 320 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: his brother is living in a cabin in Montana, Antana. 321 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: Right. 322 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so ah, that's score one for gen X and 323 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: running in the family Polish immigrant parents. 324 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: The answer was three. 325 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 3: Three people picked the unibomber to die in the John 326 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: and Ken twenty twenty three gouples people. About three people 327 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: did remember that he was out there and he could 328 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: die this year, and he did more coming up Johnny 329 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: Ken KFI AM six forty Live Everywhere the iHeartRadio app. 330 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 5: You're listening to John and Ken on demand from KFI 331 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 5: AM sixty. 332 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 3: How scary was that on Saturday with reports that there 333 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 3: might be a. 334 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: Coup going on in Russia? Crazy. I was looking for John. 335 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: He's still not in I think he's in the bunker. 336 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: I know he's hiding. I was thinking about joining him. 337 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Oh you were, I thought you didn't want to go 338 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: anywhere near that bunker. 339 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: Well, what if Putin goes scorched earth and just decides 340 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 3: to unleash all the nukes everywhere. 341 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I know, it's terrifying. 342 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 3: Because he's about to go down in this coup. It 343 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 3: was over in a matter of hours, if you really 344 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 3: believe the entire story, because you know information you get 345 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 3: from that part of the world, even Ukraine. 346 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: Who knows what exactly to believe. 347 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: But this is all about this mercenary army called Wagner 348 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: Group led by a commander. His name is Yevgeny Progosen, 349 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: and they were marching towards Moscow, and everyone believed that 350 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 3: the idea was to take out the government and Putin. 351 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 3: And then hours later we learned no, it's over and 352 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 3: some sort of deal was reached and he's out. 353 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: Of the country. 354 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 3: Progosion supposedly in Belarus is where he's been exiled too. 355 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 3: Whether or not he lives very long. But I've heard 356 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 3: everything from you know, this could be the end of Putin, 357 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 3: this could be the end of Progoson, or this whole 358 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: thing was orchestrated. Let's talk about all this right now 359 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 3: with our guest, Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis, retired from the 360 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: US military, A senior fellow and military expert with Defense 361 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: Priorities Defense Priorities dot org. 362 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to the John and Ken Show. 363 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 6: Hey, thanks for having me. 364 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 4: I appreciate being here. 365 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: Sure, first explain to our listeners what the heck is 366 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: what the Wagner Group. 367 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 6: Well, what the Vaguer Group is is what it's called 368 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 6: a professional military company. There's really no analog in the 369 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 6: US to relate it to. It's not like a trip 370 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 6: traditional mercenary group because it's Russian spoting for Russia. But 371 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 6: instead of fighting under the command of the Ministry of Defense, 372 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 6: they were hired separately and paid by the Ministry of Defense, 373 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 6: equipped by the Ministry of Defense. But they conducted their 374 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 6: operations as they saw fit. And that's actually the reason 375 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 6: why they were have been uniformly and uniquely effective on 376 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 6: the battlefield, more so than the rest of the Russian 377 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 6: Army because they fought differently and they're organized differently. But 378 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 6: that uh, success has come at a cost, I think 379 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 6: because they Pregosian that you just mentioned there, I think 380 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 6: started thinking he was bulletproof and started kind of acting 381 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 6: crazy towards putin. 382 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were reports that he actually wants to be 383 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 3: the next president of Russia. 384 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: Have you heard that too, Uh. 385 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 6: You know, I haven't heard that. There were some rumors 386 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 6: that he might be interested in politics after the war, 387 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 6: but he was sharply focused on winning the combat in 388 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 6: the in the conflict and and actions of this this uh, this, 389 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 6: I guess rebellion is probably the better word to put it. 390 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: Uh. 391 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 6: Seemed to support that because even even Progosian, in the 392 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 6: midst of all this, and subsequently in term of fact 393 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 6: just hours ago, reiterated this was never to upset or 394 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 6: unfat Putin, but it was to get a change in 395 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 6: the Ministry of Defense, from the Ministry of Defense and 396 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 6: the commander of the armed forces, who he regarded as 397 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 6: being incompetent and harming Russia. So that's what he has 398 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 6: claimed all along, and he's still saying the same thing today. 399 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. 400 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: Well, if it's all true, it could be an indicator 401 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: that things are going really, really badly for the Russians 402 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 3: in this attempt to take Ukraine. But he also says 403 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: that maybe a factor and why they were marching towards 404 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: Moscow is that he thinks that there was a Russian 405 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: military strike on his troops. 406 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's one of the things he claims, and there's 407 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 6: not really a lot of evidence to support that. I 408 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 6: think the best interpretation is that he decided he was 409 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 6: going to go after the Ministry of Defense because they 410 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 6: had set in place planned it by July first, the 411 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 6: organization was going to be defunded and disbanded unless they 412 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 6: signed a contract directly with the government so that they 413 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 6: would basically take pregotion out of the picture. Instead of 414 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 6: doing that, It looks like he made that part enough 415 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 6: to get everybody fire it up, and then started marching 416 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 6: towards Rustovondana and then eventually towards Moscow. So I think 417 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 6: that that part was basically manipulated and made up, and 418 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 6: then the move was very much real. 419 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 3: And let's talk about this concerning the Wagner group, they're 420 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: sort of like plausible deniability. I mean, one of the 421 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 3: reasons they exist because, as you said, there are a 422 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 3: lot of a lot of Russians. Are all Russians pretty much. 423 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: I heard some of them are former prisoners too. But 424 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: this was to make it look like, well, the Russian 425 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: government isn't doing this invasion in Syria or Africa. You 426 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 3: can't blame us. It's it's this Wagner. 427 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 6: Group, then it's a very thin veil. Then most of 428 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 6: the time they're actually in coordination directly with the government, 429 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 6: even openly, and they're they're actually operating with the Russian 430 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 6: air forces in Syria and in several places in Africa 431 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 6: even today. So that's even up in the air how 432 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 6: that part's gonna work out. But I don't know if 433 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 6: you saw it, but just minutes ago putin mad speech 434 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 6: or he said that he has now allowed the Wagner fighters, 435 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 6: which was one of the big unknowns, to either sign 436 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 6: a contract with the Russian government or they could go 437 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 6: into Beilarus, And several of them have already been seen 438 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 6: going in there, which gives some credence to the possibility 439 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 6: that the Progosian is going to go there and continue 440 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 6: to operate with Wagner from Bailarus and put it potentially 441 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 6: a northern threat to Ukraine. 442 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: A lot of people believe, I don't know what you believe, 443 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 3: that Progosion is not going to be around long, that 444 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: Putin tends to eliminate his enemies. 445 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: If he is a real enemy. 446 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 6: That's certainly a threat. I mean, that's happened so many times. 447 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 6: No one can certainly get by with that or say 448 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 6: that's not. 449 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 4: Going to happen. What we don't know and what would. 450 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 6: Really weigh in on whether that does or doesn't happen 451 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 6: is what was the secret deal that was made between Lukashenko, 452 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 6: the president of BAYLORUS Putin and Progosian Because there is 453 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 6: some suspicion that this could have been like a target 454 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 6: of opportunit, so to speak, and he's going to say, hey, 455 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 6: instead of fighting us, why don't you go and fight 456 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 6: from the different front and go over there with Baylor russ. 457 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 4: There's apparently going to be a. 458 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 6: Big announcement by Lukashenko in the morning where we might 459 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 6: get more visibility on exactly what Progoson is going to 460 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 6: be doing there. But we know for sure by the 461 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 6: Putin himself that many of the Vagdats are moving into 462 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 6: Baylor roosts as we speak. 463 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a report that there was The twenty five 464 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 3: thousand Mercenary Force had about eight thousand fighters at the 465 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 3: time that they were allegedly marching towards Moscow. I don't 466 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 3: know if you all saw this or talking to Lieutenant 467 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 3: Colonel Daniel Davis, retired from the military with defense priorities, 468 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 3: if you saw this, But there's reports that Russian intelligence 469 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 3: operatives reached out to families of some of the mercenary 470 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 3: soldiers and said, if you keep marching your family, you 471 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: could be in big trouble. 472 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: Did you hear see those reports? 473 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 6: I did see some of those reports. Of course, I 474 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 6: have no way to know if it's valid or not, 475 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 6: but it's certainly plausible. 476 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: Now, what do you. 477 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 3: Think about this other theory that some so this might 478 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: have been staged? I guess even President Biden had to 479 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 3: say we had nothing to do with it, but that 480 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 3: some of this might have been staged to have people 481 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 3: rally around Putin. That would be the Russian people thinking that, 482 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 3: you know, now that he's quelled this rebellion, this was 483 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 3: awful that someone tried to topple their efforts in Ukraine. 484 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,719 Speaker 6: You know, there's been so many crazy things going on 485 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 6: with this. It's really hard to rule anything out right now, 486 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 6: especially you know, looking at it from this distance. But 487 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 6: the fact that seven Russian aircraft fixed wing and rotary 488 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 6: wing were shot down as a results of this, and 489 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 6: several people were killed, I tend to think that's probably 490 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 6: not the case because it's way too big of a 491 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 6: risk to actually have armored convoys on the road to 492 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 6: the Capitol, because it looks terrible for Putin. He comes 493 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 6: off looking much weakened to this because this pregosion issue 494 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 6: has been going on since February and exploded again in May, 495 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 6: and Putin took no action. He didn't take care of 496 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 6: his Minister of Defense, he didn't do anything to change 497 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 6: the dynamics, he didn't punish for egosion. So he's coming 498 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 6: off looking like, Hey, who's in charge here? So there's 499 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 6: some questions about his leadership here, and a lot's going 500 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 6: to depend on what happens next, is to whether that's 501 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 6: just a temporary problem or whether it festers into something 502 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 6: more later. 503 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, do you believe this is the beginning 504 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: of the end of Putin? 505 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 4: So far? No? 506 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 6: So far, this is just an embarrassment and a you know, 507 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 6: a red or an orange flag, I'll say a yellow flag. 508 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 6: But it depends on what happens next. If Putin is 509 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 6: not able to get control of the situation, especially with Wagner, 510 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 6: and if progosion continues to be a thorn in his 511 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 6: side and it looks like he can't control him, and 512 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 6: most importantly, if Putin is not able to go on 513 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 6: an offensive this summer and significantly move the front line 514 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 6: to the west. 515 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 4: Then I think that. 516 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 6: This this cheek that's spin in the armor can expand. 517 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 6: But if he succeeds in that, and if he gets 518 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 6: control of Wagner, he could end up being strengthened. Actually, 519 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 6: so we have to wait. It's impossible to say which 520 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 6: way it'll go right now. 521 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 3: But this just seems to point out just how well 522 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 3: things are going for you. If we have some sort 523 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: of revolt by the big mercenary army leader against the 524 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: Russian government because he is angry with the Russian defense officials, 525 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 3: it tells you that things are really screwed up from 526 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 3: the Russian side of this. 527 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 6: Well, it says that that things are dysfunctional on the 528 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 6: Russian side, that's for sure, But it doesn't go so 529 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 6: far as to say things are going good for the 530 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 6: Ukraine side, because on the battlefield, even against the regular 531 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 6: Russian forces, things are going really bad and have been 532 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 6: for the last three weeks of this offensive. They just 533 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 6: today seem to have gained another settlement in kind of 534 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 6: the center of the Zapharisia area, which is helpful to 535 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 6: other side, but they should have probably captured that within 536 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 6: the first seventy two hours if the offense was going 537 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 6: to have a good chance of success. They have lost 538 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 6: so many men and so many of these Western tanks 539 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 6: and Bradley fighting vehicles that we gave them just to 540 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 6: get these basically seven or eight kilometers. They don't have 541 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 6: enough striking power to get all the way down to 542 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 6: the Azok coast, which was the original guest. 543 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 4: You can't. 544 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 6: So right now they're kind of their Ukraine. Sid's kind 545 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 6: of in trouble because they don't have enough power to 546 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 6: keep going for this and to achieve anything meaningful on 547 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 6: the battlefield. So it's uncertain where even that's going. 548 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: All right, thank you. 549 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 3: So much for talking to me, Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis, 550 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: US military retired Senior Fellow and military expert with Defense Priorities. 551 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 6: I appreciate you coming on you bet, thanks for having me. 552 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 3: Hi Defense Priorities, Defense Priorities dot Org. More coming up 553 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 3: on the John and Kenshaw kf I AM six forty 554 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: Live everywhere the iHeartRadio app. 555 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 5: You're listening to John and Ken on demand from KFI 556 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 5: AM six forty. 557 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: We're on the air from one until four after four 558 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: o'clock the iHeart app for the Johnny Cannon Demand Podcast. 559 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: You know, it seems like the experiment is coming to 560 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: an end, that all the progressive ideas on this tolerance, well, 561 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: because they had their way for the last six years. 562 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: We did it the way of the progressives and it 563 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: produced everything disgusting. 564 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's a complete failure. 565 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: It's disgusting and everybody's tired of it. And I'm glad 566 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: you said that, because we have an update on one 567 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: of these great plans to house the homeless, which is 568 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: turning into rubble. 569 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: Oh. Yes, the skid Row Housing Trust. 570 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 3: This is a group of twenty nine properties and the 571 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 3: actual organization is called skid Row Housing Trust. It is 572 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 3: what you think it is. This is to permanently house 573 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 3: the homeless. They are having severe financial problems. Some poor 574 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: guy by the name of Mark Adams was assigned to 575 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 3: be the receiver. He's in charge of the properties and 576 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 3: he's the one that kind of steps in because it's 577 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: a bankrupt situation and he tries to figure out how 578 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 3: to keep things going. He's asking for emergency action from 579 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 3: an LA County Superior Court judge because they can't borrow 580 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: any more money and they have almost two million dollars 581 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: in unpaid bills. Lenders are just not worth willing to 582 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: give them any money. They don't believe that, and it's 583 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: a chance that they're getting of it back. 584 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: The reason this trust is going bankrupt is they couldn't 585 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: keep up with the repairs needed because the crazy drug 586 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: addicted homeless people kept destroying the units they were put 587 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: in as fast as they were put into shelter. That's 588 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: how fast these lunatics were wrecking the place. 589 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: Oh and did you see the story in the La 590 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 3: Times by Liam Dillon and Doug Smith. Yes, it blames 591 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 3: the people that were running the trust for cutting back 592 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 3: on maintenance and security for the reason that they're in 593 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: such a shambles condition. How about that is that like 594 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: a backhand swipe, It's no, it's the people who live there, 595 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 3: as John said, that have destroyed it. 596 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: The vagrants destroyed it and that's why they have no 597 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: money to keep it running. 598 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember they are tolerant there, so gangs have 599 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: taken over this place. 600 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: Here's what Mark Adams said, that the costs are swamping 601 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: initial estimates. He had to revise his projections and roof 602 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: repairs at one property rainbow apartments are needed. The other 603 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: three units at the complex were destroyed, necessitating more work 604 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: than anticipated. He had to spend an average of three 605 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: thousand dollars a unit to fix four hundred units because 606 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: of all the all the damage that that that occurred inside. 607 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: Now this, you know, anybody who's who's had apartments or 608 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: had any kind of properties, you generally don't run into 609 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 2: too many destruction costs, right, And when you run into 610 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: destruction costs, you often find out that you know, it's 611 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 2: drug addicts who are in there. You have a security 612 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: deposit to get you some of it back too, right, Yeah, 613 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: I mean there's there, Yeah, there's normal stuff that the 614 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: security deposit covers. But when you have destruction that comes 615 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: from violent, out of control behavior that is often fueled 616 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: by drugs and booze. Because most people don't destroy their 617 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: own home, especially when they've been giving given a new 618 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: home for free. 619 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: But what point this makes that's very very pertinent. This 620 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: is the problem with the housing. First thing, we get it, 621 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 3: like Newsom said yesterday or that tape we played, the 622 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: cure for homelessness is housing. No, because these people are 623 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 3: no condition to be into housing, because there's no requirement 624 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: that they get treatment, and apparently there's not enough requirements 625 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: that they keep the drug. 626 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: Selling gangs out of here. 627 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 3: The place is overrun with people who have all sorts 628 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: of mental and addictive dysfunctions and gangs. And that's what 629 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 3: the problem is with housing first. It solves nothing but 630 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 3: destroying the place. 631 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: And none of the politicians and most of the media 632 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: never talk about that. That when you let drug addicts 633 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: into one of these housing situations, what follows is law 634 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: large gangs of drug sellers. 635 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: Because they don't that that's their audience. 636 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: Right, and they all the addicts take the drugs. None 637 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: of them are getting treatment. Well, if you have, you know, 638 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: a building with with dozens or hundreds of drug addicts 639 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: in it mental patience, what do you think is going 640 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: to happen? I mean, this is such a stupid, ridiculous 641 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 2: system completely discredits this completely all. That's what I'm saying. 642 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: These progressive experiments are a total failure. They create nothing 643 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: but a sewer, nothing but destruction. 644 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 3: Adams told The Times that as of yesterday, they had 645 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 3: a three hundred and thirty six bucks left in the 646 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: bank account, nearly two million dollars in outstanding obligations. 647 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: It's bankrupt, so they're in a crisis situation. He can't 648 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: get any money. Nobody wants to lend him money. Nobody 649 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: does because that's a bad risk. 650 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: In fact, the last loan he was able to squeeze 651 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 2: out fifteen percent interest fifteen percent. 652 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: They still have fifteen hundred people allegedly living in these 653 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: nine properties. 654 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were You know what, They're all gonna 655 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: get evicted and then they'll have another fifteen hundred people 656 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: on the street, and then that will have been government 657 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: created homelessness because of stupid, failed progressive ideas. 658 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: All right, I got more coming up. 659 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 3: Johnny Ken kf I AM six forty Live everywhere iHeartRadio app. Hey, 660 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 3: you've been listening to the John and Ken Show. You 661 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 3: can always hear us live on KFI AM six forty 662 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 3: one pm to four pm every Monday through Friday, and 663 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 3: of course anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.