WEBVTT - Ep 89: Kim Gordon

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe my regret is that I maybe stay too long

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<v Speaker 1>in playing in a band Exnic Youth.

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<v Speaker 2>Good evening, everyone, and welcome to episode eighty nine of

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast, which is going out a very strange time

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<v Speaker 2>in the history of the world. Maybe you're listening to

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<v Speaker 2>this in the future, maybe far in the future, and

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<v Speaker 2>everything's back to normal. I certainly hope that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>But right now we are in the middle of the

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<v Speaker 2>coronavirus pandemic. It's actually quite early days here in London.

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<v Speaker 2>We've probably been isolation self isolation for about five days.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I wish we'll think in saying that we're

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of it. But wherever you are, I

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<v Speaker 2>hope you're dealing with the weirdness of the situation, and

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<v Speaker 2>I hope you're keeping safe and busy and not going

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<v Speaker 2>crazy yet. This podcast is one that we recorded maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a month ago or something like that. I mean, coronavirus

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<v Speaker 2>was very much the talk of the day back then.

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<v Speaker 2>We recorded this the morning that South By Southwest decided

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<v Speaker 2>to cancel. That's where the conversation picks up. Obviously, since then,

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of the music industry, everything has canceled, all

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<v Speaker 2>festivals are on hold, for now. So yeah, it just

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<v Speaker 2>feels it feels strange to listen back to this time

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<v Speaker 2>capsule from a time not too long ago when we

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<v Speaker 2>were speculating what might or might not happen due to

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<v Speaker 2>this crisis. So I don't have any answers. Obviously, I

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<v Speaker 2>am extremely excited that we have Kim Gordon on the podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean, it doesn't get much bigger or better

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<v Speaker 2>than that for us. I mean, you know, ridiculous. I

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<v Speaker 2>was a bit nervous meet and Kim. She's insanely cool

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<v Speaker 2>and extremely smart, and we pick up in this conversation

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<v Speaker 2>we kind of it's a bit of a whistle stop

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<v Speaker 2>tour of loads of the different things that she has

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<v Speaker 2>done throughout her life, and it's everything essentially from visual arts.

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<v Speaker 2>She's recently been the week that I spoke to her,

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<v Speaker 2>she's been campaigning for Bernie Sanders in the US primaries

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<v Speaker 2>in California. She's done some acting, she's done some dance.

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<v Speaker 2>She's obviously changed the face of modern post punk with

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<v Speaker 2>Sonic Youth, and she's released a solo album last year

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<v Speaker 2>called No Home Record. She's written an autobiography. We touch

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<v Speaker 2>on all of these sorts of things I'm sure you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe all of them, maybe some of them.

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<v Speaker 2>I've put some links below this episode. The guy that

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<v Speaker 2>Kim talks about who was married to Jane Fonder, I

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<v Speaker 2>believe was Thomas Emma Hayden. And that's pretty much all

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<v Speaker 2>you need to know going into thank you for downloading

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<v Speaker 2>Stay Safe out there, and in terms of what you

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<v Speaker 2>can do to support this podcast and Loud and Quiet,

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<v Speaker 2>because I'll be totally honest with you, we have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea just how fucked we are right now, but we

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<v Speaker 2>are working on it and we're seeing a way to continue.

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<v Speaker 2>But we have created a donations button on our subscription

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<v Speaker 2>but right now, if there's just a nominal, small amount

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<v Speaker 2>as subscription, everyone's feeling it right now and we fully

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate that. So you know, we don't really want to

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<v Speaker 2>be asking for your money, but some people have been

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<v Speaker 2>in touch and said, can we bung you a few quid?

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<v Speaker 2>And you can do that now at Loud and Quiet

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<v Speaker 2>dot com. Forward slash subscribe put in any amount, It

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter what it is. Most importantly, though, just tell

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<v Speaker 2>a friend about this podcast. This is number eighty nine,

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<v Speaker 2>we're approaching one hundred. We've had some really great people

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<v Speaker 2>on and we just as many people here as possible.

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<v Speaker 2>So especially right now when people are twiddling their thumbs

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<v Speaker 2>a bit, just tell someone that you like this podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>if indeed you do, and hopefully you're like this episode myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuart Stubs talking to Kim Gordon. Thanks for doing this.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah you How was your flight in yesterday?

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<v Speaker 1>I was fine. I didn't know what to expect on

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<v Speaker 1>the air plane, like if everyone's going to be wearing

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<v Speaker 1>masks or how. It's great. It looks seem no, not really.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw like a couple mass in the airport, but

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<v Speaker 1>not not really.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels like this week here. I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>it's been like in the States, but here we've kind

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<v Speaker 2>of gone to a new level with it with the

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<v Speaker 2>whole Corona thing. Is it. What's it like in the

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<v Speaker 2>States right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think kind of it's getting rough because well,

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<v Speaker 1>for one thing, Trump is terrible, you know, like his

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<v Speaker 1>whole rollout of it. It's like he's always wants to

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<v Speaker 1>make everything about himself, right, you know, which isn't constructive

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<v Speaker 1>when there's a potential pandemic, global pandemic and so and

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<v Speaker 1>he lies pretty much everything that comes out of his

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<v Speaker 1>mouth is a lie, So you tend to want to

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<v Speaker 1>assume the opposite sure for whatever he says, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>this is you know, it's kind of like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I saw that minis that series Chernobyl, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of reminds me of it was very timely.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it reminds me of kind of the potential with

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<v Speaker 1>Trump because he just wants to make himself look good

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<v Speaker 1>all the time and the fact that actually there aren't

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<v Speaker 1>enough testing kits and things like that, or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's it's like he just really says things like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we've had a really good, smooth rollout, Like that's what

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<v Speaker 1>he is, like his message, she wants it to be.

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<v Speaker 1>And I understand he's trying to calm the markets, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think if he talked to you know, if he

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<v Speaker 1>if they had did a better job of preparing knowing

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<v Speaker 1>what was coming, you know, that would have been more

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<v Speaker 1>calming than.

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<v Speaker 2>So his kind of partline is everything's fine. That's that's

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<v Speaker 2>his approach to it, right, how about like on a

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<v Speaker 2>just on a street level in because you're in La, Right,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the general kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it's pretty you know, aside from the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that people are stocking up on food and and you

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<v Speaker 1>can't find hand sanitizer this this.

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<v Speaker 2>Week that's happened here. Yeah, sanitizer is like I know,

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<v Speaker 2>I noticed, I went to look.

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<v Speaker 1>I was curious. I went in a drug store last night,

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<v Speaker 1>the Super Drag and yeah, there was everything was gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Aside from that, it's doesn't seem I mean, south By

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<v Speaker 1>south West was canceled yesterday.

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<v Speaker 2>That's crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sort of curious what's going to happen with other festivals,

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<v Speaker 1>Like maybe I won't be touring the summer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it feels like we're kind of in this real

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<v Speaker 2>state of limbo now, doesn't it. With south By Southwest

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<v Speaker 2>canceling yesterday? It does feel like how long is this

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<v Speaker 2>going to go on? And does that is that going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a domino effect now? Especially for things happening

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<v Speaker 2>in the very near future. Are you, like, personally are

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<v Speaker 2>you are you worried? Are you particularly worried yourself? I

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<v Speaker 2>mean in terms of just the I'm worried.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, I mean, yeah, I mean I'm worried. But if

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not traveling, I'll just go in my studio and

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<v Speaker 1>make urts. I don't know. I mean, I have other

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<v Speaker 1>things I can do. But no, I'm worried for the world.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm totally worried, you know, for other homeless people in

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<v Speaker 1>Los Angeles and the immigrants who were you know, stuck

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<v Speaker 1>in cages at the border, and you know, all the

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<v Speaker 1>poor people in the world are going to suffer.

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<v Speaker 2>The Yeah. Absolutely, not to.

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<v Speaker 1>Be incredibly grim about the whole thing, but that's the

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<v Speaker 1>truth of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, it is a happier note. I want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to you about your Bernie canvassing, which seems to

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<v Speaker 2>have paid off. Has it been has it been called

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<v Speaker 2>that he's one California Now?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean I think they're still counting to see

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<v Speaker 1>how many delegates. But yeah, that's kind of the one

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<v Speaker 1>bright spot or you know, like he it's it's just

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<v Speaker 1>it's so strange because the way the mainstream media works,

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<v Speaker 1>the democratic establishment, it's kind of like you really want

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<v Speaker 1>to dig into it, you know. Biden got that one

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<v Speaker 1>endorsement and it really, uh just completely changed his momentum

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<v Speaker 1>and the media establishment. We're just waiting for something like

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<v Speaker 1>that because they really dislike Bernie Sanders. Because of Sanders wins,

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<v Speaker 1>they will lose their power in terms of being able

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<v Speaker 1>to control the message. And as kind of like moderate

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<v Speaker 1>proponents of moderacy and normal status quo, they'd be kind

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<v Speaker 1>of at a loss. And so but the fact is

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<v Speaker 1>that Joe Biden is kind of feeble, and that is

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<v Speaker 1>very scary that they've chosen this For one thing, They've

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<v Speaker 1>chosen a candidate that's not as smart as Hillary, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to run that same program. And they don't

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<v Speaker 1>understand why Trump won to begin with. They don't understand that, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>even though Obama was a lovely person, he did nothing

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, the trade deals weren't good for workers

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<v Speaker 1>in America, and he was the one who started deporting immigrants,

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<v Speaker 1>and I mean, you know, he was kind of more

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<v Speaker 1>or less carrying on the status quo. We thought there

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<v Speaker 1>would be change, but there wasn't. He's just like a

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<v Speaker 1>lovely person with the lovely family and a decent human being,

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<v Speaker 1>but he didn't really change do much to change the

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<v Speaker 1>last thirty years of democratic policies that haven't helped you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the middle class on down really and especially people you know,

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<v Speaker 1>living in poverty. Honestly. So you know the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>Trump proposed himself as a fake populist, he fooled a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people basically, but there were real problems there

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<v Speaker 1>that so the Democrat establishment hasn't really taken the time

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<v Speaker 1>to analyze really why he got elected.

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<v Speaker 2>Your campaigning for Bernie for the for the votes in California,

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<v Speaker 2>you've been properly canvassing or you've been knocking on doors? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm guessing in California you don't come across

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<v Speaker 2>many Republicans. That's that's how it seems size right at

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<v Speaker 2>the Atlantic, but is actually I mean, my presumption would

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<v Speaker 2>be you're you're asking people that I've went for and

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<v Speaker 2>that you're trying to convince them not Biden more Bernie.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you hit knocking on any doors and you're finding

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<v Speaker 2>some dihydral Well.

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<v Speaker 1>The thing is the canvassing that I did and the

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<v Speaker 1>phone banking that I did, it was mostly with people

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<v Speaker 1>who were there were Democrats who it was trying to

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<v Speaker 1>like or independence, you know, and if like they were

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<v Speaker 1>very organized and basically you'd go out with an app

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<v Speaker 1>that would tell you who who was doing a mail

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<v Speaker 1>and vote. If they were doing a mail and vote,

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<v Speaker 1>you had to like ask if they weren't declared, which

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<v Speaker 1>means usually met there were independent they had to know

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<v Speaker 1>that they had to get a Democratic ballot in order

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<v Speaker 1>to vote. So it's like doing things like that and

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<v Speaker 1>then you mark it down on your Appy. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we were going to mostly neighborhoods with a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>Hispanics and you know people some people who'd never voted before,

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<v Speaker 1>and so sometimes you'd have someone who was leaning or

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't know and you could convince them. But for

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<v Speaker 1>the most part we weren't really getting any Republicans. It

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<v Speaker 1>was pretty much all going to Democratic doors.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I'd love to imagine how I would fail

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<v Speaker 2>if I opened my daughter Canmiser and it was you.

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<v Speaker 2>If it was Kim Gordon, who I know and recognize

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<v Speaker 2>and know the musical, Did you have anyone like that?

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<v Speaker 2>Was anything?

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<v Speaker 1>There might have been a couple of people like that.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a guy who was managed a apartment building

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<v Speaker 1>who let us in. You know is a locked you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kay so and I think he might have recognized me.

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<v Speaker 1>But I always remember my mom said, when Jane Fonda

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<v Speaker 1>was married to what's his name, he was a politician

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<v Speaker 1>and they were living in Venice like kippies. Okay, right,

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<v Speaker 1>but anyway, she said, Jane Fonda came to the door

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<v Speaker 1>because that's funny. Yeah, but mostly, I mean we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to like kind of lower middle class Hispanic a neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. Sure. Were you always politically active? Like can you

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<v Speaker 2>remember like when did you get into like actively interested

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<v Speaker 2>in politics? Was at a super young age?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, because I am old. I did

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<v Speaker 1>go to a lot of you know, demonstrations, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as a teenager in the sixties, the late sixties, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen seventy, I remember we had a teacher's strike

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<v Speaker 1>at my high school and we didn't go to school

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<v Speaker 1>for like a semester. We were supporting the teachers and

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.440
<v Speaker 1>marching around the outside of the school and that was

0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 1>very exciting actually, and the feeling of what it meant

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to be part of a movement. And I have always been,

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:16.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, interested in politics. I mean, but I always

0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 1>thought as a musician, if you're you know, it's hard

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:26.200
<v Speaker 1>to do both, you know. And because sonic youth was

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 1>not a conventional band. I guess I always felt like

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 1>anything you do that's that is work, that's against the

0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.720
<v Speaker 1>homogenized culture that one lives in, is some kind of

0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:46.880
<v Speaker 1>a political action, right, But now I feel like it's,

0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, really time for action. I mean I've been,

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, ever since Trump got elected too, it's just

0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 1>been you know, it's so hard to ignore the political landscape,

0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 1>and I've become pretty obsessed with it. And I've always

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 1>been like a little skeptical of people in the public

0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>who have gotten involved with politics or but in a way,

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.120
<v Speaker 1>I kind of see how you would want to it,

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.960
<v Speaker 1>and it does give your life a little more meaning.

0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Certainly, I really liked the video that went online I'm

0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 2>guessing it was on Tuesday of you baking their cake.

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's cool.

0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. It was sort of a reference to this Martha

0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Rossler kind of video she made, right, okay, yeah, artist, Yeah,

0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:31.560
<v Speaker 1>I saw it everywhere.

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Definitely got out there, worked. Yeah.

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.480
<v Speaker 1>It was kind of a so simple and love fie

0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.200
<v Speaker 1>and kind of fun.

0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it look really great. But I mean originally, like

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 2>because you grew up in la I think a lot

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 2>of people maybe didn't really really realize this until your

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>book came out, right, Girl in the Band came out

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.920
<v Speaker 2>because of the New York thing and everyone, you know,

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.400
<v Speaker 2>something that was such a part of New York in

0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.240
<v Speaker 2>the eighties and nineties that they didn't realize that you

0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 2>actually grew up in LA and you're back in La now. Yeah,

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 2>and you want it to be a dancer, right, is

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that right?

0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, that was part of my I mean

0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 1>I always wanted to be a visual artist quite frankly,

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.360
<v Speaker 1>but I did take Martha Graham, and I did want

0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 1>to be a dancer. I liked my mom kind of

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 1>even though she was the one who found the class

0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.800
<v Speaker 1>and everything, she discouraged it. She just said, it's a

0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:26.760
<v Speaker 1>really hard life, but it mostly I just wanted to

0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 1>be a visual artist.

0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 2>How about like, now, if you're at a wedding and

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 2>that you are you the first on the dance for

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 2>a wedding?

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh god, no, no, I mean you know I have

0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 1>done this dance. I've done a few sort of conceptual

0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 1>dance pieces performances, and I worked a few times with

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 1>this really great choreographer dancer called Dimitri Chamblay. We do

0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 1>this thing that revolves around contact improvisation. I don't know

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>if you know the Sea Paston started it and kind

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 1>of comes out of a sort of flexus Judson Church

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.879
<v Speaker 1>dance group in the seventies. Basically it's using gravity and

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of each other's bodies. But I've introduced so we

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 1>do that. But I have my guitar also that I

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.399
<v Speaker 1>that kind of enters into it with sounds. And but

0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.680
<v Speaker 1>we did. We did this performance of the Louver last fall,

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.960
<v Speaker 1>I think it was last doing Fiat. That was pretty

0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>amazing just to be do it in that place. We've

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 1>done it a few times. Yeah, And he's super interesting.

0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.719
<v Speaker 1>He started a dance program in this maximum security prison

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:43.159
<v Speaker 1>in Lancaster, working with these super macho guys. It's incredible.

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 1>I saw his wife was a documented filmmaker, sent me

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.159
<v Speaker 1>a teaser of what she shot of it.

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.280
<v Speaker 2>It's amazing, Like hearing you talk about that, it just

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 2>amazes me the amount that you do and the amount

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.719
<v Speaker 2>of different mediums that you've worked in through throughout your

0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 2>career and stuff, and it just makes me like, how

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 2>do you have the time?

0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:03.439
<v Speaker 1>One?

0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>How do you have the time to do all this stuff?

0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 2>But I suppose the thing that connects everything from your

0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 2>visual art to your music to sonic you if your

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.800
<v Speaker 2>solo stuff, even like you're writing your essays and things,

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:20.600
<v Speaker 2>is this kind of thread of it being unconventional within

0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:26.800
<v Speaker 2>each of those things. Is there anything you love or

0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:31.119
<v Speaker 2>do that you consider or maybe we would consider like conventional.

0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>What is the most conventional thing that Gordon likes?

0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.919
<v Speaker 1>Well? Maybe does this new band? I suppose like to

0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.400
<v Speaker 1>go back and have a band where you rehearse and write,

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, there are songs, yeah, then you go out

0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:50.119
<v Speaker 1>and perform. I don't know, because with Bardyhead it was

0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 1>me and Bill improvising, even though it felt like a band,

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>and it is a band. I mean that's I guess conventional.

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 1>And dealing with music press and interviews and promoting, I

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 1>suppose that's pretty conventional.

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean the new record that came out last year,

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.960
<v Speaker 2>No Home Record, because that was your first solo record

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 2>that you've done in thirty eight years, which seemed to

0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:17.920
<v Speaker 2>be the narrative that a lot of people picked up on.

0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 2>Was it as big a deal for you as it

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.520
<v Speaker 2>was as it seemed to be for everyone else that

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Kim Gordon suddenly made this solo album all these years.

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.040
<v Speaker 1>In It wasn't a big deal at the time. When

0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:36.440
<v Speaker 1>I was making I didn't really think about it. And yeah,

0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.919
<v Speaker 1>it was only when yeah, I started doing interviews or

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.080
<v Speaker 1>that people wanted to do that. The record company wanted

0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:47.159
<v Speaker 1>to promote it so much. And I mean, you know,

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:48.879
<v Speaker 1>when I put the book out, that was kind of

0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:53.719
<v Speaker 1>I felt like my first time other than having various

0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 1>solo art shows, you know, but not on the same

0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.159
<v Speaker 1>scale as like, Oh, I didn't realize like what a

0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.439
<v Speaker 1>big deal books worked. It's kind of.

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.879
<v Speaker 2>You found that everybody wanted to know about it. They

0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.840
<v Speaker 2>were like hungry for this stuff. We really want to

0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.960
<v Speaker 2>know what life's been like. Yeah, was that like a surprise?

0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally. Yeah. And you know, I went to a school,

0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 1>this lab school at UCLA, which was all really learned

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.919
<v Speaker 1>by doing, and so it kind of was this cross

0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.720
<v Speaker 1>contextual learning situation very early on, before people really talked

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:37.000
<v Speaker 1>about that in education. So it's kind of in a

0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 1>way my natural instinct to work in different mediums, although

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.679
<v Speaker 1>I do always did kind of see myself form us

0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 1>as a visual thinker, visual artist or whatever.

0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, is there any mediums that you either haven't done

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 2>or you've not done that you feel you've not done

0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>enough of?

0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess I'd like to work in film or

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 1>with film, and I did actually this film as an

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:13.480
<v Speaker 1>art project that Dimitri's wife shot. Actually she's a director

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:19.320
<v Speaker 1>with me with my guitar downtown walking around downtown LA

0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 1>basically using corporate buildings as a guitar slide and logos

0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 1>and things like. I had a little app and it

0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 1>just and I had a show that opened in New York.

0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:33.879
<v Speaker 1>It was up a couple of months ago or a

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.840
<v Speaker 1>month ago, and that was an installation. There's part of it.

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.600
<v Speaker 1>And I would like to do, you know, more things

0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:47.239
<v Speaker 1>with film in art but also in a like a

0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:49.720
<v Speaker 1>some kind of feature way.

0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize until yesterday. I was reading up on

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 2>you a little bit here and there, and I didn't

0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.760
<v Speaker 2>realize that you had a fashion label as well back

0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.159
<v Speaker 2>in the early nineties.

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Ex Girl, Exgo.

0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how was how was that being like in that

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:06.639
<v Speaker 2>fashion world?

0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:12.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, my friend Daisy von Firth, who the

0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:16.720
<v Speaker 1>sister of Julie Cafritz and Pussy Color. We you know,

0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:20.040
<v Speaker 1>we knew the ex Large Boys through the Beastie Boys

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 1>and they would you know, one of them. Here Daisy

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:30.240
<v Speaker 1>and Night discussing buying boot cut by cords in the

0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:34.119
<v Speaker 1>seventies and finding the right T shirt that fit and

0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that, and there wasn't a lot going on

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.360
<v Speaker 1>in the street, wise in the fashion world in downtown

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:47.280
<v Speaker 1>New York then in the early nineties, so they asked

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.560
<v Speaker 1>us if we wanted to do a girls line. We

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:57.520
<v Speaker 1>never really considered ourselves designers really, and they it was.

0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.920
<v Speaker 1>So we did that for a couple years and then

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.239
<v Speaker 1>sold it to Japanese basically okay, which I made more

0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.000
<v Speaker 1>money doing that than I ever made being playing in

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 1>a band.

0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, that's the perfect business movie. That's

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 2>that's the model, isn't it. Build it up, sell it quick.

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, people, I think, don't make money till they sell it.

0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:18.639
<v Speaker 1>But you know, it was also a good lesson in

0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.639
<v Speaker 1>what happens when you sell your brand name, because what

0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:23.880
<v Speaker 1>they do in Japan it's we thought it would die off,

0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:26.240
<v Speaker 1>but it's still going and it's still nothing like what

0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.960
<v Speaker 1>we did at all or our idea. It's just but

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.840
<v Speaker 1>the name ex Girl really registered with people. And Mike

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:38.240
<v Speaker 1>Mills was a actually big factor in its success because

0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:42.920
<v Speaker 1>he made you know, we he designed the T shirts,

0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:46.760
<v Speaker 1>like the graphics, and you know, we talked to him

0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.200
<v Speaker 1>about what we wanted. But and you know we'd reference

0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:58.639
<v Speaker 1>like Francois Hardi or Anita Pallenberg, you know, but the

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:01.720
<v Speaker 1>clothes never really came out to fit the way we

0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.399
<v Speaker 1>wanted them to because ex Large didn't know anything about

0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.800
<v Speaker 1>making girls clothes, and we would send samples back and

0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.199
<v Speaker 1>forth and then to get it to fit right, and

0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.600
<v Speaker 1>then it would just come out as something different. But

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.920
<v Speaker 1>we're constantly being like harassed. Things were too small and

0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:22.760
<v Speaker 1>or too big, you know, and you know we didn't

0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:26.040
<v Speaker 1>have there wasn't a big budget for production, and a

0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.160
<v Speaker 1>fashion industry is super frustrating.

0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but have you have you been involved in

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:33.640
<v Speaker 2>that a little bit of the fashion industry Away from

0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:34.120
<v Speaker 2>a little.

0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Bit I've done like small Collapse, but nothing you know

0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:41.480
<v Speaker 1>that was kind of interesting, like for some reason at

0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:45.320
<v Speaker 1>that time, it had such an impact. It was also

0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:49.560
<v Speaker 1>when like a streetwear like for dudes was also like

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:55.119
<v Speaker 1>super baggy clothes, you know, and you know, we were

0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.639
<v Speaker 1>trying to do something more fitted and you know, something

0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.960
<v Speaker 1>that would appear to you know, the would appeal to

0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:04.120
<v Speaker 1>and look good on different body shapes and things like that.

0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, now, like there's so much street you know,

0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:09.560
<v Speaker 1>streetwear is now high fashion. You know, it's all like

0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:12.560
<v Speaker 1>totally bananas.

0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. One of the mediums that you've done a

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:21.720
<v Speaker 2>bit of, and I just wanted to ask if you enjoyed,

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:26.400
<v Speaker 2>was like the acting. You were in Girls and I'm

0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:26.800
<v Speaker 2>not there.

0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.720
<v Speaker 1>I was and I'm not there. And Olivia is a

0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:35.000
<v Speaker 1>French director. Yeah, his film boarding Gate And I've been

0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:37.200
<v Speaker 1>in a couple of guys friend's ant movies.

0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:38.520
<v Speaker 2>And then you've been in a few things that just

0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.239
<v Speaker 2>playing yourself as well. Yeah, those are the little yea.

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, what's that like, because you're

0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:46.439
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna actually ask if that's the easiest thing.

0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:48.040
<v Speaker 2>You just have to turn up on set and be you,

0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:48.920
<v Speaker 2>but that's hard.

0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Well, we did Gossip Girl. I think that was the

0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:53.600
<v Speaker 1>only time, right, Okay, yeah, I mean that was It

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 1>just felt really ridiculous. I mean honestly, like we only

0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:59.120
<v Speaker 1>did it because my daughter watched the show.

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Sure, okay, but oh.

0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:04.960
<v Speaker 1>And there was gilmore Girls too, A lot of shows

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:09.719
<v Speaker 1>with the name of Girls in it. But I don't know,

0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:15.919
<v Speaker 1>like I I find Yeah, I'm a little tired of

0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.400
<v Speaker 1>doing cameos. Not think I want to do it anymore.

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.360
<v Speaker 1>But I would like to to me, it's all of

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:26.399
<v Speaker 1>a spatial experience in a way, and acting to me

0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:30.639
<v Speaker 1>is moving through space and psychological stuff, which I like.

0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Yesterday I also listened back to your podcast with Mark

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Maren on the W two from a couple of years back.

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.240
<v Speaker 2>I think when the book came out, and it reminded

0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 2>me on there, there's you mentioned on there that you

0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.560
<v Speaker 2>growing up, you used to be an easy crier. You'd

0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:51.040
<v Speaker 2>cry a cry a lot. Yeah, younger, How's is that

0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:52.719
<v Speaker 2>something that's that's still around?

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:53.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm still like that.

0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel I'm getting more of a crier as

0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.919
<v Speaker 2>I get older. I think I was quite to get

0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:04.480
<v Speaker 2>through my twenties and teens and now it doesn't take

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:05.840
<v Speaker 2>much to make me want to cry.

0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:06.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Is it for you? What what sets you off? Is it? Films? Music?

0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:14.040
<v Speaker 1>And like it can be a question, you know, like

0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:16.520
<v Speaker 1>I just did this fifty question thing with the Guardian,

0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:19.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I was like, well, you want me

0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.199
<v Speaker 1>to tell you what my biggest regret is or you

0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:24.520
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean? Like like some heavy questions which

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:27.399
<v Speaker 1>I a lot of the really personal ones I kind.

0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Of flew off way. Yeah, sure, Like.

0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:35.720
<v Speaker 1>I am pretty susceptible in a certain way, to a cry,

0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:37.399
<v Speaker 1>to influences.

0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>How about films. I'm not a crier at films weirdly,

0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:45.560
<v Speaker 2>unless they're like documentaries or real life things.

0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:51.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I definitely can be. I mean, honestly, yeah,

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:53.760
<v Speaker 1>I can be, even though I'm mad that it's making

0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:56.919
<v Speaker 1>me cry or something. I hate manipulation.

0:27:57.720 --> 0:28:01.399
<v Speaker 2>Have you seen any good films recently? What did you

0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:02.520
<v Speaker 2>watch on the plane coming here?

0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh? God, I watched what is it? Ferrari versus?

0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 2>For it? Oh yeah, we have a different name for

0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:09.640
<v Speaker 2>that here.

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I actually liked it. I mean, seeing it on

0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:15.639
<v Speaker 1>a small screen, it's the worst, but yeah, yeah, I

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:20.560
<v Speaker 1>had low expectations. But I mean I love both those actors.

0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Christian Beal's amazing. And did I cry?

0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:30.159
<v Speaker 2>It's worse when you're at altitude. I think, yeah, you're more susceptible.

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:31.639
<v Speaker 1>I think I didn't quite cry.

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay, good the Yeah, that's film's got a different name.

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:38.240
<v Speaker 2>We've got a different name here for it. So when

0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 2>I was winning the Oscars, I watched the Oscars and

0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 2>they kept saying Ford versus and is this the same film?

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:47.280
<v Speaker 2>As I can remember what we called it? Oh Laman

0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:51.680
<v Speaker 2>I think it's quite okay. Yeah, have you seen Parasite yet?

0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:53.479
<v Speaker 1>Yes? That was amazing.

0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's incredible.

0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd like.

0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:58.720
<v Speaker 1>To see his other films, which I hear kind of

0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 1>more oblik is it The Host or yes?

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 2>The Host? And this one called Mother.

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>But there are these Revenge ones are supposed to be amazing. Yeah,

0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Revenge series.

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I thought Parasite was just I didn't know it.

0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Did you know anything about it going into it? I did.

0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:17.120
<v Speaker 1>I knew it. I knew a little bit. Well, I

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:20.480
<v Speaker 1>just knew that it was a film about class, right,

0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:23.120
<v Speaker 1>that's about it.

0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really, I knew nothing of it and I saw

0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 2>it in the cinema and then it just for anyone

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:31.360
<v Speaker 2>listening to this as I won't ruin it, but it

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:33.440
<v Speaker 2>just goes in a way that I just did not

0:29:33.520 --> 0:29:36.120
<v Speaker 2>expect it to go, you know, like the way it escalates.

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Oh, yeah, it was amazing.

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:39.640
<v Speaker 2>What you know, there's that moments in that.

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that he achieved a certain tone was incredible.

0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It just looks so unbelievably beautiful. Yeah, and incredible. Yeah.

0:29:48.640 --> 0:29:53.440
<v Speaker 1>Have you seen that documentary series called cheer Nelix?

0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 2>You know what I have because my wife.

0:29:55.400 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>I think watching that, did you at the end.

0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.080
<v Speaker 2>My wife is a really big fan of that, so

0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:05.360
<v Speaker 2>I would see some of it. I've seen some of it.

0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:10.560
<v Speaker 2>It's but I didn't realize. So if anyone listening that

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.480
<v Speaker 2>hasn't seen Cheers a Netflix on Netflix with the Netflix show,

0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 2>it's a documentary about a cheerleader squad in Texas, right right,

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:18.640
<v Speaker 2>but they're not.

0:30:18.880 --> 0:30:22.280
<v Speaker 1>It's like their gymnet. Yeah, it's almost like I had

0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:25.360
<v Speaker 1>no idea. My idea of cheerleading was not that. No.

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was like that you see on like

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:32.120
<v Speaker 2>NFL or at basketball games. But actually, real cheerleaders have

0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 2>to retire at the age of like fifteen or something

0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 2>like really early, don't they in that show.

0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:38.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean there is no They go through carl Is

0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.800
<v Speaker 1>a college program, right college, and yeah, there isn't anything

0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:46.120
<v Speaker 1>after that, really, yes, unless they become Olympic gymnasts or something.

0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:46.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of brutal that they train, and they train

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:55.160
<v Speaker 2>them so hard, so hard, like they're like breaking spraining

0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 2>ankles and breaking noses and falling off pyramids. Yeah, that

0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:01.880
<v Speaker 2>show is really quite fascinat Yeah, world totally.

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean I was watching it while I was rehearsing

0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>with this new band that I just never played with before.

0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:12.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing, and I was like,

0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:14.400
<v Speaker 1>they can do that, Pyramid, I can do.

0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's great inspirational TV. Yeah yeah. And then they

0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:23.280
<v Speaker 2>get to the end of their college career and I.

0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Just that's it's just go.

0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 2>And do something else with you all.

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 1>And a lot of them came from just these really

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 1>screwed up background and said, yeah, they kind of it

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:36.800
<v Speaker 1>saved them and galvanized their life in a certain way.

0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's nuts. I suppose this fits in actually with

0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:43.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, everybody thinking how wild it is that you've

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 2>just made a solo album. Is it right that you

0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:48.960
<v Speaker 2>first picked up an instrument when you were like twenty seven?

0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's true, which I mean I was in a band,

0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:58.160
<v Speaker 1>was in this sort of garage noise band in college briefly, right,

0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:01.480
<v Speaker 1>but you know that was kind of a just for

0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:02.560
<v Speaker 1>an art class.

0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Sure. Yeah, it's I think that's quite. That's really inspirational

0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 2>to hear that, because it feels like twenty seven. In

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>the music industry, twenty seven is considered quite.

0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and yet that's kind of how old Patty Smith

0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:19.480
<v Speaker 1>and Debbie Harry were when they started, right. Yeah, you know,

0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>it's just I think people's focus on age became younger

0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.840
<v Speaker 1>and younger. But I honestly still don't think of myself

0:32:28.800 --> 0:32:31.880
<v Speaker 1>as a musician. You know, I never learned to play conventionally,

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.000
<v Speaker 1>and I you know, I've sort of picked it up

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 1>in the spirit of post punk. You know, do yourself

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:43.800
<v Speaker 1>in a downtown music scene, be inspired by no Wave

0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 1>and which were mostly bands started by artists, and you

0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:51.320
<v Speaker 1>know it was completely expressionistic and not conventional.

0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Did you have you had to kind of almost try

0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:56.640
<v Speaker 2>to not learn convention.

0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>That's my technique. Yeah, it is a technice, certainly not

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 1>getting too good or polished.

0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You know, there's those stories of Malcolm McLaren when

0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.320
<v Speaker 2>he formed the Sex Pistols, getting angry at them for

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:13.480
<v Speaker 2>like practicing too much because they wanted to get better,

0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and he was like, you're missing the point. Why would

0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:18.320
<v Speaker 2>you want to be good? Right, that's not the point

0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:23.240
<v Speaker 2>of this. We actually had viv Albertine on the podcast

0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 2>last year and she was She told me how she

0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:32.480
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't necessarily choose the life that she's had if she

0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 2>could go back, and she certainly would discourage her daughter

0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:39.080
<v Speaker 2>from doing what she's done, and the point that she

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:43.840
<v Speaker 2>made was that it's so exhausting being a punk and

0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:46.000
<v Speaker 2>being creative in the way that she's been creative throughout

0:33:46.000 --> 0:33:49.440
<v Speaker 2>her life. She said, it's exhausting. It's a really uncomfortable

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 2>was the word that she used. Does that resonate with

0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.600
<v Speaker 2>you in any way, like just that that idea of

0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:57.320
<v Speaker 2>being operating outside of the mainstream to such an extent

0:33:57.360 --> 0:33:58.840
<v Speaker 2>and being continually creative.

0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean not really, because I basically wanted to be

0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:08.880
<v Speaker 1>an artist, which is sort of the same thing. I

0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:12.080
<v Speaker 1>think it's you know, my mother said to me once,

0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:15.880
<v Speaker 1>like she didn't give me much advice at all, but

0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:20.520
<v Speaker 1>she said, you should learn a technique, which I'm not

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:24.279
<v Speaker 1>sure I did it. Yeah, but I understand that like

0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.799
<v Speaker 1>to have something that because there's something about being in

0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the public that you know, it's fame, it's weird and

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.759
<v Speaker 1>the way people appreciate what you do, and it can

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:44.040
<v Speaker 1>make you feel like an impostor because the value system

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 1>is so askewed, and you know, like how do you

0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.520
<v Speaker 1>equate the worth of what you do? You know, it's

0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:54.399
<v Speaker 1>not like being a plumber where you can do really

0:34:54.440 --> 0:35:00.040
<v Speaker 1>good work and see it, you know, but I you

0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 1>have learned something about performance, I think, And so that's

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:08.879
<v Speaker 1>a weird thing to say that's a technique, but it's

0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 1>and it's also within that it's like not being too

0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:15.960
<v Speaker 1>polished or you know, for me, like that's what I

0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 1>relate to like a but I you know, I appreciate

0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 1>other people who are really good at it, but I

0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:30.879
<v Speaker 1>don't relate to it myself. It is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable

0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:37.040
<v Speaker 1>not knowing how you're gonna get your next set of

0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:42.279
<v Speaker 1>dollar bills or you know whatever. It's kind of you know,

0:35:42.800 --> 0:35:49.240
<v Speaker 1>financially unstable. And but I think, you know, and maybe

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 1>my regret is is that I, ah maybe stayed too

0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 1>long in playing in a band like Sonic Youth. And

0:35:58.719 --> 0:36:03.840
<v Speaker 1>I only did because continue to like the music and

0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:06.799
<v Speaker 1>want to support it, but you know, and it's it

0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:11.120
<v Speaker 1>becomes a machine that's hard to get out of. So

0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.480
<v Speaker 1>basically I took the breakup of the marriage to do that.

0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:19.640
<v Speaker 1>But I always felt like I owed it to myself

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:25.759
<v Speaker 1>to really go back. And even though I had tried

0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:31.560
<v Speaker 1>to maintain my pulse in art and and do things

0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.920
<v Speaker 1>when I could, I owed it to myself to really

0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:39.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, focus on that more.

0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:42.759
<v Speaker 2>Is there anything that you can imagine you would have

0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:46.960
<v Speaker 2>done if it wasn't a life of art? What else

0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:48.839
<v Speaker 2>would you what would you have done if you weren't

0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:49.120
<v Speaker 2>doing this?

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:51.440
<v Speaker 1>You mean not working in film or anything else?

0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:54.600
<v Speaker 2>Uh no, I'll give you that, you can accuse.

0:36:55.040 --> 0:37:00.479
<v Speaker 1>I guess that would be it. Yeah, I did film,

0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 1>and I I think in college I made a.

0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Film, right, Okay, what's that about?

0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:08.160
<v Speaker 1>It was about It was a surrealist film. It was

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 1>about Patty Hurst.

0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay, cool, I am talking of plumbers. I sometimes quite

0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 2>fantasize about being a plumber. It's not a great fantasy

0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 2>to have. But that thing that you mentioned of just

0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:25.719
<v Speaker 2>knowing there's no subject activity to whether it's yeah, you

0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:27.600
<v Speaker 2>go and you fix the sink. You have to fix

0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:29.759
<v Speaker 2>the sink, and you fix the sink, right, and that's tick.

0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:32.279
<v Speaker 2>You can tick that off as a done thing. And

0:37:32.320 --> 0:37:36.920
<v Speaker 2>I think that's something that it sounds quite appealing. There

0:37:37.000 --> 0:37:39.680
<v Speaker 2>might be plumbers listening to this who are bought sick

0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.840
<v Speaker 2>of that. Yeah, but I under I can see what

0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:44.560
<v Speaker 2>you mean by I think by like, oh, that would

0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:47.680
<v Speaker 2>actually be quite a novel. Nice if you've not been

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:49.919
<v Speaker 2>doing that for your whole life that that's actually quiet.

0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm not saying I don't mean to take

0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.360
<v Speaker 1>away from plumbers. I mean I just think that doing

0:37:55.440 --> 0:38:00.680
<v Speaker 1>something concrete, but actually, you know, water in leaks is

0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:07.640
<v Speaker 1>also incredible mysterious as electricity to me. But yeah, just

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:12.520
<v Speaker 1>having something concrete to do, you know, whether you're a

0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:14.799
<v Speaker 1>nurse or you know whatever, and you leave your job

0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.760
<v Speaker 1>and you go home, and you go home. But honestly,

0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:20.399
<v Speaker 1>like I wouldn't know what to do if I had

0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:21.400
<v Speaker 1>nothing to think about.

0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do you find yourself just working constantly on things?

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Pretty much? Yeah?

0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:29.319
<v Speaker 2>You kind of. Because you've got a studio at home.

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:31.799
<v Speaker 1>Do you have I have a studio outside of my home?

0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, like just you have to go to the studio.

0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah you have to go to this, Okay cool, But

0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.080
<v Speaker 2>then when you get home, are you just are you

0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:42.040
<v Speaker 2>good at just leaving that there and watching cheer?

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Sure, I mean I don't go I'm not like

0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:47.280
<v Speaker 1>an artist who goes my studio nine to five or anything.

0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:50.560
<v Speaker 1>It just depends on the project. And I but I

0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 1>mean as like, not a conceptual artist. But to me,

0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:59.920
<v Speaker 1>it's I like, to you know, it starts with an idea,

0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:03.080
<v Speaker 1>so you can do that anywhere, or you can you know,

0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:07.239
<v Speaker 1>write write things, or you know, anywhere and just kind

0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:10.919
<v Speaker 1>of looking around and observing and just thinking taking things

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 1>in And to me, that's kind of fun. You can

0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:22.479
<v Speaker 1>do anywhere. I like, I admire poets because your life

0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 1>is just a constant. You know, you can do it

0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:29.319
<v Speaker 1>anywhere and think about it.

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.759
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, poet has to be the most romantic of

0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:33.320
<v Speaker 2>the arts.

0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I would say, my daughter's become a really good part.

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh really, Okay, great, it's kind of the forgotten art.

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:41.080
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people say, isn't it poetry?

0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:43.640
<v Speaker 1>It's funny though, I think there are more living poets

0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 1>in there have ever been, right, Poetry has never been bigger.

0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:51.799
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's coming back in a big way. How did

0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:54.560
<v Speaker 2>you enjoy the book writing? Did you Did you enjoy

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:55.760
<v Speaker 2>putting the book together?

0:39:56.200 --> 0:40:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's kind of one part torture. I mean

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:04.160
<v Speaker 1>some parts I loved writing about, and then other parts

0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:08.600
<v Speaker 1>were hard to write about and it was kind of daunting.

0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.160
<v Speaker 1>But I had an editor who's it was almost like

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 1>getting an assignment, Okay, write more about this, you know,

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:17.160
<v Speaker 1>and something to nudge you along.

0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 2>So the bits that you didn't enjoy writing about for

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.719
<v Speaker 2>whatever reasons they were were there, ever, I'm guessing it's

0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:24.000
<v Speaker 2>not an option to just be like, we're just not

0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:25.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm just not going to write that. I'm not going

0:40:25.160 --> 0:40:25.799
<v Speaker 2>to put that well.

0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:28.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean the hardest thing actually to write about in

0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:33.920
<v Speaker 1>a certain way was, well, one, how to integrate sonic

0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.319
<v Speaker 1>youth into it, which is was such a big part

0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:39.840
<v Speaker 1>of my life. But I didn't want to write a

0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.880
<v Speaker 1>book about sonic youth. I'm sure some days someone will

0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:49.399
<v Speaker 1>write a good book about sonic youth. And the other

0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:54.879
<v Speaker 1>thing was how to how to talk about the art

0:40:54.920 --> 0:41:01.120
<v Speaker 1>world and certain artists who are influential and you know,

0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 1>not knowing is this going to be boring because no

0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:06.959
<v Speaker 1>one knows this is not a public figure, and it's

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:11.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of abstract ideas that just really hard to

0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:17.200
<v Speaker 1>put in a format that's kind of a popular format.

0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:21.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, my mom writing that was the harness thing.

0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:26.480
<v Speaker 1>And I had a book of essays that came out

0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:30.359
<v Speaker 1>maybe the year before, and I wish that they could

0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:31.560
<v Speaker 1>have just been put together.

0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do you think that's on the book front? Is

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:40.360
<v Speaker 2>because some people write, you know, three autobiographies. That book

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:42.719
<v Speaker 2>felt like it was all there and it doesn't need

0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:45.200
<v Speaker 2>to be anymore. But how do you how do you

0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:48.040
<v Speaker 2>feel about it? Would you write not necessarily another autography

0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 2>or an extended one, but is there any other writing

0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 2>that you particularly want to do?

0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I have I have to get back

0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 1>to it. But there is some something I started writing

0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:01.840
<v Speaker 1>that was more. It kind of came out of something

0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:10.040
<v Speaker 1>I wrote for an art show and it was really

0:42:10.080 --> 0:42:12.279
<v Speaker 1>just an excuse to have a structure to write in,

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:17.440
<v Speaker 1>and I've sort of extended it. I would like to

0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:20.200
<v Speaker 1>finish it and just put it out more as like

0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:22.600
<v Speaker 1>an art book or something and not promoted.

0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, Yeah.

0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Like a novel letter.

0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Nice. Well, the book's amazing. The new record is

0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:34.480
<v Speaker 2>not that new anymore, is it. It's an old record.

0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:36.680
<v Speaker 2>It probably feels weird to still be like talking about

0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:40.000
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. But they're both great. So thanks

0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:40.800
<v Speaker 2>for coming on the podcast.

0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:42.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh thanks, Lash, It's a pleasure.

0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Anyway. Good night,