WEBVTT - So What Did Musk Accomplish With ‘DOGE’? 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:07.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:10.559 Let me tell you we have a new star. A 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.680 star is born Elan mars Jusan Kennemy. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.520 He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.040 Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:21.800 I feel for the guy. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.360 I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.440 But those two percent that are nasty, they are out 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:29.880 pay in full post. 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.280 We were meant for great things in the United States 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.640 of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.640 I'm very disappointed in Elan. I've helped Elan a lot. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.360 Hey, David Papatoapple's here, hosts of E Laning, and this 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.159 week we're going to roll out another installment of our 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.760 Summer Jealousy series. This time we have co host Max 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.200 Chafkin interviewing wire reporter and friend of pod McKenna Kelly 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.160 about her eight reporting on all things Doge, past, present 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.679 and future. So, by the way, I'll just note that 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:10.080 this conversation was recorded before Edward Korstein, the Doge guy 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.119 known as Big Balls, was attacked in a carjacking in Washington, DC, 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.920 and before President Donald Trump responded to that incident by 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.840 threatening and then actually ordering the federal government to take 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:27.480 over the DC police. Okay, enough for me, enjoy the interview. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.760 We're joined now by McKenna Kelly, who is a friend 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.400 of the show but also a senior writer at Wired. 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.800 She covers tech in politics, and listeners will know her 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.640 because for the past six months or so, McKenna has 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.960 been covering DOGE very closely, and we've talked her. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:45.880 Before we talked to her, I think. 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.480 It was what in the beginning of the year about 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.400 this kind of crazy effort by Elon Musk to bring 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.920 these technologists into the government. But a lot's changed since then, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.280 and we wanted to bring McKenna back on the podcast 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.320 to talk about what happened, what the legacy of DOGE 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.040 has been, and what comes next. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:04.640 McKenna, thanks for joining us. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.560 Yeah, it's great to be back, all right. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.200 One of the reasons I wanted to do this is because, 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.120 you know, the Trump administration, like, there's this thing where 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.000 it's a reality show. Every day there's a new thing, 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.799 and and I think for a lot of people, DOGE 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.040 has sort of receded into the background, but this stuff 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.560 has been hugely consequential. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:26.880 And I want to kind of take stock of it. 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.239 So just to start of all that's happened, big balls 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.400 of it, all the Elon Musk, all all the craziness. 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:35.320 Like what do you see as like the top line 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.560 consequence of like all of the headlines around DOGE over 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:40.680 the last six months or so. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.920 Yeah, So, I mean looking at what the last few 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.480 months have brought from DOGE and Elon, and I think 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.399 even now with Elon out at the picture and leaving government, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.440 I still feel like Doge has a lasting impression. And 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.400 I feel as if that big picture impression that we 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.160 can see across all agencies, across so many parts of 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.120 government is that it's being more run like a private 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.240 business than you know, what the government used to be 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.520 prior to this, and that comes with a lot of 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:17.839 different consequences and ramifications when it comes to hiring, staffing, contracting, 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.680 just a variety of things that the government does every 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.080 day being done in a fundamentally different way. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.120 How do you evaluate the claims that Musk and others 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.680 in the Trump administration have made. So I was told 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.160 that DOGE was going to be incredibly transparent, and there 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.920 is a website doze dot govnor where it will tell you, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.880 we'll give you like a number, like I think the 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.960 amount of savings right now is one hundred and ninety 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.400 nine billion. According to this website, there is a leader 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.480 board that I guess purports to show progress of which 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:52.000 agencies have saved the most. Has there been significant savings 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.240 as far as your reporting is shown, I think. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.840 It's fair to say that we can put a number 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:59.960 on it. However, many billion, if it's one hundred and 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.760 nine billion, whatever it is. First of all, you know, 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.920 over the last six months has been hard to even 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.560 figure out if these numbers are legitimate. There's been so 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.480 many discrepancies, you know, trying to even just like the 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:12.720 numbers being completely wrong, the numbers that they pull and 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:14.840 put on that website right, and so it's hard to 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:20.159 take anything on there as fact. But I think the 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.719 biggest story about these savings, though, is that when you 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.880 look at what the government spends, so much of the 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.920 spending goes to defense, it goes to Medicare, it goes 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:31.919 to Social Security, and those are the things that the 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.920 administration didn't want to cut. So what does that leave you. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.160 It leaves you with programs that the health and Human 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.080 Services agencies they leave you with cutting things like the 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.800 PEP far and treating AIDS across you know, across the globe. 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.560 And so what we see more so is this refusal 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.240 to make these cuts, you know, in different places, which 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.640 leaves you such a tiny kind of meager bucket in 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.359 the grand scheme of things, of cuts that can be made. 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.880 But those cuts have rastic, you know, just dramatic consequences 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.440 for people. There's you know, there's been experts who have 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.839 tried to do the math on how many people have 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.160 died as a result of these cuts, and it's somewhere 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.080 like two hundred thousands, like the number that I've seen 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.600 most recently, including adults and children, just from things like 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.600 AIDS or malaria or programs that the government, the US 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.839 government use to support. And so you look at the savings, 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.320 I think if you look at like the Trump Administration's 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.880 recent like big beautiful bill and all of the you know, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.240 the trillions that have been added to the deficit, axios 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.120 recently had a number like dojis savings compared to you know, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.080 the rest of it the administration has done has been 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.680 something like six percent, just extremely meager savings in the 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:44.440 grand scheme of things, yeah. 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.120 I mean the thing that's been crazy to me is 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.480 and I guess we should have predicted this. But if 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:53.240 you send a bunch of like first Principles thinkers to 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.400 do like a close reading of government spending, you may 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.400 find waste, but you also may sort of get tour 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.159 of all the things the government does, some of which 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.080 are really impressive. And I mean, like we've seen that 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.479 so vividly with pepfar, which I think many people sort 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.120 of if they were aware of it, they had sort 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.240 of forgotten about it. And you look and there are 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.159 estimates you alluded to this, but like we found one 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.839 at the Lancet estimating that because of the cuts to 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.400 the USAID programs, they're looking at potentially fourteen million people 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.919 dying between now and twenty thirty who would have otherwise lived. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.120 I mean, like a real body count to some of 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.640 these cuts. There's also the sort of brain drain quality 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.520 of this, right, And of course there are two ways 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:42.680 of seeing this. You know, on one hand, maybe they're 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.679 just like cutting the dead weight. I mean, this comes 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.520 this comes up a lot anytime. There are layoffs in 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.560 the private sector as well, but like we're talking about 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.479 what like tens of thousands of people whose careers were ended. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.000 I think found one estimates from the Citizens for Responsibility 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.440 and Ethics. It's a progressive nonprofit saying, you know, fifty 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:02.320 thousand people. 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.920 What do you think the scale of those losses has been. 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:10.320 Yeah, I mean, first off, like this has completely changed 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.480 what government work was for so many people they leave 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.160 the private sector and join government because it's a more 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.200 stable job. Sure, you're not going to get paid as 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.640 much as you would at a Google or Facebook or 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.400 something like that, but there are benefits and you're not 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.160 you know, you haven't been afraid of being laid off constantly, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.440 So dough is completely shook that up. Everyone at these 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.760 agencies are still terrified, even though Elon is out. All 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.280 of my sources at a bunch of agencies where DOGE 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.720 still is are terrified that they're going to get laid off. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.600 All the work that has gone to them now with 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.480 people who have either retired early or been forcibly removed 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.960 from government, that work still needs to get done. And 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.440 even you know, the folks who are still there are 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.400 completely exhausted and trying to find exit ramps themselves. And so, 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.640 like you mentioned, like people would go to the public 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:00.600 sector to have a bit of a piece of mind 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.880 about their career, and now it's just as in their minds, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.240 just as tumultuous as the private sector. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:11.960 All right, let's talk about you alluded to it a 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.040 couple times, but like this shift of what Doge is now. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.080 You wrote a great piece for Wired about you know, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.920 quote unquote Doge two point zero. What do you see 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.320 as Doge two point zero? 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.920 Yeah, So, like I mentioned, there's a lot of those 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.160 folks who were brought on at the beginning Edward big 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.040 Balls chorusing Luke Farredder. Yeah, and so a lot of 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.840 those kids are still in government, right, They're at a 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.560 variety of different agencies. Farreader is still at the Department 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.560 of Labor. He still has, you know, a tremendous amount 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:45.560 of power. But I think Doge one point oh can 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:50.800 be defined as this chaotic reckoning. All these people were 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.319 getting fired, right, It was about cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.719 to contracts, cuts to all of that stuff. And we're 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.800 moving into something that feels more like a rebuilding, right, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.280 So taking the scraps and the chaos that was left 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.800 by Doorge point one point oh, and maybe to Doge 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.520 two point zero, I think there's still cuts. I think 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.239 the Washington Post reported recently about this like DOGE deregulation 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.800 tool that they built. It's like an AI tool that's 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.480 supposed to go through two hundred thousand regulations in the 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.719 US government and find the ones to cut, which does 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.360 it sound like a very good way of going about 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.440 all of that. So there's still cuts, but there's major 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.240 IT projects that are still still undergoing. In April, I 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.080 reported about this tool that was being built at the 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.040 IRS that was essentially just just like Mega API to 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.200 unify all of the data at IRS to make it 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.440 more easily accessible and readable. That is still ongoing. It 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.400 was supposed to be done in thirty days, is what 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.840 Sam Corcos, the guy who was running that, the DOGE 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:48.800 guy who was running that IRIS, was trying to say. 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.240 It's definitely been a lot more than thirty days. That 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.079 is a very hard project. And there's you know, similar 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:59.440 projects going on at other agencies as well, and so yeah, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.760 I think the OAG two point zero can be defined 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.520 more as this kind of rebuilding moment. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.640 I think also, and tell me if this is wrong. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.400 I mean, it seems like part of what's going on 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:13.640 is like these guys the Farador Cours team, the sharp 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.880 young things that Elon Musk brought in, the Doge bros 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.440 are basically being integrated within agencies, Like Doge is embedding 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:27.640 itself within different agencies and it's no longer really called 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.360 Doge anymore. Like the Trump administration has rebranded, and I 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.160 want to talk about that rebranding and like what you 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.120 think is driving it, because there seemed like a couple 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.120 of different possibilities and maybe they're all driving. One is 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.640 obviously the feud between Elon Musk and Donald Trump, and 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:48.040 Elon Musk essentially first being eased out of Trump's orbit 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.760 and then having like a full blown fight with Donald Trump, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.920 where I think the Trump administration now like doesn't want 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.800 to have a lot of association with Elon Musk. I 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.160 think the second thing, which is maybe more important, is 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.000 that this stuff turned out to be really really unpopular. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:08.000 Yeah, especially with the Cabinet secretary secretaries where this was happening. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.040 You see these Doge people being integrated into these agencies, 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.280 and most of the time they're being integrated in groups 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.600 that are more directly reporting to the cabinet secretaries and 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.839 their teams rather than you know, an Amy Gleeson or 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.280 Steve Davis or Elon Musk. So these cabinet secretaries want 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.280 to have more oversight of what's happening at their agencies. 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.880 We heard so much about Scott Bessant being like totally 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.640 upset with Elon, openly feuding with him at the White House. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.360 Yeah, I mean maybe he gave him the black eye. 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.520 We don't know, and I'm just kidding or have kidding, right, Yeah, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:43.040 that was a. 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.160 Meme exactly, but you see that, And so they want 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.600 to have more oversight of this because even over I 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.160 feel like over the last couple of months we did 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.839 this story. You kind of talked about it about DOGE 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:54.920 two point zero and what it is, and I remember 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.400 we went to the White House and even some of 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.360 you know, senior administration officials there still had no idea 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.600 of what DOGE was doing. Like some of what we're 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.600 telling them is like news to them, and so they 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.800 need I think part of this new version of DOGE 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.920 is giving it a bit more accountability and oversight from 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:16.560 the politicals in charge. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.160 Yeah, this story that you're talking about, this is Doughtube. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.960 Listeners should definitely read it because it gives kind of 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.120 like the most comprehensive account of like what is happening 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.760 right now published in early July. One thing, and mckennay, 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.560 you alluded to this earlier, but part of this dough 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.880 tube we know is adopting some of these sort of 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:41.360 corporate processes that seem at once very familiar to anyone 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.920 who's worked in a large company and also just like 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.360 comically inefficient. It's like the next step of the you know, 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.480 Elon Musk loved to show the like memes of the 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.679 Office Space Consultants, the Bobs, acting like he was one 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.960 of the Office Space consultants, which always felt weird because you're, like, 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.319 the Bobs are the villains of that movie, and now 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:06.000 we're getting sort of weird corporate processes that don't seem 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.720 inherently who knows, maybe they are more efficient, but they 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.400 don't seem obviously more efficient to me. It seems like 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.400 many of your sources don't necessarily view them as inherently 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.000 more efficient than what was going on before. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.560 Yeah, one of the things that stands out to me 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.360 that maybe isn't like the sexiest thing, but there was 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.640 the Executive Order earlier this year where they wanted to 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.640 bring procurement and contracting into GSA, and so GSA, the 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.559 General Services Administration, would be doing all of the contracting 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.200 work for every agency, which maybe sounds great, right to 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.240 somebody in the private industry, like we should have one 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.880 team doing all of this work. But it's really different. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.000 When GSA does a lot of like tech, they do 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.760 a lot of like work specialized for them that they've 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.800 been doing for a very long time, instead having them 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.080 to do, you know, trying to get these people who 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.880 haven't worked at these agencies to figure out the best 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.640 you know, the best tech, the best resources, the best consultants, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.040 all of these things. For agencies like AHHS, h CDC, 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.400 these more specialized groups, the Department of Energy and Nuclear, 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.160 you're asking folks who have no background in this to 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.200 make decisions on some of the most important programs in 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.040 our country. And so talk about inefficiency a lot of 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.560 these folks. And there's far less stuff right in these 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.880 procurement offices as well, so they're going to have to 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.680 really go through some process of like learning all of 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.640 this stuff in order to make this administration goal work. 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.400 Let's bring it back to Elon before we wrap. One 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.120 of the more intriguing things to come out of your 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.960 reporting recently was sort of information about Elon's continued to 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.280 influence within DOGE, like the fact, first of all, the 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.720 fact that a bunch of these Elon left he and 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.120 Trump are beefing. He's like talking about Epstein on Twitter 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.800 all the time, threatening to fund primary challenges, and yet 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.760 a bunch of the people he's still hired are in 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:03.360 positions of power. And you even reported in your story 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.920 that he was having sort of more direct influence via 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.880 deputies and so on, who are talking still kind of 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:14.040 in communication with members of the Trump administration or people 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.400 in senior positions. Is that still going on and do 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.720 you see that as a kind of lasting impact. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.720 I don't have any news on whether that is still 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:29.280 ongoing this kinds of communication, but I do believe that 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.280 Elon's influence is still there, especially if you look at 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.240 someone like Luke Ferreder who is still in government. I 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:42.080 can't imagine someone like Luke or Big Balls or whoever, 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.480 or have plans to stay in the government forever. 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:45.080 Right. 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.280 Their allegiance is more to this kind of like Silicon 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.320 Valley mindset, these kinds of companies, and so they don't 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.320 want to do anything that would you know, put them 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.800 out of favor with Elon, and I think that is 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:03.120 maybe where more of that lasting influence will be as 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.280 long as those folks continue to work in government. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.840 Do you think we're going to look back and say 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.480 that Elon Musk profited from this experience? I ask because 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.360 there have been reports at various points right about Musk 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.280 getting access to data, like not even necessarily not like 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.760 sensitive data to like violate people's privacy, but data that 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.840 would give him insight perhaps into markets that could be 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:33.440 useful from a business perspective. There's also been suggestions that, like, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.120 for instance, X Money, that this effort by X to 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.359 like launch a payments platform, like one of the motivations 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.120 for gutting the CFPB, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, was 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.760 to launch X money, Like you could go on and on. Right, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.880 They're different parts of the regulatory apparatus that touched Elon Musk, 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.920 And there has been this sort of suggestion that we're 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.880 not just witnessing sort of destruction of government for the 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.320 sake of efficiency. We're seeing something that looks more like looting. 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.439 And I'm kind of curious how your sources see it 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.919 and how you think about this conversation. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.520 Yeah, so I don't know if there's really been much 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:16.159 reporting about whether Elon himself has like walked out of 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.920 government with this like USB drive, you know, with all 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.160 of this data on it. So I think the work 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.120 that Doge did that could benefit Elon in the long 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:28.720 run that we can you know that I think we 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.600 can make a fair prediction would be, like you mentioned 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.760 the CFPB for example, does Elon have information that can 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.360 maybe help in with competitors, Who knows. But what did 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:43.359 happen is that he his team like basically Holy defanged 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.560 that agency. If there is something that Elon wants to 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.399 do with expay or whatever it is, the regulator there 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.800 who would go after him has far less resources than 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.040 it did before. And so I don't know if we 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.320 can say that he will come out of this with 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.800 like bags of gold bullion from all of this. But 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:08.320 I think he's created more of a shield for himself 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.399 and his businesses by the cuts that he made on 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:12.280 these agencies. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.479 What about his reputation you know for whatever you know, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.439 help gutting the CFPV provided there is a sense that 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.480 like Trump at least say, I have a sense that 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.720 Trump has essentially let Elon take the fall for Doge 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.960 and like he's going to get blamed for this, and 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.600 like this is going to be this thing that if 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.040 you look at the public polling, is super unpopular, right, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.200 Like the idea of making government more efficient is very popular. 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.600 The idea of Elon Musk's specific brand of making the 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.760 government efficient is extremely unpopular. And I think maybe that's 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.439 that's the legacy, is just that Elon has like permanently 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:57.280 damaged his reputation or or has added another thing that 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.240 is going to be hard for him to overcome in 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.960 terms of his and in terms of like his companies 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:02.440 and so on. 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.800 Yeah, I think that's still to be seen though, Right, 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.560 there are still like these MAGA influencers who were obsessed 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.720 with Elon. There are still these MAGA influencers who, after 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.200 all this Epstein stuff with Trump, are willing to carry 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.840 water for him as well. Right, And So I don't 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:24.119 know if I've seen anything that has dramatically, you know, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.040 changed the way that you know, the people who really support, 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.240 you know, the real true believers feel about him. I 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.160 guess it's still kind of like to be seen, all. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:35.840 Right, McKenna, prediction time. 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.879 We will hold you to this prediction and invite you 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:44.560 back to to discuss it. But how where do you 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.479 see DOGE a year from now, twenty twenty six will 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.320 be heading into the midterm elections. Is it going strong? 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.080 Is Big Ball still there? Two questions. One is a 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.920 sort of government question, which is do you think this 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:01.040 project will be ongoing in some form and to will 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.439 it be will it have political salience, will be a 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.000 political issue that will help decide the midterms potentially even 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:07.919 the next presidency. 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.800 Hmmm, Dog is technically around till July twenty sixth, the 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:13.400 next year. 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.840 Okay, mark your calendar listeners, that's. 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.080 When it's officially over. Kind of what I'm seeing now, 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.080 and if the trend continues for the next year, we're 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:29.600 going to continue to see these kinds of dog folks 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.080 from tech cycling in and out of government, you know, 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.080 doing some projects and then leaving. But I see like 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:38.919 there's still a bunch of people who are really excited 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.600 about this mission. I imagine they'll want to be a 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.800 part and then do their one hundred or something days 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.880 and then leave. But I don't think DOGE will ever 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.800 be what it was in January and February, right. I 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.600 think more so of what the legacy of DOGE is 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:01.680 is this kind of cultural shakeup, right, this changing of 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.200 what can happen in government and how it operates. And 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.400 you know, in a year from now, we'll probably see 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.040 a lot more of the consequences of these cuts, maybe 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.359 things that you know happen sooner, you know, closer to 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.840 the election that maybe. But yeah, I feel as if 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.560 the Democrats will still try and go after Elon the 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.200 Republicans for a lot of what happened this year. 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.480 Yeah, I think it's going to be a huge political 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.920 issue actually as we're talking through it, just because anything 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.680 you're mad about with the government, we've just created this 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.480 situation or the Republicans really in doing this, like create 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.119 a situation where you create all this this like huge 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.280 vector for attack, which I think is why like deficits, 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:47.879 it's very hard to cut deficits spending in general, and 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.600