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Speaker 1: Amy Chan is the founder of renew Breakup boot Camp,

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Speaker 1: a retreat that takes a scientific and spiritual approach to

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Speaker 1: the healing heart. She is also the editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of hart Hackers Club. Amy has also been referred to

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Speaker 1: you know, I love this one as a relationship expert

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Speaker 1: whose work is like that of a scientific Carrie Bradshaw.

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Speaker 1: She's been featured on Good Morning America, Vogue, Glamour Nightline,

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Speaker 1: in the front page of The New York Times. Her book,

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Speaker 1: Breakup boot Camp, The Science of Rewiring Your Heart was

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Speaker 1: published by HarperCollins and an instant Amazon bestseller. She's also

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Speaker 1: just one of my favorite people and has joined us

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Speaker 1: on the podcast many times before. Amy, Hi, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here.

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Speaker 2: Ry, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Welcome our topic this month. I told you was shedding,

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Speaker 1: and so we got a listener email that I thought, Huh,

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Speaker 1: is this an interesting question to ask a relationship expert

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Speaker 1: about platonic male female relationships once you get involved into

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Speaker 1: a romantic relationship, Like, is that something that we should

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Speaker 1: be shedding? Chip? Do you want to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: read the email for us?

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Speaker 3: Sure? It reads I dated a man for a while

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Speaker 3: and he continually mentioned his female best friend straight out

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Speaker 3: of the gate. He said that they took a trip

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Speaker 3: together for his thirtieth birthday years back. Obviously a very

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Speaker 3: long time female friend. The top line issue he never

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Speaker 3: introduced us. There were three instances where he chose her

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Speaker 3: over me and quote unquote forgot about me. In one

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Speaker 3: of the situations, someone even assumed she was his girlfriend,

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Speaker 3: which made me wonder. Early on in our relationship, he

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Speaker 3: spent the night at her house when she was not

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Speaker 3: there because he rents his house as an airbnb and

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Speaker 3: it overlapped. I was not ready for him to stay

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Speaker 3: with me overnight. He reassured me that she wasn't there

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Speaker 3: when he spent the night. He told me that part

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Speaker 3: of the reason he moved to Nashville was because of her.

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Speaker 3: They were the same age, she is highly successful. At

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Speaker 3: one point, I kind of felt like we could be

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Speaker 3: friends and get along as we seemed interested in similar things.

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Speaker 3: Did she even know he was dating someone while she

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Speaker 3: was hanging out with him. That's hard for me to

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Speaker 3: comprehend because if she did, I personally wouldn't be spending

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Speaker 3: that kind of time with someone out of pure respect.

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Speaker 3: I have also never been a jealous person and took

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Speaker 3: the upside of things, but this one has me a

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Speaker 3: bit rocked. A month after we stopped talking, I found

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Speaker 3: out he took her along on one of his work trips,

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Speaker 3: took excursions with her in advance, basically doing things with

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Speaker 3: her that I wanted to do, things I suggested that

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Speaker 3: we do. He did this with a friend. My question is,

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Speaker 3: do you think it's appropriate to heavily maintain slash spend

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Speaker 3: time with male slash female friends or friends of the

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Speaker 3: opposite sex when you're dating to build a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Well, Amy, I will just go ahead and affair write

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's a sticky one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm going to start with a general response

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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to zoom into her specific situation.

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Speaker 2: Generally speaking, it is totally okay to have friends of

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Speaker 2: the opp sex, and in fact, it is healthy. Having

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Speaker 2: friends of the opposite sex can give you perspective, and

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Speaker 2: it's not like, ooh, you know, once you pass your teens,

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Speaker 2: if you're like friends with someone in the opposite sex

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Speaker 2: and it has to be sexual, it's not. I'll go

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Speaker 2: back into the zoomed out version after I talk about

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Speaker 2: the situation. In this specific situation, we have what on

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Speaker 2: on our hands, something called a third and in any relationship,

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Speaker 2: a third can be a controlling mother in law, it

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Speaker 2: could be this best friend that kind of crosses limits.

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Speaker 2: A third is something or someone that threatens the bond

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Speaker 2: and partnership between the two people who are in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: There typically is a period of time where there's a transition.

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Speaker 2: So when two people get together, maybe they do have

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Speaker 2: that best friend that used to do everything together, and

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Speaker 2: then there's like a gradual kind of shifting and limits

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Speaker 2: are put. Not that you abandon the friendship, but that

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Speaker 2: friendship looks a little bit different, and you want to,

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Speaker 2: as a partner, make sure that your partner knows that

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Speaker 2: they are the priority, that the relationship is the priority,

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Speaker 2: and if they're uncomfortable, then you have conversations about that

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Speaker 2: and things are renegotiated. You can't live your bachelor life

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Speaker 2: like you did or your bachelorette life like you did

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Speaker 2: when you are creating a partnership with someone. So in

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Speaker 2: this case, it seems like the third was this best

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Speaker 2: friend and maybe the intention was innocent, but the reality

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Speaker 2: is it was impacting the person who was in the relationship,

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Speaker 2: the girlfriend, and impacting them in a negative way, and

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Speaker 2: it seemed like this boyfriend didn't really care. And he's like, well,

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Speaker 2: I used to do it like this. I used to

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Speaker 2: have these trips, I used to do the sleepovers. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to just keep doing the thing that I want

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Speaker 2: to do. And unfortunately that shows that this person is

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Speaker 2: isn't that we oriented And it's really like, well what

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Speaker 2: feels good for me, what's comfortable for me? And if

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Speaker 2: you want a partnership, you need to build that muscle

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Speaker 2: and that skill to think for we to think as

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Speaker 2: a team. And this relationship, whether it was this best

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Speaker 2: friend being an issue or it's later on down the road,

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Speaker 2: maybe they have a family, there's gonna be another thing

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Speaker 2: where it shows he's going to choose being selfish and

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Speaker 2: what he wants to do and she's just shit out

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Speaker 2: of luck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can cut from this one. It's our edge.

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Speaker 1: I love it already. I love that you're doing the

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Speaker 1: version of it where it's just about more about being

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Speaker 1: selfish versus the laser focus of this specific relationship, because

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Speaker 1: it just looks to me the same, like it's not

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Speaker 1: thinking as the team. And so my other question would

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Speaker 1: be at what point, because she did mention this was

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Speaker 1: like beginning stages. You know, this seems like maybe they

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Speaker 1: didn't date that long. I'm not even sure if they're

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Speaker 1: still together. But at what point point should we start

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Speaker 1: kind of analyzing our life and looking at our relationships

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Speaker 1: outside of our romantic relationship that we just began. Did

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Speaker 1: I word that in a way that makes sense? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So, like, is there a time point in the relationship

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Speaker 2: where it's like, okay, like let's kind of do an

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Speaker 2: inventory of all the threats of the relationship.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean because at the beginning, you don't know

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Speaker 1: if you're going to stay with someone, right, Like, if

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Speaker 1: you just go on a couple dates with someone, it's

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Speaker 1: not like you should uproot your entire life or the

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Speaker 1: way you do things yet for sure?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think there's a point in time where

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Speaker 2: it's no longer just dating, and it's two people who've

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Speaker 2: made a conscious decision of we're going to choose to

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Speaker 2: level up and deepen the investment in this commitment and

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Speaker 2: we are walking on a path of building a partnership.

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Speaker 2: When you make that decision, then things do start to change.

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Speaker 2: You have to start thinking about, Okay, my apartment, we

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Speaker 2: want to lift together are they just going to move

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Speaker 2: into my you know, single bachelor place with all my

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Speaker 2: stuff here, or are we gonna think we like, there's

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Speaker 2: all these decisions that you have to start to make

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Speaker 2: that are different from when you were just purely a

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Speaker 2: single person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like she was maybe picking up on

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Speaker 1: the instinct that he wasn't operating as a partnership at all.

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Speaker 3: It's not that clear how long the relationship was. She

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Speaker 3: just said I dated for a while, So I wonder

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Speaker 3: if she the writer was further along mentally than he

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Speaker 3: was in the relationship and he you know, like, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it seems like there was a decent amount of time,

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Speaker 3: but like this could have been two months, you know. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I can also understand from the person who wrote

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Speaker 3: this her perspective of like not wanting to seem like

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Speaker 3: a bitch to the best friend, because then she's gonna

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Speaker 3: be in his ear about like why are you dating

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Speaker 3: this girl? She doesn't seem like anyone that you should

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Speaker 3: be with, Like, she doesn't seem to trust our relationship.

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Speaker 3: So it's a really touchy sort of thing to walk.

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Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, that's a really good point ship

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Speaker 2: And ultimately, in this case, it is up to the

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Speaker 2: boyfriend to create those limits and boundaries. It's not hers

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Speaker 2: when there's a third right and now zooming out, If

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Speaker 2: you have a mother that's constantly controlling, like looking into

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Speaker 2: your life and they're coming into your relationship, it's not

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Speaker 2: the wife's responsibility to then have a conversation with her

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Speaker 2: mother in law. She talks to her husband, the husband's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take care of this, and the husband

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Speaker 2: goes and does his thing to make sure that he's

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Speaker 2: protecting the relationship bubble.

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Speaker 1: So ultimately, men and women it's totally fine to be

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Speaker 1: friends and they can be like, it's not like you're

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Speaker 1: attracted to every man or woman in this world.

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Speaker 2: And let's be realistic here. You can be friends with

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Speaker 2: some of the opposite sex and maybe they do think

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Speaker 2: you're really pretty. There's gonna be people who are going

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Speaker 2: to be attracted to you. There's going to be people

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Speaker 2: that you're going to look at you, Oh, you're attractive.

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Speaker 2: But it's ultimately up to you as a person in

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Speaker 2: a relationship that is committed that if you've chosen loyalty

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Speaker 2: and monogamy, that you stay in integrity with that and

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Speaker 2: you can't control all the factors that are going to

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Speaker 2: be happening in the world. And if this person looks

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Speaker 2: at you this way and like someone compliments you, you

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Speaker 2: can't control all of that, right, Like for me personally,

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends male female, and I'm sure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: some of them probably think I'm hot maybe, but I

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Speaker 2: would single, they would date me. It's not my problem.

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Speaker 2: Like I know my boundaries, I know where I'm going.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to date them, like I'm committed to

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Speaker 2: my partnership. So it's not about like, ooh, let's pluck

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Speaker 2: out anyone who thinks Amy's pretty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I also, like in my relationship with my boyfriend,

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Speaker 3: we you know, it's like if we see someone we

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Speaker 3: think is hot, like we started very early allowing the

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Speaker 3: other person to say it. In my opinion, there's no

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Speaker 3: reason why my opinion of what someone looks like should change.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I want to sleep with them, but

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Speaker 3: I can note if a hot person walks by, just

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Speaker 3: like I can note that a beautiful woman walks by

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Speaker 3: and I don't want to sleep with her, you know, Like,

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Speaker 3: so I you know, I think it's it is really

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Speaker 3: about like setting the boundaries early on, because if it's

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Speaker 3: an unspoken thing and you don't know, and then suddenly

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Speaker 3: you start doing something out of the blue that makes

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Speaker 3: somebody really uncomfortable, it might kind of be too late,

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Speaker 3: Like you might like have lost that battle, and could

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Speaker 3: you know, cause a much worse fight, I would think. So,

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Speaker 3: I think it's like for boundaries like this, they need

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Speaker 3: to be discussed pretty early on. And this seemed like

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Speaker 3: it was an obvious thing right out of the get go,

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Speaker 3: you know, Like, so maybe maybe the writer I don't

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Speaker 3: know what her name is, but maybe she just took

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Speaker 3: too long to like address it and it became something

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Speaker 3: that like was so much bigger than it needed to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it is important that, especially in

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Speaker 2: the beginning stages of building, there has to be a

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Speaker 2: sense of safety. Yeah, And so some people might have

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Speaker 2: an issue with the best friend. Some people might not.

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Speaker 2: I know again, personally, when I just started dating my partner,

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Speaker 2: my boyfriend went on a meditation retreat with his best

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Speaker 2: friend who's a girl, and I was like, amazing, this

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Speaker 2: is awesomeh have a fun time. Like I just didn't

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Speaker 2: like if I was really if there was something about

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Speaker 2: the relationship or us that I was a little bit

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Speaker 2: insecure about. Maybe I wouldn't have been so open minded

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Speaker 2: about it, and I think, like, yeah, it is. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's not rational, right, Like you might be like, what,

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Speaker 2: I've known this person, they're like a sibling to me,

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Speaker 2: and your new partner feels a little bit weird. And again,

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Speaker 2: if you want to invest in the relationship, then you

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Speaker 2: want to then focus like, Okay, what can I do

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Speaker 2: to create a sense of safety that is reasonable when

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Speaker 2: a foundation is built and you feel connected and two

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Speaker 2: people feel safe. A lot of these things are just

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Speaker 2: symptomatic of something else.

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Speaker 1: It's so true. I totally agree. The guy that I'm

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Speaker 1: dating currently, his best friend is a girl, and of

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Speaker 1: all people, tip, I think you would be like oof

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Speaker 1: because I have typically in the past had a hard

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Speaker 1: time just because of being cheated on in the past

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Speaker 1: and things like that. This relationship has never once bothered me,

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Speaker 1: but it's because of the way he's handled it. And

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Speaker 1: like I've met her, I know the reader the writer

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Speaker 1: mentioned that she never was introduced, and sometimes it just

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Speaker 1: takes that one simple thing and it removes all the questions.

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Speaker 1: You feel totally comfortable because you feel included, And then

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Speaker 1: there's no guessing. So let's talk about the boundaries. I

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Speaker 1: know we've mentioned that word a couple times. What are

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Speaker 1: some good boundaries that people can set if they do

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Speaker 1: find themselves in a situation like this where their partner

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Speaker 1: is best friends or friends with someone from the opposite sex.

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Speaker 2: So are you asking the case of like this boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: what he could have done?

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe let's do both. What are some requests that

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Speaker 1: maybe she could make to ask for safety? You know,

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Speaker 1: like she obviously didn't feel safe, so was there something

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Speaker 1: she had asked from him? And then let's talk about

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Speaker 1: maybe from a boyfriend's perspective, what are some boundaries that

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Speaker 1: if you are the one in the situation where you

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Speaker 1: have the friend of the opposite sex, that maybe you

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Speaker 1: could be aware of or kind of keep on your radar, etc.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So if I was a girl, this is

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Speaker 2: what I would have said to my boyfriend. I'd be like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I know you have this really incredible friendship and I really,

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Speaker 2: you know, want to respect that and I really want

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Speaker 2: to like continue building our relationship. I would love to

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Speaker 2: meet her. I that would make me feel really comfortable.

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Speaker 2: And I know that you you know, have a history

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Speaker 2: of like doing these things together and I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to encroach on your time. This is what would make

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Speaker 2: me feel really comfortable meeting her maybe once in a

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Speaker 2: while coming along to a thing. Then you kind of

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Speaker 2: state your preferences. You're not making a demand, You're not

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Speaker 2: being like, well, I need to go to that thing then,

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Speaker 2: because when you make a demand, what happens is automatically

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Speaker 2: people have two reactions. They are either going to rebel

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Speaker 2: against you and be like fuck you, or they're going

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Speaker 2: to comply and then they're going to resent you. So

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Speaker 2: they have to ultimately choose. You can only stay a preference.

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Speaker 2: That's what I would say. I would let them know

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Speaker 2: how to make it comfortable.

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Speaker 1: For me, okay. And then if you're the boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: your partner expresses to you certain things that you would

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Speaker 1: you know, the safety pieces or whatever, then what do

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Speaker 1: you need to be alert or aware of within your

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Speaker 1: relationship with the friend?

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Speaker 2: So I think at that point in this situation, if

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Speaker 2: you're the guy, you have to like, look at what

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Speaker 2: is my partner asking? Okay, and is it reasonable? Like

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Speaker 2: if you were in their position, like like are they

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Speaker 2: totally being crazy? Because I think sometimes we get defense

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Speaker 2: and we're like, oh, you're being crazy being sensitive, but

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Speaker 2: like really are they?

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Speaker 3: Am?

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Speaker 2: I doing everything that I possibly can to create a

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Speaker 2: safe container for my partner and like be really honest

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Speaker 2: with you yourself, and if you don't know, I would

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Speaker 2: really get a second opinion, probably from a professional expert,

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Speaker 2: not someone who's just going to agree with you. That

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Speaker 2: will help you. And then when you go to your

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Speaker 2: best friend or whatnot, I wouldn't blame it on your like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know what, my girlfriend doesn't really like us hanging out.

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Speaker 2: Just be like, you know, I know, we had like

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Speaker 2: that trip scheduled together, and like I'm dating this person.

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Speaker 2: It's going really well, and I think just so I

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Speaker 2: could like really make her feel comfortable and also like

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Speaker 2: be able to have some time with her, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: pause on the trip and like why don't we instead,

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Speaker 2: like just do a dinner together. Like you're going to

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Speaker 2: also like into create your best friend and your new friend.

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Speaker 2: And look, in this situation, this guy's best friend was

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Speaker 2: getting all of the emotional connection without being in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Of course she's gonna make it.

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Speaker 2: I'm obviously, yeah, and she probably is like whether you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure she's a good person, but probably deep down

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Speaker 2: she's probably protective of this relationship that was really nourishing

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Speaker 2: for her. She probably doesn't want to let it go either.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say, because there's that thing

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Speaker 1: where if you're in the relationship, you have this friendship

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Speaker 1: with this person of the opposite sex, what needs can

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Speaker 1: you get met ultimately that you wouldn't then have to

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Speaker 1: turn to your partner, you know, Like if you start

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Speaker 1: talking to your friend about the issues you and your

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Speaker 1: partner are having, that's bad for the relationship, right, And

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Speaker 1: so it's like where where do you draw the line? Though,

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Speaker 1: especially if it's your like best friend, your confidant that

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Speaker 1: you usually go to. Something about it being the opposite

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Speaker 1: sex to me always seems to kind of ping me

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Speaker 1: a little more of like, oh, but they could be

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Speaker 1: going and getting their emotional needs met there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you. I think it's a valid fear, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we want to be able to de risk as much

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Speaker 2: as possible so that we don't get hurt or we

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Speaker 2: don't get betrayed. But ultimately, when you choose someone, you know,

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Speaker 2: the hope is you are going to be in integrity

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Speaker 2: and the partner you've chosen is also going to be

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Speaker 2: an integrity. Yeah, and there's only so much we can

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Speaker 2: do to control them.

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Speaker 3: What's interesting, too, is like in the paradigm that we're

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Speaker 3: talking about now about opposite sex, Like if you think

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Speaker 3: about it, gay and lesbian relationships, like most gays they're

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Speaker 3: best friends or men, right, and most lesbians best friends

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Speaker 3: are women. So it's like you're kind of dealing with

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Speaker 3: it all the time. Yeah, And so I think it is.

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Speaker 3: I think Amy brings up the best point is like

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Speaker 3: you just have to like have faith in like the

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Speaker 3: integrity of the person that you're choosing to be with.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in the straight scenario, Like my concern would

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Speaker 3: be that, like say I'm the man and I'm talking

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Speaker 3: to my female best friend about issues in my relationship

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Speaker 3: to get like a woman's perspective, Like I wonder, like

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Speaker 3: the if the chance of like because you're being vulnerable

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Speaker 3: and you're talking about things that are not going well

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Speaker 3: in your relationship, if it opens up a portal in

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Speaker 3: your friendship that wasn't really there. That's when I met

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Speaker 3: is like something that happened that like wasn't there before.

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Speaker 3: Then you start having real problems because the emotional connection changes.

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Speaker 3: It's not just I love you, you're my best friend,

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Speaker 3: it's like, wait a minute, I haven't seen this vulnerable

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Speaker 3: side of you, and I'm falling in love with you,

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Speaker 3: and maybe that I think that could be a real concern.

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Speaker 3: But I also think that probably happens in the game

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Speaker 3: the gay on the gay side of things as well.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think ultimately there are things that are sacred.

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Speaker 2: And if you find you're constantly going to your friend,

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Speaker 2: whether they're same sex, opposite sex, whatever, and you're you're

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Speaker 2: kind of spilling the secrets and the deepest intimacies of

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Speaker 2: your relationship, there's something that's unhealthy there. So either you know,

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Speaker 2: get professional help, or take a step back and look

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Speaker 2: at why you're going to your friend and revealing all

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Speaker 2: this stuff that is actually meant to be you having

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Speaker 2: a conversation with your partner to deal with it. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: we don't deal with our own partner because we're just

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Speaker 2: talking to someone else about it, right, well.

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Speaker 1: Right, And the stakes are higher when you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: your partner. There's emotions, there's the relationship couldn't the relationship

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Speaker 1: could be on the line with those conversations like hard

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Speaker 1: conversations and stakes are just so much higher in a

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Speaker 1: romantic situation then if you're just venting to a friend,

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Speaker 1: right yeah. Yeah. So if this person was a client

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Speaker 1: of yours and came to you and said exactly what

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Speaker 1: she said in the email to you, are there any

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Speaker 1: major red flags that you would just say, well, we

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Speaker 1: should take note of this? Is it just to go

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Speaker 1: back to she obviously didn't feel safe. As the bigger picture.

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Speaker 2: I would have first worked with her to do whatever

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Speaker 2: she could to communicate and know that she's kind of

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Speaker 2: done her part, okay. And if she communicated and he

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Speaker 2: was like I don't care, then yeah, like that's right now,

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Speaker 2: Like this person is not a team player with you,

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Speaker 2: and so yes, get out. But if she kind of

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Speaker 2: was like, oh well I kind of don't want to

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Speaker 2: say anything and maybe he should just know. I would

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Speaker 2: then focus on, well, why do you not communicate your

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Speaker 2: needs or you push them down? What's there? What's the

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Speaker 2: root of that? And we would work on that versus

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Speaker 2: before we work on him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I love these points well. As I mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: Amy is the founder of the Breakup boot Camp, which

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Speaker 1: I have attended. It was very helpful in my life.

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Speaker 1: But you've also now started a podcast, so it's much

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Speaker 1: more accessible to people to learn about the rules of

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Speaker 1: the breakup boot Camp. I guess if you will, do

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Speaker 1: you want to tell us what we can find on

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Speaker 1: the podcast?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's seven episodes. Each episode is on a

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Speaker 2: different stage of the healing process because you need different

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00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,199
Speaker 2: strategies depending on where you're at. So what you're going

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00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 2: to do in the shock stage, it's very different than

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Speaker 2: when you're in the denial stage. And it really whether

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Speaker 2: you're in a breakup or you're not. It just really

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Speaker 2: goes into the science and psychology of relationship patterns. Why

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Speaker 2: do we choose the people we do? Why do we

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Speaker 2: act codependent? Why don't we stay at our boundaries? Why

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Speaker 2: do we go for the unavailable person? We so often

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Speaker 2: think it's because of our ex. It's our ex's fault.

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Speaker 2: They're like this, But like, it's never just about the X.

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Speaker 2: It's recycled paid And if we don't figure out our patterns,

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Speaker 2: they don't magically disappear through time. They follow you from

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Speaker 2: relationship to relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just about finding the new relationship and

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Speaker 1: then you're fixed. I tried that one. Guys, just let

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Speaker 1: me just tell you it's not about that. Go check

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Speaker 1: out that podcast. I'll put the link in the description

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Speaker 1: of this podcast. Amywhere else can people find you?

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Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram at miss amy Chan.

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Speaker 2: On my website is whenew breakupbootcamp dot.

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Speaker 1: Com amazing, and again I'll put all of that in

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Speaker 1: the description of this podcast. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being here, and it's always so such a pleasure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so good to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nice to me you too.

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Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening.