1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Last week, our story in Guyana took us straight into 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: an issue that sits at the heart of the global 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: climate debate, the need to address poverty while also avoiding 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: the worst impacts of climate change. The fossil fuel industry 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: often positions these two aims as mutually exclusive. Can't solve 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: poverty without fossil fuels, but the climate movement also does this, 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: with some folks agreeing with oil companies that the only 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: way to address global poverty is to continue developing fossil 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: fuels in the global South for the foreseeable future, and 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: others arguing that there can be no further fossil fuel expansion, 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: but failing to offer any real solutions to poverty. As 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: with all complicated issues, the answer is equally complex. It 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: requires nuance and a whole lot of context, and it 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: felt important to bring that in at this point in 15 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: our story. So this week I asked doctor Narasimha Rau 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: from Yale University to join me. Doctor raw studies energy 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: systems and their relationship to human well being and human development, 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: and you lead something called the Decent Living Energy Project. 19 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: That project focuses entirely on this big question, how do 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: we solve poverty and climate change at the same time. 21 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Dr Rao is going to walk us through it right 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: after this quick break. 23 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: So my name is Narsim Harau. I'm an associate Professor 24 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: of Energy Systems at the Year School of the Environment. 25 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: I am an INTRODUCIP and researcher with the background in 26 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: electrical engineering and social sciences as well, and over the 27 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: course of my career, I've been interested in understanding the 28 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: relationship between energy systems, especially in the context of climate 29 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: change and energy transitions, and their relationship to human well 30 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: being and human development more broadly. 31 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: And can I have you describe the Decent Living Energy 32 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: Project and define what this term decent Living energy means. 33 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: Sure? So this project addresses two very important global challenges. 34 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: The first of them is persistent poverty eradication and the 35 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: second is climate mitigation. And these are both in the 36 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: global South, extremely important pressing priorities. We understand already that 37 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: climate change is a threat multiplier for people. It exacerbates 38 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: it's poverty poor people face that is proportionate effect off 39 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: climate impacts. They are more vulnerable to extreme events, to 40 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: extreme heat. So that is well understood. But what is 41 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: perhaps less well understood is the impact of poverty eradication 42 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: in terms of resource needs on emissions and climate change. 43 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: That is, bringing people out of poverty all around the 44 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: world going to have such a significant rise in emissions 45 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: that it really complicates our ability to mitigate the climate problem. 46 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: And that's the question that my research has tried to answer. 47 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: It has been of interest for a long time, but 48 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: it has not really been tackled in a manner that 49 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: allows you to really answer the question. So let me 50 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: explain why. The first question is what is poverty in 51 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: the first place. Now, our understanding of poverty, in largely 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: in development policy internationally, is based on income thresholds per 53 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: day that people earn around the world, and in global 54 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 2: international policy we use the World banks originally dollars per 55 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: day that increase with inflation to dollar ninety per day. 56 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: But it's seen, first of all as an acute poverty threshold, 57 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: and there are many issues with this, both in terms 58 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 2: of its absolute value as well as the notion of 59 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 2: an income threshold for poverty. First of all, it's hard 60 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: to translate such an absolute income threshold to the actual 61 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 2: lives of people. What does it mean in terms of 62 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: the services they receive and the actual well being For 63 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: many reasons. Price differences for people in poverty are large 64 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: extent of services that are received non monetarily through social 65 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: transfers or public services. It's very difficult to characterize people's 66 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: living standards with this threshold. Second, of all, different thresholds 67 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: are used in countries, so national poverty lines use different 68 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: threas for different reasons. So some consider absolute conditions of people, 69 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: usually food expenditure and some additional aspects, but also relational poverty. 70 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 2: So richer countries have higher income poverty lines, and so 71 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: it's not just translating to an absolute level of living 72 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: standards so well being. So for this reason, the first 73 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: question in this project was really fundamental, How should we 74 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: define the material basis of poverty In the first place, 75 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: we don't have anything that we can hang our hat 76 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: on it directly. And I say material in particular because 77 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: that's what we're concerned about with regards to environmental impact. 78 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: Of course, well being has psychological dimensions, social dimensions, and 79 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: what we want this project wanted to do was to 80 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: translate those to material requirements so that it would then 81 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: allow us to estimate energy and material needs and translate 82 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: that to climate impacts. So basically, decent living standards are 83 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: the minimum inviolable material requirements that we consider necessary for 84 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: people to pursue a good life, no matter what else 85 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: they may want in their lives. So can we define 86 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: that minimum threshold, and then decent living energy is then 87 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: the energy requirements to provide everybody with these basic living standards. 88 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about something that's come 89 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: up a lot in We're in the middle of doing 90 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: a long story on oil drilling in Guyana, and one 91 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: of the things that we hear a lot is well, 92 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: we need fossil fuels to develop, and fossil fuels are 93 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: sort of the answer to solving poverty. And I'm just 94 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: wondering what you've seen in your research along those lines 95 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: where that does or doesn't hold up. 96 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: So what people need our services and maybe products, access 97 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 2: to basic sanitation and water and food and housing and 98 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: these things. That's what they need. What is an absolutely 99 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: unavoidable instrumental need that arises from those goods and services 100 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: is energy. Because we're talking about the transformation of materials 101 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: of natural resources into services that people need or goods, 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: and that absolutely requires energy. So the type of energy 103 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: that we use in order to create these services is 104 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: a completely separate matter. We may only speak about the 105 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: energy demand required to eradicate poverty now, in terms of 106 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: what types of energy we use to deliver these services 107 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: is a matter of fuel endowments that country have and 108 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: the costs of technologies and other types of energy sources, 109 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: and then that translates to a matter of global climate justice. 110 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: So I think there's a lot of substance and a 111 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: lot of validity to saying that poor countries right now 112 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: need fossil fuels to eradicate poverty. It's important to unpack 113 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: that and understand that what they really need our energy services. 114 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: But in the current global context, where clean energy is 115 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: not affordable at a large scale in certain countries and 116 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: there is an immediate urgency to build infrastructure and provide 117 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: these services to people, it is only expected that policy 118 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: makers in the global South will build infrastructure using what 119 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: is competitive in those countries right now, and that tends 120 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: to be fossil fuels currently gas, and so that's what 121 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: we're seeing. Another element to this is countries, of course 122 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: follow their own development priorities first, and countries that have resources, 123 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: fossil resources they want to extract them for microeconomic reasons 124 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 2: for raising revenues for economic development broadly. Now, that is 125 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: a slightly separate issue because those revenues that they earn, 126 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: it's questionable to what extent those are going to eradicate poverty, 127 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: but it certainly may be an important revenue source for 128 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: these countries to invest in those resources unless alternatives are 129 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: made available to them. 130 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: What are you seeing in terms of how those decisions 131 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: get made. This is like a squishy question, but I'm 132 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: curious about something that has come up a lot in 133 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: the reporting that we've been doing recently. Is sort of Okay, well, 134 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: the world is saying we need to reduce emissions and 135 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: get off of fossil fuels and all of these things. 136 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: But in many countries that have fossil resources, they are 137 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: both seen as one of the few economic drivers and 138 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: also one of the few sort of reliable energy sources. 139 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: And there's not really anything immediately presenting itself as an alternative, 140 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: either in terms of financing or funding for alternative energy 141 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: or even the technology scale of alternative energy resources. How 142 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: are countries thinking about this and is there a sense 143 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: that the kind of short term choices are being made 144 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: with any kind of thinking about the long term climate impacts, 145 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: or is it sort of everyone is just making the 146 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: decision that's best for the next ten years and kind 147 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: of leaving it to the next batch of people to 148 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: figure out the rest. 149 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: So you first need to understand that the energy transition 150 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 2: involves a very deep transformation of all our economic activities. 151 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: This is not just a matter of building solar panels 152 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: instead of coal power plants. It's a lot more than that. 153 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: It's a diverse range of technologies that will require complete 154 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: transformation of economies. So, given that it will require significant 155 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: capital investments on the order of one hundreds of billions 156 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 2: of dollars globally, trillions of dollars that clearly these countries 157 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: do not have and are not made available today. Now 158 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: in this portfolio of technologies, some elements of them are 159 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: getting increasingly competitive cost competitive with existing technologies. So the 160 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 2: decarbonization of the electricity sector using solar and wind technologies 161 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: up to a point is become cost competitive with coal 162 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: and to some extent with gas as well in certain circumstances. However, 163 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: the complete transformation and decarbonization of the electricity system will 164 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: involve significantly more renewables. The retirement of existing capacity in 165 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: fossil fuel plants, and significant amounts of storage capacity to 166 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: balance the intermittency of the renewables, and a lot of 167 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: technologies and how you run the grid to manage this 168 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: new kind of portfolio of resources. Now that deeper level 169 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: of reliance on renewables, even just for electricity production is 170 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: not cost competitive today, and then there are a whole 171 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: bunch of technologies that you need for industry as well. 172 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: If you think about fertilizer for food production, if you 173 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: think about cement and steel production, and industrial heat production 174 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: which requires hydrogen, these are completely not even commercialized in 175 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: other countries, let alone in poor countries. So the need 176 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: for international cooperation for technology transfer and some sort of 177 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: consideration of fair efforts is essential for deeper transformations in 178 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: these per economies. Having said that, there is some potential 179 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 2: for them to scale up renewables beyond what they're currently 180 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: doing potentially, but still there's an upfront capital requirement. So 181 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: let me speak about finance for a second. If you 182 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: look at private finance today, the cost of capitals are 183 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: exactly inversely related to the average income of countries, that is, 184 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: the poorest countries in subsidn Africa have the highest costs 185 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 2: of capital seen by a private finance because they see 186 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: high risk in investing in these economies. But this is 187 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: a problem also of how risk is assessed and measured. So, 188 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: for example, we think about credit risk. People need to 189 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 2: have debt to get new debt, and that's circular and 190 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: maybe inappropriate for people who have never been part of 191 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: the former economy. But they may yet have a record, 192 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 2: a perfect record of paying bills to the extent they 193 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: receive existing services. So the existing market for finance on 194 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 2: its own is going to be even more challenging because 195 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: of the fact that the poorest countries have the highest 196 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: demanding cost of capital. So there's going to have to 197 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: be some kind of government intervention to underwrite private finance 198 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: if at all, or some sort of broadest scheme for 199 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: government cooperation. So that's with regards to the transformation. Now 200 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: are developing countries thinking only short term not thinking long term? 201 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: For the most part, we have to understand that poor 202 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: countries have development priorities that are long standing. And over 203 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: the last few decades, generally countries started out by saying 204 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: that the climate is a northern problem. It's a problem 205 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: created by the West and has to be dealt with 206 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: by them. But over time, for various reasons, it's been 207 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: understood that all countries have to be part of the 208 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: energy transition, and also that there are several opportunities for 209 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: efficiently growing in ways that will be beneficial to even 210 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: low income countries, for example by reducing air pollution and 211 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: other health benefits of transition to clean energy. So there 212 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,359 Speaker 2: has been a push towards trying to integrate and mainstream 213 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: climate conditions and climate priorities into development priorities. But it's 214 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: really important to understand that we have to embed climate 215 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: considerations within the existing set of priorities developing countries have, 216 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: rather than to think about it as let's see how 217 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: we can introduce climate policy and think about other benefits 218 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: for development. So that mainstreaming of climate into development policy, 219 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: I think is happening increasingly, and so yes, poor countries 220 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: are mostly thinking about near term priorities, but there has 221 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: been significant progress and at least formally thinking about climate 222 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: explicitly including them in plans for the future, but very 223 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,239 Speaker 2: often conditional on support from the international community. 224 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: One of the people that we spoke with in Diana 225 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: was saying you know that she feels like the global 226 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: north is doing with fossil fuels sort of what it 227 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: did with tobacco and cars, which is dump the stuff 228 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: they don't want on the global's mouth, and then that 229 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: puts the global stuff that much further behind on energy transition. 230 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: And I'm curious just what you think about that. 231 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: I do think there's a couple of concerns with regards 232 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: to inequality and the kind of fragmentation of the global 233 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: energy system in a couple of ways. One is that 234 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: you have certain countries, wealthier countries investing in renewables but 235 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: not supporting the investment in renewables in poorer countries, and 236 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: then they would go ahead and invest in fossils, and 237 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: so you'd have the segmentation where you have higher fossil 238 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: lock in happening in poorer countries. But there's also the 239 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: risk that investeeing signs of this already, that multilateral institution 240 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: development banks start to stop funding fossil based projects as 241 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: part of their climate first priorities in poor countries before 242 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: you have strong decarbonization in rich countries. So actually the 243 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: opposite effect where they are pushing for renewables but simply 244 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: by not providing lending for fossil resources, and at the 245 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: same time, renewable energy is not very affordable either, So 246 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: that actually puts the risk of investing in more expensive 247 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: clean energy technologies in poor countries well before they are 248 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 2: cost effective and affordable, and well before they have been 249 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: deep cuts given in Western economies. So I'm as concerned 250 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: about that second scenario as I'm concerned about the first, 251 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: where you just have a fragmentation where poor countries continue 252 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 2: to invest in fossils and we just don't meet our 253 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: broader climate targets. There's a serious case of justice playing 254 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: out over here where poor countries don't get access to 255 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 2: the technologies they need to develop, and not only are 256 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 2: we not solving the climate problem, but we're making their 257 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: existing development problems harder by making all forms of energy 258 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: expensive because we are proscribing the use of fossils without 259 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: making available cheap renewable energy technologies. 260 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: You've kind of already done this in a couple of 261 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: ways that I'm going to ask you more directly to 262 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: just sort of walk me through what a decent living 263 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: energy approach would look like in a less developed country 264 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: and a more developed country. 265 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: So the decent living standard is intended to be a 266 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: universal threshold that defines the minimum material requirements for people 267 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: to pursue a decent life. So we are developing what 268 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: we call universal satisfiers in a modern society, in a 269 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 2: modern context, which is backed up by theories of justice 270 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: of Beatrix justice. It's supported by regulations around the world 271 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: we see for different elements of decent living standards, as 272 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: well as backed by empirical support. That is, we've seen 273 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: household surveys around the world that show people want to 274 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: have certain things once they reach a certain level of income, 275 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: things like access to the internet, mobile phones, access to televisions, refrigerators, 276 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: durable housing, and things like that. So what was lacking 277 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: in the analytical space was the ability to project or 278 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: to understand the energy requirements stemming from these particular goods 279 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: and services, because we buy and large thing about energy 280 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: demand as a function of GDP growth and maybe decomposed 281 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: into industry versus transport versus buildings, but not really being 282 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: able to translate them to people's own enjoyment of services 283 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: and their well being. So this project is actually creating 284 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 2: this link between household consumption of goods and services which 285 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: provide us with well being or at least our basis 286 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: for it and the broader energy and environmental environmental impact 287 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 2: of that consumption. So what will it cost in energy 288 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: terms for meeting the transportation needs of people, the basic 289 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: mobility requirements when they move away from cycles and animal 290 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: power to motorized transport. What will it take to get 291 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 2: fifty million people households off of slums and into more 292 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: durable housing that protects them from the elements, or will 293 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: it take to get people up to the level of 294 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: nutrition that are consistent with the standards of the Food 295 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: and Agricultural Organization the FAO and with country regulations around 296 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: the world. So we have assessed this and found out 297 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: what it would take in different countries. So what's interesting 298 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: is that we learn that the most important elements of 299 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: consumption anywhere in any country that have the strongest impact 300 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 2: on climate change in terms of their energy intensity are housing, mobility, 301 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: getting around with motorized transport, and diets. These are three 302 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: of the biggest elements and one of the reasons why 303 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: they are so important is because, in contrast to say, water, sanitation, health, 304 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: and education, that are all services that are provided through 305 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: shared capital, shared resources networks, of infrastructure that are commonly 306 00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: used by large populations, cars and houses and food is 307 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: private consumption and that ends up being a lot more 308 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 2: energy per person to satisfy well being. So the insights 309 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: for poor countries, what does a decent living energy basket 310 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: look like. Equitable development that is geared towards providing these 311 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 2: fundamental services like water and sanitation, health and education are 312 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: cheapest in energy terms and provide the most important elements 313 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: of well being. In mobility and housing, if we were 314 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: to provide people options for public transit rather than just 315 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 2: supporting a card dependent economy in emerging cities in the 316 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: global South, if we were to build public housing with 317 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: local materials and efficient construction practices rather than focusing on 318 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: gated communities for high income households, we would satisfy equity 319 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 2: in terms of focusing on poor poor housing policy, and 320 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: we would reduce the footprint, the carbon footprint of housing 321 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: developments in general. So those are the key synergies we're 322 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: seeing in poor countries. Now, some elements of this are 323 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 2: the same even in rich countries. Some of the key 324 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: differences are that for the same living standard, you do 325 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: tend to require more energy in richer countries because they 326 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: tend to be colder. So northern European and northern American 327 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: countries need more energy to provide the same thermal comfort 328 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 2: at home to heat them than the energy you need 329 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 2: in subtropical and tropical climates to cool homes to the 330 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: same level of comfort. That's one important difference. Another difference 331 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 2: is we have some path dependence, you know, in our 332 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: economic structures, and ideally we would have more and more 333 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 2: people moving to public transit, which is much more efficient, 334 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: much less of an impact on climate and on the 335 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 2: environment in general. But countries like the US or Brazil 336 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 2: also or Turkey for example, they all are car dependent. 337 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: Over ninety percent of travel demand is met with cass 338 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: or road transport, so you assuming that they can shift 339 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 2: over to public transit completely is not very realistic. So 340 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: in our analysis, when we kind of create realistic assumptions 341 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 2: for the shift to public transport, you do find that 342 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: the same mobility requirements, cost warn energy terms in the 343 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: US are in Brazil compared to say India of Japan. 344 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: So those are some of the differences. There are some 345 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: colleagues of mine who are also interested in seeing these 346 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 2: decent living standards with some adjustments in terms of the 347 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: thresholds as also a sufficiency standard. That is, if we 348 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: just increase the quantity of the size of housing, the 349 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: amount of travel, the amount of food and water we 350 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: consume for different parts of the world that allow a 351 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: slightly higher quality of life, we can still use this 352 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: threshold to think about even sufficiency. As you increase consumption 353 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: levels beyond this minimum point at one time, at what 354 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: point when you start to see diminishing returns to well 355 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 2: being as we consume more and more. We know that 356 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: it has significant impacts on other people, but can we 357 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: see diminishing returns to our own well being? And we 358 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 2: don't have sufficient evidence to say that. We only have 359 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence related to income that people's self assessed to 360 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: well being in terms of life satisfaction. It keeps increasing 361 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: with income, but not at the same rate as at 362 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: lower levels of income. There's diminishing returns at a broad level. 363 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: But we need to do a lot more research to 364 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: understand how different consumption patterns contribute to well being in 365 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: affluent societies, and how we can find lifestyles and patterns 366 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: in the West that are environmentally benign because a lot 367 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: of these lifestyles are being aped in poor countries, and 368 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 2: we want to we want to generate evidence for these 369 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: lifestyles that are less consumptive and less impact from the environment, 370 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: but still give people high well being. And that's the 371 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: direction that I'm moving now with this research. 372 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: Do you find that that idea is more or less 373 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: accepted in certain areas like I know that in the 374 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: US people are loathed to think about less consumption general. 375 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you find that there's any examples of 376 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: global north countries where it's not such a big ask. 377 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: Well. I think you do see a lot more momentum 378 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: and interest in Europe in demand side questions around consumption 379 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: and sufficiency than you see in the US, and this 380 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: is indicated by the priorities in research, by the papers 381 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: that are coming out. And I should mention that the 382 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: latest sixth Assessment Report of the IPCC for the first 383 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 2: time has a demand chapter in it that outlines a 384 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 2: lot of the evidence that we've already accumulated to indicate 385 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: lifestyle changes that would be beneficial for climate and for 386 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: people's well being. A classic example being moderating meat consumption, 387 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: particularly red meat, and the impact on lower cardiovascular disease 388 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: and significant reduction in environmental impacts. So there are differences, 389 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I am seeing some discussion 390 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: in the media. I've seen in the New York Times 391 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 2: some articles that do talk about sustainable consumption that talk 392 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: about waste. I think waste is well understood in the US, 393 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: and that is a significant component of demand side discipline, 394 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: if you will, in consumption. You know, forty percent of 395 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: food that's produced is wasted in the US and twenty 396 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 2: five percent globally. Also, the circular economy is much more 397 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 2: in the public realm understanding the short product lives and 398 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: the effect that has on waste, and that indirectly, of course, 399 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: requires more energy and therefore has more of an impact 400 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: on climate change. But I would certainly say that there 401 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: is much more receptivity to these ideas in Europe. There 402 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 2: also are more examples of cities where you're seeing actual 403 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: trends of people driving less. So, for example, we've seen 404 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: a trend in Austria that younger people, younger generations, a 405 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: lower share of them are applying for driving licenses compared 406 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: to before, which is interesting. You also see in Northern 407 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: European cities a lot more people biking and walking as 408 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: a form of commuting, so we actually see as much 409 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: as there's a lot of driving, we just see an 410 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: increase in that amount of commuting by foot and by bike. 411 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: So there's good examples of those in the US. It's 412 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 2: much harder to find such examples because the cities are 413 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: not set up for that kind of infrastructure, So they 414 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: would need to be a much more transformative change here 415 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: in cities and in living to really encourage major amounts 416 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 2: of public transport. But having said that, I would say 417 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: that the electrification of mobility has the potential to avoid 418 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 2: the construction of massive public transit systems. We could use 419 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: emobility right, electric cars and electric scooters and vehicles to 420 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: create new forms of shared transit provisions, and that has 421 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: not been tapped into enough, and that is more realistic 422 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: rather than building metros everywhere in the US. I do 423 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: think we need to take advantage of shared mobility currently. Unfortunately, 424 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: we are actually increasing passenger demand with Uber and such 425 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: forms of business, but we need to transition those to 426 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: uber pool from Uber to pool right, and try and 427 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: increase the use of shared scooters and car services that 428 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: are as they're electrifying rather than just providing subsidies for 429 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: SUVs that are hybrid and have some electricity use, because 430 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: that's not that's not going to move the needle enough. 431 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I just was looking at this 432 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: ad database thing that shows using what companies are spending 433 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: on different types of advertising, and all the US automakers 434 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: are spending two or three times on marketing the SUV 435 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: electric vehicles than the compact efficient vehicles, which seems like 436 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: a potential problem. 437 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, it's it's true that electric vehicles 438 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 2: are generally more efficient and they will reduce emissions, but 439 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: we have to think that we are needing to increase 440 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: the size of our electricity systems to support that much 441 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 2: more electricity demand. And that pressure is not trivial because 442 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: in the US we're already seeing a slight slowdown in 443 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 2: renewable investments, not because of the lack of financial investment, 444 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: but because of permitting requirements for connecting to the grid 445 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 2: and getting permits for the land. And that slowdown is 446 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: equally critical in terms of bottlenecks, because time is a 447 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: pe urgency and the total even the total amount that 448 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: we have to grow the electricity system is an issue. 449 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: The more we need to invest, the slower we're going 450 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: to reach our targets. 451 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: I know this is like a really really broad question, 452 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: but are there particular policies that you think could sort 453 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: of get at these things quickest, Like where do you 454 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: think the US attention would best be placed. 455 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: So in the US, I think we have great momentum 456 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: with the Inflation Reduction Act. It's a good start, and 457 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: there has been a lot of investments in some of 458 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: the right places. But I would want to see a shift, 459 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: like I said, rather than just rebates for electric vehicles 460 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: at large, policies that are supporting shared mobility, shared services 461 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: in particular would be really important. Of course, more investments 462 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: in transit infrastructure, which is a political issue, but that 463 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: would be essential. More support for research into electrification of 464 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: the entire transport and housing sector. So in the case 465 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: of housing, we have not put enough money into electrifying 466 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: homes and considering homes holistically in terms of upgrading them. 467 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: For that low income communities get services that they haven't 468 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 2: gotten yet. For example, a lot of homes don't heat 469 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: and cool their homes as much as they want to 470 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 2: because they kind of afford to their homes are of 471 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 2: poor quality. So there's a chance here to have an 472 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: equitable kind of an upgrade to have the housing sector, 473 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: which is very much part of the priorities of the 474 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: government in terms of the Justice forty initiative, in which 475 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: they want to direct the benefits of federal investments to 476 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 2: disadvantaged communities, but these need to be translated into policies. 477 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: I think significant investments into housing retrofits is going to 478 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: be critical in the US, and they're not doing in 479 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: that realm at all. An issue with regards to the 480 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: size of homes as well. New homes in the US 481 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: are significantly larger than new homes in some of the 482 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 2: richest countries in Europe, and that's something that is not 483 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 2: something one can regulate. It's anaphema to think about reducing consumption. 484 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: But if there's some way to creatively progressively tax houses, 485 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: raise revenues to retrofit them to make them much more efficient, 486 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: that would be some kind of a way to tackle 487 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: that issue. The food sector is untouched in this country. 488 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: I think we need to have incentives policy incentives for 489 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: healthier diets that are more environmentally friendly, and I would 490 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 2: say these same sectors should be the focus in other 491 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: countries as well, you know, housing, transport, and food. These 492 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: are the most important sectors within which we need to 493 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: make transformative change we will have the biggest impact on 494 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: well being simultaneously with environmental impact. 495 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you want to share about 496 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: research that you're in the process of, or any recent 497 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: publications or anything like that that we didn't talk about. 498 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: It's really important in our research to try and mainstream 499 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: well being as an actual concrete measure in our policy 500 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: and in our research, because we need to start thinking 501 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: of ways we can demonstrate synergies between lifestyle changes technology 502 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: changes that are beneficial for climate and for ourselves, because 503 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: the current mode is encouraging only these decarbonization technologies of 504 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: the existing system, and that's not going to get us 505 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: far enough. So the direction that I'm focusing on bringing 506 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: consumption directly into the center of our analysis, from which 507 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: we trace the decarbonization of the rest of the economy 508 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: allows us to look at well being more directly. And 509 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: I do have a paper on this where I outline 510 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: this future research agenda and nature sustainability that I think 511 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: is one way to think about moving forward. I do 512 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: think there's increased research on how people assess their own 513 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: lives in terms of life satisfaction, but we need more 514 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: research to link at to people's consumption patterns and lifestyles. 515 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: It's also a direction that I'd like to go that 516 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: I'm working on. 517 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: That's so interesting and also interesting that there's not much 518 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,479 Speaker 1: of that research yet. 519 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean people have looked at the correlation between 520 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: average household income and people's life satisfaction or people's happiness, 521 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: you know, if you're familiar with the happiness in the 522 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 2: X and others such. Yeah, and we do see some trends, 523 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: very mixed evidence of the saturation of well being, but 524 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 2: it's not very strong. People's life satisfaction continues to increase 525 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: a high levels of income, so we don't but we 526 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: don't have an understanding of what aspects of their life 527 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 2: are driving those calls of high well being. It could 528 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: be that it could be dimensions that are not really 529 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: the ones in which we're spending all our money, you know. 530 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: It could be areas that are extremely benign environmentally, in 531 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 2: which case we're spending lot of money doing things that 532 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 2: don't matter so much to us and we don't know 533 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: it ourselves. We have if we see evidence of it 534 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: it may influence us. 535 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. My husband is like a giant nerd 536 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: for spreadsheets and data, and we spent a year, maybe 537 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: five or six years ago, tracking how we spent money 538 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: and time and then rating how that equated to life 539 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: satisfaction and actually ended up making a bunch of really 540 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: big changes because we were like, Oh, we're spending all 541 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 1: this money to do this thing that we don't even 542 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: care about that much, which is live in the Bay Area, 543 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: a very expensive place. 544 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: That's great, That's exactly the kind of thing you know, 545 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 2: I would want people to do. 546 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: Yes, it changed my whole approach to work too. 547 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 2: I wanted to mention one thing again, you know, so 548 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 2: a couple of things. There is also a hunch that 549 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 2: I have that the lifestyles that we lead are coming 550 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: at the expense of our feeling of community and social coretedness, 551 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: and the social isanationalism is leading to so many social problems, 552 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 2: and it is driven at least in part by our 553 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: structure of living, our urban form and sprawl, and many 554 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: other sub social factors as well. So that another area 555 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: where we can think, are we really furthering our own 556 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: social wellbeing in this kind of expensive isolationist form of infrastructure, 557 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: which is also costing us in terms of climate. 558 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: All right, well, I really appreciate you taking the time 559 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: street to talk to it. This is the context Guyana 560 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: is operating in. Hundreds of years of colonialism have not 561 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: left it with a lot of great choices. This is 562 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: how a country becomes dependent on oil companies to pay 563 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: for climate adaptation. Changing that math means making other options 564 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: readily available and truly valuing the sort of conservation efforts 565 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: that Guyana was known for before it got into the 566 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: oil business. That's our story next time.