WEBVTT - The Lost Masters with Curt Sampson 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.760 Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast on Garrett Morrison. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.480 Today we're talking a little Master's history with the prolific 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.760 author Kurt Samson. But first, this episode is brought to 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.960 you by the Frida Egg Pro Shop. It's at proshop dot, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.000 Thefrida Egg dot com, and right now you will find 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.280 some new hat styles in stock. We've got a navy 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.960 mesh back hat. We've got a yellow performance hat and 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.160 it is a really cool looking yellow trust me, and 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.239 not one but two styles of bucket hat, a classic 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.280 bucket and a big bucket for ultimate sun protection. I 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.400 suppose you know. I think Joel Damon, recent PGA Tour winner, 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.360 has really proven the virtues of a good bucket hat. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.520 So it's time to get yourself one. Summer's on the way. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.800 So that's pro shop dot, Thefrida Egg dot com. We 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.360 have apparel, we have prints, we have accessories and of 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:01.840 course headwear. Check it out. So the genesis of this 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.440 episode is an essay that Kurt Sampson, my guest today, 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:11.520 wrote for Golf Digest during last year's COVID postponed November Masters. Basically, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.920 it's about the strange experience of being in Augusta during 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:20.520 the Masters, finding the town very quiet and not going 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.200 to the tournament, and he wonders whether it could be 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.880 the first quote unquote bad Masters since nineteen sixty eight, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.800 and that props Kurt to mention in the lead of 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.920 this article a book that he wrote about that nineteen 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.039 sixty eight Masters, which is called The Lost Masters. Some 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.320 of you will know that tournament as the Scorecard Masters, 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.080 where after seventy two holes, Roberto Davi Senzo and Bob 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.760 Goldby were tied, but Davey Senzo signed an increct scorecard, 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.120 so there was no playoff and Golby was named the champion, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.960 and a lot of fans were pretty angry about it. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.680 Kurt Sampson's book digs deeply into that Masters and the 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.400 contentxt around it, and I just found it totally fascinating, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.480 not least because I saw all of these uncanny parallels 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.240 between nineteen sixty eight and twenty twenty. And I'll let 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.720 you find some of those for yourself in the conversation 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.560 that we have here. But for me, the big question 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.840 is this, when the world is in disarray, what role, 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.360 what responsibility even do sports have, and particularly golf, particularly 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.919 the Masters, which so many people treat as an escape 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.200 from modern life. What happens when that promise of escape 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.480 is really put to the test. So with a proper 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.919 Spring Masters coming up next week, I thought it was 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.200 a good time to dig into these issues without further ado. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:45.320 Here's Kurt Sampson. 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.240 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.360 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.360 And when I find my ball in a brid egg 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.480 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida, egg Frida egg 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.120 egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to 0:02:58.200 --> 0:02:59.800 run off with the humport scheme. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.600 Why don't we just get get right underway? Are you 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:23.440 ready to get into it? 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:24.320 Let's rock? 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:29.040 Okay, all right? So Kurt, you are at the WGC 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.959 match play at Austin Country Club. I understand right now. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:32.839 How has that been going. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.080 I'm actually late breaking news. I am not there. I'm 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:41.160 in Austin to play in a Hickory golf tournament, the 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.840 Onion Creek Hickory Tournament. We members of the golf's lunatic 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.960 fringe who like to make a hard game harder, play 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.839 with antique golf clubs, and we wear plus fours and 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:56.760 it's quite a parade. 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.640 What a delightful surprise. So that's going on in Austin 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.040 at the same same time as the match play. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.520 That's right, had a preliminary thing yesterday and the first 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.120 round of the competition is this morning. 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.320 How long have you been into Hickory golf? 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.240 Quite a long time. A friend in Texas got me 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.680 into it, off and on. I'm very serious about it. 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.320 I'm on the US team in a US versus Europe 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.840 Ryder Cup competition, have been on the US side for 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.039 five or six iterations of that. And if Covid lifts 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:35.239 were playing in Saint Andrew's in October for the next 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.560 match against those hated Swedes and Brits and Scotts, got 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:41.239 them this time. 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.119 So what do you like about Hickory golf? 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:49.040 The modest scale? Really, it does annoy me when the 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.520 TV announcer murmurs, Dustin's got one hundred and eighty four 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.159 yards looks like a little nine, you know, And no, 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.200 that's not the way it's supposed to be. One eighty 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.440 four is a a pretty good four iron. So it's 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.800 it's kind of a reaction against the current game and 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.480 clubheads that are as big as a canned ham, and 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.800 it does salute the history, which is a good thing. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.279 These guys really do care about the history of this sport. 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.760 What I've heard some people say about hickory golf, Now, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.479 I haven't played hickory golf very much myself. I have 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.200 some hickory clubs that I've been given by a friend, 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.039 and their amazing objects. Really, I mean, they're they're just beautiful. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.880 For one thing, I haven't really played like a full 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.280 round with a full set of hickory clubs. But what 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:39.960 I understand about it is that the walk to your 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.040 next ball, the walk to your next shot, is you 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.919 use the word scale earlier of a different scale. It 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.240 just feels different. The game feels different. It feels like 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.560 it's going quicker. That's That's what I've heard people say, 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:53.960 is is that kind of what you find? 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:59.120 Yeah, it's like playing in Fenway Park versus I don't know, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:04.679 but pick some giant open expanse. It's it's this little 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.760 jewel box game and we play. Admittedly, the courses are 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:13.720 about six thousand yards long, so it's it's it's just 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.800 fun that way. You can really rip a drive. If 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.200 you're over you know to ten to twenty thirty with 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.279 roll you've you know, that's that's muscle time. 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.560 So last year in November, you were at a very 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:33.880 different kind of golf tournament, the November Garrett. That was 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.640 I'm a professional here. You know you were at the 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.960 November Masters. Tell me about your experience at last year's 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.039 very strange Masters. 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:49.400 Yes, my essay and golf digest, which I think you read, Garrett, 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.279 was off the course. Because we were all off the course, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.960 I couldn't gain entry to the grounds. It was a 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.320 weird situation to be there, not why golf in person 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:06.280 and you know, soaking up that atmosphere, which is so great. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.640 So I kind of wandered around the city asking people 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.600 what the heck they were doing there, why, what they 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.920 thought about all this, and how the lowercase Masters was 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:22.239 affecting them, And it was kind of fun talking to 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:29.080 how florists and hostesses out front at a empty restaurant 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.360 and so forth. Surprisingly, I have some friends. I've been 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.600 going there for so long. I know a lot of locals, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.680 and these friends from North Carolina who came to visit 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.800 a golf pro in fact, and he brought his three 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.400 assistants to not watch the tournament, to sit at a 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:55.560 friend's house, have some beer gallons of it and watched 0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:01.080 the event, maybe play some cards. So the momentum of 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.120 reunion there was still strong, but I don't know how 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.400 if it was a complete shutdown again this year, it'd 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.680 be damaging for all concerned. I guess they're allowing a 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.000 limited number of spectators. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.960 You know, in your essay you seem to be capturing 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:24.240 something about the feel of the town during this very 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.040 you know, kind of almost eerie type of Masters. 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:29.280 Was that? 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:31.720 What was that feeling that you were going for? 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.920 I don't know if I achieved it. I guess the disorientation. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:43.160 Who was ever gone made a point of going to 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.960 a place for a golf tournament to not watch the 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.280 golf tournament. I can't think of a precedent. So it was. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.480 It was so odd. Caterers are going broke, and ticket 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.880 brokers and you know, probably quite a bit about the 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.120 economy there, the economy of the thing. The one major 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.240 that stays put things are it's a unique ecosystem. 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:09.320 Ecosystem either one, I think, but it's very dependent on 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.160 Augusta is very dependent in many ways on the Masters. 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.000 In other words, the town of Augusta. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.400 That's so true, although I should say since my nose 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.679 is close to the ground there. What with the club 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:31.320 expanding outward like Germany in nineteen thirty three, there's some 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:37.320 resentment nobody makes. They're once a year buck for parking 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:42.880 cars in their yards. Doesn't happen anymore. There's you've seen it, 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.840 one hundred acres of free parking. The prediction by some 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.480 of the cynical locals is that they're even going to 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.800 the club intends to take away their their house rental 0:09:53.960 --> 0:10:00.920 income by having more and more on campus housing at 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.800 at Augusta National. I can see them doing. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.360 That because that's a big thing, right, is that some 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.520 people rent out their homes for that week and earn, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.559 you know, pretty good money from from the very wealthy 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.320 PGA tour stars who are who are renting homes. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:24.240 As well as the many. There's the Irish Tourist Board. 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.520 There's the I don't know, Toro or USGA or other 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.800 big golf industry types that would come to town, entertain 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:37.440 a lot and need a big house with that caterer 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.880 and that florist and the cleanup crew and so forth. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.600 It's an interesting economy there once a year. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.040 Yeah, so I can hear it a little bit in 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.640 the in the way that you're describing the relationship between 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.200 the course and the town or the club in the town. 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.480 Like many golf writers, you have complex feelings about the Masters. 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.560 Unlike many golf writers, you've actually been willing to write 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.160 about them and talk about them. So I'm curious what 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.640 are your earliest experiences with the Masters? What comes to 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.080 mind when you think of the Masters and your childhood 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:11.800 if anything? 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.640 Oh, my goodness, my childhood. That's it was such a 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.720 big deal. I grew up in the in the northeast 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.360 near Boston, and then later in northern Ohio. Oh my gosh. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.360 We just were counting down the minutes until there was 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.560 that little tinkle of piano music or whatever it was 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.080 back then. It's guitar now, but you know, the screen 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.440 would come up and there would be I guess it 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.200 was Pat summerl was the first voice you'd hear, and 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.000 then they do the little, the little There's Frank Glieber 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.679 on sixteen and Vern Lundquist, who is I'm going to 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.839 meet later today. He's handing out an award at this 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.760 at Onion Creek for this Hickory event. So they introduced 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.680 the announcers, and you know, it was, like they say, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.839 the US the first sign of spring, the first sign 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.320 that golf season was really underway. And I was just 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.600 a kid imitating golf pros Arnie's mannerisms and the way 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.480 Ken Ventury put his golf club on the bag. And 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.400 you know, I even smoked for a couple of weeks 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.600 when I was age twelve, trying to do it Arnie style. Right, 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.840 So a big deal. A Master's has always been huge 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.040 for me. It's probably for you and others listening in. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.040 Yeah, I mean it's it's something akin to a shared 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.160 national experience, which are you know, more and more rare 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.080 these days, right, there's you know, so you know, over 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.439 the years, you know, I mentioned that there's some complexity 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.600 to the way that you have written about the Masters. 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.199 How did your opinion of the Masters as an institution, 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.679 as an American institution evolve over the years and what 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:57.160 caused it to evolve? 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.560 Well, I think, on the one hand, I haveciated it 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.959 more and more over the years. What they do, the 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:09.040 Swiss watch way they run the thing. Every other tournament, 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.680 including US Open, seem amateurish to me like they're scratching 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:18.680 their heads. We need more gallery marshals on whole thirteen, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:23.160 or the trash bends are overflowing in the halfway house 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.679 on number four. That's not going to happen at Augusta National. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.920 Those guys are such prosy. They're fully staffed, anticipate every need, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:37.599 extremely polite. But then there was, you know, uneasy. I 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.400 was uneasy about the place. Having done lots of research 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.400 for my book The Masters, and fully understanding who the 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.640 Pinkertons were and their history. I think back then when 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.840 I first started going to the Masters in the late nineties, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.280 they were not oppressive, but you know, they were like bouncers. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.800 They let you know that this is not a place 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.400 where you can run between shots if you're following excitedly 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:12.000 some group. No running, no yelling, no allowed displays. Reminded me. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.880 I mean, as I've learned more and more that both 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.520 Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones had military backgrounds at least 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.760 during their wars the Great War and then World War Two. 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:29.440 For Jones, very much a controlled thing that was nothing 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:34.120 wrong with it, but seemed rather strict, seemed contributed a 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.560 little to the church like church like atmosphere there, right. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.080 Yeah, do you think that that competence that you mentioned earlier, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.200 that ability to really run a golf tournament and do 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.000 it well year in, year out and do all the 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.320 ancillary things better than everybody else, seemingly including the media 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.360 portion of it, the website, the app, the you know, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.880 all that modern stuff. You think the Masters as an 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.280 old traditional institut wouldn't be very good at it, but 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.000 in fact they're much better at it than everybody else 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.800 and are leading the way on all that kind of stuff. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.040 So there's there's that real level of competence that you're 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.840 talking about. It seems like that might be part and 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:17.640 parcel with the less attractive sort of control that those two, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:19.600 you know, sort of must go together in a way. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.120 It could be. Garrett, Yeah, I think that's a good point. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.520 From repeated, constant not constant, but I go almost every 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.720 year and have great friendships there. I can hardly buy 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.040 a drinker or a dinner there, believe it or not. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.200 I got to see the Masters and Augusta National more 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.760 from their point of view than from the once a 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.040 year visitor who only goes and watches to them. It 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:53.840 was Yankees taking over to some degree Yankee influence, the 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:59.040 corporate influence. It seems to become to them more and 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:05.000 more controlled by some faceless, powerful people who weren't really 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.960 Augustin's who really weren't getting it that people like to 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:13.800 park their cars over there, they liked the old freelance style, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.920 that this was our community golf tournament. It became less 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.320 and less. It has become less and less that and 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.200 more thing in itself. I think you'd agree, Oh, yeah, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:24.640 for sure. 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.520 So just you know, thinking about your lifelong I guess 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:34.400 relationship with the Masters, how did you get interested in 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.120 writing about the nineteen sixty eight Masters specifically? You wrote 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.280 a book in two thousand and six called The Lost Masters, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.480 And it came to my attention because I read your 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.040 piece in Golf Digest last year about the twenty twenty 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.600 November Masters, and in the lead of that piece you 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.240 mentioned the sixty eight Masters in your book The Lost 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.400 Masters about it and draw some parallels between those two 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.000 years and those two tournaments. And we can get into 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:06.440 some of those parallels. But just thinking about the genesis 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.359 of that book and your will to write about that 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.200 particular masters, where did that come from? 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.879 Well, by then, I had already written my book, The Masters, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.760 an imaginative title, but it was a good book with a. 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.920 Good subtitle too, Can you tell us the subtitle? 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.800 The subtitle was Golf, Money and Power in Augusta, Georgia. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:28.320 There you go. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.680 So I wrote about the town, and the tournament and 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.199 the club, all three, noticing what a sweetheart press the 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.840 institution had had over the years, when seldom has heard 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:46.000 a discouraging word. I don't know. I write to keep 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:51.120 myself awake and hopefully entertain a reader and inform him 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.920 or her, although I hardly I don't think I've myself 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.760 his way out there just by writing what I perceived 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:04.359 to be true facts was possibly slightly controversial. My take 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.840 on this beloved institution for the regarding the sixty eight 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.720 Masters and my book The Loss Masters. I just reflected 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.400 that there had only been one bad tournament. They whiffed 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.080 exactly once, and they've been having tournaments there since nineteen 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.160 thirty four, I think, except for Wars correct. And it 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.399 was so vividly part and parcel of a country that 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.639 was sliding into the abyss, that was feeling like a 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.639 banana republic, so divided and so unhappy and at War. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.960 My father was a WW two combat vet. And remember 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:50.520 my brother coming home from his first year at Ohio 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:55.200 State and his formerly crew cut second son now had 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:00.479 blonde hair down to his shoulders and a mustache. Pops 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:02.800 hit the roof, and you know, meanwhile, you know, he's 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.879 seeing Vietnam War protests on TV and here comes his 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.760 son looking like that. It was things like that I 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.800 think happened in lots of households. Nineteen sixty eight was 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.240 a very bad year and a very bad year for 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:18.000 the masters. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.360 Could you say a little more about what was happening 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.159 in America in April nineteen sixty eight. 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.679 From memory a couple of things that shockingly there was 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:33.000 that freaking North Koreans hijack one of our ships sailing 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:38.840 according to US in international waters, the Pueblo, and they 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.000 hold the captain and crew for publicity and propaganda purposes 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:48.000 for a long time. And it was tortuous, it seemed wrong, 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.320 and it seemed like our diplomacy and power were so 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.879 defanged that we couldn't do anything about it. So we 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:56.760 had to live with this every day. It was like 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:03.879 the hostages hostage situation. Years later Vietnam War, of course, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.960 and some of the leaders in our country saying we 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.720 shouldn't be there. So I was sixteen and I didn't 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.280 know which way to go. Where's my father, who was 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.640 my country right or wrong? And my brother who got 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.639 to smell tear gas near the campus. Then the assassinations. 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.719 The big thing in terms of that Masters was seven 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:33.000 days eight days before the first round, Martin Luther King 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:39.520 Junior was assassinated in Memphis, and city or not the city, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.400 the entire country went into lockdown. There was a day 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:47.000 of mourning on the Sunday of the Greater Greensboro Open, 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:52.320 I think was the event before the Masters, So that golf, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.000 you know, is so trivial in the big picture, but 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.720 important to us. Golf got extended. That tournament finished on 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:03.760 a Monday. Crowds at Augusta were tiny and quiet. Everybody 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:08.080 was chastened. I think it was a weird atmosphere. And then, 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.800 you know, as I wrote, and I think it's true, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.640 we were probably looking for a pick me up from 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.399 the Masters that it had always delivered, and instead we 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:21.359 get another bomber. It was just a terrible finish there 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.719 with you know, a parallel between our government being clueless 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.639 and not powerful like it had been in the face 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:37.160 of changing crazy circumstances. We the Augusta National people, they whiffed, 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:40.040 they blew it. It was a horrible result of bad 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.840 a difficult situation that could have been could have been 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.639 not nearly so bad that could I think it really 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.440 could have been resolved in five minutes and then they 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.200 could have had a playoff. But we'll talk about what 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:53.960 actually happened in a moment. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.199 Maybe we could set that up with some of the 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:58.520 some of the characters who are involved. Put some people 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:00.760 on the stage here. You know, first of all, we 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:05.919 have that old guard at Augusta, the legends of that club, 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.040 including Bobby Jones. So where is Bobby Jones at in 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.160 nineteen sixty. 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:16.320 Eight, Poor Bobby critically ill with serringo mailia. I believe 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:21.760 it's pronounced this terrible wasting neurological disease he had that 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.680 attacks the spine and made him brittle as a leaf, 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.200 and he was wheelchair bound by nineteen sixty eight, had 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:34.600 a cath that are in permanently. And then you know 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.680 he was got the flu there at home in Atlanta. 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.720 But he was looking for rejuvenation like everybody else. So 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:47.199 he had told the chauffeur that we're going anyway. So 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.800 he and I think missus for a while at least 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:57.120 made the annual drive east to Augusta. So there's Bobby 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.000 in his cabin with the flu and very ill. 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.240 So yeah, and to be clear, here's an American legend, 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:09.000 right here is the and the representative of the Masters, 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.840 at least publicly, and he and he is ailing quite 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.480 severely at this point in nineteen sixty eight, which has 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.000 some sort of symbolic resonances about, you know, how the 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:21.960 tournament's doing. 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.600 Right, and then at the end in its way and 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.400 one telling the result came down to what decision made 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:32.960 by him? Right, this guy who's what some small portion 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.119 of the man he had been. I can't tell you 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.080 for sure there was mental decline, but from what he wrote, 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.639 he was just so miserable. I just don't think he 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.520 could have been as sharp as he had been. 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:51.760 So alongside Bobby Jones and the leadership of Augusta National 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.520 was Clifford Roberts, also an older man at this point, 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:58.720 and you know, in the last what ten years of 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:02.480 his life I suppose by nineteen sixty eight, So tell 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.959 me about Clifford Roberts. You know who was he and 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:08.200 who was he? By nineteen sixty eight. 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:14.080 Cliff had been a major. Came from poor circumstances, but 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:19.080 worked his way up through hard work and guile, with 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:22.840 not giving every detail. He finds himself a stockbroker with 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:29.080 a great clientele in New York. And he was the 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:34.639 organizer of the club the first one hundred members. This 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.639 is almost exactly correct. Of the first one hundred members, 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:41.200 ninety nine or ninety eight were from New York City 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:43.560 and the other two were Bob Jones and his father. 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.120 So Augusta National was a New York social club all 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.000 the way for a number of years. That's what it was. 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:56.440 And Cliff was the dictator, a benign dictator, benevolent or not, 0:24:56.560 --> 0:25:00.840 depending on your point of view. Very quirky, using quirks. 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:05.080 I think Steve Melnick was described. Remember Steve, who was 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.200 a good golfer, one of USAM and was an announcer. 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:17.400 He described a conversation with Cliff Roberts, who had such 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:20.919 broad spaces between his words that you weren't sure you 0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.639 were still in a conversation with the guy. So that 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.359 was Cliff, and Cliff had declared by then by sixty 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:30.919 eight that Bob Jones isn't going to do the Butler 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:37.200 Cabin Meet the New Champion ceremony anymore. The year before 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:40.679 he drooled a bit and he looked like hell, I mean, 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:43.520 no other way to put it. The poor guy was terminal, 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:49.000 I mean no insult to him in that, so that 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:53.359 the power dynamic had changed completely. It was Bob Jones 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.119 was now had was just ceremonial and it was all Cliff. 0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:03.040