1 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,570 Speaker 1: Hi, guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. A 2 00:00:16,590 --> 00:00:19,690 Speaker 1: woman is murdered and her body is found wrapped in 3 00:00:19,790 --> 00:00:22,930 Speaker 1: chains and dumped in the Mississippi River. And nearly 30 4 00:00:22,930 --> 00:00:26,830 Speaker 1: years later, a ghost may help lead investigators back to 5 00:00:26,910 --> 00:00:30,190 Speaker 1: her killer. Today, I'm talking to Philip Kearney, who is 6 00:00:30,230 --> 00:00:33,530 Speaker 1: the writer and director of HBO's The Pet Cemetery Murders 7 00:00:33,650 --> 00:00:37,530 Speaker 1: a Ghost Story. So if you guys like ghost stories, 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,780 Speaker 1: you're going to love it. If you like true crime, 9 00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:42,820 Speaker 1: you're going to love it. There is so much here. 10 00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:46,510 Speaker 1: to talk about. And I will tell you that things 11 00:00:46,550 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: that I did not believe at the beginning of the documentary, 12 00:00:50,659 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: I sort of do believe now. So it is about 13 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:57,540 Speaker 1: the murder of Dorothy Thompson and this incredibly strange investigation 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,020 Speaker 1: that followed. And the deeper that Philip Kearney got into 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: the case, the more disturbing and the weirder it became. Okay, guys, 16 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:07,770 Speaker 1: so let's get into it. 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: Hi, how are you? 18 00:01:09,459 --> 00:01:10,940 Speaker 1: Hi, how are you? Nice to see you. 19 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:12,970 Speaker 2: Lovely to see you. How are you keeping? 20 00:01:12,990 --> 00:01:15,810 Speaker 1: Lovely to see you. I'm doing pretty well, thank you. 21 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:21,870 Speaker 1: I actually very happily got through your brilliant documentary, which 22 00:01:21,970 --> 00:01:24,890 Speaker 1: is great because it's been creeping me out. 23 00:01:27,410 --> 00:01:30,569 Speaker 2: I'm really pleased you watched it because it's always, it's 24 00:01:30,610 --> 00:01:32,410 Speaker 2: just lovely when people have got to kind of send 25 00:01:32,450 --> 00:01:37,170 Speaker 2: to the full series, you know, because it's a bit 26 00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: of a ride. 27 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: Oh, well, I mean... Yeah, I definitely didn't expect what happened. 28 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:46,919 Speaker 1: And specifically, I guess, in the third episode. But I'm 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,260 Speaker 1: sure most podcasters, they sent me the screeners. And it 30 00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: was so good. 31 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's so lovely to hear that because you work 32 00:01:55,660 --> 00:02:00,270 Speaker 2: so hard. And then we started doing the press last week. 33 00:02:01,310 --> 00:02:05,380 Speaker 2: And the first guy was like, so what does everybody 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: think of it? It's great. And I was like, well, 35 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,609 Speaker 2: you're the first person I've spoken to. Wow. 36 00:02:10,630 --> 00:02:12,690 Speaker 1: No, you're going to, I know the response is going 37 00:02:12,710 --> 00:02:16,609 Speaker 1: to be amazing. And also because I do crime documentaries, 38 00:02:17,150 --> 00:02:20,750 Speaker 1: so many of them are, this one was, was definitely 39 00:02:20,850 --> 00:02:27,300 Speaker 1: unsettling and sad, of course, for Dorothy, but you brought 40 00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: in all of that New Orleans ghost story creepiness that is, 41 00:02:34,540 --> 00:02:36,970 Speaker 1: I have to say, it was very entertaining. 42 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:40,870 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the thing about... Yeah, what's amazing about it, actually, 43 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:45,150 Speaker 2: is this idea that we just kind of... Because a 44 00:02:45,150 --> 00:02:47,630 Speaker 2: lot of people have said to me, you know, but 45 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:49,859 Speaker 2: how did you balance the kind of human story with 46 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: the ghost story? And I'm just going to say, well, 47 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: all we kind of did was say, we're just going 48 00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:55,350 Speaker 2: to tell the story as we're discovering it. 49 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:56,060 Speaker 1: Yes. 50 00:02:56,419 --> 00:03:00,250 Speaker 2: And that's how we'll... reveal it. We'll find the best 51 00:03:00,290 --> 00:03:03,929 Speaker 2: way of doing it dramatically. And actually, this is what 52 00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:06,150 Speaker 2: people say. This is what they believe. So it's not 53 00:03:06,290 --> 00:03:10,500 Speaker 2: that you're trying to manufacture this sort of creepy New 54 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,419 Speaker 2: Orleans sort of haunted house. 55 00:03:12,460 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: No, I know. It was very clear that they believed it. 56 00:03:15,860 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to save this question for the end. I 57 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,420 Speaker 1: want to know what you believe. And I'll tell you 58 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,020 Speaker 1: what I believe. But we'll wait. We'll wait. So this documentary... 59 00:03:26,010 --> 00:03:28,380 Speaker 1: There are so many elements of it that I just 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,100 Speaker 1: absolutely loved. And because this is what we do here 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: at Killer Thriller, we do a lot of true crime. 62 00:03:34,660 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: And it can be, you know, modern day true crime, 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,730 Speaker 1: not just scary, but boring and desperate and tragic. And 64 00:03:44,770 --> 00:03:50,530 Speaker 1: not that this wasn't, but the whole ghost story piece 65 00:03:50,570 --> 00:03:53,970 Speaker 1: of this was so, I don't know if this is okay, 66 00:03:54,010 --> 00:03:56,980 Speaker 1: but it was just so much fun to watch. And 67 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,220 Speaker 1: it really was. It was just different from any of 68 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:02,380 Speaker 1: the docs that we usually cover here. 69 00:04:03,570 --> 00:04:05,190 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that 70 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:08,730 Speaker 2: really drew me to this case and to this particular 71 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:12,150 Speaker 2: story was the idea that it was so multilayered, that 72 00:04:12,170 --> 00:04:14,010 Speaker 2: you've got this, at the heart of it, this really 73 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:17,589 Speaker 2: tragic story about Dorothy Thompson, who owns the Pet Cemetery 74 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: in Toker, which is just outside New Orleans. in Louisiana 75 00:04:22,779 --> 00:04:26,780 Speaker 2: and she's found murdered in 1985. And then this case 76 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,540 Speaker 2: kind of unfolds across kind of 40 years. But actually 77 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:33,460 Speaker 2: that what you then have is the case being reopened 78 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: by the chief of police, a cold case cop called 79 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:42,110 Speaker 2: John Duran in 2009, when someone comes forward saying, I 80 00:04:42,610 --> 00:04:45,050 Speaker 2: know who did it. I can't stand it anymore. I've 81 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: been haunted by Dorothy's ghost. So these are the facts. 82 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: These are the facts of the case. These are the facts. Yeah. 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,890 Speaker 2: This is what John Duran. Yeah. So John Duran is 84 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:00,150 Speaker 2: this kind of incredible guy. And he was great with us, 85 00:05:00,190 --> 00:05:01,890 Speaker 2: you know, making it as well. He kind of opened 86 00:05:01,930 --> 00:05:07,669 Speaker 2: his doors to access everything there. But his kind of 87 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: story is the sort of main thread there. of this 88 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: three-part docuseries, his encounter with a world that becomes increasingly unknowable, 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,850 Speaker 2: increasingly not governed by facts, and that seems increasingly at 90 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,050 Speaker 2: odds with the police training that he's got. This is 91 00:05:31,089 --> 00:05:36,930 Speaker 2: a guy who's now deputy chief. So he's a really 92 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:43,380 Speaker 2: experienced seasoned cop, and he's forced to reconcile the world 93 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: of the pet cemetery and the world of the people 94 00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:49,460 Speaker 2: who inhabit this and the kind of violent, traumatic history 95 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,140 Speaker 2: of the place and the people who've lived there with 96 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,660 Speaker 2: this kind of police training that kind of says, if 97 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: you follow the facts, you'll get to the truth. 98 00:05:59,279 --> 00:05:59,460 Speaker 1: Right. 99 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,500 Speaker 2: But the problem with this is the truth leads you 100 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,460 Speaker 2: to a very, very unsettling place. 101 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,610 Speaker 1: Yes, it certainly does. That's one of the things I 102 00:06:06,650 --> 00:06:09,250 Speaker 1: love most about it, though, is I really had the 103 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: way that it kept unfolding. And by episode three, it 104 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: was just a completely different story for me than it 105 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: was in episode one, right? And a story unlike any other. 106 00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:27,390 Speaker 1: And also just discovering even the history of the Pet Sematary, right? Like, 107 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:31,130 Speaker 1: even finding out that there was a massacre there. That was, 108 00:06:31,990 --> 00:06:36,430 Speaker 1: you know, that came before any of this. There were 109 00:06:36,830 --> 00:06:37,650 Speaker 1: maybe there are ghosts. 110 00:06:38,230 --> 00:06:38,450 Speaker 2: It was. 111 00:06:38,940 --> 00:06:42,290 Speaker 1: like a haunted cemetery, some would say, because of the 112 00:06:42,510 --> 00:06:48,010 Speaker 1: awful things that happened on that land, right? And we're 113 00:06:48,050 --> 00:06:50,950 Speaker 1: going into it knowing that there was a murder there, right? 114 00:06:50,970 --> 00:06:53,370 Speaker 1: And knowing that Dorothy was murdered, but then to uncover 115 00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:59,430 Speaker 1: all this other past trauma, I don't know, I don't 116 00:06:59,450 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: think I'd want to step on that cemetery. I don't 117 00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: think I'd want to have lunch there. 118 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: One of the things about it is, and this is 119 00:07:07,140 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: something that's really interesting and really important to the series 120 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: actually is this idea of like can a place hold 121 00:07:14,020 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 2: the trauma and the violent events that have happened there 122 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:19,860 Speaker 2: and I think one of the things that we were 123 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:22,900 Speaker 2: really keen for and I know that HBO were always 124 00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:25,140 Speaker 2: it was one of the first things we discussed was 125 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: this idea that this one little piece of land has 126 00:07:28,060 --> 00:07:33,410 Speaker 2: got so many of America's original sins there You've got colonization, 127 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:36,930 Speaker 2: you've got enslavement, you've even got the opioid crisis. You've 128 00:07:36,970 --> 00:07:42,710 Speaker 2: got all of this addiction, women's place in society, and 129 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:47,420 Speaker 2: a male-dominated world. So you've got all these subtle threads 130 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: that just as this story unfolds, you're learning that this... 131 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: And you're forced to question, do people hold the trauma? 132 00:07:56,110 --> 00:07:57,350 Speaker 2: or does the land hold the trauma? 133 00:07:57,370 --> 00:07:58,190 Speaker 1: Land hold the trauma. 134 00:07:58,510 --> 00:08:01,390 Speaker 2: You know, and I think we never, ever want to 135 00:08:01,470 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: absolve anyone of personal responsibility or agency, but it was 136 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: just something that we increasingly kind of said, why do 137 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:13,340 Speaker 2: so many awful, violent, bloody things happen in this one 138 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: little piece of the earth? And that's something that by 139 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: the end of episode three, I think the story has 140 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: gone on such a kind of trajectory from this one 141 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:28,190 Speaker 2: woman's horrific demise to something that's on a far wider 142 00:08:28,890 --> 00:08:32,670 Speaker 2: kind of canvas, broader canvas, but also that just kind 143 00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:35,790 Speaker 2: of flips every idea about what a true crime show 144 00:08:36,190 --> 00:08:37,170 Speaker 2: should be as well. 145 00:08:38,350 --> 00:08:39,290 Speaker 1: In the sense that? 146 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:44,980 Speaker 2: In the sense that, you know, normally with these stories, 147 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: unfortunately you have male perpetrators, female victims who have no agency, 148 00:08:49,740 --> 00:08:53,060 Speaker 2: have no kind of like place in the world. And 149 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: then you have male perpetrators cops who come in and 150 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 2: clean up the mess and put the male perpetrator. Whereas here, 151 00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:01,420 Speaker 2: what you've got is a very different story with the woman. 152 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: The woman who's a victim also has a kind of 153 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: complicated backstory and a violent history. And then her mother, Grace, 154 00:09:10,059 --> 00:09:12,589 Speaker 2: who's founded the Pet Sematary, is this extraordinary kind of 155 00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:16,950 Speaker 2: force of nature with kind of a very, very, very 156 00:09:17,030 --> 00:09:20,630 Speaker 2: violent backstory as well. So nobody is who they seem here. 157 00:09:20,970 --> 00:09:23,740 Speaker 1: That's what, right. And that's what, that's what, kept me 158 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: so engaged. All of a sudden we were talking about ghosts. 159 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,179 Speaker 1: And then we were talking about, uh, that we were, 160 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:36,370 Speaker 1: we were talking about, um, the mob. And then, you know, 161 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:41,350 Speaker 1: we were talking about women murdering their husbands. And then 162 00:09:41,710 --> 00:09:46,510 Speaker 1: we were talking about, it was so much going on 163 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: and the slaughter that happened first at the cemetery. And it, 164 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: Just the twists and the turns were crazy. Did you, 165 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: going into it, you didn't know that it was going 166 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:59,740 Speaker 1: to turn out this way, right? You were filming it. 167 00:10:00,410 --> 00:10:00,910 Speaker 1: No idea. 168 00:10:01,550 --> 00:10:05,309 Speaker 2: Well, we, there, there, there's, there are a couple of 169 00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:08,750 Speaker 2: key contributors who without giving too much away, you know, 170 00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:11,660 Speaker 2: there's someone who also was haunted by Dorothy. So there's, 171 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:16,620 Speaker 2: there's several kind of hauntings in this. And there's also 172 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:22,260 Speaker 2: a kind of, really kind of extraordinary kind of sort 173 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: of narrative that we just kind of discovered as we 174 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,780 Speaker 2: were researching it. I mean, by the time you go filming, 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: you know the story you want to tell and that 176 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: changes when you're editing it all together. But I kind 177 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: of knew that at the heart of this was Dorothy 178 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: and her mother, Grace. And that's the story that I 179 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,180 Speaker 2: first kind of thought, okay, let's... And I knew there 180 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,350 Speaker 2: was a backstory about enslavement in the area and there 181 00:10:44,370 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: was a duel to the death and other... And then 182 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: there was all the local lore and myth that's swirling 183 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:58,110 Speaker 2: around this place. But then you're kind of like, how 184 00:10:58,150 --> 00:11:01,370 Speaker 2: do I tell this? How do I unpack this kind 185 00:11:01,410 --> 00:11:08,070 Speaker 2: of wild story while still keeping the victim front and center, 186 00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: but also telling a story that's compelling and that reveals 187 00:11:11,410 --> 00:11:14,870 Speaker 2: itself like an onion? layer by layer, peeling it back. 188 00:11:15,450 --> 00:11:17,929 Speaker 2: And also, it's almost like you're digging into the land 189 00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: and you're bringing up the bodies. I mean, that's kind 190 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:23,859 Speaker 2: of what is sort of extraordinary about it. 191 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,780 Speaker 1: And Dorothy's daughter, I can't remember her name. 192 00:11:29,340 --> 00:11:30,300 Speaker 2: Christine. 193 00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:34,100 Speaker 1: Christine, excuse me, that her part in this was so integral. 194 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,599 Speaker 1: First of all, she seems like such a grounded, or 195 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: can I use eloquent woman who... was talking about these 196 00:11:43,820 --> 00:11:47,700 Speaker 1: atrocities that were committed to her mom by her grandmother. 197 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: Going in, did she know all of this? 198 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,699 Speaker 2: Yeah, she knew all of this. And she's just an 199 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:53,860 Speaker 2: incredible woman, actually. 200 00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, she really seems it. 201 00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:56,740 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things, you've got a 202 00:11:56,740 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: real duty of care to all of these people because 203 00:11:59,830 --> 00:12:01,660 Speaker 2: these are, you know, it's easy with a story that's 204 00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:04,890 Speaker 2: as kind of extraordinary and as kind of compelling as this. 205 00:12:05,530 --> 00:12:05,770 Speaker 1: Yeah. 206 00:12:06,130 --> 00:12:09,850 Speaker 2: Kind of forget that these are real people who live 207 00:12:09,890 --> 00:12:12,390 Speaker 2: in real lives. this is real damage and I think 208 00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:15,370 Speaker 2: Christine is kind of testament to the fact that this 209 00:12:15,410 --> 00:12:19,939 Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma that she inherited kind of stopped with her 210 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: and that was her kind of main and she says 211 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:26,050 Speaker 2: it in the series you know this idea that you 212 00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:30,070 Speaker 2: can't keep on hating and hurting you've got to break 213 00:12:30,110 --> 00:12:32,690 Speaker 2: the cycle it's got to end with you you can't 214 00:12:32,730 --> 00:12:36,110 Speaker 2: then pass that on to your family and that was 215 00:12:36,170 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: one of the things that she was so amazingly eloquent 216 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: as you say about this idea that her mother was 217 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,340 Speaker 2: a complicated woman who lived a really difficult life and 218 00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:52,230 Speaker 2: really horrible circumstances and who was a victim in many 219 00:12:52,290 --> 00:12:55,230 Speaker 2: ways not just a victim of murder but also a 220 00:12:55,270 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: victim of at the hands of violent men. And I 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: think something that the more I kind of spoke to 222 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,500 Speaker 2: her and the more I kind of thought about the story, 223 00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:10,309 Speaker 2: the more I kind of realized that you've got to 224 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:12,329 Speaker 2: have some, and she says herself at the end of 225 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:15,030 Speaker 2: episode three, you've got to have sympathy for this woman. 226 00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:19,250 Speaker 2: This is a woman who lived a life that many 227 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:21,490 Speaker 2: of us just couldn't imagine. No. 228 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,220 Speaker 1: Well, I also really thought it was so interesting that 229 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: she had such a good relationship with her grandmother and 230 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: that the way that she described that her life was 231 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:34,830 Speaker 1: sort of wonderful when she and her siblings, I believe plural, 232 00:13:34,850 --> 00:13:40,050 Speaker 1: went to go live with their grandmother until Dorothy got 233 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:43,290 Speaker 1: out of jail and went to go live with them, right? 234 00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:46,829 Speaker 1: And that's when things really got terrible. But here we 235 00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:51,350 Speaker 1: are looking at Grace, a very complicated human being, certainly 236 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,170 Speaker 1: capable of violence. And I'm wondering, what was it like 237 00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:58,330 Speaker 1: living with her? You know, was it that much easier 238 00:13:58,370 --> 00:13:59,390 Speaker 1: than living with Dorothy? 239 00:14:00,230 --> 00:14:01,910 Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing to be clear about was 240 00:14:01,929 --> 00:14:05,070 Speaker 2: that when Christine's living with her grandparents, she's living with 241 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:07,470 Speaker 2: her father's parents. 242 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: Oh, her paternal parents. Oh, so she wasn't living with Grace. 243 00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: She wasn't living with Grace. So what happens is that Dorothy, 244 00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: without giving too much away, as you say, spends time 245 00:14:20,420 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: in jail. And when she gets out, she comes to 246 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:29,130 Speaker 2: see Dorothy and her husband's parents. And then she goes 247 00:14:29,150 --> 00:14:31,850 Speaker 2: to live with Grace. So I think that's a kind of, 248 00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:34,850 Speaker 2: it's clear when you're watching it in the series, but 249 00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:37,750 Speaker 2: when you think back, you might back away from Grace. 250 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:42,060 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Well, it's also the way that she said 251 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,859 Speaker 1: that she knew that her daughter would have a much 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,050 Speaker 1: better life. And that was why she actually left and 253 00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:52,890 Speaker 1: went to go live with her mother, right? It doesn't 254 00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:55,130 Speaker 1: sound like she put up much of a fight. And 255 00:14:55,170 --> 00:14:57,270 Speaker 1: in that sense, I mean, she's, you know, obviously Christine 256 00:14:57,290 --> 00:15:00,110 Speaker 1: said there was a ton of drugs and it was 257 00:15:00,130 --> 00:15:03,180 Speaker 1: just terrible when she was there. But also, yes, that 258 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: part of it, watching this woman, you know, view the 259 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:12,740 Speaker 1: past and her mother who was abused and abusive with 260 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:13,750 Speaker 1: such grace. 261 00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:16,850 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's the word I use, grace, because I 262 00:15:16,890 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: think she, has this kind of very grounded, centered attitude 263 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: towards her family history. Because I think you can either 264 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: be destroyed by a history like that and by kind 265 00:15:31,260 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: of events that you've experienced, or you can kind of 266 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:37,780 Speaker 2: move through that, walk through it. And I think that's 267 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,620 Speaker 2: something that she's kind of consciously and actively done over 268 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,570 Speaker 2: the course of her life. And I think that, and 269 00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:47,670 Speaker 2: also I think the thing that she's very aware of 270 00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:51,270 Speaker 2: is that is that the life, the world that Dorothy 271 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:55,590 Speaker 2: lived in, this kind of San Francisco in the 40s 272 00:15:55,650 --> 00:15:58,810 Speaker 2: and then New Orleans in the 50s, it's a very 273 00:15:58,850 --> 00:16:03,580 Speaker 2: different world for women than the world that we have, thankfully, now. 274 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,940 Speaker 2: And I think that it's always important to sort of 275 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: see these people as part of social forces. And I 276 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: think that's the thing that I know, you know, Christine 277 00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: always feels, but I really feel that as well, that... 278 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,180 Speaker 2: It's easy to kind of criticize and critique based on 279 00:16:19,210 --> 00:16:22,050 Speaker 2: a 21st century view of how things are, whereas I 280 00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:26,410 Speaker 2: think it was very different for all of these people then. Yeah. 281 00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:32,910 Speaker 1: Even Katrina of it all, right? And that was just, 282 00:16:33,830 --> 00:16:37,630 Speaker 1: to me, it was just so crazy that in the 283 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: midst of all of this fighting and all of this, 284 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,700 Speaker 1: you know, complete... despair and violence. And then Katrina comes 285 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:50,820 Speaker 1: and wipes it all out. But there was still no 286 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,620 Speaker 1: flattening the story. I'm not saying that as eloquently as you, obviously. 287 00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: But do you know what I'm saying? Like the fact 288 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: that Katrina came to wipe it out, the story should 289 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:01,900 Speaker 1: have been over. It should have been a cold case 290 00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: and been buried with everything else that was buried with Katrina, right? 291 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,510 Speaker 1: And you just couldn't bury it. Yeah. 292 00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:11,270 Speaker 2: And that's the thing, the past won't stay buried. You know, 293 00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:12,550 Speaker 2: that's the thing about the past. 294 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:13,150 Speaker 1: Right. 295 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:15,389 Speaker 2: As long as there are people who remember or not 296 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:19,340 Speaker 2: have knowledge of what happened, then things have a tendency 297 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:22,619 Speaker 2: to kind of bubble up to the surface. Yeah. I 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: think one of the things that Katrina, I mean, Katrina, 299 00:17:25,100 --> 00:17:28,459 Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought Katrina up because for me, making 300 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: the series, it's the most profound, the most profound thing 301 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:35,270 Speaker 2: that I'll carry with me after this, apart from the 302 00:17:35,310 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: story itself is, is Katrina, because I think everyone we 303 00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:42,340 Speaker 2: spoke to was affected by it in some way, shape 304 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,310 Speaker 2: or form, and they were all scarred by it and 305 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:48,669 Speaker 2: they all were traumatised by it in some way. And actually, 306 00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:55,090 Speaker 2: you realise how Katrina was indiscriminate initially, at least physically, 307 00:17:55,109 --> 00:17:58,790 Speaker 2: in the way that it wreaked havoc across that area. 308 00:17:59,570 --> 00:18:04,129 Speaker 2: And really, for me, it was so powerful to hear 309 00:18:04,790 --> 00:18:08,530 Speaker 2: how they were all impacted upon and continue to be 310 00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:12,250 Speaker 2: impacted upon by that event. And then, as you say, 311 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:15,730 Speaker 2: Katrina and the story, you would think that's the end 312 00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: of everything. You know, that's it. Everything's gone. 313 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: Yes. And so did the police. You know, they said, well, 314 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:25,300 Speaker 1: you know, that's that. 315 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: But no. And that's kind of one of the most, 316 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,100 Speaker 2: one of my favorite moments, actually, is, you know, because 317 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,540 Speaker 2: I think the Katrina sequence is so powerful. And you 318 00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:37,899 Speaker 2: really get a sense of the violence of that and 319 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: the impact it had. But then also coming out of that, 320 00:18:40,060 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: you then learn how that affects the case through Duran, 321 00:18:44,619 --> 00:18:49,619 Speaker 2: the cop. And then off the back of that, what then, like, reignites. 322 00:18:49,660 --> 00:18:53,150 Speaker 1: She just could not stay chained. I mean, seriously. And 323 00:18:54,810 --> 00:18:56,730 Speaker 1: I wanted to wait until the end, but it just 324 00:18:56,810 --> 00:19:00,149 Speaker 1: is so compelling because I am not someone who necessarily 325 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:04,710 Speaker 1: believes in ghosts. My husband does. And... So he's always 326 00:19:04,750 --> 00:19:07,650 Speaker 1: a little creeped out any place that he hears there 327 00:19:07,670 --> 00:19:10,590 Speaker 1: have been ghosts. I'm always sort of the mindset, well, 328 00:19:10,609 --> 00:19:12,429 Speaker 1: even if there are ghosts, they don't bother anyone. What 329 00:19:12,450 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: are they doing? Maybe I picture, well, here in America, 330 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: we call it Casper the friendly ghost. But I've never 331 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:22,899 Speaker 1: really been afraid of or creeped out. And then when 332 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,140 Speaker 1: I watched both of these men say that they were 333 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,570 Speaker 1: visited by a ghost and they were both so scared 334 00:19:31,609 --> 00:19:35,740 Speaker 1: and afraid of going to hell, And it was a 335 00:19:37,369 --> 00:19:39,910 Speaker 1: revelation for me. I honestly, and I mean this, like, 336 00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: I mean, it just didn't make no sense. Right. It's like, 337 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,100 Speaker 1: there's nothing left. There's nothing even, after Katrina. And I 338 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,420 Speaker 1: can't believe these people, two men had the same story. 339 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: She came to visit them and in chains and the 340 00:19:57,140 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: door swung open. I can just, how did that affect 341 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: you when you first heard of it? 342 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,980 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really came into it kind of 343 00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:07,330 Speaker 2: like a bit like you. I kind of had this 344 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:10,990 Speaker 2: sort of like slightly skeptical, you know, you know, it's 345 00:20:11,030 --> 00:20:15,090 Speaker 2: just kind of coincidence and it's the pack. In this case, 346 00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:16,930 Speaker 2: I thought it's the kind of guilt of what they know. 347 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:19,889 Speaker 1: I had that. Yes, that definitely occurred to me that 348 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:24,260 Speaker 1: they both really, it was, they'd gone crazy and as 349 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,899 Speaker 1: a result, they thought that, you know, that she was 350 00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: coming for them. 351 00:20:27,980 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: But I think that there's something, I mean, without giving 352 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: anything away, these two men hadn't spoken for 30 years. 353 00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:37,379 Speaker 2: So it's not like they were friends and they were 354 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,740 Speaker 2: sharing stories. Neither of them knew that the other had 355 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:44,420 Speaker 2: had the experience that they'd had. So it really, for me, 356 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 2: was kind of, it just forced me to kind of think, 357 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,060 Speaker 2: at what point does the pile up of coincidences tip 358 00:20:51,140 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: over into forcing you to change your opinion on this? 359 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:57,980 Speaker 2: And that's something that everybody's got a different kind of 360 00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:58,830 Speaker 2: threshold for it. 361 00:20:59,500 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 362 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: Depending on who's, I mean, speak to some people and 363 00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:06,619 Speaker 2: they're just like, no. It's just, they knew what happened 364 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,020 Speaker 2: and that's what they can live with. And then you 365 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: speak to other people and they're like, they go in 366 00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:15,270 Speaker 2: kind of agnostic and they come out a believer, you know. 367 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:18,630 Speaker 2: And that's one of the great questions of the series 368 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:21,310 Speaker 2: actually is, you know, do ghosts exist? You know, is 369 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:22,870 Speaker 2: that possible? Is that a thing? 370 00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: Did you feel it when you were on the cemetery, 371 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,530 Speaker 1: when you were there? Did you feel anything creepy? 372 00:21:45,109 --> 00:21:47,070 Speaker 2: If I'm being honest, the first time I went, yes, 373 00:21:47,109 --> 00:21:47,830 Speaker 2: I definitely did. 374 00:21:48,130 --> 00:21:49,650 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. What did you feel like? 375 00:21:50,550 --> 00:21:52,770 Speaker 2: So we went to scout locations to look at the 376 00:21:53,070 --> 00:21:55,629 Speaker 2: cemetery and to see what we might film and to 377 00:21:55,650 --> 00:21:57,850 Speaker 2: talk to the locals and just to say, hey, we're 378 00:21:57,869 --> 00:22:00,590 Speaker 2: making this thing. And I was with the director of photography, 379 00:22:00,609 --> 00:22:05,150 Speaker 2: the DOP, and we went on the land and we 380 00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: found that just the camera wasn't really working. Whenever we 381 00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: put it on the ground, it would like flick between 382 00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:15,690 Speaker 2: video and still. And it just felt very sort of, 383 00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:17,890 Speaker 2: it was just an odd, it was just an odd 384 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:21,409 Speaker 2: feeling there. And that's something that, I mean, if you 385 00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:23,370 Speaker 2: speak to all the locals, they've all got a story 386 00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:25,669 Speaker 2: about the pet cemetery. So I'm not saying anything in 387 00:22:25,770 --> 00:22:27,940 Speaker 2: any way out of turn here. Do they really? 388 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,180 Speaker 1: They all have their own? 389 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,629 Speaker 2: Yeah, they all have a story about it. 390 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: Sounds like all the kids were afraid of it, right? 391 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: Parents don't go there. 392 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: But then I think, when I went back repeatedly, that 393 00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:40,230 Speaker 2: was the only time I ever felt anything. I felt, 394 00:22:40,270 --> 00:22:43,430 Speaker 2: you know, that to be honest, and also making aware 395 00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:45,510 Speaker 2: that this is a place that people live beside, you know, 396 00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:48,930 Speaker 2: the locals live there and it's private land as well. 397 00:22:49,109 --> 00:22:51,330 Speaker 2: So obviously we got permission to, to be there, but, but, 398 00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: but other people, you know, it's not somewhere that you 399 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:58,740 Speaker 2: can legally trespass upon. So, so yeah, I mean, it 400 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: was just a really interest. I mean, for us, it 401 00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:04,109 Speaker 2: was just like kind of fascinating part of the world and, 402 00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:07,490 Speaker 2: This idea of like the end of the world, which 403 00:23:07,550 --> 00:23:09,350 Speaker 2: is kind of what we set up at the beginning 404 00:23:09,369 --> 00:23:11,590 Speaker 2: of episode one, where it's like, it's the point at 405 00:23:11,630 --> 00:23:16,709 Speaker 2: which the kind of Mississippi is becoming Bayou that's becoming. 406 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:16,990 Speaker 1: Yeah. 407 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:17,700 Speaker 2: Right. 408 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: It was described like that. Right. 409 00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:21,379 Speaker 2: Right. And then you end up in the sea. So 410 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,460 Speaker 2: it's this point of literally at which you're, everything's falling apart. 411 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 2: You know, it's a kind of a great metaphor for 412 00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:29,100 Speaker 2: what happens in the, the Shula thing. 413 00:23:29,670 --> 00:23:32,390 Speaker 1: Wasn't there a sign now if I'm remembering correctly, did 414 00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:35,150 Speaker 1: you show a sign? Right. There was a sign that said. 415 00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:37,250 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 416 00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:39,690 Speaker 1: I'm always amazed by that kind of thing. I'm always 417 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:43,420 Speaker 1: amazed by what, what, you know, somebody like you, a 418 00:23:43,450 --> 00:23:48,300 Speaker 1: filmmaker catches that and feed so beautifully into the narrative. 419 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: And I feel like it wasn't just the sign. There 420 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: was just cinematography and, and new Orleans and, and, you know, 421 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:02,180 Speaker 1: what you captured in certain pictures of slaves. And it all, 422 00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: to me, it all meshed so beautifully, right? With, there 423 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: was just so much history and so much creepiness. 424 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,930 Speaker 2: And that's the thing, I think, that we were really, 425 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:17,710 Speaker 2: we wanted to tell a really compelling story that unfolded 426 00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:20,630 Speaker 2: like a movie in terms of how it, but then obviously, 427 00:24:20,650 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: because it's a documentary film, And it is stranger than fiction. 428 00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it really is stranger than fiction. So you're 429 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,859 Speaker 2: trying to do this balancing act where you've kind of gone, 430 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,699 Speaker 2: it's got to look amazing. You've got to respect the 431 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,459 Speaker 2: history and the victims that you've got here. And you've 432 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,060 Speaker 2: got to tell their stories and honor them. And then 433 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,580 Speaker 2: you've also got this kind of weird, like just gets weirder. 434 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: It just gets weirder and weirder. 435 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:46,379 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that was the thing that, so 436 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:48,139 Speaker 2: I kind of said to myself making it and when 437 00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:51,220 Speaker 2: I was writing it, I'm just going to come at 438 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,060 Speaker 2: it like everything's equivalent. You know, like if it's a 439 00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 2: ghost story, then that's just, you play it as a 440 00:24:58,460 --> 00:25:00,340 Speaker 2: ghost story. That's what it is. Because people, that's what 441 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,090 Speaker 2: people are saying. You honour their testimony. So you don't, 442 00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:08,330 Speaker 2: just because somebody's saying something that sounds far-fetched doesn't mean 443 00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:09,970 Speaker 2: you don't include it in the story. And I think 444 00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:11,510 Speaker 2: because you do that, then it has this kind of 445 00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:14,870 Speaker 2: power because these are the stories that they really believe. 446 00:25:15,470 --> 00:25:18,270 Speaker 2: So we didn't hype any of this up. This is 447 00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: just what folk told us. 448 00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: Even at the end, when you were talking, there was 449 00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:26,590 Speaker 1: one snake buried at the cemetery and they buried it 450 00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:30,090 Speaker 1: in the lined box, the showgirl, right? You see, you 451 00:25:30,109 --> 00:25:32,409 Speaker 1: show the picture of the showgirl. Is that the actual 452 00:25:32,450 --> 00:25:33,950 Speaker 1: woman with the snake? 453 00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:36,609 Speaker 2: That's not her, but it's a Bourbon Street. I mean, 454 00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:37,490 Speaker 2: it's very similar. 455 00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:39,250 Speaker 1: And then what do they play? What song is they 456 00:25:39,270 --> 00:25:39,770 Speaker 1: were burying? 457 00:25:39,790 --> 00:25:42,629 Speaker 2: They play Goodnight Irene. So it's kind of like, and 458 00:25:42,650 --> 00:25:45,149 Speaker 2: they have like two hearses and they have like a 459 00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:47,129 Speaker 2: kind of wake for the snake. 460 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Like what are we even talking about? Even that. 461 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think one of the things that we've got, 462 00:25:52,060 --> 00:25:54,859 Speaker 2: like the score, the music by Matthew Herbert, who's an 463 00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:55,660 Speaker 2: amazing composer. 464 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:55,820 Speaker 1: Yes. 465 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,340 Speaker 2: Who writes for like also one of the movies. So that, 466 00:25:58,380 --> 00:26:01,859 Speaker 2: the score gives it this kind of incredible kind of 467 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,260 Speaker 2: rich soundscape, which samples kind of all the animals that 468 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: are buried there. So there's like samples of cheetahs and 469 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: cats and dogs. So you've got this kind of like, 470 00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: almost like a sense in which the past is erupting 471 00:26:14,980 --> 00:26:18,030 Speaker 2: into the sound world as well as visually as well. 472 00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:18,750 Speaker 2: So it's incredible. 473 00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:22,570 Speaker 1: It really is incredible. And when, it was Grace, not Dorothy, 474 00:26:22,590 --> 00:26:26,010 Speaker 1: saying that she really didn't like people. She liked animals. 475 00:26:26,830 --> 00:26:31,510 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, it was perfect, right? And I'm like, well, 476 00:26:31,530 --> 00:26:34,550 Speaker 1: we could have probably guessed that. That's not, that doesn't sound, 477 00:26:34,570 --> 00:26:35,590 Speaker 1: that's not far-fetched. 478 00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:39,650 Speaker 2: What was really interesting was that before we started making this, 479 00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:42,659 Speaker 2: we did not have that archive. So we had no 480 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: archive of the Pet Sematary, which there's quite a lot. Yeah, yeah. 481 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,690 Speaker 2: There's no archive of the Pet Sematary. We were still 482 00:26:52,109 --> 00:26:54,070 Speaker 2: working out who was going to speak and who wasn't. 483 00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:57,190 Speaker 2: We had really solid access, but we were still trying 484 00:26:57,210 --> 00:26:59,390 Speaker 2: to find out. But then it was just that weird 485 00:26:59,430 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: thing where things just start to fall into place. And 486 00:27:01,859 --> 00:27:07,460 Speaker 2: then that archive is so central to the series in 487 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:12,020 Speaker 2: terms of how we revisit the same bits of Grace, 488 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 2: Dorothy's mother, who founded the Pet Sematary. We revisit bits 489 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,010 Speaker 2: of her talking about her attitude to people, her attitude 490 00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:21,129 Speaker 2: to animals. Yes. And through the course of the series, 491 00:27:22,010 --> 00:27:25,209 Speaker 2: it reveals a very different woman. And you look at 492 00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:27,950 Speaker 2: the words that she's saying and you read them in 493 00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:28,859 Speaker 2: a very different light. 494 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: Yes. I just kept thinking, you know, she was married 495 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: to a mobster. How many times did she shoot the wife? 496 00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: Through her breasts. And you're looking at her talking about 497 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,300 Speaker 1: animals with almost like a sweetness, like I don't know. 498 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: She felt to me in that moment sort of likable, right? 499 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: This murderer. 500 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,570 Speaker 2: And also people in the series, people say, oh, she 501 00:27:52,609 --> 00:27:54,570 Speaker 2: was great. She was a lovely person. 502 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:54,950 Speaker 1: Yeah. 503 00:27:55,330 --> 00:27:58,129 Speaker 2: You know, it's like, you know, she was all she was. And, 504 00:27:58,230 --> 00:28:00,090 Speaker 2: you know, and I think that's the thing with Grace. 505 00:28:00,150 --> 00:28:02,630 Speaker 2: I think without, you know, I'm trying to avoid plot spoilers, 506 00:28:02,690 --> 00:28:06,389 Speaker 2: but it's like, but it's, she is this kind of 507 00:28:06,450 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: incredible woman who got a place at the table in 508 00:28:11,780 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: a really violent world. And she kind of kept her 509 00:28:14,619 --> 00:28:19,380 Speaker 2: and she, you know, she kind of earned it by 510 00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:21,060 Speaker 2: any means necessary. Yeah. 511 00:28:21,619 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: And then also just getting to know Dorothy through her 512 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: friend's eyes, right? I'm sorry, I'm 58 years old and 513 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: it just comes and goes. 514 00:28:28,260 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 2: Patricia Newman. 515 00:28:28,940 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: Patricia Newman. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But getting 516 00:28:32,780 --> 00:28:35,699 Speaker 1: to know her and she was so likable to me 517 00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:38,700 Speaker 1: as well. I sort of loved her. But like just 518 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,100 Speaker 1: another great, character study almost. 519 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:42,530 Speaker 2: Right. 520 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:44,570 Speaker 1: I love the look of her. I loved everything that 521 00:28:44,610 --> 00:28:48,270 Speaker 1: she had to say. I loved her fondness for Dorothy. 522 00:28:48,290 --> 00:28:53,130 Speaker 1: And I loved when they wanted to pin it on her, how, and, 523 00:28:53,390 --> 00:28:56,030 Speaker 1: and she almost, it was just laughable to her. She 524 00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:59,590 Speaker 1: was just really, really like, I always hesitate to say character. 525 00:28:59,630 --> 00:29:04,290 Speaker 1: These are real people, but being, I couldn't without her. 526 00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:06,670 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could have pictured Dorothy having 527 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:07,050 Speaker 1: a friend. 528 00:29:07,930 --> 00:29:11,010 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one thing that is really, I mean, 529 00:29:11,050 --> 00:29:13,590 Speaker 2: Patricia Newman is a force of nature. She's an incredible 530 00:29:14,060 --> 00:29:14,630 Speaker 2: human being. 531 00:29:14,650 --> 00:29:15,380 Speaker 1: She's cool, yeah. 532 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: And she's formidable in the best sense of that word. 533 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:20,870 Speaker 1: That's exactly the word that I was looking for. 534 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:21,340 Speaker 2: You would not miss. 535 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. 536 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:25,020 Speaker 2: And she's brilliant. And she was so kind of charming 537 00:29:25,060 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: and great to spend time with. But she also just 538 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,450 Speaker 2: gives you this real insight, as you say, into Dorothy's 539 00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: mind and how she lived. and how she felt about 540 00:29:36,740 --> 00:29:43,650 Speaker 2: the Pet Sematary. easy to kind of forget how difficult 541 00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:45,950 Speaker 2: it was for a woman who was in the grip 542 00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:49,010 Speaker 2: of addictions to kind of run this place as a business. 543 00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: And I think Patricia was really incredibly supportive of her 544 00:29:53,970 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: and took her to run errands and took her to 545 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 2: the chemist. And then she obviously inherited it the Pet 546 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:04,180 Speaker 2: Sematary after Dorothy's death. But she was the one fighting 547 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: and screaming from the rooftops, as someone says, for this 548 00:30:09,020 --> 00:30:12,900 Speaker 2: person to be found, the killer to be found. So she, 549 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, she owes a lot of credit. You know, 550 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,700 Speaker 2: I know we were talking about Dorothy's ghost and, you know, 551 00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:18,620 Speaker 2: but she was the one who kept the case alive 552 00:30:18,660 --> 00:30:23,630 Speaker 2: when nobody wanted to hear about it. So I think she, yeah, 553 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: she's quite, I mean, she's quite the, As you say, 554 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: she's just an incredible character. And that's one thing with 555 00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:32,310 Speaker 2: this story. I mean, I don't know how you feel. 556 00:30:32,350 --> 00:30:34,930 Speaker 2: I'd be intrigued to see what you think, because one 557 00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:38,730 Speaker 2: thing that some of the other interviewers have said is 558 00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:43,500 Speaker 2: that it's interesting how it unfolds and reveals itself quite 559 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,940 Speaker 2: slowly and kind of sucks you in. And it's the 560 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: characters of the interviewees that do that in many ways. 561 00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 2: So a lot of people have said that it's kind 562 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,500 Speaker 2: of like, it's got this real kind of sense of 563 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,780 Speaker 2: which it's just like drawing you in and you just 564 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,270 Speaker 2: can't get out. And I suppose that's something that for 565 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,490 Speaker 2: a lot of people have said is that it's the 566 00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:04,370 Speaker 2: people that just make it so compelling as well as 567 00:31:04,410 --> 00:31:05,070 Speaker 2: the story. Yeah. 568 00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:08,630 Speaker 1: We'll find that. I oftentimes find that when, you know, 569 00:31:08,670 --> 00:31:14,250 Speaker 1: watching true crime documentaries and certainly people were the poll 570 00:31:14,290 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: here and, but also just the crazy circumstances and the 571 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,590 Speaker 1: coincidences and the history of it all, right? And I 572 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:31,209 Speaker 1: started episode one, when finished episode one, I couldn't have 573 00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:34,470 Speaker 1: told you after episode one that it would have gone 574 00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:36,410 Speaker 1: the way that it did by the end of episode three. 575 00:31:36,450 --> 00:31:39,489 Speaker 1: There was no, I found, maybe there was foreshadowing that 576 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,060 Speaker 1: I just didn't even notice, but I was in episode 577 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,050 Speaker 1: two and episode three I was shocked and shocked. And 578 00:31:46,090 --> 00:31:47,110 Speaker 1: then I was shocked again. 579 00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:50,030 Speaker 2: That was the plan was to kind of often what 580 00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:53,270 Speaker 2: you do is you front load and you say, hey, 581 00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:56,250 Speaker 2: this is all the stuff that's coming up. And, you know, 582 00:31:56,270 --> 00:31:58,670 Speaker 2: the top of the show in episode one. And then 583 00:31:58,710 --> 00:32:02,140 Speaker 2: you kind of like play out. And then we discussed 584 00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:04,460 Speaker 2: it to great depth about how to structure this, because 585 00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:08,540 Speaker 2: it was such a kind of you're getting this labyrinth. 586 00:32:09,070 --> 00:32:10,770 Speaker 2: And you're just kind of getting lost. And then all 587 00:32:10,790 --> 00:32:12,530 Speaker 2: of a sudden there's like one thing, there's another thing 588 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:14,030 Speaker 2: and another thing. And I think that was the thing 589 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:17,070 Speaker 2: that we kind of thought less like on reveal it 590 00:32:17,610 --> 00:32:20,270 Speaker 2: as if it's happening to you in real time. So 591 00:32:20,290 --> 00:32:23,310 Speaker 2: you're not, you don't foreshadow. We didn't really foreshadow anything. 592 00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:26,290 Speaker 1: And that was the kind of, I didn't know you 593 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:28,030 Speaker 1: really didn't. And that was cool. 594 00:32:28,550 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: You would never know where it's going. And even if 595 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: you Google it, if you Google the case, you don't 596 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,980 Speaker 2: get it. a lot of the things that we discovered 597 00:32:38,060 --> 00:32:41,980 Speaker 2: and we kind of dug up over the course of 598 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: making this series, it doesn't, you know, our search on 599 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,940 Speaker 2: the internet doesn't reveal it because there's just so much 600 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: that when you're on the ground there, people were like, 601 00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:54,620 Speaker 2: I mean, there was loads that we didn't actually include. 602 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:55,690 Speaker 2: There was so much. 603 00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:56,550 Speaker 1: Really? 604 00:32:56,990 --> 00:32:59,830 Speaker 2: Yeah. The Pet Sematary was built on what was once 605 00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:02,910 Speaker 2: known as one of the most dangerous roads in America. Yeah. 606 00:33:03,510 --> 00:33:05,870 Speaker 2: And locals would call it Dead Man's Curve because it 607 00:33:05,910 --> 00:33:09,530 Speaker 2: was before the full lane was put in, it was 608 00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:12,890 Speaker 2: this piece of road with a bayou off the road 609 00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:15,290 Speaker 2: and then the pet cemetery. And people would, on Saturday nights, 610 00:33:15,330 --> 00:33:18,490 Speaker 2: be drunk driving home. They'd crash off the road and 611 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:22,810 Speaker 2: they'd end up dead in the pet cemetery. So people 612 00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:26,690 Speaker 2: reported ghosts wandering the pet, those ghosts wandering the pet cemeteries. 613 00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:29,290 Speaker 2: Now that's a whole kind of like sub-story that we 614 00:33:29,310 --> 00:33:30,670 Speaker 2: just didn't have room for. 615 00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:31,650 Speaker 1: Even time, right. 616 00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:32,670 Speaker 2: Because. 617 00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:33,330 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. 618 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:35,850 Speaker 2: You just, there was, but that's the thing that, that 619 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,490 Speaker 2: it really is, is, is one of the contributors says, 620 00:33:38,550 --> 00:33:40,270 Speaker 2: it's like the more you dig, the weirder it gets. 621 00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:57,420 Speaker 1: Couple more things. So first of all, I thought that 622 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,780 Speaker 1: James Tregler was, um, so believable. And, and, you know, I, 623 00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:07,500 Speaker 1: I still feel like he didn't care at this point. 624 00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: He had, he didn't care about Brandon Nody coming for him. 625 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: He thought he was going to hell if he didn't 626 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,460 Speaker 1: tell this story. And I thought that was really powerful 627 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: because obviously Brandon was a scary dude. And I know 628 00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: that some people might say, well, James was already, you know, 629 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: serving time, but it just, for what, I don't know, me, 630 00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:30,379 Speaker 1: it really, that's sort of one of the things that 631 00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:34,450 Speaker 1: cinched it was that He didn't care anymore. He knew 632 00:34:34,469 --> 00:34:36,430 Speaker 1: that if he didn't tell his truth and didn't get, 633 00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: didn't get what the, get Dorothy, the justice that he deserved, 634 00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: he was going straight to hell. And that was, that 635 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:49,739 Speaker 1: to me was really interesting. I also, I wanted to 636 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: ask you about Brandon because at the end, did she 637 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,489 Speaker 1: get the justice that she so deserved? What did he 638 00:34:55,530 --> 00:34:56,469 Speaker 1: serve three years? 639 00:34:56,489 --> 00:35:00,740 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he, he, He got 10 years, five, 640 00:35:01,219 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 2: ended up saving five, but he'd already served, you know, 641 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,660 Speaker 2: a couple of years. Yeah, so he was out in 642 00:35:06,739 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 2: three and a half, I think. And, you know, I 643 00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 2: think one thing that was difficult with this case was 644 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,049 Speaker 2: by all accounts, he should never have been called because 645 00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:25,029 Speaker 2: of like, you know, later. And I think it's difficult 646 00:35:25,650 --> 00:35:29,460 Speaker 2: and it is kind of a bitter pill to swallow. But, 647 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 2: you know, I think if you speak to the police 648 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,820 Speaker 2: who were involved in the case, they're like, look, it 649 00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:38,390 Speaker 2: was a really difficult case. And I think, you know, 650 00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:42,330 Speaker 2: it was so far from, all the evidence had been lost. 651 00:35:43,090 --> 00:35:47,069 Speaker 2: But one thing that you're talking about Tregler is that he's, 652 00:35:48,030 --> 00:35:52,110 Speaker 2: there is this kind of biblical quality about his testimony, 653 00:35:52,170 --> 00:35:55,230 Speaker 2: that it's about the avenging angel and it's about vengeance and, 654 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 2: you know, if I don't tell what I know, I'm 655 00:35:57,739 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: going to hell. And it becomes this kind of quite, 656 00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:05,210 Speaker 2: it's all happening on this very kind of heightened scale. 657 00:36:05,410 --> 00:36:07,630 Speaker 2: And he's really felt the weight of that. And I 658 00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:10,810 Speaker 2: think he's a really, I mean, it's just a really, 659 00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:12,970 Speaker 2: he's a really, just a really interesting. 660 00:36:13,870 --> 00:36:16,310 Speaker 1: Really interesting. And the way he was described that he 661 00:36:16,330 --> 00:36:19,770 Speaker 1: looked like, what did, what did the investigators say? He 662 00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:20,950 Speaker 1: looked like a, not a police. 663 00:36:20,989 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 2: College professor. 664 00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: College professor with the glasses. Yeah, it was, it was, 665 00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:28,020 Speaker 1: He's such an interesting, everything, listen, we could go on 666 00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: and on because I think there's just, these people are 667 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: so interesting. And I, I want to know more, like, 668 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,299 Speaker 1: I want to know where are all of them now. 669 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: So like, where is, I'll just ask you this one. 670 00:36:36,420 --> 00:36:37,100 Speaker 1: Where's Brandon? 671 00:36:37,540 --> 00:36:40,990 Speaker 2: Still, still living there. So yeah. Yeah. 672 00:36:41,050 --> 00:36:43,700 Speaker 1: We're not having lunch on the pet cemetery anytime soon. 673 00:36:44,489 --> 00:36:47,430 Speaker 2: No. So he's, yeah, he's, he's, he's loving his life. 674 00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:50,930 Speaker 2: And then, you know, some of them are local people. 675 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:57,830 Speaker 2: Patricia's moved away slightly. And then, you know, Christine's in Portland. 676 00:36:58,469 --> 00:37:00,509 Speaker 2: They all kind of just loved their lives. And then 677 00:37:01,130 --> 00:37:04,989 Speaker 2: we kind of brought them all back to Louise, you know, 678 00:37:05,010 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 2: to that part of New Orleans or to Toka to 679 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:12,020 Speaker 2: follow the series. And I think it was just a 680 00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:16,220 Speaker 2: very sort of, it was really interesting to see them 681 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,509 Speaker 2: re-engage with their past as well. Because I think that's 682 00:37:18,590 --> 00:37:21,630 Speaker 2: one thing that this is, It's all about the past 683 00:37:21,810 --> 00:37:25,989 Speaker 2: and how the past will erupt in the present and 684 00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:28,590 Speaker 2: how you can keep it buried. And I think that's 685 00:37:28,810 --> 00:37:31,110 Speaker 2: really powerful as a sort of idea and it's a 686 00:37:31,110 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 2: really potent idea. And I think there's one that we, 687 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:39,460 Speaker 2: it's easy to forget that in many cases, if justice 688 00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,140 Speaker 2: is served, the truth will out. It won't stay. 689 00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:43,339 Speaker 1: Truth always comes out. 690 00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:43,700 Speaker 2: Yeah. 691 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 692 00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:46,060 Speaker 2: And as long as there are people who remember it 693 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 2: and who are kind of haunted by it, they will 694 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,299 Speaker 2: be prone to kind of to say what they know 695 00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 2: at some point. 696 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,220 Speaker 1: All of this happened in this teeny tiny little piece 697 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: of this earth and couldn't be held down. 698 00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:04,469 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that's incredible about it. 699 00:38:04,489 --> 00:38:08,530 Speaker 2: I think that it's this tiny little sort of tract 700 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:12,910 Speaker 2: of land and yet it's seen all of this trauma 701 00:38:12,969 --> 00:38:17,089 Speaker 2: and violence and bloodshed. I think that's for me one 702 00:38:17,110 --> 00:38:19,750 Speaker 2: of the great questions that we pose and hopefully an 703 00:38:19,830 --> 00:38:22,620 Speaker 2: audience will be kind of engaging with is kind of 704 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 2: like what is really going on there. 705 00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:30,180 Speaker 1: Okay. So last question, we've already sort of touched on it. 706 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,109 Speaker 1: So now we do believe in ghosts, so we don't 707 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:32,730 Speaker 1: believe in ghosts. 708 00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:36,030 Speaker 2: I believe that, that a place can hold the memory 709 00:38:36,070 --> 00:38:37,750 Speaker 2: of things that have happened there and the people that 710 00:38:37,770 --> 00:38:40,790 Speaker 2: have died violently there. And I think how you experience 711 00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:42,930 Speaker 2: that is kind of up for grabs, but I definitely 712 00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:47,330 Speaker 2: think that places can hold memory and, and the extent 713 00:38:47,350 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 2: to which, um, someone in the series says, you know, 714 00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: I think the land holds the trauma, but I think 715 00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:54,620 Speaker 2: the people hold the trauma. And I think that for 716 00:38:54,660 --> 00:38:57,150 Speaker 2: me is a kind of really good up some, but 717 00:38:57,170 --> 00:39:00,170 Speaker 2: I do, I do think that it's the law. I mean, 718 00:39:00,210 --> 00:39:02,310 Speaker 2: the level of number of coincidences that it's just, it 719 00:39:02,510 --> 00:39:06,750 Speaker 2: seems kind of, I think you'd be, you've got any 720 00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:09,750 Speaker 2: rational explanation has to make room for the paranormal. That's 721 00:39:09,790 --> 00:39:10,230 Speaker 2: what I think. 722 00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree. And I didn't think that I would. 723 00:39:14,910 --> 00:39:15,140 Speaker 2: Yeah. 724 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: So good job. Because I really, I always was like, 725 00:39:19,219 --> 00:39:21,570 Speaker 1: To my husband, I was stopping with the ghosts. Yeah. 726 00:39:21,570 --> 00:39:24,730 Speaker 3: I'm really, you know, I'm so fascinated that you're saying 727 00:39:24,730 --> 00:39:27,390 Speaker 3: all of this because it's really, it's music to my 728 00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:30,469 Speaker 3: ears because I think that that it's got that impact 729 00:39:30,690 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 3: that people are actually at a personal level wrestling with 730 00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:36,010 Speaker 3: what they believe. 731 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,380 Speaker 2: And that was always our intention when we were making 732 00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 2: it was to make something that forced you to question 733 00:39:41,739 --> 00:39:43,980 Speaker 2: the things that you take for granted about how you 734 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,620 Speaker 2: see the world, how you think about the world. And 735 00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:50,190 Speaker 2: actually it, I'm glad that we've kind of in some 736 00:39:50,250 --> 00:39:51,969 Speaker 2: small way done that. 737 00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you did that. From this viewer's perspective, you 738 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: definitely made me question a lot of things. And I 739 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: agree with you. I think those are the best types 740 00:40:00,660 --> 00:40:04,470 Speaker 1: of films. So congratulations to you, my friend. It's going 741 00:40:04,489 --> 00:40:04,739 Speaker 1: to be huge. 742 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:05,260 Speaker 2: Thank you. 743 00:40:05,530 --> 00:40:07,109 Speaker 1: It's going to be a huge hit. I'm very happy 744 00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: for you. 745 00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:09,350 Speaker 2: I hope it is. I mean, yeah, I hope so. 746 00:40:09,570 --> 00:40:11,290 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to us. Cheers. 747 00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:11,810 Speaker 2: Cheers.