WEBVTT - Killer Thriller Docu: Did a ghost help solve a murder? 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.570 Hi, guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. A 0:00:16.590 --> 0:00:19.690 woman is murdered and her body is found wrapped in 0:00:19.790 --> 0:00:22.930 chains and dumped in the Mississippi River. And nearly 30 0:00:22.930 --> 0:00:26.830 years later, a ghost may help lead investigators back to 0:00:26.910 --> 0:00:30.190 her killer. Today, I'm talking to Philip Kearney, who is 0:00:30.230 --> 0:00:33.530 the writer and director of HBO's The Pet Cemetery Murders 0:00:33.650 --> 0:00:37.530 a Ghost Story. So if you guys like ghost stories, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:39.780 you're going to love it. If you like true crime, 0:00:39.860 --> 0:00:42.820 you're going to love it. There is so much here. 0:00:43.490 --> 0:00:46.510 to talk about. And I will tell you that things 0:00:46.550 --> 0:00:50.200 that I did not believe at the beginning of the documentary, 0:00:50.659 --> 0:00:53.199 I sort of do believe now. So it is about 0:00:53.220 --> 0:00:57.540 the murder of Dorothy Thompson and this incredibly strange investigation 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.020 that followed. And the deeper that Philip Kearney got into 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.880 the case, the more disturbing and the weirder it became. Okay, guys, 0:01:06.900 --> 0:01:07.770 so let's get into it. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:09.160 Hi, how are you? 0:01:09.459 --> 0:01:10.940 Hi, how are you? Nice to see you. 0:01:11.430 --> 0:01:12.970 Lovely to see you. How are you keeping? 0:01:12.990 --> 0:01:15.810 Lovely to see you. I'm doing pretty well, thank you. 0:01:17.350 --> 0:01:21.870 I actually very happily got through your brilliant documentary, which 0:01:21.970 --> 0:01:24.890 is great because it's been creeping me out. 0:01:27.410 --> 0:01:30.569 I'm really pleased you watched it because it's always, it's 0:01:30.610 --> 0:01:32.410 just lovely when people have got to kind of send 0:01:32.450 --> 0:01:37.170 to the full series, you know, because it's a bit 0:01:37.220 --> 0:01:37.800 of a ride. 0:01:38.500 --> 0:01:43.319 Oh, well, I mean... Yeah, I definitely didn't expect what happened. 0:01:43.380 --> 0:01:46.919 And specifically, I guess, in the third episode. But I'm 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.260 sure most podcasters, they sent me the screeners. And it 0:01:50.300 --> 0:01:51.760 was so good. 0:01:52.300 --> 0:01:55.640 Yeah. It's so lovely to hear that because you work 0:01:55.660 --> 0:02:00.270 so hard. And then we started doing the press last week. 0:02:01.310 --> 0:02:05.380 And the first guy was like, so what does everybody 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.240 think of it? It's great. And I was like, well, 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.609 you're the first person I've spoken to. Wow. 0:02:10.630 --> 0:02:12.690 No, you're going to, I know the response is going 0:02:12.710 --> 0:02:16.609 to be amazing. And also because I do crime documentaries, 0:02:17.150 --> 0:02:20.750 so many of them are, this one was, was definitely 0:02:20.850 --> 0:02:27.300 unsettling and sad, of course, for Dorothy, but you brought 0:02:27.460 --> 0:02:33.840 in all of that New Orleans ghost story creepiness that is, 0:02:34.540 --> 0:02:36.970 I have to say, it was very entertaining. 0:02:37.490 --> 0:02:40.870 Yeah, I mean, the thing about... Yeah, what's amazing about it, actually, 0:02:40.970 --> 0:02:45.150 is this idea that we just kind of... Because a 0:02:45.150 --> 0:02:47.630 lot of people have said to me, you know, but 0:02:47.690 --> 0:02:49.859 how did you balance the kind of human story with 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:51.320 the ghost story? And I'm just going to say, well, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.000 all we kind of did was say, we're just going 0:02:53.020 --> 0:02:55.350 to tell the story as we're discovering it. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:56.060 Yes. 0:02:56.419 --> 0:03:00.250 And that's how we'll... reveal it. We'll find the best 0:03:00.290 --> 0:03:03.929 way of doing it dramatically. And actually, this is what 0:03:03.970 --> 0:03:06.150 people say. This is what they believe. So it's not 0:03:06.290 --> 0:03:10.500 that you're trying to manufacture this sort of creepy New 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:12.419 Orleans sort of haunted house. 0:03:12.460 --> 0:03:15.600 No, I know. It was very clear that they believed it. 0:03:15.860 --> 0:03:18.080 I'm going to save this question for the end. I 0:03:18.100 --> 0:03:20.420 want to know what you believe. And I'll tell you 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:25.020 what I believe. But we'll wait. We'll wait. So this documentary... 0:03:26.010 --> 0:03:28.380 There are so many elements of it that I just 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.100 absolutely loved. And because this is what we do here 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.960 at Killer Thriller, we do a lot of true crime. 0:03:34.660 --> 0:03:39.440 And it can be, you know, modern day true crime, 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.730 not just scary, but boring and desperate and tragic. And 0:03:44.770 --> 0:03:50.530 not that this wasn't, but the whole ghost story piece 0:03:50.570 --> 0:03:53.970 of this was so, I don't know if this is okay, 0:03:54.010 --> 0:03:56.980 but it was just so much fun to watch. And 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.220 it really was. It was just different from any of 0:04:00.970 --> 0:04:02.380 the docs that we usually cover here. 0:04:03.570 --> 0:04:05.190 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that 0:04:05.270 --> 0:04:08.730 really drew me to this case and to this particular 0:04:08.770 --> 0:04:12.150 story was the idea that it was so multilayered, that 0:04:12.170 --> 0:04:14.010 you've got this, at the heart of it, this really 0:04:14.370 --> 0:04:17.589 tragic story about Dorothy Thompson, who owns the Pet Cemetery 0:04:17.610 --> 0:04:22.719 in Toker, which is just outside New Orleans. in Louisiana 0:04:22.779 --> 0:04:26.780 and she's found murdered in 1985. And then this case 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.540 kind of unfolds across kind of 40 years. But actually 0:04:30.900 --> 0:04:33.460 that what you then have is the case being reopened 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.880 by the chief of police, a cold case cop called 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:42.110 John Duran in 2009, when someone comes forward saying, I 0:04:42.610 --> 0:04:45.050 know who did it. I can't stand it anymore. I've 0:04:45.070 --> 0:04:49.600 been haunted by Dorothy's ghost. So these are the facts. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.920 These are the facts of the case. These are the facts. Yeah. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.890 This is what John Duran. Yeah. So John Duran is 0:04:57.150 --> 0:05:00.150 this kind of incredible guy. And he was great with us, 0:05:00.190 --> 0:05:01.890 you know, making it as well. He kind of opened 0:05:01.930 --> 0:05:07.669 his doors to access everything there. But his kind of 0:05:07.710 --> 0:05:13.840 story is the sort of main thread there. of this 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:21.120 three-part docuseries, his encounter with a world that becomes increasingly unknowable, 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.850 increasingly not governed by facts, and that seems increasingly at 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:31.050 odds with the police training that he's got. This is 0:05:31.089 --> 0:05:36.930 a guy who's now deputy chief. So he's a really 0:05:36.990 --> 0:05:43.380 experienced seasoned cop, and he's forced to reconcile the world 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.160 of the pet cemetery and the world of the people 0:05:45.220 --> 0:05:49.460 who inhabit this and the kind of violent, traumatic history 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.140 of the place and the people who've lived there with 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.660 this kind of police training that kind of says, if 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.720 you follow the facts, you'll get to the truth. 0:05:59.279 --> 0:05:59.460 Right. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.500 But the problem with this is the truth leads you 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.460 to a very, very unsettling place. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.610 Yes, it certainly does. That's one of the things I 0:06:06.650 --> 0:06:09.250 love most about it, though, is I really had the 0:06:09.290 --> 0:06:13.800 way that it kept unfolding. And by episode three, it 0:06:13.820 --> 0:06:16.600 was just a completely different story for me than it 0:06:16.660 --> 0:06:22.320 was in episode one, right? And a story unlike any other. 0:06:22.810 --> 0:06:27.390 And also just discovering even the history of the Pet Sematary, right? Like, 0:06:27.510 --> 0:06:31.130 even finding out that there was a massacre there. That was, 0:06:31.990 --> 0:06:36.430 you know, that came before any of this. There were 0:06:36.830 --> 0:06:37.650 maybe there are ghosts. 0:06:38.230 --> 0:06:38.450 It was. 0:06:38.940 --> 0:06:42.290 like a haunted cemetery, some would say, because of the 0:06:42.510 --> 0:06:48.010 awful things that happened on that land, right? And we're 0:06:48.050 --> 0:06:50.950 going into it knowing that there was a murder there, right? 0:06:50.970 --> 0:06:53.370 And knowing that Dorothy was murdered, but then to uncover 0:06:54.250 --> 0:06:59.430 all this other past trauma, I don't know, I don't 0:06:59.450 --> 0:07:02.000 think I'd want to step on that cemetery. I don't 0:07:02.010 --> 0:07:03.520 think I'd want to have lunch there. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.120 One of the things about it is, and this is 0:07:07.140 --> 0:07:10.920 something that's really interesting and really important to the series 0:07:11.020 --> 0:07:13.960 actually is this idea of like can a place hold 0:07:14.020 --> 0:07:17.559 the trauma and the violent events that have happened there 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:19.860 and I think one of the things that we were 0:07:19.900 --> 0:07:22.900 really keen for and I know that HBO were always 0:07:22.980 --> 0:07:25.140 it was one of the first things we discussed was 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.000 this idea that this one little piece of land has 0:07:28.060 --> 0:07:33.410 got so many of America's original sins there You've got colonization, 0:07:33.430 --> 0:07:36.930 you've got enslavement, you've even got the opioid crisis. You've 0:07:36.970 --> 0:07:42.710 got all of this addiction, women's place in society, and 0:07:42.990 --> 0:07:47.420 a male-dominated world. So you've got all these subtle threads 0:07:47.500 --> 0:07:51.680 that just as this story unfolds, you're learning that this... 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.280 And you're forced to question, do people hold the trauma? 0:07:56.110 --> 0:07:57.350 or does the land hold the trauma? 0:07:57.370 --> 0:07:58.190 Land hold the trauma. 0:07:58.510 --> 0:08:01.390 You know, and I think we never, ever want to 0:08:01.470 --> 0:08:04.800 absolve anyone of personal responsibility or agency, but it was 0:08:04.810 --> 0:08:08.240 just something that we increasingly kind of said, why do 0:08:08.300 --> 0:08:13.340 so many awful, violent, bloody things happen in this one 0:08:13.620 --> 0:08:17.520 little piece of the earth? And that's something that by 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.400 the end of episode three, I think the story has 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.880 gone on such a kind of trajectory from this one 0:08:23.940 --> 0:08:28.190 woman's horrific demise to something that's on a far wider 0:08:28.890 --> 0:08:32.670 kind of canvas, broader canvas, but also that just kind 0:08:32.730 --> 0:08:35.790 of flips every idea about what a true crime show 0:08:36.190 --> 0:08:37.170 should be as well. 0:08:38.350 --> 0:08:39.290 In the sense that? 0:08:40.270 --> 0:08:44.980 In the sense that, you know, normally with these stories, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.720 unfortunately you have male perpetrators, female victims who have no agency, 0:08:49.740 --> 0:08:53.060 have no kind of like place in the world. And 0:08:53.100 --> 0:08:55.440 then you have male perpetrators cops who come in and 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.719 clean up the mess and put the male perpetrator. Whereas here, 0:08:59.740 --> 0:09:01.420 what you've got is a very different story with the woman. 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.360 The woman who's a victim also has a kind of 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:10.040 complicated backstory and a violent history. And then her mother, Grace, 0:09:10.059 --> 0:09:12.589 who's founded the Pet Sematary, is this extraordinary kind of 0:09:12.620 --> 0:09:16.950 force of nature with kind of a very, very, very 0:09:17.030 --> 0:09:20.630 violent backstory as well. So nobody is who they seem here. 0:09:20.970 --> 0:09:23.740 That's what, right. And that's what, that's what, kept me 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.280 so engaged. All of a sudden we were talking about ghosts. 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.179 And then we were talking about, uh, that we were, 0:09:32.620 --> 0:09:36.370 we were talking about, um, the mob. And then, you know, 0:09:36.450 --> 0:09:41.350 we were talking about women murdering their husbands. And then 0:09:41.710 --> 0:09:46.510 we were talking about, it was so much going on 0:09:47.220 --> 0:09:51.679 and the slaughter that happened first at the cemetery. And it, 0:09:52.010 --> 0:09:54.880 Just the twists and the turns were crazy. Did you, 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.720 going into it, you didn't know that it was going 0:09:57.740 --> 0:09:59.740 to turn out this way, right? You were filming it. 0:10:00.410 --> 0:10:00.910 No idea. 0:10:01.550 --> 0:10:05.309 Well, we, there, there, there's, there are a couple of 0:10:05.330 --> 0:10:08.750 key contributors who without giving too much away, you know, 0:10:08.790 --> 0:10:11.660 there's someone who also was haunted by Dorothy. So there's, 0:10:11.700 --> 0:10:16.620 there's several kind of hauntings in this. And there's also 0:10:16.660 --> 0:10:22.260 a kind of, really kind of extraordinary kind of sort 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.520 of narrative that we just kind of discovered as we 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.780 were researching it. I mean, by the time you go filming, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.280 you know the story you want to tell and that 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.360 changes when you're editing it all together. But I kind 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.080 of knew that at the heart of this was Dorothy 0:10:35.260 --> 0:10:38.640 and her mother, Grace. And that's the story that I 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.180 first kind of thought, okay, let's... And I knew there 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.350 was a backstory about enslavement in the area and there 0:10:44.370 --> 0:10:47.760 was a duel to the death and other... And then 0:10:47.780 --> 0:10:52.000 there was all the local lore and myth that's swirling 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:58.110 around this place. But then you're kind of like, how 0:10:58.150 --> 0:11:01.370 do I tell this? How do I unpack this kind 0:11:01.410 --> 0:11:08.070 of wild story while still keeping the victim front and center, 0:11:08.090 --> 0:11:11.360 but also telling a story that's compelling and that reveals 0:11:11.410 --> 0:11:14.870 itself like an onion? layer by layer, peeling it back. 0:11:15.450 --> 0:11:17.929 And also, it's almost like you're digging into the land 0:11:18.110 --> 0:11:20.600 and you're bringing up the bodies. I mean, that's kind 0:11:20.620 --> 0:11:23.859 of what is sort of extraordinary about it. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.780 And Dorothy's daughter, I can't remember her name. 0:11:29.340 --> 0:11:30.300 Christine. 0:11:30.460 --> 0:11:34.100 Christine, excuse me, that her part in this was so integral. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.599 First of all, she seems like such a grounded, or 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:43.680 can I use eloquent woman who... was talking about these 0:11:43.820 --> 0:11:47.700 atrocities that were committed to her mom by her grandmother. 0:11:48.300 --> 0:11:50.000 Going in, did she know all of this? 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.699 Yeah, she knew all of this. And she's just an 0:11:52.740 --> 0:11:53.860 incredible woman, actually. 0:11:53.900 --> 0:11:54.920 Yeah, she really seems it. 0:11:55.540 --> 0:11:56.740 And I think one of the things, you've got a 0:11:56.740 --> 0:11:59.800 real duty of care to all of these people because 0:11:59.830 --> 0:12:01.660 these are, you know, it's easy with a story that's 0:12:01.750 --> 0:12:04.890 as kind of extraordinary and as kind of compelling as this. 0:12:05.530 --> 0:12:05.770 Yeah. 0:12:06.130 --> 0:12:09.850 Kind of forget that these are real people who live 0:12:09.890 --> 0:12:12.390 in real lives. this is real damage and I think 0:12:12.410 --> 0:12:15.370 Christine is kind of testament to the fact that this 0:12:15.410 --> 0:12:19.939 intergenerational trauma that she inherited kind of stopped with her 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.960 and that was her kind of main and she says 0:12:22.980 --> 0:12:26.050 it in the series you know this idea that you 0:12:26.150 --> 0:12:30.070 can't keep on hating and hurting you've got to break 0:12:30.110 --> 0:12:32.690 the cycle it's got to end with you you can't 0:12:32.730 --> 0:12:36.110 then pass that on to your family and that was 0:12:36.170 --> 0:12:40.160 one of the things that she was so amazingly eloquent 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:45.800 as you say about this idea that her mother was 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.340 a complicated woman who lived a really difficult life and 0:12:49.490 --> 0:12:52.230 really horrible circumstances and who was a victim in many 0:12:52.290 --> 0:12:55.230 ways not just a victim of murder but also a 0:12:55.270 --> 0:13:00.160 victim of at the hands of violent men. And I 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.320 think something that the more I kind of spoke to 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.500 her and the more I kind of thought about the story, 0:13:08.090 --> 0:13:10.309 the more I kind of realized that you've got to 0:13:10.350 --> 0:13:12.329 have some, and she says herself at the end of 0:13:12.390 --> 0:13:15.030 episode three, you've got to have sympathy for this woman. 0:13:15.070 --> 0:13:19.250 This is a woman who lived a life that many 0:13:19.290 --> 0:13:21.490 of us just couldn't imagine. No. 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.220 Well, I also really thought it was so interesting that 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.880 she had such a good relationship with her grandmother and 0:13:27.940 --> 0:13:30.600 that the way that she described that her life was 0:13:30.660 --> 0:13:34.830 sort of wonderful when she and her siblings, I believe plural, 0:13:34.850 --> 0:13:40.050 went to go live with their grandmother until Dorothy got 0:13:40.090 --> 0:13:43.290 out of jail and went to go live with them, right? 0:13:43.670 --> 0:13:46.829 And that's when things really got terrible. But here we 0:13:46.870 --> 0:13:51.350 are looking at Grace, a very complicated human being, certainly 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.170 capable of violence. And I'm wondering, what was it like 0:13:55.230 --> 0:13:58.330 living with her? You know, was it that much easier 0:13:58.370 --> 0:13:59.390 than living with Dorothy? 0:14:00.230 --> 0:14:01.910 Well, I think the thing to be clear about was 0:14:01.929 --> 0:14:05.070 that when Christine's living with her grandparents, she's living with 0:14:05.090 --> 0:14:07.470 her father's parents. 0:14:08.190 --> 0:14:11.480 Oh, her paternal parents. Oh, so she wasn't living with Grace. 0:14:11.540 --> 0:14:17.000 She wasn't living with Grace. So what happens is that Dorothy, 0:14:17.420 --> 0:14:20.320 without giving too much away, as you say, spends time 0:14:20.420 --> 0:14:23.280 in jail. And when she gets out, she comes to 0:14:23.340 --> 0:14:29.130 see Dorothy and her husband's parents. And then she goes 0:14:29.150 --> 0:14:31.850 to live with Grace. So I think that's a kind of, 0:14:31.950 --> 0:14:34.850 it's clear when you're watching it in the series, but 0:14:34.870 --> 0:14:37.750 when you think back, you might back away from Grace. 0:14:37.790 --> 0:14:42.060 Yes, yes. Well, it's also the way that she said 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.859 that she knew that her daughter would have a much 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:51.050 better life. And that was why she actually left and 0:14:51.270 --> 0:14:52.890 went to go live with her mother, right? It doesn't 0:14:52.910 --> 0:14:55.130 sound like she put up much of a fight. And 0:14:55.170 --> 0:14:57.270 in that sense, I mean, she's, you know, obviously Christine 0:14:57.290 --> 0:15:00.110 said there was a ton of drugs and it was 0:15:00.130 --> 0:15:03.180 just terrible when she was there. But also, yes, that 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.120 part of it, watching this woman, you know, view the 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:12.740 past and her mother who was abused and abusive with 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:13.750 such grace. 0:15:14.370 --> 0:15:16.850 Yeah. And that's the word I use, grace, because I 0:15:16.890 --> 0:15:24.960 think she, has this kind of very grounded, centered attitude 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.760 towards her family history. Because I think you can either 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.200 be destroyed by a history like that and by kind 0:15:31.260 --> 0:15:34.920 of events that you've experienced, or you can kind of 0:15:35.460 --> 0:15:37.780 move through that, walk through it. And I think that's 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:42.620 something that she's kind of consciously and actively done over 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.570 the course of her life. And I think that, and 0:15:45.610 --> 0:15:47.670 also I think the thing that she's very aware of 0:15:47.750 --> 0:15:51.270 is that is that the life, the world that Dorothy 0:15:51.450 --> 0:15:55.590 lived in, this kind of San Francisco in the 40s 0:15:55.650 --> 0:15:58.810 and then New Orleans in the 50s, it's a very 0:15:58.850 --> 0:16:03.580 different world for women than the world that we have, thankfully, now. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.940 And I think that it's always important to sort of 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.600 see these people as part of social forces. And I 0:16:10.620 --> 0:16:13.720 think that's the thing that I know, you know, Christine 0:16:13.740 --> 0:16:15.600 always feels, but I really feel that as well, that... 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.180 It's easy to kind of criticize and critique based on 0:16:19.210 --> 0:16:22.050 a 21st century view of how things are, whereas I 0:16:22.050 --> 0:16:26.410 think it was very different for all of these people then. Yeah. 0:16:27.850 --> 0:16:32.910 Even Katrina of it all, right? And that was just, 0:16:33.830 --> 0:16:37.630 to me, it was just so crazy that in the 0:16:37.740 --> 0:16:41.280 midst of all of this fighting and all of this, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:47.700 you know, complete... despair and violence. And then Katrina comes 0:16:47.820 --> 0:16:50.820 and wipes it all out. But there was still no 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:55.620 flattening the story. I'm not saying that as eloquently as you, obviously. 0:16:55.940 --> 0:16:57.560 But do you know what I'm saying? Like the fact 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.160 that Katrina came to wipe it out, the story should 0:17:00.180 --> 0:17:01.900 have been over. It should have been a cold case 0:17:02.020 --> 0:17:06.000 and been buried with everything else that was buried with Katrina, right? 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.510 And you just couldn't bury it. Yeah. 0:17:08.790 --> 0:17:11.270 And that's the thing, the past won't stay buried. You know, 0:17:11.310 --> 0:17:12.550 that's the thing about the past. 0:17:12.990 --> 0:17:13.150 Right. 0:17:13.210 --> 0:17:15.389 As long as there are people who remember or not 0:17:15.410 --> 0:17:19.340 have knowledge of what happened, then things have a tendency 0:17:19.380 --> 0:17:22.619 to kind of bubble up to the surface. Yeah. I 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.000 think one of the things that Katrina, I mean, Katrina, 0:17:25.100 --> 0:17:28.459 I'm glad you brought Katrina up because for me, making 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.639 the series, it's the most profound, the most profound thing 0:17:32.660 --> 0:17:35.270 that I'll carry with me after this, apart from the 0:17:35.310 --> 0:17:39.240 story itself is, is Katrina, because I think everyone we 0:17:39.260 --> 0:17:42.340 spoke to was affected by it in some way, shape 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.310 or form, and they were all scarred by it and 0:17:44.330 --> 0:17:48.669 they all were traumatised by it in some way. And actually, 0:17:49.030 --> 0:17:55.090 you realise how Katrina was indiscriminate initially, at least physically, 0:17:55.109 --> 0:17:58.790 in the way that it wreaked havoc across that area. 0:17:59.570 --> 0:18:04.129 And really, for me, it was so powerful to hear 0:18:04.790 --> 0:18:08.530 how they were all impacted upon and continue to be 0:18:08.550 --> 0:18:12.250 impacted upon by that event. And then, as you say, 0:18:12.350 --> 0:18:15.730 Katrina and the story, you would think that's the end 0:18:15.780 --> 0:18:20.240 of everything. You know, that's it. Everything's gone. 0:18:20.300 --> 0:18:24.240 Yes. And so did the police. You know, they said, well, 0:18:24.300 --> 0:18:25.300 you know, that's that. 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.320 But no. And that's kind of one of the most, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.100 one of my favorite moments, actually, is, you know, because 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.540 I think the Katrina sequence is so powerful. And you 0:18:35.580 --> 0:18:37.899 really get a sense of the violence of that and 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.040 the impact it had. But then also coming out of that, 0:18:40.060 --> 0:18:44.520 you then learn how that affects the case through Duran, 0:18:44.619 --> 0:18:49.619 the cop. And then off the back of that, what then, like, reignites. 0:18:49.660 --> 0:18:53.150 She just could not stay chained. I mean, seriously. And 0:18:54.810 --> 0:18:56.730 I wanted to wait until the end, but it just 0:18:56.810 --> 0:19:00.149 is so compelling because I am not someone who necessarily 0:19:00.250 --> 0:19:04.710 believes in ghosts. My husband does. And... So he's always 0:19:04.750 --> 0:19:07.650 a little creeped out any place that he hears there 0:19:07.670 --> 0:19:10.590 have been ghosts. I'm always sort of the mindset, well, 0:19:10.609 --> 0:19:12.429 even if there are ghosts, they don't bother anyone. What 0:19:12.450 --> 0:19:16.200 are they doing? Maybe I picture, well, here in America, 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.080 we call it Casper the friendly ghost. But I've never 0:19:19.180 --> 0:19:22.899 really been afraid of or creeped out. And then when 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.140 I watched both of these men say that they were 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.570 visited by a ghost and they were both so scared 0:19:31.609 --> 0:19:35.740 and afraid of going to hell, And it was a 0:19:37.369 --> 0:19:39.910 revelation for me. I honestly, and I mean this, like, 0:19:41.830 --> 0:19:44.399 I mean, it just didn't make no sense. Right. It's like, 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:50.100 there's nothing left. There's nothing even, after Katrina. And I 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.420 can't believe these people, two men had the same story. 0:19:53.500 --> 0:19:57.080 She came to visit them and in chains and the 0:19:57.140 --> 0:20:00.879 door swung open. I can just, how did that affect 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.520 you when you first heard of it? 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.980 Yeah, I mean, I really came into it kind of 0:20:06.010 --> 0:20:07.330 like a bit like you. I kind of had this 0:20:07.350 --> 0:20:10.990 sort of like slightly skeptical, you know, you know, it's 0:20:11.030 --> 0:20:15.090 just kind of coincidence and it's the pack. In this case, 0:20:15.130 --> 0:20:16.930 I thought it's the kind of guilt of what they know. 0:20:17.210 --> 0:20:19.889 I had that. Yes, that definitely occurred to me that 0:20:19.910 --> 0:20:24.260 they both really, it was, they'd gone crazy and as 0:20:24.300 --> 0:20:26.899 a result, they thought that, you know, that she was 0:20:26.940 --> 0:20:27.480 coming for them. 0:20:27.980 --> 0:20:32.240 But I think that there's something, I mean, without giving 0:20:32.260 --> 0:20:34.720 anything away, these two men hadn't spoken for 30 years. 0:20:34.940 --> 0:20:37.379 So it's not like they were friends and they were 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:39.740 sharing stories. Neither of them knew that the other had 0:20:39.780 --> 0:20:44.420 had the experience that they'd had. So it really, for me, 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.680 was kind of, it just forced me to kind of think, 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.060 at what point does the pile up of coincidences tip 0:20:51.140 --> 0:20:55.240 over into forcing you to change your opinion on this? 0:20:56.020 --> 0:20:57.980 And that's something that everybody's got a different kind of 0:20:58.000 --> 0:20:58.830 threshold for it. 0:20:59.500 --> 0:20:59.680 Yeah. 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.320 Depending on who's, I mean, speak to some people and 0:21:02.340 --> 0:21:06.619 they're just like, no. It's just, they knew what happened 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.020 and that's what they can live with. And then you 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:13.320 speak to other people and they're like, they go in 0:21:13.340 --> 0:21:15.270 kind of agnostic and they come out a believer, you know. 0:21:15.850 --> 0:21:18.630 And that's one of the great questions of the series 0:21:18.710 --> 0:21:21.310 actually is, you know, do ghosts exist? You know, is 0:21:21.330 --> 0:21:22.870 that possible? Is that a thing? 0:21:39.540 --> 0:21:42.480 Did you feel it when you were on the cemetery, 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:44.530 when you were there? Did you feel anything creepy? 0:21:45.109 --> 0:21:47.070 If I'm being honest, the first time I went, yes, 0:21:47.109 --> 0:21:47.830 I definitely did. 0:21:48.130 --> 0:21:49.650 Tell me about that. What did you feel like? 0:21:50.550 --> 0:21:52.770 So we went to scout locations to look at the 0:21:53.070 --> 0:21:55.629 cemetery and to see what we might film and to 0:21:55.650 --> 0:21:57.850 talk to the locals and just to say, hey, we're 0:21:57.869 --> 0:22:00.590 making this thing. And I was with the director of photography, 0:22:00.609 --> 0:22:05.150 the DOP, and we went on the land and we 0:22:05.190 --> 0:22:10.119 found that just the camera wasn't really working. Whenever we 0:22:10.140 --> 0:22:11.800 put it on the ground, it would like flick between 0:22:11.820 --> 0:22:15.690 video and still. And it just felt very sort of, 0:22:16.210 --> 0:22:17.890 it was just an odd, it was just an odd 0:22:17.930 --> 0:22:21.409 feeling there. And that's something that, I mean, if you 0:22:21.450 --> 0:22:23.370 speak to all the locals, they've all got a story 0:22:23.390 --> 0:22:25.669 about the pet cemetery. So I'm not saying anything in 0:22:25.770 --> 0:22:27.940 any way out of turn here. Do they really? 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:29.180 They all have their own? 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:30.629 Yeah, they all have a story about it. 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.080 Sounds like all the kids were afraid of it, right? 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:34.879 Parents don't go there. 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.399 But then I think, when I went back repeatedly, that 0:22:38.420 --> 0:22:40.230 was the only time I ever felt anything. I felt, 0:22:40.270 --> 0:22:43.430 you know, that to be honest, and also making aware 0:22:43.450 --> 0:22:45.510 that this is a place that people live beside, you know, 0:22:45.530 --> 0:22:48.930 the locals live there and it's private land as well. 0:22:49.109 --> 0:22:51.330 So obviously we got permission to, to be there, but, but, 0:22:51.530 --> 0:22:54.040 but other people, you know, it's not somewhere that you 0:22:54.100 --> 0:22:58.740 can legally trespass upon. So, so yeah, I mean, it 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:00.359 was just a really interest. I mean, for us, it 0:23:00.380 --> 0:23:04.109