1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: Hey, k how are you? 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul? How about you? Have you been thinking 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: about the case. 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: Of course I have or Billy Woodward? 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: I know, I know, so this case has been for 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: us about is this an accident or is this murder? 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like we have kind of contradictory evidence, 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: but I'm not quite sure where do you think we 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: stand now? I know you've been thinking about it this week. 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have all the information yet to make 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: that determination. And these cases can be difficult because sometimes 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: you know, the evidence could support either theory, and that's 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: that's where I'm interested to see where this goes as 26 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: the case unfolds, because right now I think there's some 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: inconsistencies in Anne's initial statement. However, there's some aspects where 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: you know, it appears that how she said they you know, 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: the shooting went down, killing Billy, you know, could be 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: possible based on what she said. So I'm wanting answers. 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: You know, this is you know, what I used to 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: do during aspects of my job is to try to 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: look at physical evidence to answer accidental or homicide. You know, 34 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: it's funny use the term murder. I never use the 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: term murder. 36 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: I've been using the term murder for four years with 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: you No. 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, because I just as I'm in the 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: true crime space. My role was, you know, working homicides. 40 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: You know, I'm waiting for the pathologist to rule is 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: it homicide or accidental or natural, et cetera. We have 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 2: homicide investigators, we don't have murder investigators. Murder, at least 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: in California, is a legal term. It isn't murder until 44 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: a DA charges murder. It's a homicide up to that point. 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: That's my perspective's my little mini rant if you will, 46 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: but you can use murder, I'll accept it. 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: That's good because I'm probably not going to stop using murder. 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: But that's a good explanation. Let me do a very 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: quick summary of this case. So it's nineteen fifty five. 50 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: We have a very very wealthy couple, the Woodwords billion, 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: and they leave their a state. They have a two kids, 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: two boys, one is eight and one is eleven. I 53 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: don't think I've mentioned that the last time the boys 54 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: are asleep in the family room. When Anne and Billy leave, 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: they go to a really ritzy party with the former 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: king and his wife. They come back and everybody in 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: the neighborhood is scared. Essentially in this area of Long Island, 58 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: everyone in this area of Long Island is very wary 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: of intruders. There's robberies, and then Billy has been afraid 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: that there's a squatter that's been in their garage, and 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of mischief around. They check the house, 62 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: nothing seems to miss. They go to sleep except our bedrooms, 63 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: which is an unusual and then Anne says that she 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: hears something she thinks on the roof. Then she says 65 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: there are shadows bouncing off the walls in her bedroom. 66 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: She grabs her shotgun, which is in a chair next 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: to her. That also doesn't seem unusual. She's a hunter, 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: and especially if everybody's freaked out. Billy had a couple 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: of guns too, that wouldn't be unusual. But what is unusual? 70 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: She picks up the gun. She goes into the hallway. 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: She sees a dark, shadowy figure near her husband's bedroom door. 72 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: She shoots twice, and Billy is dead, with no clothes on. 73 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: Halfway in his bedroom, halfway out in the hallway, a 74 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: lot of pulling blood. One pellet from this shotgun, apparently, 75 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: according to the medical examiner, kills him, goes into the 76 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: brain and then there are I think three more pellets 77 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 1: in his skull, but his face has been hit really 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: hard with pellets in his head. And then I think 79 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: I remember correctly that the spray was about a two 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: foot long spray right against the back wall of his 81 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: bedroom from these two shots. Yeah, number one, does that 82 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: sound all right? And number two? What was contradictory from 83 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: what you remember that? She says, versus what maybe the 84 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: evidence could be telling us? Now? 85 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think you're spot on The one thing 86 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: that is a big piece of evidence that needs to 87 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: be addressed is her initial statement is that there is 88 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: a shotgun blast through the door mechanism into Billy's room. 89 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: At least in the photograph that you showed me, I 90 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: am not seeing any damage to the inside of that door, 91 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: and from a shotgun blast from a twelve gage shotgun, 92 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: even with bird shot, it's going to do some significant 93 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: damage that I would expect to see even on the 94 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: inside of the door. So that's that's one of the 95 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: pieces of the puzzle that I'm hoping to get some 96 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: clarification on, whether it be through more details on the 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: physical evidence or through the investigation itself. The two foot 98 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: spread pattern on the back wall is not going to 99 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: be accurate to the distance the shooter was from Billy 100 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: because those pellets flew a longer distance after the initial 101 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: impact with Billy. So these just happened to be pellets 102 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: that him just because the way pellets spread as they 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: go down range, and so it's more of the spread 104 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: on Billy himself and the injuries the impact with the 105 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: shotgun wads. You know, that's what's kind of more indicative 106 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: that we're dealing with. You know, an intermediate range shot. 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: And again this is you know, just educated guessing, but somewhere, 108 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: you know, five to fifteen feet away. It's this is 109 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: not a close range shot. If it had been and 110 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: Billy's face was impacted, you know, on the on the 111 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 2: right side, half of his face would be gone. You know, 112 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: shotguns are devastating weapons at close range. 113 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so you know I had given you details that 114 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: he had a torn ear and his cheek was ripped up. 115 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: But still that still doesn't say close range, right, because 116 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: a twelve gage shotgun, as you said, would have just 117 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: destroyed his face. 118 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: At a close range, yes, for sure, you know. And 119 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: then basically a contact shot from a shatku and causes 120 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: the head to explode. So it's it is a it's 121 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: a devastating weapon. 122 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what becomes of big interest to 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 1: the people in the media, because now this is out. 124 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: You know, you and I really have been talking about 125 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: I would say a timeframe from one am when they 126 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: get home until eleven or twelve pm the next day 127 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: when the medical examiner comes out with his findings. I 128 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: don't think we've even gotten past that. So now we 129 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: need to talk about the churn that happens, of gossip 130 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: things that will affect this investigation, but also sort of 131 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: more facts that come out that could inform us of 132 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: what may or may not have happened, because I know, 133 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, we can talk about inconsistencies or consistencies. She 134 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: fired far away, but still she certainly could have fired 135 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: on purpose and killed him, or someone else could have 136 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: fired on purpose and killed him. And at the same time, 137 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: why would that have happened? And will there be suspicion 138 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: that turns on her? So let me talk about really 139 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: the relationship, because that's what people home in on here. 140 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: So Anne is questioned by police, but only after she 141 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: goes to the hospital and is sedated and sort of 142 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: sequestered on her own for a couple of days under 143 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: orders of her doctor because she's so hysterical or she 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk to police. So New York society 145 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: is whispering about this. They did not have the greatest marriage, 146 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: Billy would word and his wife, so people and I 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: think friends and family had thought they were heading for 148 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: a divorce at this point anyway, which I know, I said, 149 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, people can sleep in separate bedrooms, and that 150 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: was not abnormal in the nineteen fifties. But this might 151 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: have been because they didn't want to sleep in the 152 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: same bedroom. But they did go to parties together, but 153 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: that could have been keeping up appearances, right, absolutely, Okay, 154 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: so let me just tell you about these these people, 155 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: because that is part of this narrative here. So totally 156 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: mismatched couple. It sounds like Billy came from you know, 157 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: this banking family, millions of millions of dollars. Anne came 158 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: from a very humble family from Pittsburgh, Kansas. She came 159 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: to New York in the nineteen thirties looking for work 160 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: and she found it as a model. She was a 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: radio actress, and eventually she became a showgirl at this 162 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: swanky place called Fefees Monte Carlo Nightclub in Manhattan. You know, 163 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: this is a showgirl, entertainer performer. Lots of wealthy men there. 164 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: And Anne actually first met Billy through his father, William 165 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: the banker, and William Senior met Anne at that nightclub, 166 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: so he's the one that spots her first. There had 167 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: been speculations all over the place. One speculation will be 168 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: that Anne and William Senior were involved either beforehand or 169 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: during the marriage. The other speculation has been that William 170 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: Senior sat Billy down and said, there is a very attractive, 171 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: nice woman at this club that i've met. I would 172 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: like you to get involved with her because people are 173 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: spreading rumors that you're gay, and we can't have that. Okay, 174 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot happening. I know you have a look 175 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: on your face like there's a lot already. I haven't 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: even gotten halfway through it. 177 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: Well, just you know, Senior possibly having a relationship with 178 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: Anne and ends up with Junior Senior maybe continuing a 179 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: relationship with Anne even though she's married to a son. 180 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: There's sort of an ew factor. It's like a you know, 181 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: that's an unusual arrangement. And then, of course in nineteen 182 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: fifty five, you know, if there's rumors of Billy being gay, 183 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 2: that's going to be something that could hurt Senior's reputation, 184 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: the family's reputation, you know. So I could see where 185 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: there could be family pressure, you know, for Anne and 186 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: Junior Billy Junior to you know, get married. But then 187 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: under that dynamic where there isn't the sexual attraction, was 188 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: Senior still dating Anne even though she has this facade 189 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: of a marriage to Billy. You know, so it's kind 190 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: of a Both of those initial things you said are 191 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: in some ways of you know, unusual lover's triangles, and 192 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: we know that those can go sideways. 193 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, of course this is 194 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: part of the gossip. And this would be denied by 195 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: William sor And I don't know if how much of 196 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: the gossip was was that it was happening during the marriage. 197 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: Definitely gossip that they had an affair. He said, I'd 198 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: like you to get involved with my son, who, you know, 199 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: William Woodward was very, very handsome and all of the 200 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: photos I've seen, so this would not have been a 201 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: stretch for Anne. I will say, let's throw another complicated 202 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: person into the mix, William Senior. Billy's mother. Her name 203 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: was Elsie Ogden Crider. She cannot stand Anne. So Elsie 204 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: comes from a very well to do family. Also, she 205 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: was a descendant of John Adams and the niece the 206 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: president of the Union Pacific Railroad. Lots of money and 207 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: then she marries William Woodward and she has Billy with him, 208 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: and so she has big, big dreams of Billy marrying 209 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: into maybe the royal family or having just a different 210 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: type of wife. A former showgirl who could have potentially 211 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: had an affair with Elsie's husband was not the dream. 212 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: So Elsie was incredibly hard on Anne. But Anne and 213 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: Billy got married in nineteen forty three, and then they 214 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: had the kids shortly after that, so you know the 215 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: in forty four and forty seven. In nineteen forty seven, 216 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: Billy filed for divorce yes, and Anne said hell no, 217 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: and she refused to give him a divorce, and so 218 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: that's when they both started having public affairs. And they 219 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: were fighting in public one time and shouted at Billy, 220 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: why don't you just bring a man in our bed, 221 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: that's what you want. 222 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: Well, the toxicity in this relationship is not new. I mean, 223 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: this is going back to before they were married. You know, 224 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: the family pressures. You know, Dad possibly was having sex 225 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: with Anne prior to her marrying Billy. And then now 226 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: Elsie is not liking the fact that Billy's going to 227 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: marry Anne. You know, it's kind of maybe on the side, 228 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: not relevant to the case, but I kind of questioned 229 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: Senior and Elsie's relationship, and you know what that was like, 230 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: you know, but obviously it's there's a lot of family pressure, 231 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: contention at the very beginning. And then now you have Billy, 232 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: you know, wanting to file for divorce really early on 233 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: in the relationship, you know, and it's and Anne is 234 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: not wanting that, which is interesting to me. It's okay, 235 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: why not, especially if she's now starting to you know, think, well, 236 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: he might actually rather be with with another man than 237 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: than with her. You know, is she looking out for 238 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: her kids? You know? Maybe you know it's it's also 239 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: is there a length of marriage that's needed for it 240 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: to be considered a long term marriage? So she fully 241 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: qualifies for all the assets she possibly could have access 242 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: to from this very wealthy family. That may be part 243 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: of it. You know, maybe he's pulling the trigger so 244 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: fast where she gets ast out on you know a 245 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: lot of financial gains because it would be characterized as 246 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: a short term marriage. You know, so post Billie's desire 247 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: to divorce or file for divorce, now they're fighting all 248 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: the time. Now there's all this domestic abuse. Neither one 249 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: of them wants to be in this relationship. But they 250 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: stay together until nineteen fifty five, and now it's like, well, okay, 251 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: so what happened? You know, And at least has admitted 252 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: to shooting Billy and killing him. But what was the 253 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: reason for her doing that if it wasn't accidental? 254 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: I think Deceit is a big part of this relationship. 255 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: You know. 256 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: For the record, Billy's dad dies two years before he dies, 257 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: So this just leaves the mom who is constantly sort 258 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: of on top of this relationship and disapproving of it 259 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: and being really difficult on Anne. So he has affairs 260 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: and very publicly denounces them and is very upset about it. 261 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: Their fights play out in public and sometimes they come 262 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: to blows. There's physical violence between them, and as recently 263 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: as the night Billy was shot. At that party with 264 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: the former King of England, they argued about his airplane purchase, 265 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: that Helio courier Craft thing of his, and that she 266 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: thought it was strange that he went to her hometown 267 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: to buy the plane. She thinks he is trying to 268 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: dig up dirt, which is what his friends confirm, and 269 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: then you know, you have to think, well, what's the 270 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: dirt that she's covering up? And there were a couple 271 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: of things that she lied about to Billy. One was that, 272 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, she said that she was an orphan. She wasn't. 273 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: Her father was actually alive, and he was a streetcar 274 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: operator who had abandoned her and her mother when she 275 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: was eight years old. So she lied about that, and 276 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: she was concerned. It sounds like that he was going 277 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: to find out by going back to Kansas, you know, 278 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: that she had made up some stuff. Now, I mean, 279 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: is that worse than both of them having an affair 280 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: and she's screaming at him in public? Why don't you 281 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: just go bring a man into our bed, that's what 282 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: you want? In some ways, I was thinking a self 283 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: defense claim might be better for her, because, you know, 284 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: their acrimony was so explosive, and especially if they were 285 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: physical with each other. Sure would it be surprising, especially 286 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five, for a woman to say, my 287 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: husband finally did it. He exploded and you know, I 288 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: luckily was able to protect myself, assuming that that things 289 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: did not go the way she said they went. 290 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: I mean, if she had decided to kill him, that 291 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: probably with the you know, relationship history, that possibly would 292 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: have been a better way to go. She's painting it 293 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: under the guise of the recent burglaries that had happened, 294 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: the break ins in the neighborhood, you know, the squadron 295 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: and their garage. That's why she pulled the trigger on 296 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: the shadowy figure. You know, she was upset that he 297 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 2: bought the Helio Air airplane. I mean, he's going all 298 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: the way out to her home city to dig up dirt. 299 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: There must have been some rumors that were significant enough 300 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: for him to go, I gotta go check this out, 301 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: you know. 302 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: And I was reading through her background when she came 303 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: to New York in nineteen thirty seven. She had done 304 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: things to reinvent herself. She tweaked her name a little bit, 305 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: she got a nose job, but I didn't. There was 306 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: nothing that was a huge red flag. But you're right, 307 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: if she is. It could have been just the mere 308 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: idea that he was looking that that's the level he 309 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: would go to in a divorce. That scared her because 310 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: then what would stop him from making up stuff or 311 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: hiring somebody to make up stuff about her. You know. 312 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: It could have just been even that fear. Maybe not 313 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: something she actually had done in Kansas. 314 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 2: No, potentially, I just you know, I kind of leaned 315 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: towards she had something she was really concerned about, and 316 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: it may be something we have no clue about today, 317 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: you know, and it was never discovered by Billy or 318 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: never discovered by the people he talked to are the 319 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: people she knew. But that that timing seems significant. Okay, 320 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: so you know this is where you know the relationship 321 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: Billy's actions, Ann's actions. I really, you know, this is 322 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 2: all seeming to be what I call churn. There is 323 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: a lot of churn, you know, where now you have 324 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 2: this contentious marriage, and it just happens that Anne was 325 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: the first one to act. This could easily have gone 326 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: the other way, right, And I just think Anni is 327 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: either protecting a reputation and or protecting what she potentially 328 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: could gain from a divorce from such a wealthy husband. Yeah. 329 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I question whether it's Billy pushing to get 330 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: custody of the two boys, or if it's Elsie, his 331 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: mother pushing. Sure, you know, I don't want to think 332 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: ill of men in the nineteen fifties, but it me 333 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: a little bit to read that this is somebody who 334 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: was you know, he was pursuing this. There's no mention 335 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: of because she's going to take all my money. It's 336 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: more of I do not want her to take my 337 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: boys from me. And I could be totally wrong, but 338 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: I do think Elsie had a lot involved with this, 339 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: you know, with these two boys that she cared about too, 340 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: and her husband was gone. 341 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: I think that's that's very good observation, and I would 342 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: not undersell the death of Senior. Senior dies two years 343 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: before Billy is killed. Senior most certainly has a will. 344 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: You know, Elsie is the one that's probably going to 345 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 2: be the primary beneficiary. But what else was distributed from 346 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 2: Senior down to Junior? You know where? Now Junior's assets 347 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 2: are even that much more appealing to Anne. 348 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: Okay, well, listen to this because this story it's really weird. 349 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: I felt like we took a couple of left turns, 350 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: but this is a left turn. And then around the corner, 351 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: so they find a witness. A witness is a burglar. 352 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: He breaks into the Woodward house and he's sneaking around. 353 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, here's a shot. Goudn't go off, 354 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: and he's like, what. 355 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: I mean, so let me tell you, Let me tell 356 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: you what happens, good guy. Right, All these rumors are 357 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: going around that Anne is this Anna is that she 358 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: is still considered an outsider, even though she had been 359 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: married to this man for twelve years and had two 360 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: kids with him. So all of a sudden, New York 361 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: society's turning on her and saying this must have been 362 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: done on purpose, especially with all of the rumors going 363 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: around between him being gay and her, you know, having 364 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: dirt dug up on her. What's going to happen next? 365 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: And then of course everybody read about the fights that 366 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: they had. Gosh, it's like, it's so hard for me 367 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: to get past the fact that they were having these awful, 368 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: vicious fights in public. Paul and number one, they were 369 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: still invited places, but number two, they still went places together, 370 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: and that goes back to the manicured lawns. For me, 371 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: it is one hundred percent appearances. They are both beautiful people, 372 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: they have two gorgeous sons, and this facade, I guess 373 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: even when it breaks down, you know, when they both 374 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: get too drunk at the Vanderbilts, then you know this 375 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: is still important to them. It's amazing, miserable. 376 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: It's important to them, as you know, during the time 377 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: that they're a couple, but it's important to them in 378 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: their future because they're envisioning themselves being divorced and separate 379 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 2: and so they need to have allies, right for both 380 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: of them, they need to maintain relationships so they are 381 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: still in that you know, that type of social circle. 382 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: Okay, here comes the prowler. So our witness is a prowler. 383 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: He's twenty two, He's from Germany. His name is Paul Wirths. 384 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: He said, I've been burglarizing mansions in the neighborhood, including 385 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: this property, the Woodward property. He said that a few 386 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: days before the murder, he had broken into the six cargarath. 387 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: Remember the property manager said the window was broken out 388 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: of the garage. So he is also a squatter, burglarana squatter. 389 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: But on the night of the shooting, he says he 390 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: was over a half a mile from the estate, and 391 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: that night he had broken into a local country club 392 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: and taken food from a refrigerator. But he changes the story. 393 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: He said after he hit that country club and took 394 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: food out of the refrigerator, he went back to Sunken Orchard, 395 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: the Woodward home, and then he says he broke into 396 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: the poolhouse where he had been before. He ate four 397 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: frozen hot dog rolls, and that same night, when all 398 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: the lights in the house went dark, which you have 399 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: to presume is between one am and two am. Paul says, 400 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: he climbed this tree and he enters the house through 401 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: an open window which enters onto the second floor hallway. Now, 402 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: Billy and Ann's I told you before, was on the 403 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: first floor. Right, he hears shotgun blasts, He freaks out, 404 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: He runs back out and jumps through the window, climbs 405 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: towards the roof, and he jumps off and he runs away, 406 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: and investigators say to Paul, okay, burglar squatter, why don't 407 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: you reenact this? And so he goes and explains everything. 408 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: He says, uh, you know, this is the way I 409 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: did it. And when they look outside of Anne's bedroom 410 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: there is a broken tree branch, and so they're saying, 411 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: this is, as you like to say, churn. Maybe there 412 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: is some churn there. Now you can react. But also 413 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: there's that last photo in your packet that actually gives 414 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you a sketch of what Paul Worth says happened that 415 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: night where he heard the shotgun blast. Now he's not 416 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: saying Ann did it. He's not, you know, he's not 417 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: saying anything happened. It is placing him by his own emission. 418 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: At the scene. 419 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 2: Well, this is definitely a different view of the house 420 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: than the other the other so this is showing what 421 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: appears to be a primary entrance into the house. And 422 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the rear of the 423 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: house or considered the front of the house, because it 424 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: appears that there are you know, there's a cobblestone drive 425 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: where the police car and another vehicle are parked. And 426 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: then you can see that this house is. Even though 427 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 2: it's only showing part of this house, it's it's a 428 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: significant house. This is a rambling, you know, large house. 429 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: I'm surprised that Billy's bedroom window and Anne's bedroom window 430 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: are right there, ground level, right by this main entrance. Yeap. 431 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: Now, one note Paul I want to make is that 432 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: Paul has said our burglar witness, that he has come 433 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: to this house before because he liked to peep at Ann. 434 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: And I think that the reason that this has become 435 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: a big deal is because Anne had said I heard 436 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: somebody on the roof. I freaked out. I took a 437 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: gun and I shot at the person who I thought 438 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: had been on the roof. Now we've got a guy 439 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: who says he's been on the roof. He was sitting 440 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: there peeping at her, and they're looking to see if 441 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: they can find this physical evidence. Just wanted to explain. 442 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, and I think that that's significant 443 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: in terms of corroborating the reason Anne got up, you know, 444 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: and now you have you have Paul Worth saying well, 445 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: yeah I was there, you know, so you know what 446 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 2: a coincidence. But you know, stranger things have happened in 447 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: my experience, So this is not anything that I would 448 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: even come close to dismissing. You know. One of the 449 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: things about Paul Worth that stood out to me, you know, 450 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: and we kind of talked about this, and when we 451 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: first started talking about this case, is he is that 452 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: that burglar that is just prowling in this community and 453 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: you know, he's running, he's needing food, and you know, 454 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: so this is this is a real deal. And these 455 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: types of neighborhoods, you know, he's he's not going into 456 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, houses where there's a lack of valuables. He's 457 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: he's going to score every single time he breaks into 458 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: any of these houses, just because of the wealthy nature 459 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: of of this this location. But the fact that he 460 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: went into the Woodward house that night, knowing the family 461 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 2: was home, he sees them turn off the lights. Okay, this, 462 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: this is what is an evolution of your typical evolution 463 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: of your like your fetish burgh type of individual, you know. 464 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: And you when you mentioned that, you know, he admitted 465 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 2: to peeping on an I wasn't surprised at all. It's like, yeah, 466 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 2: you know, burglars that are financially motivated don't want to 467 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: go into structures where people people are there. They try 468 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: to avoid that at all costs because their interest is 469 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: the property and they don't want to be confronted by 470 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: you know, the owners or the family. And that's why 471 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 2: you often see residential burglaries occurring during the day because 472 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: that's when people are at work in school. And then 473 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: you see commercial burglaries happen at night because all the 474 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: employees are home, you know, asleep, you know. So that's 475 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: that's where when when he's at night and he's going 476 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: in to the woodward houses, like, oh, okay, this this 477 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: guy's more than just a financially motivated burglar, and I'm 478 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: not surprised at all he was peeping. Now, of course 479 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: that that elevates him as a potential suspect. 480 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: She's admitted to it. 481 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: That's just it. You know, if if she had not 482 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: admitted that, I would think, yeah, the investigation probably would 483 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: have really drilled down on Paul Worth, you know, and 484 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: him just putting him self inside this residence at the 485 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: time the shotgun goes off. I mean, that's that is 486 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: a significant statement. But I you know, with with Anne 487 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: admitting shooting Billy, and you know, I truly think Paul 488 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: Worth with what I know. I mean, he's he's an 489 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: ear witness. He doesn't see the shooting, you know, he 490 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: just hears the shotgun go off, and I'm sure you know, 491 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: he probably got the hell out of that house as 492 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: fast as possible, thinking that maybe that shotgun was aimed 493 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 2: at him. 494 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: Now, let me tell you the rumors which would not 495 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: shock me. So remember I told you that Paul the 496 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: burglar had changed his story. When they initially interviewed him, 497 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: he said he was a half mile away robbing a 498 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: country club. Then two days later he changes his story 499 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: and says, yeah, I did that. I the hot dog 500 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: buns or whatever the hot dog rolls. And then I 501 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: came and decided this would be a good time to 502 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: peep at Anne and the fact that he changed his 503 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: story and made people raise their eyebrows. And it's because 504 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: of this Elsie Woodward was so concerned about her family's 505 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: reputation that the thought is that Elsie really sat down 506 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: and thought about it and said, what would be worse 507 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: for my daughter in law, who potentially murdered my son 508 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: to walk away and maybe I get the boys, or 509 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: for her to be convicted and there'd be a massive 510 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: murder scandal in our family. So the thought was that 511 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: she paid off Paul the burglar to say that he 512 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: was on the roof instead of his original story. Now 513 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: he had peeped before, for sure, But I don't know 514 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: what we know about these people. What do you think 515 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: makes the most sense? 516 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know. What I'm trying to do is 517 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: I'm trying to determine how that changes the course of 518 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: the investigation. Let's say you're falsely inserting this burglar into 519 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: the residence at the time of the shooting. He most 520 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 2: certainly is going to be eyeballed very very closely. If 521 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: the idea is is that he is the shooter, then 522 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: it's also going to be he's going to have to 523 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: offer up specific details that match up with how the 524 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: shooting went down, Yeah, you know. And so that's how 525 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: the investigators are going to have to sit him down. 526 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: If he's cooperative and he's providing details, they just have 527 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: to be able to drill down and see is he 528 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: factual about how the shooting went down or not. 529 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: It sounded that they were trying to retrofit him into 530 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: this whole scenario, like they knew he was the Oyster 531 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: Bay prowler. He had said when police interrogated him, Yes, 532 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: I've been on their property before, and whether or not 533 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: was lying about it. She said she heard, you know, 534 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: steps on the rooftop and that's what triggered her to 535 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: pick up the gun. And so it seems a little 536 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: complicated to then have Elsie send somebody to find this 537 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: guy who is probably in jail, pay him off, and say, well, 538 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: you've said that you've been there in the past. Why 539 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: don't you just say you were? I don't know. It 540 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: just didn't doesn't make a lot of sense. But Elsie 541 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: is very concerned about a scandal. 542 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: I know that it is a big stretch to think 543 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: that Elsie would be able to identify Paul Worth as 544 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: the person that's been prowling in this area, especially if 545 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: he has not been arrested for a similar crime in 546 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: that area, or law enforcement is unaware that he's doing that. 547 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: The fact that Paul Worth initially says he was like 548 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: six blocks away. 549 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, he said he was a half a mile away. 550 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: But they do suspect and they do get out of 551 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: him that he was the Oyster Bay Cove prow or. 552 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: So they track him down and start asking who have 553 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: you been prowling? And then the word words were one 554 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: of them, and so that's how they start to make 555 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: that connection. 556 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: Okay, you know, but his initial statement, this is a 557 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: guy doing you know, he's doing property crimes. If he 558 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: recognized that he was in the homicide house at the 559 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 2: time the homicide occurred, he's not going to freely admit that, right, 560 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: And so he's he's you know, basically telling investigators, oh, no, 561 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: I wasn't there, Okay, because because I think, you know, 562 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: this is just you know, your typical self preservation lie 563 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: and so not. I'm not dismissing outright the fact that 564 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: Elsie could have potentially worked through intermediaries in order to 565 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 2: you know, influence him to at least complicate the investigation. 566 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 2: But I just I just don't see where. You know, 567 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: if the investigators are doing their job, you know, it 568 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: probably would become very clear pretty quickly that he wasn't 569 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: just in the house, but he was the actual shooter. 570 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 2: It's just it doesn't negate and admission the use of 571 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: Anne's shotgun, you know, everything else from the victimology. So 572 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 2: that's I think where I right now. I'm sitting on 573 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: pretty firmly on the side that he was a witness, Yeah, 574 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: and it was just a coincidental thing. He was in 575 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 2: the house at the time the shotgun went out. 576 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: But does it add to her credibility because she does 577 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: hear his footsteps, she freaks out, she picks up the gun. 578 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: Does this now sound more like an accident rather than 579 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: a spiteful wife who scared her husband is going to 580 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: just rip apart her life. 581 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 2: I think it does. It does not determine the difference 582 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: between accident and homicide. However, Let's say Anne intentionally shoots Billy, 583 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: but now she's making it as an accident, and she's 584 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 2: lying about it. People weave true things into their lies, 585 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: and she may have heard something up on the roof, 586 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: and so as she's telling what you know, this lie 587 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 2: about what happened. She's building that in because she knows 588 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: she did hear something, but it's also can be argued 589 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: the other way. She heard something, she got up, she 590 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: thought there was a prower inside the house and shot him. 591 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: It's just again the discrepancies in her initial statements. I 592 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: do have concerns with Yeah. 593 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: And I think you know, so this goes to a 594 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: grand jury, there's a lot of testimony and the contention 595 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 1: of some of the witnesses. Many of the witnesses were 596 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: they heard Paul on the roof and grabs a gun, 597 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: and Billy jumps up from bed even though he doesn't 598 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: have his weapons with him, totally naked, and this is 599 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: where all of this happens. I mean, I don't think 600 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: you're going to be surprised at all to know they 601 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: did not indict her. It was unanimous, and you know, 602 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: they were all pretty convinced that this was, you know, 603 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: an accident and just a terrible coincidence that they were 604 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: having an absolutely awful, toxic relationship while this was happening. 605 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: So I don't know if you want to wrap up 606 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: the crime part of this, because the aftermath is about 607 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: as interesting as the prelude. To all of this. 608 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: You know, the lack of the indictment is not surprising 609 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: in this case, you know, And I've worked cases with 610 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 2: you know that were husband reports wife committed suicide or 611 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: girlfriend reports suicide. And there's evidence to suggest, no, that's 612 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: not looking like a suicide. And yet there is not 613 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 2: enough to be able to determine either for sure or 614 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: to convince a prosecutor to file charges because a prosecutor 615 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 2: is looking downstream. Can I convince twelve people in the jury, right, 616 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: It's just not strong enough of the case, you know. 617 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 2: I think the circumstantial evidence with Anne, the victimology, the 618 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 2: marital history, you know, there's a lot of things that 619 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 2: point to possibly you know, this argument at the party 620 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: she was done, you know, and and there's a financial 621 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: component that's it's unclear, but you know what, when, what 622 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: and how she would get you know, the Woodward assets 623 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: for the Woodward a state, you know, would be significant, 624 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: you know, and so there's a lot of motive for 625 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: her to possibly take Billy out to preserve that down 626 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 2: the road. It's also possible, you know that what Anne said, 627 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 2: she heard something on the roof, she comes out, she's 628 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 2: sees a shadowy figure thinks it's a stranger inside the house, 629 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 2: shoots and kills a stranger, then recognizes that it's Billy, 630 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: and that some of the initial statements that are inconsistent 631 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 2: with the crime scene itself may just be a result 632 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: of the dynamics, the psychological and emotional trauma that she 633 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 2: most certainly would have experienced under that type of scenario. 634 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 2: And so it really is a tough case to come 635 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: down with a definitive answer. And so I would I 636 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: would say, I'm you know, I kind of lean towards 637 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: Anne purposefully killing Billy, but I can't I can't conclude that, 638 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: not with the state of the evidence and the circumstantial stuff. 639 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: It's just it is a complicated case on that front. 640 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: It is, and the aftermath is complicated too. So Anne 641 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: is not indicted, she is shunned by New York society. 642 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: And Elsie makes a statement. She says, and we know 643 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: how Elsie feels about Anne. She says, I know Anne 644 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: loved Billy very much and the shooting could be nothing 645 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: but an accident. And then Ann and the boys move 646 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: in with Elsie, and then Elsie sends the boys almost 647 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: immediately to a boarding school in Switzerland. And this is 648 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: all to protect the wood word name, I mean, these. 649 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: People, you know. But that's also part of the dynamic 650 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 2: of this, you know, these powerful elitist types of individuals, 651 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 2: is that there's there's a different perspective, you know, in 652 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: terms on how they approach their decision making because of 653 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: their status, preserving their status, their reputation, their their allies, 654 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: their you know, find their wealth that you know, probably 655 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: most people that are in our society, they don't think 656 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 2: about it, they don't worry about that kind of thing, 657 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 2: you know. I've I've been involved in some cases with 658 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 2: some significantly wealthy individuals, but the circumstances weren't such like 659 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: this to where there's any concern about reputation, you know, 660 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 2: they weren't at the level of the Woodwards for sure. 661 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: Well let me tell you what happens. There's a lot 662 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: that happens, and I'll try to shorthand it. So the 663 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: boys go to Switzerland, and eventually Ann goes to Switzerland 664 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: too to be around them. In Switzerland, she has a 665 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: fateful encounter with a man named Truman Capoti, who I know, 666 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: you know in cold Blood, which I think a lot 667 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: of people you know, associate with sort of the first 668 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: modern true crime book. I think that's true. I thought 669 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: is writing is amazing in Cold Blood, but a lot 670 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: of this is not accurate, and the victim's families hated 671 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: the way that he portrayed the clutters in the book. 672 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: So Truman Capote could be nasty. And what he did 673 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: was he was looking for another true crime story. Around 674 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine. In Cold Blood had been of course 675 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: a massive hit, and Billy Woodward's death, which involved you know, 676 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: high society sex, gossip, all the stuff that Capoti would 677 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: have loved, appear perfect for him. So after he met her, 678 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: he started referring to Anne Woodward as missus Bang Bang, 679 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: which caught on, and he named a character clearly based 680 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: a character in a book that he had written as 681 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: a follow up. And it was a tremendous amount of 682 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: public shaming for her, especially with Capoti because he was 683 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: so in with all the high society gossips, and so 684 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: this became, you know, a really really big deal. It 685 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: just decimated her character, and Capoti really used her, for 686 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: better or for worse. Whatever we think of whatever Anne 687 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: did or what that relationship was like, he really used 688 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: her as a way to elevate himself, but also just 689 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean reck her character. She was described as a murderess, 690 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: the jazzy little carrot top killer, and the high society 691 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: ladies said that she was brought up in some country slum. 692 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:03,240 Speaker 1: They called her inescapable, white track, and a slut. And 693 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: then you know, among Capote's friends they were talking about 694 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: Billy mocked as an anal oriented episcopalian. Weird insult but okay. 695 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: And you know, there was an excerpt from this book 696 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: that Anne was based on that was so offensive that 697 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: it ended up turning on Capoti, so it kind of 698 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: ruined that project for him. And it just becomes this 699 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,720 Speaker 1: unraveling of this family that goes on for several generations. 700 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy five, everybody's still alive after and during 701 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: years of gossip, a lot of it really spurred on 702 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 1: by Capoti and takes her own life by taking Cyanine. 703 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: Elsie is still alive, and she says, well, that's that 704 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: she shot my son and Truman Capoti murdered her, and 705 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: so now I suppose we don't have to worry about 706 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 1: that anymore. Boy is something else. And then I would 707 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: say in adulthood things were very rough. Both of an 708 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,439 Speaker 1: sons take their own lives too. 709 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:10,280 Speaker 2: Wow. 710 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: This is part of sensational true crime. And the reason 711 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: that I appreciate this story so much is that, to me, 712 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: it is one of those stories. It's like the epitome 713 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: of the disgustingness of what true crime can be, where 714 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: you're taking someone's life like what Capoti did with Anne 715 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: Woodward and turning it into this character and this narrative 716 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: when she's a real person and it just destroyed her. 717 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: Is what it sounds like. I am not a fan 718 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: of Truman Capoti, in case anybody doesn't know, I just 719 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: I just I did not like what he stood for. 720 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: And so this is this is the antithesis of what 721 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: you and I try to do on this show. Really is. 722 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've never read in Cold Blood. 723 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,760 Speaker 1: The writing. I love the writing. I think the writing 724 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: is great. It's just that he made up a lot 725 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: of stuff. And the Clutter family said he was awful 726 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: the way he treated Missus Clutter. Yeah, and they really 727 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: and they, you know, I mean they there was just 728 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: a documentary out about it. They have come out and 729 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: said this was not good. And I think Capoti had 730 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: a lot of regrets too. But I mean he is 731 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: definitely held up as one of the icons of true crime. 732 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 1: And I'm not refuting that. I'm just saying, look at 733 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: your icons sometimes. 734 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 2: Sure well, in many ways it sounds like he he 735 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 2: was in you know, lockstep barrel with the media at 736 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 2: the time. How salacious the media was covering these types 737 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 2: of cases, you know, and you know, the salaciousness sells, right, 738 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 2: So you know, especially hearing that there's not a lot 739 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 2: of factual stuff or there's you know, basically fiction in 740 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 2: Capote's book, I mean, that just turns me off. I 741 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,320 Speaker 2: don't want to read something like that, you know. I 742 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 2: go after you know, content that is going to be 743 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 2: informative about the case and not misleading. 744 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,359 Speaker 1: That's why when I teach my true crime class at 745 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: UT that at the very beginning, I've told you this 746 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: before the very beginning, I say, my goal is for you, 747 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: by the end of this class to at least recognize 748 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: what good content in this genre is. It doesn't mean 749 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: you're going to listen to it or read it or 750 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: pay any attention to it after this class, but I'm 751 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: going to make you listen to it right now, and 752 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to recognize it later on. 753 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. Everybody, 754 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: everybody I know who is a high quality journalist or 755 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: somebody who produces this content says things where people are like, 756 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: wait what. And the intent though, with everything that we do, 757 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,240 Speaker 1: I think is always to be good to the victim, 758 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: to be good to the survivors and the families, and 759 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: to just educate people on things. And so this is 760 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: that case when you have, you know, encounter somebody that 761 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: has that name recognition where I just kind of go, God, 762 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: that was He's gross. That was gross. And I've read 763 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 1: a lot of accounts of that, and so you know, 764 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm not here to slam Truman Capoti, but I am 765 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: here to say that sometimes you know people who are 766 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: in history and you just think, are you know, incredible 767 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: and we're so thankful for parts of it? Yes, But 768 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: but there were problems and there always will be problems 769 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: with true crime reporting, I think. 770 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and kind of getting back to the 771 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 2: Woodward case, you know, I'd be curious, you know, if 772 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 2: they actually documented Billie's body adequately and good autopsy and 773 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 2: everything else, you know, good photos of the crime scene. 774 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 2: You know, I'd be one. I'd be wondering if I 775 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 2: could spot something that could you know, either kind of 776 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 2: tip the scales if you if you will, if and 777 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 2: accidentally shot him, or if it was intentional. 778 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean interesting to know. I think, you know, 779 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: I come back to Ann of course, the boys who 780 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 1: were totally innocent in this, the two sons who didn't 781 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: hear a thing, by the way, I mean, every time 782 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: people say how could somebody have not heard anything, these 783 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: are two boys with I mean they didn't hear a 784 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: shotgun blast and two of them sure, and the Ruckus 785 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: and so really though, if you look at Anne, you 786 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: know there's some things wrong with their marriage obviously, but 787 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: we really don't know if anything, if she had done anything, 788 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 1: whether she was a gold digger or any of that, 789 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, any of those things. That the way that 790 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: her life turned because of a couple of people she 791 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,399 Speaker 1: was involved with, to me, is. 792 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 2: Just so sad for sure. Well, Kate, this was an 793 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 2: interesting case. Thank you. 794 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: I know you're ready to go. Usually you like tell 795 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,760 Speaker 1: you're like, I've kind of stop talking about this flipped case. 796 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: I know, well, you know there are cases that stick 797 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,479 Speaker 1: with you, and you know, I think I know most 798 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: of our cases stick with you, but I'll have something 799 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: fresh for you for. 800 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 2: Sure, all right, as always looking forward to it. 801 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: Fe This has been an exactly right production for our 802 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: Sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com 803 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. 804 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson. 805 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 806 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,879 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 807 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 808 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer. 809 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 810 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod. 811 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 812 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 813 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now. 814 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,880 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's 815 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now. 816 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 817 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.