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Speaker 1: A seminal is the protection of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: The most important thing about making a podcast is getting

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Speaker 2: the tape SYNCD.

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Speaker 3: Somebody's got a clap with me?

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Speaker 2: Do y'all do a clap sync?

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Speaker 4: But it's more of the ritual of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I love it all right? Who wants to count? You?

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Speaker 2: Do it?

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Speaker 5: Because you're the boss of this?

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Speaker 2: The way do we we count on? Where do we clap?

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Speaker 6: Do you just want to go with one?

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Speaker 5: Living on the edge?

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Speaker 3: Nine after?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 3: Hurry up?

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Speaker 5: What three?

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Speaker 1: Two?

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Speaker 2: One? Then clap? That's the most involved clap for the

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Speaker 2: time being, at least in its current home. This is

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Speaker 2: going to be the last episode of Ephemeral.

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Speaker 3: We are canceling the show what why Well?

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Speaker 7: The algorith of them felt it wasn't hitting the right

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Speaker 7: taste clusters.

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Speaker 2: It seemed like the right moment to tackle a question

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Speaker 2: I've been curious about since the very beginning of this show.

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Speaker 2: How ephemeral are podcasts in twenty twenty three. It's easy

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Speaker 2: to assume their ubiquity. I've seen it estimated that between

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Speaker 2: three and four million podcasts currently exist, most available to

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Speaker 2: essentially anyone, anytime, anywhere. But if this feed went dark

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Speaker 2: today and disappeared from every podcast player. What then, don't

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Speaker 2: worry that's not going to happen, at least not for

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Speaker 2: the foreseeable future. But it makes me wonder just how

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Speaker 2: much ownership any one of us has in this dynamic,

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Speaker 2: and how history might look back upon this era in

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Speaker 2: which people have recorded, distributed, and archived for their own

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Speaker 2: voices to an unprecedented degree. Surely there's no shortage of

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Speaker 2: opinions on this. People that could talk about the business,

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Speaker 2: the tech, the cultural ramification, Google how to make your

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Speaker 2: podcast successful, and see how many hits you get. But

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Speaker 2: I am most interested in what other creators have to say,

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Speaker 2: and luckily I happen to know the hosts of some

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Speaker 2: of the longest running, most successful shows around. At least

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Speaker 2: with the words stuff in the.

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Speaker 6: Title, Welcome to stuff, you should know it's you meet Chuck.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's about to say.

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Speaker 5: Just like the old days, stuff to blow your mind.

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Speaker 9: Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My

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Speaker 9: name is Robert.

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Speaker 10: Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 5: Stuff you missed in history class. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 5: the podcast. I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

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Speaker 11: Stuff they don't gort you to know.

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Speaker 12: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 12: my name is Nola.

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Speaker 4: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Savor Prediction of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 5: I'm Annie Reach and I'm Lauren vogel Bomb.

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Speaker 2: But to me, this show is always Thill food Stuff.

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Speaker 6: Hello, and welcome to food Stuff. I'm Lauren Vogelbaum and

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Speaker 6: I'm Annie Reef and we are your hosts of this

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Speaker 6: a new show from How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna put your right on the spot off the

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Speaker 2: bat here. How long have you each been podcasting?

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Speaker 9: Oh geez, that's a tough question.

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Speaker 6: I would have done the math if I had done.

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Speaker 6: This was going to be one of the questions. I

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Speaker 6: guess I've been working with the company for about twelve

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Speaker 6: eleven years, So I guess I've been podcasting for about nine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it'd be ten.

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Speaker 1: That sounds about right, because I started in twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: You started a year after me. Okay, right. I haven't

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Speaker 1: always been a host of podcasts, but I've always been

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Speaker 1: working in some capacity on podcasts since twenty ten.

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Speaker 10: Oh wow, hoof, I think I started in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 10: I think I've been on Stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 10: since twenty fifteen. Is that right?

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Speaker 9: That sounds about right. I know that in twenty twenty

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Speaker 9: put out a ten year anniversary special of Stuff to

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Speaker 9: Blow Your Mind. So going back to when it was

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Speaker 9: Stuff from the Science Last that I hosted with Alison Loudermilk.

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Speaker 9: So yeah, what going on fourteen years? Does that sound

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Speaker 9: right now? Wait? Yeah, that would be right.

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Speaker 8: Josh has been doing it longer than me.

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Speaker 3: But only by a few months. Two thousand and eight

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Speaker 3: to twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 9: Is what?

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Speaker 3: This is our fifteenth year? Fifteenth? No, that's not right,

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Speaker 3: is it?

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Speaker 8: This is our fifteenth year in April?

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Speaker 3: I think crazy? Yeah, fifteen years, there's your answer.

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Speaker 5: The twenty eleven when we started that sounds about right

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Speaker 5: right around there. Yeah. We had a different podcast called

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Speaker 5: pop Stuff that we worked on for a couple of

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Speaker 5: years that had a very devoted but also very small listenership.

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Speaker 2: God bless those fans, the small devoted fans.

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Speaker 5: They were so lovely.

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Speaker 2: I loved the very buch.

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Speaker 5: We moved on to Stuff You Missed in History Class

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Speaker 5: in twenty thirteen, So we are coming up on our

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Speaker 5: ten year anniversary. Yeah, but I had done some episodes

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Speaker 5: in twenty twelve. All right, so I think I already

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Speaker 5: passed mine, you did, WEFs didn't even notice.

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Speaker 11: Matt and I were in How Stuff Works before How

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Speaker 11: Stuff Works started messing with podcast We had someone in

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Speaker 11: the marketing department of How Stuff Works say, Hey, this

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Speaker 11: is shiny new thing. It's called podcasting. We're going to

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Speaker 11: do podcasting and it'll only be five minutes long. Everything.

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Speaker 11: We'll have stuff in the title right, and it'll refer

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Speaker 11: directly back to these articles because we're a print edutainment

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Speaker 11: company or a digital print company. And we quickly realized

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Speaker 11: we had misjudged our scope.

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Speaker 12: Well, yeah, we were making a show called brain Stuff

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Speaker 12: with Marshall Brain I think that was in two thousand

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Speaker 12: and seven, because Stuff you should Know officially started in

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Speaker 12: two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 11: We really started the pivot toward podcasts with That's when

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Speaker 11: Nole came aboard as well and for a time edited

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Speaker 11: what every podcast.

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Speaker 4: It was twenty thirteen when I started more producing podcasts

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Speaker 4: and then gradually started being on Mike And now I've

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Speaker 4: kind of pivoted from producing to completely just you know,

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Speaker 4: talking on the things. So definitely been in the you know,

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Speaker 4: it's so hard to get on the ground floor of

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Speaker 4: anything these days, and I think all three of us,

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Speaker 4: hell all four of us, we're really lucky to be

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Speaker 4: able to do that for podcasting for the most part.

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Speaker 2: How many podcasts episodes do you estimate you have published

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Speaker 2: in that span of time?

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Speaker 5: One million, thousands?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, those thousands over certainly over one thousand, multiple thousand.

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Speaker 11: It gets kind of in the weeds pretty quick, man.

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Speaker 9: No clue, no clue, there's no, not really a good

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Speaker 9: way to count, as far as I know.

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Speaker 10: More than seventeen less than three trillion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wait, why is there not a good way to count?

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Speaker 9: You know, because it's like, over the years, the new

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Speaker 9: episodes you were, and then you end up running repeat episodes,

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Speaker 9: and initially they were in a very hap dash sort

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Speaker 9: of fashion, you know, just whenever you needed some, and

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Speaker 9: then vault or rerun episodes became more of a standard

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Speaker 9: part of the production. And yeah, and then just over

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Speaker 9: the years, you know, sometimes you go back and take

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Speaker 9: out an old episode that just doesn't hold up anymore.

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Speaker 9: So there's there's not any like really solid record keeping

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Speaker 9: of the core stuff to blow your mind episodes. And

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Speaker 9: then eventually we reached the point where we're doing all

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Speaker 9: sorts of extra content as well, like short form episodes,

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Speaker 9: listener mail episodes. We've been in two years of weird

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Speaker 9: House cinema episodes on Fridays talking about strange movies. So like,

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Speaker 9: where do you count? How do you cut it? To

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Speaker 9: do the count is just yeah, years of content.

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Speaker 10: Somebody would have to just directly go count with a

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Speaker 10: human brain. I don't know of any automated way to

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Speaker 10: do it.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, and it just better things for human brains to do.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 5: We do two new ones a week every week. We'd

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Speaker 5: never take hiatus. We've done this math before of like

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Speaker 5: you know, two times fifty two, So one hundred and

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Speaker 5: four a year?

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Speaker 12: What is it?

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Speaker 9: Josh?

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Speaker 3: Well, we publish one hundred and four episodes a year,

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Speaker 3: not including leap.

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Speaker 2: Years or short stuffs.

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Speaker 3: N Oh, you're right, actually, so yeah, there'd be one

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Speaker 3: hundred and sixty carry the one now one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty six. So we published one hundred and fifty six

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Speaker 3: a year.

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Speaker 5: And then we also do classics, which we record intros for,

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Speaker 5: but those aren't really new. They're the three runs, three runs,

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Speaker 5: three runs with a new frame, no, four times fifteen.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, like fifteen sixteen hundred episodes, I'd.

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Speaker 8: Say, yeah, at least fifteen hundred. I bet it's with

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Speaker 8: the short stuffs. It's creeping toward eighteen.

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Speaker 5: So one million is I'm standing by that number.

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Speaker 2: Yes, math checks out for me. Do you ever reflect

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Speaker 2: on how much of your likeness is just floating around

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Speaker 2: out there on the internet, out there in space? And

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Speaker 2: if so, I mean, what do you what do you

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Speaker 2: think about that? What does that bring to mind? I do?

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Speaker 1: I do, mostly because I've talked about things on the

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Speaker 1: show that I have never talked about with, like my family,

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Speaker 1: my closest friends, And I think about that sometimes of

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Speaker 1: like the impact or outcome of a family member perhaps

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Speaker 1: stumbling upon that and thinking, oh, well, I know everything

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Speaker 1: about her because she's in my life, and then they don't.

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Speaker 1: There is sort of your professional voice, or you're the

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Speaker 1: person you put out there that might not necessarily be

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Speaker 1: entirely you. It's mostly you, but it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: a performance you're doing. It's sort of like a thing

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Speaker 1: you're doing. And so sometimes I wonder about that, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder about what people who know me think about that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I get in my head about people

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Speaker 1: analyzing it, which is probably just saying more about me

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Speaker 1: and analyzing me than anything else. But yeah, I do,

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Speaker 1: I do think about it.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's an aspect of you, for for sure,

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Speaker 6: but right's it's not all of you. I kind of

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Speaker 6: like grew up professionally doing science videos on YouTube and

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Speaker 6: being the moderator for those, which, if you guys have

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Speaker 6: never been in the comment section of a YouTube video,

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Speaker 6: it is a wretched hive of scum and vilany. It

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Speaker 6: can be really harsh there, and especially towards ladies who

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Speaker 6: are doing anything. That was a very harsh but a

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Speaker 6: very useful mindsetting kind of jellification of what it is

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Speaker 6: to have this avatar of yourself out there running around

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Speaker 6: on the internet through people's lives that is not you.

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Speaker 5: It's related to you.

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Speaker 6: It's something that you did. You know, you went into

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Speaker 6: that room for half an hour and recorded a video

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Speaker 6: that got cut down to five minutes. But just because

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Speaker 6: someone consumes that they don't they don't know you, And

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Speaker 6: that's like kind of a point of view that I

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Speaker 6: really had to develop in order to just preserve my

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Speaker 6: own skin. But so after that, I guess it does

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Speaker 6: not bother me. What other people might think of this

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Speaker 6: like weird facet of myself that I put out there.

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Speaker 6: But knowing how different I sound on different shows is

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Speaker 6: really hilarious to me because I've had people who know

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Speaker 6: me and who don't know me tell me like like

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Speaker 6: you sound so different, like this is such a different thing,

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Speaker 6: and like like what's the real you?

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, oh, it freaks me out a little

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Speaker 5: bit sometimes, Like there was a period where I tried

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Speaker 5: to get verified on Twitter. This was way before the

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Speaker 5: current drama of Twitter verification, but I felt like people

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Speaker 5: had a way to access me twenty four to seven

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Speaker 5: in some cases to tell me the minutia of what

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Speaker 5: they thought I had done wrong, and it was me

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Speaker 5: out a lot, And I was like, maybe if I

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Speaker 5: could make this a verified account and have it be

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Speaker 5: like my official work thing that is only work and

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Speaker 5: not personal stuff, maybe that would help. But Twitter said

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Speaker 5: I didn't meet the criteria to be verified, and then

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Speaker 5: I was like, I'm just going to use this publicly

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Speaker 5: facing thing less and turn off notifications for people I

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Speaker 5: don't follow, because it can really be a lot one.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I almost feel like more of my Internet presence,

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Speaker 5: at least on social media has to do with Star Wars,

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Speaker 5: and it does history and sewing and sewing, and so

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Speaker 5: I almost feel bad for people who follow me for

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Speaker 5: history content and get like NonStop greedo discussion. But I

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Speaker 5: also am highly cognizant of the fact that my age

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Speaker 5: has given me the gift of not having my youngest

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Speaker 5: and just most stupid behavior captured on social media. Same

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Speaker 5: so I'm kind of like, eh, whatever at this point,

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Speaker 5: Like I'm an old my world is settled in terms

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Speaker 5: of like where I live and who I'm with and

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Speaker 5: all of that. Like, I don't feel quite as much

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Speaker 5: fret about things in that regard of like how will

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Speaker 5: a future person that meets me perceive me. It's like

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Speaker 5: that ship is saled. I'm good. I'm but really, I

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Speaker 5: think if you in the future when aliens come, they're

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Speaker 5: gonna find more pictures of me, like in an Amidala

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Speaker 5: costume than they are doing anything historical. I think the

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Speaker 5: thing that's been troubling me more recently has been the

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Speaker 5: just lightning fast development and quality of artificial intelligence and

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Speaker 5: that kind of stuff just over the last few years,

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Speaker 5: because like I know, when we were doing like writing

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Speaker 5: and editing articles every once in a while, there would

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Speaker 5: be this push to try to get like an automated

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Speaker 5: editing software, and ten years ago it was terrible, like

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Speaker 5: the results would be very bad. But there's stuff that's

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Speaker 5: being turned out now that seems like almost indistinguishable from

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Speaker 5: something that is created by a human being. And some

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Speaker 5: of the stuff that's going on now is specifically about

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Speaker 5: recreating the sounds of people's voices. And I'm like, how

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Speaker 5: long is it until there's just a fake version of

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Speaker 5: me that's got my voice but it's not me, you know.

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Speaker 9: I was just listening to an audiobook of Jory Lewis

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Speaker 9: Borges's short stories in the Car, and one of the

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Speaker 9: stories is about him contemplating the difference between himself and

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Speaker 9: the version of himself that he that has been put

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Speaker 9: out into the world via his writings, and I've got

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Speaker 9: it rather insightful. It's definitely worth a read for anyone

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Speaker 9: contemplating this sort of thing. But he sort of like

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Speaker 9: looks at it almost kind of like there's this sort

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Speaker 9: of antagonism there, like there's that guy, there's that Borges,

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Speaker 9: and then there's me. But then by the end of

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Speaker 9: the story he acknowledges that he's not really even sure

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Speaker 9: which Borges has written this story, written this little essay,

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Speaker 9: if you will.

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Speaker 10: I certainly have that experience if I listen to an

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Speaker 10: old episode. I mean, I know writers have this experience

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Speaker 10: all the time where you read something that you wrote

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Speaker 10: more than I don't know, two years ago, and you

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Speaker 10: don't it doesn't feel like something you wrote anymore. It

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Speaker 10: feels like you're reading something somebody else wrote, or at

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Speaker 10: least I have that experience. I think this is common

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Speaker 10: to writers. Rob would you say the same thing, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 9: I always consider it so weird when you have an

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Speaker 9: admirable I guess when you have like a writer or

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Speaker 9: some other somebody involved in some sort of creative process

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Speaker 9: where they have something that they made years ago and

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Speaker 9: they still kind of like stand by it. It's like

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Speaker 9: still out there and they're like, yeah, that's me. Where

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Speaker 9: it's like, I just don't feel that connection to anything

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Speaker 9: like that. Like I have a real hesitancy to even

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Speaker 9: put an episode in for a rerun, a Vaulved episode

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Speaker 9: that's more than a year old. And part of that

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Speaker 9: is science. You know, our understanding of the world moves

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Speaker 9: along and you have to worry about was this was

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Speaker 9: this evergreen have there been updates? But then other parts

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Speaker 9: of it are just like, I don't really know who

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Speaker 9: this guy was that did this episode, say three or

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Speaker 9: four years ago. I mean, especially now, it just seems

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Speaker 9: like such a long time ago.

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Speaker 10: I mean I wasn't even necessarily talking about would you

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Speaker 10: still stand by it or would you still make the

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Speaker 10: content the same way you did? I mean, regardless of that,

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Speaker 10: I just mean like the kind of basic alienation from

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Speaker 10: anything that comes out of your own creative process over time.

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Speaker 10: You know, I read something I wrote a couple of

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Speaker 10: years ago, and it doesn't have that same level of familiarity,

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Speaker 10: you know how you like, you can't. It's hard to

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Speaker 10: catch your own typos in something because it's still a

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Speaker 10: part of you, and so when you read over it,

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Speaker 10: you don't see the mistakes. But after a certain period

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Speaker 10: of time, I think, whatever it is that finally lets

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Speaker 10: you see your own typos also makes it feel like

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Speaker 10: an alien piece of writing that you didn't actually write.

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Speaker 10: And I'd say the same thing is kind of true

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Speaker 10: of podcasting. If I listen to an episode I did

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Speaker 10: a few months ago, it's like, oh, yeah, that's still me.

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Speaker 10: I remember thinking all those things I remember, you know,

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Speaker 10: I can still kind of like feel the texture of

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Speaker 10: where all these words and the sequence I spoke them

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Speaker 10: came from. But if I listened to something from several

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Speaker 10: years back, I don't feel that at all. It's just like,

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Speaker 10: who is this person talking?

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Speaker 8: I would say that it's something that you grow more

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Speaker 8: comfortable with, especially a show like ours, where we end

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Speaker 8: up telling anecdotal fun stories about our lives and our

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Speaker 8: families and loved ones and friends and things we do

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Speaker 8: in the real world.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of the fabric of.

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Speaker 8: The show, and so a lot of stuff is out there,

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Speaker 8: so you kind of have to kind of think about

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Speaker 8: what you want, you know, a couple of million people

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Speaker 8: to know about you when every time you open your mouth, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: What's is we we're like podcasts famous, so that means

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Speaker 3: we can walk down the street in basically any town

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Speaker 3: or city in the world and not get recognized. But

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Speaker 3: we still, you know, have lots of listeners and people

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Speaker 3: that like to write into us and you know, share

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Speaker 3: their stories with us and all that. So I feel

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Speaker 3: like we have the best of both worlds because we

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Speaker 3: never get thronged. Although I think even if we did

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Speaker 3: get recognized we probably still wouldn't get thronged anyway, but

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Speaker 3: I think you get the point.

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Speaker 8: My daughter asked me if I was famous the other

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Speaker 8: day in the car, what'd you say?

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Speaker 4: I said, not really, we don't get thronged.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, And she said, okay, I don't want anyone throng

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Speaker 8: in us.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if somebody wanted to take the time to

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Speaker 4: sift through all of that, they could probably find us

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Speaker 4: telling the same story fifty or more times. You know,

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Speaker 4: we're saying the same little turn of phrase. I think

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Speaker 4: about that. You know how many times I've said the

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Speaker 4: exact little thing like it was me saying for the

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Speaker 4: first time. That bothers me and keeps me up nice.

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Speaker 4: But also you can't let it too much. You have

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Speaker 4: certain shows where it'll be listeners that go back and

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Speaker 4: mine old episodes and find little catchphrases and things that

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Speaker 4: the hosts say and sample them and put them into songs.

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Speaker 4: I think it's kind of cool, but it also freaks

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Speaker 4: me out a little bit that all that stuff is

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Speaker 4: available for the taking.

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Speaker 11: It's like any other skill, right there becomes this sort

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Speaker 11: of reflexive muscle memory aspect to some things. But then

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Speaker 11: you have this huge consideration of you know, being on

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Speaker 11: for lack of a better phrase, a permanent record, right,

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Speaker 11: and you begin to think more carefully about what you

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Speaker 11: put out in the world. And different people react to

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Speaker 11: that in very different ways. We are pretty open about

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Speaker 11: the fact that we only exist because an audience exists, right,

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Speaker 11: So we want to, to a reasonable and healthy degree,

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Speaker 11: allow those folks in. It's weird because then you encounter

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Speaker 11: parasocial phenomenon.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 11: People who listen for a long time feel that they

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Speaker 11: have a personal relationship with you because they know a

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Speaker 11: lot about you.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes they feel entitled to tell you what you

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Speaker 4: should or should not say or do, because they feel

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Speaker 4: like they've got skin in the game, you know, and

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Speaker 4: and and you you can let them down, you know

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Speaker 4: what I mean, and like you know, and while you

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Speaker 4: don't want to let that cripple you and and make

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Speaker 4: you scared to say anything. Uh, it's certainly always in

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Speaker 4: the back of your mind, or at least in the

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Speaker 4: back of my mind. And I think I probably speak

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Speaker 4: for most of us when I say that it's a

396
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Speaker 4: calculation that goes into how we how we you know,

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Speaker 4: comport ourselves on Mike as to not quote unquote let

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Speaker 4: down our audience by saying something stupid.

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Speaker 12: I feel like every time I talk to you officially

400
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Speaker 12: on Mike, Alex, I end up getting really emotional. H

401
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Speaker 12: But this, like this made me think about my son

402
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Speaker 12: and thinking about the amount of things that I've said

403
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Speaker 12: into a microphone, number of conversations I've had with these

404
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Speaker 12: guys and you and others, and like, it's weird. You

405
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 12: can hear me get older and evolve on Mike, Like

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Speaker 12: anyone that has access to a computer can hear that.

407
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Speaker 12: Right now, you can hear me change and like went

408
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Speaker 12: we went back. We were going through our classic episodes

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Speaker 12: to get all the Illumination Global Unlimited ads, and going

410
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Speaker 12: back through those episodes, you could hear Ben and I

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Speaker 12: and we're not kids, but we're pretty fresh out of

412
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Speaker 12: college guys like trying our career, doing the best we

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Speaker 12: can do, making this thing happen, and creating something of

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Speaker 12: our own. And then to hear us, you know, now

415
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Speaker 12: we've been in a career for a long time and

416
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Speaker 12: we're still thriving and we're still bringing new things to

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Speaker 12: the table. But we're very different people. And when I

418
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Speaker 12: think about my son, sometime in the future, anytime in

419
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Speaker 12: the future. He can go back. He can hear what

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Speaker 12: I cared most about in twenty fourteen. He can learn

421
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Speaker 12: about how I thought about things in twenty seventeen. He

422
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Speaker 12: can hear the dogs on Mike in the background that

423
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Speaker 12: are probably long past, you know, He'll hear like Penny

424
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Speaker 12: and Meadow. He could hear that if he wanted to,

425
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Speaker 12: you know, well after I'm gone. He can hear me

426
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Speaker 12: having a conversation with a couple of my best friends.

427
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Speaker 12: Thousands of times we watched.

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Speaker 4: Like actors, for example, grow up on long running television series,

429
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Speaker 4: you know, like the Sopranos. You know, you got like

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Speaker 4: AJ starts off as a little kid, and by the

431
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Speaker 4: end of it, he's like, you know, in his twenties,

432
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Speaker 4: and it's similar to that. But it's also not because

433
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Speaker 4: it's real. You know, where we are, who we are.

434
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Speaker 4: We're not playing characters. I mean, you can't help but

435
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Speaker 4: bring a tiny amount of the tiniest amount of affectation

436
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Speaker 4: when you're doing this for a living, you know, But

437
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Speaker 4: I don't think we do very much. So we really

438
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Speaker 4: are to your point, Matt, you know, kind of growing

439
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 4: up on Mike, and it really is the real version

440
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 4: of us that you're experiencing.

441
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 11: There is something beautiful about it, and nobody really knows

442
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 11: how far this is going to go. Keep in mind

443
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 11: that although the big corporations got involved with casting very

444
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 11: early on, the industry is still so young that there

445
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 11: aren't a lot of people who've retired from it, which

446
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 11: I think is amazing. You know, the luminaries, the big

447
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 11: names are still very much there.

448
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 4: And Alex, the question for you is which ones end

449
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 4: up getting committed to wax cylinders and shot into space.

450
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: You know, Like the show is called ephemeral. You know,

451
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 4: it's like it is. It exists purely digitally, and so

452
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 4: it's not an object you can pick up until somebody

453
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 4: commits it to that for you know, whatever future time,

454
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 4: whether it be an apocalyptic event when you know, the

455
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 4: infrastructure goes away, for someone to pick it up and

456
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 4: play it on an old Victrola that they crank.

457
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 12: You know, dude, you need to do that, Alex. This

458
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 12: you need to print all of your ephemeral episodes onto

459
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 12: vinyl and then you could sell like that collection. That

460
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 12: would like so that would be so freaking cool. It's

461
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 12: that would be a dream come true.

462
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 4: But that's like us thinking as like archivists, you know,

463
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 4: and thinking of the future, whereas advertisers and like executives.

464
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 4: It is a disposable medium, and as much as it

465
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 4: can be recommodified and re monetizes the word that's used,

466
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: that's the only value it has to them. They're not

467
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 4: thinking of it in terms of some sort of big picture,

468
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 4: you know, storytelling device. If they are, it's just as

469
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 4: a selling point to advertise it.

470
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 12: Make me sad, dude, geez.

471
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: I also do love those very early stuff. They don't

472
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: want to know babyface Ben and Matt with the hair

473
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: of it is.

474
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 12: Matt with the hair before I lost it all right.

475
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 11: So many hearts broken on those cheekbones.

476
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, I.

477
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 4: Used to see it right against them. It's a sharp object.

478
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 2: You guys have made obviously a lot of episodes of this.

479
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 2: You've also worked on a lot of other shows, a

480
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: lot of other podcasts and other kinds of projects. I'm curious,

481
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: what do you think gives any kind of media or

482
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 2: creative project staying power, like something that makes it stick

483
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: around in the culture, And what in your experience you

484
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: think contributes to the longevity of podcasts like yours.

485
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 8: Boy Alex said is a great question, and I think

486
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 8: that anyone who says they have that answer is lying

487
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 8: or owns a marketing firm, right, because if the formula

488
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 8: were out there, it's like saying, go make a viral video.

489
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 8: You can't do that. I think it's a show like

490
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 8: stuff you should know has. I think there are some

491
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 8: things that can lend to lasting power, and one is

492
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 8: sort of what we call in the industry evergreen content.

493
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 8: In other words, it's not super of the moment and newsy,

494
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 8: and in one hundred years somebody might want to learn

495
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 8: about something that we've talked about, so hopefully we've got

496
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 8: some staying power.

497
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: I mean, the difference is putting Chuck and I together.

498
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: That's what we've always been told. And at first, I

499
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: remember when we first started kind of getting popular, we

500
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: were trying to figure out what that was, you know.

501
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a pretty normal desire to

502
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: try to at least capture understand like what it is

503
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: that's making things successful. But we figured out we can't

504
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: see it, like we don't. We don't. We feel like,

505
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: you know, connected to one another, but we don't see

506
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: that chemistry that other people who are listening to us,

507
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: you know, get to hear or get to witness, and

508
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: we've just finally just taken it on faith that it

509
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: exists and it's fine and we don't need to understand it.

510
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: As long as everybody else is, you know, kind of

511
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: vibing on it. That's that's what counts.

512
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 8: I totally agree with Josh, and I think I even

513
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 8: had less of an interest in examining that years ago

514
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 8: than he did, because I'm one of those sort of

515
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 8: people who's just like, I don't know what that is,

516
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 8: but it's working, so I don't want to examine it

517
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 8: too closely.

518
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: Well, I remember the reason I was I wanted to

519
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 3: so badly is because I was so terrified about that

520
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: sophomore season curse. You know, I'm saying, like, when a

521
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 3: new TV show comes out and it's a big hit

522
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 3: in its first season, it becomes really self aware, and

523
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 3: very often the second season isn't nearly as good as

524
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: the first. So I was really scared we were going

525
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: to do that. So I think that's why I wanted

526
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: to understand it. But at the same time, I think

527
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: giving up on trying to understand it helped us get

528
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 3: around that second season thing.

529
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 10: I guess I would make a distinction between a podcast

530
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 10: having longevity in the sense that the same show is

531
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 10: continually putting out new episodes for many years, versus the

532
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 10: same finished product, like a piece of audio, having staying

533
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 10: power in the sense that people keep listening to it

534
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 10: over the years. I mean, there are some shows that

535
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 10: you know go on for a long time. I mean

536
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 10: that you know, The Simpsons has been going for however

537
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 10: many seasons. But I would say that some episodes of

538
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 10: The Simpsons really have longevity and others do not. I mean,

539
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 10: everybody's going to remember episodes from season or whatever for

540
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 10: decades and decades, and you know who's going to remember

541
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 10: that episode from season seventeen. I think it tends to

542
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 10: be something that has a has a unique or distinctive quality,

543
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 10: something that separates it from everything else that was being

544
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 10: produced in the same genre.

545
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 9: At the same time, there's sort of a number of

546
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 9: different questions wrapped up in it, right, like why do

547
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 9: people listen to the show? Why do people keep listening

548
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 9: to the show, or why did new people start listening

549
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 9: to the show? And I guess all of those are

550
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 9: all kind of unanswerable in their own ways, right, I mean,

551
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 9: you just can just kind of guess at these things

552
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 9: and hope that the sort of standards you stick to

553
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 9: are the reasons that all of these people have listened,

554
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 9: are listening, or will listen in the future. And I

555
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 9: guess on that count, like we just try and be

556
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 9: honest ourselves, approachable and engaging in curiosity, like honestly engaging

557
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 9: in our own curiosity, and sort of hoping and trusting

558
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 9: that that level of honest cureiosity will be embraced by

559
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 9: the people who listen.

560
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 4: To the show.

561
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: I mean, the bottom line is that, like for something

562
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 5: to have a cultural moment, it has to grab the

563
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 5: attention of like X number of people to begin with.

564
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 5: But there are lots of things that do that and

565
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 5: then they kind of vanish, Like so much of our

566
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 5: show is that, like did you know that this person

567
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 5: was super super famous in nineteen twenty and you've never

568
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 5: heard of them? Like that happens all the time. But

569
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 5: in terms of staying power, I think there has to

570
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 5: be some element to it that is either controversial, which

571
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 5: would be my less favored version, or just so rock

572
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 5: solid in terms of consistency that people know that they

573
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 5: can continue to access that thing and that it's not

574
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 5: going to be suddenly a completely different thing that they

575
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 5: have to learn and understand. Like there's a comfort level

576
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 5: to it. It's got to be one of those too, right,

577
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 5: Like I don't want to ever be part of one

578
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 5: of the controversial ones. But those are the things that

579
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 5: like sticking people's minds forever. And you see it happen

580
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 5: in the Twitter cycle all the time, where someone will

581
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 5: do something stupid and terrible and then it'll kind of

582
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 5: fade away, and then like six months later, someone will go,

583
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 5: do you remember when so and so did this stupid thing?

584
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 5: We should rehash that versus the quieter version is the

585
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 5: consistent version, which is fine with me. I think some

586
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 5: of it is really just luck, and some of it

587
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 5: is having the people who are working on something really

588
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 5: care about what they're doing. I think it's hard to

589
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 5: make something that really captures people's attention if you do

590
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: not care at all about what's going on. But at

591
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 5: the same time, I know a lot of people who

592
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 5: have really poured their hearts into projects and those projects

593
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 5: have never taken off in a big way. Right, So

594
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 5: there's an element to it that I don't know that

595
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 5: anybody necessarily has control over it all, and to return

596
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 5: to Holly's example, there are so many people that are

597
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 5: just doing thoughtless, obtuse things on social media all the time,

598
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: and only like a tiny ninety fraction of them becomes

599
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 5: the main character of social media for the day, you know,

600
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 5: So some of it I think is just random chance.

601
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 5: The other thing though, that I think separates the podcasts

602
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 5: that have longevity and have legs versus that don't, aside

603
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 5: from being able to just stick to making them, is

604
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 5: that I always say that like, your ear can perceive

605
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 5: disingenuous sound faster than your brain can process it, and

606
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 5: so if it's something that's like a nonfiction like what

607
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 5: We Do or whatever, you have to be more real

608
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 5: than polished in my opinion, you know what I mean,

609
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 5: Like there are shows where people sound completely perfect, and

610
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 5: it's like your brain buzzes right out of it, like

611
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 5: it just doesn't stay engaged. And even I think in

612
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 5: cases where you're making something that is more produced or

613
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 5: more fiction oriented, it's the same thing they teach actors

614
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 5: all the time, like, yes, you're playing a part, but

615
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 5: you have to be in that moment for it to

616
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 5: really play. And it's kind of the same thing like

617
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 5: there just has to be a level of engagement, a

618
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 5: genuine intellectual engagement with the material that carries forward to

619
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 5: the listener because remember they're listening in We always talk

620
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 5: about intimacy in the podcasting industry, Like, it's not like

621
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 5: when you go to a movie theater and you watch

622
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 5: something on a screen, or even when you're in your

623
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 5: house and it's on TV where you're at a remove,

624
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 5: it's usually in your bubble of your car or right

625
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 5: on your person. So there's such a depth of intimacy

626
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 5: to it that I think that's why that divide of

627
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 5: like genuine versus not feels so big in podcasts.

628
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

629
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: One of the many jobs that I had before becoming

630
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 5: a podcaster, which is still a little weird to me

631
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 5: ten years in, twelve years in whatever, I was a

632
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 5: massage therapist. And one of the things that we learned

633
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 5: in massage school is that when you are doing a massage,

634
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 5: you need to be really present in the room with

635
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 5: the person and like part of what is healing and

636
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 5: restorative to for lack of a better, less new agy

637
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 5: word about getting a massage that somebody is in the

638
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 5: room with you, being present with you and paying attention

639
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 5: to you the whole time, and when you're getting a massage,

640
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 5: if the person is just mentally checked out and on autopilot,

641
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 5: you can tell. And I think the same is true

642
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: about listening to things that people have created. Somebody is

643
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 5: tossing something off without really engaging with it. As Holly

644
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 5: just said, it's audibly evident, even if the person thinks

645
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 5: they're doing an okay job of phoning it in on

646
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 5: their on their show. Yeah, it's like your brain without

647
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 5: you having any conscious part of it, your brain goes well,

648
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 5: if they're not into it, why should like there's just

649
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 5: an exit that happens without you even really participating in

650
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 5: the decision.

651
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: M Well, my knee jerk. Very business answer is relevance.

652
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: But essentially, the staying power to me is really about

653
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: storytelling and connection. That idea of I'm connecting to a

654
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: story or an experience or something with other people, getting

655
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: lost in it and enjoying it and thinking about all

656
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: of the people who For me, I think about the

657
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: people who made it and the time it was made.

658
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd agree.

659
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 6: I'd say that the staying power of anything depends on

660
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 6: how easy it makes it for you to write to

661
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 6: connect to a story and to connect to the people

662
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 6: who are creating it, to just really, you know, shoehorn

663
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 6: yourself into the mind of someone who you find brilliant

664
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 6: or delightful or terrible or you know whatever, all the

665
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 6: whyever else you're consuming, whatever type of content. I've hate

666
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 6: watched enough things that I don't mind. If that's why

667
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 6: you're listening, that's fine. And so I think that when

668
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 6: a medium starts failing to do that, it's when you've

669
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 6: made it too difficult to access, that you've put too

670
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 6: many loopholes, too many ads, too many you know, pop

671
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 6: ups or whatever it is, that it is too.

672
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: Many ads, never no such thing.

673
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: Because I started in podcasting when it was like first

674
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: getting off the ground. A lot of people will ask

675
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: me like, well, how do you get into podcasting? And

676
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: my joking answer, which I don't always say out loud,

677
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: is get a time machine because we were on the

678
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: ground in the beginning, and so we built those those audiences.

679
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: I will say, though, if somebody loves the thing that

680
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: you did, I think it can still be lasting if

681
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: it has a passion of fan base, and they will

682
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: work to preserve it and share it. And that is

683
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: something that I love because I do that kind of

684
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: stuff too. I don't want to lose this. I'm a

685
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: very like physical I have to have some copy of

686
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: this somewhere in case it goes away one day. And

687
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: I think there are people out there like that. So

688
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: I do agree it's mostly like timing and resources and

689
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: all kinds of things like that. But I also think

690
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: that smaller things that have these sort of niche, very

691
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: passionate audiences can last too because of that.

692
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know the same way that you can have

693
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 6: a sleeper hit that doesn't do that, doesn't like do

694
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 6: the numbers or make the money or whatever it is

695
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 6: that you're ostensibly going for at first, can stick around

696
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 6: in a way that you know, maybe maybe it's a

697
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 6: year down the road and someone goes, oh, I'm cooking plantains,

698
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 6: and didn't Anny and Lauren talk about plantains, And oh,

699
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: someone just mentioned this dish to me. I wonder if

700
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 6: they've ever heard that episode about it, like let's And

701
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 6: it's not always in linear way that I think, especially

702
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 6: in like a corporate version of this job that is

703
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 6: pleasing to all of us involved, like we want it

704
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 6: to do those numbers, we want it to do that

705
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 6: successful thing. But what a success is in terms of

706
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 6: making a creative piece of work is a large, large category.

707
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 11: Art does not exist without an audience, right, So podcasting

708
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 11: is just the same, despite the commodification that happens with

709
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 11: any form of art, education or entertainment. So I would say,

710
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 11: from an audience perspective, you're looking for three things. You're

711
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 11: looking for identification, Do I see myself in this?

712
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: Right?

713
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 11: You're looking for participation, Am I an active part of

714
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 11: this rather than just a passive observer? And from there

715
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 11: you get to this idea of ownership. Right, don't talk

716
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 11: bad about Ira Glass, that's my guy. So I would just,

717
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 11: at least from the audience perspective, I would say identification, participation, ownership.

718
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 12: I think it's changed a little bit. I think it's

719
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 12: now about shareable snippets, literally, that thing that gets posted

720
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 12: on TikTok or an Instagram story or whatever. I think

721
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 12: that's how things catch on now.

722
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 4: But does it have staying power. Catching on and having

723
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: staying power kind of two different things, don't you think?

724
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 12: You're absolutely right? But I think that's how big audiences

725
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 12: grow to create a show that has staying power, Right,

726
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 12: I think that's one of the only ways that you

727
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 12: get in. And it does worry me because it becomes

728
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 12: a strategy for content creators or people who are actually

729
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 12: making things, wanting to have something that lasts for a

730
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 12: long time or it gets big. You're like you're grasping

731
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 12: at those little things on purpose, or you're trying to

732
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 12: crafter content to those things.

733
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know again to the name of

734
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 4: your show, you know, I mean the content has become

735
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 4: increasingly ephemeral, but also increasingly disposable. I mean, I guess

736
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 4: I don't know if i'meral and disposable are kind of similar,

737
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 4: but not really. It just means like fleeting. You know,

738
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 4: it's not something that you can put your arms around

739
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: all the time, but at least in the past. You know,

740
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 4: there's this nostalgia tied to like old mediums and these cycles.

741
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: The technology goes in and now, like vinyl is huge again,

742
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 4: I think as a backlash largely against things like streaming

743
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 4: that feel too ephemeral, and it's like, I don't feel

744
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 4: participatory in this because it's too hard to wrap my

745
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: arms around. And if I own a Vinyl record, then

746
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 4: I'm participating in it, and I'm having ownership of it,

747
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 4: whereas no matter how many streaming services I subscribe to,

748
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 4: I don't ever feel like I own that music. So

749
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 4: it's and it's just much more of a playlist kind

750
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: of culture, you know. So when I buy a record,

751
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 4: it's like I'm participating in that art, and I feel

752
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 4: like I'm you know, I'm filing it away in my

753
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 4: own personal library of congress. I think that's a sad thing.

754
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 4: But also there's always going to be backlash. I saw

755
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: this article in the New York Times the other day

756
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 4: about how I think it's in New York public school.

757
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 4: There these kids the start of this thing called the

758
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 4: Luddite Club, where they're like completely eschewing social media and

759
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 4: and uh and smartphones, you know, so that they can

760
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 4: walk around and look at like a street art and

761
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 4: listen to the sound of you know, the birds and

762
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 4: street musicians. Has experience the world kind of untethered. So

763
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 4: there's always going to be the backlash. And I think

764
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 4: gen Z or whatever the other one is on the

765
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 4: cusp there, they're the ones that are going to kind

766
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: of pioneer that. And as much as they've grown up

767
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 4: on the internet, I think they know how to use

768
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 4: it in a much healthier way than we give them

769
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 4: credit for.

770
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 11: I agree with the observation about the cyclical nature of things, right,

771
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 11: I would also I would also posit that the danger

772
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 11: for a medium like this is one of the most

773
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 11: beautiful things about it. It's democratized, right, It's relatively simple

774
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 11: in terms of time and in terms of materials to

775
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 11: create a show and to put that show on. But

776
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 11: that same beautiful democratization lends itself to what may be

777
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 11: one of the great achilles heels of podcasting overall, which

778
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 11: is that people like to talk. Listening is a skill

779
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 11: people have to learn talking pushing it out. Uh, that's

780
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 11: something people naturally like to do. There is a tremendous,

781
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 11: uh insidious sort of validation in this, right Uh. And

782
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 11: so I think if you look at a lot of

783
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 11: the shows in this medium that that do well, that speak,

784
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 11: that have that stame power to which we're alluding, then

785
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 11: you'll find, as counterintuitive as it may sound, the creators

786
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 11: of those shows spend a lot of time listening.

787
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 3: Right.

788
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 7: The the there's always you know, gloom and doomy forecasting

789
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 7: stuff about uh about a saturation point, right, what what

790
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 7: will there ever be a threshold at which every person

791
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 7: you know has their own podcast and they're not listening

792
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 7: to other shows.

793
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 11: Right because they need to they need to make their podcast, right.

794
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 11: I hope that does not become the case. But again,

795
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 11: I think that's the primary I don't even want to

796
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 11: say danger anymore. The primary obstacle to longevity for some

797
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 11: of these things is to the point about untethering. Untethering

798
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 11: enough from the addiction to speak, to learn and exercise

799
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 11: the amazing art of listening.

800
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: What do you imagine for the long term future of podcasting, Like,

801
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 2: do you think in a hundred years people could be

802
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 2: listening to podcasts that are made now or archiving them?

803
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 4: Oh?

804
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 12: Well, I hope not.

805
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 4: I hope so, boy, I hope so.

806
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 10: To be honest, I mean i'd be I'd somewhat doubt

807
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 10: it because people actually consume very little media from one

808
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 10: hundred years ago, and most of the things they do

809
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 10: consume are kind of standalone works of art, like a

810
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 10: single movie or a single novel. People rarely go back

811
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 10: and like try to, you know, listen to the radio

812
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 10: serials from one hundred years ago. I mean a few

813
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 10: people might.

814
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 9: Well, Alex does, right, this is your thing?

815
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so maybe some people with very Nietzsche

816
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 10: obscure historical interests might still enjoy our podcast the same

817
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 10: way that some people today might want to go back

818
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 10: and listen to some kind of obscure radio serials.

819
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I think that's fine. Like I'm mostly like,

820
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 9: I just I hope people are listening a year from now,

821
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 9: two years from now. I don't really think a century out.

822
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 9: And I don't know, I guess I've kind of I

823
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 9: kind of I'm cool with the idea that like one

824
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 9: hundred years from now that that you know, nobody's gonna

825
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 9: remember me. Maybe you know, people there will be some

826
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 9: connection looking back on you know, like family connections to

827
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 9: me or something. But you know, that's just that's just

828
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 9: how it goes. That's really, I guess how it's supposed

829
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 9: to go.

830
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: I mean, the other thing that I think about is

831
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: if the if they'll even be available right like, like

832
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, there's some serious work that goes into like

833
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 2: archiving stuff that's one hundred years old now, archiving and

834
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: also like making available digitally usually or in physical archives

835
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: for people media that's that old. And like with podcasting,

836
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: we kind of think, like with our model it's like, oh,

837
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: it's everywhere and it's always available and it's free. But

838
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, I wonder how true that is

839
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: long term for a variety of reasons.

840
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 9: Yeah, because who owns it, who's paying for it to

841
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 9: be stored somewhere? You know, generally digitally speaking, But I

842
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 9: guess you could look at it from a physical standpoint

843
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 9: as well. Yeah, like, where where is this stuff one

844
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 9: hundred years from now? That it's anywhere, so.

845
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 10: It's still going to have ear splitting ads that enrage

846
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 10: people baked in one hundred years from now, I hope.

847
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 9: So I mean that really that's probably going to be

848
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 9: the main reason they're going back and listening to the show.

849
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 9: Like you know, nowadays, we look back at VHS tapes

850
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 9: and we're like, oh, man, whoever recorded this off TV?

851
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 9: They were thoughtful enough to cut out all of the advertisements.

852
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 9: And that's the only reason I wanted to find it,

853
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 9: you know, because you can get a better cut of

854
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 9: whatever movie they were taping. But it's those ads you want,

855
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 9: that's the you want the authentic media experience.

856
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 10: I want to watch that vintage easy bakeup and commercial.

857
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, but there's also there's also just no accounting for

858
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 9: taste in the future. Like how many, like how many

859
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 9: of the films we've talked about in Weird House, some

860
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 9: of the lower budget productions. I mean, sometimes you had

861
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 9: someone with a very high estimation of their talents and

862
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 9: worth involved in it, But for the most part, did

863
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 9: any of them think that, well, you know, decades from now,

864
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 9: people are going to be remastering this and putting it

865
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 9: out on a pricey blu ray, and there's going to

866
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 9: be a section of the population is just going to

867
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 9: gobble it up and want more so, and then there

868
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 9: are other things that, you know, they're obviously down the

869
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 9: other end of the spectrum. There are plenty of big

870
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 9: budget movies that came out with aspirations to just be

871
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 9: like real cultural touchstones, and just nobody cares about them today.

872
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 10: That's a great point. I mean Edwood might have thought

873
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 10: he was changing the world, but the guy who made

874
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 10: Robot Monster probably did not yet.

875
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 9: And yet he did right right, Yeah, Yeah, that one

876
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 9: seems a safe bet.

877
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 10: I feel like the organization of the content is also

878
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 10: going to be a problem for future listeners because a

879
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 10: big part of the experience of listening to a podcast

880
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 10: like ours I think at least is not just hearing

881
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 10: a discrete individual episode, but having heard the episodes from

882
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 10: the previous months, and like that episode appearing in a context.

883
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 10: We'll often refer back to things we've talked about previously,

884
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 10: or of course, we have listener mail episodes which are

885
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 10: almost entirely retrospective about things we've already covered. So each

886
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 10: like audio file is kind of enmeshed in an ongoing

887
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 10: experience of relationship with the listeners and coming back to

888
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 10: and thinking about different topics in different ways. So I

889
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 10: feel like that would also be lost if you just

890
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 10: like pull out a random episode from you know, one

891
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 10: hundred years in the future.

892
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sorting out archival materials can be very

893
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: very tricky and stuff to bliw your mind. Would be

894
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: a good candidate for a really hard I mean what

895
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 2: you were saying earlier about how there's so many different

896
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: things and a different name in the beginning, the format

897
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: has changed all these different times. It would be a

898
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: real like if you just got it dumped like in

899
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: a box with no dates, no context, no index.

900
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 9: Well, now you've got me thinking, we need to start

901
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 9: doing time capsule episodes. We need to start producing a

902
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 9: show that will be popular one hundred years from now.

903
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 10: Oh that's interesting. Now, another way to look at it

904
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 10: is that we are we're creating jobs for future archivists

905
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 10: by establishing these problems. You know, this is this is

906
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 10: good problems to solve.

907
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, we got to keep the AI and the future

908
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 9: busy with tasks like this.

909
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, God bless the archivis AI or otherwise.

910
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 5: Listen, there are still people tracking down wax cylinder recordings

911
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 5: and listening to them. So like some very very hyper

912
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 5: focused person will figure out a way to find old

913
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 5: podcasts and listen to them and probably be like those

914
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 5: ding Dongs didn't have a clue what they were talking

915
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 5: about in the context of the future. Beyond that, I

916
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 5: don't know. I do think about it all the time

917
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 5: because we get so much discussion. I mean, you're part

918
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 5: of it a lot within our company, where there's an

919
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 5: awareness that we kind of came in at the beginning

920
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 5: of a new industry and us kind of figuring out

921
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 5: how any of us, either as individuals within the company

922
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 5: or you know, media companies, are charting where that industry goes.

923
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 5: That I almost feel like, even though we probably feel

924
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 5: like we're the old, seasoned hags of this business. In

925
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 5: many ways, it is still in its infancy right when

926
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 5: you think about where television was, say fifteen years into

927
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 5: it being a media versus where it is now. Obviously,

928
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 5: like that seemed still like the infancy to us. So

929
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 5: while we feel like we've been doing this for a

930
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 5: very long time and we're in it and we know

931
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 5: what it is, we don't. So it's very hard when

932
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 5: I think about it in that context of like how

933
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 5: we look back at other media historically, we don't know

934
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 5: because we don't even know the world that will be right,

935
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 5: Like will holograms stand there and say the words that

936
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 5: someone has input into a some format where like there's

937
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 5: a version of me that looks like a Pikachu that's

938
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 5: still talking about like how people discovered color blindness. I

939
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 5: don't know, but that sounds cool. That works for me.

940
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 5: Just in our own limited time span. I mean, we

941
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 5: still get emails from folks who are listening to the

942
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 5: whole archive of the show who will sometimes send in

943
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 5: questions about incredibly early episodes that at this point are

944
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 5: more than a decade old, and it's you know, a

945
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 5: small number of people, but a meaningful number of people.

946
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 5: So I have to imagine that one hundred years from

947
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 5: now still going to be a small, dedicated, meaning like

948
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 5: but meaningful group of people plowing through old recordings of stuff.

949
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 5: They're going to bring it back, like vinyl, because what

950
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 5: do you mean, Well, like vinyl was not the thing

951
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 5: for a long time, and now people are into vinyl again.

952
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 2: Oh you think, like podcasts will go out of fashion

953
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: and then they'll come back in fashion.

954
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 5: It'll be retro. Well I don't even know if it's

955
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 5: if out of fashion is the right word, but it

956
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 5: won't be the most popular method of conveying that information, right,

957
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 5: Like whether that means that things like what we do

958
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 5: are gonna have to be married to visuals or I

959
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 5: don't know, some other thing. I have this great vision.

960
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 5: I don't think this is real. It's just what goes

961
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 5: on in my freaky imagination of like sound experiences where

962
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 5: people have like almost your like inside of a lava lamp,

963
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 5: but the things are moving in time with the things

964
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 5: that you're hearing. Like to me, I'm like, oh yeah,

965
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 5: that would be a great way to experience audio, you know,

966
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 5: even if it's just people talking about like how a

967
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 5: car works or whatever. That sounds great to me. Something

968
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 5: completely different than anything any of us can imagine will

969
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 5: evolve and be the way that that these things are communicated,

970
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 5: and then eventually someone will be like I found this

971
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 5: old technology called an iPod, and who knows what will happen.

972
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 5: Then somehow that made me imagine those immersive art exhibits

973
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 5: the I love it, and like, we went to one

974
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 5: when we were in Paris and it was honestly one

975
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 5: of the best things of the trip. I loved it

976
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 5: so much. But like, I'm imagining a world where people

977
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 5: walk into a warehouse sized space with projections on the

978
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 5: wall and it's our voices, and it's honestly a little

979
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 5: nightmarish to me. Those poor people, I'm so sorry and

980
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 5: advanced future people.

981
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 8: Here in my older middle age, I've started to think

982
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 8: a little bit about legacy and don't want to dwell

983
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 8: on that kind of thing, but it enters my psyche occasionally,

984
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 8: and I think, like, the best legacy I could ever

985
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 8: ask for is that there is a school classroom in

986
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 8: one hundred years where a teacher has dug up our

987
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 8: show and is playing it for you know, the robot

988
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 8: students of the future, all wearing silver jumpsuits exactly.

989
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that there's probably plenty of episodes that

990
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 3: we have recorded that would still hold up in one

991
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: hundred years. I think it would also be interesting, maybe

992
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 3: from like an anthropological standpoint, to look at all the

993
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 3: episodes that don't hold up and figure out why. I'm

994
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 3: interested to see what we've said, what we've covered, what

995
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: topics are just completely antiquated, you know, one hundred years

996
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 3: from now. But I do think that that there's a

997
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 3: pretty decent amount in those fifteen hundred episodes that you

998
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: could listen to one hundred years from now and be like,

999
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 3: get virtually the same thing out of it, at least

1000
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 3: information wise as people of to day. And I think

1001
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 3: that's pretty cool.

1002
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, that'd be really interesting if one day people were like,

1003
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 8: look at this quaint show, remember when there was bitcoin

1004
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 8: and democracy things like that.

1005
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 6: Those are the days that would be wild to me.

1006
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 6: That would be absolutely completely bizarre. However, you know, it's

1007
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 6: twenty twenty three. Certainly consume media from about one hundred

1008
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 6: years ago, especially when it comes to music. I love

1009
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 6: music from that era. I honestly kind of hope that

1010
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 6: they aren't because I feel like the cultural references that

1011
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 6: we're making, and even just some of the stuff that

1012
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 6: we're saying about people in culture will have changed so vastly,

1013
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 6: like the appropriateness of all of that, will have an

1014
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 6: understanding of all of that will have changed so vastly

1015
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 6: as everything does. So I guess if they are I

1016
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 6: hope they're kind to us. I'm a very paranoid soul,

1017
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 6: and I memorize movies and stuff in case the apocalypse happens,

1018
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 6: So I'm not sure. I feel I have grim outlook

1019
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 6: for the future.

1020
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: But that being said, I do think it could be

1021
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: one of those things where people in the future are

1022
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, hey, look what they were doing

1023
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: this time, or sort of a very yeah time bubble

1024
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: encapsulation of this is what they were talking about, this

1025
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: is what they're doing.

1026
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 6: They're like, oh, yes, back in the twenty teens when

1027
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 6: the when all the kids were podcasting.

1028
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or like you know in like survival horror

1029
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: games where you rifle through people's stuff and they have

1030
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: the diaries and it's such like a good example of oh,

1031
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: this is what they were worried about, this is what

1032
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: they were doing. I think podcasts could have a similar thing,

1033
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: hopefully not in the zombie Apocalypse. But you know, a

1034
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: good like snapshot of hey, this is what people were doing,

1035
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: what they were thinking about, what they were talking about,

1036
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: and that is always valuable.

1037
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 6: Like like those those little those little right time capsules

1038
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 6: are are really cool to look into.

1039
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 2: I wonder if they will exist still. I was just

1040
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: watching the New Blade Runner and they've just got this

1041
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: convenient blackout that like happened at some point in in

1042
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 2: the two movies where it's like, oh, like everything, even

1043
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: the hard drives and stuff like lost basically all the data.

1044
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: It was just the paper stuff that survived this thing.

1045
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, as far as I know, no one has put

1046
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 6: us out on like like cassette tapes.

1047
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's one of those things where it's

1048
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 1: hard for me to envision because there's a part of

1049
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 1: me that thinks, you know, audio is such a good

1050
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. It's a very good way

1051
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: of communicating things. I feel like we still use radio

1052
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and that's pretty old. When

1053
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: I explained to like my mom, for instance, who still

1054
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: doesn't know what a podcast is, I'm always like, it's

1055
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: radio essentially on the Internet. So it's hard for me

1056
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: to imagine it goes away completely, but it definitely already

1057
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: feels kind of like the name podcasts, for example, is

1058
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: very like, hmm, that's.

1059
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 5: Outdated, that's not really what it is.

1060
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I feel I feel like something.

1061
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: I feel like something like it will still exist. I'm

1062
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: not sure it will be this form.

1063
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 6: And it's so hard to say with just the amount

1064
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 6: of data loss that humanity has experienced over you know,

1065
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 6: the course of human history, and how much more human

1066
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 6: history we would have if we hadn't lost all of

1067
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 6: that stuff. So it's easy to imagine that some kind

1068
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 6: of sunflair would take out everything and right we would

1069
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 6: have this like return to a to a kind of

1070
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,919
Speaker 6: dark ages where nobody knows who Madonna was or has

1071
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 6: read about her. But what was that sound like?

1072
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 5: We could not tell.

1073
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 6: But it's also with the amount of backups and the

1074
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 6: way that tech has been advancing, it's also completely reasonable

1075
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 6: to think that we have it a little bit better

1076
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 6: down now than we previously have. I don't know, I mean, yeah,

1077
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 6: let's what we really Okay, Annie, what we need to

1078
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 6: do in twenty twenty three is get a record pressing. Yes,

1079
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 6: because I said Cassette tape earlier. But that's like the

1080
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 6: least permanent. That's like the least permanent of data.

1081
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: That's pretty good that probably run into it because thatttes

1082
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: is something to play them on exactly. Yeah, well you

1083
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 2: hit seth up. He'll make records for you low five

1084
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: mono records for reference. See our episode Handmade Records. Oh

1085
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: a right, Okay, Well, I think I like the idea

1086
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: of nothing else of yeah, some maybe idiosyncratic young person

1087
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: one hundred years in the future that doesn't want to

1088
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: learn about Pineapple from like, you know, their hollow book

1089
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: education system and prefers to listen to the you know,

1090
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: archaic musings of Annie and Lauren about the subjects. So

1091
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: I'll hold out hope for that, but get those records pressed.

1092
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're on it, promptest.

1093
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 4: It all depends on if the infrastructure, you know, remains,

1094
00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 4: and if people are treating it correctly and backing it

1095
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 4: up and backing it up onto physical medium. And I

1096
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 4: think there's only enough room for only certain ones, you know,

1097
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 4: not everything goes in the Library of Congress, just the

1098
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 4: important stuff. So who decides that does stuff they don't

1099
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: want you to know get to participate in? That is

1100
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 4: it about rank, you know, is it about listens, is

1101
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 4: it about audience size, or is it like, you know,

1102
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: the items that we choose to send up into space

1103
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 4: that go on that gold disc, that are important enough

1104
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 4: to us that we think maybe extraterrestrials or whatever, you know,

1105
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 4: will understand us through participating in that.

1106
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 11: It's kind of you know, let's let's look at it

1107
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 11: through comparison. Let's say a hundred years ago, you went

1108
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 11: to a you went to a Ford factory. You found

1109
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 11: some people working on that factory line, and you ask them,

1110
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 11: you know, hey, what do you what do you think

1111
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,479
Speaker 11: is going to happen to this car?

1112
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 3: Right?

1113
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 11: They won't think in terms of well, what about this

1114
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 11: car specifically, they'll think of all the other cars they made.

1115
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 11: And the answer, as we've seen, as history has proven,

1116
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 11: is that something like those cars still very much exists

1117
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 11: in innumerable forms. In that specific car when you showed

1118
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 11: up and dropped by their lunch break and ask them,

1119
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 11: that car maybe in a museum. Right, the odds are

1120
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 11: very high that it is not always on the road

1121
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 11: as a daily driver, but the platonic form of it

1122
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 11: exists and is very much alive. So something like the

1123
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 11: ability to communicate to a large mass of people does exist,

1124
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 11: and hopefully it can preserve the depth of communication that

1125
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 11: we're able to explore when we're free from a radio

1126
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 11: clock or a social media real limit.

1127
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 12: I'm just glad we made this because this is real.

1128
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: Matt's holding up the stuff they don't want you to know.

1129
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: Book available wherever books are found.

1130
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 12: This is a book is authored by Bold and uh,

1131
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 12: it's a thing. It's a real friggin thing that you

1132
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 12: can hold and you you know, while it isn't us

1133
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 12: having a conversation, it's born from our conversations, right, and

1134
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 12: from the same research that we use to have our conversations.

1135
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 12: And it's like the spirit or the soul of the show.

1136
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 11: So it's our three men and a baby, you know.

1137
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 9: Alex.

1138
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 4: In the description for your show, I always love this.

1139
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 4: You talk about how you know, I forget the way

1140
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 4: you phrase it, but you refer to like the town dump,

1141
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 4: you know, and like where what you know, where all

1142
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 4: this stuff goes ideas you know, culture and all that stuff,

1143
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 4: and like you're never going to find a podcast in

1144
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 4: a dump, but you can find a book you a dump.

1145
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 12: Well, you'll find a whole bunch of old iPods. There's

1146
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 12: probably in a dump still somewhere. They got a lot of.

1147
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 4: If the battery is dead, you can't crack it, if

1148
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 4: you don't have the right plug, and if there's no electricity.

1149
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 4: You know, just saying they're in there, in there, but

1150
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 4: they're inaccessible. They're locked up like so much you know,

1151
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 4: geological data and an ice core. You know, if you

1152
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 4: can't get to it, does it really exist for you?

1153
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,919
Speaker 4: But the book, you know, exists. And you know, also,

1154
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 4: let's forget about language. We're talking about long enough timeline.

1155
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 4: You know, books obviously decomposed, but language might change and

1156
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 4: it might be completely undecipherable.

1157
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 11: We're doing Beowulf, Yeah, we're doing Canterbury Tales in the

1158
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 11: original form. It also reminds me of music. You know,

1159
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 11: there are are some of the most influential songs in history.

1160
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 11: They have one admitted author, but there are many many variations, right,

1161
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,919
Speaker 11: especially when you get into oral folklore in that form

1162
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 11: of communication. So are we then to define the existence

1163
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 11: of something by the person and the guitar they had

1164
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 11: when they first sang it? Or we and then are

1165
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 11: we going to say because that guitar is gone, because

1166
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 11: that person has passed away, that song no longer exists.

1167
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 11: I guess, I'm I guess, I'm like lazily, I'm taking

1168
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 11: the slow route to uh, what is it? The ship

1169
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 11: of thesis?

1170
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 4: The same thing? I was literally, it's yes, is it?

1171
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 4: If the thing is replaced piece by piece by piece?

1172
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 4: Is it the same thing? And that also kind of

1173
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 4: refers to audio and like a story or whatever, like

1174
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 4: is it if you're not hearing it from a person's mouth,

1175
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 4: you're hearing it digitally reconstructed? Like is it the thing?

1176
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 4: That's more of a philosophical question, But ben you hit

1177
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 4: on what I was just thinking, the exact same thing.

1178
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 4: I don't know how to use that analogy or that story,

1179
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 4: but for some reason, my brain goes there immediately.

1180
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 11: And then of course, going circling back to the very

1181
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 11: beginning of our conversation, if there comes a time, right,

1182
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 11: which I think we all believe is on the way,

1183
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 11: if there comes a time when it is possible to

1184
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 11: plausibly automate the creation of something like this, then not

1185
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 11: just this show, but every show ephemeral could just continue

1186
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 11: in perpetuity, which gets some creative people rightly terror right,

1187
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 11: and then get some accountants all a twitter paid and

1188
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 11: over the moon.

1189
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 4: Right.

1190
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 11: That's the thing, man, It's so it's so it's still

1191
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 11: so new, even though we've we've all been in the

1192
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 11: trenches on it for a lot of our adult lives.

1193
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 11: It's still so new that anybody who says they are

1194
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 11: an expert in the field is lying. They'll question is

1195
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 11: are they lying to themselves or to you?

1196
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 4: Probably both?

1197
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 11: Sorry, Alex, you got three guys who are literally paid

1198
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 11: to talk and then say, hey, tell us about yourselves.

1199
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 12: I just want to add a note here wants thank

1200
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,959
Speaker 12: you Alex for making this show. I think all three

1201
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 12: of us are major fans of what you create. When

1202
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 12: you put out an episode of this, you and Trevor Max,

1203
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 12: the work you guys put in is just it's beautiful

1204
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 12: to listen to. You become immersed every episode in both

1205
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 12: the storytelling and sound design.

1206
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 2: It's just wonderful.

1207
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think it's what podcasts could be.

1208
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 12: You know.

1209
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 11: I am beyond proud to play any sort of little part.

1210
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 4: And while it makes me sad that it's ending, you know,

1211
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 4: for the time being, there is a silver lining in

1212
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 4: that there's not so much of the stuff that you

1213
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 4: couldn't just make a vinyl box set of the whole

1214
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 4: damn thing.

1215
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, we're not letting go of the vinyl thing.

1216
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 9: No, that's going to happen.

1217
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 11: It's a good idea.

1218
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:21,919
Speaker 12: We know a guy.

1219
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 2: You know. There's just one thing that I just was

1220
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: thinking of. It's not a question, but it's just a

1221
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 2: little footnote on something that Noel said, and it echoed

1222
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 2: a conversation I had a couple of years back with

1223
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 2: a kind of Ian Nagoski about how we think of

1224
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: preservation efforts or like archiving efforts, as we all have.

1225
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: We have a tendency to think of them as the

1226
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 2: sort of responsibility of these big cultural institutions like Nash

1227
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 2: shooting stuff out in this space, so the Library of Congress,

1228
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 2: but so much archiving of ephemeral media that I've come across,

1229
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: like early television, early radio, or obscure music and all

1230
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: kinds of other things. It's very often is from like

1231
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 2: someone that worked on it, or descended someone that worked

1232
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 2: on that project, or a fan of Van you know

1233
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: that was just recording that day, you know, on their

1234
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 2: VCR and got something or you know whatever. And I wonder,

1235
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 2: if you know, I would hate to see a world

1236
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 2: like this but there's one hundred years from now and

1237
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: stuff they don't want.

1238
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 4: You know.

1239
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 2: It's like the book is out there, but they can't

1240
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 2: find any record of the podcast. And then one fan

1241
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 2: eden's great great granddaughter comes forward or writer's great great

1242
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 2: grandson comes forward, like I have I have the first episode.

1243
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, some of them may be actually because we don't

1244
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 4: think to do that. Because it's streaming, it's everywhere all

1245
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 4: the time, until it's not.

1246
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 2: Thanks to Matt, Ben, Noel, Annie, Lauren, Robert, Joe, Holly, Tracy, Josh,

1247
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: and Chuck for talking with me this episode and for

1248
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 2: all their support of this show since it's very inception.

1249
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 2: Thanks also to Trevor Young and my brother Max who

1250
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 2: joined me as co hosts in the second season. And

1251
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 2: more gratitude than I can hope to express to the

1252
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 2: countless guests, friends, and especially listeners that have made this

1253
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 2: entire project possible. I never really like long goodbyes. But

1254
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 2: what do you think we should do next? There's certainly

1255
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: no shortage of stories left to tell about everything lost,

1256
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 2: Transient and Ephemeral. You can write Twist directly at Ephemeral

1257
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 2: at iHeartMedia dot com, and we're on social media at

1258
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 2: ephemeral show. Avida's aim.

1259
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 11: Always at worst.

1260
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 3: I don't doubt.

1261
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 8: It, but I realize it's true.

1262
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: So I just dropped into Say Goodbye.