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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 1: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: All right, Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints.

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Speaker 3: There was a massive crackdown on pro Palestime protesters on

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Speaker 3: campuses across.

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Speaker 1: The country, by pro Israel demonstrators.

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Speaker 3: Out at UCLA and by pro Israel proxies NYPD over

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Speaker 3: at Columbia University. We're going to unpack all of that, Emily.

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Speaker 3: What else we've got today? Oh, we've got mugs.

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Speaker 4: We have mugs. We have mugs. We can actually put

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Speaker 4: this up on the screen. We are now a mug

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Speaker 4: company with a news show. That's the that's I think

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Speaker 4: the new mission. Yes, to sell mugs. That's what we're

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Speaker 4: here to do. Counterpoints. Mugs made in the USA, Union decorated,

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Speaker 4: even dishwasher safe available now awfully expensive.

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Speaker 3: But if it makes you feel better. All of the

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Speaker 3: money will be taken by middlemen, and very little we'll.

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Speaker 4: Get to us. Well, it'll go to unions and US workers.

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Speaker 1: That's true. So good middlemen, well organized middlemen. Good for them.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about the Trump interview at Time Magazine.

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Speaker 3: He has just an incredible ability to continue to make

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Speaker 3: himself look bad in these interviews, put out positions that

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Speaker 3: are just contrary to what the general public once.

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Speaker 1: We're going to unpack a bunch of that. Is that

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Speaker 1: an accurate reading.

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Speaker 4: He's also really good at making journalists look bad, so

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Speaker 4: like while he's making himself look bad. Yeah, it's ever one.

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Speaker 3: Also, Joe Biden is moving to reschedule marijuana from Schedule

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Speaker 3: one to Schedule three. We'll talk about when that's going

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Speaker 3: to happen and what the implications of it are. Democrats

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Speaker 3: are teaming up with Mike Johnson to make sure that

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Speaker 3: there's no more drama around the speaker's race. They've announced

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Speaker 3: that they will support him if Marjorie Taylor Green goes

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Speaker 3: forward with her motion to vacate the chair so it

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Speaker 3: would be tabled in a massive down vote for MTG.

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Speaker 3: Weird development, interesting kind of uniparty in Congress Proud and

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Speaker 3: then a friend of yours, author of Pagan America.

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Speaker 4: Hagan America, which is what Ryan always says. Serious, this pagan.

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Speaker 1: America, cribbing my America.

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Speaker 4: Yes, right, it's America. But yeah, it'll be interested to

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Speaker 4: hear some from the right. And John's got a super

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Speaker 4: interesting new book out that we can talk about.

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Speaker 5: Ryan.

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Speaker 4: Some days we say we have a really big show,

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Speaker 4: but we're just kind of saying that for the hell

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Speaker 4: of it to have something to say. Today, we have

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Speaker 4: a big never love, we would never lie. But you

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Speaker 4: know it every shows a big show, of course, but

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Speaker 4: this is really a big show. Because footage continues to

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Speaker 4: roll in, like by the minute from these campuses. They

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Speaker 4: were wild overnight. UCLA in particular, erupted into violent clashes

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Speaker 4: last night with NYPD cleared out the Columbia encampment and

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Speaker 4: the barricades. Let's start there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Columbia University.

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Speaker 3: After the university attempted to clear out the encampment, there

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Speaker 3: what protesters called an autonomous group of mostly students and

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Speaker 3: some faculty occupied Hamilton Hall, which was the site of

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Speaker 3: an ocy. We can roll some of this footage here,

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Speaker 3: which is the site of the famous occupation in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty eight by anti Vietnam War protesters. They renamed it

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Speaker 3: hind Hall for the six year old Hindri Yab, who

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Speaker 3: was the girl that many of you probably remember. She

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Speaker 3: made the desperate, harrowing phone call to rescue workers saying

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Speaker 3: that her entire family had been killed by the IDF

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Speaker 3: and she was begging them to.

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Speaker 1: Rescue her before it got dark. To rescue.

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Speaker 3: Rescue workers were sent out to her as the world

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Speaker 3: was kind of captivated by this intense situation. They'd learned

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Speaker 3: only days later that the IDF had actually attacked the

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Speaker 3: car again and attacked the rest workers and she had died.

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Speaker 3: So the protesters renamed Hamilton Hall, named for Alexander Hamilton,

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Speaker 3: hind Hall. Last night, a called a bear Mars mobile

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Speaker 3: accessibility ramp system or something like that.

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Speaker 4: You just saw this on your screen. In fact, it

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Speaker 4: was that big truck.

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Speaker 1: Like rolled up to the huge equipment from like a

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Speaker 1: medieval or.

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Speaker 4: From a highly industrial era where they have like an

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Speaker 4: actual from what you saw on your screen, speaking of captivating,

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Speaker 4: was NYPD walking up this sort of how would you

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Speaker 4: even describe it? Like a ramp that's on top of

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Speaker 4: the truck into the window of the building, and the

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Speaker 4: other thing you saw on your screen there was a

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Speaker 4: violent clash outside the hall as the protesters sort of

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Speaker 4: tried to form human barricades to prevent the police from

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Speaker 4: going in and clearing out the encampment that was sort

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Speaker 4: of set up inside of the hall that you mentioned Ryan,

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Speaker 4: that had been you know, everyone was seen by now

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Speaker 4: the videos of the chairs being stacked in front of

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Speaker 4: the doors and the students and other protesters formed the

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Speaker 4: human chain. So you had NYPD going into the window

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Speaker 4: several stories up, and then you had them also trying

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Speaker 4: to clear people from that sort of human chain system

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Speaker 4: at the bottom of the building. And that's what was

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Speaker 4: unfolding at Columbia last night.

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Speaker 3: And then so if people were following along on the

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Speaker 3: Guardians live blog, for instance, they shut.

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Speaker 1: It down for the night.

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Speaker 3: They said, all right, everybody's been arrested, and the Columbia

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Speaker 3: University is asking the NYPD to stay on campus effectively

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Speaker 3: through the middle of May so that they can have

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Speaker 3: their graduation. About an hour later, live blogs around the

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Speaker 3: world popped back up because we can roll this here.

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Speaker 3: Pro Israel rioters at UCLA began attacking the encampment at

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Speaker 3: the University of California, Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: We have footage of that here if we want to

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Speaker 1: roll some of that.

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Speaker 6: Approaching plan beyond that, there's nobody else.

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Speaker 1: In some of that footage. You may or may not

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Speaker 1: have been able to hear it.

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Speaker 3: The pro Israel mob was shouting at the one at

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Speaker 3: the one guy outside the barricades there, you're by yourself.

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Speaker 3: Right after they shouted your you're by yourself, several of

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Speaker 3: them grab him, drag him out and start beating him

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Speaker 3: rather rather mercilessly. Are also emerged footage of pro Israel

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Speaker 3: protesters yelling at a woman. They yelled, you stand no chance,

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Speaker 3: old lady. Let's roll that clip and you also heard

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Speaker 3: f you old lady.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And there's photos actually also the fireworks there. Take note,

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Speaker 4: I mean people just saw people launching fireworks into the

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Speaker 4: encampment was a really dangerous thing to do. There's an

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Speaker 4: image that someone, a photographer for the AFP, took of

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Speaker 4: one of the counter protesters actually throwing a barricade or

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Speaker 4: looking to throw a barricade in the direction of some people.

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Speaker 4: You can see how completely dangerous this is. Now you

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Speaker 4: may be wondering who these people are. We're wondering actually

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Speaker 4: the exact same question. The protest group, the Ante Israel

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Speaker 4: protest group on campus says, these are quote Zionist aggressors

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Speaker 4: I'm reading from the NBC News lifelog here, who are

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Speaker 4: not UCLA students that have been quote incessantly verbally and

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Speaker 4: physically harassing us, violently trying to storm the camp and

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Speaker 4: threatening us with weapons. Another update just this morning, the

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Speaker 4: University of Arizona late yesterday that they responded to a

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Speaker 4: quote unlawful assembly on campus by deploying a quote chemical

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Speaker 4: irtant munitions or chemical irritant munitions. So there are forty Yes,

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Speaker 4: that's probably a tear gresser of pepper ball type situation,

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Speaker 4: but there are forty of these encampments more than that

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Speaker 4: spread out around the country. And so this question about UCLA.

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Speaker 4: If you now have you know, as they describe them

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Speaker 4: as quote Zionist aggressors, if you now have counter protesters

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Speaker 4: starting to come into these demonstrations, you have LAPD, you

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Speaker 4: have NYPD in some of the schools in the bigger cities.

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Speaker 4: This is a recipe for serious danger right now. That's

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Speaker 4: I shouldn't say flourishing, but really it is flourishing, starting

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Speaker 4: to spread, proliferate around campuses.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and whether their students are not Zionist digressors probably

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Speaker 3: is objectively true, like they're Zionists and.

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Speaker 4: They're being aggressive. Yes, they might not even take issue

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Speaker 4: with that description.

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Speaker 1: It's just flatly true.

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Speaker 4: But we don't know who they are, we don't know

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Speaker 4: whether they're students. And this was similar actually to just

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Speaker 4: last week when we were talking to Sofia Selfia, a

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Speaker 4: student in the Colombia encampment who joined uslide from the broadcast.

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Speaker 4: Even they are having a hard time determining who the

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Speaker 4: sort of pro Palestine demonstrators are in some cases, whether

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Speaker 4: they're students or when you're in a big city, it's

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Speaker 4: just very easy for members of the community and hangers

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Speaker 4: on to sow chaos.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's worth talking about the rhetoric that helped lead

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Speaker 3: to this. We can put up this next element, the

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Speaker 3: statement from President Biden that was put out just yesterday morning,

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Speaker 3: Echoing some of his other statements. He said, President Biden

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Speaker 3: has stood against repugnant anti Semitic smears and violent rhetoric

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Speaker 3: his entire life. He condemns the use of the term antifada,

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Speaker 3: as he has the other tragic and dangerous hate speech

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Speaker 3: displayed in recent days. President Biden respects the right to

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Speaker 3: free expression, but protests must be peaceful and lawful. Forcibly,

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Speaker 3: taking over buildings is not peaceful, it is wrong, and

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Speaker 3: hate speech and hate symbols have no place in America.

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Speaker 3: Anti Fada, by the way, is an Arabic term for

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Speaker 3: the uprising uh and it can It can mean violent

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Speaker 3: or non violent, just just as uprising can be an

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Speaker 3: up and uprising in English can be either violent or

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Speaker 3: non violent. Somebody pointed out that the Holocaust Museum, in

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Speaker 3: its Arabic translation, refers to the warsaw antifada.

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Speaker 1: It's an uprising.

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Speaker 3: So there's nothing, you know, there's nothing inherently violent about

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Speaker 3: the word antifada. There's definitely nothing inherently anti Semitic about it.

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Speaker 3: There are many people who receive that connotation, you know,

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Speaker 3: when when they hear it.

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Speaker 1: But this is because it's used in.

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Speaker 3: Because the second Antifada did include you know, suicide bombings

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Speaker 3: and and and serious violence, and that's the one that

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Speaker 3: that most people are familiar with, rather than the kind

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Speaker 3: of the term itself.

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Speaker 1: But this is not the first time.

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Speaker 3: Biden in the White House, you know, have have condemned

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Speaker 3: these these protests in a blanket way as anti semitic.

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Speaker 3: And so you can read this to me as a

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Speaker 3: green light both to the NYP to do what they

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Speaker 3: did at Colombia and also to the pro Israel mob

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Speaker 3: and UCLA to do what they did. He has just

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Speaker 3: just like the US in the kind of Israel Palestine conflict.

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Speaker 1: We we claim that we're.

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Speaker 3: Playing a role as a mediator, but we are one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent on one side of the conflict. Here again,

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Speaker 3: President Biden clearly signing one hundred percent kind of with

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Speaker 3: the pro Israel protesters.

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Speaker 1: And there has been virtually no violence.

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Speaker 3: Whatsoever from campus protesters throughout throughout the several weeks of

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Speaker 3: these encampments. There have been moments where you could say,

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Speaker 3: you've seen some signs that have been anti semitic. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there have been some, you know, some like old protesters

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Speaker 3: who have like you know, wandered nearby with like vile

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Speaker 3: anti semitic signs, But there haven't been any accusations of

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Speaker 3: any violence.

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Speaker 4: Except any of them they did to get into the building,

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Speaker 4: they smashed.

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Speaker 1: They smashed their way into the building, no doubt.

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Speaker 4: About that, And that was a I don't believe that

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Speaker 4: the woman who did that was a student. I believe

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Speaker 4: that this has been reported it was like a sixty

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Speaker 4: three year old outside organizer who I mean, maybe that

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Speaker 4: was the strategy to have someone else smash into with

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Speaker 4: a hammer. I think it was into the building that.

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Speaker 1: Was in sixty eight too, Like you had.

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Speaker 3: Tom Hayden, for instance, was the lead organizer of the

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Speaker 3: ninety sixty eight occupation, and he proudly called himself an

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Speaker 3: outside agitator, like they would keep you know, these they

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Speaker 3: would go from campus to campus, you know, helping the

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Speaker 3: students organize.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and your point about Biden is a really interesting

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Speaker 4: one because it's also Chuck Schumer who's come out and

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Speaker 4: like condemned what was happening is quote unquote lawlessness. And

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Speaker 4: again I mean, like it's correct that some of this

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Speaker 4: absolutely is lawlessness. But to the Biden point, it speaks

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Speaker 4: to the sort of political difficulties of Democrats in the

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Speaker 4: United States who are trying desperately not to lose votes

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Speaker 4: in dearborn right because they need Michigan, and so they

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Speaker 4: put out statements like that one.

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Speaker 3: But meanwhile, like the value of a news program like ours,

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Speaker 3: I think is emphasized by moments like this, because are

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Speaker 3: when they are covering this, just clashes erupted, no clue

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Speaker 3: what happened one way or the other. New York Times

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Speaker 3: writes after UCLA declared a pro Palestinian encampment illegal on

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Speaker 3: Tuesday night, clashes broke out and administrators called in the

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Speaker 3: police for help. The LAPD said that it was responded

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Speaker 3: because of quote, multiple acts of violence within the large encampment.

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Speaker 3: Those are words, those are sentences, but they convey no information.

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Speaker 3: What's ironic is over at the intercept. A week or

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Speaker 3: so ago, my colleague Jeremy Skhiale and I published their

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Speaker 3: internal private style guide, which urged reporters not to use

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Speaker 3: words like slaughter or massacre because they were imprecise, they said,

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Speaker 3: and don't use the word occupied territory.

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Speaker 1: That's imprecise. Say Gaza West Bank. Don't say occupied.

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Speaker 3: They're charged, right, yeah, but they don't say they're charged.

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Speaker 3: What they said in the memo is that they're imprecise.

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Speaker 3: They say we for precision. They aim for precision. When

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Speaker 3: they're trying to euphemize is rarely violence. When they're talking

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Speaker 3: about when they're talking about the violence from last night,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, the goal of precision just completely

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Speaker 3: out the window.

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Speaker 1: Just clashes broke out. Where's the precision?

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Speaker 3: All of a sudden, the hunt for precision becomes a

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Speaker 3: hunt for making the sentences as vague as possible so

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Speaker 3: that people are just like ah, in that shame. All

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Speaker 3: of these encampments broke out across the country, and now

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Speaker 3: there's violence. It must must be the pro pousetating protesters

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Speaker 3: getting violent.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a really interesting contrast. Let's also roll

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Speaker 4: this thing that we have from MSNBC. Lawrence O'Donnell was

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Speaker 4: reacting live on MSNBC last night while they were doing

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Speaker 4: a toss off. Let's roll this MSNBC last night.

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Speaker 7: What we have seen on the videos so far is

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Speaker 7: actually the most organized and calmest and most professional police

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Speaker 7: intervention we've ever seen on a college campus.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's a weird way to describe what happened

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Speaker 4: last night. Ryan and I say that as somebody who

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Speaker 4: comes to this from I think we probably disagree on this.

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Speaker 4: I am sick of a being told that it's you know,

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Speaker 4: anti Semitic to disagree with everything that Israel says like that,

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Speaker 4: I'm so sick of it, and the same time, I'm

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Speaker 4: sick of saying being told that it's like anti or

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Speaker 4: that it's just a blanketly pro Israel thing to question

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Speaker 4: any of these protests and people smashing into a hall,

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Speaker 4: kids are trying to take finals, stacking up chairs, barricading themselves,

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Speaker 4: forming human chains, and just like I'm sick of it,

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Speaker 4: I think those people actually should be like, face consequences.

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Speaker 4: That's what civil disobedience is. So I'm just sick of

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Speaker 4: this like stupid binary And even then, looking at what

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Speaker 4: was happening in New York last night and chextaposing it

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Speaker 4: with Laurence O'Donnell is a hell of a contrast.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it shows our sliding scale, because I guess if

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Speaker 3: you compare the NYPD's aultarized response to what the intense

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Speaker 3: police violence at VCU, for instance, or down at UT Austin,

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Speaker 3: I guess it was less violent.

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Speaker 1: But it also the kind of just.

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Speaker 3: The optics of it, the gigantic siege equipment rolling through

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Speaker 3: the street, the riot police, the counter terrorism units being

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Speaker 3: brought in for students. They didn't wield batons like it

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Speaker 3: was nineteen sixty eight. At the Chicago Convention or ut

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Speaker 3: Austin like this week. But it still gives off the

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Speaker 3: appearance of an extraordinarily authoritarian situation for college students and

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Speaker 3: to just who are Yes, they smashed the windows, but

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Speaker 3: they're not violent, they're not they're not they're not dangerous

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Speaker 3: to other people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's why, By the way, it's also extremely unhelpful.

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Speaker 4: And this is where I thought our interview last week

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Speaker 4: with Sofia was really helpful, because it's very, very important

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Speaker 4: to the point of precision to not just use these

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Speaker 4: sort of blankets smears against the students. Actually wrote along

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Speaker 4: piece in the Federalists about this a couple of days ago,

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Speaker 4: because you end up completely misunderstanding what they're doing and

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Speaker 4: misunderstanding what they say they're there to do. Crystal Sen's

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Speaker 4: a great tweet this morning about how at Brown University

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Speaker 4: handled their protests completely different. They actually just like held

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Speaker 4: a vote on divestment and dealt.

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Speaker 1: With schedule one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, they agreed to schedule vote, but like actually

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Speaker 4: dealt with the demand that the protesters were making, which

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Speaker 4: was very specifically divestment. That isn't to say they haven't

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Speaker 4: broadened it, but the point of the encampment was to

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Speaker 4: force a vote on divestment. And I get that if

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Speaker 4: you give in to those protests, like you can create

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Speaker 4: a bigger situation. But I think everyone on Columbia's university

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Speaker 4: Columbia University's campus right now says this has been wildly

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Speaker 4: mismanaged by the school. Whether you're on one side or

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Speaker 4: the other, everyone agrees, like Colombia completely completely botched this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so Brown will hold a divestment vote in

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Speaker 3: October of next year on whether to continue investing in

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Speaker 3: general and Israeli companies or was it was is it

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Speaker 3: specifically connected, Oh, it's I think it's fund specifically connected

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Speaker 3: to the Israeli military campaign in Gaza. As The New

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Speaker 3: York Times reports, University of Chicago has also handled this

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Speaker 3: in a much more kind of reasonable and civil way.

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Speaker 3: They said, look that these this encampment is breaking our rules,

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Speaker 3: but we also as a principal, support free expression. And

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Speaker 3: as long as they're not disrupting people's ability to do

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Speaker 3: their own expression, people's ability to get the class, as

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Speaker 3: long as they're not endangering public safety.

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Speaker 1: We're going to give some leeway here. We're going to.

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Speaker 3: Encourage people to express themselves other ways, but we're not

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Speaker 3: going to bring in a militarized response here.

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Speaker 1: UCLA in some ways did the same thing.

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Speaker 3: It was, but it was the kind of pro Israel

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Speaker 3: demonstrators that that that escalated things last night, but only

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Speaker 3: after you know, not only Biden's comments, but also UCLA

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Speaker 3: itself saying okay, this is an illegal encampment that that

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Speaker 3: seems to have given the counter protest there's the green

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Speaker 3: light to go ahead and do what they did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I mean it's it's been like the University

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Speaker 4: of Chicago response was I actually think kind of pitch perfect,

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Speaker 4: and they've been doing pitch perfect responses to these type

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Speaker 4: of things. They're like actually consistent in the free speech,

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Speaker 4: free speech space. There's the University of Chicago letter that

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Speaker 4: was some people may be familiar with actually like a

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Speaker 4: really big deal when it started circulating almost ten years

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Speaker 4: ago now, pushing back on some of the schools that

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Speaker 4: were giving into crazy speech demands of the left. Actually,

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Speaker 4: and so to see the consistency on this from places

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Speaker 4: like universities, I have to see consistency heartening. Yeah, absolutely

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Speaker 4: absolutely is.

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Speaker 3: Last point I would make is to the protesters, particularly

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Speaker 3: ones at UCLA and elsewhere who feel like their strategy

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Speaker 3: of nonviolence is no longer effective, that it can't be

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Speaker 3: effective in the face of this violent response. I would say,

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Speaker 3: you know, effect of non violence is always met with violence. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but that is part of it's virtue. Like that is

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Speaker 3: that is part of its value. It exposes the cruel

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Speaker 3: face of the system that you're opposing.

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Speaker 4: That is the fundamental premise of civil disobedience is the

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Speaker 4: civility of it. And that's why those images are are

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Speaker 4: so poignant from the American civil rights era of just

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Speaker 4: abject stoicism on the faces of people who are, you know,

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Speaker 4: confronting consequences for violating certain laws, but are doing it

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Speaker 4: just stoically. And that's baked into the American narrative about

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Speaker 4: how that changed hearts and minds that people believe so

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Speaker 4: deeply in this that rather than giving in to the

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Speaker 4: forces of inscibility, rather than you know, joining the people

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Speaker 4: who as you know, we talked to Savia about this

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Speaker 4: and talked to other students of Columbia about this. The

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Speaker 4: hangers on who come with or even some of the

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Speaker 4: students who say things that are legitimately calls for violence

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Speaker 4: or are not civil instead of giving into that or

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Speaker 4: returning it with violence. There's so much power to your point, Ryan,

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Speaker 4: and remaining civil in the face of aggress Yes.

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Speaker 3: So I would say stay true, stay true to your

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Speaker 3: non violent values, not in spite of the violence, but

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Speaker 3: you know, because of and in the face of the

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Speaker 3: violence from counter protesters. Let's move on to the violence.

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister Benjamin Nenyaho publicly addressing the rumors that he

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Speaker 3: kind of got going that the International Criminal Court may

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Speaker 3: launch charges against him and senior leaders of Israel for

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Speaker 3: war crimes.

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Speaker 1: Let's roll Nenyahu here.

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Speaker 5: The International Criminal Court in the League is contemplating issuing

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Speaker 5: arrest wants against senior Israeli government and military officials as

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Speaker 5: war criminals. This would be an outrage of historic proportions.

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Speaker 5: International bodies like the icy c arose in the wake

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Speaker 5: of the Holocaust committed against the Jewish people. They were

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Speaker 5: set up to prevent such ores, to prevent future genocides.

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Speaker 5: Yet now the International Court is trying to put Israel

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Speaker 5: in the dock. It's trying to put us in the

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Speaker 5: dock as we defend ourselves against genocidal terrorists and regimes Iran.

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Speaker 5: Of course that openly works to destroy the one and

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Speaker 5: only Jewish state. Branding Israel's leaders and soldiers as war criminals,

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Speaker 5: will pour jet fuel on the fires of anti Semitism,

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Speaker 5: those fires that are already raging on the campuses of

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Speaker 5: America and across capitals around the world. It will also

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Speaker 5: be the first time that a democratic country fighting for

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Speaker 5: its life according to the rules of war is it

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Speaker 5: self accused of war crimes. The Israeli army, the idea,

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Speaker 5: is one of the most moral militaries in the world.

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Speaker 3: It takes endless measures to practivilians. We've heard that before.

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Speaker 3: So the NENYAHUO pressured the US to come out publicly

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Speaker 3: and defend Israel against the rumors that Israel peers to

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Speaker 3: have started itself, that the ICC was coming at them,

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Speaker 3: and the White House did. The White House said, we

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Speaker 3: do not believe that the ICC has jurisdiction over Israel.

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Speaker 3: Their argument they're making is that Israel has not signed

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Speaker 3: on to the ICC itself. However, Palestinians have, and when

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Speaker 3: the ICC launched charges against Vladimir Putin, the US applauded

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Speaker 3: those charges. Russia is not a signatory to the ICC,

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Speaker 3: but Ukraine is, and that is why the ICC has jurisdiction.

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Speaker 3: If you are committing a crime against a member, a

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Speaker 3: signatory of the ICC, then the ICC has jurisdiction whether

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Speaker 3: you're a signatory or not. That was the principle that

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Speaker 3: the White House believed when the ICC charged putin all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, that doesn't apply anymore in this case.

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Speaker 3: Not long after the US gave that Yahoo the assurance

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Speaker 3: that he wanted, that Yahoo came out and said that

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Speaker 3: even if he cuts a hostage deal with Hamas, he

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Speaker 3: is still going to launch an invasion into Rafa.

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Speaker 4: It's very interesting to hear Net and Yahoo alluding to

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Speaker 4: these sort of international rules that were largely agreed upon

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Speaker 4: in the wake of the Holocaust, and he referenced that directly,

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Speaker 4: and to see the way that they are used selectively

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Speaker 4: and as blunt forced objects. I mean, it is exactly

437
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 4: true that we all we've talked about this many times.

438
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 4: We came together after World War Two, after the Holocaust,

439
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 4: the level of industrial slaughter the world had never seen

440
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 4: and stead this is and that's you know, includes things

441
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 4: like Dresden and nuclear weapons. We came together and said

442
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 4: there this is not sustainable for humanity, and these are

443
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 4: the new sort of ethical again. Yeah, right, And these

444
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 4: are the ethical guidelines that we'll look to going forward,

445
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 4: and we agree with them when we want to agree

446
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 4: with them, when it's blunt forth first object that we

447
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: can use against enemies for the sake of our in

448
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 4: foreign policy goals. And then we say, well, those are

449
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 4: non binding or nobody signed on to that or whatever.

450
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 4: It's just the sanctimony that goes behind the United States

451
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 4: AND's allies in the West wielding them. Not just like

452
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 4: the Putin thing is such a good example. I mean,

453
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 4: it was just the level of credibility we assigned to

454
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 4: it when we wanted to use it there. I mean,

455
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 4: that's as good an example as you can get.

456
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much for the rules based international order.

457
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, there's there's reporting where you can put up this

458
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: next element that the US is contemplating accepting significant numbers

459
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 3: of Palestinian refugees who were trying to flee Gaza. And

460
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 3: what's fascinating about this news is that, you know, for

461
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 3: the most part, we have accepted very few dozens of

462
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 3: Palestinian refugees over the years, and when we have it

463
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: is refugees who are claiming political asylum from Hamas, and

464
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: HAMAS is a vindictive organization toward its critics absolutely, and

465
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: so people who are kind of dissidence again and critics

466
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 3: of Hamas like have some have been legitimately granted refugee

467
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: status here in the United States.

468
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: Not many, not many, like dozens.

469
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I pulled the numbers last night. It's actually

470
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: kind of shocking.

471
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: Sixty something, what is it?

472
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 4: Last ten years, US has resettled more than four hundred

473
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 4: thousand refugees from CBS CBS fleeing violence, and in twenty

474
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 4: twenty three fifty six Palestinian refugees, So that was points.

475
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 4: There are nine percent of sixty thousand refugees in that

476
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 4: twelve month period.

477
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: Right, and so in order to in order to boost

478
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 3: that number up to the number of people who need

479
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 3: actual safe havens at this point, what the US would

480
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 3: have to do is grant them asylum basically from themselves,

481
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: because they would have to grant them asylum from Israel,

482
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: from the idea, from the military campaign.

483
00:26:58,800 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 4: They need Egypt's cooperation.

484
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: But the legal rationale for accepting this many refugees from

485
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: Gaza would be that they are persecuted by Israel and

486
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: we are supplying the weapons and the political support and

487
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: the global the global support for that very persecution which

488
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: we are then going to give asylum against. So we'll

489
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: be giving them asilum in our country against ourselves.

490
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: Basically.

491
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, we talk about this when we talk about the border.

492
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: So asylum is actually much more narrow category than it's

493
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 4: often used. And then it's been used in our southern

494
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: border in particular. So you have to prove that you're

495
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: being targeted based on your nationality, religion, or your political views.

496
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: And so you can see pretty easily how that argument

497
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 4: can be made, and you can pull a million quotes

498
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 4: from Israeli government on this point and talk about what's happened,

499
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: you know, in your community in Gaza when you're applying

500
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 4: for asylum. Now, they absolutely could still use hamas and

501
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: you know they could, that could be the rationale that

502
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: a lot of them give, but they could also you

503
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 4: can see start making an argument in the other direction.

504
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: And it reminds me, actually, Ryan of how the US

505
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: sanctioned that unit of the idea recently. Is like it's

506
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 4: the same sort of strange circular logic and listen, if

507
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: people as refugees are coming to the United States and

508
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 4: they want to be citizens of the United States. That's great.

509
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 4: I think that's awesome. There's public polling out of Palestine

510
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 4: that suggests a big chunk of the population there in

511
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 4: Polling is tough there. But this is when the Palestinian

512
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: Center for Policy and Survey Research in December, seventy two

513
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 4: percent of Palestinians quote believe that Hamasa's decision to launch

514
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: the October seventh attack was correct. Now, again, we can

515
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: debate what that means, but it definitely means this fundamental

516
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 4: disagreement with US foreign policy, and you can understand why

517
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 4: people in Palestine would have a very hostile approach towards

518
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 4: United sert perspective towards the United States foreign policy. So

519
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 4: does this so discord and communities. I don't know that

520
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: enough people will be accepted that it'll so discord around communities.

521
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 4: To be honest with fifty six and twenty twenty three,

522
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 4: that was one of the most violent recent years on

523
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 4: record in Palestine. And so that's what a lot of

524
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 4: people on the right are worried about. You know, we're

525
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 4: going to import a bunch of people who hate America.

526
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: I don't know that they're going to be able to

527
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 4: get enough people out that that becomes a problem, to

528
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 4: be honest.

529
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the Israeli governments, you know, put out a

530
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: lot of white papers and other and trial balloons showing

531
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: that the plan was to depopulate you know, Gaza going

532
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: in and so yeah, on the one hand, this this

533
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 3: plays into the effort to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip

534
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: of Palestinians and then and rebuild it as Israeli's on

535
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 3: as Jared Kushner said, you know, waterfront, waterfront property.

536
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: Maybe they'll use Kushner's quote the never silent abligations.

537
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: At the same time, the area is going to be

538
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: uninhabitable for many years. It's the nor Northern Gaza for instance.

539
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: You know, so a normal bomb an ordinance getting dropped

540
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: from a plane in a battlefield or fired elsewhere, it

541
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: has something like a ten percent failure rate. Israel does

542
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: not use these weapons normally. You know, they're dropping them

543
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: in areas where they're going to have a much higher

544
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 3: failure rate. And so maybe you're pushing twenty percent failure

545
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: rate and you're talking of you know, thousands and thousands

546
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: of bombs being dropped on Gaza. Those are fairly stable

547
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: unexploded ordinance until they are disrupted by a bulldozer or

548
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: some type of construction during a rebuilding process. It's impossible

549
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: to overstate how time consuming it is to extract these

550
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: weapons in northwest Washington, d C. Where they did where

551
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: they did basically chemical weapons testing during World War One.

552
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: They are still to this day finding unexploded like mustard

553
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: gas ordinances in Washington, d C. Near American University where

554
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 3: that research which was carried out more than one hundred

555
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: years later.

556
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: And so.

557
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: It's just going to be borderline impossible for hundreds of

558
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: thousands of people to return to their homes anytime soon,

559
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: which means they're going to have to live somewhere.

560
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 4: And just before we wrap, let's put this poll up

561
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: on the screen. This is reporting in the Jerusalem Post

562
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: about a new poll published by end twelve. Over half

563
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 4: of the Israeli public beliefs that Prime Minister Benjamin Ninyaho

564
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: should resign immediately, including twenty eight percent of those who

565
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 4: voted for the block that supports nt Yahoo. Forty eight

566
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 4: percent of Israeli's believe Defense Minister Galant should resign immediately.

567
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 8: Wow.

568
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 4: I mean, like if you keep going down the line,

569
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: here there's fifty percent believe the idea of chief of

570
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: staff should resign, fifty six percent believe that the head

571
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 4: of Shinbet should resign right now. I mean fifty four

572
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: percent of respondent said that the elections should be held earlier.

573
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 4: So that's not just opposition in net Yahoo. That's immediate,

574
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: urgent opposition to Net Yahoo. And obviously in Israel there's

575
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: opposition from uh like, both sides. So people who are

576
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: you know, more hardcore that want, you know, Net Yahoo

577
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 4: to go even harder than he has gone. And then

578
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 4: there are people who disagree that he was, thinking he's

579
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 4: already gone too far, and then he's been you know,

580
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 4: mismanaging the situations and incompetent. But all that is to say,

581
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 4: this is a pretty untenable situation for net Yahoo and

582
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 4: his coalition at the moment.

583
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: In Israel, it's been a strategic failure in every sense

584
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: of the word world word up and down from net

585
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: Yahoo and his managing of the conflict before and after

586
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: October seventh.

587
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the Israeli public is picking up on that,

588
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 4: no doubt about it. Donald Trump just yesterday he was

589
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: back in court and as day nine, day nine on

590
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: the hush money trial. Donald Trump was held in violation

591
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 4: of his gag order once again. It's the second time

592
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: that he's actually been sanctioned for violating the gag order.

593
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 4: And this is there's kind of some interesting new one

594
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: in this particular ruling because the judge one Merchant find

595
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: Donald Trump, but he said because he was criticizing expected

596
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: trial witnesses, So that would be Michael Cohen in particular.

597
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 4: That's a big one, Stormy Daniels, that's a big one.

598
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 4: He's criticized the makeup of the jury pool. But what

599
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: Merchant said is that it's specifically related, like you can

600
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 4: talk about the trial, but it's specifically you cannot keep

601
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: talking about these expected witnesses. And that's obviously a pretty

602
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 4: huge distinction because it addresses the central issue of Donald

603
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: Trump's argument, which is I have to be able, like

604
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 4: this is the middle of a campaign. I have to

605
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: be able to make my case to the public, So

606
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: you have to let me talk about this trial. I'm

607
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 4: running for president of the United States. So Merchant narrowed

608
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 4: it and said, this is specifically about you know, talking

609
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: about so specifically about the key witnesses here, not just

610
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: about the case in General. And then Donald Trump sat

611
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 4: for an interview with Time that was released yesterday that

612
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 4: was just of incredible quotes. Yeah, just a lot happening.

613
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: When he when he said he was barred from commenting

614
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: on the makeup of the jury because it's Trump.

615
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: I thought he was talking about makeup, because he would

616
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: do that. He would do that.

617
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: He's got every year, he's got opinions on fashion Week.

618
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: But no, apparently he's talking about the jury itself, and

619
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 3: you're not supposed to do.

620
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: You know, that violates the gag order.

621
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,959
Speaker 3: And so he got a thousand dollars fine for each

622
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: kind of truth Social tweet.

623
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: He put up, yeah, one.

624
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 3: Thousand dollars for nine posts, and he was made to

625
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 3: delete the posts and the judge said, you know you

626
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 3: you could get incarceratory penalties next time.

627
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 4: And he removed the posts. By the way he did,

628
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,959
Speaker 4: he took them down. So he removed seven from truth

629
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 4: Social and two from his campaign website, and he owes

630
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 4: nine thousand dollars. He could, you know, end up with

631
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 4: as you said, Ryan, the consequences could only increase. But

632
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: the fact that he actually took down all of the posts,

633
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 4: it looks like he's throwing in the towel in most

634
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 4: particular on this particular point. And actually, I think it's

635
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 4: kind of a fair decision that you can't be going

636
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 4: after the key witnesses. You can still talk about the trial, though.

637
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 4: I guess that gives him a little roadmap to making

638
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 4: his case in the public.

639
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 3: Just be careful there, mister president. I'd love to get

640
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: your take on his Time interview, though. Let's highlight a

641
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: couple of them.

642
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 4: I mean, so if you go on Time's website and

643
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 4: we can put this element up on the screen, they

644
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 4: do the thing where they give you the amount of

645
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 4: time it'll take to read the article eighty three minutes.

646
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 4: The eighty three minute read he had this. Really it

647
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 4: must have been a two hour interview, would be my guess,

648
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 4: after you account for the editing, for clarity and everything

649
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 4: that goes into publishing a transcript. And I love when

650
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 4: they just published the transcript, the raw transcript. We pulled

651
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 4: a couple of highlights from it. He basically the journalist

652
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: basically got Trump to touch on everything under the sun.

653
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 4: But we can move to this first poll quote because

654
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 4: I want to start with the economy, because you know, honestly,

655
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 4: we're talking a lot about foreign policy on this show

656
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 4: and the discourse in general. For obvious reasons, a lot

657
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: of American voters are going to be primarily voting on

658
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: the economy when they go to the polls in November.

659
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: So this is Trump saying he's getting asked by the

660
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 4: journalist about his ten percent tariff funal imports and a

661
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 4: sixty percent tariff on Chinese imports. Asked if that's still

662
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 4: his plan, and Trump says, quote, it may be more

663
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 4: than that. RN. I actually thought that was very interesting.

664
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And then he and then he's may be

665
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: a derivative of that.

666
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: Derivative of that. I don't know what he means by

667
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: derivative there, nobody knows, And you're right. And so the

668
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 3: reporter press is like, really, it could could be more

669
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: than ten percent. He's saying, yes, yes, it could be.

670
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 3: And then he says it's not actually going to raise prices.

671
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: It's just going to cost China money and it's going

672
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 3: to put a bunch of money in Chinese coffers. That's

673
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 3: you can that's nonsense, Like it's fine to support tariffs.

674
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that tariffs.

675
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: You know, have a real serious role to play when

676
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: it comes to building your domestic manufacturing base, like that's

677
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: they're important, but in the immediate term, they're going to

678
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 3: cause inflation, like they're going to prices are going to

679
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: go up, Like that's how that's how tariffs operate.

680
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: Well, this created a huge point. This like created a

681
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 4: huge debate on econ Twitter yesterday about the technical definition

682
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 4: of inflation because a lot of people were saying Donald

683
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 4: Trump is campaigning against inflation but also campaigning on a tariff.

684
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 4: And then economists were like, actually, this important distinction. Inflation

685
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 4: is not the same as like pricing creases and Ryan

686
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 4: you just you just need to be precision here, right.

687
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: No, but they're right, But it's interesting they're true that.

688
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: That's right from a from an economic textbook perspective, there

689
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: those are those are different things. And inflation refers to

690
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 3: just when there's kind of more money in the economy,

691
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 3: mean chasing like a smaller number of you know, or

692
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: not enough goods, Like that's inflation. But from the perspective

693
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: of somebody who's going to the store, yeah, it's the same.

694
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: It's the same buying something. Yes, they see the price rise,

695
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: and people aren't people don't kind of object to the

696
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: concept of inflation, but they're okay with price increases. They

697
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: don't like when things cost more and when their wages

698
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 3: are not keeping up with the cost of things going up.

699
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: That's something.

700
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 3: And you know, in some ways they don't care whether

701
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 3: it's greedflation from corporations, right oh, rising prices, whether it's

702
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: supply shocks from the pandemic and the reopening of the

703
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: economy and the port's being all cluttered, or whether it's

704
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 3: fiscal policy monetary policy. Like, what people don't like is

705
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: when they go to the grocery store and it used

706
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: to cost fifty dollars for a bag and I was eighty.

707
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: Dollars for a bag or whatever. That's what they don't like.

708
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 3: And so Trump is going to learn that the hard

709
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 3: way if he doesn't figure out a way to come

710
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: at this in a way that gets prices down.

711
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's true that, for example, Joe Biden has

712
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: no control over greedflation. I shouldn't say no control. He

713
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: doesn't have a lot of control over greedflation, but you know,

714
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: unless he sort of. But I mean, just even like

715
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 4: policy wise, these are private businesses making terrible decisions as

716
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 4: private businesses.

717
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: And good decisions for themselves.

718
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 4: Make good decisions for themselves. You know, you got to

719
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 4: have some money for the buybacks, but.

720
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 3: Try to figure out a way to get corporations to

721
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 3: you know.

722
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: So it's actually an interesting point.

723
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: John Kenneth Gallbraith included prices in his understanding of the

724
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: government's role in the economy. Like we understand that the

725
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: government and through the FED, plays a role in inflation,

726
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: plays a role in unemployment and labor and wages, and

727
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,479
Speaker 3: we always have had understood that the government also played

728
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 3: a role in prices. In the seventies, we moved away

729
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: from that and we said, well, prices, what can you do,

730
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: just like the weather. But actually it is a function

731
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: of a government and private sector interacting. And so we

732
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: could actually come in and mess with prices if we

733
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 3: wanted to, and I think we should.

734
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's a side point.

735
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 4: But it's interesting because right the voters are always going

736
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 4: to blame, you know, in the same way that Joe

737
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 4: Biden is getting a lot of blame for you know,

738
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 4: even I think he deserves some of the blame. He

739
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 4: spent a ton of money and that's always behind inflation.

740
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 4: But there's also a component of this, even from the right.

741
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 4: I agree that was gre inflation, and voters just don't

742
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 4: want to hear you scapegoat They know prices are higher,

743
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 4: they don't want you to downplay higher prices, and they

744
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 4: don't want you to scapegoat whether it's China or greedy CEOs.

745
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 4: I think Donald Trump is probably better at communicating why

746
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 4: he you know, describes some of the blame to China

747
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 4: in these cases, but he will learn that lesson. Nonetheless,

748
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 4: he had a pretty good economy during his administration until

749
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 4: COVID hit. And what's going to happen if you know

750
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 4: you have a ten percent tariff, it's he's going to

751
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 4: have to confront people who are upset about that. And

752
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 4: we saw it kind of happen with farmers and all

753
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 4: of that over the course of the administration, and he

754
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 4: maintained some I think, pretty impressive levels of support from farmers.

755
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 4: But in a way, yes, it's the Biden lesson can

756
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 4: also be the Trump lesson that you know, when people

757
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 4: are paying higher prices, they don't want to hear excuses

758
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 4: from the president, even if the president himself is not

759
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: waving his magic wand or couldn't wave a magic wand

760
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: and tackle things one thing. Also Bran, my apologies to

761
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 4: the control and I skipped this, but let's put B

762
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 4: two up on the screen, because if I were interviewing

763
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 4: Donald Trump right now, this is basically the question that

764
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 4: I would want the answer to. You know, they if president,

765
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 4: if a president doesn't get immunity. This is what Trump

766
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 4: tells Time about the Supreme Court case that's pending right now.

767
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 4: He said, quote, then Biden, I am sure will be

768
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 4: prosecuted for all of his crimes. Trump said that if

769
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 4: presidents do get immunity, He went on to say, basically,

770
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 4: that's great that Joe Biden will not be prosecuted for

771
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 4: his many crimes, but you know, and said that he wouldn't,

772
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 4: you know, push for or implied basically argued that he

773
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 4: wouldn't push for Joe Biden if presidents have immunity to

774
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 4: then be responsible for all of these different allegations alleged

775
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 4: crimes that Joe Biden has been involved with. But I

776
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 4: think that's really one of the most important questions is

777
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 4: what we see from Donald Trump in the next Trump

778
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 4: administration potentially if he is elected president, voters should know

779
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 4: exactly how he plans to wield the state wield the

780
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 4: powers of the state against political opponents, because that's what

781
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 4: he's campaigning against right now.

782
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, how vindictive do you think he will be if

783
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 3: he becomes president? Is he going to throw the Justice

784
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 3: Department at a bunch of his enemies.

785
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 4: I think it's really hard to say, because he likes

786
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: being liked, and he in the last administration was really

787
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 4: torn in two different directions from sort of the hardcore

788
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 4: right people and then the neo conservative moderates, And you know,

789
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 4: he never really figured that out himself, like which balance

790
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 4: you know worked best. He was intentionally having them fight

791
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 4: each other over what his policy should be. So I

792
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: just really have a hard time making a prediction on that.

793
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,479
Speaker 4: I don't know. What do you think?

794
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he probably will be.

795
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: I think he'll I think he's so angry about what

796
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: he's going through now that he feels it's unjust and

797
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 3: a witch hunt and election interference and persecution, that I

798
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: think he would that. I think he will. I think

799
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 3: he'll try. Whether or not the wheels can get rolled

800
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: through the Justice Department is another question, but I think

801
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: he'll definitely try.

802
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 4: So we'll put be five up on the screen here

803
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: because time got him to respond to questions about the

804
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 4: war as well in Israel. I want to know you

805
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: said you want to get Israel to wind down the war.

806
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 4: You said it needs to get over with. How are

807
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 4: you going to make that happen? The reporter asked, would

808
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 4: you consider withholding aid? Trump really wouldn't give a clear

809
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 4: answer to that question about withholding aid. He said, I

810
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 4: think that Israel has done one thing very badly public relations.

811
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 4: No argument there, Ryan. I don't think that the Israel

812
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 4: Defense Fund or any other group should be sending out

813
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 4: pictures every night of buildings falling down and being bombed

814
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 4: with possibly people in those buildings every single night, which

815
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 4: is what they do. That's obviously not just a public

816
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 4: relations argument, which is why I chuckle the lad but

817
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 4: because he's framing in as a public relations argument and

818
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 4: he's avoiding answering the question about whether he would withhold AID.

819
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 4: But that's also when you're talking about buildings that might

820
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 4: have people in them. That's also him criticizing the policy.

821
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what he would do if he was

822
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 4: in office. Obviously he was cozy with Netanyahu, even though

823
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 4: he's not been cozy with him, at least rhetorically in

824
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 4: the press. Now again, I think it's it's very hard

825
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 4: to predict what you see come out of a second

826
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 4: Trump administration, but at least interesting that the father in

827
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 4: law of Jared Kushner is talking that way.

828
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: It's an interesting way to smuggle in criticism because it's

829
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: completely acceptable on the pro Israel side to say that

830
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: ITUAL hasn't been good at it's PR right like that.

831
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 3: That's always a fine thing for any kind of ally

832
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 3: to criticize their their.

833
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: Own organization or group of PR.

834
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: PR bad PR. You're great, You're doing great. Everything you're

835
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: doing is great. People just don't understand how great you are.

836
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: That's basically what that's saying. But your point is exactly right.

837
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: He doesn't talk about PR. Then he talks about war crimes,

838
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: talks about about bombing civilians and flattening buildings, and then

839
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: he does talk about the PR reaction to that. They

840
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: then broadcast that, so he you know, he's seeing the

841
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 3: fact that Israel's broadcasting a lot of its crimes, and

842
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 3: whether he's seeing a lot of the kind of the

843
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 3: IDF soldiers and they're and their tiktoks and they're and

844
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: their reels where they're wearing women's clothing, or whether they're

845
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: blowing up moss or blowing up schools or like riding

846
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: around on children's bikes.

847
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, like all of this stuff is being broadcast.

848
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 3: So it is a combination of war crimes that is

849
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: that are a fundamental problem of substance, but then also

850
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 3: the lack of shame about them and the broadcasting of

851
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 3: them to the world. So yeah, he's see and and

852
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: I think one thing that bothers him is that it

853
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 3: causes problems for him now, it causes bigger problems for Biden.

854
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: So he's happy with that at the moment. But I

855
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: think he's like, in his mind, he's like, guys, like

856
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: he said, just just in the same way he said,

857
00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: you've got to wrap this up. You've got to get

858
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 3: this over with. He's like, what are you doing, you know,

859
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: bombing a building full of civilians and then broadcasting that,

860
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 3: Like that's not going to play well. It's not a

861
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 3: moral argument like you shouldn't do that. It's an argument

862
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 3: that this is not going to be effective in your mission,

863
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: of which I'm aligned with, which I'm aliged.

864
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 4: And again that's why I think it's interesting that like

865
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 4: again this is the father in law of Jared Kushner,

866
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 4: Jared Kushner's, and people Trump gives him credit actually in

867
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 4: fact for heading up Middle East Israel policy basically under

868
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 4: Trump's watch. And what they did by moving the embassy

869
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 4: and uh just completely allying the United States with you know,

870
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: the goals of the net Yahoo administration essentially, not that

871
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 4: you know that's new for the United States foreign policy,

872
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: but it was the sort of there was a an

873
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 4: enthusiasm for that alliance that I think was very specific

874
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 4: to the Trump administration. So that's why I find you know,

875
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: potentially Donald Trump coming into office again likely likely based

876
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 4: on reporting, bringing Jared Kushner back into the administration. That's

877
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 4: I think genuinely an interesting contrast.

878
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 3: And even casual observers at the time warned that Kushner's

879
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 3: approach to the Abraham Accords of pretending that the Palestine

880
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 3: question didn't exist and just trying to reach normalization with

881
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: Saudi and the UAE and Israel and others was not

882
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: going to work because Palestinians do exist, and it was

883
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 3: going to lead to some type of an explosion.

884
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: That was the warning.

885
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: But you can't completely blame the Trump administration for that,

886
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 3: because the Biden administration came in January twenty twenty one

887
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: and had every opportunity to say, whoever let this kid

888
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 3: run Middle East policy for the United States was an idiot,

889
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 3: and we're not going to continue following that course. Instead,

890
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 3: they basically followed the Kushner policy going forward. They did

891
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: not re enter the deal, They discarded the Obama approach

892
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 3: to the region and adopted the Trump approach, and we

893
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 3: wound up with this let's do his two states. Yeah,

894
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 3: so he was asked about potential solutions. I thought this

895
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 3: This was also kind of a bit insightful from Trump

896
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 3: in an interesting way. Do you think an outcome of

897
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: that war between Israel and Hamas should be a two

898
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: state solution between Israelis and Palestinians? Trump says, most people

899
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: thought it was going to be a two state solution.

900
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: I'm not sure a two state solution anymore is going

901
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: to work. Everybody was talking about two states. Even when

902
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: I was there, I was saying, what do you like here?

903
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 3: Do you like two states?

904
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: Now?

905
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: People are going back to it depends where you are

906
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 3: every day. It changes now if Israel's making and here's

907
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 3: the insightful part and if Israel's making progress, yes, they

908
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 3: don't want two states, they want everything right, And if

909
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 3: Israel's not making progresses he goes on, sometimes they talk

910
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: about two state solution. Two state solutions seem to be

911
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 3: the idea that people liked most, the policy or the

912
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: idea that people liked above this.

913
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 4: Is like really the benefit of Donald Trump. In some

914
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 4: cases he comes in with no like rhetorical allegiance to

915
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 4: either side of the debate, and it's just like perceptive

916
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 4: in the sneakiest ways sometimes because he has this like

917
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 4: weird business mindset and he hasn't been reading scripts from

918
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: full of talking points from like the RNC for twenty years,

919
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 4: so he just is like free wheeling, and sometimes it

920
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 4: has disastrous consequences. Other times it's weirdly perceptive.

921
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, when things are going well for Israel, as Trump observes,

922
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,959
Speaker 1: they just want everything. Why would they agree to two states.

923
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 3: It's only when they're on their heels that they say, okay,

924
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: maybe we'll maybe we'll agree to that.

925
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 4: And the cushions of the world. Again, this is interesting

926
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 4: because I'm saying this as somebody broadly on the right.

927
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 4: It's frustrating any criticism of Israel. You are lumped into

928
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: this category as like pro hamas pro anti Semitism or

929
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 4: enabling anti Semitism. This is Donald Trump openly criticizing Israel

930
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 4: when nobody forced him to. This interview was not particularly

931
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 4: tough on him on that question, like it pushed him.

932
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 4: It was fair, but it wasn't like hostile. It wasn't

933
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 4: saying like, you need to criticize Israel right now, or

934
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 4: you will, you know, sacrifice all of your credibility. It

935
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 4: wasn't doing that. He just went there, and I actually

936
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: think that's really.

937
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: Interesting and real quickly, and then we can move on

938
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: to to Weed.

939
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: I did want to ask you about maybe you have

940
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 3: some insight into this the myth of pristone questions. So

941
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 3: he gets asked, do you think women should be able

942
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: to get the abortion pill myf of pristone? And he says, well,

943
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,720
Speaker 3: I have an opinion on that, but I'm not going

944
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: to explain. I'm not going to say it yet, but

945
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 3: I have pretty strong views on that, and I'll be

946
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 3: releasing it probably over the next week. So this is

947
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 3: the abortion pill, which the Supreme Court has said is legal.

948
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: Do you have any insight what is he actually going

949
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 3: to put something out in a week.

950
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: Is he just making that up?

951
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 3: Where is there any speculation about where he lands on this,

952
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: because this is a huge issue because if you're in

953
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 3: a red state that has banned abortion, but you can

954
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: still get access to this, it's a game changer.

955
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 4: It's why abortions have increased post obs. There's this mass

956
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 4: movement towards Smith of Perstone, and it now accounts for

957
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 4: a massive.

958
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: Proportion learning about it now do yeah.

959
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I haven't heard any rumblings that

960
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 4: he's planning to make an announcement on this, which could

961
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 4: That doesn't mean he's not planning to make an announcement

962
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 4: on it. Frankly, if I had to guess where he

963
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 4: stands on this personally, I actually still think that could

964
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 4: diverge from whatever his policy is because this interview is

965
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 4: similarly like he wouldn't give an answer on what he

966
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 4: would definitively do about military aid, conditioning military aid to Israel.

967
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 4: He also would not give an answer about what he

968
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 4: would do with abortion, and he kept saying it's up

969
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 4: to the states, it's up to the states. You're hypothetical.

970
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,479
Speaker 4: I won't answer because it's so impossible. You're never gonna

971
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 4: have sixty votes in the Senate, So I can't answer

972
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 4: your question about whether I would sign a fifteen week ban,

973
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. On this. I think it's possible

974
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 4: he announces a policy really similar to what he announced

975
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 4: with abortion in general, that he's just supportive of leaving

976
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 4: it up to the states. Basically that upset a lot

977
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 4: of people in the anti abortion movement. But I don't

978
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 4: know whether that reflects what he's saying when he says

979
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 4: he has a very strong opinion on it, because his

980
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 4: very strong opinion could potentially not be reflected by whatever

981
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 4: policy he announces. I think he's, you know, privately, you

982
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 4: hear that he's kind of icked out by anti abortion people,

983
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 4: that he feels like they're weird religious extremists, and you know,

984
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 4: is personally not hardcore anti abortion. So I would if

985
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 4: I had a guess, I would say he's probably prof

986
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 4: for pristone personally, But whether that is whatever policy he

987
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 4: announces is a completely different question.

988
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 3: Well, the DEA is making big moves on marijuana. So

989
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: back in the election year twenty twenty two, if you remember,

990
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 3: the Biden administration did two things during the mid terms.

991
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 3: At once they pardoned every non violent weed defender. But

992
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 3: the more significant thing they did at that time was

993
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: they asked the confederal bureaucracy to study whether or not

994
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: marijuana belonged.

995
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: In Schedule one.

996
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: Now, Schedule one is the most restrictive category for an

997
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 3: illegal drug. It means it has zero medical benefit and

998
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 3: a high potential for abuse. You could say that the

999
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: stronger weed lately has a significant potential for abuse, but

1000
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: the zero medical benefit has always been completely absurd. But

1001
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: it was clear at that moment that he was teeing

1002
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: up a twenty twenty four move. Now, HHS and the

1003
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 3: FDA both signed off on reclassifying marijuana, moving it out

1004
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 3: of Schedule one. The DEA has been dragging its feet,

1005
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 3: as you can as you can imagine the DEA does.

1006
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 3: But yesterday the Associated Press reported, and we can put

1007
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 3: this up, that the DA finally is getting in line

1008
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: and recommending back to the White House that they do

1009
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 3: what everybody else said they ought to do, which is

1010
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 3: reschedule marijuana from Schedule one to Schedule three.

1011
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: Now, Schedule three says it has some medical value, So

1012
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: there's been some reporting that this would help with.

1013
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: Tax liabilities for marijuana firms, cannabis company. You know, it's

1014
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 3: because so basically one of the but that's not necessarily

1015
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 3: the case.

1016
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: Because Schedule three is still quite restrictive.

1017
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: Because right now, if you are marijuana business, you basically

1018
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 3: have it's basically impossible to write off a lot of

1019
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 3: your costs, which means you have exorbitant tax bill at

1020
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 3: the end because you don't pay taxes on your profits

1021
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 3: like a normal business. You pay taxes on all of

1022
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 3: your revenue because you can't write off your costs because

1023
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: your costs are illegal under federal law. At the same time,

1024
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 3: you don't have access to banking, which puts people at

1025
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: serious risks because they're moving cash around, you know, gigantic

1026
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 3: you know, trucks going back and forth filled with cash

1027
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 3: from homes to businesses. And so this is much less

1028
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 3: than what a lot of advocates would want, you know,

1029
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 3: have have wanted, but it will it will help on sentencing,

1030
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: you know, you know, with mandatory minimums. It also helps

1031
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 3: importantly with research. Right now, if you want to research marijuana,

1032
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 3: which so many people in the medical field want to

1033
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 3: do because there are significant medical benefits like getting access.

1034
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: It's it's hilarious.

1035
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 3: Like if you want to get gummies or weed, you

1036
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 3: walk down the street and you buy them. If you

1037
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: want to do research on cannabis at the university setting,

1038
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 3: it's impossible, right right, Like there are like a handful

1039
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: of studies that have gone through like ten years of

1040
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 3: like fighting with the DA.

1041
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 4: So the research just like getting dime bags on the corner.

1042
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 3: They just research something else because they can't then get

1043
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 3: they can't get the university to approve the studies, and

1044
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 3: so they just go study something else. So now at

1045
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 3: least this will lead to an explosion of actual you

1046
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 3: know research, you know into in the US because around

1047
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 3: the world people are able to study it.

1048
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: So so so that'll help.

1049
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: This is still months away though, Yeah, it's got to

1050
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 3: go to the Office of Managing Budget. There's a comment period,

1051
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 3: and you know, this could drag out till after the

1052
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: after the election. Sager is not here to complain, but

1053
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 3: to you know, Sager, can you know, take pride in

1054
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 3: the fact that not much it's going to.

1055
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: Change it in the near term.

1056
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 4: I was going to say, and you know, sccer's arguments

1057
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 4: are serious, and I think a lot of our viewers,

1058
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 4: probably as much as we make fun of him. I

1059
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 4: think a lot of our viewers probably know this, but

1060
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,399
Speaker 4: right if you duck to what you're right, you can

1061
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 4: see this Ryan Grimm book, This is Your Country Drugs,

1062
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 4: The Secret History of Getting High in America. If ever

1063
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 4: there were an expert on the history of getting high

1064
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 4: in America by This is Your Country on Drugs by

1065
00:56:58,160 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 4: Ryan Grimm, for the expert take it is.

1066
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: Are you amazing like that? That book came out in

1067
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine and you could sort of if

1068
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 3: you squinted, see the direction that things were going in

1069
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 3: the final chapter.

1070
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: But to get to this place in my lifetime is

1071
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: kind of interesting.

1072
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:15,919
Speaker 4: That's what I was actually going to ask you about,

1073
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 4: because I think that's when we were talking about this

1074
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:20,959
Speaker 4: a little bit yesterday. This is a really big deal.

1075
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: I used to work. I was actually a weed lobbyist, right,

1076
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: that's right, two thousand and four.

1077
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: I worked for the Marijuana Policy Project on state level lobbying.

1078
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 4: High powered, very funny. This is funny is the weed

1079
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 4: lobbyists now actually are high powered. It's like John Bayner, yes,

1080
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 4: value of John Bayner, right, but back then, and that's

1081
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,919
Speaker 4: what's interesting about the schedule classifications that right now while

1082
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 4: this O and B process goes on, it's still classified

1083
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 4: Schedule one alongside like heroin LSD, And yet you have

1084
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 4: people like John Bayner advocating for what was he doing,

1085
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 4: Like was it cannabis? Yeah, So the other thing I

1086
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 4: was interested in here is if it's a Schedule three drug,

1087
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 4: you're still still a significant DEA regulations. But that means

1088
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 4: that fifteen thousand cannabis dispensaries in the US that exist

1089
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 4: right now would have to register with the DEA. I'm

1090
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 4: reading from the Associated Press report report here. That means

1091
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 4: they have to go along with these like fairly strict

1092
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 4: reporting requirements, and.

1093
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: I think what they're not going to do well.

1094
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 4: It sounds like the DEA is not even in a

1095
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 4: position to handle those reporting requirements. So, in a sense,

1096
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 4: if this plays out, even in the direction that's good

1097
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 4: for some of these dispensaries, is up in the air

1098
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 4: financially because now they have this massive burden of reporting

1099
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 4: the DEA in ways that they weren't before.

1100
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 3: It'll at least, you know, reduce the incentive for the

1101
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: DEA I think, to break down the doors of cannabis dispensaries.

1102
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 3: But you know, they've largely moved away from that and

1103
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 3: left it. They've basically started leaving it up to localities.

1104
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 3: In the beginning days, like in the Bush administration, when

1105
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 3: medical cannabis facilities first started opening, you'd have the DEA

1106
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 3: in standoff with like local police who were supportive of

1107
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 3: the dispensaries. They've they've somewhat moved away from that. We

1108
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 3: have not yet gotten to a rational system, but it would,

1109
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 3: you know. But it now gives Congress, you know, more

1110
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 3: ability to rationalize I think the system because the DA

1111
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 3: is sort of given a little bit of permission. Chuck

1112
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 3: Schumer is trying to put something related to cannabis into

1113
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 3: the FAA's trying to put He's trying to put weed

1114
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 3: banking into.

1115
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: The FAA reauthorization.

1116
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: He keeps trying to do it because you know that

1117
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 3: by you know, Schumer in particular sees you know, weed

1118
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: and student debt as you know, key ways to try

1119
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 3: to uh, you know, win the support of young people

1120
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 3: in particular.

1121
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 4: So, uh yeah, And this is complete un evenness culturally

1122
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 4: in terms of policy. That's really fascinating here. And for

1123
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 4: the other side of this argument, because I'm so kind

1124
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 4: of ambivalent, I do commend people to go watch some

1125
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 4: of Sager's model on this topic, because I don't think

1126
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 4: Grant you mentioned this earlier. There is a level of

1127
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 4: potency that increased rapidly just in the last several decades.

1128
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 4: That's totally relevant to what's happening on underdeveloped brains when

1129
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 4: they're smoking weed like that. This is some serious research

1130
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 4: in that space that's paying attention to.

1131
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 3: If you're a parent, Yeah, and substance abuse is a

1132
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 3: problem no matter what the substance. The question for me

1133
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: has always been should it be criminalized?

1134
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: You know? Is the answer to lock people up?

1135
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1136
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: And I don't. I don't think so. But it doesn't

1137
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: mean we're ever going to get to a rational place either.

1138
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 4: Breaking news from Capitol Hill, Mike Johnson continues to be

1139
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 4: a real person. Ryan and I have followed these developments

1140
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 4: for weeks now. Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House sounds

1141
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 4: completely made up, and yet he continues to be the

1142
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 4: Republican Speaker of the House does exist.

1143
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: He's real.

1144
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 4: But the real takeaway from what's happening on Capitol Hill

1145
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 4: right now is that Democrats made a decision yesterday to

1146
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 4: ally themselves formally with Mike Johnson in his battle against

1147
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 4: House Republicans. So Marjorie Taylor Green's motion to vacate and

1148
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:11,959
Speaker 4: we can put this first element up on the screen.

1149
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 4: This is a tweet from Jake Sherman over at punch

1150
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 4: Bowl that House Democratic leadership has said they will vote

1151
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,959
Speaker 4: to table that Marjorie Taylor Green motion to vacate if

1152
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 4: she forces a vote on it, which is called privileging

1153
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 4: the motions. So she filed the motion weeks ago. Thomas

1154
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 4: Massey signed onto it after the Ukraine Party vote for

1155
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 4: an AID vote that we talked about last week, and Thomas,

1156
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 4: speaking of Thomas Massey, we can put the next element

1157
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 4: up on the screen. He tweeted yesterday at Representative Jeffreys

1158
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 4: and Speaker Johnson. Not sure who's in charge, so asking

1159
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 4: both of you, are you still working together to eliminate

1160
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 4: the motion of vakate so you can share power forever.

1161
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 4: This was in response to a Mike Johnson sweet on

1162
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 4: April eighteenth talking about how many people to borrow a

1163
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 4: phrase from Trump. Many people have been encouraging him to

1164
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 4: endorse a new rule to raise the threshold on the

1165
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 4: motion to vacate. Super quick primer on the motion to vacate.

1166
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 4: It sounds like a technical parliamentary procedure term. What it

1167
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 4: actually means is that it existed in Congress until Nancy

1168
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 4: Pelosi took it away after watching what happened to John Bayner.

1169
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 4: We somehow managed not to talk about John Bayner twice

1170
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 4: in this show in twenty twenty four. But John Bayner

1171
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 4: was He had a motion of vakate filed against him

1172
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 4: by Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan back in the day.

1173
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 4: They never ended up privileging it. They forced Bayner to resign.

1174
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 4: Nancy Pelosi saw that and changed the rule that had

1175
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 4: existed for all of Congress's history basically and said, this

1176
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 4: is not happening to me. I'm not going to have

1177
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 4: challenges to my power just because one of my members

1178
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 4: wants to file and privilege this motion to vacate. So

1179
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 4: what Hakim Jeffries, Nancy Pelosi's successor, is doing right now

1180
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 4: is saying, we're saving Mike Johnson's ass because if Marjor

1181
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 4: Taylor Green forces this motion to vacate, it privileges it

1182
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 4: and gets a vote and I'm out of here, or

1183
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 4: that Johnson is out of here, we'd rather have Mike

1184
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 4: Johnson in power, and that's saving Republicans from a cycle

1185
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 4: of chaos in the middle of an election year. Because

1186
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 4: I'm curious for your perspective on this. Democrats realize that

1187
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 4: they can get a lot of their priorities over the

1188
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 4: hurdle of Republican House leadership, Republican majority in the House,

1189
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 4: because they have the Senate and the presidency. They feel

1190
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 4: like they can get probably a lot of earmarking porks

1191
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 4: that type stuff out of funding bills FAA is coming up,

1192
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 4: farm bills coming up in the future by aligning themselves

1193
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 4: with Mike Johnson.

1194
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 3: Now, and I think you have to presume that there

1195
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 3: was some type of an arrangement. It came to a

1196
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 3: passage of you they avoided a government shutdown, they funded

1197
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 3: the wars and Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan, and Democrats provided a

1198
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 3: lot of muscle for that, but you know, Speaker Johnson

1199
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 3: had to go along and put it on the floor.

1200
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 3: And so you can imagine that this, uh, this commitment

1201
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 3: from Hakeem Jeffers is not coming out of nowhere, that

1202
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: it comes out of those those talks, and that that collaboration,

1203
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 3: that cooperation from before. You know, it's I think that

1204
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 3: Democrats think, Okay, yeah, chaos is fun, Like it's nice

1205
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 3: when you know Republicans are shooting at each other and

1206
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 3: if you could have them, you know, voting for Speaker

1207
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 3: again for a week or two, it makes them, it

1208
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 3: makes them look like losers. But yeah, I think to

1209
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 3: your point, their priority was getting the getting the wars funded.

1210
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 3: So they'd rather have that than a than a marginal

1211
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 3: and a political advantage. And you know they still get

1212
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 3: plenty of infighting, Like there's lots of Republican finger pointing speak.

1213
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: They can have the best of all worlds.

1214
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 4: Speaking of books written by Ryan Grimm. You can all

1215
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 4: see the squad behind you.

1216
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: And we're backing them up back there.

1217
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 4: The thing that I wanted to ask you was, actually,

1218
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 4: if this is demoralizing to the squad and to members

1219
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 4: of sort of justice Dems when they see this happening,

1220
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 4: because I bet to a lot of their voters you

1221
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 4: see this happening, it is demoralizing and it's infuriating.

1222
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 3: I mean, it might be demoralizing to their to their base,

1223
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 3: but probably not to them personally.

1224
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: Because they've been because they've been locked up.

1225
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: With Jeffries, Like they voted for Jeffries every every step

1226
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 3: of the way. They didn't mount anybody to challenge Jeffreys

1227
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 3: and they they you know, they did not like that

1228
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 3: is funding for the war in Israel moved through, but

1229
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 3: they all were supportive of the money for the war

1230
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 3: in Ukraine for the most part. So uh, I don't

1231
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 3: see a whole lot of daylight between them and Jeffreys

1232
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 3: on on these on these questions. You know, it deprives

1233
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 3: you know, now the question would be, would Republicans bail

1234
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: out a Jeffries speakership in the future, No, you don't

1235
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,919
Speaker 3: think so, No, let them let them.

1236
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 4: Go down, because I can just imagine Republican voters after

1237
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 4: that happened in town halls be like Tea Party all

1238
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 4: over again. And Republicans are just I think, kind of

1239
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 4: keyed into getting the different parliamentary machinations probably post Tea

1240
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 4: Party because this was such a big deal with Bayer,

1241
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 4: and I just see like, actually less of that on

1242
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 4: the left that they pay really close attention to the

1243
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 4: different maneuvers that leadership uses to kind of screw over populists.

1244
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 4: But on the right that's a pretty mainstream, like hobby

1245
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 4: horse of people in the conservative movement is following what's

1246
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 4: happening in the sort of like meat grinder on Capitol Hills.

1247
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 4: So I think people would be pretty furious about that,

1248
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 4: you know, the Mike Johns is just I don't think

1249
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 4: there would be some people who would you know, you

1250
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 4: could maybe get fifteen to twenty. So it kind of

1251
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 4: depends on how big the majority is. There's maybe a

1252
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 4: way to make the math work, but I don't know.

1253
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 4: I think that's it would be unlikely.

1254
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 3: What it means is today is made first Happy may Day,

1255
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 3: and you're not going to have any kind of House

1256
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:01,919
Speaker 3: speaker drama between now and November until after the election, right.

1257
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 4: Which, again, if I'm a Democratic voter, I'm watching this

1258
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 4: and say saying, what the hell are you doing? Like

1259
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 4: let them do this, like let them fight. It's a

1260
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 4: middle of an election year. Why are you going out

1261
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 4: of your way to save Mike Johnson who just said,

1262
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 4: for example, we have a biblical mandate Johnson to step

1263
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 4: in with Israel.

1264
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 3: Tell me if I'm still correct on this. Johnson was

1265
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 3: known as a terrible fundraiser. Is he still a bad fundraiser?

1266
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 3: Has he stepped his game up? Because if not, like

1267
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:37,959
Speaker 3: one of the unspoken reasons or unspoken publicly reasons that

1268
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 3: Democrats were so happy to see Kevin McCarthy go is

1269
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 3: that he was a voracious fundraiser tends to hundreds of

1270
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 3: millions of dollars for Republican candidates, and taking that chess

1271
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 3: piece off the board meant that that was tens of

1272
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 3: millions of dollars that might not get raised and then

1273
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 3: spent against Democratic candidates. You know, the week after he

1274
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 3: was ousted, they had to cancel some gigantic fundraiser in Texas.

1275
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 3: And you would think that material interests alone would get

1276
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 3: these donors to write these checks to the political party

1277
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 3: that is benefiting their material interests.

1278
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: But they also need to be sweet talked. They want

1279
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: that rubber chicken.

1280
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 3: They want the speeches, they want the glad handing, they

1281
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 3: want they want the photo. They want their kid to

1282
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 3: get the internship and the chance to like whisper in

1283
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 3: the ear of the speaker. And without that, you know

1284
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 3: they're going to give less money. So if it's still

1285
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 3: the case that Johnson is a lousy fundraiser, Keem Jefferies

1286
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 3: is probably thinking let him continue as speaker.

1287
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 4: He's not Kevin McCarthy. That's basically what I've heard in

1288
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 4: those circles. He may have he could step his game up,

1289
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 4: that's still not going to make him Kevin McCarthy. And

1290
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 4: you know, there's mixed donor opinions on some of these

1291
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,679
Speaker 4: uniparty priorities, especially in the right now, Ukraine, et cetera.

1292
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 3: I think the donors don't are a little Some of

1293
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,679
Speaker 3: these rich Republicans are probably put off by his true believer.

1294
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: Well he's also a true believer.

1295
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,759
Speaker 4: And I mean religious, yeah, right.

1296
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: Whereas some of the rich problems. Yeah, they go to

1297
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 1: church and they talk about it, but they're like, oh,

1298
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: this guy he really means this stuff.

1299
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 4: We Donald Trump himself was a Republican donor, and he's

1300
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,919
Speaker 4: not going to be like persuaded by the dispensationalist biblical

1301
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 4: mandate philosophy about supporting.

1302
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 3: Theoretical arguments about how church the separation of church and

1303
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 3: state is a myth.

1304
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 4: People are probably aicked up by Mike Johnson, yeah, in

1305
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 4: that respect, but who knows how. I mean, he can

1306
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:35,759
Speaker 4: be selling himself in a number of different ways behind

1307
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,719
Speaker 4: closed doors. But you know, there's still there's still gonna

1308
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 4: be plenty of money that lobbyists have to throw around

1309
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 4: in the defense industry and sector. So maybe that'll help

1310
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 4: him because he got the bill over the line that

1311
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 4: said with sort of a lot of Republican voters are

1312
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 4: sort of not voters donors, mainstream Republican donors. They're not

1313
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 4: going to be happy about the border being left out

1314
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 4: of that bill.

1315
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: So too.

1316
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 3: But speaking of religious that's right. The author of the

1317
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 3: new book Pagan America.

1318
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 4: Yes, he means it in a different way than you do, right, Ryan,

1319
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 4: he's Pagan America, and he thinks we did it mentioned

1320
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 4: accomplish the banner up.

1321
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: Yet America has fallen.

1322
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. We'll be joined right after this by my college

1323
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 4: get the Federalist, Daniel Davidson, whose new book Pagan America

1324
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 4: is out right now stick around all right. We're joined

1325
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 4: now by John Daniel Davidson. He's my colleague at The Federalist,

1326
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 4: where he's a senior editor, but for the purposes of

1327
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 4: this conversation, he's also the author of a new book,

1328
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 4: Pagan America. John, Welcome to the show.

1329
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 8: Thanks for having me.

1330
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 4: Of course, now, a lot of our viewers, and actually

1331
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 4: a lot of the country is frankly not Christian, not

1332
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 4: practicing Christian in the way that you write about in

1333
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 4: this book and definitely probably looks at this and says,

1334
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 4: what does pagan America mean? And I'm not even just

1335
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 4: talking about people on the left, What do you mean

1336
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 4: by pagan America? And what does that mean for people

1337
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 4: who aren't right now going to church every Sunday? And honestly,

1338
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 4: would hear your description of paganism that you're going to

1339
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 4: give and say, okay, so it means we've separated a

1340
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 4: church and state.

1341
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 9: Good, yeah, right, Okay, So pagan America is an argument

1342
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 9: that there's really only one alternative to Christianity, and it's

1343
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 9: not secularism. Its pit's paganism, right, And I don't mean

1344
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 9: that in a post Christian era that we're in, as

1345
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 9: you say, you know, many people in this country, a

1346
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 9: growing number of people are not practicing Christians, and a

1347
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 9: growing number don't even identify as Christians. I think in

1348
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 9: about thirty twenty or thirty years, we'll have Christianity as

1349
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,320
Speaker 9: a self identified group as a minority in this country

1350
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 9: for the first time ever.

1351
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 4: Right, they might hear post Christian America thing, I think,

1352
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 4: and Ryan, you probably hear that and you think, okay, I.

1353
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 9: Think, okay, post Christian America is fine. Part of the

1354
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 9: argument of the book is that America as we know

1355
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:53,799
Speaker 9: it and understand it is only possible with a Christian people,

1356
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 9: in other words, a people who accept basic normative claims

1357
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 9: of Christian doctrine, chief among them the doctrine of imago

1358
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 9: day that each person is created in the image and

1359
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 9: likeness of God and therefore has inherent dignity. From whence

1360
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 9: we get rights, freedom of speech, religion, consent of the governed.

1361
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 9: All of the things that we associate with our American

1362
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 9: system of government and our American way of life are

1363
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 9: products of Christian civilization. They can't exist on their own

1364
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 9: outside of that context. Outside of that context, they eventually

1365
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 9: devolve into a form of post Christian neopaganism. And that's

1366
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 9: the era that we're emerging into today. As we shed

1367
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 9: our Christian civilization, we're also going to shed those things

1368
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 9: that we associate with our American way of life that

1369
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 9: I just enumerated, And the reason is because there's no

1370
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 9: basis for them outside of a Christian moral cosmology that

1371
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 9: posits what human beings are and what their relationship to

1372
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 9: God is, and what the relationship to one another should be.

1373
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: So I pride myself in reading all the books.

1374
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 3: Before we interview the author, and I just did not

1375
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 3: have time to that's fine, to get to this one,

1376
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 3: So I apologize. So I'm coming in totally kind of blank.

1377
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 3: But why is that the case? Why can't just appreciation

1378
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 3: for civic virtue and love of country and just general

1379
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 3: morality like be enough to stitch together of people.

1380
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 9: Well, general morality has to be based on something a

1381
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 9: vision of the world or a vision of what human

1382
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 9: beings are.

1383
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 8: Right.

1384
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 9: So pagan morality, and this holds true across vast expanses

1385
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 9: of time in geography and cultures, is that if you

1386
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 9: are not part of my group, then it's my moral

1387
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 9: duty to take what you have or subjugate you for

1388
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 9: the benefit of me and my people.

1389
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: Right.

1390
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 9: And that's what we see over and over again throughout history,

1391
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 9: the history of pagan peoples and cultures.

1392
01:13:57,720 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: Right.

1393
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 3: So let me ask you about so in a Christian

1394
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 3: nation for a couple hundred years, we have launched more

1395
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 3: wars than any other nation maybe in history. Like in

1396
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 3: the two hundred plus years that we've been a country,

1397
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 3: We've done some subjugating, We've done some subjugating. There have

1398
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 3: been only a few years out of all of those years,

1399
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 3: even during our isolation quote unquote isolations period while we're

1400
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 3: enacting a genocide, that we were not at war with

1401
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 3: other people in subjugating them. So what Either it's not

1402
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 3: true that Christianity allows us in a meaningful way to

1403
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 3: see others as as equals and then and treat them

1404
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 3: as we would like to be treated, or we are

1405
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 3: just overriding that as an impulse, like when when is

1406
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 3: this Christianity going to kick in?

1407
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,799
Speaker 8: Well, I wouldn't miss I want to be careful.

1408
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 9: We don't mistake an ideal for you know, the history

1409
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 9: is contingent and and and we're never going to attain

1410
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 9: the ideal of like human equality right or or a

1411
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 9: perfect realization of Christian moral ideals. The United States didn't

1412
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 9: do it, European civilization didn't do it. I don't think

1413
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 9: anyone's ever going to get it right. But that doesn't

1414
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:17,120
Speaker 9: negate the fundamental sort of philosophical and moral claims of Christianity.

1415
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 8: Right.

1416
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:22,479
Speaker 9: Christianity, as opposed to many other moral and religious systems,

1417
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 9: does claim in equality between people, and that's that's where

1418
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 9: we get things like human rights.

1419
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 8: The basis for human rights and human dignity.

1420
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 4: So why can't you take it out in a post

1421
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 4: Christian America? Why can't you say, we like the ideas

1422
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 4: that came from Gold rules Gold, we're taking the Christ

1423
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 4: out of it and like we just.

1424
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:46,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, christless Christianity in other words, or a or a

1425
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 9: a secular humanism. Right, this is the argument you know

1426
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 9: that the Stephen Pinker or Richard Dawkins would make.

1427
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:55,879
Speaker 8: Right. You know, they want the culture without the cults.

1428
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 9: But you can't have the culture without the cults because

1429
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 9: the culture relies on the religion, and the religious claims

1430
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 9: as the source of its vitality, the source of its coherence. Right,

1431
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 9: Why should a people who are post Christian retain Christian

1432
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 9: moral virtues?

1433
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 7: Right?

1434
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 9: Why should I think that all men are created equal

1435
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 9: when clearly in many ways people are not equal. We

1436
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 9: see inequality all around us. And and why shouldn't we

1437
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 9: adopt a pagan morality that says, you know, any question?

1438
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 9: And this is you know, the ancient Aristotle said this.

1439
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 9: You know, the ancient pagans they understood inequality means that

1440
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 9: some people are naturally slaves and some people are naturally rulers.

1441
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 8: And and if.

1442
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 9: You're poor, that fate has decided that you should be poor,

1443
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:50,759
Speaker 9: and that's your lot. Christianity, you know, brought a moral

1444
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 9: revolution to this this pagan morality and this pagan cosmology

1445
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 9: and positive a radically new way of understanding the world

1446
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 9: and our relations, and it launched a radical shift in

1447
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 9: human civilizations that had never before been seen. And so

1448
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 9: America is one expression of that, right, And I mean,

1449
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 9: we can have different interpretations of American history. European civilization

1450
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 9: is of course where we came from. But we're entering,

1451
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 9: and this is what the book argues, We're entering this

1452
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 9: new of unprecedented era, a post Christian era. And my

1453
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 9: argument is we should not expect the Christian cosmology, the

1454
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 9: Christian moral virtues that organized the West for all these centuries,

1455
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 9: to remain intact, cut off from the source of their vitality, right,

1456
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,760
Speaker 9: and we should expect something new. And the new thing

1457
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 9: we should expect is a resurgence of this pagan mentality,

1458
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 9: the pagan ethos, which is one that's based on force

1459
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 9: and coercion.

1460
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 3: But I guess I'm still trying to figure out, like

1461
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,680
Speaker 3: I was saying earlier, when does the Christianity kick in

1462
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 3: If the country's founded on these Christian ideals, and the

1463
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 3: country had Christians supporting slavery, Christians supporting the ethnic cleansing

1464
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 3: of Native Americans, Christians supporting the Spanish Marian War.

1465
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: The film.

1466
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 9: I think these are departures from from Christianity absolutely, Okay,

1467
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 9: let's I mean, these are departures from themes of Christianity.

1468
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 3: It's sort of like true communism has never been tried. Well,

1469
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,880
Speaker 3: people mock that idea when you when when actual communists will.

1470
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: Say, looks the communism is going to kick in.

1471
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, when's it communy? Like you say, well, the Soviet

1472
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 3: Union wasn't Cuba wasn't great. Well, then that wasn't real communism.

1473
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 3: But christ what I'm saying, Communism only had like.

1474
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: A two hundred year run. Christianity has had two thousand years.

1475
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:37,599
Speaker 8: Right, and and well, I mean, I don't know about you, but.

1476
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 9: I think that Christianity has produced a great civilization the

1477
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:44,560
Speaker 9: world's ever seen. Right, which one is that this is

1478
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 9: the one that we're sitting in right now, right, that's.

1479
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 4: Certainly a fairer, indjuster world than we've seen before.

1480
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 8: Well, that's what I'm saying.

1481
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 9: I mean, consider something like you know, the Roman Empire. Right,

1482
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 9: we have a tendency, I guess, since the Enlightenment to

1483
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 9: sort of romanticize the pagan past and in the Roman world,

1484
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 9: in the Greek world, those are slave societies. Most people

1485
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 9: in the Roman Empire were slaves that they didn't have

1486
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:11,839
Speaker 9: anything like rights. Right, if you were a Roman citizen

1487
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:14,600
Speaker 9: or a Roman aristocrat, you could do whatever you wanted to.

1488
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 8: People who were a lower in a lower station than you.

1489
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 9: You could rape them, you could murder them, you could

1490
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 9: you could discard them. And there wasn't seen so far

1491
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 9: from not being any kind of moral censure. It was

1492
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 9: it was like a mark of your rank that you

1493
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 9: were able to do this. This is true all through

1494
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 9: pagan societies, as I said, across time and cultures.

1495
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 3: Well, what about what about the Ottoman Empire? What about

1496
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 3: a lot of Chinese Empire, like throughout Chinese history, like

1497
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 3: you had, Yeah, people who had probably far more right

1498
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 3: slave societies too, I mean.

1499
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:51,919
Speaker 4: Abolished slavery later actually in most of the Ottoman areas

1500
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 4: than were in the West. And what's interesting about that,

1501
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 4: I think actually is a lot one of the grossest arguments,

1502
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 4: one of the grossest Christian arguments in favor of slavery

1503
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 4: the United States was these are not people. And what's

1504
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 4: interesting about that is because you know, as soon as

1505
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 4: you acknowledge these are human beings and you're a Christian,

1506
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 4: you have to treat them equally as human beings.

1507
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 8: Is the abolitionist argument.

1508
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 4: Right. Well, I was going to say, if you could talk,

1509
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 4: because that's in the book about how Christians get blamed

1510
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,799
Speaker 4: for perpetrating slavery. I think rightfully, there was a Christian

1511
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 4: argument that was made in favor of slavery. Christian argument

1512
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 4: that's made in front of awful imperialism and to your point,

1513
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,559
Speaker 4: ethnic cleansing. But if you go to if you talk

1514
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,639
Speaker 4: about what happened when Columbus arrived, it was bartol Madeli's

1515
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 4: Cassas that was saying this is awful from Christian perspective.

1516
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, so the debates over you know, what should yeah,

1517
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:44,360
Speaker 9: what should the proper disposition of Christian Europeans be toward

1518
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 9: the indigenous peoples of the Americas. That was a debate

1519
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 9: that was initiated by Catholic monks and scholars in Spain

1520
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 9: right who.

1521
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: Had debates had a view on it too.

1522
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 9: No, I'm saying from the European perspective of what should

1523
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 9: our disposition be towards these peoples in the New World.

1524
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

1525
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 9: And there was a there was a debate about their humanity,

1526
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 9: about what responsibilities the Catholic Church and the crown had

1527
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 9: to these people.

1528
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 8: It was the kind of debate, you know.

1529
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 9: The fact that they were having a debate about this

1530
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:17,680
Speaker 9: at all, I would say, is a product of Christian civilization.

1531
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 9: It's not the kind of thing that would have been

1532
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 9: debated in a pagan society at all.

1533
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 8: It would have been absolutely just these people.

1534
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 1: The debates in the Ottoman Empire, the debates in China,

1535
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,599
Speaker 1: debates in Japan, like there's everybody debates.

1536
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 2: Uh.

1537
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 9: I'm talking about a debate about whether or not these

1538
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 9: people should be just enslaved like animals and treated as such,

1539
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 9: or should their inherent dignity and humanity be recognized as

1540
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 9: children of God and our goal should be.

1541
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: To bring them breaks and the Romans all debated that.

1542
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 2: Uh.

1543
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 9: And on one side, I mean, Aristotle debated the He

1544
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 9: disagreed with the the practice how slavery was practiced, but

1545
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 9: he accepted at the very beginning of the politics he

1546
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 9: accepts the premise of natural slavery and natural rulers. His

1547
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 9: quibble is with the implementation of it, not not with

1548
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 9: the philosophical position that slavery is a natural state for

1549
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 9: some people. And this is this was common, but this

1550
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 9: was never accepted in Christianity in centuries and centuries of

1551
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 9: Catholic Europe. It was only in a modern context in

1552
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:29,560
Speaker 9: the nineteenth century when the Antebellum South posited this very Unchristian,

1553
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:33,680
Speaker 9: very pagan argument that slavery was natural, and it was

1554
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:37,639
Speaker 9: that aberration was a departure from how Christianity had been

1555
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 9: approaching this issue for centuries and centuries, not.

1556
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 4: Only in the New World in eleven hundred.

1557
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

1558
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 9: I mean the idea of human rights or of peace,

1559
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 9: of you know, that that war should should be confined

1560
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 9: and noncombatants should be protected. These were things that medieval

1561
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:56,920
Speaker 9: Catholic Europe came up with.

1562
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 1: That's true. But one reason for that is that these

1563
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:03,559
Speaker 1: Christians were doing more war than anybody else, and.

1564
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 9: Who than Genghis Khan.

1565
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,680
Speaker 3: Genghis Khan is the exception, more more war, uh than

1566
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 3: North American, South Americans, Chinese after more.

1567
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 8: War than the Aztecs.

1568
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 9: I don't know, more war than you know, I mean,

1569
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:21,919
Speaker 9: yea more war than the Egyptians commanche.

1570
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, look look around the world, like look

1571
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 1: at the biggest wars and the US and Europe.

1572
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 8: You're talking about modern one like World War one, world

1573
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 8: War two.

1574
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 3: But if you're talking about right, yeah, but if you

1575
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 3: look at how far they went.

1576
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,519
Speaker 9: Well, World War two was a pagan war, right, I

1577
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 9: mean Nazi Germany it was a post Christian society. Uh,

1578
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 9: Communist the Soviet Union was a post Christian society.

1579
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 8: These were these.

1580
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 4: Were Nietzsche's primary argument against Christianity.

1581
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,320
Speaker 1: It was that it was in some ways to Nazis

1582
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:50,679
Speaker 1: were pagan.

1583
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 8: I think Nazis, Yeah, Nazis were absolutely pagan.

1584
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 9: So Nazis were honest enough, like the Marquis de Right

1585
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 9: to say, if we're going to reject Christianity, then we

1586
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:04,920
Speaker 9: then the Christian morality has got to go. There's no

1587
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 9: basis to treat people as though they have inherent dignity

1588
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 9: and worth.

1589
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 8: Let's just liquidate all these people.

1590
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:12,720
Speaker 4: They tried to keep the trappings, they liked some of

1591
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,240
Speaker 4: the trappings of Christianity, but they took Christ quite literally,

1592
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 4: took Christ out of the Christianity.

1593
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:19,040
Speaker 1: And then they go after the Communists as godless.

1594
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 9: The Nazis where their god was sort of the pagan vulk. Right,

1595
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 9: this very clearly hearkening back to a pre Christian even

1596
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 9: in their aesthetics.

1597
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 5: Right.

1598
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 9: You know, there's no sense in which the Nazis were

1599
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:40,640
Speaker 9: a manifestation of Christian cosmology, right, this was this was

1600
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:43,719
Speaker 9: very clearly post Christian. And so when I say post Christian,

1601
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 9: and the reason I say the Nazis were at least

1602
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 9: honest about it is that if you get rid of

1603
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 9: the Christian claims, you eventually have to get rid of

1604
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 9: the Christian morality too.

1605
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,799
Speaker 8: So I mentioned the Marquis de Sade. During the Enlightenment

1606
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:57,200
Speaker 8: there was.

1607
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 9: This rejection, overt rejection of Christianity and specifically attacks against

1608
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 9: the Catholic Church. Marquis de Sade said, well, not only

1609
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 9: should we attack Christianity, but we should sweep away Christian

1610
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 9: morality as well. There's no reason why the strong should

1611
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 9: you know, scrape and bow before the week. That that's

1612
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 9: against nature. Right, That's yeah, that's what and that's what

1613
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 9: Marquis de said, That's what Nia said, That's what you

1614
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 9: know the Nazis said, right, And that is what Pagan

1615
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:29,280
Speaker 9: society's the principle in which Pagan societies had always been organized.

1616
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,519
Speaker 9: And what I'm saying is that Christian civilization was organized

1617
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 9: on different principles, never fully realized right, ideals that we

1618
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:40,759
Speaker 9: are always moving toward, never never quite going to achieve

1619
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 9: because this is this is the world, and we're falling.

1620
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:47,639
Speaker 9: You know, people are what they are, but the ideal

1621
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 9: and the claim, the ontological claim about what people are

1622
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:54,280
Speaker 9: was fundamentally different than what Pagan's positive.

1623
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,600
Speaker 1: No go ahead for this, But I don't know. I

1624
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:01,960
Speaker 1: think if if the US is held up as the

1625
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 1: example as the most Christian nation, that doesn't bode well for.

1626
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,799
Speaker 3: Linking nationalism and Christianity. We'll just based on our behavior

1627
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 3: over the last two hundred years.

1628
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 4: Somewhat interesting about this conversation is that all three of

1629
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 4: us share very similar foreign policy at the moment.

1630
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 8: So I don't know what your guys foreign policy is.

1631
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 4: He's a full but no, I mean, we pretty much

1632
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,559
Speaker 4: agree on what's happening right now. All that is to say,

1633
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 4: I actually think it was this was very helpful to

1634
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 4: have a conversation from the right.

1635
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: We do a lot on the left and we do.

1636
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 4: He's great to have one from the right.

1637
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 8: Well, I appreciate y'all having me on. You read the

1638
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 8: book and then we'll come back and talk about it.

1639
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 4: A fist fight. It'll be a to see who can

1640
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 4: try and Christian, well, if you leave me out of

1641
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:55,600
Speaker 4: it would be kind of Christian. Keep the women, the

1642
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:59,480
Speaker 4: vulnerable out of the fist fight, all right, John Daniel Davidson.

1643
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 8: Thanks for joining us, Thanks for having me.

1644
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 1: Appreciate it, all right.

1645
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:03,639
Speaker 4: Ryan, And that does it for us on today's edition

1646
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:06,919
Speaker 4: of Counterpoints. But it's worth reminding people that in addition

1647
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 4: to the mugs, a premium subscription will actually also cheers

1648
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 4: our mugs on. These mugs will also get you early

1649
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 4: access to the Friday show. So premium subscription, if you

1650
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:22,760
Speaker 4: go to Breakingpoints dot com, the episode we're taping for

1651
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 4: Friday will hit your inbox on Thursday. You can also

1652
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 4: get the mugs at Breaking Points dot Breakingpoints dot com.

1653
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:32,720
Speaker 4: And this is a hell of a Friday show, I'll

1654
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 4: say that much.

1655
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 3: And I mean we can tell you who's going to

1656
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 3: be on because one of the guests has been talking

1657
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 3: about it all week on his streaming program. We're gonna

1658
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 3: have Omar Padar and we're going to have a streamer

1659
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:46,840
Speaker 3: who is better known as I think mister Bonelli.

1660
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 4: Jokes, I'm too out of that rabbit hole like Eve

1661
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:54,879
Speaker 4: and Sager, been having fun with these.

1662
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:58,240
Speaker 3: These he goes, he goes, he goes by Destiny, Yes,

1663
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 3: and like why we had them on as an open

1664
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 3: question TBD.

1665
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll see how.

1666
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 4: But that's the point of the conversation.

1667
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 3: I think the best argument that you could make for

1668
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 3: it is that he makes a lot of the arguments

1669
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 3: that you see very frequently from the pro Israel It's

1670
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 3: a crowd, and he makes them very effectively, and so

1671
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 3: I think it's useful to see people kind of push

1672
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:27,560
Speaker 3: back against them and encounter them. I think if he

1673
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:31,240
Speaker 3: just started learning about this issue in the last six months.

1674
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 4: Which is true of a lot of people, and normally

1675
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 4: politics are worth talking about because that's again like by definition,

1676
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,559
Speaker 4: they're probably representative of a broad swath of the country

1677
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 4: who doesn't for a living think constantly about these issues

1678
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 4: and here every update in the news. So I think

1679
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 4: it's a contrast that's well worth developing and it'll be

1680
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 4: a really interesting conversation. So we're doing these every Friday now.

1681
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 4: We started with dun Lemon.

1682
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 1: Last another questionable decision.

1683
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 4: But we have a lot of really interesting ideas lined

1684
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 4: up for the future. So Breakingpoints dot Com for subscription.

1685
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 4: There you'll get the episode in your inbox Thursday night.

1686
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:09,799
Speaker 4: You can also get the wonderful mugs.

1687
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:12,839
Speaker 1: I took Don Lemon's advice. I broke out my lighter jacket.

1688
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:14,639
Speaker 4: I didn't even notice.

1689
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 3: I mean, I used to wear this deep into the fall.

1690
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 3: My wife was like, you can't wear that in the fall.

1691
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 1: In the winter, it's a good spring, but it's a

1692
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 1: spring now, so bringing it back.

1693
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 4: So subscribe for more of Ryan's fashion tips and to

1694
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 4: see what color jacket he wears on any given Wednesday.

1695
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 1: I see you guys Thursday evening if you subscribe, Friday

1696
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 1: morning if you don't.