1
00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:17,610
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:24,170 --> 00:00:29,050
Speaker 2: This show is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

3
00:00:29,210 --> 00:00:33,650
Speaker 2: or treatment. It is for informational purposes. Please consult your

4
00:00:33,690 --> 00:00:36,290
Speaker 2: healthcare professional with any medical questions.

5
00:00:40,130 --> 00:00:43,250
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Decoding Women's Health. I'm doctor Elizabeth Pointer.

6
00:00:44,210 --> 00:00:48,370
Speaker 1: Psychedelics come with all sorts of associations and preconceived notions

7
00:00:48,970 --> 00:00:53,890
Speaker 1: tech bros, Wild partying, Burning Man, and the nineteen seventies.

8
00:00:54,570 --> 00:00:57,730
Speaker 1: But in recent years more research has emerged about the

9
00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:02,010
Speaker 1: potential for psychedelics and clinical settings, and finally there are

10
00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:07,250
Speaker 1: researchers studying these drugs with a specific audience in mind women.

11
00:01:07,970 --> 00:01:12,050
Speaker 3: We really had never tried to properly understand women's biology

12
00:01:12,250 --> 00:01:16,770
Speaker 3: in the context of many things, really, but especially in

13
00:01:16,890 --> 00:01:21,170
Speaker 3: areas like mental health and how we think about treating them,

14
00:01:21,570 --> 00:01:23,810
Speaker 3: and particularly as we came into this new world of

15
00:01:23,810 --> 00:01:27,250
Speaker 3: psychedelics and psychedelic therapy. And for me, that was an

16
00:01:27,250 --> 00:01:30,810
Speaker 3: incredibly start, considering that so many of the mechanisms that

17
00:01:30,810 --> 00:01:35,130
Speaker 3: psychedelics work by have so much synergy with the mechanisms

18
00:01:35,130 --> 00:01:36,250
Speaker 3: of female biology.

19
00:01:37,610 --> 00:01:42,050
Speaker 1: That's doctor Grace Blessed Hopley. She's a neuroscientist and research

20
00:01:42,050 --> 00:01:46,930
Speaker 1: associate at King's College, London, She's also the chief scientific

21
00:01:47,010 --> 00:01:50,330
Speaker 1: officer at a biotech company in the UK focused on

22
00:01:50,370 --> 00:01:55,810
Speaker 1: psychiatric and neurologic disorders, and the founder of Hisstelica, an

23
00:01:55,970 --> 00:02:01,290
Speaker 1: organization that focuses on psychedelics and female biology. Much of

24
00:02:01,330 --> 00:02:05,610
Speaker 1: her academic research focused on cannabinoids, but her background as

25
00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,130
Speaker 1: an Army reserve officer and her work with military veterans

26
00:02:09,650 --> 00:02:13,929
Speaker 1: led her to the field of psychedelics research. She believes

27
00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:17,330
Speaker 1: that psychedelics can be powerful tools for helping people living

28
00:02:17,329 --> 00:02:21,890
Speaker 1: with depression and post traumatic stress disorder, which is commonly

29
00:02:21,929 --> 00:02:26,409
Speaker 1: referred to as PTSD, and she's seen firsthand how these

30
00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:29,410
Speaker 1: treatments can be helpful for people from all different walks

31
00:02:29,410 --> 00:02:32,890
Speaker 1: of life in dealing with mental and physical health challenges.

32
00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:39,489
Speaker 1: How did you first get interested in the therapeutic benefits

33
00:02:39,530 --> 00:02:40,570
Speaker 1: of psychedelics.

34
00:02:40,810 --> 00:02:43,330
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think there has been the knowledge that

35
00:02:43,329 --> 00:02:47,730
Speaker 3: psychedelics can be useful for treating mental health conditions for millennia.

36
00:02:48,010 --> 00:02:50,770
Speaker 3: If we look into practices that have gone on in

37
00:02:50,769 --> 00:02:54,930
Speaker 3: the Amazon jungle, for instance, using substances like hyahuasca, it's

38
00:02:55,090 --> 00:02:58,090
Speaker 3: been very commonplace for a long time, but for me

39
00:02:58,730 --> 00:03:01,810
Speaker 3: it kind of was a little bit observational. Also in

40
00:03:01,889 --> 00:03:06,290
Speaker 3: terms of seeing substances that were perhaps being used in

41
00:03:06,329 --> 00:03:10,090
Speaker 3: a more of a recreational party scene and seeing the

42
00:03:10,169 --> 00:03:12,769
Speaker 3: changes that were coming about in those people, and that

43
00:03:12,889 --> 00:03:15,970
Speaker 3: really sparked a huge curiosity in me to try and.

44
00:03:16,049 --> 00:03:17,250
Speaker 4: Understand why that was.

45
00:03:17,450 --> 00:03:20,290
Speaker 3: And so once I got that opportunity to do the

46
00:03:20,329 --> 00:03:24,169
Speaker 3: work alongside particularly military vecterans with whom I was able

47
00:03:24,209 --> 00:03:27,930
Speaker 3: to understand quite the severity of the issues that they

48
00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:33,370
Speaker 3: often face and see that immediate and significant change in

49
00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:36,730
Speaker 3: mental health progress, then I really was particularly sole. But

50
00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:38,930
Speaker 3: you know, as any good scientists, I always want to

51
00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:41,369
Speaker 3: see the data. I always want to see the proof.

52
00:03:42,170 --> 00:03:44,570
Speaker 1: I wanted to have doctor Blessed Hopley on the show

53
00:03:44,650 --> 00:03:48,290
Speaker 1: because all of this research and interest and investment in

54
00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:53,530
Speaker 1: psychedelics has made this a very buzzy space. Many people

55
00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:58,369
Speaker 1: out there are curious about these drugs. Personally, I'm really

56
00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:00,850
Speaker 1: interested in what the latest research is showing us about

57
00:04:00,850 --> 00:04:05,010
Speaker 1: the potential for treatment options to help people overcome past

58
00:04:05,010 --> 00:04:09,890
Speaker 1: trauma or manage chronic pain. I'll admit I'm fascinated by

59
00:04:09,890 --> 00:04:12,850
Speaker 1: this space, but some of the terminology is quite new

60
00:04:12,890 --> 00:04:16,130
Speaker 1: to me. So I am doctor Blessed Hopley to walk

61
00:04:16,210 --> 00:04:19,529
Speaker 1: us through the basics. First, can you give us a

62
00:04:19,610 --> 00:04:23,170
Speaker 1: psychedelic one oh one kind of overview, like what are

63
00:04:23,210 --> 00:04:26,330
Speaker 1: psychedelic substances, what are they actually doing to our brain?

64
00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:30,730
Speaker 1: What is a psychedelic versus a hallucinogen? Just give us

65
00:04:30,730 --> 00:04:32,810
Speaker 1: a big broad one oh one.

66
00:04:33,289 --> 00:04:35,530
Speaker 3: Of course I would love to use so first of

67
00:04:35,529 --> 00:04:36,930
Speaker 3: all to say, you know, the difference between what we

68
00:04:37,010 --> 00:04:40,770
Speaker 3: might call a psychedelic or a hallucinogen, it's not super

69
00:04:41,330 --> 00:04:43,730
Speaker 3: well defined off when we might call a psychedelic and

70
00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:47,290
Speaker 3: hallucinogen interchangeably, it's more common that we would use the

71
00:04:47,289 --> 00:04:50,570
Speaker 3: word psychedelic now than hallucinogen, because there is you know,

72
00:04:50,650 --> 00:04:54,089
Speaker 3: more effects than just hallucination with these substances. You can

73
00:04:54,130 --> 00:04:57,330
Speaker 3: broadly break down psychedelics kind of into two categories, classical

74
00:04:57,330 --> 00:05:02,330
Speaker 3: psychedelics and non classical psychedelics. When we talk about classical psychedelics,

75
00:05:02,330 --> 00:05:07,130
Speaker 3: that's when we're talking about substances like psilocybin, lsd ayahuasca.

76
00:05:07,330 --> 00:05:11,130
Speaker 3: You know, DMT the main active component of yahuasca, And

77
00:05:11,170 --> 00:05:15,290
Speaker 3: these are all substances that primarily work by engaging our

78
00:05:15,330 --> 00:05:19,050
Speaker 3: serotonin system and engaging with a particular receptor in that

79
00:05:19,130 --> 00:05:20,130
Speaker 3: serotonergic system.

80
00:05:20,170 --> 00:05:21,930
Speaker 4: The five HT two a receptor.

81
00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:25,970
Speaker 3: Now they also bind with many other receptors and other

82
00:05:26,570 --> 00:05:29,370
Speaker 3: networks within our brain, but this is the primary network

83
00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:32,490
Speaker 3: they work through through the serotonergic system, and when they

84
00:05:32,529 --> 00:05:35,010
Speaker 3: have this activation at the system, that's when we get

85
00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:38,330
Speaker 3: the effects that we might associate with things like hallucinations,

86
00:05:38,330 --> 00:05:41,330
Speaker 3: for instance. And what we actually see is that our

87
00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:43,609
Speaker 3: brain is structured in a way that we sort of

88
00:05:43,610 --> 00:05:46,289
Speaker 3: have a control center which is in the middle, and

89
00:05:46,330 --> 00:05:48,610
Speaker 3: then we have sort of areas like our prefrontal cortex

90
00:05:49,210 --> 00:05:52,369
Speaker 3: and other parts which are more sort of gray matter

91
00:05:52,409 --> 00:05:55,850
Speaker 3: that get recruited in when they are required from the

92
00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:59,650
Speaker 3: control center, if you were. Now, when we take psychedelics,

93
00:05:59,650 --> 00:06:03,170
Speaker 3: what we see is that this control center is actually

94
00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:05,650
Speaker 3: no longer dictating the information that comes in, and we

95
00:06:05,690 --> 00:06:08,890
Speaker 3: actually see activation happening across the brain. So we see

96
00:06:09,050 --> 00:06:11,690
Speaker 3: a lot of sort of cross talk betweens of the

97
00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:15,650
Speaker 3: brain that might not always under normal situations be able

98
00:06:15,690 --> 00:06:17,849
Speaker 3: to communicate. And that's where we start to see the

99
00:06:17,849 --> 00:06:20,730
Speaker 3: effects in terms of how we're able to, you know,

100
00:06:20,810 --> 00:06:24,210
Speaker 3: go back and process certain memories that perhaps we wouldn't

101
00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:27,130
Speaker 3: be able to get at in previous times. We might

102
00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:30,330
Speaker 3: hear things or perceive things or see things, and we

103
00:06:30,450 --> 00:06:34,969
Speaker 3: have these very transformative experiences in terms of how we

104
00:06:35,050 --> 00:06:37,809
Speaker 3: feel while we're under the influence of the substance. Now

105
00:06:38,050 --> 00:06:40,770
Speaker 3: that's the psychedelic experience in itself, but there's actually so

106
00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,450
Speaker 3: much more that goes on. And as I said, you know,

107
00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:46,089
Speaker 3: they engage a number of different receptors in the brain,

108
00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:49,409
Speaker 3: and so beyond the kind of experiential part that we

109
00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:53,450
Speaker 3: have under psychedelics, we see biochemical changes that come about

110
00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:56,210
Speaker 3: after psychedelic use, and what we're talking about there is

111
00:06:56,690 --> 00:07:00,450
Speaker 3: essentially changes that happen on a cellular level that can

112
00:07:00,849 --> 00:07:04,569
Speaker 3: increase things like neuroplasticity, so the ability for the brain

113
00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:07,650
Speaker 3: brain to kind of grow and change and make new connections,

114
00:07:07,690 --> 00:07:09,930
Speaker 3: which is what we need in order to make new

115
00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:13,730
Speaker 3: memories or to form new thought patterns. And we also

116
00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:16,570
Speaker 3: see changes in things like neurogenesis, so actually you know,

117
00:07:16,610 --> 00:07:20,290
Speaker 3: starting to produce new proteins and new cells potentially even

118
00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:23,330
Speaker 3: within our brain. So there is this incredible kind of

119
00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:25,890
Speaker 3: after glow effect that goes on for depending on the

120
00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:29,730
Speaker 3: psychedelic you know, days weeks after. So that's largely what

121
00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:32,250
Speaker 3: we're talking about when we talk about classic psychedelics.

122
00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:33,850
Speaker 4: But as you're right. There are a number of.

123
00:07:33,890 --> 00:07:37,890
Speaker 3: Other things that substances that are very similar and what

124
00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:41,650
Speaker 3: we might call non classical psychedelics, and that includes things

125
00:07:41,650 --> 00:07:46,610
Speaker 3: like ketamine, MDMA, cannabis even and when we think about them,

126
00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:49,930
Speaker 3: they have quite different mechanisms. MDMA is probably the most

127
00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:52,930
Speaker 3: similar to classic psychedelics and that it also works through

128
00:07:52,930 --> 00:07:55,810
Speaker 3: the serotonergic system, but it doesn't work quite in the

129
00:07:55,890 --> 00:07:59,210
Speaker 3: same way, so we don't quite get the hallucinatory parts.

130
00:07:59,450 --> 00:08:01,890
Speaker 3: We'd often call that more of an en pathogen. So

131
00:08:01,970 --> 00:08:04,530
Speaker 3: often the feelings that we have on MDMA are more

132
00:08:04,570 --> 00:08:08,810
Speaker 3: associated to this reduction in fear and increased feeling of

133
00:08:09,050 --> 00:08:12,570
Speaker 3: connectedness perhaps with the people that we're with, and that's

134
00:08:12,570 --> 00:08:15,330
Speaker 3: why we use MDMA in a lot of psychedelical system

135
00:08:15,330 --> 00:08:19,450
Speaker 3: therapies that involve sort of talking about potentially traumatic incidences

136
00:08:19,490 --> 00:08:22,130
Speaker 3: that have happened, or in couples therapy for instance, where

137
00:08:22,130 --> 00:08:24,650
Speaker 3: they able to empathize with each other on a different level,

138
00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:28,770
Speaker 3: and it can be very beneficial there. Ketamin is a

139
00:08:28,850 --> 00:08:32,450
Speaker 3: drug that has some of the hallucinatory effects I suppose

140
00:08:32,570 --> 00:08:35,650
Speaker 3: of classic psychedelics, and a lot of the benefit people

141
00:08:35,930 --> 00:08:38,570
Speaker 3: get from ketamin can be about the experience in a

142
00:08:38,610 --> 00:08:42,010
Speaker 3: similar way that it is in classic psychedelics, but it

143
00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:44,490
Speaker 3: actually works in a very different way. And so though

144
00:08:44,490 --> 00:08:46,730
Speaker 3: it can be similar in how it can sometimes feel,

145
00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:49,850
Speaker 3: it is quite different mechanistically. And finally, cannabis is always

146
00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:53,050
Speaker 3: the huge argument is cannabis is psychedelic or not. I

147
00:08:53,050 --> 00:08:57,250
Speaker 3: think I've been persuaded it is. Why is that, I

148
00:08:57,290 --> 00:09:02,410
Speaker 3: think because the endocannabinoid system is very complicated in itself,

149
00:09:02,450 --> 00:09:05,770
Speaker 3: and that's the primary system within our brain by which

150
00:09:05,770 --> 00:09:08,410
Speaker 3: cannabis works, and it can have a number of these

151
00:09:08,410 --> 00:09:11,689
Speaker 3: sort of you know, multi system effects that can then

152
00:09:11,809 --> 00:09:15,370
Speaker 3: lead to having these experiences that can feel like a

153
00:09:15,370 --> 00:09:19,170
Speaker 3: psychedelic experience. And also, because we now know as well

154
00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:22,170
Speaker 3: just quite how many other neurosystems in the brain that

155
00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:26,330
Speaker 3: cannabis and cannabinoids can affect, so they are also having

156
00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:31,290
Speaker 3: this sort of multi level engagement with various different brain substrates,

157
00:09:31,290 --> 00:09:32,449
Speaker 3: I suppose, So so.

158
00:09:32,450 --> 00:09:35,290
Speaker 1: Fair to say that a psychedelic is kind of unlicks

159
00:09:35,290 --> 00:09:37,729
Speaker 1: the brain, so it can communicate in ways that are

160
00:09:37,730 --> 00:09:41,210
Speaker 1: typically suppressed. So it's taking the breaks off our brain

161
00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:43,449
Speaker 1: a little bit and allowing it just to expand and

162
00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:45,290
Speaker 1: have different communication networks.

163
00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:46,530
Speaker 4: Yeah.

164
00:09:46,569 --> 00:09:48,850
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you know, we have to really think of

165
00:09:48,890 --> 00:09:51,850
Speaker 3: our brain as you know, a very kind of fine

166
00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:55,530
Speaker 3: tuned machine and part of what it has to do.

167
00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:58,650
Speaker 3: You know, we often always associate more with better, but

168
00:09:58,970 --> 00:10:01,450
Speaker 3: actually more is not always the most efficient, and so

169
00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:05,570
Speaker 3: our brains are evolved and adapted to only really recruit

170
00:10:05,610 --> 00:10:07,410
Speaker 3: the parts that it needs in order to.

171
00:10:07,370 --> 00:10:08,250
Speaker 4: Complete the task.

172
00:10:08,850 --> 00:10:12,090
Speaker 3: Now, that's fine if the part of the brain that

173
00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:16,090
Speaker 3: is recruiting those other parts in is very plastic and

174
00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:19,689
Speaker 3: adaptive and has sort of good blueprints I suppose, with

175
00:10:19,770 --> 00:10:23,010
Speaker 3: which it is wanting to engage other parts of our brain.

176
00:10:23,050 --> 00:10:26,690
Speaker 3: But when we see things like depression, anxiety, and post

177
00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:31,329
Speaker 3: traumatic stress disorder, what we often see often built in

178
00:10:31,530 --> 00:10:36,410
Speaker 3: from very very foundational you know, early early childhood years

179
00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:39,290
Speaker 3: in some people, that this part of the brain can

180
00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:42,370
Speaker 3: start to become very rigid. I like to think of

181
00:10:42,410 --> 00:10:44,330
Speaker 3: it a little bit like if you think of a

182
00:10:44,450 --> 00:10:47,010
Speaker 3: small stream that comes to a beach and is going

183
00:10:47,050 --> 00:10:49,929
Speaker 3: into the ocean, and it just dives one very deep

184
00:10:49,970 --> 00:10:52,850
Speaker 3: groove within the sand, and when we take a psychedelic

185
00:10:52,929 --> 00:10:56,490
Speaker 3: a huge wave comes and washes over the beach, and

186
00:10:56,569 --> 00:10:59,170
Speaker 3: those deep grooves get kind of filled in a little

187
00:10:59,490 --> 00:11:02,170
Speaker 3: and they allow the water to now potentially take other

188
00:11:02,250 --> 00:11:04,850
Speaker 3: roots down to the sea. And that is sort of

189
00:11:04,850 --> 00:11:08,130
Speaker 3: what happens with the way that the structure of how

190
00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:10,770
Speaker 3: our brain communicates changes under a psychedelic.

191
00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:14,170
Speaker 1: So in terms of the impact the change and the

192
00:11:14,210 --> 00:11:17,130
Speaker 1: impact of the change, how rapidly does one see that,

193
00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:19,770
Speaker 1: Do you use a psychedelic and then three days later

194
00:11:19,929 --> 00:11:22,810
Speaker 1: you feel more empathy and more at peace with the world,

195
00:11:22,970 --> 00:11:25,490
Speaker 1: Or how long does it take for these changes to

196
00:11:25,569 --> 00:11:28,290
Speaker 1: really impact how you feel or how you look at

197
00:11:28,290 --> 00:11:30,530
Speaker 1: the world, And then how long do they last for.

198
00:11:31,450 --> 00:11:34,689
Speaker 3: It can really be very dependent on people's experience and

199
00:11:34,770 --> 00:11:37,490
Speaker 3: what they uncover, because sometimes as well, we go and

200
00:11:37,610 --> 00:11:40,809
Speaker 3: we take these substances and what they are essentially are

201
00:11:40,850 --> 00:11:41,490
Speaker 3: they are just.

202
00:11:41,490 --> 00:11:43,370
Speaker 4: Catalysts to our own psyche right.

203
00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:47,170
Speaker 3: They're not really bringing anything new, They're just unlocking doors

204
00:11:47,210 --> 00:11:49,050
Speaker 3: that we are able to then access things that are

205
00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:52,290
Speaker 3: already there. And so if you go with a problem

206
00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:54,929
Speaker 3: that maybe you don't have any oversight of and you

207
00:11:55,010 --> 00:11:57,730
Speaker 3: instantly are able to sort of see it and realize it, well,

208
00:11:58,650 --> 00:11:59,970
Speaker 3: are you instantly then better?

209
00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:00,330
Speaker 4: Well?

210
00:12:00,490 --> 00:12:03,370
Speaker 3: Maybe probably not, because you probably have to now integrate

211
00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:06,729
Speaker 3: that into your life and understand what it means and

212
00:12:06,809 --> 00:12:09,209
Speaker 3: change you know the behaviors in your day to day

213
00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:12,850
Speaker 3: living that allow you to become happier and healthier and

214
00:12:12,890 --> 00:12:14,690
Speaker 3: you know, more connected and all the things that we

215
00:12:14,770 --> 00:12:18,610
Speaker 3: know that are possible. So it isn't quite a case

216
00:12:18,850 --> 00:12:21,450
Speaker 3: of you will take it and then suddenly feel better.

217
00:12:22,610 --> 00:12:23,490
Speaker 4: Often people do.

218
00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:27,970
Speaker 3: Often people have a really pleasant time in the experience,

219
00:12:28,410 --> 00:12:33,090
Speaker 3: but sometimes as well, people do realize very deep and

220
00:12:33,130 --> 00:12:37,810
Speaker 3: potentially hidden aspects of themselves, and that takes time to integrate.

221
00:12:38,010 --> 00:12:40,089
Speaker 3: And so I like to think that that there are

222
00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:43,330
Speaker 3: catalysts to getting better forever, as opposed to you will

223
00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:45,650
Speaker 3: take it and then suddenly you will be healed.

224
00:12:46,050 --> 00:12:48,450
Speaker 4: But if we look at what's happening.

225
00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:52,130
Speaker 3: In clinical trials, if we look at the amount of

226
00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:55,410
Speaker 3: people who've got treatment resistant depressions, for instance, who have

227
00:12:55,530 --> 00:13:00,290
Speaker 3: had significant clinical improvement in their condition, we definitely are

228
00:13:00,330 --> 00:13:03,170
Speaker 3: able to do that. And that is you know, normally,

229
00:13:03,530 --> 00:13:06,290
Speaker 3: within you know, a month or so of having the

230
00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:10,090
Speaker 3: treatment that they would do those follow up assessments. Now,

231
00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:13,170
Speaker 3: in terms of the long longevity of it, again, like

232
00:13:13,210 --> 00:13:15,730
Speaker 3: I say, how much you integrate this into your life.

233
00:13:16,050 --> 00:13:18,370
Speaker 3: You can take a psychedelic and feel amazing and be

234
00:13:18,569 --> 00:13:21,490
Speaker 3: dancing around having the most wonderful time. But if you

235
00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:26,210
Speaker 3: don't do anything about what you potentially are learning about

236
00:13:26,290 --> 00:13:29,290
Speaker 3: yourself during this experience, and you just carry on all

237
00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:32,490
Speaker 3: of the same practices in two three four weeks time,

238
00:13:32,730 --> 00:13:34,809
Speaker 3: you'll feel exactly the same as you did before you

239
00:13:34,850 --> 00:13:37,370
Speaker 3: took the psychedelic and the same again if you ever

240
00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:40,650
Speaker 3: do it in a very therapeutic way. And we do

241
00:13:40,809 --> 00:13:43,730
Speaker 3: see this within these clinical trials. Now we're starting to

242
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:47,170
Speaker 3: get follow ups that are six months a year down

243
00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:47,650
Speaker 3: the line.

244
00:13:48,730 --> 00:13:50,770
Speaker 4: There's still a very good, meaningful.

245
00:13:50,370 --> 00:13:52,969
Speaker 3: Benefit to a majority of people who've been in the trial,

246
00:13:53,050 --> 00:13:57,209
Speaker 3: but people do start to regress back towards the baseline,

247
00:13:57,569 --> 00:13:59,329
Speaker 3: and so you know, it's not this sort of one

248
00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:02,610
Speaker 3: and done that perhaps we'd originally thought with psychedelics, and

249
00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:04,010
Speaker 3: maybe you can just take it once and then you

250
00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:06,530
Speaker 3: work at all your problems and then you never have

251
00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:09,210
Speaker 3: to take it again. It's not really that, it's sort off.

252
00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:11,890
Speaker 3: You take it and then you kind of stops the

253
00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:15,450
Speaker 3: journey that you do need to pay attention to in

254
00:14:15,569 --> 00:14:18,089
Speaker 3: order to maintain getting benefit in the long run.

255
00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:23,370
Speaker 1: Coming up, we discuss the potential uses of psychedelics specifically

256
00:14:23,410 --> 00:14:26,890
Speaker 1: tailored for women, and how these drugs may interact with

257
00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:40,810
Speaker 1: our hormones more in just a moment. Whenever a new

258
00:14:40,850 --> 00:14:44,650
Speaker 1: study is published on psychedelic assisted therapies, I find myself

259
00:14:44,730 --> 00:14:48,450
Speaker 1: drawn to it. Typically, this type of treatment is taking

260
00:14:48,490 --> 00:14:53,290
Speaker 1: place in a controlled clinical setting where trained therapist or

261
00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:57,570
Speaker 1: clinical staff are involved before, during, and after the drug

262
00:14:57,610 --> 00:15:01,530
Speaker 1: is administered, and training facilitators are part of the process,

263
00:15:02,090 --> 00:15:07,450
Speaker 1: helping participants prepare beforehand, staying with them during the experience,

264
00:15:07,730 --> 00:15:13,290
Speaker 1: and guiding integration sessions afterward. The idea is that the

265
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:18,170
Speaker 1: drug alone isn't the treatment, it's actually the combination of

266
00:15:18,210 --> 00:15:22,330
Speaker 1: the substance with the structured psychological support. I wanted to

267
00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:25,770
Speaker 1: hear from doctor Bless Hapley about what conditions these types

268
00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:31,410
Speaker 1: of therapies may be most effective for. So what types

269
00:15:31,450 --> 00:15:35,610
Speaker 1: of conditions would midlife women women look for in terms

270
00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:38,410
Speaker 1: of using a psychedelic The.

271
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:41,290
Speaker 3: List goes on and on. Right in oncology, there is

272
00:15:41,290 --> 00:15:44,570
Speaker 3: some incredible work. There's some amazing work going on in

273
00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:48,530
Speaker 3: neurodegenerative disorders, and obviously we know women are so much

274
00:15:48,570 --> 00:15:51,890
Speaker 3: more prevalent to developing neurodegenerative disorders later in life. So

275
00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:55,170
Speaker 3: I think that work is still in its infancy, but

276
00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:58,130
Speaker 3: is extremely promising. So there's a long long list of

277
00:15:58,170 --> 00:16:00,130
Speaker 3: things that they can be useful, but the primary thing

278
00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:02,810
Speaker 3: with which they are being investigated for at the moment

279
00:16:02,890 --> 00:16:06,970
Speaker 3: are largely mental health conditions and primarily depressive conditions, so

280
00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:10,410
Speaker 3: things like treatment resistant depression or major depressive disorders.

281
00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:12,370
Speaker 4: So interesting, but yeah, very interesting.

282
00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:15,810
Speaker 3: But I think, particularly for women, I think there is

283
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:19,850
Speaker 3: this amazing opportunity to explore how psychedelics could be useful

284
00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:24,730
Speaker 3: for pre menstrual conditions. I've been thinking particularly around PMDD

285
00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:29,010
Speaker 3: pre mensional dysphoric disorder, which is a pre mental disorder

286
00:16:29,010 --> 00:16:32,570
Speaker 3: that is a very severe form of PMS. Essentially it

287
00:16:32,650 --> 00:16:35,250
Speaker 3: affects up to eight percent of women and really is

288
00:16:36,010 --> 00:16:39,330
Speaker 3: a very very marked change in their mood and behavior

289
00:16:39,650 --> 00:16:42,650
Speaker 3: around the final week, sometimes even as long as the

290
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:45,010
Speaker 3: whole Luther your face, so final two weeks of their

291
00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:47,050
Speaker 3: mental cycle. But one of the things that we do

292
00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:50,570
Speaker 3: know about this condition, unfortunately it is highly associated with

293
00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:54,570
Speaker 3: previous life traumas. We also know that PMDD seems to

294
00:16:54,570 --> 00:16:58,210
Speaker 3: be associated with changes in sensitivity of things like our

295
00:16:58,250 --> 00:17:00,890
Speaker 3: progesterone receptors, and that could be a lot to do

296
00:17:00,930 --> 00:17:03,570
Speaker 3: with why women feel like like this and potentially to

297
00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:06,330
Speaker 3: do with their stress responses and their HPA access, and

298
00:17:06,370 --> 00:17:08,970
Speaker 3: these are all things that we are starting to think

299
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:12,570
Speaker 3: that psychedelics could interact with with HPA axis.

300
00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:14,970
Speaker 1: Could you just define for our listeners what the HPA

301
00:17:15,090 --> 00:17:17,130
Speaker 1: access is. I know what it is, but I don't.

302
00:17:17,170 --> 00:17:18,330
Speaker 1: Lot of people probably don't.

303
00:17:18,609 --> 00:17:23,410
Speaker 3: Yeah, the hypothermic pituitary access is essentially a feedback loop

304
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:26,970
Speaker 3: within our bodies that involves a couple of structures within

305
00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:34,210
Speaker 3: our brains, and it's primarily the system that dictates our

306
00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:36,810
Speaker 3: coursol and our cord sole release, and so our kind

307
00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:37,730
Speaker 3: of stress response.

308
00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:39,330
Speaker 4: Now cors soil is.

309
00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:41,170
Speaker 3: Needed because if we didn't have it, we would struggle

310
00:17:41,170 --> 00:17:43,330
Speaker 3: to get ourselves out of bed in the morning, and

311
00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:46,610
Speaker 3: so we have a small spike every every morning. It's

312
00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:48,570
Speaker 3: a kind of waking response. But we also have a

313
00:17:48,570 --> 00:17:52,050
Speaker 3: spike when we have any stresses that come in our lives,

314
00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:55,209
Speaker 3: and when we have repeated stresses or chronic stresses that

315
00:17:55,290 --> 00:17:57,729
Speaker 3: are not tigers but in fact a never ending email

316
00:17:57,850 --> 00:18:01,250
Speaker 3: chain or something, then we can start to get dysregulation

317
00:18:01,490 --> 00:18:04,930
Speaker 3: in that feedback system, and that's when we start to see,

318
00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:08,850
Speaker 3: you know, increases in things like anxiety disorders, insomnia particularly,

319
00:18:09,609 --> 00:18:14,010
Speaker 3: and it's HPA access. It is the conductor to the orchestra,

320
00:18:14,129 --> 00:18:18,810
Speaker 3: if you like, of dictating when we start releasing different

321
00:18:18,850 --> 00:18:21,370
Speaker 3: hormones at different parts of our mental cycles. So if

322
00:18:21,410 --> 00:18:25,649
Speaker 3: it becomes dysregulated through stress dysregulation, but when we do

323
00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:28,969
Speaker 3: start to see people having issues with prematural symptoms and

324
00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:32,169
Speaker 3: potentially changes in their mental cycle length or even their fertility.

325
00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:38,010
Speaker 3: Maybe so knowing that psychedelics potentially can alleviate some of

326
00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:41,850
Speaker 3: this dysregulation in the system could be very useful for women.

327
00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:45,609
Speaker 3: But we need to investigate and understand that, I think

328
00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:47,770
Speaker 3: in a way that we've not been very used to doing.

329
00:18:48,170 --> 00:18:51,490
Speaker 1: How about the use of psychedelics for chronic pelvic pain,

330
00:18:51,609 --> 00:18:56,570
Speaker 1: pulvic floor dysfunction, women with endometriosis who suffer from terribly

331
00:18:57,410 --> 00:18:59,889
Speaker 1: Any work going on in that area in terms of

332
00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:01,810
Speaker 1: women's health specifically.

333
00:19:01,770 --> 00:19:04,970
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I even myself have been doing some work

334
00:19:05,010 --> 00:19:07,250
Speaker 3: in to this around the idea of chronic pelvit pain

335
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:11,010
Speaker 3: and women. So things like endometriosis or volverdina for instance.

336
00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:14,369
Speaker 3: Sometimes we forget that there are two sides to pain.

337
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:16,450
Speaker 3: There's the thing that is causing the pain and there's

338
00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:18,810
Speaker 3: the thing that is perceiving the pain, and if the

339
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:22,090
Speaker 3: thing that is perceiving the pain, I er brains has

340
00:19:22,170 --> 00:19:27,330
Speaker 3: gotten stuck on thinking pain is expected in those rigid

341
00:19:27,369 --> 00:19:29,850
Speaker 3: ways that I talked about about earlier that we sometimes

342
00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:32,889
Speaker 3: get in these control centers of our brain, then we

343
00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:35,770
Speaker 3: are expecting to feel pain. And when we're expecting to

344
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:38,810
Speaker 3: feel pain, any pain that we do then feel, we

345
00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:42,090
Speaker 3: will feel in a more intense way. So by being

346
00:19:42,129 --> 00:19:44,929
Speaker 3: able to potentially change some of those pathways within the

347
00:19:44,930 --> 00:19:47,209
Speaker 3: brain around pain perception, and some of the work we

348
00:19:47,210 --> 00:19:49,369
Speaker 3: did in some military actions with chronic pain kind of

349
00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:53,010
Speaker 3: showed this that perhaps although the pain in the actual

350
00:19:53,050 --> 00:19:58,770
Speaker 3: limb itself, the aggrogreic gating factord not change their perception

351
00:19:58,850 --> 00:20:00,729
Speaker 3: of the pain, and their relationship with the pain had

352
00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:03,090
Speaker 3: changed as such that they no longer felt like they

353
00:20:03,129 --> 00:20:04,649
Speaker 3: were in as much chronic pain or they were no

354
00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:07,050
Speaker 3: longer bothered by it as much as they were previously.

355
00:20:07,129 --> 00:20:09,850
Speaker 3: So I think there is a huge potential for women

356
00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:13,810
Speaker 3: in this area. And also I think there's something about

357
00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:18,770
Speaker 3: psychedelics that really allow us to kind of include things

358
00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:21,649
Speaker 3: like embodiment practices where we can really start to actually

359
00:20:22,369 --> 00:20:26,050
Speaker 3: connect our wonderful you know, all controlling brains, less them

360
00:20:26,369 --> 00:20:28,889
Speaker 3: to our bodies, which actually have a lot more input,

361
00:20:28,930 --> 00:20:31,249
Speaker 3: I think than we often give them credit for. And

362
00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:35,090
Speaker 3: we know that within women particularly, we often do kind

363
00:20:35,129 --> 00:20:37,650
Speaker 3: of dissociate away from our bodies, particularly when we've had

364
00:20:37,930 --> 00:20:40,730
Speaker 3: a lot of unexplained chronic pelvic pains that maybe we've

365
00:20:40,770 --> 00:20:42,209
Speaker 3: not been you.

366
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:44,290
Speaker 4: Know, listened to properly in our healthcare systems.

367
00:20:45,090 --> 00:20:48,570
Speaker 3: And so having the ability to also connect with our

368
00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:52,409
Speaker 3: bodies and think about how movement practices can be used

369
00:20:52,490 --> 00:20:55,530
Speaker 3: in collaboration with psychedelics or you know, as a kind

370
00:20:55,570 --> 00:21:00,810
Speaker 3: of mindfulness practice could also be very very useful for these, yeah,

371
00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:02,050
Speaker 3: particular conditions.

372
00:21:02,490 --> 00:21:05,169
Speaker 1: So a lot of the midlife women have issues with

373
00:21:05,290 --> 00:21:10,010
Speaker 1: sleep insomnia that sometimes aren't even corrected with proper hormonal management,

374
00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:16,410
Speaker 1: application of psychedelic treatments or uses with chronic sleep issues

375
00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:17,810
Speaker 1: and insomnia issues.

376
00:21:17,970 --> 00:21:20,449
Speaker 4: Yeah, and insomnia is a really interesting one because there

377
00:21:20,490 --> 00:21:20,850
Speaker 4: can be.

378
00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:24,650
Speaker 3: So many reasons why, right why we are having insomnia problems.

379
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:27,810
Speaker 3: One of the common ones and women can be dysregulation

380
00:21:27,890 --> 00:21:31,370
Speaker 3: of quartsole released and sometimes we're very stressed, we're releasing

381
00:21:31,369 --> 00:21:33,570
Speaker 3: cortal at the wrong time, and then it's difficult for

382
00:21:33,650 --> 00:21:36,889
Speaker 3: us to be asleep when that is happening. You know,

383
00:21:36,930 --> 00:21:39,730
Speaker 3: that's very closely tied with anxiety, which is one of

384
00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:43,610
Speaker 3: the main drivers for insomnia, and we know that psychedelics

385
00:21:43,609 --> 00:21:48,210
Speaker 3: improve anxiety. And you know, the final women's specific kind

386
00:21:48,250 --> 00:21:51,369
Speaker 3: of midlife psychedelic use that I wanted to come to

387
00:21:52,170 --> 00:21:55,249
Speaker 3: is of course, that of perimenopause and menopause, and I

388
00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:59,930
Speaker 3: think sleep is obviously a huge, hugely associated symptom within

389
00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:03,330
Speaker 3: that field. And overall we've seen that the women who've

390
00:22:03,369 --> 00:22:05,970
Speaker 3: gone and taken psychedelics at retreats have reported to us

391
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:10,050
Speaker 3: a vast improvement in a large range of menopause symptoms,

392
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:13,050
Speaker 3: including this, and the reasons for that I think could

393
00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:14,850
Speaker 3: be manifold.

394
00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:16,650
Speaker 4: With estrogen.

395
00:22:16,690 --> 00:22:19,530
Speaker 3: We also know that it highly affects the serotonergic system,

396
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:24,929
Speaker 3: increases the amount of serotonin serotonin network activation, and it

397
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:28,330
Speaker 3: also has these hugely neuroprotective effects and effects that increase

398
00:22:28,369 --> 00:22:31,730
Speaker 3: things like neuroplasticity, and so when we lose those effects

399
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:36,530
Speaker 3: during perimenopause and menopause, there can be very much correlated

400
00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:42,570
Speaker 3: with the development of a number of issues with anxiety, sleep, depression,

401
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:46,530
Speaker 3: you know, even with things like cognitive performance.

402
00:22:46,890 --> 00:22:51,449
Speaker 4: But there's also this wonderful opportunity. I think that as.

403
00:22:51,330 --> 00:22:54,050
Speaker 3: Women going through perimenopause and menopause, there's a lot to

404
00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:59,610
Speaker 3: rationalize with yourself. Right, You're going through a monumental change

405
00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:05,530
Speaker 3: in your life stage and kind of potentially how you identify,

406
00:23:06,010 --> 00:23:09,690
Speaker 3: and so taking psychedelics at this time has often been

407
00:23:09,770 --> 00:23:13,409
Speaker 3: kind of reported as extremely useful to help women to

408
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:17,490
Speaker 3: process that change and to kind of accept often that

409
00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:21,369
Speaker 3: they are now moving into postmenopausal phase. And so we

410
00:23:21,369 --> 00:23:24,090
Speaker 3: don't always need to think about looking after ourselves on

411
00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:26,970
Speaker 3: just biological and mechanistic level. We have to think about

412
00:23:27,010 --> 00:23:30,610
Speaker 3: looking after ourselves on a spiritual level, and psychedelics are

413
00:23:30,850 --> 00:23:31,409
Speaker 3: very good for that.

414
00:23:31,930 --> 00:23:37,570
Speaker 1: Is there any intersection between how estrogen affects the impact

415
00:23:37,609 --> 00:23:40,090
Speaker 1: of a psychedelic on a female brain in terms of

416
00:23:40,129 --> 00:23:42,330
Speaker 1: should we be using if we are going to use

417
00:23:42,369 --> 00:23:44,649
Speaker 1: a psychedelic to be used in a ludial phase, the

418
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:50,050
Speaker 1: follicular phase perimenopause versus menopause, do you see different reactions

419
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:51,730
Speaker 1: any correlation there?

420
00:23:52,129 --> 00:23:54,650
Speaker 3: Well, this is what I really am on a mission

421
00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:57,410
Speaker 3: to find out, and we are slowly starting to gather

422
00:23:57,450 --> 00:24:00,369
Speaker 3: bits of data and even develop the tools so we

423
00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:04,290
Speaker 3: can even take the measurement. But just by theory, one

424
00:24:04,290 --> 00:24:06,530
Speaker 3: would assume if we've got higher levels to be stood

425
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:10,530
Speaker 3: in them, we've got a more reactive soonergic system, therefore

426
00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:14,210
Speaker 3: need less of a psychedelic to achieve the same effect.

427
00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:17,609
Speaker 3: Now do we know that to be definitely true In

428
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:21,490
Speaker 3: terms of giving women psychedelics at different estrogen phases and

429
00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:24,330
Speaker 3: seeing if it changed their effect, Well, we haven't been

430
00:24:24,369 --> 00:24:26,369
Speaker 3: able to do that yet, and we hope that we will,

431
00:24:26,890 --> 00:24:29,850
Speaker 3: but it does make sense mechanistically that there is going

432
00:24:29,890 --> 00:24:32,330
Speaker 3: to be some kind of drug drug interaction, if you will,

433
00:24:32,369 --> 00:24:36,010
Speaker 3: between estrogen and psychedelics. But for me, one of the

434
00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:40,490
Speaker 3: most important aspects in terms of hormonal influence and psychedelics

435
00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:43,649
Speaker 3: that should be taken into account is that of the

436
00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:49,090
Speaker 3: effect of progesterone. And when we see progesterone dropping very

437
00:24:49,090 --> 00:24:51,370
Speaker 3: suddenly at the end of our mental cycle, we see

438
00:24:51,369 --> 00:24:55,450
Speaker 3: this huge change in what is actually an anziolytic effect

439
00:24:55,530 --> 00:24:57,810
Speaker 3: that progesterone is giving us kind of chills es out.

440
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:01,210
Speaker 3: It's similar mechanism to alcohol, and so when we see

441
00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:04,490
Speaker 3: this level drop dramatically at the end of our mental cycle,

442
00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:07,570
Speaker 3: that's when we see huge increases in things like intrusive

443
00:25:07,609 --> 00:25:11,169
Speaker 3: thought patterns and also you know, higher dysregulation with our

444
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:16,649
Speaker 3: dopaminagic systems. So all of these things increase the likelihood

445
00:25:16,730 --> 00:25:19,609
Speaker 3: that our mindset it's going to be such that we

446
00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:23,330
Speaker 3: are particularly anxious. Maybe we are having physical effects, you know,

447
00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:26,450
Speaker 3: breast tenderness or pain, and if we gave a psychedelic,

448
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:31,090
Speaker 3: then they are internal amplifiers. If you feel terrible and

449
00:25:31,129 --> 00:25:33,929
Speaker 3: you take a psychedelic, there's a good chance you can

450
00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:35,290
Speaker 3: amplify that feeling.

451
00:25:35,530 --> 00:25:38,850
Speaker 4: So for me, this effect of how changes.

452
00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:41,410
Speaker 3: In hormones in women during the mental cycle effect their

453
00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:46,410
Speaker 3: mood and their emotional processing. If it is severe, then

454
00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:49,129
Speaker 3: we should not try and use high dose to psychedelics

455
00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:49,929
Speaker 3: during that time.

456
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:54,010
Speaker 1: I love the reminder that pain isn't just physical, it's

457
00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:57,810
Speaker 1: also mental, and that goes from major shifts like menopause too.

458
00:25:58,570 --> 00:26:01,530
Speaker 1: It's so interesting to think about the ways that psychedelics

459
00:26:01,609 --> 00:26:05,609
Speaker 1: might help with this emotional journey. After the break, doctor

460
00:26:05,609 --> 00:26:07,889
Speaker 1: bless Happy and I talk about what's next in the

461
00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:11,409
Speaker 1: field of psychedelic research, and we discussed some tips for

462
00:26:11,450 --> 00:26:23,490
Speaker 1: people looking into options in the space Welcome back. So

463
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:26,369
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about the research that's happening and

464
00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:30,010
Speaker 1: what we're learning about how these drug assisted therapies may

465
00:26:30,050 --> 00:26:33,249
Speaker 1: be useful to clinicians who are operating in safe and

466
00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:37,290
Speaker 1: controlled settings. I was also curious to hear more about

467
00:26:37,290 --> 00:26:41,410
Speaker 1: the world outside of that setting. To be clear, I'm

468
00:26:41,450 --> 00:26:44,370
Speaker 1: a doctor and an advocate for safe and controlled settings,

469
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:48,530
Speaker 1: but I'm not naive. I know that people are curious

470
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:52,290
Speaker 1: and they're very capable of finding ways to experience or

471
00:26:52,369 --> 00:26:57,330
Speaker 1: experiment with these drugs outside the doctor's office, oftentimes at

472
00:26:57,369 --> 00:27:02,010
Speaker 1: retreats or with their friends. In addition to her research efforts,

473
00:27:02,369 --> 00:27:06,650
Speaker 1: doctor Grace Blessed Hopley is engaged in education and advocacy

474
00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:10,650
Speaker 1: around women's psychedelic retreats, So I had to ask her

475
00:27:10,690 --> 00:27:13,570
Speaker 1: about what those are like and if she has any

476
00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,490
Speaker 1: tips for women to keep them safe. But before we

477
00:27:16,609 --> 00:27:19,170
Speaker 1: get there, I wanted to hear more from doctor Blesh

478
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:23,330
Speaker 1: Hopley about why she founded Hystealica and what she hopes

479
00:27:23,369 --> 00:27:28,290
Speaker 1: her research, education and advocacy efforts yield in this space.

480
00:27:29,770 --> 00:27:33,929
Speaker 1: So you founded a company called Hystalica. Tell us about it.

481
00:27:34,129 --> 00:27:36,570
Speaker 1: Why did you start this company? What are you doing

482
00:27:36,810 --> 00:27:37,290
Speaker 1: with it?

483
00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:38,649
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely?

484
00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:44,129
Speaker 3: So, really is my babya and it's a nonprofit organization

485
00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:48,129
Speaker 3: that really does have this mission around understanding women and psychedelics,

486
00:27:48,129 --> 00:27:50,530
Speaker 3: and we're doing that in a number of different ways.

487
00:27:50,530 --> 00:27:54,050
Speaker 3: And first and foremost, it's important that we provide education,

488
00:27:54,290 --> 00:27:58,090
Speaker 3: and that's education for women about their own bodies. It's

489
00:27:58,210 --> 00:28:02,250
Speaker 3: education for clinicians who are going to be using psychedelics

490
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:05,250
Speaker 3: and researchers who are trying to think about the questions

491
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:07,850
Speaker 3: that they should be asking. So we've really tried to

492
00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:11,689
Speaker 3: make sure that everybody kind of what they need to

493
00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:13,010
Speaker 3: make informed decisions that they.

494
00:28:12,970 --> 00:28:13,890
Speaker 4: Might need to make now.

495
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:16,970
Speaker 3: But we also want to answer some of these primary

496
00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:19,609
Speaker 3: questions that we don't have good answers to, and so

497
00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:21,930
Speaker 3: for the last few years we've been conducted in research

498
00:28:22,369 --> 00:28:26,050
Speaker 3: alongside King Scotish London, where I am still a researcher,

499
00:28:26,530 --> 00:28:29,170
Speaker 3: asking women who've used psychedelics to share some of their

500
00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:31,730
Speaker 3: experience with us, and that's enabled us to start to

501
00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:34,090
Speaker 3: build a data set from which we can start to

502
00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:37,570
Speaker 3: tease a part some of potentially the answers to these

503
00:28:37,650 --> 00:28:40,410
Speaker 3: questions around when is it safe for women to take psychedelics?

504
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:42,050
Speaker 3: You know, what are the things that we need to

505
00:28:42,290 --> 00:28:44,610
Speaker 3: explore more and understand more.

506
00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:47,250
Speaker 4: And beyond that, what we try and do in Hystelica

507
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:48,010
Speaker 4: is to.

508
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:52,890
Speaker 3: Be an advocacy for this work and to highlight how

509
00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:55,610
Speaker 3: important it is and to highlight other women in the

510
00:28:55,650 --> 00:29:00,010
Speaker 3: space who are doing similar work, because it's not easy

511
00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:03,530
Speaker 3: out there being an academic, and sometimes it can be

512
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:07,610
Speaker 3: really difficult, you know, if you're trying to convince people

513
00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:09,770
Speaker 3: that it's important that we spend a lot of time

514
00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:11,770
Speaker 3: and a lot of money on something that hasn't really

515
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:12,530
Speaker 3: been given very.

516
00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:13,850
Speaker 4: Much respect before.

517
00:29:14,690 --> 00:29:17,570
Speaker 3: It's a huge, huge hole in terms of the all

518
00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:21,530
Speaker 3: of the previous biological knowledge that we have. It's largely

519
00:29:21,530 --> 00:29:25,250
Speaker 3: based on male models, male animals, you know, males, and

520
00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:28,250
Speaker 3: clinical trials, and so there's a huge amount that needs

521
00:29:28,290 --> 00:29:31,770
Speaker 3: to be unpicked and rediscovered. So it's important that for

522
00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:35,770
Speaker 3: me at Hystalica, we become a community for researchers and

523
00:29:35,810 --> 00:29:39,450
Speaker 3: for women who are interested in understanding themselves and understanding

524
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:40,930
Speaker 3: how psychedelics can help themselves.

525
00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:45,450
Speaker 1: Have you seen the perception of the use of psychedelics

526
00:29:45,450 --> 00:29:48,250
Speaker 1: and the acceptance of the use of psychedelics and the

527
00:29:48,290 --> 00:29:50,970
Speaker 1: state of the research has it you founded this company

528
00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:53,090
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, is have you seen a change

529
00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:55,330
Speaker 1: over the passport three year or four years?

530
00:29:55,410 --> 00:29:56,610
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah. Absolutely.

531
00:29:56,690 --> 00:29:58,810
Speaker 3: I remember when I first signed the company and I

532
00:29:58,850 --> 00:30:00,890
Speaker 3: was sort of try and sit there and explain to

533
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:03,130
Speaker 3: my mom and dad what I was doing over the

534
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:06,650
Speaker 3: Christmas dinner table, you know, And now my mom is

535
00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:11,290
Speaker 3: sort of sharing the Instagram posts with her friends. I love. Yeah,

536
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:14,810
Speaker 3: there's definitely a huge change, and I think a real

537
00:30:14,850 --> 00:30:19,010
Speaker 3: big change that is coming around in women. And I

538
00:30:19,090 --> 00:30:20,850
Speaker 3: think a lot of that comes around, like I said,

539
00:30:20,890 --> 00:30:24,130
Speaker 3: this idea of community. We often, in the lack of

540
00:30:24,170 --> 00:30:26,890
Speaker 3: good healthcare options for women, do just sort of discuss

541
00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:30,490
Speaker 3: with our girlfriends right about what maybe worked for them.

542
00:30:30,650 --> 00:30:34,010
Speaker 3: And these conversations are often where we make a lot

543
00:30:34,050 --> 00:30:38,930
Speaker 3: of our healthcare decisions sometimes. And we've definitely seen there's

544
00:30:38,970 --> 00:30:41,969
Speaker 3: been this kind of ripple effect of women who are

545
00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:46,090
Speaker 3: starting to talk about psychedelics in rooms and at the

546
00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:49,250
Speaker 3: tables that perhaps they wouldn't have felt comfortable doing before.

547
00:30:49,290 --> 00:30:51,330
Speaker 3: And that is sort of slowly trickling down as to

548
00:30:51,330 --> 00:30:53,010
Speaker 3: who then says, maybe I.

549
00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:54,770
Speaker 4: Will go on a retreat, and you know.

550
00:30:54,730 --> 00:30:57,810
Speaker 3: The number of high quality psychedeltic retreats that are not

551
00:30:58,370 --> 00:31:02,330
Speaker 3: available that are specifically designed for women is going up

552
00:31:02,370 --> 00:31:04,370
Speaker 3: and up. Now I should caveat that with there's some

553
00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:07,610
Speaker 3: not so good retreats, and we should always be very

554
00:31:07,690 --> 00:31:10,610
Speaker 3: very cautious about about choosing to go and do any

555
00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:13,170
Speaker 3: of the stuffs of people that we don't know, we

556
00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:16,370
Speaker 3: don't have any background on, but people I would not

557
00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:18,570
Speaker 3: have told them what I did before, and now have

558
00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:20,770
Speaker 3: they come to me and ask me how it can

559
00:31:20,810 --> 00:31:21,410
Speaker 3: get involved.

560
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:23,490
Speaker 4: So it's been remarkable great.

561
00:31:24,010 --> 00:31:26,770
Speaker 1: What generally happens in a retreat, I'm fascinated by the

562
00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:30,010
Speaker 1: retreats actually, but what happens like so you do you

563
00:31:30,090 --> 00:31:33,250
Speaker 1: do a dose of psilocybin or do you do one

564
00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:36,290
Speaker 1: journey or one trip days and weeks long.

565
00:31:36,890 --> 00:31:39,650
Speaker 3: So not all retreats are the same. And obviously the

566
00:31:39,690 --> 00:31:43,090
Speaker 3: substances that are used in retreats varies a lot. But

567
00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:46,210
Speaker 3: if we were to say, take for example, a psilocybin retreat,

568
00:31:46,570 --> 00:31:51,770
Speaker 3: So for instance, I partnered with a female retreat provider

569
00:31:52,050 --> 00:31:54,290
Speaker 3: and we're going to do some retreats next year that

570
00:31:54,450 --> 00:31:58,570
Speaker 3: are reasonably standard. What we primarily do is we get

571
00:31:58,610 --> 00:32:02,850
Speaker 3: people kind of enrolled three four weeks before the retreat itself.

572
00:32:03,770 --> 00:32:06,170
Speaker 3: Hopefully we will have a medical screening before you get

573
00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:09,850
Speaker 3: onto the retreat, and then you will have a couple

574
00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:12,210
Speaker 3: of calls where you'll meet the other people on the retreat,

575
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:16,730
Speaker 3: meet the facilitators, ask any questions, and then the retreats

576
00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:20,130
Speaker 3: themselves are usually between four and five days long.

577
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:23,690
Speaker 4: They usually consist of one or two psilocybin.

578
00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:28,249
Speaker 3: Ceremonies, and you will perhaps arrive on the first day,

579
00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:31,850
Speaker 3: settle in, and then have some discussions in the evening.

580
00:32:31,890 --> 00:32:34,970
Speaker 3: The second morning, maybe you have a kind of preparatory

581
00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:37,730
Speaker 3: session between you all, and then the first ceremony will

582
00:32:37,810 --> 00:32:41,130
Speaker 3: usually happen on the second day, and that ceremony is

583
00:32:41,170 --> 00:32:44,330
Speaker 3: around six hours long, and after the ceremony is finished,

584
00:32:44,410 --> 00:32:46,930
Speaker 3: most people you'll just want to eat and go to sleep,

585
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:50,330
Speaker 3: and then the next day you probably take a day

586
00:32:50,330 --> 00:32:54,890
Speaker 3: of integration, so that might look like again having group discussions,

587
00:32:54,930 --> 00:33:02,530
Speaker 3: but journaling, often meditation practices, yoga massages, but really taking

588
00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:07,250
Speaker 3: time slowly and just reflecting. And then the day after

589
00:33:07,290 --> 00:33:10,450
Speaker 3: that often they will then do a second ceremony, and

590
00:33:11,130 --> 00:33:12,810
Speaker 3: all the day after that again will be kind of

591
00:33:12,810 --> 00:33:16,770
Speaker 3: integration and discussion and again practices of how you can

592
00:33:16,810 --> 00:33:20,050
Speaker 3: take these things forward into your life. And then once

593
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,370
Speaker 3: you leave the retreat, that's when all the real work,

594
00:33:22,970 --> 00:33:27,250
Speaker 3: real work starts, and integration is and often you will

595
00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:30,210
Speaker 3: then stay in touch with your cohort for you know,

596
00:33:30,370 --> 00:33:33,850
Speaker 3: three four weeks having group calls to try and integrate

597
00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:38,450
Speaker 3: some of your process. But the whole retreat itself is

598
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:43,330
Speaker 3: really designed as a space, a held space where the

599
00:33:43,370 --> 00:33:46,690
Speaker 3: facilitators and the people who are running the retreat are

600
00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:51,330
Speaker 3: essentially there to keep a container during which you are

601
00:33:51,370 --> 00:33:53,970
Speaker 3: able to kind of go through and you know, experience

602
00:33:54,010 --> 00:33:56,370
Speaker 3: what you need to experience, express whatever it is you

603
00:33:56,410 --> 00:33:59,730
Speaker 3: need to express, and they can be really magical environments.

604
00:33:59,770 --> 00:34:02,170
Speaker 3: Have been extremely lucky to go to a number of

605
00:34:02,170 --> 00:34:05,570
Speaker 3: retreats as not as a participant, but as somebody who

606
00:34:05,610 --> 00:34:09,290
Speaker 3: is helping out with collecting research or similar and the

607
00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:14,770
Speaker 3: atmosphere is unbelievably calm and really fosters this ability for

608
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:17,049
Speaker 3: us to do really deep reflective work.

609
00:34:17,170 --> 00:34:19,370
Speaker 1: Do you collot data from Can you cuot data from

610
00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:20,090
Speaker 1: these retreats?

611
00:34:20,170 --> 00:34:25,210
Speaker 3: Yes, So we collect data as Hystalica, which is an

612
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:28,450
Speaker 3: open survey for any women who are going to any retreats,

613
00:34:28,930 --> 00:34:31,250
Speaker 3: And what we do is we ask people are baseline

614
00:34:31,290 --> 00:34:34,210
Speaker 3: so before they go, and then four weeks and twelve

615
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:38,050
Speaker 3: weeks afterwards. No, this particular piece of research is specifically

616
00:34:38,090 --> 00:34:42,010
Speaker 3: looking at mental cycle symptoms and specifically looking at menopause symptoms.

617
00:34:42,570 --> 00:34:45,570
Speaker 3: But I've done a lot of research, for instance, with

618
00:34:45,730 --> 00:34:49,210
Speaker 3: military veterans, where we've done a similar thing, and we're

619
00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:53,810
Speaker 3: looking at post mundic stress disorder, quality of life military

620
00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:57,010
Speaker 3: to civilian conversions. But there's also a lot of real

621
00:34:57,090 --> 00:34:59,690
Speaker 3: interest now and I completely get it in individuals who

622
00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:02,530
Speaker 3: are going through psychedic retreats who want to you know,

623
00:35:02,570 --> 00:35:05,330
Speaker 3: we all are clean on our own data, and we are,

624
00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:08,090
Speaker 3: you know, all getting so good at integrating all of

625
00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:11,930
Speaker 3: these wearable devices into our lives. And there are some

626
00:35:11,970 --> 00:35:14,850
Speaker 3: really interesting programs that have popped out that you can

627
00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:17,850
Speaker 3: sort of apply for subscription and sort of follow yourselves

628
00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:20,810
Speaker 3: through your own psychedelic experience and see what kind of

629
00:35:20,850 --> 00:35:22,730
Speaker 3: changes that it might occur.

630
00:35:23,970 --> 00:35:27,650
Speaker 1: Integration and wearables. I love that, actually, I love that's

631
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:31,570
Speaker 1: really great. What trials and research right now do you

632
00:35:31,610 --> 00:35:35,570
Speaker 1: find particularly promising? What do you see as the future

633
00:35:35,690 --> 00:35:37,170
Speaker 1: the promising area of the future.

634
00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:41,050
Speaker 3: There are hundreds of clinical trials currently ongoing with psychedelics,

635
00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:44,530
Speaker 3: so it's difficult to pick my favorite favorite one or

636
00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:48,690
Speaker 3: my favorite indication, but for me, it has to be

637
00:35:48,970 --> 00:35:53,290
Speaker 3: neurodegenerative disorders. And potentially things like traumatic brain injuries as well.

638
00:35:53,490 --> 00:35:58,010
Speaker 3: With psychedelics, we're starting to think it could be possible

639
00:35:58,370 --> 00:36:00,570
Speaker 3: that we have a mechanism that looks a bit like

640
00:36:00,650 --> 00:36:05,290
Speaker 3: neuronal regrowth in traumatic brain injury. It's early days, it's

641
00:36:05,290 --> 00:36:08,650
Speaker 3: all very pre clinical. Plus this anecdotal evidence of people

642
00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:10,290
Speaker 3: who've taken psychedelics, but.

643
00:36:10,770 --> 00:36:12,730
Speaker 4: We not have good answers for them at all at

644
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:13,170
Speaker 4: the moment.

645
00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:19,490
Speaker 1: What women who should consider pursuing any type of psychedelic

646
00:36:19,530 --> 00:36:21,650
Speaker 1: type of treatment. Who do you think benefits the most?

647
00:36:21,730 --> 00:36:24,330
Speaker 1: Who should seek Who should say, hmm, maybe that's from me,

648
00:36:24,450 --> 00:36:25,690
Speaker 1: Maybe I should pursue that.

649
00:36:26,290 --> 00:36:30,010
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot a lot of women

650
00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:33,890
Speaker 3: would benefit hugely from it. You just sort of ask

651
00:36:33,970 --> 00:36:38,490
Speaker 3: yourself the questions in terms of what that potentially would

652
00:36:38,490 --> 00:36:42,130
Speaker 3: you like to discover about yourself? Or is there some

653
00:36:42,490 --> 00:36:46,050
Speaker 3: part of you that you want to move past. And

654
00:36:46,090 --> 00:36:48,530
Speaker 3: we don't always have to talk about this in terms

655
00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:51,370
Speaker 3: of oh, I actually I feel very anxious, or I'm

656
00:36:51,490 --> 00:36:53,730
Speaker 3: having sleep problems. It could be like I feel a

657
00:36:53,770 --> 00:36:56,810
Speaker 3: real creative block between my work at the moment and

658
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:58,410
Speaker 3: I want to find out what is at the bottom

659
00:36:58,450 --> 00:37:02,250
Speaker 3: of that, Or my children have all left home, and

660
00:37:02,290 --> 00:37:05,490
Speaker 3: I want to now give myself the opportunity to re engage,

661
00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:09,010
Speaker 3: you know, with myself and understand more. So anyone who

662
00:37:09,010 --> 00:37:13,090
Speaker 3: has this sort of curiosity to try and understand themselves more,

663
00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:16,650
Speaker 3: you know, potentially with this intention to improve in some

664
00:37:16,810 --> 00:37:20,410
Speaker 3: aspect I think, is really ready to start thinking about

665
00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:24,490
Speaker 3: doing it. It's fascinating to watch, as I say, people

666
00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:26,650
Speaker 3: kind of come out the other side of it, and

667
00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:29,170
Speaker 3: often the thing that they go in that they think

668
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:31,490
Speaker 3: is the thing that has been upsetting them, and it

669
00:37:31,530 --> 00:37:33,730
Speaker 3: actually turns out that it's nothing to do with it

670
00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:36,730
Speaker 3: at all, And then you can actually yeah, absolutely, and

671
00:37:36,770 --> 00:37:39,850
Speaker 3: then you can address it and move forward, whereas if

672
00:37:39,890 --> 00:37:42,290
Speaker 3: you don't, you'll spend your whole time looking at this thing,

673
00:37:42,370 --> 00:37:44,730
Speaker 3: going why is this thing ruining my life? Not understanding

674
00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:45,610
Speaker 3: it's nothing to do.

675
00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:48,090
Speaker 1: With it's something in a different direction that's like, yeah,

676
00:37:48,290 --> 00:37:51,170
Speaker 1: that's actually so interesting. Gives you better.

677
00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:54,410
Speaker 4: Insight, huge insight about who you are.

678
00:37:54,770 --> 00:38:00,210
Speaker 1: If somebody is embracing psychedelics in their life and using

679
00:38:00,250 --> 00:38:03,770
Speaker 1: them and as having benefits from them, how frequently are

680
00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:04,530
Speaker 1: they using them?

681
00:38:05,050 --> 00:38:06,570
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another great question.

682
00:38:07,370 --> 00:38:10,890
Speaker 3: And I think as little as you need to, you know,

683
00:38:11,090 --> 00:38:13,010
Speaker 3: as should be the answer with a lot of things

684
00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:16,250
Speaker 3: that we take. But when it comes to big ceremonial doses,

685
00:38:16,810 --> 00:38:18,770
Speaker 3: you know, if you do a ceremony properly, you shouldn't

686
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:21,770
Speaker 3: really want to go back to one in the near future.

687
00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:24,170
Speaker 3: You know, they are big and they are a lot

688
00:38:24,210 --> 00:38:27,490
Speaker 3: to process. It's always a concern for me when I

689
00:38:27,530 --> 00:38:30,770
Speaker 3: see people jumping from one ceremony to the next. It

690
00:38:30,770 --> 00:38:34,810
Speaker 3: can often mean they're doing something we might call spiritual bypassing,

691
00:38:34,850 --> 00:38:37,810
Speaker 3: where you're not really listening to the message you're getting,

692
00:38:38,130 --> 00:38:40,570
Speaker 3: but the ceremony itself is making you feel kind of

693
00:38:40,570 --> 00:38:43,690
Speaker 3: good enough, and that afterglow that you just keep jumping

694
00:38:43,690 --> 00:38:47,370
Speaker 3: from one to the next. There's an excellent quotation, when

695
00:38:47,370 --> 00:38:48,610
Speaker 3: you get the message hang.

696
00:38:48,490 --> 00:38:52,930
Speaker 1: Up the phone microdocing. Tell us about microdocen What that is?

697
00:38:52,970 --> 00:38:54,290
Speaker 1: What are the benefits?

698
00:38:54,850 --> 00:38:58,850
Speaker 3: Yeah, well the jury is still allowed on the benefits,

699
00:38:58,850 --> 00:39:06,010
Speaker 3: I'm afraid. But microdosing essentially is taking a sub perceptual

700
00:39:06,130 --> 00:39:11,850
Speaker 3: sub pollucinatory amount of the substance. And I say, you

701
00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:14,090
Speaker 3: know both those things there as we always used to

702
00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:18,490
Speaker 3: say sub perceptual, but actually when we think about some

703
00:39:18,570 --> 00:39:20,930
Speaker 3: of the what we would still classed as a psychedelic

704
00:39:20,970 --> 00:39:24,770
Speaker 3: people are. They are noticing that something is different, but

705
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:27,730
Speaker 3: it's not in a way that would impair your ability

706
00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:32,890
Speaker 3: to go about your everyday life. So you would still

707
00:39:32,890 --> 00:39:33,530
Speaker 3: be able to.

708
00:39:33,610 --> 00:39:36,850
Speaker 4: Work or move around. I won't say you would be

709
00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:39,570
Speaker 4: able to drive, because these substances are illegal and you

710
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:41,130
Speaker 4: actually would be breaking the law.

711
00:39:41,610 --> 00:39:46,170
Speaker 3: So when we talk about microdocing, what we're talking about

712
00:39:46,330 --> 00:39:49,170
Speaker 3: is usually taking these substances in a way that might

713
00:39:49,490 --> 00:39:53,370
Speaker 3: be much more recognizable to how people think about traditional pharmaceuticals.

714
00:39:53,410 --> 00:39:57,330
Speaker 3: So we're taking these substances daily, though often with micro

715
00:39:57,370 --> 00:39:59,730
Speaker 3: docing protocols we might say we'll take them every other day,

716
00:39:59,810 --> 00:40:02,690
Speaker 3: for instance, and there's a lot of kind of thinking

717
00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:05,450
Speaker 3: about you know, exactly what that should be, but essentially

718
00:40:05,490 --> 00:40:07,650
Speaker 3: you do it for a prolonged period of time. Now,

719
00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:10,250
Speaker 3: the reason that you might be doing that could be

720
00:40:10,290 --> 00:40:13,450
Speaker 3: for all of you, you know, the improvements in serotoinlagic function,

721
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:17,290
Speaker 3: but also these improvements in europlus system the other kind

722
00:40:17,330 --> 00:40:19,730
Speaker 3: of long you know, more kind of longer lasting effects

723
00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:23,330
Speaker 3: of psychedelics. In terms of evidence we have, it's a

724
00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:26,170
Speaker 3: difficult one because there's not been a lot of randomized

725
00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:28,370
Speaker 3: control trials done and one of the things that is

726
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:34,330
Speaker 3: really important to remember is that the placebo effect is very,

727
00:40:34,450 --> 00:40:40,970
Speaker 3: very real, particularly in mental health disorders, and the anticipation

728
00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:45,850
Speaker 3: that people have that using a microdose of psychedelics is

729
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:51,090
Speaker 3: going to make their insert thing hear better is such

730
00:40:51,250 --> 00:40:55,370
Speaker 3: that many people see a huge benefit when they start microdosing.

731
00:40:56,290 --> 00:40:59,210
Speaker 3: Once we start to take that data and we apply

732
00:40:59,370 --> 00:41:03,370
Speaker 3: control groups to it, we apply placebos and more rigorous

733
00:41:03,410 --> 00:41:06,370
Speaker 3: testing in terms of what is actually changing, we see

734
00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:10,370
Speaker 3: those effects actually come down a lot. And so the

735
00:41:10,410 --> 00:41:15,450
Speaker 3: evidence base for microdocing psychedelics as a substance is the

736
00:41:15,490 --> 00:41:19,130
Speaker 3: thing that is making your anxiety go away or improving

737
00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:23,770
Speaker 3: your cognition or whatever else they have been testing, is that. Yeah,

738
00:41:24,370 --> 00:41:27,050
Speaker 3: it's a bit it's a bit trickier to find once

739
00:41:27,090 --> 00:41:30,170
Speaker 3: we add a randomized control trial in. And it could

740
00:41:30,210 --> 00:41:33,010
Speaker 3: also just be that the pacibo response is so strong,

741
00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:35,970
Speaker 3: yeah right, that it still works. It's just everyone the

742
00:41:36,010 --> 00:41:38,130
Speaker 3: perceiver really thinks it works too, and so the effect

743
00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:39,450
Speaker 3: size gets washed out.

744
00:41:39,650 --> 00:41:45,530
Speaker 1: Washed out contraindications to psychedelics. Sure should not use a psychedelic.

745
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:49,690
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think there's a lot of questions still

746
00:41:49,850 --> 00:41:55,130
Speaker 3: around psychosis, and anyone who has any family history of

747
00:41:55,170 --> 00:42:00,130
Speaker 3: psychosis and talking things psych schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. We

748
00:42:00,450 --> 00:42:05,250
Speaker 3: do have some anecdotal evidence of people having taken psychedelics

749
00:42:05,290 --> 00:42:08,530
Speaker 3: and it induced a psychotic episode in people who were

750
00:42:08,850 --> 00:42:13,850
Speaker 3: already predisposed to this. So if you do have had

751
00:42:13,890 --> 00:42:16,690
Speaker 3: any personal history of psychosist or have any immediate family

752
00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:19,610
Speaker 3: members a brother or sister, a parent, an uncle and aunt,

753
00:42:20,130 --> 00:42:23,890
Speaker 3: then I don't recommend that you take these substances. The

754
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:27,010
Speaker 3: other part is that these substances do put a strain

755
00:42:27,210 --> 00:42:31,210
Speaker 3: on our systems and our physical bodies for the time

756
00:42:31,250 --> 00:42:33,370
Speaker 3: in which we're under them. They increase our heart rate,

757
00:42:33,450 --> 00:42:37,930
Speaker 3: our blood pressure, if you have any cardiovascular problems, again,

758
00:42:38,050 --> 00:42:40,970
Speaker 3: it would not be advisable to take these substances. We

759
00:42:41,050 --> 00:42:45,050
Speaker 3: know that women are a much higher risk for cardiovascular

760
00:42:45,090 --> 00:42:49,130
Speaker 3: events postmenopause and so potentially are a group at higher

761
00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:53,770
Speaker 3: risk for using psychedelics because of this particular aspect of them.

762
00:42:54,770 --> 00:42:58,330
Speaker 3: And if you're currently taking medication, there's a lot of

763
00:42:58,330 --> 00:43:01,330
Speaker 3: medications that do not mix well with psychedelics. As I mentioned,

764
00:43:01,330 --> 00:43:04,930
Speaker 3: these are working on many different systems within our brain,

765
00:43:05,010 --> 00:43:09,250
Speaker 3: primarily the serotonergic system, but also you know dopamine, glutamatic

766
00:43:09,730 --> 00:43:14,170
Speaker 3: and so if you're taking any medications, particularly any psychiatric medications,

767
00:43:14,490 --> 00:43:16,650
Speaker 3: it's really a good idea that you go.

768
00:43:16,610 --> 00:43:19,290
Speaker 4: And speak to somebody. But we also know.

769
00:43:19,210 --> 00:43:21,530
Speaker 3: That these psychiatric medications can take a long time for

770
00:43:21,570 --> 00:43:23,730
Speaker 3: our brain to kind of bounce back in terms of

771
00:43:23,810 --> 00:43:27,090
Speaker 3: receptor availability and things, and that can really impact the

772
00:43:27,250 --> 00:43:30,370
Speaker 3: experience that you'll have, not that you'll have a worse experience,

773
00:43:30,410 --> 00:43:32,610
Speaker 3: but often that the experience will be dulled in some way,

774
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:36,770
Speaker 3: will not actually have perhaps the effect that you would like.

775
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:39,730
Speaker 3: My final point was just to say, as well, anyone

776
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:42,930
Speaker 3: who's not serious about it, I don't think should do it.

777
00:43:43,610 --> 00:43:45,170
Speaker 4: I think you know that they need.

778
00:43:45,290 --> 00:43:50,690
Speaker 3: These substances are amazing, but they are very powerful and

779
00:43:50,770 --> 00:43:54,250
Speaker 3: if you're not really in a position to take it

780
00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:57,530
Speaker 3: seriously in terms of you know, checking in with yourself

781
00:43:58,410 --> 00:44:01,410
Speaker 3: and making sure that you are mentally prepared to you know,

782
00:44:01,810 --> 00:44:04,410
Speaker 3: take these substances and have thought about what integration might

783
00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:06,290
Speaker 3: look like for you and how you might want to

784
00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:11,650
Speaker 3: you know, you know, include certain practices going forward. All

785
00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:14,490
Speaker 3: of those things are really really important in terms of

786
00:44:14,930 --> 00:44:18,450
Speaker 3: in proving your chances of having a successful experience, but

787
00:44:18,490 --> 00:44:20,130
Speaker 3: also your safety during the time.

788
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:25,050
Speaker 1: So resources in terms of best practices for women are

789
00:44:25,210 --> 00:44:28,250
Speaker 1: anybody who wants to pursue this, what do you recommend

790
00:44:28,250 --> 00:44:30,690
Speaker 1: to women who want to start on maybe this pathway.

791
00:44:31,410 --> 00:44:34,330
Speaker 3: I have a couple of retreats that I know personally

792
00:44:34,410 --> 00:44:37,130
Speaker 3: and I trust, and I have them on my website.

793
00:44:37,570 --> 00:44:41,050
Speaker 3: I also have on there a whole page that is

794
00:44:41,690 --> 00:44:45,450
Speaker 3: taking you through the checklist of you know, what you

795
00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:47,610
Speaker 3: should look for in a retreat and the questions you

796
00:44:47,610 --> 00:44:50,330
Speaker 3: should be asking yourself before you go to retreat, so

797
00:44:50,730 --> 00:44:53,530
Speaker 3: you know, ask yourself what your intentions are, but ask

798
00:44:53,570 --> 00:44:56,770
Speaker 3: yourself what their intentions are. And I often like to

799
00:44:56,770 --> 00:44:59,090
Speaker 3: think about when you kind of go through the process

800
00:44:59,090 --> 00:45:03,090
Speaker 3: of being under the influence of psychedelic it's probably a

801
00:45:03,090 --> 00:45:05,770
Speaker 3: little comparable to that of giving birth. And if you

802
00:45:05,810 --> 00:45:08,850
Speaker 3: wouldn't trust that person to help you give birth, don't

803
00:45:08,890 --> 00:45:12,010
Speaker 3: trust them to sit with you while you're on psychedelics.

804
00:45:12,170 --> 00:45:14,770
Speaker 1: If women could take away one major point from our

805
00:45:14,770 --> 00:45:16,890
Speaker 1: conversation today, what would you hope it to be.

806
00:45:19,890 --> 00:45:25,490
Speaker 3: I'd like them to take away if they've not tried psychedelics,

807
00:45:25,570 --> 00:45:28,970
Speaker 3: that maybe that this maybe this could be a gift

808
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:32,690
Speaker 3: that they give to themselves, and it could be this

809
00:45:32,850 --> 00:45:35,570
Speaker 3: moment to think, actually when did her last check in

810
00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:38,170
Speaker 3: with me and understand, you know, the route of perhaps

811
00:45:38,210 --> 00:45:41,210
Speaker 3: my anguish in any way, and do something about trying

812
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:43,530
Speaker 3: to change that. And it doesn't have to be psychedelics, right,

813
00:45:43,570 --> 00:45:46,450
Speaker 3: Maybe it's a yoga class, maybe it's meditation, maybe it's

814
00:45:46,450 --> 00:45:50,410
Speaker 3: something else, But it's worth just taking time to check

815
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:55,010
Speaker 3: in and ask our bodies because modern Western science has

816
00:45:55,010 --> 00:45:59,290
Speaker 3: not been designed, particularly with women, to make sure that

817
00:45:59,330 --> 00:46:01,850
Speaker 3: we are looked after on you know, not just these

818
00:46:01,930 --> 00:46:04,930
Speaker 3: kind of biological levels, but also these spiritual levels.

819
00:46:06,050 --> 00:46:08,650
Speaker 1: I love what doctor Bless Hopley just said about taking

820
00:46:08,650 --> 00:46:11,770
Speaker 1: the time to check in with our bodies, about finding

821
00:46:11,810 --> 00:46:16,570
Speaker 1: ways through movement, through meditation, through whatever brings you peace

822
00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:19,370
Speaker 1: and joy, and making room in your life for those things.

823
00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:23,330
Speaker 1: It's clear that the field of psychedelics has a ton

824
00:46:23,490 --> 00:46:26,570
Speaker 1: of promise. There's still a lot of research to be done,

825
00:46:26,890 --> 00:46:29,810
Speaker 1: especially on how they affect women, which is why I'm

826
00:46:29,890 --> 00:46:33,410
Speaker 1: so grateful that researchers are finally paying attention to this.

827
00:46:34,410 --> 00:46:38,450
Speaker 1: And this conversation made me excited hearing that through these

828
00:46:38,490 --> 00:46:42,250
Speaker 1: studies we're getting early indications of ways these drugs may

829
00:46:42,290 --> 00:46:45,570
Speaker 1: be helpful tools. But it's important to keep in mind

830
00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:49,130
Speaker 1: that psychedelics are a tool. They're not a magical cure.

831
00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:51,330
Speaker 1: They may be a way to give your brain a

832
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:54,210
Speaker 1: chance to shift out of long standing patterns, or a

833
00:46:54,210 --> 00:46:57,650
Speaker 1: way to manage depression when other options just haven't worked.

834
00:46:58,370 --> 00:47:01,530
Speaker 1: But of course it's so crucial to check with yourself

835
00:47:01,650 --> 00:47:05,810
Speaker 1: and do your research before undergoing any new treatments, especially

836
00:47:05,850 --> 00:47:09,930
Speaker 1: in this space. Coming up, on the next episode of

837
00:47:09,930 --> 00:47:13,530
Speaker 1: Decoding Women's Health, I'll be joined by a very special guest,

838
00:47:13,890 --> 00:47:18,490
Speaker 1: my husband, doctor Richard Shapiro, for a conversation about how

839
00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:24,450
Speaker 1: to best support your partner through menopause. Dacoding Women's Health

840
00:47:24,490 --> 00:47:27,170
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries and the Atria Health

841
00:47:27,210 --> 00:47:31,090
Speaker 1: and Research Institute. This episode was produced by Rebecca Lee

842
00:47:31,130 --> 00:47:35,170
Speaker 1: Douglas and Daphne Chen. It was edited by Amy Gaines McQuaid,

843
00:47:36,170 --> 00:47:40,610
Speaker 1: mastering by Sarah Bruguer. Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwitt.

844
00:47:40,930 --> 00:47:44,890
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Alexandra Garreton. Our theme song was

845
00:47:44,930 --> 00:47:49,730
Speaker 1: composed by Hannes Brown. Concept creative development and fact checking

846
00:47:49,890 --> 00:47:54,050
Speaker 1: by Shabon O'Connor. Special thanks to Alan Tish, David Saltzman,

847
00:47:54,810 --> 00:48:01,130
Speaker 1: Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Jordan McMillan,

848
00:48:01,450 --> 00:48:05,130
Speaker 1: and Greta Cone. If you have questions about women's health

849
00:48:05,130 --> 00:48:07,930
Speaker 1: and midlife, leave us a voicemail at four FI five

850
00:48:08,290 --> 00:48:12,330
Speaker 1: two one three three eight five, or sends a message

851
00:48:12,330 --> 00:48:16,610
Speaker 1: at Decoding Women's Health at Pushkin dot FM. I'm doctor

852
00:48:16,610 --> 00:48:19,610
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Pointer. Thanks for listening. Until next time,