Speaker 1: Maybe my regret is that I maybe stay too long
Speaker 1: in playing in a band Exnic Youth.
Speaker 2: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to episode eighty nine of
Speaker 2: the podcast, which is going out a very strange time
Speaker 2: in the history of the world. Maybe you're listening to
Speaker 2: this in the future, maybe far in the future, and
Speaker 2: everything's back to normal. I certainly hope that's the case.
Speaker 2: But right now we are in the middle of the
Speaker 2: coronavirus pandemic. It's actually quite early days here in London.
Speaker 2: We've probably been isolation self isolation for about five days.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I wish we'll think in saying that we're
Speaker 2: in the middle of it. But wherever you are, I
Speaker 2: hope you're dealing with the weirdness of the situation, and
Speaker 2: I hope you're keeping safe and busy and not going
Speaker 2: crazy yet. This podcast is one that we recorded maybe
Speaker 2: a month ago or something like that. I mean, coronavirus
Speaker 2: was very much the talk of the day back then.
Speaker 2: We recorded this the morning that South By Southwest decided
Speaker 2: to cancel. That's where the conversation picks up. Obviously, since then,
Speaker 2: in terms of the music industry, everything has canceled, all
Speaker 2: festivals are on hold, for now. So yeah, it just
Speaker 2: feels it feels strange to listen back to this time
Speaker 2: capsule from a time not too long ago when we
Speaker 2: were speculating what might or might not happen due to
Speaker 2: this crisis. So I don't have any answers. Obviously, I
Speaker 2: am extremely excited that we have Kim Gordon on the podcast,
Speaker 2: So I mean, it doesn't get much bigger or better
Speaker 2: than that for us. I mean, you know, ridiculous. I
Speaker 2: was a bit nervous meet and Kim. She's insanely cool
Speaker 2: and extremely smart, and we pick up in this conversation
Speaker 2: we kind of it's a bit of a whistle stop
Speaker 2: tour of loads of the different things that she has
Speaker 2: done throughout her life, and it's everything essentially from visual arts.
Speaker 2: She's recently been the week that I spoke to her,
Speaker 2: she's been campaigning for Bernie Sanders in the US primaries
Speaker 2: in California. She's done some acting, she's done some dance.
Speaker 2: She's obviously changed the face of modern post punk with
Speaker 2: Sonic Youth, and she's released a solo album last year
Speaker 2: called No Home Record. She's written an autobiography. We touch
Speaker 2: on all of these sorts of things I'm sure you know,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe all of them, maybe some of them.
Speaker 2: I've put some links below this episode. The guy that
Speaker 2: Kim talks about who was married to Jane Fonder, I
Speaker 2: believe was Thomas Emma Hayden. And that's pretty much all
Speaker 2: you need to know going into thank you for downloading
Speaker 2: Stay Safe out there, and in terms of what you
Speaker 2: can do to support this podcast and Loud and Quiet,
Speaker 2: because I'll be totally honest with you, we have no
Speaker 2: idea just how fucked we are right now, but we
Speaker 2: are working on it and we're seeing a way to continue.
Speaker 2: But we have created a donations button on our subscription
Speaker 2: page on Loud and Quiet dot com. As we always say,
Speaker 2: you are more than welcome to subscribe to the magazine,
Speaker 2: but right now, if there's just a nominal, small amount
Speaker 2: that you can pay us that doesn't cost as much
Speaker 2: as subscription, everyone's feeling it right now and we fully
Speaker 2: appreciate that. So you know, we don't really want to
Speaker 2: be asking for your money, but some people have been
Speaker 2: in touch and said, can we bung you a few quid?
Speaker 2: And you can do that now at Loud and Quiet
Speaker 2: dot com. Forward slash subscribe put in any amount, It
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what it is. Most importantly, though, just tell
Speaker 2: a friend about this podcast. This is number eighty nine,
Speaker 2: we're approaching one hundred. We've had some really great people
Speaker 2: on and we just as many people here as possible.
Speaker 2: So especially right now when people are twiddling their thumbs
Speaker 2: a bit, just tell someone that you like this podcast,
Speaker 2: if indeed you do, and hopefully you're like this episode myself.
Speaker 2: Stuart Stubs talking to Kim Gordon. Thanks for doing this.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah you How was your flight in yesterday?
Speaker 1: I was fine. I didn't know what to expect on
Speaker 1: the air plane, like if everyone's going to be wearing
Speaker 1: masks or how. It's great. It looks seem no, not really.
Speaker 1: I saw like a couple mass in the airport, but
Speaker 1: not not really.
Speaker 2: It feels like this week here. I don't know what
Speaker 2: it's been like in the States, but here we've kind
Speaker 2: of gone to a new level with it with the
Speaker 2: whole Corona thing. Is it. What's it like in the
Speaker 2: States right now?
Speaker 1: Well, I think kind of it's getting rough because well,
Speaker 1: for one thing, Trump is terrible, you know, like his
Speaker 1: whole rollout of it. It's like he's always wants to
Speaker 1: make everything about himself, right, you know, which isn't constructive
Speaker 1: when there's a potential pandemic, global pandemic and so and
Speaker 1: he lies pretty much everything that comes out of his
Speaker 1: mouth is a lie, So you tend to want to
Speaker 1: assume the opposite sure for whatever he says, and it's
Speaker 1: this is you know, it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: I saw that minis that series Chernobyl, you know, and
Speaker 1: that kind of reminds me of it was very timely.
Speaker 1: It's it reminds me of kind of the potential with
Speaker 1: Trump because he just wants to make himself look good
Speaker 1: all the time and the fact that actually there aren't
Speaker 1: enough testing kits and things like that, or you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's like he just really says things like, well,
Speaker 1: we've had a really good, smooth rollout, Like that's what
Speaker 1: he is, like his message, she wants it to be.
Speaker 1: And I understand he's trying to calm the markets, but
Speaker 1: I think if he talked to you know, if he
Speaker 1: if they had did a better job of preparing knowing
Speaker 1: what was coming, you know, that would have been more
Speaker 1: calming than.
Speaker 2: So his kind of partline is everything's fine. That's that's
Speaker 2: his approach to it, right, how about like on a
Speaker 2: just on a street level in because you're in La, Right,
Speaker 2: what's the general kind of.
Speaker 1: I mean it's pretty you know, aside from the fact
Speaker 1: that people are stocking up on food and and you
Speaker 1: can't find hand sanitizer this this.
Speaker 2: Week that's happened here. Yeah, sanitizer is like I know,
Speaker 2: I noticed, I went to look.
Speaker 1: I was curious. I went in a drug store last night,
Speaker 1: the Super Drag and yeah, there was everything was gone.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Aside from that, it's doesn't seem I mean, south By
Speaker 1: south West was canceled yesterday.
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of curious what's going to happen with other festivals,
Speaker 1: Like maybe I won't be touring the summer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like we're kind of in this real
Speaker 2: state of limbo now, doesn't it. With south By Southwest
Speaker 2: canceling yesterday? It does feel like how long is this
Speaker 2: going to go on? And does that is that going
Speaker 2: to be a domino effect now? Especially for things happening
Speaker 2: in the very near future. Are you, like, personally are
Speaker 2: you are you worried? Are you particularly worried yourself? I
Speaker 2: mean in terms of just the I'm worried.
Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, yeah, I mean I'm worried. But if
Speaker 1: I'm not traveling, I'll just go in my studio and
Speaker 1: make urts. I don't know. I mean, I have other
Speaker 1: things I can do. But no, I'm worried for the world.
Speaker 1: I'm totally worried, you know, for other homeless people in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and the immigrants who were you know, stuck
Speaker 1: in cages at the border, and you know, all the
Speaker 1: poor people in the world are going to suffer.
Speaker 2: The Yeah. Absolutely, not to.
Speaker 1: Be incredibly grim about the whole thing, but that's the
Speaker 1: truth of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it is a happier note. I want to
Speaker 2: talk to you about your Bernie canvassing, which seems to
Speaker 2: have paid off. Has it been has it been called
Speaker 2: that he's one California Now?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I think they're still counting to see
Speaker 1: how many delegates. But yeah, that's kind of the one
Speaker 1: bright spot or you know, like he it's it's just
Speaker 1: it's so strange because the way the mainstream media works,
Speaker 1: the democratic establishment, it's kind of like you really want
Speaker 1: to dig into it, you know. Biden got that one
Speaker 1: endorsement and it really, uh just completely changed his momentum
Speaker 1: and the media establishment. We're just waiting for something like
Speaker 1: that because they really dislike Bernie Sanders. Because of Sanders wins,
Speaker 1: they will lose their power in terms of being able
Speaker 1: to control the message. And as kind of like moderate
Speaker 1: proponents of moderacy and normal status quo, they'd be kind
Speaker 1: of at a loss. And so but the fact is
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden is kind of feeble, and that is
Speaker 1: very scary that they've chosen this For one thing, They've
Speaker 1: chosen a candidate that's not as smart as Hillary, and
Speaker 1: they're trying to run that same program. And they don't
Speaker 1: understand why Trump won to begin with. They don't understand that, yes,
Speaker 1: even though Obama was a lovely person, he did nothing
Speaker 1: to you know, the trade deals weren't good for workers
Speaker 1: in America, and he was the one who started deporting immigrants,
Speaker 1: and I mean, you know, he was kind of more
Speaker 1: or less carrying on the status quo. We thought there
Speaker 1: would be change, but there wasn't. He's just like a
Speaker 1: lovely person with the lovely family and a decent human being,
Speaker 1: but he didn't really change do much to change the
Speaker 1: last thirty years of democratic policies that haven't helped you know,
Speaker 1: the middle class on down really and especially people you know,
Speaker 1: living in poverty. Honestly. So you know the fact that
Speaker 1: Trump proposed himself as a fake populist, he fooled a
Speaker 1: lot of people basically, but there were real problems there
Speaker 1: that so the Democrat establishment hasn't really taken the time
Speaker 1: to analyze really why he got elected.
Speaker 2: Your campaigning for Bernie for the for the votes in California,
Speaker 2: you've been properly canvassing or you've been knocking on doors? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm guessing in California you don't come across
Speaker 2: many Republicans. That's that's how it seems size right at
Speaker 2: the Atlantic, but is actually I mean, my presumption would
Speaker 2: be you're you're asking people that I've went for and
Speaker 2: that you're trying to convince them not Biden more Bernie.
Speaker 2: Are you hit knocking on any doors and you're finding
Speaker 2: some dihydral Well.
Speaker 1: The thing is the canvassing that I did and the
Speaker 1: phone banking that I did, it was mostly with people
Speaker 1: who were there were Democrats who it was trying to
Speaker 1: like or independence, you know, and if like they were
Speaker 1: very organized and basically you'd go out with an app
Speaker 1: that would tell you who who was doing a mail
Speaker 1: and vote. If they were doing a mail and vote,
Speaker 1: you had to like ask if they weren't declared, which
Speaker 1: means usually met there were independent they had to know
Speaker 1: that they had to get a Democratic ballot in order
Speaker 1: to vote. So it's like doing things like that and
Speaker 1: then you mark it down on your Appy. And you know,
Speaker 1: we were going to mostly neighborhoods with a lot of
Speaker 1: Hispanics and you know people some people who'd never voted before,
Speaker 1: and so sometimes you'd have someone who was leaning or
Speaker 1: they didn't know and you could convince them. But for
Speaker 1: the most part we weren't really getting any Republicans. It
Speaker 1: was pretty much all going to Democratic doors.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'd love to imagine how I would fail
Speaker 2: if I opened my daughter Canmiser and it was you.
Speaker 2: If it was Kim Gordon, who I know and recognize
Speaker 2: and know the musical, Did you have anyone like that?
Speaker 2: Was anything?
Speaker 1: There might have been a couple of people like that.
Speaker 1: There was a guy who was managed a apartment building
Speaker 1: who let us in. You know is a locked you know,
Speaker 1: kay so and I think he might have recognized me.
Speaker 1: But I always remember my mom said, when Jane Fonda
Speaker 1: was married to what's his name, he was a politician
Speaker 1: and they were living in Venice like kippies. Okay, right,
Speaker 1: but anyway, she said, Jane Fonda came to the door
Speaker 1: because that's funny. Yeah, but mostly, I mean we're going
Speaker 1: to like kind of lower middle class Hispanic a neighborhood.
Speaker 2: Okay. Sure. Were you always politically active? Like can you
Speaker 2: remember like when did you get into like actively interested
Speaker 2: in politics? Was at a super young age?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, because I am old. I did
Speaker 1: go to a lot of you know, demonstrations, you know,
Speaker 1: as a teenager in the sixties, the late sixties, you know,
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy, I remember we had a teacher's strike
Speaker 1: at my high school and we didn't go to school
Speaker 1: for like a semester. We were supporting the teachers and
Speaker 1: marching around the outside of the school and that was
Speaker 1: very exciting actually, and the feeling of what it meant
Speaker 1: to be part of a movement. And I have always been,
Speaker 1: you know, interested in politics. I mean, but I always
Speaker 1: thought as a musician, if you're you know, it's hard
Speaker 1: to do both, you know. And because sonic youth was
Speaker 1: not a conventional band. I guess I always felt like
Speaker 1: anything you do that's that is work, that's against the
Speaker 1: homogenized culture that one lives in, is some kind of
Speaker 1: a political action, right, But now I feel like it's,
Speaker 1: you know, really time for action. I mean I've been,
Speaker 1: you know, ever since Trump got elected too, it's just
Speaker 1: been you know, it's so hard to ignore the political landscape,
Speaker 1: and I've become pretty obsessed with it. And I've always
Speaker 1: been like a little skeptical of people in the public
Speaker 1: who have gotten involved with politics or but in a way,
Speaker 1: I kind of see how you would want to it,
Speaker 1: and it does give your life a little more meaning.
Speaker 2: Certainly, I really liked the video that went online I'm
Speaker 2: guessing it was on Tuesday of you baking their cake.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was sort of a reference to this Martha
Speaker 1: Rossler kind of video she made, right, okay, yeah, artist, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw it everywhere.
Speaker 2: Definitely got out there, worked. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was kind of a so simple and love fie
Speaker 1: and kind of fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it look really great. But I mean originally, like
Speaker 2: because you grew up in la I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people maybe didn't really really realize this until your
Speaker 2: book came out, right, Girl in the Band came out
Speaker 2: because of the New York thing and everyone, you know,
Speaker 2: something that was such a part of New York in
Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties that they didn't realize that you
Speaker 2: actually grew up in LA and you're back in La now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you want it to be a dancer, right, is
Speaker 2: that right?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that was part of my I mean
Speaker 1: I always wanted to be a visual artist quite frankly,
Speaker 1: but I did take Martha Graham, and I did want
Speaker 1: to be a dancer. I liked my mom kind of
Speaker 1: even though she was the one who found the class
Speaker 1: and everything, she discouraged it. She just said, it's a
Speaker 1: really hard life, but it mostly I just wanted to
Speaker 1: be a visual artist.
Speaker 2: How about like, now, if you're at a wedding and
Speaker 2: that you are you the first on the dance for
Speaker 2: a wedding?
Speaker 1: Oh god, no, no, I mean you know I have
Speaker 1: done this dance. I've done a few sort of conceptual
Speaker 1: dance pieces performances, and I worked a few times with
Speaker 1: this really great choreographer dancer called Dimitri Chamblay. We do
Speaker 1: this thing that revolves around contact improvisation. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you know the Sea Paston started it and kind
Speaker 1: of comes out of a sort of flexus Judson Church
Speaker 1: dance group in the seventies. Basically it's using gravity and
Speaker 1: kind of each other's bodies. But I've introduced so we
Speaker 1: do that. But I have my guitar also that I
Speaker 1: that kind of enters into it with sounds. And but
Speaker 1: we did. We did this performance of the Louver last fall,
Speaker 1: I think it was last doing Fiat. That was pretty
Speaker 1: amazing just to be do it in that place. We've
Speaker 1: done it a few times. Yeah, And he's super interesting.
Speaker 1: He started a dance program in this maximum security prison
Speaker 1: in Lancaster, working with these super macho guys. It's incredible.
Speaker 1: I saw his wife was a documented filmmaker, sent me
Speaker 1: a teaser of what she shot of it.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, Like hearing you talk about that, it just
Speaker 2: amazes me the amount that you do and the amount
Speaker 2: of different mediums that you've worked in through throughout your
Speaker 2: career and stuff, and it just makes me like, how
Speaker 2: do you have the time?
Speaker 1: One?
Speaker 2: How do you have the time to do all this stuff?
Speaker 2: But I suppose the thing that connects everything from your
Speaker 2: visual art to your music to sonic you if your
Speaker 2: solo stuff, even like you're writing your essays and things,
Speaker 2: is this kind of thread of it being unconventional within
Speaker 2: each of those things. Is there anything you love or
Speaker 2: do that you consider or maybe we would consider like conventional.
Speaker 2: What is the most conventional thing that Gordon likes?
Speaker 1: Well? Maybe does this new band? I suppose like to
Speaker 1: go back and have a band where you rehearse and write,
Speaker 1: you know, there are songs, yeah, then you go out
Speaker 1: and perform. I don't know, because with Bardyhead it was
Speaker 1: me and Bill improvising, even though it felt like a band,
Speaker 1: and it is a band. I mean that's I guess conventional.
Speaker 1: And dealing with music press and interviews and promoting, I
Speaker 1: suppose that's pretty conventional.
Speaker 2: I mean the new record that came out last year,
Speaker 2: No Home Record, because that was your first solo record
Speaker 2: that you've done in thirty eight years, which seemed to
Speaker 2: be the narrative that a lot of people picked up on.
Speaker 2: Was it as big a deal for you as it
Speaker 2: was as it seemed to be for everyone else that
Speaker 2: Kim Gordon suddenly made this solo album all these years.
Speaker 1: In It wasn't a big deal at the time. When
Speaker 1: I was making I didn't really think about it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it was only when yeah, I started doing interviews or
Speaker 1: that people wanted to do that. The record company wanted
Speaker 1: to promote it so much. And I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: when I put the book out, that was kind of
Speaker 1: I felt like my first time other than having various
Speaker 1: solo art shows, you know, but not on the same
Speaker 1: scale as like, Oh, I didn't realize like what a
Speaker 1: big deal books worked. It's kind of.
Speaker 2: You found that everybody wanted to know about it. They
Speaker 2: were like hungry for this stuff. We really want to
Speaker 2: know what life's been like. Yeah, was that like a surprise?
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And you know, I went to a school,
Speaker 1: this lab school at UCLA, which was all really learned
Speaker 1: by doing, and so it kind of was this cross
Speaker 1: contextual learning situation very early on, before people really talked
Speaker 1: about that in education. So it's kind of in a
Speaker 1: way my natural instinct to work in different mediums, although
Speaker 1: I do always did kind of see myself form us
Speaker 1: as a visual thinker, visual artist or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there any mediums that you either haven't done
Speaker 2: or you've not done that you feel you've not done
Speaker 2: enough of?
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'd like to work in film or
Speaker 1: with film, and I did actually this film as an
Speaker 1: art project that Dimitri's wife shot. Actually she's a director
Speaker 1: with me with my guitar downtown walking around downtown LA
Speaker 1: basically using corporate buildings as a guitar slide and logos
Speaker 1: and things like. I had a little app and it
Speaker 1: just and I had a show that opened in New York.
Speaker 1: It was up a couple of months ago or a
Speaker 1: month ago, and that was an installation. There's part of it.
Speaker 1: And I would like to do, you know, more things
Speaker 1: with film in art but also in a like a
Speaker 1: some kind of feature way.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize until yesterday. I was reading up on
Speaker 2: you a little bit here and there, and I didn't
Speaker 2: realize that you had a fashion label as well back
Speaker 2: in the early nineties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ex Girl, Exgo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how was how was that being like in that
Speaker 2: fashion world?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, my friend Daisy von Firth, who the
Speaker 1: sister of Julie Cafritz and Pussy Color. We you know,
Speaker 1: we knew the ex Large Boys through the Beastie Boys
Speaker 1: and they would you know, one of them. Here Daisy
Speaker 1: and Night discussing buying boot cut by cords in the
Speaker 1: seventies and finding the right T shirt that fit and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and there wasn't a lot going on
Speaker 1: in the street, wise in the fashion world in downtown
Speaker 1: New York then in the early nineties, so they asked
Speaker 1: us if we wanted to do a girls line. We
Speaker 1: never really considered ourselves designers really, and they it was.
Speaker 1: So we did that for a couple years and then
Speaker 1: sold it to Japanese basically okay, which I made more
Speaker 1: money doing that than I ever made being playing in
Speaker 1: a band.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, that's the perfect business movie. That's
Speaker 2: that's the model, isn't it. Build it up, sell it quick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people, I think, don't make money till they sell it.
Speaker 1: But you know, it was also a good lesson in
Speaker 1: what happens when you sell your brand name, because what
Speaker 1: they do in Japan it's we thought it would die off,
Speaker 1: but it's still going and it's still nothing like what
Speaker 1: we did at all or our idea. It's just but
Speaker 1: the name ex Girl really registered with people. And Mike
Speaker 1: Mills was a actually big factor in its success because
Speaker 1: he made you know, we he designed the T shirts,
Speaker 1: like the graphics, and you know, we talked to him
Speaker 1: about what we wanted. But and you know we'd reference
Speaker 1: like Francois Hardi or Anita Pallenberg, you know, but the
Speaker 1: clothes never really came out to fit the way we
Speaker 1: wanted them to because ex Large didn't know anything about
Speaker 1: making girls clothes, and we would send samples back and
Speaker 1: forth and then to get it to fit right, and
Speaker 1: then it would just come out as something different. But
Speaker 1: we're constantly being like harassed. Things were too small and
Speaker 1: or too big, you know, and you know we didn't
Speaker 1: have there wasn't a big budget for production, and a
Speaker 1: fashion industry is super frustrating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but have you have you been involved in
Speaker 2: that a little bit of the fashion industry Away from
Speaker 2: a little.
Speaker 1: Bit I've done like small Collapse, but nothing you know
Speaker 1: that was kind of interesting, like for some reason at
Speaker 1: that time, it had such an impact. It was also
Speaker 1: when like a streetwear like for dudes was also like
Speaker 1: super baggy clothes, you know, and you know, we were
Speaker 1: trying to do something more fitted and you know, something
Speaker 1: that would appear to you know, the would appeal to
Speaker 1: and look good on different body shapes and things like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, now, like there's so much street you know,
Speaker 1: streetwear is now high fashion. You know, it's all like
Speaker 1: totally bananas.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. One of the mediums that you've done a
Speaker 2: bit of, and I just wanted to ask if you enjoyed,
Speaker 2: was like the acting. You were in Girls and I'm
Speaker 2: not there.
Speaker 1: I was and I'm not there. And Olivia is a
Speaker 1: French director. Yeah, his film boarding Gate And I've been
Speaker 1: in a couple of guys friend's ant movies.
Speaker 2: And then you've been in a few things that just
Speaker 2: playing yourself as well. Yeah, those are the little yea.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, what's that like, because you're
Speaker 2: I was gonna actually ask if that's the easiest thing.
Speaker 2: You just have to turn up on set and be you,
Speaker 2: but that's hard.
Speaker 1: Well, we did Gossip Girl. I think that was the
Speaker 1: only time, right, Okay, yeah, I mean that was It
Speaker 1: just felt really ridiculous. I mean honestly, like we only
Speaker 1: did it because my daughter watched the show.
Speaker 2: Sure, okay, but oh.
Speaker 1: And there was gilmore Girls too, A lot of shows
Speaker 1: with the name of Girls in it. But I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I I find Yeah, I'm a little tired of
Speaker 1: doing cameos. Not think I want to do it anymore.
Speaker 1: But I would like to to me, it's all of
Speaker 1: a spatial experience in a way, and acting to me
Speaker 1: is moving through space and psychological stuff, which I like.
Speaker 2: Yesterday I also listened back to your podcast with Mark
Speaker 2: Maren on the W two from a couple of years back.
Speaker 2: I think when the book came out, and it reminded
Speaker 2: me on there, there's you mentioned on there that you
Speaker 2: growing up, you used to be an easy crier. You'd
Speaker 2: cry a cry a lot. Yeah, younger, How's is that
Speaker 2: something that's that's still around?
Speaker 1: I'm still like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel I'm getting more of a crier as
Speaker 2: I get older. I think I was quite to get
Speaker 2: through my twenties and teens and now it doesn't take
Speaker 2: much to make me want to cry.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it for you? What what sets you off? Is it? Films? Music?
Speaker 1: And like it can be a question, you know, like
Speaker 1: I just did this fifty question thing with the Guardian,
Speaker 1: you know, and I was like, well, you want me
Speaker 1: to tell you what my biggest regret is or you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like some heavy questions which
Speaker 1: I a lot of the really personal ones I kind.
Speaker 2: Of flew off way. Yeah, sure, Like.
Speaker 1: I am pretty susceptible in a certain way, to a cry,
Speaker 1: to influences.
Speaker 2: How about films. I'm not a crier at films weirdly,
Speaker 2: unless they're like documentaries or real life things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I definitely can be. I mean, honestly, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can be, even though I'm mad that it's making
Speaker 1: me cry or something. I hate manipulation.
Speaker 2: Have you seen any good films recently? What did you
Speaker 2: watch on the plane coming here?
Speaker 1: Oh? God, I watched what is it? Ferrari versus?
Speaker 2: For it? Oh yeah, we have a different name for
Speaker 2: that here.
Speaker 1: Okay, I actually liked it. I mean, seeing it on
Speaker 1: a small screen, it's the worst, but yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: had low expectations. But I mean I love both those actors.
Speaker 1: Christian Beal's amazing. And did I cry?
Speaker 2: It's worse when you're at altitude. I think, yeah, you're more susceptible.
Speaker 1: I think I didn't quite cry.
Speaker 2: Okay, good the Yeah, that's film's got a different name.
Speaker 2: We've got a different name here for it. So when
Speaker 2: I was winning the Oscars, I watched the Oscars and
Speaker 2: they kept saying Ford versus and is this the same film?
Speaker 2: As I can remember what we called it? Oh Laman
Speaker 2: I think it's quite okay. Yeah, have you seen Parasite yet?
Speaker 1: Yes? That was amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 1: To see his other films, which I hear kind of
Speaker 1: more oblik is it The Host or yes?
Speaker 2: The Host? And this one called Mother.
Speaker 1: But there are these Revenge ones are supposed to be amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Revenge series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought Parasite was just I didn't know it.
Speaker 2: Did you know anything about it going into it? I did.
Speaker 1: I knew it. I knew a little bit. Well, I
Speaker 1: just knew that it was a film about class, right,
Speaker 1: that's about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really, I knew nothing of it and I saw
Speaker 2: it in the cinema and then it just for anyone
Speaker 2: listening to this as I won't ruin it, but it
Speaker 2: just goes in a way that I just did not
Speaker 2: expect it to go, you know, like the way it escalates.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker 2: What you know, there's that moments in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that he achieved a certain tone was incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It just looks so unbelievably beautiful. Yeah, and incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Have you seen that documentary series called cheer Nelix?
Speaker 2: You know what I have because my wife.
Speaker 1: I think watching that, did you at the end.
Speaker 2: My wife is a really big fan of that, so
Speaker 2: I would see some of it. I've seen some of it.
Speaker 2: It's but I didn't realize. So if anyone listening that
Speaker 2: hasn't seen Cheers a Netflix on Netflix with the Netflix show,
Speaker 2: it's a documentary about a cheerleader squad in Texas, right right,
Speaker 2: but they're not.
Speaker 1: It's like their gymnet. Yeah, it's almost like I had
Speaker 1: no idea. My idea of cheerleading was not that. No.
Speaker 2: I thought it was like that you see on like
Speaker 2: NFL or at basketball games. But actually, real cheerleaders have
Speaker 2: to retire at the age of like fifteen or something
Speaker 2: like really early, don't they in that show.
Speaker 1: I mean there is no They go through carl Is
Speaker 1: a college program, right college, and yeah, there isn't anything
Speaker 1: after that, really, yes, unless they become Olympic gymnasts or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's kind of brutal that they train, and they train
Speaker 2: them so hard, so hard, like they're like breaking spraining
Speaker 2: ankles and breaking noses and falling off pyramids. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: show is really quite fascinat Yeah, world totally.
Speaker 1: I mean I was watching it while I was rehearsing
Speaker 1: with this new band that I just never played with before.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing, and I was like,
Speaker 1: they can do that, Pyramid, I can do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great inspirational TV. Yeah yeah. And then they
Speaker 2: get to the end of their college career and I.
Speaker 1: Just that's it's just go.
Speaker 2: And do something else with you all.
Speaker 1: And a lot of them came from just these really
Speaker 1: screwed up background and said, yeah, they kind of it
Speaker 1: saved them and galvanized their life in a certain way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nuts. I suppose this fits in actually with
Speaker 2: you know, everybody thinking how wild it is that you've
Speaker 2: just made a solo album. Is it right that you
Speaker 2: first picked up an instrument when you were like twenty seven?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, which I mean I was in a band,
Speaker 1: was in this sort of garage noise band in college briefly, right,
Speaker 1: but you know that was kind of a just for
Speaker 1: an art class.
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, it's I think that's quite. That's really inspirational
Speaker 2: to hear that, because it feels like twenty seven. In
Speaker 2: the music industry, twenty seven is considered quite.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet that's kind of how old Patty Smith
Speaker 1: and Debbie Harry were when they started, right. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's just I think people's focus on age became younger
Speaker 1: and younger. But I honestly still don't think of myself
Speaker 1: as a musician. You know, I never learned to play conventionally,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I've sort of picked it up
Speaker 1: in the spirit of post punk. You know, do yourself
Speaker 1: in a downtown music scene, be inspired by no Wave
Speaker 1: and which were mostly bands started by artists, and you
Speaker 1: know it was completely expressionistic and not conventional.
Speaker 2: Did you have you had to kind of almost try
Speaker 2: to not learn convention.
Speaker 1: That's my technique. Yeah, it is a technice, certainly not
Speaker 1: getting too good or polished.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, there's those stories of Malcolm McLaren when
Speaker 2: he formed the Sex Pistols, getting angry at them for
Speaker 2: like practicing too much because they wanted to get better,
Speaker 2: and he was like, you're missing the point. Why would
Speaker 2: you want to be good? Right, that's not the point
Speaker 2: of this. We actually had viv Albertine on the podcast
Speaker 2: last year and she was She told me how she
Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily choose the life that she's had if she
Speaker 2: could go back, and she certainly would discourage her daughter
Speaker 2: from doing what she's done, and the point that she
Speaker 2: made was that it's so exhausting being a punk and
Speaker 2: being creative in the way that she's been creative throughout
Speaker 2: her life. She said, it's exhausting. It's a really uncomfortable
Speaker 2: was the word that she used. Does that resonate with
Speaker 2: you in any way, like just that that idea of
Speaker 2: being operating outside of the mainstream to such an extent
Speaker 2: and being continually creative.
Speaker 1: I mean not really, because I basically wanted to be
Speaker 1: an artist, which is sort of the same thing. I
Speaker 1: think it's you know, my mother said to me once,
Speaker 1: like she didn't give me much advice at all, but
Speaker 1: she said, you should learn a technique, which I'm not
Speaker 1: sure I did it. Yeah, but I understand that like
Speaker 1: to have something that because there's something about being in
Speaker 1: the public that you know, it's fame, it's weird and
Speaker 1: the way people appreciate what you do, and it can
Speaker 1: make you feel like an impostor because the value system
Speaker 1: is so askewed, and you know, like how do you
Speaker 1: equate the worth of what you do? You know, it's
Speaker 1: not like being a plumber where you can do really
Speaker 1: good work and see it, you know, but I you
Speaker 1: have learned something about performance, I think, And so that's
Speaker 1: a weird thing to say that's a technique, but it's
Speaker 1: and it's also within that it's like not being too
Speaker 1: polished or you know, for me, like that's what I
Speaker 1: relate to like a but I you know, I appreciate
Speaker 1: other people who are really good at it, but I
Speaker 1: don't relate to it myself. It is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable
Speaker 1: not knowing how you're gonna get your next set of
Speaker 1: dollar bills or you know whatever. It's kind of you know,
Speaker 1: financially unstable. And but I think, you know, and maybe
Speaker 1: my regret is is that I, ah maybe stayed too
Speaker 1: long in playing in a band like Sonic Youth. And
Speaker 1: I only did because continue to like the music and
Speaker 1: want to support it, but you know, and it's it
Speaker 1: becomes a machine that's hard to get out of. So
Speaker 1: basically I took the breakup of the marriage to do that.
Speaker 1: But I always felt like I owed it to myself
Speaker 1: to really go back. And even though I had tried
Speaker 1: to maintain my pulse in art and and do things
Speaker 1: when I could, I owed it to myself to really
Speaker 1: you know, focus on that more.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you can imagine you would have
Speaker 2: done if it wasn't a life of art? What else
Speaker 2: would you what would you have done if you weren't
Speaker 2: doing this?
Speaker 1: You mean not working in film or anything else?
Speaker 2: Uh no, I'll give you that, you can accuse.
Speaker 1: I guess that would be it. Yeah, I did film,
Speaker 1: and I I think in college I made a.
Speaker 2: Film, right, Okay, what's that about?
Speaker 1: It was about It was a surrealist film. It was
Speaker 1: about Patty Hurst.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, I am talking of plumbers. I sometimes quite
Speaker 2: fantasize about being a plumber. It's not a great fantasy
Speaker 2: to have. But that thing that you mentioned of just
Speaker 2: knowing there's no subject activity to whether it's yeah, you
Speaker 2: go and you fix the sink. You have to fix
Speaker 2: the sink, and you fix the sink, right, and that's tick.
Speaker 2: You can tick that off as a done thing. And
Speaker 2: I think that's something that it sounds quite appealing. There
Speaker 2: might be plumbers listening to this who are bought sick
Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, but I under I can see what
Speaker 2: you mean by I think by like, oh, that would
Speaker 2: actually be quite a novel. Nice if you've not been
Speaker 2: doing that for your whole life that that's actually quiet.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying I don't mean to take
Speaker 1: away from plumbers. I mean I just think that doing
Speaker 1: something concrete, but actually, you know, water in leaks is
Speaker 1: also incredible mysterious as electricity to me. But yeah, just
Speaker 1: having something concrete to do, you know, whether you're a
Speaker 1: nurse or you know whatever, and you leave your job
Speaker 1: and you go home, and you go home. But honestly,
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't know what to do if I had
Speaker 1: nothing to think about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you find yourself just working constantly on things?
Speaker 1: Pretty much? Yeah?
Speaker 2: You kind of. Because you've got a studio at home.
Speaker 1: Do you have I have a studio outside of my home?
Speaker 2: Okay, like just you have to go to the studio.
Speaker 2: Yeah you have to go to this, Okay cool, But
Speaker 2: then when you get home, are you just are you
Speaker 2: good at just leaving that there and watching cheer?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure, I mean I don't go I'm not like
Speaker 1: an artist who goes my studio nine to five or anything.
Speaker 1: It just depends on the project. And I but I
Speaker 1: mean as like, not a conceptual artist. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's I like, to you know, it starts with an idea,
Speaker 1: so you can do that anywhere, or you can you know,
Speaker 1: write write things, or you know, anywhere and just kind
Speaker 1: of looking around and observing and just thinking taking things
Speaker 1: in And to me, that's kind of fun. You can
Speaker 1: do anywhere. I like, I admire poets because your life
Speaker 1: is just a constant. You know, you can do it
Speaker 1: anywhere and think about it.
Speaker 2: And yeah, poet has to be the most romantic of
Speaker 2: the arts.
Speaker 1: I would say, my daughter's become a really good part.
Speaker 2: Oh really, Okay, great, it's kind of the forgotten art.
Speaker 2: A lot of people say, isn't it poetry?
Speaker 1: It's funny though, I think there are more living poets
Speaker 1: in there have ever been, right, Poetry has never been bigger.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's coming back in a big way. How did
Speaker 2: you enjoy the book writing? Did you Did you enjoy
Speaker 2: putting the book together?
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of one part torture. I mean
Speaker 1: some parts I loved writing about, and then other parts
Speaker 1: were hard to write about and it was kind of daunting.
Speaker 1: But I had an editor who's it was almost like
Speaker 1: getting an assignment, Okay, write more about this, you know,
Speaker 1: and something to nudge you along.
Speaker 2: So the bits that you didn't enjoy writing about for
Speaker 2: whatever reasons they were were there, ever, I'm guessing it's
Speaker 2: not an option to just be like, we're just not
Speaker 2: I'm just not going to write that. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to put that well.
Speaker 1: I mean the hardest thing actually to write about in
Speaker 1: a certain way was, well, one, how to integrate sonic
Speaker 1: youth into it, which is was such a big part
Speaker 1: of my life. But I didn't want to write a
Speaker 1: book about sonic youth. I'm sure some days someone will
Speaker 1: write a good book about sonic youth. And the other
Speaker 1: thing was how to how to talk about the art
Speaker 1: world and certain artists who are influential and you know,
Speaker 1: not knowing is this going to be boring because no
Speaker 1: one knows this is not a public figure, and it's
Speaker 1: a lot of abstract ideas that just really hard to
Speaker 1: put in a format that's kind of a popular format.
Speaker 1: You know, my mom writing that was the harness thing.
Speaker 1: And I had a book of essays that came out
Speaker 1: maybe the year before, and I wish that they could
Speaker 1: have just been put together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that's on the book front? Is
Speaker 2: because some people write, you know, three autobiographies. That book
Speaker 2: felt like it was all there and it doesn't need
Speaker 2: to be anymore. But how do you how do you
Speaker 2: feel about it? Would you write not necessarily another autography
Speaker 2: or an extended one, but is there any other writing
Speaker 2: that you particularly want to do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have I have to get back
Speaker 1: to it. But there is some something I started writing
Speaker 1: that was more. It kind of came out of something
Speaker 1: I wrote for an art show and it was really
Speaker 1: just an excuse to have a structure to write in,
Speaker 1: and I've sort of extended it. I would like to
Speaker 1: finish it and just put it out more as like
Speaker 1: an art book or something and not promoted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like a novel letter.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Nice. Well, the book's amazing. The new record is
Speaker 2: not that new anymore, is it. It's an old record.
Speaker 2: It probably feels weird to still be like talking about
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. But they're both great. So thanks
Speaker 2: for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks, Lash, It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Anyway. Good night,