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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: D four VD aka David Alan Burke whines he has

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Speaker 2: money woes.

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Speaker 3: Boo hoo, this is.

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Speaker 2: A grand jury homicide indictment. Looms timing, timing, timing. A

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Speaker 2: home incinerator found still in.

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Speaker 3: The box at D four vd's home.

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Speaker 2: Was it purchased at the time of Celeste's death? I'm

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. David is finally being considered

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Speaker 2: as a suspect in the death teen girls. Celeste found

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Speaker 2: decomposing in his vehicle.

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Speaker 3: Was she dimembered? Was she frozen?

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Speaker 4: Was she decapitated?

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Speaker 2: What was going on in that household up to this comicide?

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, we learned that LAPD is focusing

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Speaker 2: in on the time a home incinerator was purchased, straight

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Speaker 2: out to Professor Forensicks Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit

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Speaker 2: podcast Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan. Jo Scott, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us tonight.

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Speaker 3: A home andcinerator? I mean, who has a home and cinerator?

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Speaker 3: Have you seen those things? They're huge? They're huge. Why

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Speaker 3: do you need a home incinerator.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. The fact that there is a burn cage that's

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Speaker 5: even being alluded to here, Nancy, is quite quite fascinating.

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Speaker 5: And here's why. A burn cage can burn up to

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Speaker 5: sixteen hundred degrees fahrenheit, Nancy. That's in the same neighborhood

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Speaker 5: as an actual prematory, all right. With a crematory which

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Speaker 5: works on natural asked, it has to be sustained for

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Speaker 5: about two to three hours. That can render down an

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Speaker 5: entire human remain, all right, If that's the goal here

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Speaker 5: with this thing, there are actually cases out there where

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Speaker 5: burn pages have in fact been used to render down

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Speaker 5: human remains. I'm not saying that that's what's involved here,

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Speaker 5: but the fact that there is one input close proximity

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Speaker 5: to where is certainly from an investigative standpoint very compel.

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Speaker 2: Joining us now, the man who actually first sees the

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Speaker 2: home incinerator and the mansion of David Burke D four

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Speaker 2: VD joining me right now is a now renowned private investigator,

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Speaker 2: Steve Fisher. Steve, I know that you were hired by

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Speaker 2: the owner of the D four VD mansion to find

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Speaker 2: out what the hay was going on inside the mansion

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Speaker 2: after Celeste's body is found. Where did you see a

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Speaker 2: h home incinerator?

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Speaker 6: The home in cinerator was actually inside the house. It

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Speaker 6: wasn't even in the garage, and it was still packaged.

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Speaker 6: But it's a fifty five pound you know device and

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Speaker 6: which serves over at that house and so immediately raised,

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Speaker 6: you know, huge alarm bells with us, and you know,

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Speaker 6: especially considering found in the tesla, and you got to

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Speaker 6: wonder what the plans were ultimately to maybe get rid

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Speaker 6: of permanently.

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Speaker 3: I got a question for you, Stave Fisher.

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Speaker 2: You state that the home incinerator was still packaged.

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Speaker 3: Did you take photos of it?

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Speaker 7: Yes? Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: Do you know what kind of incinerator it is? The

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Speaker 2: name brand?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's made by a company called doctor Burn, and you

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Speaker 6: know their whole advertisement is that it burns at sixteen

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Speaker 6: hundred degrees and you know human cremations are done at

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Speaker 6: fourteen hundred degrees. So this is meant to you know,

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Speaker 6: reduce things including animal carcasses and whatnot, and.

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Speaker 7: This is something you would typically find out a farm.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've got a question for you.

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Speaker 2: Why are you saying it's used for animal carcasses. I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying that it's not, but did you see anything

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Speaker 2: on the package to.

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Speaker 3: Inform you of that.

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Speaker 6: So as soon as we found it on the outside,

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Speaker 6: he clearly says doctor Burne. And we went right to

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Speaker 6: their website and they're advertising and other people that you

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Speaker 6: know using it on YouTube.

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Speaker 7: It shows that that that's what it's for. Now.

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Speaker 6: It's not just right now, carcases, concenterate literally anything. But

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Speaker 6: this is something that's not even legal in the Hollywood

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Speaker 6: Hills because the fire ordinances and whatnot. And then you know,

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Speaker 6: we also found it, you know, with the with the chainsaw,

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Speaker 6: and so you know, there's just a lot of questions

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Speaker 6: and it just it's a horrible look, you know.

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Speaker 3: So let me understand Stea. Fisher, hired by the.

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Speaker 2: Owner of Burke's mansion where he was renting it. You

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Speaker 2: find a home and centerator. What I find very critical

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Speaker 2: two things. If you go to the as you're calling it,

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Speaker 2: Doctor burn it's dr.

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Speaker 3: Original burn Cage.

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Speaker 2: There are YouTube videos about burning animal carcasses. So if

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Speaker 2: I looked up home and senerator to burn carcas.

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Speaker 3: That would pop up curious. So right there, and I'll

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Speaker 3: circle back.

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Speaker 2: To you, Brian Fitzgibbons, there needs to be a full

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Speaker 2: on digital search as to whether that query was ever

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Speaker 2: typed into anybody's phone, laptop, iPad.

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Speaker 3: You name it. But okay, so I know that pops up.

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Speaker 2: But what I find very critical, Steve, is the date

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Speaker 2: of the purchase.

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Speaker 3: For instance, let me just throw this at you.

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Speaker 2: You remember Brian Coburger, of course, who goes on Amazon

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Speaker 2: and buys a dagger, a k bar knife that was

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Speaker 2: used to murder for innocent University Idaho students, and his

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Speaker 2: Amazon search was uncovered and the purchase and where he

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Speaker 2: looked to buy a replacement after the murders. We know,

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Speaker 2: for instance, Coltmam Laurie Valo goes onto Amazon and buys

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Speaker 2: a wedding dress, a groom's outfit, and a ring before

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Speaker 2: her new husband's wife is killed. You know, Amazon is

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Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. So I'm curious, Steve Fisher, when the

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Speaker 2: burn cage was purchased. We've heard about the burning cage.

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Speaker 2: What we haven't heard about is what does it prove?

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Speaker 2: Is it probative? It was still in the package, It

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Speaker 2: wasn't used to destroy her body. But if I can

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Speaker 2: draw nexus between the time of her day and the

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Speaker 2: time that burn cage was purchased.

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Speaker 3: I got something. What about it, Fisher?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So we don't have the exact date, but it

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Speaker 6: just so happened that on January nineteenth, the owner had

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Speaker 6: an inspection done of the house was very thorough with

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Speaker 6: photographs at that time. We know that the burn age

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Speaker 6: was not at the house in January nineteenth, and so

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Speaker 6: sometime between the nineteenth and you know when the search

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Speaker 6: won't happened in September is when this arrived. And you know,

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Speaker 6: it's also around the time that the new tesla arrived

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Speaker 6: on February first. So there seemed to be a lot

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Speaker 6: happening at the end of January, beginning of February, but

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Speaker 6: as of January nineteenth it was not there, but after,

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Speaker 6: you know, as of September it was there. So it

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Speaker 6: appears it was ordered between those dates.

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Speaker 2: Okay, joining me as I said an All Star panel, Scott,

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Speaker 2: You've got a question for Fisher.

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Speaker 3: Scott.

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Speaker 2: I got to warn you about one thing, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it true, Steve Fisher that you were called in

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Speaker 2: front of the grand jury?

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Speaker 3: Can you confirm that.

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Speaker 7: I can't say anything about or in jury?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if you had not been called, you would

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Speaker 2: have said no, So I'm going to take that as

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Speaker 2: a yes. You know, I've got a funny feeling that

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor is going to be extremely irritated with you

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Speaker 2: because you found evidence that the LAPD had not found yet.

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Speaker 3: And I'm referring.

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Speaker 2: Specifically to the tesla with the dead body in the

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Speaker 2: trunk of a little girl, Celeste Rivus. You found that,

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Speaker 2: and you scoured the neighborhood and got the ring doorbell

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Speaker 2: cam in the surveillance camp and could show that the

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Speaker 2: car was being moved around the neighborhood so nobody would

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Speaker 2: complain it's parked out in front of their house. You

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Speaker 2: even caught one of the drivers face. You still haven't

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Speaker 2: revealed to me who that is. And LAPD or the

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Speaker 2: DA's office didn't find any of that.

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Speaker 3: So I guess he's a little ill with you right now.

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Speaker 2: That said, I have a source telling me you were

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Speaker 2: called in front of the grand jury. Whether you confirm

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Speaker 2: it or deny it, okay, Joe Scott, The point being

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Speaker 2: he may not be able to answer some of our questions, but.

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Speaker 3: Have at it.

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Speaker 5: No, I'll try to make it as general as possible. Hey, Steve,

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Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan, I got a question for you. I've

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Speaker 5: been through this area before only as a tourist. I

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Speaker 5: could never afford, you know, to you know, even know

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Speaker 5: anyone there high dollar area. If you rent a place

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Speaker 5: up there, it would seem odd that it would be

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Speaker 5: a come incumbent upon that person to do their own

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Speaker 5: landscaping work. And I'm fascinated about this chainsaw and this

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Speaker 5: idea that I'm sure the shrubs are lovely, are you

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Speaker 5: you know? And you've got this from what I'm understanding,

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Speaker 5: unopen chain saw there. What would be the purpose of

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Speaker 5: someone happiness thing? And when did it show up?

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Speaker 6: Well, so you nailed it exactly because I've heard some

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Speaker 6: people say that, well, you know, people have chainsaws to

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Speaker 6: do yardwork and trim trees. This was a rental that

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Speaker 6: the owner was completely in charge of all the maintenance

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Speaker 6: including the pool, you know, the tree trimming, everything that

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Speaker 6: this was plug and play. They they didn't have to

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Speaker 6: do any of their own yard works. So there's no

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Speaker 6: reason for it to be there. And it showed up

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Speaker 6: again after January nineteenth. It was not there because there

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Speaker 6: was photo documentation of that walkthrough and inspection and now

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Speaker 6: one inspection, so it showed up after, you know, between

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Speaker 6: you know, the time in the search January nineteenth and

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Speaker 6: the time the search warrant. But you're absolutely right, there's

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Speaker 6: they're they're not responsible for any of that maintenance. And

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Speaker 6: I can't think of any reason that they would need

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Speaker 6: to chainsaw.

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Speaker 2: Joining us now, Melissa McCarty, investigative journalist and author of

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Speaker 2: the Making of a Crime Reporter, Melissa, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us.

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Speaker 3: You have a question for Fisher, go ahead, I do

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Speaker 3: hasty have.

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Speaker 4: Two questions for you. One is who were the two

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Speaker 4: items addressed to? Was it the owner of the house

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Speaker 4: or somebody else? And also, it's my understanding the LAPDD

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Speaker 4: they did not take those items as evidence, But do

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Speaker 4: you know if there was any kind of brushing of

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Speaker 4: fingerprints to see if David or somebody else in his

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Speaker 4: inner circle at one point laid their hands on those

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Speaker 4: boxes or collected those boxes touched them to link the

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Speaker 4: two Very good question.

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Speaker 7: So they did not take the items.

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Speaker 6: We contacted them and asked them specifically about it, and

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Speaker 6: they told us that they photographed them, but they did not.

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Speaker 7: Fingerprint them.

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Speaker 6: And you know, there was no dustrating or on them,

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Speaker 6: and they didn't appear to illumine all them either because

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Speaker 6: they hadn't been removed from the packaging, so as in

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Speaker 6: as far as they were addressed to, they were addressed

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Speaker 6: in a fake name, somebody.

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Speaker 7: That did not live at the residence.

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Speaker 6: But they accepted the packages at the residence, and we believe,

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Speaker 6: just from the investigation, we'd be able to do that.

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Speaker 6: They used prepaid gift cards to purchase the Uh.

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Speaker 2: Whoa wha wait wait wait wait, you're giving me all

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Speaker 2: new information.

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, are you telling me? Have you told

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Speaker 3: anybody else this? Are you telling me?

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Speaker 2: The home incinerator was addressed to a fake name, but

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Speaker 2: somebody in that house accepted the package?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Correct? How do you know that? Did you see the name?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 3: What was the name? How do you know it was fake?

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Speaker 6: Well, when I say fake name, it is it's somebody

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Speaker 6: that does not live at the residence.

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Speaker 7: It's the name of a female that does not live

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Speaker 7: at the residence.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, they accepted, they signed for the package through DHL.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm learning so much right now.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this guy did not go run down to

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Speaker 2: home depot and.

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Speaker 3: Buy a home incinerator.

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Speaker 2: That means somebody went online Steve Fisher and ordered it

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Speaker 2: would you agree.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, And I'm sure those records are very subpoenable.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you know.

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Speaker 2: Danny Ruben joining me right now, veterman criminal defense attorney,

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Speaker 2: founder of the Ruben Law Firm. Danny, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us tonight.

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Speaker 3: I was ill.

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Speaker 2: I was getting a chest pain that was radiating up

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Speaker 2: into my teeth when I was hearing Steve Fisher talking

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Speaker 2: about Nope, they did not seize the home incinerator, they

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Speaker 2: did not seize the chainsaw, they did not fingerprint them,

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Speaker 2: they did not illumin all them. I mean, that's bad,

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Speaker 2: bad police work right there, that they just took pictures

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Speaker 2: of them, because you know, juries they want to look

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Speaker 2: at it, they want to touch it, hold it, feel it,

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Speaker 2: smell it, the whole shebang. But then I was heartened

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Speaker 2: when I heard him say it was sent to a

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Speaker 2: fake name, to somebody that doesn't live there, to this address,

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Speaker 2: and it was accepted by someone in that home, which

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Speaker 2: tells me there is a digital trail. Danny Rubert, it

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Speaker 2: proves a lot.

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Speaker 8: I mean, what it can prove is the account that

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Speaker 8: ordered it. It doesn't necessarily prove who ordered it. I

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Speaker 8: mean when I look at a case like this, I

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Speaker 8: look at who's got the most to lose here. David

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Speaker 8: had to know that if he is the one that

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Speaker 8: would be culpable for this, he'd be the first one

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Speaker 8: to be looked at. My question is who's the second

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Speaker 8: or who's the third? That's the person I'd want to investigate.

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Speaker 3: As his defense attorney, you would want to investigate them

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Speaker 3: to what.

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Speaker 2: Just let's pretend from moment that you're David Anthony Burke's lawyer.

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Speaker 3: You want to look at everybody around him.

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Speaker 2: So let's just be real here, so you can pull

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Speaker 2: a sood some of the dude did at defense. So

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Speaker 2: you're looking around at everybody else? Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 3: Just be straight?

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Speaker 8: Well, my question is what if someone else actually did

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Speaker 8: do it? I mean, his two managers are around him

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Speaker 8: all the time. They're the ones that are economically invested.

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Speaker 8: Robert Morgan Roth was actually, as far as I've read,

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Speaker 8: called to testify at the grand jury and he was

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Speaker 8: recorded saying, why didn't I call the police? Yes, the manager?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you know they tried and it worked. In

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Speaker 2: the top mom Casey Anthony murder case, when she got

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Speaker 2: her mother sending Anthony to go on the stand under

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Speaker 2: oath and fall on her sword and take the blame

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Speaker 2: for the highly damning searches for how to make chloroform.

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Speaker 2: She said that she vote chlorophyll, not chloroform, and that

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Speaker 2: the computer spell checked her because she wanted to get

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Speaker 2: rid of bamboo in the backyard and made it no

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Speaker 2: sense at all. That said, it worked in that case,

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Speaker 2: so I can't poo poo it that quickly. Brian Fitzgibbons

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Speaker 2: is joining US now Director Operations usp A Nationwide Security Brian,

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Speaker 2: you also, in your search for people all around the world,

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Speaker 2: are an expert at digital forensics.

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Speaker 3: Brian.

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Speaker 2: What should they be doing right now to determine who

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Speaker 2: ordered the burncage?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 10: I want to applaud Steve Fisher Nancy in the work

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Speaker 10: that he's gone and identifying that these the purchase was

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Speaker 10: made with these gift cards, that it was delivered to

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Speaker 10: a fictitious name or a name that wasn't at the residence.

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Speaker 10: You know, this is going to provide investigators with a

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Speaker 10: good foothold to begin that forensic search and subpoena these

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Speaker 10: purchase records of what date this burn cage was purchased on,

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Speaker 10: what IP addressed was the system access. They're going to

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Speaker 10: be able to get quite a bit of information off

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Speaker 10: of that purchase, and I think that you will see

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Speaker 10: that provided that this most word to trial.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what.

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Speaker 2: You brought up another issue, Brian Fitzgibbons, Thank you. I

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Speaker 2: was so taken by the fact that this was obviously

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Speaker 2: ordered online. I wonder they're going to be able to

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Speaker 2: find where the purchaser watched that YouTube video Fisher just

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Speaker 2: told us about how the home fire cage can't burn

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Speaker 2: dead carcasses. Question to you, Steve Fisher, owner, founder of

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Speaker 2: Steve Fisher SF Investigations, state, how do you know that

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Speaker 2: it was bought with gift cards?

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Speaker 7: So I want to be clear.

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Speaker 6: From what we've uncovered, it looks to us like it

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Speaker 6: was purchased with gift cards from you know, the communications

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Speaker 6: that we've had. I can't say that one percent for certain,

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Speaker 6: but it appears that that's how it was done. But

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Speaker 6: you know, we haven't.

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Speaker 2: Kind of gift cards place, say Amazon, what kind of

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Speaker 2: gift cards American Express home depot.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, one of those you go to Target and buy

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Speaker 6: like a prepaid visa or amex or whatever, you know,

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Speaker 6: like that just something it doesn't have your name attached

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Speaker 6: to it, although you have to I guess technically register it,

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Speaker 6: but you can.

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Speaker 7: Again, you can use that in anybody's name.

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Speaker 6: But I'll bet you that there is an email address

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Speaker 6: that they formed this person's name, this fake name so,

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Speaker 6: and then that'll probably reside on one of those computers,

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Speaker 6: and you know, I think they'll be able to tie

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Speaker 6: it all back to them. I don't think these are

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Speaker 6: geniuses by any means.

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Speaker 2: You said that you can't say gift cards will us,

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Speaker 2: but that you have personally done. You and your team

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Speaker 2: have done investigations that lead you to believe that gift

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Speaker 2: cards were used. You're telling me the gift cards were

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Speaker 2: not to a specific store such as Home Depot or Lows.

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Speaker 2: You're telling me they were of the variety that you

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Speaker 2: can go to Target and get like American Express or

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Speaker 2: Visa gift cards.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 7: Yes? Right, yes, which.

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Speaker 2: Leads me to believe that they were bought at Target.

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Speaker 2: Where they bought at Target?

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Speaker 6: Oh, I honestly have no idea about that. I'm just

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Speaker 6: saying that, you know, like they're a seller of those.

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Speaker 6: I don't know where they bought the the gift cards at,

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Speaker 6: but they were delivered you know, through a you know

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Speaker 6: delivers like you order online, and it appears that they

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Speaker 6: use DHL to ship this you know item.

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Speaker 3: To ship the gift cards, or to ship the burn cage, the.

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Speaker 7: Burn cage, the burn cage. So I think it's gonna

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Speaker 7: be fairly easy.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Karen Stark joining me, forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma

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Speaker 2: expert consultant at Karenstark dot com. Oh what a tangled

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Speaker 2: web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

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Speaker 3: Can't you just see?

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Speaker 2: You know, there's going to be video, right, they have

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Speaker 2: cameras everywhere, specifically on the registers. Can't you just see

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Speaker 2: this merry troop flinking into a store and getting all

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Speaker 2: these gift cards, which is they think so sneaky because

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Speaker 2: it's not in their name. I wonder if they've paid

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Speaker 2: in cash or did they charge it?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I hope they charged it.

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Speaker 2: At trying so hard to cover up, yet leaving a

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Speaker 2: trail a mile wide for somebody like Steve Fisher to find.

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Speaker 11: It's very clear that these people were disorganized, Nancy. I mean,

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Speaker 11: nobody really understood that. How could you leave even the

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Speaker 11: body in a car and keep moving the car around

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Speaker 11: and not think that somebody would notice it, especially where

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Speaker 11: they were. And if you consider the fact that she

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Speaker 11: was dismembered, and then you also look at the fact

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Speaker 11: that someone ordered a chainsaw, somebody ordered this burn incinerator,

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Speaker 11: it's very telling that there was intent, or at least

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Speaker 11: it seems that way that they turned this body. It

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Speaker 11: was dehumanized and they were looking for any way. According

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Speaker 11: to me, it seems who get rid of the body

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Speaker 11: without even thinking about this as a person.

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Speaker 2: Back to Steve Fisher, following up on what Karen Stark,

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Speaker 2: psychologist said, Steve Fisher, isn't it true that d FORVD

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Speaker 2: aka David David.

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Speaker 3: Allenberg was going on tour?

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Speaker 2: So if Celeste was already dead, they wait and they

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Speaker 2: wait and they wait, and the home senerator doesn't show.

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Speaker 2: What they're like, Hell, you know, put it in the trunk.

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Speaker 2: That's going to be the argument. Of course, they're all

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Speaker 2: presumed innocent until proven guilty. So finally, you know what,

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Speaker 2: back up and punt and she ends up in the trunk.

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Speaker 3: Can't you just see that playing out? Fisher? Then the

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Speaker 3: incinerator comes a day late. The dollar short. She'd use

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Speaker 3: fat X, but no, they use DHL. What about it? Fisher?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, personally, I think the incinerator was already there. I

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Speaker 6: think this became a case of them chickening out. You know,

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Speaker 6: they or whoever was supposed to do it didn't do it,

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Speaker 6: and then they just ran out of time. I mean

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Speaker 6: this and this is what baffles me about case. We're

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Speaker 6: talking about people that are perfectly idiots. And now, how

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Speaker 6: how is it taking to spenty months to be able

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Speaker 6: to put this case together to become chargeable because these

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Speaker 6: are not people that pulled off a perfect crime. And

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Speaker 6: this is the part that really baffles me is it's

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Speaker 6: so sloppy, yet there's apparently not enough to charge them yet.

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Speaker 7: You know, I don't understand PI.

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Speaker 12: Steve Fisher claims he found a burn cage, incinerator and

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Speaker 12: a chainsaw inside the home rented for Burke by his manager.

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Speaker 12: Employed by the property owner to determine what took place

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Speaker 12: in his house. Fisher uncovered the items still in their

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Speaker 12: original packaging and were unused. Incinerator is illegal in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 12: delivered to the residents under a fake name, and claims

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Speaker 12: to reach a temperature of one thousand and six hundred degrees.

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Speaker 4: We don't even know really when Celeste was last seen alive.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how long she was dead for police

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Speaker 2: sources believe Celeste was killed back in the spring.

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Speaker 3: Her body found in his Tesla truck.

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Speaker 2: She's dead, dismembered, turning into nothing but gow.

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Speaker 3: At first we were told, oh, the grand.

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Speaker 2: Jury is just conducting an investigation. Not true anymore.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 12: A recent report said the grand jury hearing testimony about

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Speaker 12: the death of Celeste Reeves was an investigative grand jury

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Speaker 12: that helps gather evidence but does not indict. Now new

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Speaker 12: information indicates Burke will face murder charges for the death

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Speaker 12: of Celeste, and the grand jury hearing the case right

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Speaker 12: now is going to be asked to hand down an indictment.

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Speaker 12: An investigative grand jury can be useful to subpoena and

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Speaker 12: then force uncooperative witnesses to testify, and sources now say

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Speaker 12: the grand jury hearing witnesses is actually one that will

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Speaker 12: vote on indictments. And these sources indicate prosecutor Beth Silverman,

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Speaker 12: among others, believes Burke was involved in the death of Celeste.

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Speaker 3: So let me understand.

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Speaker 2: To Dave mack joining US crime stories, investigative reporter, Dave,

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Speaker 2: we were first told this grand jury was just an

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Speaker 2: investigative grand jury that was gathering evidence on celeste death.

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Speaker 2: Now we're learning and indictment looms and it is a

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Speaker 2: homicide indictment. I never had any doubt that this grand

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Speaker 2: jury was going to seek charges.

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Speaker 1: Do I have that right, Dave?

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Speaker 2: Matt We're expecting a grand jury indictment to come down.

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Speaker 9: That's what everything is pointing towards Nancy right now, expecting

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Speaker 9: an indictment to be handed down for homicide.

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Speaker 2: Danny Rubin, you have dealt with many, many grand jury indictments.

442
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're a former prosecutor, but were

443
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: you a former prosecutor at any point?

444
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 8: Danny, no defense attorney from the very beginning, but I've

445
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 8: dealt with the aftermaths.

446
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm sorry to hear that.

447
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: Long story short, if the grand jury is meeting to indict,

448
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 2: not just investigate, that means they have to pick a charge, Ruben,

449
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: They've got to go with it. If it's homicide, murder one,

450
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: murder two volunteer or involuntary, and then of course there's

451
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: fell any murder.

452
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: They've got to pick between those charges.

453
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: They could indict in the alternative, which means a murder one,

454
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 2: with a murder two and a voluntary or even involuntary

455
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 2: all in the same indictment.

456
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 3: So a jury can pick.

457
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: So if they're going to go with murder one, go

458
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: with me, Ruben, go with me. That means they either

459
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: either got the cod from the body which was decomposed,

460
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: and they know there was either a gunshot wound, a

461
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: broken hyoid bone to suggest asphyxiation, something in toxicology.

462
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: A knife nick to one of the bones. They've either got.

463
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 2: It from the body itself, or they've got a witness

464
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: to say she was murdered and this is what happened.

465
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: They've got to indict on those few choices. Murder one,

466
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: murder two, voluntary, involuntary. That's all the choices there are

467
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: for homicide. To do murder one or murder two, they

468
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: had to find something from the body or a witness.

469
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 3: What do you think.

470
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 8: I think if they had something from the body, they

471
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 8: would have been bringing charges a lot sooner. It seems

472
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 8: like if they're they're looking into indicting for homicide, whichever

473
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 8: one they picked, they probably got some information from a

474
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 8: witness that they questioned over the past month or two.

475
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 8: I know they're going to be calling back witnesses in February.

476
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 8: That's what I've read. So it seems like they're still

477
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 8: trying to find more evidence. But if they're looking to

478
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 8: switch that investigation now, it's probably because of something someone said,

479
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 8: possibly in conjunction with something they found on the body.

480
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: Dave Max, speaking of witnesses before the grand jury, isn't

481
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: it true that witnesses at least one has refused to come.

482
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: To the grand jury? Isn't that true?

483
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 9: Absolutely true, Nancy, And they've gone so far as to

484
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 9: threaten to arrest her if you won't come in.

485
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: Danny Rube, I'm just wondering. Let's just put together the

486
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: pieces here. Reuben, a witness, stated that she refused to

487
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: come to the grand jury. An order went out to

488
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: either bring her in, have her arrested, give her immunity

489
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: if she was facing charges herself.

490
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: Therefore, she would.

491
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: Have no reason to take the Fifth Amendment from the

492
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: grand jury or charge her with contempt. If you're a target,

493
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 2: you can be given immunity and forced to testify because

494
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 2: you have no Fifth Amendment right to remain silent if

495
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: you're not going to be charged, or if you're just

496
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: a witness, you can be held in contempt and jailed

497
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: until you've testified. Okay, So that word goes out and

498
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: the next thing you know, an indictment is being handed down.

499
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: Sounds to me like they got the witness. The witness testified,

500
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: and now we're looking at a homicide indictment.

501
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 5: That could be it.

502
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 8: I mean, like I said before, it could be something

503
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 8: conjunction with what they found in the body. It could

504
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 8: be some combination of testimonies. But this is why we

505
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 8: have subpoena powers, because both the prosecution and defense, the

506
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 8: prosecution and grand jury defense at trial and preliminary hearing,

507
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 8: we need that to bring in witnesses who can testify,

508
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 8: and many times we can't get what we need without

509
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 8: those witnesses. So it's a very big stick that we

510
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 8: have to bring witnesses in that we need.

511
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: Danny Rubin, you have a question for Steve Fisher.

512
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, Steve, when you investigated the home where David was

513
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 8: purportedly living, was there anything else of note that you found,

514
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 8: anything still in its wrapper, anything that was looked like

515
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 8: it had not been taken out of its packaging.

516
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 7: No, besides those two items.

517
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 6: You know, there were some There was a couple full

518
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 6: respirators almost like gas masks at the house.

519
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 7: But they were out of the package.

520
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 6: Don't know exactly what they were for, but those were

521
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 6: the two, you know, most most damning things.

522
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 7: For sure.

523
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 6: There was a lot of stuff left behind that was

524
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 6: a value, such as the memory card with all the photos,

525
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 6: but nothing that really was like what would that be

526
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:18,479
Speaker 6: doing here?

527
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jackson State University,

528
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: Star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

529
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 3: Joe Scott, we're learning a lot tonight. Okay.

530
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: We knew that there was a chainsaw, we knew that

531
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: there was a home incinerator.

532
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: We didn't know.

533
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: That it had been purchased with gift cards anonymously and

534
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: that had been sent under a fake name. Now we

535
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: know that purchase can be traced and we can find out,

536
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: hopefully if there's a video, who bought the gift cards.

537
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: And where and when?

538
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: What does this mean to you forensically, what can we

539
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: prove with this new evidence?

540
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 5: Well, I think certainly with the gift cards in particular,

541
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 5: because that is something that can be digitally traced. And

542
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 5: just let me remind everybody these gift cards can be

543
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 5: picked up anywhere. It doesn't have to be at a

544
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 5: big store. You can walk into a gas station and

545
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 5: buy these things. So, but the upside with.

546
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: Scott the location where the gift card. They're like, they

547
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: got numbers on them, like guns. For Pete's sake, you

548
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: can find the car.

549
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it gets very and the digital evidence here

550
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 5: gets very granular, and so it's going to be very specific.

551
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 5: You can put a really tight pin in this thing. Also,

552
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 5: you know the initial purchase, the utility of these things,

553
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 5: and then you track along with the purchases that are made.

554
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 5: Now I'm going to use a term here, and I'm

555
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 5: sure you'll slap me down for saying this. I got

556
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 5: to tell you, Nancy, from a legal standpoint, the things

557
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 5: I've heard attorneys say in the past with these boxes

558
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 5: of open to items. When you think about the chainsaw

559
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 5: and this burn box and these sorts of things, this

560
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 5: almost smacks of like an incohatee of fence. I don't know.

561
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 5: I think i'd like to know your opinion of that.

562
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 5: But there's planning going on, perhaps if they can prove that,

563
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 5: and maybe there is intent, but they just couldn't complete

564
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 5: the act here, going back to what Steve had said earlier,

565
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 5: this seems like the I don't know, old reference here,

566
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 5: the Apple Dumpling Gang. They just can't get anything right.

567
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 5: They're just kind of falling on their faces. No one

568
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: can pull the trigger. There's not a leader. It's just

569
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 5: like they push this thing off in the ether and

570
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 5: maybe she'll just disappear. I don't know, because I got

571
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 5: to tell you, out of all the cases I've covered,

572
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 5: I've never seen anything. First off, take this long. You've

573
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 5: got a lot of elements here of movement with the

574
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 5: body going to Karen's point of disrespecting the remains to

575
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 5: this point, and then you have all these other elements

576
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 5: where no one could finish the job.

577
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: Okay, you refer to inco hate from the Latin verb

578
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: inco heir, which means in its inception, in its beginning,

579
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: just starting. So I see this if any of this

580
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: is borne out by the facts, and again David Bird

581
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The beginning of the

582
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: destruction of the body went because the burn cage and

583
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: the chainsaw, and we do know she was dismembered. Where

584
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: you come in, they obviously did.

585
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: Not use the chainsaw.

586
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: Hey, Steve Fisher, was the chainsaw also still in the package?

587
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 7: It had the protective shield over the blade.

588
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 6: It wasn't in the n actual package, but it's but

589
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 6: it had the protective shield over it.

590
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so it had never been used, which suggests that

591
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: it's new. And we keep talking about, hey, do you

592
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: do your own landscaping? Maybe obviously he didn't do his

593
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: own landscaping, but if he had a landscape that was

594
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: going to use that, I mean, that.

595
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: Could be a defense.

596
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: But it was never used, which suggests it also was

597
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: just bought and will probably be traceable. That said, in

598
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: co hate, I see it as evidence of destruction of

599
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: the body, tampering with a corpse, which is also a felony,

600
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: which is a separate offense from the homicide itself. I

601
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: think we're going to see a very involved and intricate

602
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: indictment which deals with the actual death of Celeste and

603
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: disposing of her body. And you're right, Joe Scott, the

604
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: attempt to get rid of her.

605
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 3: Body was in co hate.

606
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: It had just started and it's leaving a trail. The

607
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: cover up will likely be in disha proof of the crime.

608
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: Itself. Wouldn't you agree with that?

609
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: Maybe they just got tired of waiting to get all

610
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: of the items, the burncake, the chainsaw, went just put

611
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 2: them in the trunk man.

612
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And I think that that's probably the case here.

613
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 5: There's also one more issue to this, and this is

614
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 5: rather gruesome. It's not that the rest of this hasn't been.

615
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 5: It's just that who's going to be who's going to join,

616
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 5: who's going to draw the short straw here, who's going

617
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 5: to put this cage together, which, by the way, is

618
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 5: very easy to assemble. Who's going to put the thing together?

619
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 5: And then who's going to finish up the process of

620
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 5: rendering down her body to the point where it's manageable

621
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 5: to go in here? And also they think, oh my lord,

622
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 5: this is going to create a smell that no one

623
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: is going to be able to escape.

624
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 13: A second person has been linked to the death of Celestrevus.

625
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 13: Attorney Mark Erragos claims the suspects phone and social media

626
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 13: data was triangulated by LAPD homicide detectives to the spot

627
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 13: on the same time frame Revus died.

628
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 14: They got a chart at LAPD that you would not believe.

629
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 14: They've got this thing down to a timeline that's almost

630
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 14: by the minutes triangulated to the location.

631
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 7: If you can believe that.

632
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 14: And it's not just one source. When I say triangulated,

633
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 14: it's media, social media, cell phone, tesla, other and I'll qualify.

634
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 14: All I'll say is other kind of GPS tracking devices

635
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 14: you're seeing.

636
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: Harvey Levans to Angryman podcast with Mark Gergo's veteran defense attorney.

637
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: I mean Melissa McCarty joining us investigative journalist. All of

638
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: the people that lived in that home or were in

639
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: and out frequently can be identified. Fisher has video of

640
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: the person moving the tesla around the neighborhood.

641
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: He knows who that is. He saw the face.

642
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: He's not saying so, don't you know that what Garages

643
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: and Levin said is true.

644
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: They've got it down to a timeline by the minute.

645
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: You think any one of those D four VD cohorts

646
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: is going to go anywhere without their phone or their

647
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: Apple Watch or their NAV system in their car. Oh No,

648
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 2: they travel as a pack and they're all traveling together.

649
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: Melissa, Nancy, I think we're going to see more than

650
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: one person charged in this case. And that's what's so

651
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 4: great about the grand jury phase. To me, this comes

652
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 4: across as a case where a lot of people aren't forthcoming.

653
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 4: They don't want to talk, so you need subpoenas to

654
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 4: force them to get on the stance of Prosecutors can

655
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 4: lock in their theories, lock in their timelines, take all

656
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 4: of the digital forensic that they've been gathering since September

657
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: and really pieced together what they believe to be true.

658
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 4: So I think more than one person will be charged

659
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 4: at the end of the dayjury.

660
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 3: What about it? Steve Fisher, why won't you tell me

661
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: who was driving that car?

662
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 2: I said in a previous on a previous evening that

663
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: I was misled. It was not misled by you. You're correct,

664
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: the cars moved this day and that date to this location,

665
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: that ocation we were basing. I was misled by our

666
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: own analysis that she was killed just she died just

667
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: before the car started moving. She could have been dead

668
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: much before that. She was placed in the car before

669
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: the car was moving. Now back to my query, why

670
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: aren't you telling.

671
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: People who was moving the vehicle? I guess you testified

672
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: to that from the.

673
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 6: Grand Ary.

674
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

675
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 6: I'm not even sure grand jury is, but you know

676
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 6: the reason that the reason that I did is because

677
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 6: I don't want people if I did say that, I

678
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 6: don't want people to think that she was.

679
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 7: Just killed like that.

680
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 6: I believe that her death can go back as far

681
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 6: as January, and you know, this person I'm certain will

682
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 6: be held accountable. But I also don't want of something

683
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 6: so way to take it into their own hands, because

684
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 6: this is moving super slow and it's frustrating, and I

685
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 6: just think it's a safer, you.

686
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: Know, you know way to know why Steve Fisher, because

687
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: I think Melissa McCarty is right. I think a lot

688
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: of people are going to be charged, including You're possibly

689
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 2: named as unindicted co conspirators in order to get their testimony,

690
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: give them immunity to get them to testify.

691
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: This as money woes rear their ugly head.

692
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 12: EA Sports, the biggest name in sports video games, quietly

693
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 12: removes Burke's song what Are You Waiting For? From Madden

694
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 12: NFL twenty six, The legendary football game feeds 's the

695
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 12: soundtrack when released in August twenty twenty five, that positions

696
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 12: Burt's cut between Bia and Alex Warren on the playlist,

697
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 12: but now the song has vanished from the list. No

698
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 12: announcement explaining the reason behind the move.

699
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: Dave matt joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter. Is that

700
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 2: why we are hearing about boohoo?

701
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 3: Money woes?

702
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 9: I think it's just the tip of the iceberg dance.

703
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 9: You remember when all of this started. He was on

704
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 9: his first worldwide tour. He was only two or three

705
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 9: days into it when everything broke and it stopped. This

706
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 9: was the end of the career. He had. No money's

707
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 9: been coming in since then, or at least it's not

708
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 9: nearly what it was. So yeah, money woes. Absolutely.

709
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 6: So.

710
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: Every time somebody played Madden NFL twenty six, it's a

711
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: legendary football game, they would hear David Burk's song what

712
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: Are You Waiting For? It played every time somebody played

713
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: the game. Is that right, Dave mack.

714
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 9: Well, they created a playlist of songs Nancy So Yes.

715
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 9: It was one of several kind of like on an album.

716
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 9: You know, you have several different artists on there.

717
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 3: Any yes please, could you just give me a yes?

718
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: No please?

719
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 7: Yes?

720
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so yes, So every time that song is played,

721
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: D four v D makes Let's just pretend a dollar

722
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: a penny, that's a lot of money because that is

723
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: a huge, huge game in sports video games. He's lost

724
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: all that money, that's a tip of the iceberg. But

725
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: I think he's got bigger fish to fry than losing

726
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: money off Madden NFL twenty six. If you know or

727
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: think you know anything about this case, no matter if

728
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: you think it's insignificant, doesn't matter, please call homicide two

729
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: one three, four, eight, six, six, eight nine zero repeat

730
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: two one, three, four, eight, six, six eight nine zero

731
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: and Steve Fisher if you have to go back in

732
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: front of the grand jury, which you are neither denying

733
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: or confirming, I will make a cameo appearance as a

734
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: defense attorney and come represent you because I want to

735
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: be in that grand jury. Okay Fisher for free, pro bono.

736
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: And tonight we remember an American hero, Corporal Matthew Snuok,

737
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 2: Delaware police shot in the line of duty, leaving behind

738
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: wife turned widow and a daughter without her dad. American

739
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: hero Corporal Matthew Snuck Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,