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Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy.

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Speaker 2: Professionally, my career was just like going, you know, taking

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Speaker 2: off with my mentor, and I mean we're working on

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Speaker 2: some really really cool projects and nothing suffered work wise.

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Speaker 2: None of my clients had any idea, didn't miss a deadline.

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Speaker 2: Work was the only thing that made me happy, like truly,

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Speaker 2: because I could go there and it felt safe.

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Speaker 3: Like at home.

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Speaker 2: It didn't feel safe because I thought I was like

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Speaker 2: being under a microscope and there's all this pressure on

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Speaker 2: me to be like this perfect person.

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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 3: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 3: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 3: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 3: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 3: I was insane, Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 3: do because there was no internet.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a

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Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now

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Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you

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Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast. My name is kat I am the host,

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Speaker 1: and before we get started, I want to give a

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Speaker 1: quick reminder to everybody that although this podcast is hosted

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Speaker 1: by a therapist and it's called You Need Therapy, it

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Speaker 1: does not serve as a replacement or a substitute for

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Speaker 1: any actual mental health services, although we always hope that

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Speaker 1: it can help you wherever you are on whatever journey

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Speaker 1: you are on. Now today we are rounding out our

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Speaker 1: three part series on addiction. Tara Booker and I started

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Speaker 1: talking two weeks ago with the perspective of a clinician

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Speaker 1: and a therapist, and then we moved the following week

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Speaker 1: and talked about it from the perspective of a loved

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Speaker 1: one and loving somebody who struggles with addiction. And now

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Speaker 1: we have a human who has actually walked through the

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Speaker 1: throes of addiction themselves and is here to share part

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Speaker 1: of his own story in that. Our guest's name is

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Speaker 1: Matthias John and he's somebody I met years ago through

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Speaker 1: his wife and through a gym I used to go

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Speaker 1: to all the time. And his wife actually is a

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Speaker 1: therapist as well, which makes his story a little extra interesting,

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Speaker 1: I think. And today he is here to share his story,

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Speaker 1: one that includes being an alcoholic and through his recovery journey,

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Speaker 1: he decided that he wanted to offer the community something

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Speaker 1: that he wished he had, which was a story he

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Speaker 1: could really relate to, a story that felt like his,

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Speaker 1: a story about a high functioning addict who hid from

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Speaker 1: himself and others really really well, hid from his therapist,

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Speaker 1: really really well, hid from his wife who was a therapist,

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Speaker 1: really really well. And so what he did is he

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Speaker 1: took his actual journal entries, somebody who journaled every day

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Speaker 1: through this process, he took his actual journal entries and

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Speaker 1: created a book out of them, his own personal entries

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Speaker 1: through all of the phases of addiction, contemplation, recovery, all

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Speaker 1: of it. And to top it off, he actually writes

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Speaker 1: the book alongside his actual therapist. Her name is Ashley Boyd,

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Speaker 1: which this adds yet another layer of woe to his

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Speaker 1: story and to this book that he is now getting

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Speaker 1: ready to share with the world. In our conversation, we

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Speaker 1: talked about a lot, but what I hope you guys

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Speaker 1: hear in this is something that we can all relate to.

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Speaker 1: A story about someone who tried their hardest to run

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Speaker 1: from the truth and eventually found out that the truth

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Speaker 1: is what actually would set them free and would give

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Speaker 1: them what they were really looking for, and a story

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Speaker 1: about that being really freaking hard and possible at the

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Speaker 1: same time. If you want to learn more about Matthias,

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Speaker 1: you can find him on Instagram at Matthias John Underscore

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Speaker 1: and online at not Yet toofar Gone dot com and

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Speaker 1: I will also link both of those in the show

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Speaker 1: notes so you can just click on them to find him. So,

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Speaker 1: without anymore waiting, here is our conversation. So to start,

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Speaker 1: can you give everybody who's listening a short fuel on

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Speaker 1: who you are and why I might be talking to

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Speaker 1: you today.

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Speaker 2: My name is Matthias John. I live in Nashville, Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: As profession I design recording studios. I am also a

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Speaker 2: recovering alcoholic sober since April of twenty one, and in

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Speaker 2: the past year and a half, I've written a book

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Speaker 2: that explores the journals that I wrote every morning while

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Speaker 2: I was in active active addiction. So it's kind of

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Speaker 2: this exploration of basically how I got to where I

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Speaker 2: got and also in that process, I wrote it with

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Speaker 2: my therapist, Ashley Boyd, which was very enlightening experience. So

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Speaker 2: the book itself has like three voices, if you will.

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Speaker 2: There's attic Matthias, there's sober Matthias, and then there's Ashley

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Speaker 2: Boyd who can comment on both.

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Speaker 1: Which is such a crazy concept which we'll get into.

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Speaker 1: But what is very interesting about this conversation for me,

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Speaker 1: and I think is kind of cool for you guys

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Speaker 1: listening to have this in your head too, is that

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Speaker 1: I knew you before this book. I knew existed, and

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Speaker 1: I knew your wife way more intimately than I knew you,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think I would have ever imagined what

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Speaker 1: I read in the book. I think I texted your

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Speaker 1: wife Jesse first, and I said, oh my gosh, not

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Speaker 1: me crying listening to you write about her one just

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Speaker 1: the things that you were saying that were kind, but

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Speaker 1: also that there is this story happening behind what I

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Speaker 1: was seeing, and I think a lot of it happened

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Speaker 1: later when I hadn't been as close to Jesse. So

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Speaker 1: I think that's a little different. Yeah, But I think

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Speaker 1: that's important for a couple reasons to mention, one being

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Speaker 1: that this is a glaring example of how we really

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Speaker 1: cannot be so sure about what people are going through,

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Speaker 1: what's going on. I mean, it seems so cliche that

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Speaker 1: I get annoyed with it, But like the Instagram, the

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Speaker 1: whole Instagram's not real thing. It's like we can make

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Speaker 1: up whole stories about what people are working through or

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Speaker 1: struggling with or fill in the blank, and everybody has

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Speaker 1: a story. We just have to be curious enough to

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Speaker 1: ask us questions and lean in in our relationships to

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Speaker 1: learn what the story is. So I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: say that because, like I said, I just think it's

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Speaker 1: important that there can be people in our lives and

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Speaker 1: also with our bias and our judgments, which I talked

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Speaker 1: about two weeks ago, because two weeks ago we talked

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Speaker 1: from the perception of the clinician when it comes to addiction,

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Speaker 1: and I shared some of you guys, this might be redundant,

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Speaker 1: but I shared how my judgment and prejudice and thoughts

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Speaker 1: about how people who were addicts were so different than me,

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Speaker 1: and then when I actually realized I'm in relationship with

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Speaker 1: those people, and when I got to know them working

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Speaker 1: as a therapist, I was like, wait a second, I'm

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Speaker 1: learning more about me from you than I'm helping you

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Speaker 1: learn about you. And so it's just another example of

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Speaker 1: how we just need to be more curious and open

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Speaker 1: caring towards people and realize that what we're seeing on

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Speaker 1: the surface isn't always the case, even in ourselves. Your

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Speaker 1: whole book is wild because you get to see the

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Speaker 1: like bullshit kind of that you tell yourself, and then

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Speaker 1: later you get to go back and be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was lying, So like even like questioning ourselves and

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Speaker 1: being open to what's behind the image that we portray ourselves. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned this, but we are having this conversation

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Speaker 1: two weeks after we talked about addiction from the lens

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Speaker 1: of the therapist. Addiction when it comes to loving somebody

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Speaker 1: who struggles with addiction. And now I'm sitting here with

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Speaker 1: somebody who's going to share their story about what it's

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Speaker 1: like to actually decide or admit that they do have

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Speaker 1: an addiction and then work through. I mean, we get

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Speaker 1: the before, the during, and the after and.

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Speaker 2: The forever with you, right it's a full picture, and

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Speaker 2: that's why I thought it was important to share. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just you don't see a lot of that middle

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Speaker 2: ground unless it's like bottom bottom rights, it's a spectacular bottom,

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Speaker 2: like flipping a hotel room like these rockstar bottoms. You

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Speaker 2: hear that, but that's not very applicable to your neighbor,

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Speaker 2: right to someone that you know, someone you're passing on

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Speaker 2: the street, like their bottom. Everyone's bottom looks different and

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Speaker 2: you just never know who's hit it or.

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Speaker 3: Who's going through it.

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Speaker 2: And the relatability of the story is what I wanted

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Speaker 2: to share is and I think I mentioned this as

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Speaker 2: part of the book. When I started writing it, I'd

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Speaker 2: realized this was a book I wish I had, Like

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Speaker 2: this was a book I was looking for when I

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Speaker 2: was struggling. I read thirty forty books on addiction, like

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Speaker 2: clinical books from you know PhDs, you know, Understanding a

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Speaker 2: high function alcoholic to just memoirs of people. But most

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Speaker 2: of the people that write memoirs are relatively famous, and

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Speaker 2: so like they I want to rehab eight times, Like okay,

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Speaker 2: not everyone has money to throw to rehab or to

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Speaker 2: just take a break like you have life and so

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Speaker 2: like that gets in the way of a lot of

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Speaker 2: people doing that.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you can sit there and say, well, that's not.

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Speaker 2: Me, oh one hundred percent, right, Yeah, you've looked for

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Speaker 2: the whole, right, you look for what's not you and

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Speaker 2: what you can set yourself a part in.

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Speaker 1: I hear so often the defense of well I still

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Speaker 1: do this, and I still go to work, and I

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Speaker 1: still had this on time, and I still was able

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Speaker 1: to do that, and da da da, and I have

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Speaker 1: friends and I've never gotten this, And I think that's

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Speaker 1: that comparison that this only is a thing and I

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Speaker 1: only am in this category if all of these boxes

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Speaker 1: are checked. But what you're saying is the box is

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Speaker 1: that a lot of us have to look at. Are

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Speaker 1: these extreme boxes right? And there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: middle ground and a question that I ask people a lot,

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Speaker 1: which depends if they're ready to admit that is, regardless

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Speaker 1: of what has happened or what hasn't happened, is what's

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Speaker 1: going on right now working for you? Like is this

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Speaker 1: the life that you want to live? Regardless of If

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you drink once a year, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can still be an alcoholic, right on what that

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Speaker 1: drinking experience is like and how you feel and all

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Speaker 1: of that. So you kind of answered an important question

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Speaker 1: is what before we get into some of your story,

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Speaker 1: like what is it that really drove me to want

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Speaker 1: to because this is intimate what you're sharing.

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Speaker 3: Right, Oh, it's literally my journals.

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Speaker 1: So what drove you and sharing that is that? Like

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Speaker 1: I really wish I had an example of this, I

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Speaker 1: could wish I could have read this book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole book was a process.

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Speaker 2: So I started journaling like six years ago, and every

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Speaker 2: time I finished a journal, I would before I started

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Speaker 2: writing my next one, I just read through it, floop

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Speaker 2: back and be like, all right, what.

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Speaker 3: Would improve on? Where am I going? What did I

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Speaker 3: struggle with?

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Speaker 2: So I did that let's say pre addiction too, So

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Speaker 2: that was in place the whole way through this, and

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Speaker 2: then I guess six months into recovery is when I

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Speaker 2: started thinking, I really don't want to repeat this again.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back and read and look for patterns and

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Speaker 2: see what made me tick here and what kind of

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Speaker 2: would set me off and that kind of thing. So

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Speaker 2: it started as like a learning experience. Let's not repeat

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Speaker 2: the past, right, like, let's let's grow from this. And

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Speaker 2: then it started to morph into I would write on

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Speaker 2: you know, my journal entries that I saw, you know,

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Speaker 2: I started sharing that with my therapist Ashley, and then

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Speaker 2: it started snowballing into I think there's something here, like

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Speaker 2: I think there's something that could help people with it.

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Speaker 2: And initially I just asked Ashley to write the forward

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Speaker 2: to see if she would write, you know, introduction, and

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Speaker 2: she was like, I'd be happy to do you.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a great idea. And then she actually

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Speaker 3: came up with the idea.

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Speaker 2: She's like, well, you know, if you're open to it,

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Speaker 2: I can share notes from sessions or if there's something

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Speaker 2: you get stuck on, like I could kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: pipe in here and there, And that snowballed into her

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Speaker 2: chiming in whenever she felt like it right. So, and

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Speaker 2: the way we wrote it together was I wrote my

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Speaker 2: entire thing, like everything I wanted to say, in six

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Speaker 2: to seven months, and then she wanted to wait until

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Speaker 2: I was done because I knew what would happen if

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Speaker 2: she started pitch like piping in was I'd play some

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Speaker 2: recovery and be.

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Speaker 3: Like, well, this was like what was going I try

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Speaker 3: to make myself look good?

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Speaker 2: And there would be rebuttals, which is not the point,

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Speaker 2: and the point is to get it out there and

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Speaker 2: be honest and open and vulnerable and raw with a

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Speaker 2: lot of the writing. So she waited till I was

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Speaker 2: completely done, and then she went back and you know,

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Speaker 2: there were key dates in her session notes, which you

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Speaker 2: know I signed off on. Yes, you can share whatever

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Speaker 2: you want, you know, in case I was worried about

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Speaker 2: legal implications on the yeah, there was definitely a release.

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Speaker 2: And also I was the one who said please share this,

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Speaker 2: so not a big deal. And she pulled some really

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Speaker 2: interesting stuff. And as she started sending me bits and

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Speaker 2: pieces of it, I'm like, I think this, I really

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Speaker 2: do think this can help some people. And then the

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Speaker 2: turning point for me taking it like really seriously it

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Speaker 2: was probably December of just last year, is when I

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Speaker 2: started to look at it like a right, I think

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Speaker 2: this is like something I want to put together and

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Speaker 2: look at it like as a professional manner. I gave

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Speaker 2: the book to someone I knew who was going to

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Speaker 2: a seven day detox for alcohol. A friend of mine

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Speaker 2: connected me with him and said, I think you two

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Speaker 2: should talk basically just kind of connecting the dots, and

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Speaker 2: so I printed them off what I had at the time,

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Speaker 2: so it looked like a like a film manuscript, right

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Speaker 2: because it was not eight and a half by eleven,

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Speaker 2: just like a thick wat of paper. And I gave

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Speaker 2: it to him just like, hey, amn, no pressure. But

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Speaker 2: it seems like we may have struggled with the same

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Speaker 2: things along the way. So I mean, all you could

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Speaker 2: bring into that type of thing is reading material, no phones,

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Speaker 2: no emails on computers.

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Speaker 3: So the first you know.

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Speaker 2: Four days were very hazy for him because it was

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Speaker 2: medically like overseen by professionals and all that, and so

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Speaker 2: he said he read it in about two days, like

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Speaker 2: the whole thing. Everyone and else was like, what are

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Speaker 2: you reading? Like sharing it? He started sharing pages with them,

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Speaker 2: and everyone was like, I need to get my hands

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Speaker 2: on this thing, like this resonating. And there were two

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Speaker 2: things that really struck me that came away from it.

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Speaker 2: The first was he had a friend of someone he

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Speaker 2: met there read a couple pages and then that sparked

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Speaker 2: this friend who was struggling with addiction and his relationship

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Speaker 2: was after his marriage was suffering. He wrote his wife

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Speaker 2: a letter that he's never written his wife a letter before,

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Speaker 2: but he was so inspired and felt so emotional because

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Speaker 2: of I don't even know what chapter it was, but

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Speaker 2: whatever I wrote spoke to him in a way where

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Speaker 2: he wrote his wife like pages upon pages, just like

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Speaker 2: I finally see my role. I'm so sorry, like just

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Speaker 2: you know, all of it came out towards the end

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Speaker 2: of his treatment, which I thought was very It was,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was very touching for me to hear that.

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Speaker 2: And then my friend who finished it, and I like

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Speaker 2: to call him patient zero because he's like the first

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Speaker 2: one to read it, covered it cover that. Didn't you

298
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Speaker 2: know love me like objective completely. You have to like

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Speaker 2: you need, Yeah, you need someone that you know has

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Speaker 2: no tide in that. He called me when he got

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Speaker 2: out and we had like this forty five minute, hour

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Speaker 2: long conversation. He's like, you put into words things I've

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Speaker 2: been feeling for five years and I had no idea

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Speaker 2: how to say it. And you literally made me want

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Speaker 2: to just walk a better path as a man because

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Speaker 2: of the way that you owned it and what you

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Speaker 2: did to go forward and sharing it. And he's he's

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Speaker 2: been sober since. I mean, we were still in touch.

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Speaker 2: We get coughee all the time and not saying that

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Speaker 2: this is this is by no means of how to

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Speaker 2: get sober book. This is very much a this is

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Speaker 2: what I went through, and if it resonates and things change, wonderful.

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Speaker 1: One. That's incredible As you're talking, and I'm like, when

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Speaker 1: I worked in a treatment center, there was a book

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Speaker 1: that every client got when they walked in. It was

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Speaker 1: The Four Agreements. I don't know if they still get that.

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Speaker 1: There great book, but if this was the book that

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Speaker 1: every client got, how cool would that be? Where it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a you're not alone and you can go

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Speaker 1: somewhere by yourself and read this. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: sit in group therapy and spill your guts right now

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Speaker 1: if you're not ready to do it, but you're not alone.

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Speaker 1: That is one. So cool that he is going to exist,

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Speaker 1: and also really cool that you gave this book to

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Speaker 1: this stranger before you were probably even really completely done

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Speaker 1: with like the finishing touches and making.

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Speaker 3: Sure Yeah it was it was pretty raw.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's also interesting. I was going to ask you,

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Speaker 1: how did you get your therapist to agree to do this?

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Speaker 1: But it was her idea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she knows me better than I know myself.

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Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, and so I think one

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Speaker 2: she was probably really curious to what I was putting

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Speaker 2: on paper because she was able to go back and

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Speaker 2: read and be like, Okay, Matt just binged for the

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Speaker 2: past week and he came in on a Tuesday and

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Speaker 2: said everything's fine, oh my, and we didn't talk about

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Speaker 2: alcohol because he just he put on the attic face

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Speaker 2: and you just you know, and she was very you know,

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Speaker 2: once once I fully accepted. Once I said to her,

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Speaker 2: I'm an alcoholic, and she wrote it down. She's like,

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Speaker 2: all right, just so you know, you said this, and

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Speaker 2: I could read it back to you right in the future, right,

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Speaker 2: because that's something you need to come to on your own.

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Speaker 2: And so as soon as you know, we had that conversation,

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Speaker 2: then she would start to let me in on certain things,

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Speaker 2: like how skilled I was at navigating sober Matt versus

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Speaker 2: attict Matt and like flipping that switch mid session like

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Speaker 2: she oh yeah, and just trying to smooth things over.

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Speaker 2: And she's like, you were a very tough study in

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Speaker 2: that regard because your addiction was so strong and you

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Speaker 2: were still holding everything together well.

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Speaker 1: And you know what is fascinating from a clinician perspective,

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Speaker 1: is when you work in a treatment center, this is

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Speaker 1: a different ball game because you were there. There's usually

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Speaker 1: if it's not you that are that you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I want to come and get help. There's family members

358
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Speaker 1: that are giving you some information. You have a lot

359
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Speaker 1: of information before you even meet the client, so you

360
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Speaker 1: know what you're going to face when you're working out

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Speaker 1: patient with the client. We only know what you bring us.

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Speaker 1: When you're working out patient with the client, we only

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Speaker 1: know what you bring us. And so it takes a

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Speaker 1: little bit of time to figure out and put these

365
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Speaker 1: pieces together. I think there was one point that Ashley

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Speaker 1: wrote in there that was like at this point I

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Speaker 1: was a little confused or like this started to not

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Speaker 1: make any sense to me, something like that, and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: eventually you start being like, wait a second, you said this,

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Speaker 1: but then you said this, but then everything's fine. Then

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Speaker 1: everything's not fine. Then this is happening. Something's not adding up,

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Speaker 1: and you're not telling me the whole story, which is

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Speaker 1: a journey that yeah, and we can't as a therapist

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Speaker 1: force somebody in to the journey. So I'm really curious

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Speaker 1: what was your perception about addiction and addicts and did

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Speaker 1: you know, any were you in relationship with any that

377
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: talked about it? So what was that before you were

378
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 1: in the space to be like, yeah, I think this

379
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: fits for me. And then what flipped for you where

380
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm ready to kind of admit this.

381
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Speaker 2: I think part of this feels like karma because of

382
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Speaker 2: the way that I viewed addicts before, which was very

383
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Speaker 2: much the stereotype. I don't know, however, no one looks

384
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 2: at a successful person and be like, you know, they

385
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: might have a problem, or it might it's always the

386
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Speaker 2: other way, And I just know I can say how

387
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 2: many times to be like I wouldn't trust anyone that

388
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Speaker 2: doesn't drink, you know, or just why can't ADICX just

389
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 2: stop or something like that, you know, like just not

390
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 2: knowing what it was like until I started feeling a

391
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 2: poll and making and doing you just irrational things and

392
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Speaker 2: not being able to stop. And really most of my

393
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: life have been a fairly honest person. I like to

394
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 2: think that I was, And man, did it turn me

395
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Speaker 2: into a liar in just so many ways, like a

396
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 2: bold face liar. I'm not a good liar. So it

397
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: was very clear to my wife when it was lying.

398
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 2: I mean, like it was obvious, but there was just

399
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 2: a lot of things that started adding up. The only

400
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: person that knew the whole time was my wife, really,

401
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: Jesse and I hit it from family. We're sitting at

402
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: my mentor studio.

403
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:19,959
Speaker 3: He didn't know.

404
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 1: And how often were you with?

405
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 3: I mean every day? I would drink here every day?

406
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: So how did your wife? How did she find out

407
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: about it? Was it just a progressive thing that started

408
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 1: being a conversation.

409
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were just signs here and there where. I mean,

410
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: I would always I typically used to stay up later

411
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: than her, and that's when I would drink. She'd go

412
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 2: to bed, and then I'd be like, all right, now

413
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: I could have like a couple more drinks.

414
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: So it was always me coming to bed a little

415
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 3: bit later.

416
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 2: And she didn't hear like the ice cubes getting poored

417
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 2: like downstairs type of thing. And so a lot of

418
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: things just didn't add up, you know, Like she'd come

419
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: home from work and I'd be buzzed and be like, well,

420
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 2: what'd you do? Like nothing, I just came home from work,

421
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 2: and you know, no big deal. But you know, the

422
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: buzz has turned more into just being drunk when she

423
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: got home, and eventually and it's in this is in

424
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: the book, which I jokingly trademarked. She found what I

425
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: called the vodka graveyard, Like I had bottles hidden in

426
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: my closet, and so I'd go upstairs and come downstairs

427
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 2: and be more off than I was prior. Right, And

428
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 2: she started to pick up on these things and one

429
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: day she's like, this doesn't make sense.

430
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 4: Right, She's like, I'm starting.

431
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 3: Right because he's gas lighting.

432
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, also in the book, so all those things. Eventually

433
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: she dug through my closet because something wasn't off, and

434
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 2: she's like, it was the worst I've ever felt as

435
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 2: a wife to have to do that, and that was,

436
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: you know, that was a very fun day. But that

437
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: was exactly a year before my bottom. So she found

438
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 2: bottles in the closet and then I started doing the

439
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 2: little brief stints of sobriety, and then it like it

440
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: really ramped up for a couple of months into I

441
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: decided to call it quits.

442
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: So tell me the conversation in your head that you're having.

443
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: And again a lot of this is in the book.

444
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: Because the conversations in your head are coming out on

445
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 1: the paper, I imagine there's people listening and being like, how

446
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: do you not know you have a problem if you're

447
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: hiding alcohol from your wife? So what's the conversation in

448
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 1: your head when that's happening, is it I know I

449
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: have a problem, but I don't want to admit it,

450
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: or I'm still able to maintain all this stuff. It's fine.

451
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: My wife is just dramatic or whatever. Well she won't understand.

452
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think I hit all of them, you know,

453
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: like there's probably a progression of that. There were days

454
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: where I'd be like, man, you are such an alcoholic,

455
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 2: you know, like to myself, but not do anything about it.

456
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 2: For a long time, it was still fun, like it

457
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: was still life giving to me because it would just

458
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, I mean I had a buzz all day.

459
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: It was great, Like there was no consequence yet, So

460
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: like on that level, you look at that and you think, Okay,

461
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: well maybe maybe she's just like a little little maybe

462
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to have as much fun as I

463
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: want to have. And I'm I'm in the music industry

464
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 2: and like, look around, everyone's doing this.

465
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: Not on that.

466
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: Level, but you're comparing myself, which is not great for

467
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: any sort of recovery. Sovariety or in general.

468
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was.

469
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: There were stages some days where I would be like, ah,

470
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: she's just a little a little tight. I mean, none

471
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: of these things are true, but it was just depending

472
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: on the day, I would say different things to myself

473
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 2: to try to reason it. I think, you know, that's

474
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: like you know, in your gut at some point, if

475
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: you're really hiding it and you know, sneaking alcohol in

476
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: your gym bag kind of thing, like you know, like

477
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: deep down, you know, but your brain is very skilled

478
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: at manipulating the thoughts to say, no, you're still good.

479
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: Because professionally, my career was just like going, you know,

480
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: taking off with my mentor and I mean we're working

481
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: on some really really cool projects and nothing suffered work wise.

482
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: None of my clients had any idea, didn't miss a deadline.

483
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: Work was the only thing that made me happy, like truly,

484
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: because I could go there and it felt safe. Like

485
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: at home, it didn't feel safe because I thought I

486
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: was like being under a microscope and there's all this

487
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: pressure on me to be like this perfect person.

488
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: From where from Jesse?

489
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: Was she giving you that pressure in.

490
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 2: My mind at the time, Yeah, but no, I mean

491
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 2: she never said that yeah, she never said that. And

492
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: I also I kind of put that pressure on myself

493
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: on some level too, where you know, I was always

494
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: kind of the easy going one in the family, like

495
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 2: easy to get along with. I never really stirred the pot,

496
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: and so I was just that fun loving, easy, easygoing guy,

497
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: easy to travel with, and I just that persona to me.

498
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: I wanted to keep that and hold on to that,

499
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: and so I was like, well, you can still keep

500
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: that going. This is just a little problem over here.

501
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: It'll go away. No one knows about it, not a

502
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: big deal.

503
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: It's almost I mean, this leads into something else, but

504
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: the drinking, it's like a solution to that. I want

505
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: to keep being. It's a double edged sword, right, So

506
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: it's keeping me from being able to be this easygoing

507
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: guides making it difficult because like, oh there's a problem,

508
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: but also it's helping me maintain the feelings I have

509
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: about having to always be the easygoing, fun loving guy. Yeah.

510
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: What people might find very interesting that I have not

511
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: said yet is I don't think you've said it is.

512
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: Your wife's a therapist.

513
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 4: Your wife was a therapist, and she was like had

514
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 4: already been.

515
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: She probably was already licensed and working as a therapist

516
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: when you guys met or when you got.

517
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 3: Married's just starting in private practice when we met.

518
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: So what is that experience? Because when you said, like

519
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: the microscope, a fear of mine used to always be like,

520
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: people are going to think that I'm always working when

521
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: I'm in relationship with people. Now I know that to

522
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: be different from my experience, but people do wonder that. Yeah,

523
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: and so did it feel like part of that microso

524
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: scope was because your wife works with this all day

525
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: long and her job is to question and her job

526
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: is to wonder and be curious.

527
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

528
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: I never felt like I was, let's say, therapized. I

529
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: was never being therapized at home. I just think that

530
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: with her being a therapist, we've always had a very

531
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: open line of communication and we talk like we talk

532
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: about things, nothing truly festers. So I think that was

533
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: just that was always there, that was there before, and

534
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 2: so now we're just talking about harder stuff. And I

535
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: never felt that pressure, which I think goes that says

536
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: a lot about her to know that she's too close

537
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: And I started therapy because she knew that she was

538
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: too close to help. I mean I started therapy because

539
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: it was drinking a little too much. It wasn't crazy,

540
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: it was definitely excessive. And there's a chapter in the

541
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: book where I have to fact check myself mid book

542
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: because I say the problem starts in this year, and

543
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: it was like, no, it.

544
00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: Started two years later.

545
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it's an interesting thing to as your

546
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: cause you add a brain, there's still there, right.

547
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: So that's why we go to meetings.

548
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: That's why we work on this rest of our life

549
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: because if we don't, it's gonna flip a switch and

550
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 2: all of a sudden we're back to where we were.

551
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to write this book on honesty and

552
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: like open up and tell my story, and I'm already

553
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: lying to the audience and saying, well, this started in

554
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, Like okay, now let's back up a little.

555
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: Bit, start a little prior.

556
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: But that all to say, like I started therapy because

557
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: I was basically self medicating at home for a few

558
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: different reasons. And so that was kind of a point

559
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: where it's she kind of you know, let it go

560
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: to our you're seeing somebody, you're taking that step. I

561
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: know I can't be your therapist as your husband, that's impossible.

562
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: So let's, you know, let's start to work on that

563
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: level instead of her. She never tried to fix me,

564
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: And let's say that.

565
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: When she wants to be your wife in that scenario,

566
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: like I want to be your partner, I don't want

567
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: to be your not that a therapist will to be

568
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: this either, but I'm not going to be your rescue

569
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: or your savior. Yeah, it is such a different role.

570
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: And I think that's also important to note if anybody

571
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: has friends that are therapists or anybody, the role of

572
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: therapist is very different than all these other things. And yeah,

573
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: our personality is going to come out. You guys have

574
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: probably stronger communication skills because that's what she does all

575
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: day and she probably enjoys that to an extent. But

576
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: we don't want to work on our While I can

577
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: speak for myself, I don't want to work on my

578
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: family members as patients of mine.

579
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: That feels icky, Yeah, and it's and what I've realized

580
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: with Jesse is I mean she does that all day. Yeah,

581
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: so like she want to come home and keep it

582
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: going probably No, Like I know how exhausting it is

583
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: for you guys, Like you're emotionally invested in so many

584
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 2: people that you just want some stability, yeah, you know

585
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: when you're done and so and that's what she was

586
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: looking for, and you know that wasn't clearly giving it.

587
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: To What would you say because you mentioned self medicating,

588
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: and this answer can shift as the versions of you

589
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: come out. What was the problem you were medicating?

590
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: Initially where we went with it was I was losing

591
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: my sense.

592
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: Of self in a lot of ways.

593
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: So you know, justin now we're married a little over

594
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: a year when I started going to therapy, and I

595
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: wasn't doing as much that I was doing when I

596
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: moved to Nashville. Like when I moved here, I moved

597
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: here to be in the music industry, go to shows,

598
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: meat artists, record bands produced.

599
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: That was like my new path.

600
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: And prior to jests that I did that for a

601
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: couple of years, I was out five days a week.

602
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: And then you start to get in a relationship and honestly,

603
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: I've never been in a long term relationship before Jesse

604
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: was it. So I didn't know what balance was and

605
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: I just went head head into whatever she wanted and

606
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: so and not she was asking, but what I perceived

607
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: the perfect boyfriend or and or husband to be, which

608
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: was all right, she worked a little.

609
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: Later, and she still works a little later then me.

610
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: She comes home a little later.

611
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: So I cooked dinner every night, and so I kept

612
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: doing that, but I stopped going to shows and I

613
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: stopped doing all the things that I moved here for.

614
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: So initially the self medicating was, all right, you're sad

615
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: because you're proud, you're a little bored, or you're like

616
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: losing that drive or something.

617
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: But it's also like confusing because you're like, wait, this

618
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: is what everybody wants is to have this partnership and

619
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: then you have this life together and yeah, you not

620
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: everybody wants that, but you know the American dream kind

621
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: of story. Yeah, and you can't all the time. It's

622
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: like the zero two one hundred. It's black and it's white.

623
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: I'm in this relationship or I'm working on my career.

624
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm working my career, or I'm in this relationship, I'm

625
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: starting a family, or I'm giving up my I'm giving

626
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: up Do you have to have one or the other?

627
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: And did it feel like you couldn't have both or

628
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: it feel like you weren't supposed to have both, or

629
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: just was it was it a lot of pressure again?

630
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: Most of the pressure came from myself. I thought on

631
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: some lovel I couldn't have both, or I thought she'd

632
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: be more up she would be like upset if I

633
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: did more things like you know, so I made up

634
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: a story in my head like, oh man, she's she's

635
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: gonna be pissed if I go to another show or

636
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: something like that. And you know, one thing Ashley has

637
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: worked with, she's like, you're really assuming you know what's

638
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: going on in your wife's head. And one thing that

639
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: I would I used to be really proud of, like, oh, yeah,

640
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: we never we never fight because we just get along

641
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: in and like we kind of like on the same wavelength,

642
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: we kind of know what each other's thinking.

643
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: And then and then through therapy in.

644
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: Addiction, that's incredibly arrogant to be that as a partner

645
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: you don't know what's going on. And so she never

646
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: said any of those things, but in my head I

647
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: would just I went, I twisted it real quick to oh, no,

648
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: you have to be home or she won't be happy,

649
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: which is just not was so far from the truth.

650
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: But that's the pressure that I instilled on myself, which

651
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: you know eventually led to other things.

652
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: Obviously, so yeah, it's well, this is what would make

653
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: me a good husband. Backfire, because who can live that way.

654
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: What you're saying is like, I'm behaving and choosing things

655
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: that I think will make this person happy even though

656
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: I haven't asked them, And then they're like, huh, I

657
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: never said that. Yeah, there's a lot of moments in

658
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: this book that I feel that must have been incredibly

659
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: difficult to go back through, also difficult to put on

660
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: paper for people to read. Also, a lot of parts

661
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: of the book that would just were like shocking, not

662
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: jawdrop you.

663
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 4: Guys couldn't hear that, but.

664
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: Shocking in the way of like, oh, yes, like a

665
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: light bulb kind of moment. There's one in particular that

666
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: I want to bring up. And there is a moment

667
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: that you said, this is the journal part that you

668
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: write an entry, this is just the end of it.

669
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: You said, why is it that after every good session,

670
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: bad things happen? And then in your response to that,

671
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here being like, do you remember that? You're like, yes,

672
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: I've been through this fifty.

673
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: Times by now.

674
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: But in your response you said, it was an extremely

675
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: common occurrence for me to drink the night after a

676
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: good therapy session. Therapy made me feel better about myself,

677
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: or at least that's what I was taking away from

678
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: it at the time. Yet again I was missing the point.

679
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: Actually scratch that, I wasn't really missing the point. I

680
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: was getting what I wanted. This feels, like I said,

681
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: like the light bulb, like so real. And we kind

682
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: of touched on this earlier. But people ask me a lot.

683
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: Friends and people are like, oh, what do you do

684
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: And they'll ask me, what do you do if your

685
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: clients are lying to you? Or what do you do

686
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: like if you don't have all the information? And often

687
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: my response is similar to, well, that's not really my problem.

688
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: I used to want to make it my problem as

689
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: an early fare, but it's not really my problem. And

690
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: I can't really help somebody if they don't want the

691
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: help and if they aren't ready for the help. And

692
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: I also think of that space between they people start

693
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: to get honest as necessary. We say so often like

694
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: oh I wish I would have done this sooner, or

695
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: I wish I would have gone back and just been

696
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: on it. But there's usually something that we need in

697
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: that space, and I want you to talk about that

698
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: kind of space. Because I think it's so interesting. You

699
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: weren't missing the point. I was getting what I wanted.

700
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: You were getting what you want out of therapy, which

701
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: is to just feel better about yourself, not to change

702
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: your behavior. That's what I took from that. Yeah, so

703
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: what was that like? And then like how did you

704
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: move to a place where you were thinking, Wait a second,

705
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: it might be getting what I want, but this isn't working.

706
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: When I was saying like I was getting what I

707
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: wanted out of it, I would come back and like

708
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: kind of debrief with Jesse. That's a choice that we

709
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: made as a couple, Like it's not for every buddy,

710
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: but obviously she's a therapist, and so it was a

711
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: thing that I thought was important to share what I

712
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: wanted to share, and she was very upfront like talk

713
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: about what do you want to but you know, how

714
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: did it go?

715
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 3: And we talked, but I would get out of it.

716
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: It was just enough space to keep going, you know,

717
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: like I'd hear enough good things to continue to do

718
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: what I was doing. And so I would basically pete

719
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: like just take the pieces of and glance over.

720
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: Take what took it I wanted.

721
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: I left the rest and then when you're unfortunate, like

722
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: the hardest one of the hardest things is realizing how

723
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: manipulative I was throughout those years, and even with Ashley,

724
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: and I know that she saw through a lot of it,

725
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: but there's some points in the book where she's like,

726
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: this is all shocking to me. And so as I

727
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: was being manipulative through that, I was being able to

728
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: relive therapy in those conversations and think, you know what,

729
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: I'm not that bad.

730
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: I'm doing okay, I'm working on this.

731
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 4: That's a famous line, Yeah, I'm not that.

732
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: Not that bad.

733
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's something that I said very very often,

734
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: but that's kind of what I would get out of it.

735
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: Was just Okay, we have this to work on. Cool,

736
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: I'm going to work on that.

737
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: We didn't talk about this, And why didn't we talk

738
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: about well, because I didn't bring it up.

739
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: I think this is so common. I've done this before.

740
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to therapy to confirm that I'm okay, versus

741
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to therapy to figure out what's going on, yeah,

742
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: and then making adjustments when needed.

743
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: Therapy actually started out to make the adjustments as needed.

744
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: I think the whole realization of Okay, you're losing yourself,

745
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: your sense of self and what you were doing that

746
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: brought you joy, Like got it that those are all

747
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: true things, and okay, I could work on that. So

748
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: I did work on that and started doing more things,

749
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: and like just and I had a little more space

750
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: from each other, which was all good.

751
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: So I went the reverse route. So I initially went.

752
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: And it's probably when the added brain took over, and

753
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: then I started hearing what I'm getting out of it

754
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: when I need to get out of it in order

755
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: to keep drinking.

756
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, your addict's like, wait, no, you are getting too close.

757
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is good work.

758
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: We got to do something to get that out of

759
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: the way.

760
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: I often will describe addiction, I mean not often. I

761
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: always describe it as a solution to a problem that

762
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: then stops working right. And so when we get to

763
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: those spaces where we have to make a decision do

764
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: I keep doing this or do I try something else.

765
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: What I don't think a lot of people can understand

766
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: unless they're close to it is that when you talk

767
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: about your story, and it's a different experience because you've

768
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: worked through this so much, but when you talk about

769
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: this story, there can be this air of people who

770
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: are either living that or experiencing it or have gone

771
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: through before, where there's this shame aspect. I mean, addiction

772
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: is thriving on shame, right, Yeah, So what is so helpful,

773
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: I think is realizing that way. Second, I'm not using

774
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: this thing, and we're talking about alcohol, but fill in

775
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: the blank with literally anything. I'm not doing this because

776
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: I want to hurt people. I'm not looking for a

777
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: way to skirt past this or bypass this or ignore

778
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: this or just get what I want out of this

779
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: because I'm a bad person. I want to hurt people.

780
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't care about people. I don't care about myself.

781
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: It's often that I care a lot. And if I

782
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: pay attention to this thing, how am I going to suffer?

783
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: Not like how am I going to get better? It's like,

784
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: how am I going to suffer? Was there a breaking

785
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: point for you where you realized not cognitively, oh this

786
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: thing is hurting me and not helping me. Because I

787
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: think we can look on paper and say, oh, all

788
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: of these things are lining up, but emotionally, where oh

789
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: my gosh, this actually isn't helping me feel better. It's

790
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: actually feeding the part of me that feels really shitty. Yeah,

791
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: there a where that spoke to you or did it

792
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: come out over time?

793
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: I think that was kind of a gradual thing because

794
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 2: when I was like drinking a lot and abusing, I

795
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: wasn't very aware of how it was affecting Jesse, which

796
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: is hard well for myrored reasons, but since no one

797
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: else knew, it wasn't hurting anybody else, right, so it

798
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: was only hurting the most important person in my life.

799
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: But I didn't realize know that, I didn't realize how

800
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: much it was. I mean, she was very and we

801
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: got to a point where she was very forward about

802
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: you need to like take some steps and do something.

803
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: This is not manageable. It was probably a slow build

804
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: in my mind, but probably not for her. And then

805
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: one instance that that really kind of drove it home

806
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: for me is like whenever I traveled for work, it

807
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: was like a break right because I was I wasn't

808
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: with her. I can do whatever I want, so I

809
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: could drink as much as I want when I travel

810
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: for work, like I would do all my work things first,

811
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: did everything taken care of, and then go drink a

812
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: hotel room or something like that. And that was my

813
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: way of like letting off steam or something, or in

814
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: an airport bar kind of thing, and then I'd be like,

815
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: cause I got no one looking at me, I'm good

816
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: kind of which was very probably really sad. But we

817
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 2: Jesse and I share a playlist like on Spotify, and

818
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: the playlist titles December eighth, that was the day of

819
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: our first date, and so we used to just add

820
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: songs to it that like reminded each other, and so

821
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: I would send her screenshots of what I was listening

822
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: to from that playlist, and I think one thing that

823
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: still just like tears at me was I sent her

824
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: one and her response was, I hope this brings you

825
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 2: back to me. And so that was a point where

826
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, I mean, I just started crying right I

827
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: was on a plane and I was just like this now.

828
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 2: I like that showed some depth of you know, what

829
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: I was doing to her, and so that was a

830
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: really strong point in the journey. That was probably a

831
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: month before my car accident, which.

832
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about, but that even, oh my god,

833
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: that pretty good. I can't even process my emotions that

834
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: I'm having about that, because I think knowing and experiencing

835
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: and seeing you guys in relationship and how much you

836
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: both love each other, which like it's like palpable you

837
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: can I mean, I met you guys at a gym,

838
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: which is where you met Jesse. You could feel how

839
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: much they loved each other in a workout class with

840
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: that like it.

841
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 3: Was it is it?

842
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 4: No, it's not annoying at all.

843
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: And I love some of the stuff you said in

844
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: the book about that. It's like I was this. I

845
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: couldn't relate to these other couples that were annoyed by

846
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: this or this, like this was the almost fairy tale,

847
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: but it wasn't annoying because what it actually was is

848
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call it like a role model, but it

849
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: was like proof that like that stuff exists and it's

850
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: not a fairy tale. And so I guess this is

851
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: me processing this moment for you guys listening that, like

852
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: you make no sense because this probably doesn't make sense

853
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: hearing that. And I wonder if that's why I was

854
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: so emotional reading some of the stuff you wrote. Is

855
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: because in that sentence, well, let me ask you what

856
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: you heard in that sentence?

857
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: Oh, that I was going away? You know that I

858
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: was drifting away.

859
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 2: That's kind of what it felt of, Yeah, she's home

860
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: and I'm not.

861
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 1: Even when you're home, even when I'm home, And that's

862
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: such an interesting because I'm not in that relationship. And

863
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: when I heard in that sentence was I love you

864
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: so much? Yeah, I love you and I miss you

865
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: so much. And oh my god, I don't even know

866
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: where I'm going with that. But if that that didn't

867
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: do it for you, that wasn't the bottom. No, what

868
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: was the bottom.

869
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: The bottom was a car accident. So I was way

870
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: too brave and I'm not proud of it. But I

871
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: drove drunk a lot, you know, and I think a

872
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 2: lot of people do, and it's unfortunate. And I'm really

873
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: glad now that that happened when it did, because another

874
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: couple months and I'm not confident I would have walked

875
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 2: away from a vehicle like I was.

876
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 3: It was everywhere for me. It was a day.

877
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: It was frindy golf fans out there. It was Master's weekend,

878
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: which is one of my favorite weekends of the year.

879
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: And I write in the book like I celebrate it

880
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: with or without company, like I don't care. I'm watching

881
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: every every shot. And it used to be a very

882
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: big drinking weekend of the year for me. So it

883
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: was the Thursday of the Master's Golf tournament, and I'd

884
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: got a real early start by myself. And the phrase

885
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: that I would use is, and I use this for years,

886
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go home before it all hits me, right, Yeah,

887
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: so let's uh, let's let's drive home.

888
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: Before all this start drunk, before get drunk.

889
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: You're already drunk if you're saying that, most likely, but

890
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: that was my thought process on that day.

891
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: And I didn't make it home.

892
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: I got an off off exit, I think, to my recollection,

893
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: I was playing on my phone looking for some music,

894
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: not paying attention, and I rear ended the car in

895
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: front of me on the off ramp, and I was

896
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 2: going pretty fast because they hit the person in front

897
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: of them, which hit the person in front of them.

898
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: So there was four cars involved in this accident, and

899
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: I don't remember the actual impact because well, vodka won

900
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: and then two my airbag went off, so I was

901
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: like jacked in the face while also not sober, so.

902
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 3: I don't really remember it.

903
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: What I remember was being in handcuffs in a police

904
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: car and going to the hospital to get my blood

905
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: dren like you know for blood alcohol content.

906
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: That was it.

907
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: That day was it. I'm so grateful what happened. I

908
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 2: could have hurt a lot of people. Luckily no one

909
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: got hurt, and which is just such a blessing. It

910
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: could have been bad.

911
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 3: But that was it.

912
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: That was That was my first consequence, which is a well,

913
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: that's not true. My relationship I heard greatly. It was

914
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 2: my first outward yeah, legal consequence from this.

915
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: Which is so important to note because that goes back

916
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: to what you said in the very beginning, is like

917
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot of stories that I related to,

918
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: and there were consequences everywhere, but they weren't the ones

919
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: that you have on the boxes that you know that

920
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: emotional wounds. They're the things that you can bury and hide,

921
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: and this you can't can't hide anymore.

922
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, So the next day I wrote, which Ashley

923
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: put in the book, Thank you, Ashley. I wrote an

924
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: email to my extended family and I called my blood

925
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: like my parents and my family. I talked to them,

926
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: but jesse Side and her best friends, they none of

927
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: them really knew what was going on, so or they

928
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: knew very lightly and they thought I was probably doing okay.

929
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: So I wrote them an email the next day, just

930
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 2: airing it out, saying I got in a car wreck yesterday.

931
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: I was not sober, you know, basically asking for forgiveness

932
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 2: and saying it's time to like work a program, take

933
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: the things seriously. And Ashley eloquently put that in the

934
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 2: book for everyone to read. So that's something to look

935
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 2: forward to. Yeah, yeah, but that was it. I mean,

936
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: that was April ninth of twenty twenty one.

937
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: What was that day after, like for you, day after

938
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: the car accident? What was that day after, like for you,

939
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: day after the car accident?

940
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: Oh?

941
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: Just awful.

942
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know what comes with a potential to UI

943
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: and what you need to do for all that. I

944
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 2: also didn't know the extreme of the accident because I

945
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: didn't remember it. So in my mind, I could still

946
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: drive my car and I rear ended somebody. And then

947
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: I get on a phone with an attorney and he's like, oh,

948
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: the police report just came through, and he's like, how

949
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: many cars are in the accident. I'm like, oh, I

950
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: just hit another person in front of me. He's like,

951
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: there were actually four cars involved. I didn't know that.

952
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: So my stomach just sunk because then another call of

953
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: fin attorney was like, yeah, someone went to the hospital too.

954
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: They weren't seriously hurt, but they were giving me the

955
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: worst case scenario, which is assault with the deadly weapon,

956
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: which is a vehicle. If you're drunk in a vehicle,

957
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: that can be construed that way. So, I mean that

958
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: could have been years of jail time, not just I

959
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: mean I got a couple of weekends in there, but

960
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: that day after was just like awful, just so drained,

961
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: and I'd never felt like more of a shell of

962
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: a person I think in my life than that.

963
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: You can't pretend. I can't pretend anymore.

964
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they always say bottoms when you stop digging, right, Yeah,

965
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to dig anymore.

966
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't need any more. I didn't need

967
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: to gain any more information. I think Ashley said this often,

968
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: maybe not in these words, but I need to do

969
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 1: some more research or I need to get some more information.

970
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: That's something that often will say to somebody who doesn't

971
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: have enough proof yet that they're something here, and you're.

972
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I got all.

973
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 1: I did all the research I needed to do at

974
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: that point, Yeah, I had to now look at what

975
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: the research was telling me, you said, and we touched

976
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: on this before, but you said that therapy is better

977
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: when you tell the truth. What would you say to

978
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: somebody because you know that there are so many people

979
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: like this, and I know that there are people and

980
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: I've been one of these people too, that can feel

981
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: so untrue. What do you mean it's it can be

982
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: better if I acknowledge this thing that is so scary

983
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: and terrifying and shame provoking and all that. What would

984
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: you say to somebody who says, I don't believe you.

985
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: How can telling the truth about this thing that I

986
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: think is horrendous help me?

987
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: I Mean, the biggest cliche is that is like there is.

988
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: Such freedom in doing it when you when you're completely

989
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: honest with yourself, and especially in that environment, it's so safe,

990
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: you know, Like I mean, you walk in and I'm

991
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: like I was, like I even like I wanted her

992
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: to like me, like I wanted I want to be

993
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 2: one of her favorite clients, you know, like I wanted

994
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: to win therapy, but that's not the point. And so

995
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: just being able to go in and just be honest

996
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: about things and just get them off your chest. And

997
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: the best thing about having therapy to do it is

998
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: you get to do that in a room and you

999
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: don't have to do it in front of everybody else. Yeah,

1000
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: Like you can work through some stuff and then realize

1001
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: what you want to share with others. What you don't

1002
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: have to have therapy with everyone you meet, right, And

1003
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: that's something that I think is interesting with when you

1004
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 2: start to get in recovery, is you start to want

1005
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: to have these conversations with everyone you meet, and so

1006
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: it's like.

1007
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: Hey, how's it going. I'm like, oh man, this is

1008
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 3: going on? Like oh no, no, they.

1009
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: Just just say good walk away, like they don't want

1010
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: to know about your wife and like you know how

1011
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: you just hit eighteen months without a drink, Like they

1012
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: don't want to know that. But you just get so open,

1013
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 2: which is great for a lot of people. When I

1014
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: think in therapy, it's just like yeah, because you don't

1015
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: realize what your manipulation until probably later, or if you

1016
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: are manipulating, like you just said, like there's probably a

1017
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: reason for it. Like if you're uncomfortable with it, it's

1018
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: another reason to air it out. And the safe space

1019
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: of it is just like a huge thing. So let's

1020
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 2: figure that out here.

1021
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: When you started to get honest, what was one thing

1022
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: that was You can say more than one thing, but

1023
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: what is one thing that was really hard to learn

1024
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: and accept about your either yourself, life, other people, God

1025
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: that you had to accept once you started to get.

1026
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: I mean, the hardest one was to say the word

1027
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 2: alcoholic and say the word addict like the A word

1028
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 2: like that to me is and it's still not the

1029
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: most comfortable thing in the world. So that was tough.

1030
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 3: Was because you still think I don't know.

1031
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: But there's I think in that I don't know this

1032
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: If this is true for you, I think that happens

1033
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: often because it's so hard to remove the fact that

1034
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: this is not a not a choice you made. Yeah,

1035
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: I can't say for sure that this is true for

1036
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: all people, but rarely do people feel shame about saying

1037
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: things like I have cancer or I don't know a

1038
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: lot of diseases. I had my appendix removed, I happendicitis.

1039
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: There's not like, oh, it's so hard to admit. It's

1040
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: because we don't assume that, I mean, I have some cancers.

1041
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: You can make an argument for it, but we don't

1042
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: assume that somebody has appendicitis because they are making choices

1043
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, do you think that's part of it? Is?

1044
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: I still there's this part in my brain that.

1045
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: Still thinks it's my fault. Yeah, yeah, like why did

1046
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: you do this to yourself? Why did you let this

1047
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: get that far? And in the reality of it's like

1048
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 2: no if. And the weird thing about being an alcoholic

1049
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: and alcoholism is like there's no medical cure for it.

1050
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: So I wrestled with that forever.

1051
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: Because I'm like, how is this even a disease? I

1052
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: know there's disease without cures, but I'm like, this one

1053
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: people are technically cured in a way with no doctor

1054
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 2: intervention or medication.

1055
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 3: This can't be a disease. So if it's not a disease,

1056
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 3: I'm in control, right.

1057
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 2: So that's how I would go through it and pick

1058
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 2: it apart, because you know, my addict reasoned brain would

1059
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 2: do that with everything. Yeah, And so that was probably

1060
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 2: the heart one of the hardest things to face. It's like, no,

1061
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 2: I do not have any control over it. And there's

1062
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 2: a lot of proof to tell me.

1063
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: This, and that's scary to admit.

1064
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: And that's yeah, because you want to, you know, be

1065
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: the good person that can go out and have a

1066
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 2: good time and like be put together, but no, if

1067
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 2: I have one that's going to snowball and do a

1068
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: lot of different things.

1069
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: And what Tara, the therapist I did the episodes before

1070
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: this talked about is addiction is a brain disease, and

1071
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: a lot of mental health disorders and diseases. There are

1072
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,479
Speaker 1: things that you cannot see unless you do a scan

1073
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: on somebody's brain, And so it's hard to have a

1074
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 1: human sitting in front of you, especially if it's yourself.

1075
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: And you're looking in a mirror and you're like, I

1076
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 4: look healthy.

1077
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't look like something is there's no swelling here,

1078
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: or there's no this or whatever. I look healthy. I mean,

1079
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: depending on where your addiction takes you, that can we

1080
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: can argue that yeah, yeah, but it is hard to

1081
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: remember that it's because I'm not looking at the organ

1082
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: that's affected my brain. So going back to my original question,

1083
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: because I kind of cut you off, were you were

1084
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: you saying that one of the hardest things to learn

1085
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: about yourself is that you couldn't control this.

1086
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that I have an addiction?

1087
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, like blank, Like that's it? Were there any Because

1088
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: I find you to be from your writing a little existential.

1089
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: Were there any truths about the world and life that

1090
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: were hard to wrestle with without the medication of alcohol.

1091
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: I think what it was difficult about that was a

1092
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: twelve step or so alcoholic like aa, like, that's what

1093
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: I do. And you need to acknowledge that there's a

1094
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 2: higher power and there's something greater than you. Right, That's

1095
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: not something that I was really thinking about or wanted to.

1096
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: And so I struggled with that because you always look

1097
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: at I mean, there's like magic and there's belief in it,

1098
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 2: and there's stuff you can't see, and I wasn't seeing

1099
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 2: any of that. I was just like, no, that doesn't

1100
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: make any sense. And then a lot of addicts think

1101
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: they are in control. And so I like, no, I

1102
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: got this. And what I tell everyone when I you know,

1103
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 2: if I share, I'm speaking to somebody new. I'm like,

1104
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 2: what I stopped doing when I got sober is I

1105
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 2: stopped playing God.

1106
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 3: Oh.

1107
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: So I was trying to manipulate, move all the pieces,

1108
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 2: thinking I can control all these aspects of my life

1109
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 2: to keep drinking. So I was playing God in a sense.

1110
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: So when I got sober, I stopped playing God and

1111
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: I started looking for one, and then that's when things Actually,

1112
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 2: that's when the change happens, I think, because when you

1113
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 2: have you acknowledge, no, this is I'm not it and

1114
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it doesn't have to be religious, doesn't

1115
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 2: have to do it could be whatever. Like I've met

1116
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: some people like, yeah, my God is love. I'm like,

1117
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: that's beautiful.

1118
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: Well what you're saying is I acknowledge my humanness?

1119
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1120
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: And that is so it's so simple, and it's so

1121
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: hard to sit in our humility and say, wait, I

1122
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 1: can't know all be all, do all understand I can't

1123
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: understand it all. There's something that can, and I'm going

1124
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: to release that to them so I don't have to

1125
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: continue to get myself in this same predicament, which is

1126
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: so powerful, and I do think one of the hardest things,

1127
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: especially if you are somebody who has been hurt by

1128
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: their interpretation of who and what God is. So there's

1129
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,240
Speaker 1: a lot to that and something that would encourage anybody

1130
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: to explore whether you want to just like push it

1131
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: away or just run to it open arms. Both of

1132
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: them have their own reasons to dig into that. I

1133
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: want to close with this. I don't know if this

1134
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: is going to end up making these sense as a closing.

1135
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: But you mentioned that there's something your wife wants to note.

1136
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: What is that? Oh right?

1137
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: And we told about giving her a chapter in the

1138
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: book about this, but we thought it would be too

1139
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: much of a saving face chapter. It's a good thing,

1140
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: but it also comes with like which what made it

1141
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: hard is obviously I'm presenting this book that is showing

1142
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: all the deficiencies of my life the past couple of years,

1143
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to get that to, you know, show

1144
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: some common ground with people so they can resonate something

1145
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: relate to And so you know, a lot of the

1146
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: journal entries focus on those bad days, the bad mornings,

1147
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 2: this when I'm beating myself up, when I'm placing blame elsewhere,

1148
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: and all gaslighting, all the stuff that comes with addiction.

1149
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: One afternoon, she was reading a chapter and she's like,

1150
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: I want people to know that it wasn't all bad.

1151
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 2: She's like, you were still you, but it was just masked,

1152
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 2: like there were still great days, Like you were still

1153
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: doing things and taking care of me, and you didn't

1154
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: miss certain things that you always do, like we got

1155
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: married on December second. I've gotten her flowers on the

1156
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 2: second of every month since we got married. Oh my god,

1157
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 2: even on the worst days of a dick we could

1158
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 2: have a like we could not talk the night before

1159
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: she come home for work the next day, and the

1160
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 2: ever flowers on the counter, like those types of things,

1161
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: which probably made it harder because I'm keeping some stuff

1162
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: together but also going so far away the other way.

1163
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: And that was one point that she just wanted to

1164
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 2: like tell people, is it wasn't all Yeah.

1165
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: I don't see that as saving face. I see that

1166
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: as that is super relatable and goes back to how

1167
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: you started this as there wasn't a lot of stories

1168
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: like mine. My life wasn't outwardly chaos every day. There

1169
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: might have been chaos in every day, sure, but I

1170
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: think that's one of like, like you said, that's what

1171
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: makes it so hard is because you, your Unice was

1172
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: still there the atdict part was just fighting with it

1173
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: every single day.

1174
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's.

1175
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: Actually I'm glad that you're able to share that, and

1176
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: that she's able to say share that and wants people

1177
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: to know that.

1178
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: Everyone always asks, you know, what's her take on the

1179
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: book and the journey, But I mean she's just been

1180
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 2: wonderful the whole way through, and she read everything before

1181
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 2: anyone else did, and it was like, if there's anything

1182
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: you don't want to hear, you have to.

1183
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 3: Let me know.

1184
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to like there's not going to

1185
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 2: be any qualm like you just if this is wrong

1186
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 2: or if this is it. And there was one point

1187
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,439
Speaker 2: where I had to take something out of the book

1188
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: because I thought at that point in time I had

1189
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 2: she didn't know about certain things, and she read it

1190
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 2: and she's like she texted me it's like, oh, I

1191
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 2: absolutely know about that, or like I mean she called

1192
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: me out blunt when she needed to.

1193
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: She's like, you thought I didn't.

1194
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 3: Know I knew?

1195
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, where can people one?

1196
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 1: Thank you for having this conversation, writing the book, Thank

1197
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: you for having appreciation. Where can people find you? Where

1198
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: can they find the book? What do you want to

1199
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: lead them leader with?

1200
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1201
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: So the book title not yet too far Gone and

1202
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: the book website is not yet toofar Gone dot com.

1203
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 2: You can find me on Instagram. It's just Matthias John

1204
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 2: and I'll pop up. So those are like the two

1205
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 2: main places. And then the book comes out September fourteenth

1206
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 2: on Amazon. So you'll be able to pre order it

1207
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 2: on August.

1208
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: Fourteenth, Okay, so that is today, so people can go

1209
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,919
Speaker 1: the version. Yeah, pre order. From what I'm learning about

1210
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: books is it's very important.

1211
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 3: I guess I don't. I have a very I have

1212
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 3: a very interesting path for this book marketing thing. I'm

1213
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 3: not doing everything to planned because it's kind of for me.

1214
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: It's a soft launch, like I'm self publishing it, so

1215
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 2: I want to I eventually want to hook up with

1216
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 2: a publisher that can do cooler things and like get

1217
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 2: her to a water audience, and really the publishing versions

1218
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 2: so I could.

1219
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't help anyone sitting.

1220
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 2: On my laptop right now, right So I don't care

1221
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 2: if it's not perfect. I've said me and Ashley, Ashley

1222
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 2: and I have said what we wanted to say. And

1223
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: then if it starts to get tweaked in a different version,

1224
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: that's fine. But I wanted a self published version to

1225
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 2: get out to people and then that way I could

1226
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: start sending copies. Because what you mentioned before about having

1227
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: it potentially on people's you know, if they go to

1228
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: treatment it's on a bookshelf or something like that, is

1229
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 2: I'm researching recovery centers in every state I'm researching, you know,

1230
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 2: where people are going for what the director of each

1231
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 2: center and I'm just going to shift copies out.

1232
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: I was going to say, that's what you do. You

1233
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: send this to one person who's struggling, and they relate

1234
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: to it, and they're going to also want to pass

1235
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: that on too. So like, I love that idea of

1236
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: leaving on a bookshelf where somebody can find it, or

1237
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: on a bed when somebody walks in. The experience of

1238
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: walking into a treatment center can be so terrifying, and

1239
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: so imagine somebody finding a book that feels like almost

1240
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: like a friend.

1241
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 2: I didn't think the title was going to be as

1242
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: impactful as it has been, and from people faith talking

1243
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: to the book industry, they think that's one of the

1244
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 2: biggest I don't want to say selling points, because that's

1245
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 2: not really what this is about, but to say like

1246
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 2: you are not yet too far gone to someone who

1247
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 2: was thinking I'm out, Yeah, I'm down and.

1248
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,439
Speaker 1: Out everyone and everything not true, you know.

1249
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: And so like it just happened to come out in

1250
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 2: the title, and the longer that it's been with that

1251
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 2: and seeing it on a book cover, I'm like, no,

1252
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: this is really strong, and I'm really proud of that

1253
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 2: title and like what it can say to someone without

1254
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 2: even really opening it up.

1255
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I will put all that information in the show notes,

1256
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: so you can just click on all of that stuff,

1257
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: and then you can also find us the podcast on

1258
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: Instagram at you Need Therapy podcast and me at Kat

1259
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: dot der fada. If you have any questions about this

1260
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: conversation or any other ones, you can email me at

1261
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: you Neitherapy podcast dot com. If you have questions for

1262
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: this conversation, I assume you're open. Oh, absolutely right, So

1263
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: you can send them there and I could have you

1264
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: on for couch Talks, which is the episode we do

1265
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays where I answer questions you will send. So

1266
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: if you have a question or you relate to something

1267
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: or anything, please just send it. I read those and

1268
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 1: if we can make it work, I'd love to do

1269
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: this again. Those are short, usually ten to fifteen minutes,

1270
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: unless I get on a soapbox.

1271
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a challenge.

1272
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 4: I think I told you afore. I want to make

1273
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 4: this thirty minutes. This is what is this an hour

1274
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 4: and a half? Okay, all right, so it's time to

1275
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 4: wrap up. Thank you, and I hope you guys are

1276
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 4: having the day you need to have.

1277
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 1: I will talk to you on Wednesday for couch talks