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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph

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Speaker 1: and best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: I killed her, I killed the teen dream. Deal with it, Jamie.

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Speaker 3: Oh. I was thinking that whole time. Wouldn't it be

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Speaker 3: awesome if that was in a build a bear?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: That's where I wanted it, because did you ever have

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Speaker 3: like I remember I had like a friend at school

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Speaker 3: who it was like a teenager's dating thing, and the

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Speaker 3: guy gave the girl a build a bear that was like,

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Speaker 3: I love you, Megan.

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Speaker 2: I never had one as a youth, but when I

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Speaker 2: had the whole sludge debacle and I got my gall

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Speaker 2: bladder surgery, my friend Nikki gave me a build a

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Speaker 2: bear and when you like, press its little paw, she

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Speaker 2: had it make me ups So it's a teddy bear

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Speaker 2: that he's like.

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Speaker 3: Now you used to be able to. I mean it

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Speaker 3: sounded horrible, but you could put your own voice in it,

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Speaker 3: much like the uh Chekhov's card that we have yes

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Speaker 3: in Job Breaker. That's my one note for Job Breaker

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Speaker 3: the rest is perfect, The rest is flawless. It should

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Speaker 3: have been a Build a Bear. Agree, Yeah, we should

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Speaker 3: start putting more murder confessions in Build a Bears. I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna smile that away.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I think we should record the Bechdel Cast on

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Speaker 2: Build a Bears.

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Speaker 3: And just distribute it that way. We're getting back into

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Speaker 3: tangible media because the digital revolution's gone too far.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you want to hear any more

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Speaker 2: episodes of the Bechdel Cast, you have to. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: we'll send them to you. We'll send you a bear.

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Speaker 3: It would get really expensive, really fast. Yeah, but one

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Speaker 3: of us will confess to a murder in every episode,

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Speaker 3: and that's the beel Cast guarantee. Whoa yeah, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think my favorite lene in this movie is you

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Speaker 3: know how girlfriends kidnap their girlfriends on their birthday? Well,

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Speaker 3: we did that.

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Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, time old tradition that we all know

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Speaker 2: and love.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's the best, I guess. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 3: I derailed your very funny intro immediately.

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Speaker 2: No, I loved it. Well, I'm Jamie Lott, I'm Caitlin Dorante,

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Speaker 2: and this is the Bechtel Cast, our show where we

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Speaker 2: examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel

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Speaker 2: Test simply as a jumping off point. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we have limited time today. If you want to know

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Speaker 2: what the Bechdel test is, listen to another episode, look

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Speaker 2: it up. I feel like we just have to get

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Speaker 2: right into it today, truly.

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Speaker 3: I mean spoiler alert. Don't worry about the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 3: for this movie. There are women and people of marginalized

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Speaker 3: genders talking to each other the entire movie and it's

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Speaker 3: all horrible. So it has a lot of fun passes

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Speaker 3: in this movie.

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Speaker 2: Very much so. Oh the movie we're talking about today

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Speaker 2: is Jawbreaker nineteen ninety nine. Call classic, long time request.

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Speaker 2: It's like a request we've been getting since the beginning

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Speaker 2: of the show.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: And our guest today, returning guest. You know Crystal as

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Speaker 2: a drag artist who's known for RuPaul's Drag Race UK

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Speaker 2: Season one Ever heard of it, and more recently for

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Speaker 2: successfully suing right wing troll Lawrence Fox.

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Speaker 4: It's Crystal, Hi, welcome back, thank you. I'm so happy

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Speaker 4: to be back.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you've gone through a legal saga since

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Speaker 3: you last appeared on the show.

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Speaker 4: Congratulations, I sure have putten the in litigious, as they say,

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Speaker 4: love for that.

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Speaker 2: That was great. So you've brought us Jawbreaker. What is

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Speaker 2: your history and relationship with the movie.

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Speaker 4: I've been trying to remember that all week, but I

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Speaker 4: definitely I think I saw the movie when I was

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Speaker 4: around twenty, but like I would have seen it posts

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Speaker 4: mean Girls as kind of like one of those movies

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Speaker 4: that you get shown when you come out. It's like

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Speaker 4: someone sits down AND's like, you're gonna need to watch this,

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Speaker 4: and heathers and you're gonna need to watch But I'm

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Speaker 4: a cheerleader and we're gonna watch the first season of

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Speaker 4: ab fab and then you'll be complete as a homosexual.

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Speaker 3: Man's part of the starter kit that's distributed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it gets handed out along with a bottle of

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Speaker 4: poppers and Madonna's greatest sts. I don't know. So that

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Speaker 4: was kind of when I saw it, and then I've

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Speaker 4: watched it probably a few times in the intervening period,

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Speaker 4: but it's been a long time since I watched it again.

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Speaker 4: And I did that yesterday, which was interesting. Basically, I

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Speaker 4: suggested this movie just because I'm desperate to hear what

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Speaker 4: you both think about it. I kind of need I

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Speaker 4: needed some outside I need some outsided butts.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I was relying on you to be like, what

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Speaker 2: are you.

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Speaker 4: Think about this?

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Speaker 2: Because I don't know what to make of it exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we get to the bottom of it today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Jamie, what is your relationship with the movie?

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Speaker 3: Weirdly had not seen it. I don't know why it

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Speaker 3: had been missing me for so many years. I love

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Speaker 3: this genre of movie. I love a violent click. I

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Speaker 3: love it. Yeah, I'd never seen it and it was

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's tricky. I like it. I like it.

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Speaker 3: I think it is very funny. We'll talk about because

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Speaker 3: there's been like two oral histories written about Jawbreaker in

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Speaker 3: the same three year span. Who can say why, But

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Speaker 3: I do think it's very funny that the director of

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Speaker 3: this movie is very defensive about being like, it's not Heathers,

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Speaker 3: and You're like, Darren, but not.

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Speaker 2: Only that, it's like, it's not Heathers, But what's this

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Speaker 2: Mean Girls all about? It's so derivative of my.

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Speaker 3: I know, he's like, Mean Girls is ripping me off.

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Speaker 3: I was like, Darren, every thing I read from the director,

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Speaker 3: he kind of he was cracking me up because I

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Speaker 3: was just like, sir, come on. But but the movie itself,

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Speaker 3: I mean I thought it was like it's very dark.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was like super funny at times and

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Speaker 3: then other there's I don't know. For a lot of

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Speaker 3: this movie I was thinking about, like, wow, I really

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Speaker 3: have to rewatch Heathers. But I feel like Job Breaker

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Speaker 3: does mostly does a thing that I appreciate where it's

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Speaker 3: like women are running the show the whole time. There

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Speaker 3: is one plot boyfriend, who I think we could have

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Speaker 3: done without. But outside of Zach, I do like that

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Speaker 3: this is a world mostly devoid of men at all

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Speaker 3: in terms of like power, influence, And I mean, you

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Speaker 3: can't hate too hard on a movie that features detective

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Speaker 3: Pam Greer doing some like career worst detective work, doing

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Speaker 3: just a really bad job. Pam Gregor's doing great, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but her character is useless.

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Speaker 4: Pam Grier's hair, especially.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, the bangs.

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Speaker 4: Doing the most thes.

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Speaker 2: My head canon is that she is like, the cops

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Speaker 2: are fucked a cab. I'm deliberately doing it.

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Speaker 3: You're really gonna not solve this murder.

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Speaker 4: She actually just knew what was coming from Marilyn Manson

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Speaker 4: and just wanted to lock him up.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that plot points specifically ages stunningly well.

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Speaker 4: You're like, leave him there, leave him, no need to

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Speaker 4: revisit that.

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Speaker 3: I honestly didn't even recognize. It wasn't until I was

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Speaker 3: like reading through the fun facts about this because I remember, like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, he's prominently featured in the opening credits

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Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, and then at the end, I

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Speaker 3: was like, I don't think I know what he looks.

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Speaker 2: Like without his like makeup, right, because he's not in

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Speaker 2: his makeup in the movie. You're just like, that is

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Speaker 2: I guess that is Marilyn Manson, but a bummer I

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Speaker 2: devember to tad to see him. Anyways, I hadn't seen it.

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Speaker 2: I have mixed feelings about it, but like not feelings

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Speaker 2: that are so negative that I mean, it looks amazing.

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Speaker 2: You have the same costume designer as like Rome and

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Speaker 2: Michelle and clueless, like, there's a lot to love about it,

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Speaker 2: but I'm excited to get into it.

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Speaker 3: Caitlin, had you seen this movie before?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know. I thought I had seen it

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Speaker 2: the whole way through. I had a friend my freshman

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Speaker 2: year of college. Shout out Tina, who exposed me to

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Speaker 2: some of my still favorite movies. She showed me Josie

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Speaker 2: and the Pussycats, she showed me American Psycho a few others.

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Speaker 2: But she had this very like eclectic taste in movies.

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Speaker 2: And some of it was like, you know, fun mainstream

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Speaker 2: bops that I just hadn't seen. Some of it where

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Speaker 2: were your things like Jawbreaker, which have a cult following.

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Speaker 2: Some were like movies that most people have never heard of,

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Speaker 2: such as Happiness of the Categories. Like o any Bechdel

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Speaker 2: heads out there are familiar with the Happiness of the Categories,

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Speaker 2: please let me know. Anyway, all this to say that

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Speaker 2: she showed me Jawbreaker, or at least I thought we

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Speaker 2: watched it all the way through together, because I have

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Speaker 2: the image of the trunk popping and Liz in the

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Speaker 2: trunk dead with like the bulge of the jaw Breaker

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Speaker 2: in her throat.

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Speaker 3: Like that image whoever was doing the practical effects in

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Speaker 3: this movie ooh, like truly one of the most bone

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Speaker 3: chilling corpses.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And that image was like seered into my brain

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Speaker 2: and my memory for all times. So I was like,

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Speaker 2: of course I've seen this movie. I remember that very well,

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Speaker 2: but that happens in the first five minutes, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't remember any of the rest of the movie. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know if we like started watching it and

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Speaker 2: then we just started like talking over it and not

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Speaker 2: really paying attention. I don't know if I did sit

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Speaker 2: through it and just didn't remember anything except for that

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Speaker 2: one image.

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Speaker 3: I don't really know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like you'd remember the last shot as well,

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Speaker 4: if you'd seen.

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Speaker 2: It all right, you would think, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Those are the two that like are the most memorable,

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Speaker 4: the top and tail for sure. The middle of what

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Speaker 4: happens Who's I'm still not sure, YadA YadA.

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Speaker 3: Zach.

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Speaker 2: I will say that the scene that's like a flashback

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Speaker 2: when like Rose McGowan is having sex with Marilyn Manson

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Speaker 2: and the dead bodies under the bed, I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I kind of remember that too, So maybe I just

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Speaker 2: I simply don't know how much of this movie I've seen.

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Speaker 2: All this to say, I've had some exposure to it before,

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Speaker 2: but not much, and watching it this time for the

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Speaker 2: podcast was basically like I was watching it for the

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Speaker 2: first time. So I'm excited to talk about it again.

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Speaker 2: I really don't know quite what to make of it,

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Speaker 2: both from a like personal taste point of view and

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Speaker 2: a like talking about it for the podcast point of view.

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Speaker 2: But again, we're gonna crack the case.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna get to the bottom of it. I can

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Speaker 3: just feel it.

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Speaker 4: We're going to get to the center of it some much.

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Speaker 2: Oh the job. I wanted to go get some like

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Speaker 2: gobstoppers to be you know, rattling around in my mouth

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Speaker 2: during this time.

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Speaker 3: But I've never understood the appeal of those candies. I'm

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Speaker 3: a soft candy girl all the way. It's candy corn season.

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Speaker 2: We do like candy corn. Sorry to say that with

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Speaker 2: so much judgment, but it is the.

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Speaker 3: So bitchy the way you said that.

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Speaker 2: I am the Rose McGowan of this episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, grow up, bitch. There is like a little baby

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Speaker 3: I do. I love the pumpkins. I just bought the

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Speaker 3: amount of like bad for you things I've had before

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Speaker 3: nine thirty in the morning. I'm finishing a root beer. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to stop talking about personal taste at this time.

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Speaker 3: I'm realizing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, sorry, sorry to be so mean about it,

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Speaker 2: but candy corn is objectively the worst thing that was

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Speaker 2: ever invented.

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Speaker 3: You're out of your mind. That is a really sick thing.

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Speaker 4: That I'm not waiting into this one. You two are on.

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Speaker 3: Fair well. I guess we got to talk about Jawbreaker.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

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Speaker 2: back for the recap.

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Speaker 3: And we're back, okay.

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Speaker 2: Before the recap, I will place a content warning for

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Speaker 2: rape and specifically false rape accusations that will come up

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Speaker 2: in the recap as well as our discussion. So we

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Speaker 2: open on voiceover narration from a teen girl talking about

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Speaker 2: this group of the fore most popular girls at her

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Speaker 2: high school. They are Marcy played by Julie Ben's played

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Speaker 2: by Rebecca Gayheart, Courtney played by Rose McGowan, who is

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Speaker 2: the queen Bee and the meanest one of the group

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Speaker 2: and the nicest one, the most like quote unquote perfect

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Speaker 2: one is Liz Perr played by Charlotte Ayana. Now the narrator,

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Speaker 2: who is a character who we will soon meet named

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Speaker 2: Fern Mayo played by Judy Greer. Great character name, I think.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, Formeo great early Judy Greer role great.

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Speaker 2: But Fern Mao seems to be infatuated and obsessed with

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Speaker 2: Liz purr saying how she dreams of what it would

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Speaker 2: be like to be Liz because, unlike these four girls,

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Speaker 2: Fern is not popular. She goes unnoticed by her peers.

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Speaker 2: She's you know, nerdy. So then on Liz's seventeenth birthday,

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Speaker 2: she's kidnapped from her bed a huge jawbreaker, the titular

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Speaker 2: jawbreaker in fact, kind of.

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Speaker 3: A character in the story when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Also, when you think about it, it passes the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel test when this jawbreaker is shoved into the mouth

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Speaker 2: of one of the.

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Speaker 3: Characters, silencing women. Interesting.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like intellectual discourse to be sucking on

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Speaker 2: a job breaker.

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Speaker 3: So that's my take on the matter, classic non candy

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Speaker 3: corn eater take. Okay, So a jawbreaker is shoved into

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Speaker 3: the mouth of Liz and covered with duct tape, and

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Speaker 3: then she's thrown into the trunk of a car, and

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Speaker 3: then we get a reveal that the three kidnappers are

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Speaker 3: actually just her three best friends, Marcy, Julie, and Courtney,

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Speaker 3: who are playing a little like surprise birthday prank on Liz.

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Speaker 4: And this the thing you both did right like this

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Speaker 4: is all teen girls have kidnapped their friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all teen girls.

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Speaker 4: In more and more elaborate ways every year.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, and more dangerous. I will say that

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Speaker 2: one year and I don't remember. This would have been

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Speaker 2: I think my sixteenth or seventeenth birthday. My friends they

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Speaker 2: didn't kidnap me. I knew they were coming, but they

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Speaker 2: did then linefold me and drive me to I forget

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Speaker 2: which mall but a mall a few tons over, and

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Speaker 2: then we went to I want to say Spencer's Gifts

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Speaker 2: because I had never been to Spencer's Gifts before.

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Speaker 3: Wow, a little naughty, Caitlin. I know I've went into

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Speaker 3: a Spencer. There's a Spencer's Gifts on the third floor

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Speaker 3: of the Glendale Galleria. You have to really like navigate

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Speaker 3: carefully to find it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about this.

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Speaker 4: I've been to the Glendale GALLERYA and I've Spencer's Gifts.

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Speaker 4: A sex shop.

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Speaker 3: No, it's more it's like the idea of a sex shot.

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Speaker 4: Right. They sell draws that are shaped like penises.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more like it's like a jokey shop.

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Speaker 4: For like dude brosh. Yeah, it's about a.

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Speaker 3: Twelve year old.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of stuff for they've really diversified their

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Speaker 3: perverted things. And I could say having been there recently. Anyways, Yeah, wait,

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Speaker 3: so you were brought blindfolded to a Spencer's kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I took off the blindfold and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is cool. I actually probably really

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Speaker 2: enjoyed it at the time.

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Speaker 3: As a whatever sixteen year old, I used to love

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Speaker 3: getting in the trunk of my friend's cars and scaring them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've never done that.

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Speaker 3: Like after dance rehearsal, classic hilarious joke. I would Yet

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Speaker 3: I was the Captain Bragg woman and there was this

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Speaker 3: girl who's a year younger, and I would just get

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Speaker 3: in the trunk of her car because you don't leave

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Speaker 3: her car unlocked. Again in the trunk of her car,

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Speaker 3: it surprise her when she put her stuff away.

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Speaker 4: Wow, I feel like that could have gone really badly

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Speaker 4: for you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, but it's but I want everyone to know

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Speaker 3: that I'm willing to put my body on the line

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Speaker 3: for a bit.

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Speaker 4: Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: I mean I've seen it before. I'll see it again,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean if I make it, we'll see. Anyways,

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Speaker 3: they do kill their friend, and this is I think

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Speaker 3: that's like one of the best jokes of the entire

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Speaker 3: movie that they're like, of course everybody does this, this

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Speaker 3: is what girls do.

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Speaker 2: It is very funny, right, So what happens They throw

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Speaker 2: in the trunk with no nefarious intentions or anything, but

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Speaker 2: when they open the trunk, they discover that Liz is dead.

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Speaker 2: Apparently she had swallowed and choked on the jawbreaker, which

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Speaker 2: was Courtney's idea to shove into Liz's mouth. So Courtney

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Speaker 2: is the most culpable in Liz's death. They start panicking.

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Speaker 2: They try to figure out what to do. Julie wants

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Speaker 2: to go to the police and tell them about this incident,

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Speaker 2: which is effectively an accident. You know, they didn't mean

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Speaker 2: for her to die, but Courtney knows it's her fault

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Speaker 2: and she doesn't want to get in trouble, so she

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Speaker 2: coerces her friends into just going along with this plan

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Speaker 2: to keep it a secret, to go to school and

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Speaker 2: pretend like everything is normal. Courtney suggests that to get

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Speaker 2: them off the hook, they put Liz back in her

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Speaker 2: bed and make it seem like she was raped and

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Speaker 2: gagged with a jawbreaker and that's how she died. Unhinged again.

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Speaker 2: Julie tries to object, but Courtney is like, no, we're

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Speaker 2: doing this.

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Speaker 3: It is so wild to me. Like one of the

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Speaker 3: more bizarre elements of the job Breaker world that I

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Speaker 3: feel like Heathers and mean girls does and this doesn't,

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Speaker 3: is like give you a sense of like the other

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Speaker 3: people in this world. You meet a couple of characters

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Speaker 3: outside of the main characters, but it's like with Courtney especially,

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Speaker 3: you're like, where did this girl come from? Like I

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Speaker 3: feel like part of the reason that the Heathers and

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Speaker 3: Regina George are so like they're horrible, but you at

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Speaker 3: least know that they have like some like core wound.

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Speaker 3: And you meet Regina George's mom, You're like, oh, of

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Speaker 3: course she's fucked up like this environment. But Corney just

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Speaker 3: like exists in this evil void. It's weird, yeah.

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Speaker 4: But everything about it is very dreamlike, like the fact

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Speaker 4: that Fern is somehow the captain of the cheerleading.

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Speaker 3: Squad, but when did that happen?

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Speaker 2: How and when.

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Speaker 4: When did that happen? And who was involved in that?

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Speaker 4: And like it all exists in this kind of like

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Speaker 4: the way a dream almost works, where you're like, I'm

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Speaker 4: popular now so now these things have happened to me,

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Speaker 4: but we didn't have to go from A to B.

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Speaker 4: We just magically transported ourselves there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are many scenes that feel like they should

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Speaker 2: have taken place on screen that just happened off screen,

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Speaker 2: such as like Julie deciding not to be their friends anymore,

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Speaker 2: which is about to happen, right. You think you would

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Speaker 2: have like seen a confrontation where Julie's like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to be a part of this, but that just

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Speaker 2: suddenly she's like not walking with the popular girls anymore.

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Speaker 3: It's just visually communicated to us by the fact that

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Speaker 3: she starts wearing Denham, and that's like how we understand

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Speaker 3: that she's no longer friends with them?

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Speaker 4: Yes, exactly is your friend wearing Denham? Check on them?

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Speaker 3: Right? They might have accidentally killed someone and don't know

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Speaker 3: what to do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So they go to school, and at school, a

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Speaker 2: teacher named Miss Sherwood played by Carol Kane asks Courtney

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Speaker 2: to pick up Liz's assignments at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: knowing that Liz isn't in school, though she doesn't know why,

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Speaker 2: of course, but Courtney is late in picking up the assignments,

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Speaker 2: but the narrator, Fern Mayo, happens to be right there,

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Speaker 2: so Miss Sherwood asks Fern to take the assignments to

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Speaker 2: Liz's home. The other girls find out about this, so

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Speaker 2: they race to Lizz's house before Fern can get there

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Speaker 2: to set this like a Lie Jude rape scene up.

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Speaker 2: It's very chaotic. They're kind of freaking out.

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Speaker 3: Sorry this is I was just thinking about Carol Caine.

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Speaker 3: I was like, where have we seen Carol Caine play

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Speaker 3: a kooky teacher before? And the answer is Confessions of

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Speaker 3: a teenage drama Queen. Oh my gosh, anyone else. I

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Speaker 3: was like, I've seen her play this exact character and

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Speaker 3: it's a couple of.

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Speaker 2: Years later in a Lindsay Lowhand role that is not

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Speaker 2: Mean Girls.

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Speaker 3: But did come out in two thousand and four. Makes

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Speaker 3: you think the Matrix.

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00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, okay. So anyway, they're setting up this scene.

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Speaker 2: It's very chaotic. Julie finds this birthday card with a

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Speaker 2: recording of Liz's voice that's saying, what are you doing

403
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Speaker 2: to me? And then Fern comes into the house and

404
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Speaker 2: overhears Courtney saying that she killed Liz. Then Fern sees

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Speaker 2: Liz's dead body.

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Speaker 3: Which is looking rough so bruised.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how it got bruised after her death.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't a jobbreaker was like full of battery, acid

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Speaker 3: or something.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So Courtney coerces Fern into not telling, saying that

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Speaker 2: if she doesn't rat her out, they'll turn her into

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Speaker 2: one of the pretty and popular girls just like them,

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Speaker 2: which is what Fern has always dreamed of. So they

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Speaker 2: give Fern a makeover. They give her a new name, Violette,

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Speaker 2: and everyone thinks she's a new student. No one realizes

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Speaker 2: that this is actually Fern who has been transformed. Meanwhile,

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00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 2: Julie has left the group off screen. She wants nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with this.

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Speaker 3: She bought a jacket at the gap and she's just finished.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh uh huh.

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Speaker 3: And for some reason, another one of the more dream

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Speaker 3: logic key elements of this movie is like, at some point,

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Speaker 3: I really don't understand why Julie doesn't just tell, I.

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Speaker 2: Know, like because Courtney threatens her.

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Speaker 4: Courtney says they'll all gang together and say it was

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Speaker 4: all It was all Julies Yeli, who did it?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, which I understand is scary, but I'm

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Speaker 3: most like, if Courtney's outed as a murderer, she can't

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Speaker 3: do shit like anyways.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I guess that's why Julie stays quiet for

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Speaker 2: a while. Meanwhile, Courtney teaches Fern slash Violette how to

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Speaker 2: be cool and popular like them, and violet is loving it.

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Speaker 2: Then Liz's parents come home from whatever trip they were on,

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Speaker 2: discover their daughter's body and call the police. Enter Detective

435
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Pam Greer. So we've got several Greers. We've got Judy Greer,

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Speaker 2: We've got Pam Greer, David Allen Greer, though, where is he?

437
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: Nowhere to be seen? Nowhere to be seen? And I'm

438
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 3: glad you brought that up.

439
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: Also, my other big criticism of the movie that it

440
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 2: lacks David Allen Greer.

441
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 3: Come on, Darren, it's the rule of threes exactly.

442
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 4: I'm googling David Allen Green.

443
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: Oh you might know him from Jumanji.

444
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 4: Okay, you might know him.

445
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: He had a show, his own show for a while

446
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: that I think was called DAG which are his initials,

447
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: and then he's in other stuff that I don't remember.

448
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 3: Anyway.

449
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 4: Well, I'm with you so much.

450
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: Okay, So Julie starts hanging out with this guy named Zach.

451
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: She also tries to connect with Fern slash Violette, presumably

452
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: to kind of help her get out from under Courtney's clutches.

453
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 2: It seems like they used to be pretty good friends

454
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: in elementary school, but again, Courtney's tyranny is not letting

455
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: that happen. Then there's a scene where Courtney is fooling

456
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: around with her jock boyfriend whose name is Dane, I think,

457
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: and then makes him fulate a popsicle, And that's that scene.

458
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: Then I guess we'll circle back to that.

459
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. Then Detective Pam Grier starts questioning Courtney, Marcy,

460
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: and Julie, but they deny everything. Meanwhile, people are noticing

461
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: and wanting to befriend Violette, and still no one realizes

462
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: that she's Fern Mayo who's been transformed. Courtney tells her

463
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: she needs a boyfriend, and she picks someone out for

464
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,719
Speaker 2: violet Zach Tartak, the guy who Julie has been seeing.

465
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: He's a drama kid. So Courtney signs Violette up for

466
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: the school play and she like gets cast in the

467
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: lead role. She's also the lead cheerleader. Now again, we

468
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: don't know quite how these things happen.

469
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think you're that the dream

470
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 3: logic is just like, oh, yeah, she just becomes what

471
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 3: everyone thinks of being popular, and like, don't worry about

472
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: how she's don't worry about the fact that she's twenty

473
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: five years old. It's fine, right.

474
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: Well, Also, this movie's a satire, and you can get

475
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: away with a lot of things when you're doing satire.

476
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, then Courtney goes back to Detective Pam

477
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: Greer and tells her that Liz was actually into some

478
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: very kinky stuff. You'd never know from her sweet and

479
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: innocent demeanor, but she used to go to bars and

480
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: take home random guys and one of them must have

481
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: gotten too rough and that's why she's dead.

482
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 3: Courtney is so diabolical, just slutshaming from like beyond the grave.

483
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: Right, because as she's saying this to Detective Pam Greer,

484
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: we are seeing a flashback of Courtney doing exactly what

485
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: she's describing Liz to have done. Where Courtney goes into

486
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: a bar, she picks up Marilyn Manson, who was Rose

487
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 2: McGowan's then boyfriend and She's like, do you want to

488
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: be in the movie, and he's like sure. So Marilyn

489
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 2: Manson is there and she takes him to Lizz's house

490
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: and has sex with him on Lizz's bed while Lizz's

491
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: dead body is hiding under the bed, or has been

492
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 2: hidden under the bed. It's not like her dead body

493
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: got up and hid that.

494
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: So like, yeah, I was confused about the timeline of

495
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 3: that for a while. Did she do that? So she

496
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: did that before Lizz's parents got home? I think so.

497
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, seems like there was maybe an extra night. Was

498
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 4: it the day she died? Maybe she did it that night.

499
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she went back.

500
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 3: I was reading in the production about this, like that

501
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: that sex scene in particular, like nearly got the movie

502
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 3: in NC seventeen ratings. I think that they like maybe

503
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 3: the editing around it is a little confusing so that

504
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 3: people could see the movie right.

505
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's at this point that Violet starts just

506
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: kind of wiling out with all this newfound popularity and power.

507
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: She gets a guy to give her a red Corvette

508
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: convertible again. She's been cast as the lead in the

509
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: school play and tries to seduce Zach, but it doesn't work,

510
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: and then Zach goes to Julie and is like, who's

511
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: that Violet girl? She's weird, what's up with her? And

512
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: then Julie proceeds to tell him about the whole situation,

513
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: how Courtney killed Liz and Fern Mayo found out about it,

514
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: so Courtney gave Fern all this social status and transformed

515
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: her into Violet so that she wouldn't tell anyone about

516
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: this death, this murder.

517
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: And then out of nowhere, this random guy has become

518
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: the moral compass of the entire movie.

519
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: You're like, this right, and the fact that they give

520
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: him like the big thing. I'll get to it, but like,

521
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, that should have been one of the girls.

522
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: Why does he get to do the thing with the

523
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: sound recording anyway? So Zach is like, well, you have

524
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: to tell someone, Julie, so she agrees, and they try

525
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: to find evidence, like the polaroid photo that Courtney snapped

526
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: of Liz when they opened the trunk, but they can't

527
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: find the photo anywhere.

528
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 4: They look really hard, though, they.

529
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 5: Don't hard the parking spot, and they're like, wow, Wow,

530
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 5: I don't know, meanwhow I honestly though, I don't know

531
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 5: that Pam Greer's character would have done much better.

532
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: I don't. She's like, yeah, some guy, we've got Marilyn

533
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: Manson in custody, and uh yeah, another hard days work.

534
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: Yeah right.

535
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: So what happens next is Julie ends up going to

536
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: Detective Pam Greer anyway and is about to tell her

537
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: what happened, but Pam Greer is like, well, we already

538
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: have Marilyn Manson in custody, so don't worry about it.

539
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: And in retrospect, yeah, keep him there, right, But there's

540
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: also an evil Rose McGowan character on the.

541
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: Loose, right, So Julie realizes that Courtney must have done

542
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: this thing where she went back to Lizu's house and

543
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: framed Marilyn Manson more or less, so it's up to

544
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: her to take Courtney down. Meanwhile, Courtney doesn't like how

545
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: popular and beloved Violette has become, so she decides to

546
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: expose violet by posting all these photos of her when

547
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: she was still Fern Mayo.

548
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 4: I love that The breaking point for her is Violette

549
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 4: sitting on the car and like dancing. She's like, that's it,

550
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 4: this is gone too far. Violet's bobbing.

551
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: It's so funny that like that has everyone again just

552
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: like the idea of hero worship, because you're like, I

553
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: loved it. When Judy Greer comes to school with a

554
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: vanity plate that says bitch and also a T shirt

555
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: that says bitch, I'm like, yeah, yeah, exactly those scenes.

556
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is the greatest movie ever made. And

557
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: then like, based on the Judy Greer aesthetics alone, it's great.

558
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: For sure.

559
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 4: Courtney is in the bathroom with Marci and Marcy's like

560
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: she's gone too far, She's out of control, and Courtney's like, no,

561
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: everything's fine, and then literal seconds later she's like, this

562
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: is it. We're over just because we have to kill

563
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 4: Violet's on the hood of her cars, like you're you

564
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 4: were right, this is all it's all gone too far.

565
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: I must destroy her.

566
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: The fact that like Violette is basically like Courtney's Frankenstein's monster.

567
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 3: I guess she's Courtney's monster, and then she decides that

568
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: she has to kill her own monster. That is at least,

569
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: you know, different from Heather's in Mean Girls, where it's

570
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: I guess if we're thinking Mean Girls. This movie also

571
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: was like I got to rewatch mean girls. They like

572
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: Katie is kind of Janice's monster. She's not really Regenis.

573
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: She's kind of like planted in there by the uncool kids, right,

574
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: but this one is just the calls coming from inside

575
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: the click. They're like, you're just the new girl.

576
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: More like clueless. I guess where. Well, Alicia Silverstone is

577
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: like hey, Brittany Murphy, right, but like Alicia Silverstone is

578
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: nice and not mean like Corney's.

579
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: Did you see the weird I think it was like

580
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: a TikTok thing or maybe an Instagram thing where Alisa

581
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: Silverstone was recently like walking around and ate poisonous berries

582
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: like out of someone's yard.

583
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 6: She was like, it's so funny, kayle, it's funny. She's okay, okay, okay,

584
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 6: but like I don't she's I don't know where she is,

585
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 6: but she's just she's like making this like really puckered

586
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 6: face and she's like, hey, guys, I just ate these berries.

587
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: Off of someone's tree and they tastes weird. Can anyone

588
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 3: tell me? Am? I sick? Like it was so bizarre, and.

589
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 4: Then she just went quiet for like twenty four hours,

590
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 4: and I was like, is she dead? Is she dead?

591
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: From berries.

592
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: Thankfully, the berries didn't get her, and once everyone found

593
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 3: out they were alive, they're like, why would you just

594
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: eat berries off of Like do you have no self

595
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: preservation instincts? It's why?

596
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: Well, there is that like I don't remember what it's called,

597
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: but like there's this movement where people are like, yeah,

598
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: we should eat the food that's on the trees grow,

599
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: especially in like La where they're like avocado trees. There's

600
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: citrus trees all over and people are like, we should

601
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: be allowed to eat this ray food. And so maybe

602
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: she's just like a part of that movement where she's like,

603
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to eat.

604
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: The street, but also like no one's like and you

605
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: should eat food off the trees and not confirm what

606
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: it is before I eat.

607
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: People who were doing that know what they're eating all

608
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: berries famously fine according to her.

609
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: I guess it's like a parable anyways.

610
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, Okay, so what happens in the movie is that

611
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: Courtney exposes Violette as the nerdy, unpopular Fern Mayo, and

612
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: everyone is like ew yucky, gross, and Fern freaks out

613
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: so hard that she passes out. Been there, but Julie

614
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: and Zach come to Fern's aid, and they team up

615
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: to take Courtney down, but they don't really know how

616
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: until Julie's mom is like, hey, Liz's mom dropped off

617
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: some stuff that she wanted you to have, and one

618
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 2: of the things is that birthday card with Liz's voice recording,

619
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: except now it has a recording of Courtney's saying I

620
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: killed Liz. I killed the teen dream deal with it, which.

621
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 3: Does explain Earlier I was like, why are they why

622
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: and it's like, oh, because that's the evidence. It needs

623
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 3: to be really, it has to be admissible in the

624
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: cord of Pam Greer, which that is.

625
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: Yes. So that night is prom because every teen movie

626
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: has to end in prom. So Julie, Zach, and Fern

627
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: go to Prom. Zach rigs up the sound system to

628
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 2: play that recording of Courtney's confession over her prom queen

629
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: speech when she inevitably wins prom Queen and everyone hears

630
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: this and they're like, oh my god, Courtney is such

631
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: a bitch from murdering Liz, and they're throwing their corsages

632
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: and stuff at her in a scene that reminds me

633
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,479
Speaker 2: of Serce Lanister in Game of Thrones, like, oh, Wow,

634
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: I don't remember what happens in that show, even though

635
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: I've watched every episode, but she's been disgraced as queen

636
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: or something, and so everyone's like throwing stuff at her

637
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 2: as she walks through the town naked, and I was like, hmm,

638
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 2: it's like that.

639
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 3: It's like that. I was thinking of the aesthetic of

640
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: that looks a lot like the cover of that whole album.

641
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: M Yeah, Live through This. Yes, And actually Courtney is

642
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 4: named after Courtney Love, according to Darren, So okay, Darren,

643
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: maybe that's on purpose.

644
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: I see you, Darren.

645
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 4: It's obviously also very Carrie, isn't it very Carey?

646
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah? God, I mean, Caitlyne. I know you hate a

647
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: prom scene. This one worked for me, though at least

648
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 3: it ended. I hate when the prompt scenes when they end, well,

649
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 3: I'm bored when they end terribly. I like, Yeah, I.

650
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 2: Don't automatically hate any movie that ends in prom or

651
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: any movie that ends in a wedding. I know, I

652
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: like bring it up a lot, but it's more that

653
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: I hate that it's become a trope because writers don't

654
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: have enough imagination to think of another way to end

655
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 2: a movie. But if there's like narrative purpose for it,

656
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: or it makes sense in the context of the story.

657
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: Fine, in the context of all that is.

658
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: But the point here is that Julie got her ass,

659
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: and Courtney is disgraced and her empire is over the.

660
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: End, and you're just not supposed to think about like,

661
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: so are Julie and Marcy on the hook for this

662
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: at all?

663
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: I don't don't know, doesn't matter, I guess, yeah, but

664
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: that's the movie. So let's take another quick break and

665
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: we'll come back to discuss.

666
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: And we're back. Yeah, where do we want to start?

667
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 3: What's jumping out?

668
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 4: I feel like there's so many ways to cut this cookie.

669
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 4: I don't know. I forgot how bizarre it is, just visually,

670
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: like the way it's edited, the way the dialogue is.

671
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 4: There's so many things about it that are very unique

672
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 4: and that was fun to watch.

673
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: It's more visually stylized than a typical teen comedy.

674
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess it owes something to Heather's for all

675
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 4: of that, like this overstylized costume and the bizarre affected speech.

676
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: I think a lot of this movie kind of doesn't work,

677
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 4: but it's almost got like so many other things that

678
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 4: are so great that they kind of balanced themselves out.

679
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 4: But I can imagine watching this, especially if you're not

680
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 4: like queer or have never really been in any way

681
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 4: exposed to queer stuff, that you might just be like,

682
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 4: this is a terrible movie. This sucks. I don't feel

683
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 4: that way, but I can kind of understand why you might, Right.

684
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, like I feel like a

685
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: lot of what was helpful, like just learning more about

686
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 3: Darren Stein and like he was first of all, in

687
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 3: his twenties when he made this movie, which always makes

688
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: me feel very depressed about my own life. But this

689
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 3: is the second movie. He had made another movie called

690
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 3: I Believe Sparkler before this, and was very inspired by Heathers,

691
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: even though years on he was like, who's that what?

692
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: And I don't know. He's like an openly queer filmmaker

693
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 3: in the nineties, which was not a common thing. And

694
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 3: going back into it, there's two oral histories. One was

695
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: in Vice, one was in Entertainment Weekly. I'm mostly pulling

696
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 3: from the Vice one since it is kind of redundant

697
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: between the two, but the fact that you know in

698
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 3: Rose McGowan sort of speaks to this point that he

699
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: was sort of pigeonholed as a queer filmmaker and like

700
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: sort of is like, oh, well, he's like on the Fringes,

701
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 3: But really the only reason that that was was because

702
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: he was openly gay at a time where it was

703
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: just less common to be. So I don't know. I mean, like,

704
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 3: I can appreciate where he's coming from the movie looks amazing,

705
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 3: and there's things I don't know. I wanted to get

706
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: your opinions on this where I kept going back and

707
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: forth on like I wish I knew more about these characters,

708
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 3: But then I feel like, do I wish I knew

709
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: more about these characters? I'm not sure because it's like

710
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 3: the Courtney example of like she is just absolutely evil.

711
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 3: We don't know why, we don't know how she got there,

712
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: we don't know how she maintains it, but she just is.

713
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: And I'm like, do I want more? I don't know.

714
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: There's movies where you get more and I like them,

715
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 3: but I don't know what did she think of, like

716
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: how the characters are set up, because you just get

717
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: so little about their lives outside of this situation.

718
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 4: I would say, Yeah, they're all kind of archetypes, aren't they.

719
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 4: They're like caricatures their art. They're not like anyone you

720
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 4: actually know. And I saw a quote from Rose McGowan

721
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 4: saying that, you know, if this movie were made now,

722
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 4: you would have Courtney's backstory and she wouldn't be allowed

723
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 4: to just be evil for no reason. It would have

724
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 4: to be like the story behind it. And so I

725
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: kind of like that she's just a villain just for

726
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 4: villain's sake, and it's all quite cartoony. But then the

727
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 4: movie also tries to give you some emotion old beats,

728
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 4: which then don't work, I think, because these characters aren't

729
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 4: kind of real, And so like the relationship that Julie

730
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 4: ends up having with Zach, you're like, what the hell

731
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 4: is this about the scene where she's like at the

732
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 4: pool and she's thinking about Liz, were you friends? Because

733
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: I don't know, it seems like the day she died

734
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 4: you started dating someone. So I don't know how sincere

735
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 4: your relationship really was. Yeah, So there's kind of problems

736
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 4: as a result of these characters being kind of underdeveloped,

737
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 4: But then there's also benefits to it as well, which

738
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 4: is kind of the cartooniness of it, I think, right.

739
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 3: I was also thrown by the like Liz and Julie

740
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: were best friends because and I feel like it's stated

741
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 3: after that scene too, where she's like I think she

742
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: tells Zach, you know I was closest with Liz. You're

743
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 3: like news to me.

744
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 2: Didn't know right well, because Fern Mayo's voiceovers like Courtney

745
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: and Liz were best friends, but Courtney hated her actually

746
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: because she was so perfect and sweet and it's just

747
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: like what is going on here? And then to me,

748
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: Julie felt kind of all over the place where you

749
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: think she's gonna be a Courtney type in the sense

750
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: that she's mean and dismissive of her peers who are

751
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: less popular and have less social status, because you see

752
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: that image of them walking down the hall at the beginning,

753
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: and Fern Mayo has like dropped her books and they're

754
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: scattered all over the floor, and you see Julie just

755
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: like stepping over her very callously. But then as the

756
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: story goes, you find out that they used to be

757
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: friends in elementary school and they'll say hi to each other,

758
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: where Courtney will be like, get out of the bathroom,

759
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: this is our space, and like is like extra cruel

760
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 2: to Fern, And then you know Julie is the one

761
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: with the moral compass, and she's the one who's like,

762
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna be a part of this. We should

763
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: tell someone. She's the one who tries to be friend Fern.

764
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: So I didn't really have a handle. It feels like

765
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: a little inconsistent in the way that she was characterized.

766
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: But maybe that's just like part of this satire again,

767
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 2: like satire kind of in this case at least like

768
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: muddles the story and the characterization.

769
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: I feel, yeah, I was confused by jul I think

770
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: Julie's character maybe worked the least well for me because

771
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 3: I agree with the crystal like Courtney being of Vartex

772
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: of evil like at least it didn't really ch like

773
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: whatever the most evil thing to do in the scene

774
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: is Courtney is going to do that, or perhaps think

775
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: of something so evil you yourself could not conceive of it,

776
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: like all of the horrible things she does to Liz

777
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 3: immediately after her death. But Julie, Yeah, Julie being positioned

778
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 3: as like quote unquote the good girl. I mean, there

779
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: was like good girl, bad girl broad tropes that were presented,

780
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: but I didn't feel like really, I feel like they

781
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: were just presented, it didn't even feel like they were

782
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: really being satirized, where like Courtney is hyper sexual and

783
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: kinky and she's the world's worst person, and then when

784
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: it comes up later in the movie that actually Liz

785
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 3: was a virgin, Like, I don't know, I just feel

786
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: like it's these classic ways of characterizing who is good

787
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 3: and who is bad and how it's connected to promiscuity

788
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 3: in a way that like some parts of the movie

789
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 3: felt like I feel like the Fern Violette story that

790
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: felt like clearly satirically, you know what he's going for.

791
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: But there were other ways that the girls were talked about,

792
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 3: or like their morality was evaluated that felt like really

793
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: undercooked and just here's this trope the good girl was

794
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 3: a virgin and the bad girl has a lot of

795
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: sex and those elements, and I feel like Julie would

796
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 3: often sort of be involved in those if like she's

797
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 3: dating a nice guy from the drama club, she's good

798
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 3: or even though if you like like you're both saying

799
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 3: if you look at what Julie does, you're like, is

800
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 3: she good?

801
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 4: Like it's that's kind of one of the issues when

802
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 4: you're making a movie that's very pastiche e and it's

803
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: like referencing Grease, and it's referencing Rocky Horror, and it's

804
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: referencing Heathers And you know, how do you avoid those pitfalls?

805
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: Right?

806
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: You know, you're winking and nodding to those things, but

807
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: you're also trying, I don't know, how do you make

808
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: it also fresh or avoid the yeah, the slut shaming

809
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 4: ideas or making a movie that's almost entirely white in

810
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine. You know, lots of things like that

811
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 4: that you're like, you forgot to think about this.

812
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: You know.

813
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's just elements of it. I mean, it's

814
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 3: like he was like twenty eight when he made the movie.

815
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 3: But it does feel kind of undercooked in a lot

816
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 3: of areas or just like kind of confusing, where it

817
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: felt like the like style was like eclipsing me understanding

818
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: what was happening in the story, which also, if I'm

819
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 3: not watching a movie for this show is totally fine,

820
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, I did find it a little tricky. The

821
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: stuff that did work for me was, you know, and

822
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: it's like a very dark view of teenage girls. But

823
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: the like narrative of like Fern of like how much

824
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 3: are you willing to compromise yourself to be socially accepted,

825
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 3: and like, I mean that, I felt like the style

826
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: and the script were like cooking together. I don't know

827
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 3: what did everyone make a Fern she's evil. I think

828
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: she's also evil, and I feel like she and Julie

829
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 3: kind of scooed out of this story like we did

830
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 3: it and you're like, you guys are also terrible, like yeh,

831
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 3: friend can be on the hook for withholding information from

832
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 3: the authorities.

833
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 2: Right and it, Yeah, it seems like she's just as

834
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: corrupt as Courtney potentially, but just like hasn't been given

835
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: the power and social status to enact any horrible evil things.

836
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, she's seduced by the idea of popularity and

837
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: status and she doesn't hesitate to take it and only

838
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: when she's exposed as like being a fraud and oh

839
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: she's actually Fern Mayo and she's kind of left with

840
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 2: no choice but to And she doesn't even like revert

841
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: back to her old style. She like maintains the esthetic,

842
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: at least of Violet.

843
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm keeping the die job, I'm kissing the

844
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 3: die job.

845
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: They kept complimenting her hair, like different characters, and I'm like,

846
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that was a popular style in

847
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 2: the late nineties, but I was like, I.

848
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 3: Feel like this movie is like intentionally kind of takes

849
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: place out of time because it's like the outfit we

850
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 3: see Fern in at the beginning of the movie felt

851
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: the closest to like actual nineties like grunge aesthetic closed.

852
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 4: When had never been kissed come out.

853
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 2: I think also ninety nine.

854
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: Okay, because I feel like Drew Barrymore is basically dressed

855
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 4: as Violette. Everyone's like, everyone's like, what the fuck you

856
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 4: wear it, which is a more accurate take on what

857
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 4: they're all dressed. Like like imagine seeing a girl in

858
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 4: a hot pink rubber skirt at your high school. You'd

859
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 4: be like, this is weird. Yeah, but I love I mean,

860
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 4: obviously the costuming is incredible, incredible, but it helps to

861
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 4: show that like this isn't real, right, right, what you

862
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 4: were saying about Violette though, Like I totally agree. I

863
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of handwaving, like she's learned her

864
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 4: lesson and now she's good again. We don't actually see

865
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 4: any of that character development take place. She just gets

866
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 4: knocked over and has a bump on her head and

867
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 4: like that's enough, and we're supposed to just accept that

868
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 4: she's like learned her lesson, I guess, right, But I

869
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 4: think I think she is a really interesting character, and

870
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of the drag queen in

871
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 4: her and I can see a lot of myself in her,

872
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 4: where when you're a gay man and you're twenty, you

873
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 4: idolize the Courtney and you think that's who I want

874
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: to be because I want revenge and power on all

875
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 4: of the people who've wronged me as a weird teen.

876
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 4: And then you realize that you're actually the Marsie and

877
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 4: you're not doing anything particularly original. And then you realize

878
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 4: you're actually the Fern, and you've like created this thing

879
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 4: around yourself and you've got to kind of work to

880
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 4: figure out what the real you is under that. I

881
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of like probably a lot of

882
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 4: like trans allegory in there as well, but it's something

883
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 4: that I kind of definitely relate to as like someone

884
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 4: who's actively built an alter ego. M right, and then

885
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 4: you have to kind of take a look at that

886
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 4: alter ego you've built and be like, what is that

887
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 4: informed by and like, is that okay, have I just

888
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: absorbed a lot of misogyny and like I'm now projecting it?

889
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 4: Or is it like is there some kind of balance

890
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 4: between all of those things.

891
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's tricky because, like, on one hand, because social

892
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: status is like such an important currency for so many teens,

893
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: because of the emphasis we have placed on that cultural

894
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: you understand to some degree why Fern would be seduced

895
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: by that and intrigued by that, and the context for

896
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: why she ends up doing it is obviously like, oh god,

897
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: it's not worth it. You're covering up a murder. But

898
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: because this movie is very heightened and again fantasyish and

899
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: dream like and satirical, you're like, okay, I feel like

900
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: it works knowing the tone of the movie, but it

901
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: does make it hard to then talk about her or

902
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 2: the characters.

903
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 3: I wonder I'd be curious to see like previous drafts

904
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: of this script because it seems like it changed a lot.

905
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: It used to be more overtly like Hoarry, and then

906
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 3: it sort of transformed into a black comedy. I feel

907
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: like Darren Stein couldn't decide which way. The ending for

908
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 3: Fern was really confusing for me because it's like, if

909
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: the core message of this movie is the very dark,

910
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: like anyone could be seduced by Courtney's offer, and that

911
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 3: like within every teenager is the capacity to like turn

912
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 3: into a Violette, then okay, stick with that, because at

913
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 3: the end it felt like Julie and Fern had turned

914
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 3: into the good guys in a way that like didn't

915
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 3: really track for me. I feel like it would have

916
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 3: been more interesting and still a consistent move at the

917
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 3: tone of the movie is to like have another beat

918
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 3: after the prom and have them all realize like, oh,

919
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 3: like right, we're all fucked. And speaking to your point, Crystal,

920
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: I'm curious, like what Fern is gonna do now in

921
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 3: terms of like does she want to maintain this persona

922
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 3: It seems like she does to some extent. What does

923
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 3: that mean for her? And like in whatever broad satirical way,

924
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 3: But it was I just felt at the end like

925
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 3: it was turned into a very clean ending where it's like, Okay,

926
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 3: we've we've killed the villain basically and not the Courtney

927
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: doesn't have a coming. She absolutely does, but everyone else

928
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: sort of went under examined that point was emphasized versus

929
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: having a clean dismount for anyone else, and Marcy too.

930
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 3: I thought Marcy was for the most part, she's not

931
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 3: really allowed to do much except be like ha ha

932
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: yeah exactly, which is her? Like she's like the Gretchen Wieners,

933
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 3: I guess at the operation, right, But you get one

934
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: scene of background for her, weirdly, which like her single

935
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:39,919
Speaker 3: down interesting. I was like, more of whatever that was, please, Like, yeah,

936
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 3: can we talk about that scene? Because of all of

937
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 3: the girls, to get a family background scene, I mean,

938
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 3: you do see Julie's mom in passing, but like very briefly,

939
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 3: but you get a whole scene with Marcy and her

940
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: famously single dad and it's a really good, really.

941
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 2: Weird scene yet almost doesn't make sense within the context

942
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: of the rest of the story. But I was like,

943
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: it makes her look worse, but right, I guess it

944
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 2: characterizes Marcie a bit more. But yeah, I was like,

945
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:18,399
Speaker 2: why is this scene here? Exactly? Similar to like why

946
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: is the scene where Courtney makes her jock boyfriend, yeah,

947
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 2: give oral sex to a popsicle? I guess to show

948
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: how twisted and sick she is.

949
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 3: She kind of coerces him into doing it.

950
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: Too, Yeah she does.

951
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like.

952
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 3: This further proves that this movie is meant to be

953
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 3: consumed as vibes only, because why we cut from that

954
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 3: scene with Marcy and her dad to Liz emerging from

955
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 3: the pool and apparently she and Julie were best friends,

956
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 3: and you're like, huh what Anyways, I really enjoyed the

957
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: scene with Marcy and her dad. It felt like it

958
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 3: was so weird that she sort of the like lowest

959
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 3: ranking character on the like character I need to know

960
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 3: more about tier gets this scene. But I really enjoyed it.

961
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 3: I mean, the dad being like I was watching Oprah

962
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 3: and I think you might be a follower and she's like,

963
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 3: shut up, dad, Like it was cool. I don't know,

964
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 3: Like having that scene made me realize and just think,

965
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 3: like how the movies this movie is compared to has

966
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: more of that and has more of the like the

967
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: heightened entire society. And like then I was thinking of

968
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: the funeral scene at Heather's. Why didn't we get to

969
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 3: go to Liz's memorial, Like just stuff that you think

970
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: would be there that just sort of happens off screen

971
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 3: and isn't really referenced.

972
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 4: Well, it's possible that this entire movie takes place in

973
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 4: like three days.

974
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: I think, so true.

975
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe the memorial hasn't happened.

976
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's very hard to say how much

977
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 4: time has passed. Like it's simultaneously been enough time for

978
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 4: Violet to become the queen of high school, but all

979
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 4: so like not enough time for there to have been

980
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 4: a memorial or like a proper investigation. I don't know.

981
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 4: It's confusing. It's stretchy movie logic time.

982
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeaheah. I'm sure someone's made a seven hour YouTube video

983
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: about it, Like I've cracked the timeline and I would

984
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: watch that.

985
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 4: What do we think about Courtney and that sex scene

986
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 4: with her boyfriend, not the Marilyn mensenone.

987
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 3: I agree with Caylin. I don't know why it's there.

988
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 3: I mean, I get it. It's like making the point

989
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 3: of like she is hyper sexual, and that is like

990
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 3: a part of why I feel like we're kind of

991
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 3: encouraged to like celebrate and judge her at the same time,

992
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 3: because it is fun watching Rosmagowan be evil. Yeah, but

993
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 3: also I think she is like coercing the other character.

994
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the function of the scene is

995
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: to reinforce how coercive she is not only with her

996
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: like girlfriends, but with her like hetero man partner, and

997
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: he he doesn't protest really, so it almost is suggesting maybe, like,

998
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: look at the power and control she has over everyone.

999
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 2: We already know that, though, So I don't really know

1000
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,720
Speaker 2: why we need to see another scene.

1001
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't, like, I'm not like upset about

1002
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 3: a sex scene itself, but yeah, the way it's presented

1003
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 3: is like. The thing that I liked about Courtney's relationship,

1004
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 3: if you could call it that, with that guy, is

1005
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: that she is very clear headed about what high school

1006
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 3: relationships are and she's like, he I don't care about

1007
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 3: what happens to him in forty eight hours. He is

1008
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 3: a status symbol for me. That's and I feel like

1009
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: that was at least something I don't think I've seen

1010
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 3: a lot in teen movies, is like teen girls in

1011
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: these like very movie hetero relationships, treating the guy like

1012
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 3: garbage an accessory. Yeah, yeah, true, So there's that.

1013
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 4: This was the first time I watched it, and I

1014
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 4: wondered if Courtney was maybe gay.

1015
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 3: Interesting.

1016
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 4: I mean, Fern is very maybe gay, I agree, yeah,

1017
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 4: but maybe Courtney too, And like, but maybe she hasn't.

1018
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 4: She's even like deeper in the closet in a way. Yeah,

1019
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 4: but like the creating of a woman and using sex

1020
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: as like a tool rather than like seeming to have

1021
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 4: any real interest in using a man as like a

1022
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 4: social status tool. I don't know, there's there's kind of

1023
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 4: lots of that. And then like having her own fallis

1024
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 4: with that popsicle.

1025
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like this is this is.

1026
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 4: Really gay for Courtney, this whole scene.

1027
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1028
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, with the dynamic with Fern and Courtney too, where

1029
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 3: I mean Courtney is obsessed with control no matter what.

1030
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 3: But it's like when her creation is out of her control,

1031
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 3: she that's where it seems like it becomes personal for

1032
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 3: her in a way that we rarely see things be personal. Yeah,

1033
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 3: I buy into that theory. And also, yeah, Fern is

1034
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 3: like heavily. I mean, I don't even know if you

1035
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 3: could really call it coating. It's not like I don't know,

1036
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 3: I mean, we don't see if Fern have the only

1037
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 3: love interest she pursues that is a man, is because

1038
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 3: Courtney told her to do it. It wasn't because she

1039
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: had any actual interest. She was just doing what her

1040
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 3: Frankenstein said to do. Right.

1041
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, she's telling Detective Pam Greer like I used to

1042
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 2: smell Liz's hair and look at the birthmarks on the

1043
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: back of her neck and salmon, salmon and the sea creatures,

1044
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 2: and so you know, it seems like she's very like

1045
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 2: amorously infatuated with Liz.

1046
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: Which is like a fine I like that. You know,

1047
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 3: everyone in this movie is evil, so it's not like

1048
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 3: she's being set up to be a queer villain necessarily,

1049
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 3: but that, just like that also just gave me a

1050
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 3: story problems where I was like, why wasn't she more

1051
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 3: upset that Liz died if she was with her?

1052
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 4: Yes, but it's the constant gay conundrum of like am

1053
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 4: I in love with you? Or do I want to

1054
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 4: be you? And so someone's now giving you you've only

1055
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 4: got one choice left because she's dead, and someone's saying, well,

1056
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 4: you could be her, you could be Well, I guess

1057
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 4: we'll try it.

1058
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: The next best thing.

1059
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, brutal. I mean those line reads that Judy Greer

1060
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 3: gives Detective Pam gear Wow, two geers. Yeah, the Greers,

1061
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 3: two Geers, one room about you know, like their version

1062
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 3: of It's Chinatown Jake, Like they're like it's high school.

1063
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 3: No One is a Friend? Really good reference, Janie, thank you.

1064
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 3: I've never seen that movie, but I do. Let me

1065
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 3: be clear, I haven't seen If you've.

1066
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 2: Seen Who Framed Roger Rabbit, you've basically seen Chinatown.

1067
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 3: Great, then I've that. I have definitely seen then I've

1068
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 3: seen it one hundred times. But yeah, I mean, like

1069
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 3: you get those lines of like is anyone in high

1070
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 3: school really a friend? Which is a very dark I

1071
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 3: don't know, like all the click movies have to sort

1072
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 3: of abide by that logic, and it's especially if you

1073
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 3: like had a hard time in high school, is very

1074
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 3: cathartic and fun.

1075
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: That relates to a separate, kind of broader issue. I

1076
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 2: have with the idea of like mainstream movies about teen

1077
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: girl friendship, because so many of them have a premise of,

1078
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: like they're very mean and cruel to each other, if

1079
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: not violent and murder each other. And this is one

1080
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: of those movies. You know, Obviously Mean Girls is another one,

1081
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 2: Obviously Heathers is another one. They all exist in the

1082
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 2: same like they're all kind of inspired by each other.

1083
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 2: And then you've got like more contemporary examples like Do

1084
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: Revenge and I'm just sort of waiting for teen girl

1085
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: movies that center on their friendship, because another version of

1086
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: teen girl movies is their hetero love interest.

1087
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 3: I mean, they do exist. So you've got your Sisterhood

1088
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,919
Speaker 3: of the Traveling Pants, you've got your guys, like yeah.

1089
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: But those people are just kind of few and far between.

1090
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: Like I'm always like, why aren't there more stories that

1091
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 2: celebrate female friendship and don't have them be outwardly cruel

1092
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: and or violent to each other?

1093
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I mean, I agree with you,

1094
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 3: but I do think those movies are out there, and

1095
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 3: I find them more boring.

1096
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,919
Speaker 2: Well, there aren't enough of them. There could be more

1097
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: fun ones, and like they could be in different genres.

1098
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 2: They could be fun like adventure movies, they could be

1099
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: you know anything. I guess there's quite a few horror

1100
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 2: movies to that effect. But again, like ones that center

1101
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 2: on friendship and like girls working together, and sure there's

1102
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: gonna be misunderstandings or arguments along the way. That's how

1103
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: friendship works.

1104
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to see Harriet this by this weekend. I'm

1105
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 3: so excited. Oh nice.

1106
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 4: Basically you're pitching this movie, but it turns into weekend

1107
01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 4: at Bernie's.

1108
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 2: Yes, actually a movie I've never seen also, but I

1109
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 2: know the premise.

1110
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 4: They just have to they have to get Liz to

1111
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 4: graduation hijin.

1112
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they gotta get her to troum.

1113
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 7: She's got to win from Queen anyways, just put some

1114
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 7: sunglasses on, a scarf around her neck, a little cravat

1115
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 7: if you will, and uh yeah, I mean more dark

1116
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 7: high school comedy is revolving around functional, well not functional,

1117
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 7: but like common goal friendships between teen girls.

1118
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 3: Like I think one thing that I wish, I don't know,

1119
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 3: if I could change one thing about Job Breaker, I

1120
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 3: would replace Zach with another teenage girl like Plant, a

1121
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 3: character that Julie can become friends with, someone who can

1122
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 3: be you know, like it plant her earlier in the movie,

1123
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 3: Does fern have one friend who she's completely bailed on

1124
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 3: who is now like where the fuck is Fernad and

1125
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 3: Julie can connect with her, Like I feel like there

1126
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 3: is space to sort of address what you're not completely

1127
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 3: because Courtney is going to Courtney and Marcy's going to

1128
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 3: Marcy all that, but to have at least a positive

1129
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 3: connection between teen girls in this movie, or a functional

1130
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: connection between teen girls, because I agree that like Zach,

1131
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 3: I don't mind being in a world where it's like

1132
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 3: everyone hates each other and its evil. But if that

1133
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 3: world is if the only person who is not that

1134
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 3: is a random boyfriend, then I feel like you've kind

1135
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 3: of got a problem right where because Zach all of

1136
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 3: a sudden, has a ton of agency and is like

1137
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 3: the moral center of the movie, and almost everyone else

1138
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: you see is an evil woman, Like you're just like, well,

1139
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 3: what is this? You know, I feel like replacing him

1140
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 3: with a teen girl that Julie can genuinely connect with

1141
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 3: instead of just being told that she was Liz's friend.

1142
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 3: Like we're told about positive connections between these girls, but

1143
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 3: we never actually see it and it never has any

1144
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 3: narrative consequence, right.

1145
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it still bugs me that he's the one

1146
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: who like rigs up the whole sound system thing, Like

1147
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 2: that's not his victory to accomplish, Like he again, he's

1148
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 2: just like this random dude. And to give the boy

1149
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 2: like a like technical technology thing to do, kind of suggesting, well,

1150
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: girls don't know how to do technology. It just annoys me.

1151
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe the problem I feel with this movie, which

1152
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 4: is also its strength. You know, we've talked a lot

1153
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 4: about how these are kind of cartoon characters, and therefore

1154
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 4: they're kind of missing what you've been looking for, Caitlin,

1155
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 4: which is like deeper connection. And I think that's basically

1156
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 4: going to be a limitation of a man writing a

1157
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 4: movie about teen girls. This is true, and he's got

1158
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 4: a leg up because he's gay, and so he's kind

1159
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 4: of hitting some of the marks, but he's not hitting

1160
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 4: all of the marks. And I think there is a

1161
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 4: bit of a feeling that I come away with with

1162
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 4: this movie that all of the women in this are

1163
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 4: kind of being treated like barbies or dolls for him.

1164
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 4: They're acting out these tropes and these scenes and these

1165
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 4: ideas that he's got, but there's a little bit missing from,

1166
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 4: you know, the meat, And I think that's what makes

1167
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 4: me feel a little bit of a lack. On the

1168
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 4: other hand, like I don't know anyone other than a

1169
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 4: gay man who could write a Courtney, And it's like

1170
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 4: she is a gay man's revenge fantasy, power fantasy. She's

1171
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 4: like the Frankenfurter. She's got so much to her that

1172
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 4: I'm so glad exists, and it's like fun to see

1173
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 4: villains like that who exist. So I don't know that

1174
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 4: I necessarily want anything to change. But like, as you say,

1175
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 4: it's almost like a different movie made by a different

1176
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 4: person would solve some of these problems and potentially over

1177
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 4: correct some of the good things.

1178
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's tricky. I do feel like it's possible

1179
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 3: to make movies in the like dark teen comedy John

1180
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 3: that avoid some of these mistakes. But I think like

1181
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 3: viewing it as playing with Barbies actually kind of does

1182
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 3: even with the dream logic aspects, this could be staged

1183
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 3: by barbies. And yeah, there's like certain parts where it's

1184
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 3: like Rose McGowan is just going like full Joan Crawford

1185
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 3: and it's great. I don't know, I don't know what

1186
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 3: I want this movie to do that it's not doing.

1187
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel like a movie that can really go

1188
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 3: another way. But yeah, I agree with you, Caitlin that

1189
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 3: like having some sort of functional or just like more

1190
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 3: layered relationship between women, because I would say, like Mean

1191
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 3: Girls has a lot of the similar problems of this,

1192
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 3: but at least we like do understand why these friendships

1193
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 3: aren't functioning and that they're not like just inherently evil.

1194
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,439
Speaker 3: It's like you understand what the communication breakdown is between

1195
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,479
Speaker 3: Katie and Janis or like whatever it is, which does

1196
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,439
Speaker 3: just feel like something that comes from experience.

1197
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 4: Probably Yeah, and like more money and more time with

1198
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 4: this script and right edits and a big red marker

1199
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 4: and lots of that. You kind of do all of

1200
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 4: that to Jowbreaker and you get mean girls.

1201
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 3: Yeah right. I don't know, I feel that because it's

1202
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 3: like I really did enjoy this movie and I know

1203
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 3: how like beloved it is, and it's like a classic

1204
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 3: like bombed at the box office and then found its

1205
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 3: footing at sleepovers, which is like as it should be.

1206
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 3: It is tricky. I don't know. The biggest swing for

1207
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 3: this movie that I was like was that necessary? Was

1208
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 3: just the fundamental plot element of like we need to

1209
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 3: make it seem as if she's been raped. Yeah, because

1210
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 3: again it's like, yes, that is something that is the

1211
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 3: most evil character in the world, who is Courtney would do?

1212
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 3: But again, it just like makes all of the other

1213
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 3: characters that we're supposed to be rooting for look really terrible.

1214
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 3: And like I understand why Darren Stein is taking that swing,

1215
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 3: because it is like it's an edge lord writer decision.

1216
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 3: I feel like, of like, what is the most extreme,

1217
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 3: potentially offensive thing I could make this character do. But

1218
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 3: I it could have been literally anything else. It could

1219
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 3: have been something else bad. I just didn't I don't

1220
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 3: know that decision just like didn't sit well with me

1221
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:23,719
Speaker 3: at all.

1222
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 2: Me either, because it's movies like this that contribute to

1223
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 2: the perpetuation of the idea that reports of rape are

1224
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 2: actually often false and made up and you can't trust

1225
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 2: anyone who says they've been raped, when in reality, it

1226
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,839
Speaker 2: is not very common for a rape allegation to be false,

1227
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 2: and it is statistically far more likely for a rape

1228
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 2: to happen and not be reported than it is for

1229
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 2: a rape to be reported and have it be a

1230
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 2: false accusation. But there's all this media like this movie

1231
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 2: that supports this idea that rape accusations tend to be

1232
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 2: bogus and that has like really horrible real world consequences,

1233
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,440
Speaker 2: And so that is the big thing for this movie

1234
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 2: that rubs me the wrong way. I feel like, kind

1235
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 2: of similarly Courtney, and again, this is like the evil

1236
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 2: character having this behavior and having these ideas, but that

1237
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 2: she tends to kind of conflate kink with rape. And

1238
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 2: I can't really tell how the movie feels about it,

1239
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: or if it's just like, oh, this is the evil character.

1240
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 2: But because to me, that distinction isn't very clear as

1241
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 2: far as like how the movie feels about it, and

1242
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 2: that should be a clearer distinction. I don't know. It

1243
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 2: just we've covered a lot of movies from this exact year.

1244
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 2: It's a big year for movies for lots of movies,

1245
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 2: and then specifically teen movies that have like at least

1246
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:12,520
Speaker 2: one fundamental, highly problematic element. I'm thinking, like cruel intentions

1247
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 2: and she's all that and never been kissed and stuff

1248
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 2: like that. But you'll have characters in those movies who

1249
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 2: are just dropping very of the era, like casual homophobia,

1250
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 2: casual racism, and the movie's not challenging it, and it's

1251
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, this is just reflection of the culture

1252
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,600
Speaker 2: of the time. In this movie, you do have characters

1253
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 2: making disparaging remarks about like girls how much they weigh

1254
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 2: and having eating disorders, and disparaging remarks about queer people,

1255
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 2: about people with disabilities, but I think those are always

1256
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 2: like the evil, mean girl characters, and the satire of

1257
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: the movie I feel like suggests, oh, well, the movie

1258
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 2: is not endorsing these attitudes. But I don't feel the

1259
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 2: same way for how it handles this like false rape

1260
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,719
Speaker 2: accusation component of the movie.

1261
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just feel like he was not the writer

1262
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 3: to even attempt something this extreme, just based on how

1263
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 3: it's executed and the fact that, like it could have

1264
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 3: been something else and the movie would not have had

1265
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 3: to change, right, I think that honestly, going for a

1266
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 3: more Weekend at Bernie's gag there is like still tonally consistent,

1267
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,679
Speaker 3: can still be really dark and would not yeah, make

1268
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,839
Speaker 3: a pretty like broad negative statement about rape allegations, especially

1269
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:40,759
Speaker 3: in a movie that you know, it's not that anyone knew,

1270
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 3: but that prominently features Marilyn Manson. You're just like, ah

1271
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 3: yea yui. Yeah, feels like a good reminder. Yeah, I

1272
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,520
Speaker 3: just wish that they had done a Weekend at Bernie's

1273
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 3: style gag instead of that.

1274
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, It's like so many of the choices in this

1275
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 4: movie are silly or campy or over the top or

1276
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 4: like you're clearly kind not meant to take it that seriously,

1277
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 4: and then they throw in this like actually, really, I

1278
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,719
Speaker 4: don't know why I feel that like a death is worse,

1279
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 4: but it doesn't feel as bad because it's it's also

1280
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:15,240
Speaker 4: portrayed in this really silly way, and that actually Courtney's

1281
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 4: sex scene with Marilyn Manson, it's like all of that,

1282
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 4: it is all hard to watch. And yeah, maybe maybe

1283
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 4: Darren wasn't quite the right person to be taking on

1284
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 4: that topic, but.

1285
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's like this isn't like a specific

1286
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 3: problem with Darren Stein. I mean, like Kitle, like you

1287
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 3: were saying, in this year alone, there were a lot

1288
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 3: of big swings and teen movies that just aged spectacularly bad,

1289
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 3: and this is the one that this one does exactly.

1290
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 3: I do think I wish that Darren Stein. I mean,

1291
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 3: he should have been directing more stuff. I'm kind of

1292
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 3: surprised that we haven't seen as much from him, and

1293
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:53,519
Speaker 3: that always kind of especially when you have a marginalized director.

1294
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 3: I'm always kind of like side eyeing, why haven't they

1295
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 3: made more? When they made Sure it didn't do great

1296
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 3: at the box office, but it came this big iconic movie.

1297
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 3: And you know, whenever if you have a straight white director,

1298
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 3: how many flops are they permitted to unleash upon the world.

1299
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 3: I don't know what this story there is. Maybe he

1300
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 3: took a step back. I'm not totally sure, but I

1301
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 3: always do just kind of side eye that kind of thing.

1302
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 4: Totally, especially when he's clearly got so many ideas. Yeah,

1303
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 4: so many choices are made in this movie that like

1304
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,280
Speaker 4: it needed someone creative and visionary to do. You know,

1305
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 4: the way the sound editing is is just like one example,

1306
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 4: it's like someone was really like creatively running on both

1307
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:36,640
Speaker 4: cylinders when they made this movie.

1308
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 2: There's so many goofy like yeah, sound effected during like

1309
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:42,480
Speaker 2: scene transitions.

1310
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 3: And this is the second movie we've covered recently that.

1311
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 3: We also recently covered sixteen Candles, which he does side

1312
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:51,600
Speaker 3: like the John Hughes teen movies as an influence. But

1313
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 3: we just covered sixteen Candles the other day for the

1314
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 3: Matreon and there is boy is the Howard Stern soundboard

1315
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 3: out on that movie kind of on this one too. Yeah,

1316
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 3: the sprayings. There's like one time when the jock is

1317
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 3: like learingly looking over at Courtney and you hear like

1318
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 3: some creepy I don't know noise.

1319
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 4: That could work. I wasn't going to try that.

1320
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 3: I've seen Roger arrive at one hundred times and it

1321
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 3: just kind of comes to me naturally.

1322
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 4: But even like the wooshes for like the wipes as well,

1323
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 4: so silly. Yeah, and the whole makeover scene, which is

1324
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 4: like something out of poor things like gothic Frankenstein in

1325
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 4: vibrant jawbreaker colors, Yeah, potions and spinning chairs and like, yeah,

1326
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 4: it's so psychedelic. It's really cool. So I totally agree. Basically,

1327
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,599
Speaker 4: he should have been allowed to do more and make more.

1328
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's like in his early fifties. I hope

1329
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:54,560
Speaker 3: that happens.

1330
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. There is a movie called GBF, which my friend

1331
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 4: actually wrote and Darren directed, which is kind of of

1332
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:04,639
Speaker 4: oh wow. Yes, it's almost the gay version of your

1333
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 4: teen movie, and it's got gay protagonists in high school

1334
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 4: and it's exploring the idea of popularity as well. But

1335
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 4: you don't need to imagine yourself as Courtney. You can

1336
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 4: just see yourself.

1337
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful thing.

1338
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 3: I remember hearing about that movie. I haven't seen it, though.

1339
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 2: It says for Gay Best Friend, right, yeah GBF. Yeah, yeah,

1340
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 2: I remember when it came out. I feel like it

1341
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 2: may be worth at least briefly acknowledging Rose McGowan and

1342
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 2: the history she has with being a turf where if

1343
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 2: anyone's not familiar. Back in twenty seventeen, she went on

1344
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 2: RuPaul's podcast and said some very turfy transphobic things. I

1345
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 2: didn't know that, although even before that I was reading

1346
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 2: that she a couple of years earlier said some remarks

1347
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 2: either too or about Caitlin Jenner that were also transphobic. Then,

1348
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 2: at a book event few months after this podcast appearance

1349
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 2: in early twenty eighteen, a trans woman confronted her about

1350
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 2: her remarks, and Rose McGowan told her to shut up

1351
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 2: and then proceeded to go on a transphobic rant. Sometime later,

1352
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:23,440
Speaker 2: she gave what I feel is not a great apology.

1353
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 2: Others might feel differently. You know, who of us can

1354
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:31,839
Speaker 2: actually know how a celebrity who has a very like public,

1355
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 2: performative kind of life how they actually feel personally. But

1356
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 2: I feel like she realized that being transphobic wasn't great

1357
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 2: for her image, so she walked back a lot of

1358
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,599
Speaker 2: her comments in order to restore her image. Or maybe

1359
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 2: she genuinely learned and listened and feels differently. We haven't

1360
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: really heard anything about it since, I don't think, because

1361
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 2: the following year it was when she was in the

1362
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 2: news again, but this time revolving around the Me Too movement.

1363
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that because I was not aware.

1364
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 2: Oh I remembered when it happened, So I like that

1365
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 2: was just in the back of my mind as I

1366
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 2: was watching the movie.

1367
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 4: I've just skimmed her apology from twenty nineteen. I don't

1368
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 4: know if that's the one you're referencing.

1369
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, from I think Pink News.

1370
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know it's not certainly not my apology

1371
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:27,679
Speaker 4: to accept, but I don't mind it. It's an apology.

1372
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,639
Speaker 4: But I am skimming while we're on the.

1373
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 2: In real time.

1374
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, I completely forgot all about that. Yeah, I

1375
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 4: mean she's put her foot in it a few times,

1376
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 4: I feel, yes, And she's also done a lot of

1377
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 4: really cool and brave stuff, so she's.

1378
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 2: A complicated figure. Well she has leave it at that,

1379
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 2: I suppose, yeah, she is. Do we have any other

1380
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 2: thoughts about the movie?

1381
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I mean I wanted to echo

1382
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 3: what Crystal said earlier and that like, this is a

1383
01:17:57,120 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 3: very white movie. I think the only people of color

1384
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 3: who have any I mean, it's really just Detective Pam

1385
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 3: Greer and she's doing a terrible job. And there's a

1386
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 3: Tatiana Ali character as a Tatiana Ali fan named Brenda,

1387
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 3: who appears for a hot second.

1388
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 2: Oh, she tries to befriend Violet.

1389
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 3: Yes, and she's just like, you're so awesome. Also, my

1390
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 3: name is Brenda, and then she's gone, your your.

1391
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 4: Like she was in Fresh Prince right.

1392
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she's a Titan of Nicked Knight to me.

1393
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 3: But yeah, outside of that, it is like a very

1394
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 3: very white movie in a way that is in no

1395
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 3: way necessary, Like not that it's ever necessary, but there's

1396
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 3: no like historical context. We have no idea where this

1397
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:44,599
Speaker 3: movie is necessarily taking place, Like it should be a

1398
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 3: more diverse world with a more diverse cast, and instead

1399
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 3: it is nineteen ninety nine, and these kinds of creative

1400
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 3: decisions were made all the time.

1401
01:18:55,520 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 2: Yes, as far as the Bechdel test goes, not a problem,

1402
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 2: not a problem, passes a lot. In fact, they're rarely

1403
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 2: talking about boys. They're almost always talking about how do

1404
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: we cover up the murder of our friend that we did?

1405
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,759
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna make you a star?

1406
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, why do we hate each other? Yeah?

1407
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:23,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is nice. I do appreciate that boys

1408
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 2: are not the center of their worlds, the way a

1409
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,760
Speaker 2: lot of media about teen girls like presents boys as

1410
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 2: being so much of their focus and every thing. But

1411
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 2: like the prom king character, this good looking jock boy

1412
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 2: is like an afterthought in most scenes if he appears

1413
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 2: at all, and the only time he gets prominently featured

1414
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 2: is when Courtney kind of forces him into filating a

1415
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 2: popsicle and you know, feel about that how you want.

1416
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,679
Speaker 3: But outside of Zach, though, I I mean, yeah, men

1417
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 3: really have no consequence in this world exactly, And that's

1418
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 3: a rare thing to see in a movie's fun.

1419
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 2: As far as our nipple scale, man, this is another

1420
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 2: one of those movies where I'm just like, I don't

1421
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 2: know two and a half. I'll just do again the

1422
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 2: backdol cast cheat code, which is just split the diffs,

1423
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:25,719
Speaker 2: split down the middle two point five. I appreciate its

1424
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 2: legacy as a cult movie with a following that is

1425
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 2: largely She's the A's and gays kind of thing. It

1426
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 2: does center women by and large. The women are misbehaving,

1427
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 2: and I do appreciate that. I like to see girls

1428
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 2: doing bad things sometimes.

1429
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 3: Wow, that's really brave stance to take.

1430
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 4: Girls gone wild if you will.

1431
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it when girls go wild.

1432
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, rarely behaved women history make make said somebody.

1433
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:05,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, Fritz magnet.

1434
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,559
Speaker 2: So I do appreciate that, and I don't mind that

1435
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 2: it's like an entry into the like ouvra of mean

1436
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 2: girls being mean to each other in high school. I

1437
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 2: just wish that there were more examples of that not

1438
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,640
Speaker 2: being the case that do center teen girls having like

1439
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: solid friendships. But it's an interesting movie. It's way too white.

1440
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 2: The way it handles the concept of rape allegations and

1441
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 2: false rape allegations is very, very messy, and the thing

1442
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 2: that holds up the least well about the movie, I

1443
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:52,480
Speaker 2: think because of that, I'll drop it down to two nipples.

1444
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 2: I'll give one to Pam Greer and I'll give the

1445
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 2: other to Judy Greer. The Greers get my.

1446
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 3: Nips, I'll do two and a half. I think that

1447
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,440
Speaker 3: this movie is like taking a lot of big swings.

1448
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 3: It is. I wish it had done better at the time.

1449
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:09,960
Speaker 3: I understand maybe why it didn't, because there were a

1450
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:12,719
Speaker 3: lot of movies like this and just such a glut

1451
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:15,320
Speaker 3: of teen movies in this particular year. But I also

1452
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 3: think that you know, very often with marginalized directors, they

1453
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,839
Speaker 3: don't get the marketing power behind their work that they deserve.

1454
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,240
Speaker 3: And I admire what Darren Stan's going for here. I

1455
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 3: think that there's a lot of the big swings do

1456
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 3: not connect for me, but you know, I think it's

1457
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 3: earned its place in the Sleepover pantheon. So I'll go

1458
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 3: two and a half nipples. I'm gonna give I'm given

1459
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:41,439
Speaker 3: a full set to Pam Greer because she just was

1460
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 3: cracking me up. Her character also wildly inconsistent, where she's

1461
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 3: like really onto the girls and then just drops it

1462
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,599
Speaker 3: for what who knows, And I'll give my final half

1463
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 3: nip two. I guess I'll give it to the Denim

1464
01:22:56,479 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 3: Jacket that Rebecca gay heartwars because it does a lot

1465
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 3: of narrative heavy lifting. The jacket didn't know it had

1466
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 3: to work that hard, and I respect that.

1467
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm going to go a little higher. I think

1468
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 4: I'm going to go three and a half nipples, And

1469
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 4: that's partially, I think because of the nostalgia I have

1470
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 4: for this movie. But I agree with everything that you've said.

1471
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of the swings don't connect, but

1472
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 4: I think a lot of them do, and I think

1473
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 4: it's kind of a really important stepping stone movie for

1474
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:30,200
Speaker 4: a lot of what we've got today. So I'm really,

1475
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 4: really happy it exists, and it's been a formative movie

1476
01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:36,639
Speaker 4: for me in lots of ways, so I'm glad about it.

1477
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:41,799
Speaker 4: I'm going to give a half nipple to that stillborn chick.

1478
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 3: Thank god. Dad is great.

1479
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm going to give the three nipples to

1480
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,600
Speaker 4: the goth girl. Oh yes, who puts her finger in

1481
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 4: the ball.

1482
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:55,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, bless her heart.

1483
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh. Well, Crystal, thank you so much

1484
01:23:58,400 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 2: for joining us.

1485
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 4: Thank you for I don't know if we cracked it,

1486
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 4: but we kind of did. It turns out it's complicated,

1487
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 4: it's tricky, it's chicky.

1488
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 2: We didn't break the jawbreaker, I would say, but we

1489
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 2: gave it.

1490
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 4: Are all we peeled off a couple layers.

1491
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:18,640
Speaker 2: Onions have layers, jaw breakers have layers. What would you

1492
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 2: like to plug? Tell us where we can find your stuff?

1493
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 4: Ah, thank you. You can follow me on all the

1494
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 4: channels at Crystal We'll see you now. And I've got

1495
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 4: all kinds of content all the time, So check.

1496
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:36,080
Speaker 2: It out, please do. It's great, and you can follow

1497
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 2: us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to

1498
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 2: our Patreon aka Maatreon at patreon dot com slash Bechdel

1499
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 2: Cast where you'll get two bonus episodes every single month

1500
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 2: with Jamie and myself. We're talking really cool themes, we're

1501
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 2: talking really sassy sex. See episodes. You know you don't

1502
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 2: want to miss them.

1503
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 3: It's a friggin blast. I'll say it. I'll say it. Yeah.

1504
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 3: In this month, I mean, we're obviously getting into scary

1505
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 3: movie season, so we are covering Pearl and the Exorcist,

1506
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 3: and you also get the backlog of over one hundred

1507
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 3: and fifty episodes going on two hundred at this point.

1508
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 3: I think so join the Matreon. It's a fun community,

1509
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 3: and if you're looking for a way to support the show,

1510
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 3: that's the best way to support the show truly. You

1511
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,759
Speaker 3: can also get our merch at teapublic dot com. Slash

1512
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 3: the Bechdel Cast, get all your holiday needs whatever. None

1513
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,679
Speaker 3: of our business. It's none of our business. Okay.

1514
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 2: Oh, we have spooky seasons coming up, and so you're

1515
01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:42,880
Speaker 2: gonna want our beetlejuice wet scabs, dry scabs shirts.

1516
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking a suspicious lack of what scabs.

1517
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 3: We should have been pushing those shirts ahead of the

1518
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:48,799
Speaker 3: new movie.

1519
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,560
Speaker 2: But beetlejuice, beetlejuice.

1520
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:54,080
Speaker 3: Slip laugh love with that.

1521
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 2: Shell, we get in the trunk of our friend's car

1522
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 2: on per.

1523
01:26:00,439 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 4: I'm getting on the hood, okay.

1524
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 2: And then we'll have a little fun road trip.

1525
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:06,960
Speaker 3: We'll see you next week.

1526
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:14,720
Speaker 2: Game by Hi. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1527
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:18,719
Speaker 2: hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman,

1528
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 2: edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by

1529
01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 2: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in

1530
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 2: merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks

1531
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 2: to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

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01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:36,720
Speaker 2: visit link tree slash Bechdel Cast