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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in. This is All Ball, the All basketball

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Speaker 1: podcast on the HERD Podcast Network. And man, this is

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Speaker 1: a good one. How do I know? Well, I just know. Um.

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Speaker 1: I have two guests for you on this version of

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Speaker 1: All Ball. One is Adams Sigoria. He if you know

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Speaker 1: anything about hoops, he know Zags has his own blog

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Speaker 1: and I think he does an amazing job. Um. You

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Speaker 1: can see him on s n Y TV. You can

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Speaker 1: read his work in The New York Times, or he

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Speaker 1: has his own blog. He covers high school, high school recruiting,

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Speaker 1: college pro like. He's a play's a ball guy, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I think you'll like um some of the Q

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Speaker 1: and A, including his thoughts on on u c l

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Speaker 1: A Basketball even my thoughts in a second. And then

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Speaker 1: Russey LaRue is is uh my kind of featured long

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Speaker 1: form interview guest on this version of All Ball. Rusty

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Speaker 1: was a great player, but um more than anything, maybe

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Speaker 1: the greatest modern day a C C athlete ever. And

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Speaker 1: by that I mean Charlie Wood played football in basketball

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Speaker 1: Florida State and won the Heisman Trophy, so he was

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Speaker 1: more decorated and obviously as a football player, UM, more impactful.

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Speaker 1: You would think and then of course Charlie Wood played

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Speaker 1: more in the NBA than Rusty LaRue. Rusty also played baseball,

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Speaker 1: and Rusty said a bunch of n c A records

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Speaker 1: as a quarterback at wake Forest, so he played in

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Speaker 1: the NBA with the Bulls. Was part of Michael Jordan's

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Speaker 1: last championship team, played obviously with Tim Duncan Randolph Children's

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Speaker 1: played for Dave Odham coached with two different regimes, Dino

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Speaker 1: Gadio and uh Jeff Bezdelic at his all moderate wake Forest.

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Speaker 1: And then Um had and had the worst possible tragedy

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Speaker 1: you can have as a parent happened him when his

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Speaker 1: son Riley tragically died at just nineteen years old. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna get to all of it with Rusty upcoming, So Um,

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Speaker 1: sit back, relax, and when you get down with this podcast,

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Speaker 1: make sure you're not only downloaded, you subscribed and you rated,

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Speaker 1: but send it to a friend like you're gonna this is.

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Speaker 1: I love doing this. I love that you've spent some

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Speaker 1: time because in in order to get a podcast, you've

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Speaker 1: got to spend a little bit of time searching it out.

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Speaker 1: Once you do, it's gonna be a little bit of investment.

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Speaker 1: So sit back, relax. I think you'll enjoy this one.

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Speaker 1: A couple of notes. One, you can always listen to

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Speaker 1: the Doug Gottlib Show that is three to six Eastern time,

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Speaker 1: twelve to three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Any of

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Speaker 1: our hundreds of affiliates were also on Serious x M.

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Speaker 1: On x M it's two oh three series is to

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Speaker 1: seventeen that's three to six Eastern time, twelve to three Pacific.

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Speaker 1: Or just go to Fox Sports Tradio dot com and

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Speaker 1: you can find a local affiliate or download the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app. So there's how you can get me.

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Speaker 1: And I'll put this out on my Twitter page as well.

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Speaker 1: I had a Philip Lindsay interview that I think you're

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Speaker 1: gonna love if you like great personal story, he's you

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Speaker 1: like the Philip Lindsay who's a pro bowler as an

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Speaker 1: undrafted rookie running back, first ever undrafted rockie running back

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Speaker 1: to be a pro bowler in Pro Bowl history. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that aside, let me get to a couple of college

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Speaker 1: basketball topics that I have one NBA thought for you,

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Speaker 1: the college basketball topics. Let's start with U c l A.

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Speaker 1: U c l a's basketball job is open. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I've learned steadily as things have

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Speaker 1: gone on. Part of it is you established relationships. I've

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Speaker 1: covered Steve Alford Um. He and I had budded heads

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Speaker 1: when he was at Iowa. I covered him when he's

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Speaker 1: in New Mexico, including their their upset loss to Harvard.

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Speaker 1: I thought he did a great job in New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a little bit of a weird

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Speaker 1: hire at U c l A. But I thought, all right,

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Speaker 1: maybe it could work. And whether it was not having

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Speaker 1: Craig Neil Noodles on his staff, whether it's the fact

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Speaker 1: that he never really fit into l A hoops, I

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Speaker 1: actually thought they were better coached offensively and at times

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Speaker 1: when he was in New Mexico. Like, I don't think

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Speaker 1: he's a bad coach, and I think he's a very

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Speaker 1: good coach. Um. But some of it is the college

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Speaker 1: game has evolved some and so some of his styles

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Speaker 1: maybe didn't work as much. I don't know, but for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, it just didn't work at U c l A.

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Speaker 1: I don't like firing coaches mid season, but the team

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Speaker 1: had had seemed to have quit on him, and now

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Speaker 1: U c l A has a chance to win a

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Speaker 1: lot of games, a lot of games this year because

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Speaker 1: Pactol is not great, and though they have young players,

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Speaker 1: they have young talented players, and I think it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be fascinating to see how they finished the year. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sit here and profess to know what

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Speaker 1: Dan guerreros is thinking or tell you specifically what Dan

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Speaker 1: Guerrero should do, but I will tell you that I

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Speaker 1: feel like I know more about u c l A

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Speaker 1: basketball than most anybody who covers it on a national level,

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Speaker 1: outside obviously of Steve Lavin, who I worked with at Fox.

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Speaker 1: Steve is the head coach at u c l A.

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Speaker 1: So um, even more so than Sean Farnham, who I

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Speaker 1: like Farney a lot. We'll have him on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Farney played at u c l A. He started to

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Speaker 1: walk on, became a team captain and scholarship play UH

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Speaker 1: later on his career and fort He lives in l

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Speaker 1: A and knows the U c l A posse pretty well,

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Speaker 1: but growing up in northern California, he didn't know it

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Speaker 1: like I know it like my people who know me.

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Speaker 1: My dad was a former college coach um and we

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Speaker 1: were extremely close to the Hazards, UM, whether it was

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Speaker 1: to two Hazard that's Rashid Hazzard who's down assist in

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Speaker 1: the NBA, or the little Hazard that's Doc, his older brother,

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Speaker 1: who's a great UH music producer. Um. They played with

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Speaker 1: us in a you we were season ticket holders, and

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Speaker 1: then when Jim Herrick got the job, My dad was

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Speaker 1: really close with Jim and Mark Godfrey and Lorenzo Romar

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Speaker 1: uh and then when Lab got the job. Like look,

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Speaker 1: we were always kind of tight with U c l

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Speaker 1: Like my sister was a cheerleader, brother went there, So

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Speaker 1: I know a lot about the the program is is

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Speaker 1: is interesting because on one hand, on one hand, you

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Speaker 1: have the fan base that has the expectations of being

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Speaker 1: competitive and successful at the level of the Dukes to Carolina's,

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Speaker 1: the Kentucky Used, the Kansas of the World and even Arizona,

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Speaker 1: and yet they don't show up for midweek games or

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Speaker 1: games that they feel like don't matter. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of arrogance to it there there was. I

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Speaker 1: think it's always been kind of a University UM arrogance

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Speaker 1: in U c l A. They wouldn't redo Polly forever.

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Speaker 1: They hadn't had a practice facility until what this last

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Speaker 1: year and a half and when you just and they

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Speaker 1: weren't paying coaches, so you just show up and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're u c l A. You know, why doesn't everybody

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Speaker 1: love us? Why aren't we compete for national championships? Ben

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Speaker 1: Hallan obviously came and went to three straight final fours,

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Speaker 1: and even then people didn't seem to totally love him

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Speaker 1: or his style or appreciate him. And some of it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, Ben turned off the wrong people in au

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Speaker 1: and what it's more complex. Maybe we'll do a whole

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Speaker 1: podcast on u c l A Basketball's it really a

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Speaker 1: fascinating thing. But but but knowing the history of it,

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Speaker 1: knowing how hard it is, but also knowing that they

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Speaker 1: do have the financial resources, they have the arena done,

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Speaker 1: they had the practicacility done. Like now should be a

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Speaker 1: great time to hire a coach, and there's some pretty

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Speaker 1: good ones available Fred Hoiberg, potentially Rick pettino Um and

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Speaker 1: I think there are other coaches that would but previously

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have looked at u c l A. But now

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Speaker 1: maybe they will. The the issue is l A has

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Speaker 1: has evolved for twenty years. You didn't have a football

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Speaker 1: team professional football team. Now you have to and while

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Speaker 1: the Chargers having hit, that still diverts a lot of

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Speaker 1: your attention. In the fall, usc football wall A mess

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Speaker 1: um is a big thing because of how competitive and

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Speaker 1: successful they were for fifteen years. They're under Peat and

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Speaker 1: under some of the people that followed him U c

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Speaker 1: l A Football Chip Kelly finally has a facility on campus,

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Speaker 1: finally paid at a rate commensurate with the top level

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Speaker 1: coach in the back twelve. They weren't very good this year,

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Speaker 1: but super young, and so even within the school there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention paid there um. Students across the

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Speaker 1: country have changed in terms of how much they watch

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Speaker 1: and listen and pay attention to college basketball. Getting students

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Speaker 1: to come to games is hard anywhere, even in college towns,

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Speaker 1: let alone in l A. And if you know about

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Speaker 1: the diversity at u c l A. Like, look, there's

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Speaker 1: a strong international student base. That's not always easy to

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Speaker 1: get them to come to a college game. When you're

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Speaker 1: playing Washington State, you know what I mean. Whereas when

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Speaker 1: you're at one of those other legit elite programs, you

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Speaker 1: turn the lights on, you say there's a basketball game,

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Speaker 1: and fall down field House is filled, or ropp Arena

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Speaker 1: is filled, or caeren Indoor Stadium is filled. Like that,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a happening. And now you have Lebron

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Speaker 1: in l A. And the thought is that the Clippers

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Speaker 1: are gonna get maybe a Kawhi Leonard. And even for

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Speaker 1: basketball fans, it's hard to get attention. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's a better job in terms of the resources, but

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Speaker 1: it's a harder job in terms of getting people to

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Speaker 1: care than it used to be. It just is I um,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could go further than than you know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that they've struggled with, Steve Alford

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Speaker 1: struggled with was chartering flights. And while you may say, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're in l A. You can fly NonStop to any

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Speaker 1: one of these pack twelves cities, you can. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: in the Pac twel if you plan on Wednesday and

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Speaker 1: a Sunday and go into class is in fact important.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you gotta leave Tuesday night and then

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Speaker 1: you play Wednesday night. If you charter you could actually

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Speaker 1: leave day of the game, although most teams don't. You

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Speaker 1: leave Tuesday night, you get done with the game Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: you fly back Wednesday, y you go to school Thursday Friday,

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Speaker 1: and then if you play Saturday, you leave Friday night,

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Speaker 1: or if you play Sunday you don't leave until Saturday.

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Speaker 1: You only miss one day at class. Whereas if you're

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Speaker 1: going to fly commercial, you gotta fly. You flap Sunday

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Speaker 1: night and then you play the game Wednesday and then

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Speaker 1: you travel back Thursday. You don't go to class until

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Speaker 1: Thursday afternoon when most kids don't have class, and then

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Speaker 1: Friday it's it's just different. And the big time programs

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Speaker 1: all charter. They just do the big time ones and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the smaller time ones, the higher level

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Speaker 1: what used to be mid majors, the Cratons of the world,

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Speaker 1: the xaviors of the world. They charter now. Why because

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Speaker 1: class important, time is important. Um. And some of this

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Speaker 1: has been screwed up by the new TV deal. Where

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Speaker 1: it used to be you'd go and play Oregon Oregon

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Speaker 1: State on a Thursday and a Saturday, so you travel up,

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Speaker 1: but on Wednesday you do Thursday, Friday, you have you

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Speaker 1: know your tutors, you fake like you're going to class whatever,

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Speaker 1: you do all your stuff there and then you play

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Speaker 1: your game Saturday. You come back Sunday. Now the schedule

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Speaker 1: is so mishmash is very, very difficult. So there's still

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Speaker 1: some challenges there in terms of travel and budgeting and

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Speaker 1: will they pay assistant coaches, And you might be sitting there.

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Speaker 1: You might sit there and say, why does that matter. Well, Look,

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Speaker 1: if you're assistant coach at Oregon State and you make

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Speaker 1: two d fifty three thousand dollars, like, wow, it's a lot.

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Speaker 1: At organ State, you get a nice house and you

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Speaker 1: can live ten minutes from campus, so you're always around,

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Speaker 1: you're always available. If you're at u C l A

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Speaker 1: and you make two hundred three hundred thousand dollars, you

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Speaker 1: can't afford to live close unless you're renting an apartment

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Speaker 1: or renting a house. You know, even Steve Alford lived,

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Speaker 1: you know, with bad traffic. There be five forty minutes

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Speaker 1: right next to Brentwood, right next to Beverly Hills. Like

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Speaker 1: it's a very very nice and west side of l

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Speaker 1: say a USC USC you might make the same amount

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Speaker 1: of money as an assistant coach, and USC is an

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Speaker 1: you can live in downtown l A, which is now

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Speaker 1: down payment on a house or a condo that you

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Speaker 1: want to buy, USC being a private school can give

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Speaker 1: you an interest free loan, and so it becomes a

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Speaker 1: better job because you can live better. And then when

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Speaker 1: if you move on from USC, you sell your house,

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Speaker 1: you make money, you pay back to interest for your loan,

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Speaker 1: and then you've also made money in addition to the the

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Speaker 1: money you were making as a as an assistant coach.

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Speaker 1: So it's a challenging job. I do this. Look if

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Speaker 1: i'm if I'm u c l A, I I take

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Speaker 1: a shot at the moon the stars in the sun.

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Speaker 1: Has Greg Marshall topped out at Wichita State, he would

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Speaker 1: not have. He'd probably have a tough time adjusting a

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Speaker 1: little bit to l A. You know, being guy who

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Speaker 1: then worked his way up and was dominant Winthrop and

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Speaker 1: after being at College Charleston as assistant and you know

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Speaker 1: which to state like, it's a it's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle just but he's a great basketball coach. UH

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Speaker 1: there have been talking, hey, why not Jay Wright? I

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Speaker 1: don't know if Jay Wright says no. He's won two

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Speaker 1: national titles, and hell, I think had had Dante Di

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Speaker 1: Vincenzo and and Uh and Spellman come back, they might

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Speaker 1: win another one this year at least compete for another

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Speaker 1: one this year. So he's built a juggernaut there. But

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Speaker 1: do you feel like, Hey, I've topped out. I've I've

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Speaker 1: climbed the mountain twice, conquered the mountain twice. Why I try?

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Speaker 1: L A Lebron did? Why can't I? Those are calls

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Speaker 1: I would make. How I'd call it? Tom Is though,

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Speaker 1: why not? Hey, you want to come out of here

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Speaker 1: and and want to take a shot at U C

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Speaker 1: l A and changing our culture. It doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: those guys are gonna say yes, but the idea that

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Speaker 1: we fall back up. I think Patino's the best modern

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Speaker 1: day college basketball coach. There is one at Providence embraced

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Speaker 1: the three point shot, one at Kentucky, dominant recruiting, incredible depth,

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Speaker 1: one at Louisville UM when you know and and did

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Speaker 1: so when Kentucky was good. So I think he's amazing,

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Speaker 1: and I would I would kick the tires on that.

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Speaker 1: The problem with it is the perception of that. And

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Speaker 1: you have to understand you see schools between you know,

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Speaker 1: the board regions. Um, I just I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't think PCU, which is a movie is there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of pc U in U c l A. And

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Speaker 1: so I don't see it happening. But from my basketball perspective,

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Speaker 1: Patino's amazing. He's an amazing coach and uh he's brought

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Speaker 1: in incredible assistant coaches wherever he's been would just be

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Speaker 1: a fascinating thing to see. But if I'm U c

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Speaker 1: l A, I don't sell myself short. I try every

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Speaker 1: I try all the big name coaches that might not

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Speaker 1: be happy where they are. I and and see Quinn

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Speaker 1: Snyder with the Utah Jazz. I know he failed ultimately

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Speaker 1: at Missouri, but he's he's learned, he's matured. Um, he's

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Speaker 1: been remarried and he's a great coach with the jest.

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Speaker 1: Now the timing might not work out. In addition to

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Speaker 1: Fred Hoiberg, who everybody and if people are gonna say

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Speaker 1: Roll Watson, I'm not against Roll Watson. The idea that

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Speaker 1: you would have all the recent alumni that whole basketball

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Speaker 1: family reunited and energized in recruiting, like I'd be willing

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Speaker 1: to see that, but I gotta see if i'm Dan Garro,

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Speaker 1: the plan, what's your staff like, how's it gonna work?

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Speaker 1: And then you have to you have to get Casey

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Speaker 1: Wasserman on board. You have to get all those other

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Speaker 1: donors on board, because you only win in college sports

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Speaker 1: when everyone's pulling in the same direction. President, board, a,

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Speaker 1: d coaches, et cetera. And once if you can get that,

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Speaker 1: I think U c l A, while it will never

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Speaker 1: be what it was, can get back to being competitive nationally.

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Speaker 1: And there's no reason that they in Arizona can't be

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Speaker 1: at the top. But the pack twelve every year? Now

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Speaker 1: will they fill the arena? Some of that does fall

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Speaker 1: on the shoulders of u c l A students and

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Speaker 1: u c l as fans. They're hyper critical of the coaches.

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Speaker 1: They always have been. You grew up in southern California

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Speaker 1: and they didn't like Hazard, they didn't like Herrick, and

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Speaker 1: they want to get rid of Heck, people forget that

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Speaker 1: at Taya SETI not made that running lay up against Missouri.

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Speaker 1: Herrick gets fired the next day that happens, but they did.

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Speaker 1: They go on to win Nation Championship, and then ultimately, uh,

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Speaker 1: they end up getting him for you know, falsifying some

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Speaker 1: expense reports, what are some other nonsense. They just never

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Speaker 1: loved and embraced Herrick, and as good as Ben Howland was,

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Speaker 1: there was a lack of love and embrace. There's just

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Speaker 1: no one's been able to kind of figure that place out.

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Speaker 1: And we'll see how Murray Bartow does the rest of

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Speaker 1: the season. He's a really good man, and obviously his

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Speaker 1: name carries a ton of weight there, and they've played

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Speaker 1: better since he's been there. Although I think most you

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Speaker 1: know my brothers and assistant Oregon State. I do hope

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Speaker 1: the Beavers sweep this weekend and then I get a

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Speaker 1: chance to see undefeated Pack twelve Beavers take on Arizona

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Speaker 1: State this upcoming Thursday on Fox Sports One. This is

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Speaker 1: the All Ball Podcast, Quick Thought on the NBA, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll get you, uh to our guest for this week.

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Speaker 1: On Wednesday night, Kyle Kuzman went for forty one points

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Speaker 1: in just three quarters against the Lakers. We do this

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Speaker 1: thing when we evaluate players, and I've obviously recently come

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Speaker 1: under a little bit of fire. Steph Curry wrote a

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Speaker 1: piece and the Players You Should Be Tribute and it

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Speaker 1: talked about how when he came out for the draft,

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Speaker 1: I undervalued him, and it's it's accurate. I did think

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Speaker 1: Johnny Flynn had a greater ceiling. I thought Johnny Flynn

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Speaker 1: could be could be the next Kevin Johnson. And look,

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Speaker 1: no one wants to mention that Johnny Finn played in

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Speaker 1: the triangle, which is a terrible set up for how

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Speaker 1: he plays. And Johnny Flynn hurt his hip, and you

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Speaker 1: know that's why he doesn't play basketball anymore. But I

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Speaker 1: thought Flynn and I thought Ricky Rubio had a higher ceiling.

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Speaker 1: I did think that that Jeff Tigue was a really

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Speaker 1: good player and that he was more athletic, had had

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Speaker 1: a better first step. Look, the league evolved, Steph got better.

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Speaker 1: I was wrong in my evaluation, not as wrong as

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Speaker 1: the Sports Center tweet would make it out to be

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Speaker 1: if you actually go back and read my work, but

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Speaker 1: because sometimes you miss guys in evaluation. Totally fair, um,

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Speaker 1: but I think one of the other the biggest mistake

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Speaker 1: we make as guys that try and evaluate what a

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Speaker 1: player will be in the NBA and Listen, guys, make

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Speaker 1: this mistake in evaluating high school players and what they'll

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Speaker 1: be in college as well is work ethic and role

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Speaker 1: and what they're you know, as Kyle Kuzman is the example.

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Speaker 1: So KU's plays at Utah and he plays inside, and

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Speaker 1: he was a post up player. He wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: shoot three point shots. And so while he's continued to

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Speaker 1: improve become a dynamic score in the NBA, it's got

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Speaker 1: to become a better defender. I don't know if he'll

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Speaker 1: become a better passer, but he has to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit more willing of a passer. But he's a

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Speaker 1: dynamic score inside and out. He's tremendous. He hasn't He

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Speaker 1: didn't shoot college threes. Now he's shooting pro threes. And

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Speaker 1: and his work ethic, which I do think people understood,

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Speaker 1: and that's why he went in the first round of

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Speaker 1: the draft. His work ethic is so good, so incredibly

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Speaker 1: locked in that I will guarantee this by year five,

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Speaker 1: he'll be a forty three point shooter. He just hasn't

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Speaker 1: done it. But when we evaluated Kyle Kuzman, we thought

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Speaker 1: already he's twenty three years old as a rookie. This

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Speaker 1: is kind of who he is as opposed to nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old kids like when Devin Booker came out or

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Speaker 1: Terrell Harris came out, we thought they had more room

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Speaker 1: for growth even at twenty three. You can have room

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Speaker 1: for growth if your style of play limited what you

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Speaker 1: were able to do and what you worked on. So

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Speaker 1: it does make for a really hard evaluation. And Steph

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Speaker 1: is another example of that because he only played point

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Speaker 1: guard one year at Davidson and in addition to the the

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Speaker 1: fact the role of the point guard has changed since

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Speaker 1: he's been in the NBA and changed based upon how

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Speaker 1: he played. It wasn't that he wasn't able to Is that?

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Speaker 1: I think it was. Jason Richard was an outstanding point art,

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Speaker 1: a borderline pro before he got hurt point guard and

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Speaker 1: that's why he was playing the two. But not having

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Speaker 1: evaluated him on what he uh could work on and

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Speaker 1: what he can prove on ultimately was my fatal flaw

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Speaker 1: in that evaluation. So that makes sense. I hope it

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Speaker 1: makes sense. So this week's yest is I think in

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Speaker 1: arguably in modern sports, in the A c C. Definitely

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Speaker 1: in Wakefurce history, you think, hey, who's the greatest modern

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Speaker 1: day athlete, and people appoint to obviously Michael Jordan's uh

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Speaker 1: two sport athlete. People part to Charlie Ward also in

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Speaker 1: the A c C. Or of course when you mentioned

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Speaker 1: Wake Forest, everybody thinks of Tim Duncan. What about a

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Speaker 1: guy who played and start in three sports in college

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Speaker 1: at Wake Force, including setting passing records in the A

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Speaker 1: C C, in the n c A and of course

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Speaker 1: then playing in the NBA. And Basketball's Rusty LaRue. He's

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Speaker 1: kind of joined us on the All Ball podcast, Rusty,

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Speaker 1: how are you? I'm great? I'm well. Um, have you

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Speaker 1: ever heard put it, had anybody put into context that

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Speaker 1: way that you verry could well be the greatest modern

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Speaker 1: day A C C athlete? Well, you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: every now and then somebody will kind of joke with

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Speaker 1: me about that because obviously, uh, you know me well,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not a physical specimen, um, but uh,

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Speaker 1: but I did I had a good career, so I've

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously done a lot of things some people

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Speaker 1: haven't done. So all right, So you grew up, grew

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Speaker 1: up in in Greensboro, North Carolina, You're all state in

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Speaker 1: three sports. What was the process like of deciding, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I want to try and play three sports in college. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean I just grew up playing multiple sports.

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Speaker 1: I think everybody did back you know, it's a lot

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Speaker 1: harder now, But back when I was young, I started,

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Speaker 1: you know, basketball and baseball when I was six, and

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Speaker 1: football when I was eight, and it was just kind

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Speaker 1: of something that was natural, you know. I went season

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Speaker 1: to season, and uh, when the time came for college,

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Speaker 1: I got recruited by a lot of schools, more big

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Speaker 1: schools for football. UM, but basketball kind of I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it always been my favorite, but it was

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Speaker 1: something I didn't really want to give up. And when

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Speaker 1: I was actually in high school, the UM and I

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Speaker 1: committed to Wake actually before my right into my junior year,

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Speaker 1: UM on a football scholarship, and part of the agreement

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Speaker 1: was I would definitely play basketball. Um. And after I

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Speaker 1: committed to that, the actual baseball coach would come out

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Speaker 1: and watch me play some my junior year and my

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Speaker 1: senior year. He said, hey, if you ever want to

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Speaker 1: play baseball, we'd love to have you as well. So, um,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of one of the things where I

427
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: knew I was gonna play too. But you know, kind

428
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: of toyed with the idea of playing a little baseball

429
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: as well. Okay, so you get to Wake Forest, how

430
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: do you how do you do it? Right? Because I

431
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: was I was actually talking to my son last night

432
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,959
Speaker 1: because I knew we were going to talk, and he

433
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: was saying, Dad, what what sports should I play? He plays,

434
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, basketball, baseball, football, tennis, um, and I've done

435
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: a little wrestling before whatever. And I was like, well,

436
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: we'll just kind of try and figure it out as

437
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: you go as you get How did you do it?

438
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: And it seems like a crazy juggling act. Yeah, I

439
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 1: mean it was. I just I don't know. I probably

440
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 1: couldn't have done it many places other than Wake just

441
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: because it's such a small school. Um and you know,

442
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: and I grew up twenty minutes from campus, so I

443
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: had a lot of family and friends and support of

444
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: people that you know, I wasn't being shipped off across

445
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: the country. So I was right here in my backyard

446
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: with family, friends, support, and for me, it was just

447
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: kind of you know, getting up every day and doing

448
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: what was on my calendar. I had great coaches who

449
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: let me play the sport I was in. I look,

450
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: I understand all that, but like, okay, so you show

451
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: up like you have to show up what, uh summer

452
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: for football? Right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean I was

453
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: in summer school all summer getting ready for football. But

454
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: you know I was like, you know, basketball coaches weren't

455
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, they understood when I was a football They

456
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: let me be with football now. You know, obviously I

457
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: got in the gym some on my own for hoops

458
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: so I wouldn't be behind. But you know, football had

459
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: me during football. And literally the day football ended, um heck,

460
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: my senior year, I played in an exhibition basketball game

461
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: the same day I played in my last football game.

462
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: You know, so when it ended, I went to basketball,

463
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: and football left me alone other than telling me to

464
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: eat so I wouldn't lose weight. And then uh, when

465
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: when basketball ended, I went right back to football. And

466
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: and actually the year I played baseball, I had to

467
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: do spring football first, and so I didn't get to

468
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: go out to baseball until spring football was over. And

469
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: you guys are good at basketball too, So you're playing basketball,

470
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, deep into March, right, It's not like it's

471
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: not like you're it's not like you're over at the

472
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: sec tournament, Like all right, well, now I can wrap

473
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: it up and then we get ready for spring football

474
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: like that that I mean, I like, listen, this is

475
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: on a much lower level. When I was in high

476
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: school my freshman year, we go to the state, we

477
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: go to the state tournament in basketball, we get done,

478
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: of course in California, start playing baseball in January. We

479
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: get done, and it's nearly the first of March, and

480
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: kind of everybody had positions, right, so, um, you know

481
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: it's and and again, it's not like you're playing a position.

482
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: We're like, oh, we'll stick him a wide receiver at

483
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: tight end. You're playing quarterback where you have to know

484
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: everything that's going on. Like that seems like and and

485
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,479
Speaker 1: you're also an excellent student. That's was like a lot

486
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: of mental gymnastics. It is. I mean, it's tough. I

487
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: mean I said it was easy. I mean, I guess

488
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: I felt like it wasn't too difficult because it's something

489
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: I had done a lot. But I didn't have a

490
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: lot of you know, I didn't do a lot of

491
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: extracurricular activities either. I was pretty much you know, books

492
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: and ball. Um. I was my current wife. We started

493
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: dating my freshman year of high school. So I wasn't

494
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: I wasn't spend a lot of time on that. Uh

495
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: you know, I was pretty much That's like I told

496
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: my my boys. You know, his books and ball for

497
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: me and um obviously football being on scholarship, that's got

498
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: took up more of my time. Um. I I don't

499
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: think I probably was as effective basketball player in college

500
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: is I could have been if I would have only

501
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: focused on basketball. Um, When I was able to focus

502
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: just on basketball, obviously I had a chance to to

503
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: play professionally and win a championship with the Bulls because

504
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: you know, I grew a lot as a player, you know,

505
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: when I was able to focus on an individually, and

506
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: because football leads right up to basketball and basketball and

507
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: it went right it back into spring football. You know

508
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: that was what paid the bills and having on scholarships,

509
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: are pretty much had to spend most time on that. Um. Okay,

510
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 1: So when you're playing at Wake Forest, what was Dave

511
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: v Him like to play for? You know, Dave was

512
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: is a great coach first of all. Um, you know

513
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: he was great for me because he was a very

514
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: um kind of no frills guy. I mean, I was

515
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: I was a hard worker and put in my time.

516
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't play hardly any as a freshman.

517
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: I played you know, sparingly as a as a sophomore,

518
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: I was the sixth man as a junior, and then

519
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: I started as a senior. And um, his style of play,

520
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: um was was a good fit for me. Um. Obviously

521
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: we had some great players Randolph Children's Tim Duncan, um,

522
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: and so I was a good key piece to go

523
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: along with us. But I just enjoyed. He's a great guy, um,

524
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: you know, as you've probably been around him, some great storyteller,

525
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: um you know, and just a it's a good good

526
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: fit for me personally as a player. UM. When I

527
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: was coming through college, what was it was Tim Duncan.

528
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: Like in college Tim you know, terms of terms of

529
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: the worker, I mean Tim's quiet. Um just kind of

530
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: one of those guys who keeps to himself, but unbelievably

531
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, competitive and and um just freakishly skilled like

532
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: most great players are. Just his hand eye coordination and

533
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: um ability to see things and do things. Um. You know,

534
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: he spent a lot of time with me and my

535
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: family because you know, being from the Virgin Islands, I

536
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: mean living fifteen minutes away. He spent most Thanksgiving and

537
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: Christmas Is at our house along with Ricky Barral who

538
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: was from Spain. And um, just a down to earth guy,

539
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean not not not flashy, um, but

540
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: but just guy Lee. I mean, you look at the

541
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: box scre at the end of the game, you'd be like, man,

542
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: you know twenty nine and nineteen and uh, you try

543
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: to think of a play that stood out during the game.

544
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: Maybe there was a you know, eight ESPN highlight and

545
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: you just like, Nope, he just put in work and

546
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: war as Hardhatton brought his luge pail and put it

547
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: did work. Did you know when you play like honestly

548
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: right and you are an incredibly honest person, did you

549
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: have any idea he would go down as one of

550
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: the all time greatest players? Uh? Probably not until about

551
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: my going into my junie. Probably about my junior year,

552
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: um really, because you know, as a freshman you saw

553
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: all the glimpses, but he was just you know, kind

554
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: of this young kid. And I mean, but I would

555
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: get to see him and pick up, We play pick

556
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: up and he would bring them all up to court.

557
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: You know what I mean by I mean just stuff

558
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: he probably wouldn't do in the game because it was

559
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: a little out of character and it was, you know,

560
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: maybe too much of a highlight. But probably about his

561
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: junior year, I knew he would go down as one

562
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: of the best basketball players at Wake. Ever, Um did

563
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: I know he would have such a long NBA career,

564
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, as well as anybody that's a crap shoot man.

565
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: So many times it is where you go, what team

566
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: you get with. I mean, he would have been successful anywhere,

567
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: but getting a chance to go to San Antonio and

568
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: be in one place and that placed being such a

569
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: fit for his personality too, I think contributed to it.

570
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: Um Randolph Children's you were were you? You You were on

571
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: the team when you guys made the run through the

572
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: SEC tournament And who was who he made fall down

573
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: and then he did the finger to get have him

574
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: get up? Jeff mckinnis, Yeah, it was right, was Jeff McGinnis. Yeah, yep, yep.

575
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: And uh you know, I mean, Goli that anybody who's

576
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: a basketball fan, if you had a chance to watch

577
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: that a CEC tournament, you know, he was just unbelievable,

578
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, just doing everything, scoring it

579
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: will Um pretty much unstoppable um and just uh, you

580
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: know that's a that's a grooling you know week. You know,

581
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: I mean you played three straight days, uh and get

582
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: some pretty good freaking players to be able to do that.

583
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: And and with withstand h the pressure and intensity and

584
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: what he put in was was pretty amazing. Why why

585
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: didn't he Why wasn't he a better pro? You know,

586
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: that's a hard question. You know. I think that Randolph

587
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: Um is an extremely talented score. You know, he's probably

588
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: under he's really at the NBA level, he's kind of

589
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: an undersized two guard um maybe maybe, but born before

590
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: his time. Like again yeah, like six two now six

591
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: two now. I don't know if he if he shot

592
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: it well enough from three, But I also think guys

593
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: would shoot it better from three now uh than they

594
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: did going back then. But you know, like as long

595
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: as you can, as long as you can guard, uh,

596
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: if you can score, and you can, you don't have to.

597
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: It's a little bit more positionless. You don't have to

598
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: be as much a one or a two combos. Combos

599
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: seemed to have a longer life now and get more

600
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: minutes now they do. And I mean, obviously somebody comes

601
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: down to where you go and when you get drafted

602
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: buy and I think, you know, obviously the defensive end

603
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: of the court is a big deal at that level. Um.

604
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: But I also think for him, you know, uh, I

605
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: think he went overseas and he was making great money

606
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: and he was able to just be who he is,

607
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: which is a great score. And you know, I didn't

608
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: have a desire to come back and try it again.

609
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know that he ever really after

610
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: his first couple of years even tried to come back

611
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: and make a roster. I think you found a niche

612
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: and was making good money and and decided to have

613
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: a really long overseas career, which a lot of guys do. UM.

614
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: So uh, I mean really, for me, I think the

615
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: only thing I could say is I think he was

616
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: able to stay. You know, you kind of have to change,

617
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: You have to kind have to find a There's not

618
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: many guys who can keep the same role they have

619
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: in high school in college, and guys who have the

620
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: same role in college as an NBA I mean Lebron James. Yeah,

621
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, but most guys have to change their role

622
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: as they go up a level, and some guys do

623
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: it better than others, and some guys decide to have

624
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want to change their role and

625
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: maybe they can't play at that level with that same role.

626
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I average game in high school. I wouldn't

627
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: go do that at wake, you know. And so a

628
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: lot of people ask how I had NBA career. I

629
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, I was. I didn't really

630
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: have to change my role a whole lot of NBA

631
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: from what I had in college. You know, I was

632
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: a ten point a game guy, make open shots, dig in,

633
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: defend guys, compete, um, be a heavy player. And I

634
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: was able to fill a roster spot out for a

635
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: little while, uh in NBA doing that. And I think

636
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: maybe for a guy like Randolph or some other guys

637
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: who've had great college Jim, or for Debt like another example,

638
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, how come he's not in the NBA. Well

639
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: he can go to China and be the same player

640
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: he was at b y U in China. Whereas when

641
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: you play in the NBA. And this is sometimes we

642
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: and we look, we do it in football where guys

643
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: that are running backs, they don't have to do pass protection, right,

644
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: they don't have to do some of those little things

645
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: Whereas when you get in the NFL, like you're gonna

646
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to play special teams if you if

647
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: you're not a superstar, you gonna have to play special teams.

648
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: You can have to be great on pass protection. You know,

649
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to be a gunner on on special

650
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: teams in terms of on punt team in the in

651
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: in in the NBA, or you know all these guys,

652
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, they move around so that they can be

653
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: the best player on their au team, their best player

654
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: in their high school team, they're best player on their

655
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: college team. Then you get to the NBA and like, hey,

656
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: look here's what we want you to do. Okay, we

657
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: want you to play a quarter the minutes that you've

658
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: always played, So you gotta come off the bench and

659
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: be ready. Then you're gonna have to play more efficiently

660
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: than you've ever played in your life. From further out

661
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: in the court, you're shooting the basketball again, better competition,

662
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: and you're playing games every night or every other night.

663
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: Can you do it? And everybody thinks they can until

664
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: they don't hear their name called and they're gonna you know,

665
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: you played ten fifteen minutes night and you get four

666
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: shots and you gotta make two of them. That's really hard. Yeah. Absolutely.

667
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean my last year I played, UM, I played

668
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: in the in the most of the year in the

669
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: D League and for Ashvill Altitude we won the turn

670
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: won the whole league with Joey Meyer former two Paul coaches,

671
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: our coach. I've had from three from the NBA, same

672
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: NBA line with usually because I was playing every night,

673
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: I was getting plenty of shot. You know, my career

674
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 1: NBA three point percentages under. Because it's totally different. You know,

675
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: when you play fifteen or five or ten minutes. It's

676
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: a little different when you're trying to fill a role

677
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: and then make the same number of shots that you

678
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: get when you're playing all the time. Russian LaRue joining

679
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: me here in the All Ball podcast. All right, so

680
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: you go to the NBA. You excuse me, you go

681
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: you go undrafted? Um, you're in that you're you're in

682
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: that summer and didn't shoot before you went to Paris.

683
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: You played for what you played for USBL team? Who

684
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: was the Carolina cart did Yeah, it's it's it was

685
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: just a little USPL team they started. It was a

686
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: summer thing in Winston Salem. You know, I didn't know

687
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: if I was gonna have any kind of career at

688
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: that point. I was like, you know what, I make

689
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: a little money. I get to keep playing for me.

690
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: At that point when I decided just to go basketball,

691
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: I knew I needed to, you know, play as much

692
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: as I could. I got invited to Portsmouth played pretty

693
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: well there actually with the camp with Bulls my first

694
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 1: year out of school. I got invited to camp, and

695
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: uh remember Clarence Gaines with gains and Sony. Clarence was

696
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: a scout for the Bulls and so he had seen

697
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: me a lot being from Winston Salem and invited me

698
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: to camp and they pretty much told me you're not

699
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: gonna make the team, but we want to just take

700
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: a look at you. Well, I got a call for

701
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: this job, a month's replacement job in paris Um basically

702
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: the two days before camp started. So I was actually

703
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: in Chicago for a day and decided to take the job.

704
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: You know, the management the Bulls are like, you know,

705
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: it's great money, you're not gonna make the team, you

706
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: need to take it. I was married at the time,

707
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: already had a kid at the time, and took the job.

708
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: Over there and played for a month. So, um, you

709
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: know I did play in that summer league with USBO

710
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: for about I guess it's about a three month thing

711
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: um leading up to camp. Um. Okay, so you come

712
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: back and the next year you're then you're in the

713
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: c B A in Idaho. Yeah. So actually I went

714
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: over and played a year a month in Paris and then, uh,

715
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: you know it was just a uh said L three

716
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: was injured. I was filling it for him, and then

717
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: three if he went and left, he was in if

718
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: he if he went right, he was not making it. Yeah.

719
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: I played with JR. Reid, former Carolina player, was on

720
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: my team over there, and uh but I had a

721
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: couple offers to stay overse easy. No, I was like,

722
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: I said, married, had a nine month old son, and

723
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: I was like, man, I've been in Paris for a month.

724
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: I've seen you know, I got two English channels seeing

725
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: in the cartoon network. I'm ready to come home and

726
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: watch the MSPN. And came home. But you know, and

727
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: at that point, it was, you know, November one, there's

728
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: no job. You know, all the CBA teams are full.

729
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: So I sat around no December and actually called Claire's

730
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: games in January and said, you know, I'm probably done. Um,

731
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta go get a job. You know,

732
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: I got a family to support. And uh, I went

733
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: down to Charlotte and interviewed with Anderson Consulting on a Friday,

734
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: and I gotta call that Friday night from the cb

735
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: A team in Connecticut, the Connecticut Pride with it was

736
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: actually um. Pat Knight was the assistant there, uh, Bobby

737
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: Knight's son, and uh, so I I was that close

738
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: to being done playing. Um, and so I went to

739
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: finish the year in the c b A and finished

740
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: up the year strong, and the Polls invited me the

741
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: Summer League that next year. Um. And that's how I

742
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: got back with the Bulls that next year. UM. Okay,

743
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: so you walk into the your your first game with

744
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: the Bulls. I mean, this is this is the Bulls,

745
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: the Bulls. This is the best team of Earth with

746
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: the best player ever. Um was it like, I mean,

747
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: you know kind of camp was surreal and I was,

748
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: you know obviously what was just you know it is

749
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: and when you go try it for a team, I

750
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: don't know how it goes. I don't know how I

751
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: know how it is to try and try out for

752
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: a team. Okay, I don't know what it's like to

753
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: try out for that team. Well, for for any NBA team.

754
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: Back when I was playing, they had twelve rosher spot um,

755
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: you know, three injured reserve spots which were foe injured

756
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: reserve spots, and there's twenty guys there, you know, competing

757
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: maybe for one spot if there's even a spot open. Um,

758
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: So who are the other who are who are the

759
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: other who are the other guy? Who are the guys

760
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: that were in the pool that you're competing against. I

761
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: can't remember, to be honest with you, minded that rookie year,

762
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: but Keith Booth was a rookie that year. He was

763
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: their draft pick. Um. He ended up making the team.

764
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: But I played pretty well in camp, and actually I

765
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: got cut the two hours before the flight left for

766
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: the first game. So camp ends and Stephen Kurt been

767
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: banged up a little bit, and they cut me and

768
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: just said, hey, if anything happens, we're gonna call you up.

769
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: And so at that point I decided to stay in

770
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: the States and I went to Idaho to the Idaho Stampede.

771
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: The only time I've ever been drafted was second to

772
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: last and the second to last in the CBA Expansion Draft.

773
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: So went to Idaho. You know, obviously the preseason you're

774
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: with the Bulls. I mean it's like it's like being

775
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: with the Beatles, you know what I mean. We anywhere

776
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: everywhere we went, there were people there, UM, But I

777
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: go out Idaho, have no idea when we get called up.

778
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: I played about actually was there about two weeks and

779
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: then I got a call from UM Jerry Kraus as

780
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: general manager UM, and said that Steve Kerr had gotten

781
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: hurt and had hurt his knee and they were having

782
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: gonna have an m R I later that day that

783
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: if he was capable of playing, and if not, they

784
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: were gonna call me up. Well, we had a game.

785
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: We had the first game of the year that night

786
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: for Idaho. So that was back before cell phone. So

787
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: I went to the game and told my wife to

788
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: stay home and wait to get the call. And she

789
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: she um, she walked in the arena and get me

790
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: comes up right for the game started that I got

791
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: called up and you know, my first game, how how

792
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: did you play? So great? So I debated about just

793
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: taking uniform off and not playing, you know, because I'm thinking,

794
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: don't get hurt, you know, I mean, you just got

795
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: you're getting called it by Chicago bulls. Don't be hurt.

796
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: But that's just not my personality. So I played. Now

797
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: I didn't. I can't say that I've ventured inside the

798
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: three point line a whole lot and wasn't diving on

799
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: the force with any of loose balls. But um, I

800
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: actually great tri of your question. I scored the first

801
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: basket in nightdahost Stampede history. I hit three. Um, but

802
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: I had like twelve points. And uh, you know, after

803
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: the game packed up, the crew headed Chicago, and uh

804
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: joined the team and we were actually just getting ready

805
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: to head off for a West coast road trip. And uh,

806
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: you know, my first game I played in was at

807
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: Phoenix against Jason Kidd and the Phoenix Suns. Man. Alright,

808
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: so what was Mike like? First? First? What did you

809
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: what did you call him? Like when he walks up

810
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: like you called Mike? Michael? Okay, Mike, Yeah, Mike? And uh,

811
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean, in my opinion, the greatest basketball player of

812
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 1: all time. Um, you know, I maybe a little biased

813
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: being from North Carolina and watching him play, but super competitive.

814
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: I think everybody has heard that super competitive, unbelievable, unbelievable

815
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: athletes six six, you know, long arms, big hands, relatively

816
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: small feet for his size. You know, I think he

817
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: wears like a twelve or twelve and a half. I

818
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: could prow shoes. I could borrow Jordan's shoes. I wear twelve.

819
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: I don't quote me on that, but I think he's

820
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: he's you know, he's not like a sixteen. Shoot I mean,

821
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: and uh, just just and I saw it. Obviously I'm

822
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: on the tail end of it, um towards the end,

823
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: but just ultra competitive. You know, You've heard a lot

824
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: of stories, but interesting stories. So you know, we go

825
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: that whole year and that's the year we beat Utah

826
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: in the finals, and so leading up to that, we're

827
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: up three games to one in Chicago, and I think

828
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was on a Friday night. We're

829
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: playing to close out of the finals, and you know

830
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: we're playing in the parade, you know what I mean,

831
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: because we think we're gonna win. Well, block stock them alone.

832
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: They come out and play well. Jordan has like thirty five,

833
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: but we lose at home, and so we have to

834
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: go to Utah and play in game six, and the

835
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: next day having practice obviously before we get on the plane,

836
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 1: and you know, we get out there and Jordan comes

837
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: in and his long cut long uh long pants and

838
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: low cut shoes, and we go about thirty minutes just

839
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: kind of going over some stuff for the game, and

840
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: then all the starters go sit down because they have

841
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: to wait on the media to come in, and the

842
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: rest of us who need to get some work in

843
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: start playing round right on one on one. It's me, Keith, Booth,

844
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: Rand Brown, Scott Burrell, and Scott Burrell and j used to, uh,

845
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, play cards a lot together and talk a

846
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: lot of smacks. So Scotty started, you know, telling saying, yeah, Mike,

847
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: old man, stay over there. You don't want any of this,

848
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: you know, um him kind of running his mouth. Well,

849
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: the media comes in and Scott kept talking, you know,

850
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: and so Mike is too competitive to let it pass.

851
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: And so we're going to like twenty five or something,

852
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: and we probably already were up to like ten or twelve.

853
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: So he comes out and gets in line to play

854
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: one on one with us. And this is in the

855
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: day in between Game five and Game six of the the

856
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: NBA Final, and m starts going out of hard and

857
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and thinking, you know, he's gonna roll

858
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: his ankle on my foot, and then you know it's

859
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: gonna be my fault. We lose. You know, we don't

860
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: win the work Championship because he's too too competitive, is

861
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: sitting and watch us, but has to get out there

862
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: and playing. Of course he comes back and beats us.

863
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: And then Mercy talked smack to Scott with all the

864
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: media watching for the rest of the day, but that's

865
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: just a that's just who he is, Okay, So what

866
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: what what people forget about Game six? Okay? They all

867
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: remember the follow through and and to those of us

868
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: who are paying attention, he was he had a bunch

869
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: of shots that he was short that night, and he

870
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: said one of the reason he held the follow through

871
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: was to kind of to finish that shot. But what

872
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: they forget was, I believe he had bucket, then free throws.

873
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: Then he got the steel, right, he stole the ball

874
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: from Calm alone and then he went one on one,

875
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: so he had like the last I'm gonna say, six

876
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: or eight points uh in a in a in a

877
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: back and forth game, and then had the big steel

878
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: to get you the chance to have the game winning bucket.

879
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: What was what what what? What was your memory of

880
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: that kind of final bunch of possessions in Utah really

881
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: the last couple of possessions of his career. Yeah, to me,

882
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I was sitting on the end zone right there.

883
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: I was literally right right there where karmelone was when

884
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: you stole it, and I think, you know, the game's

885
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: going and and it's it's one of those where it's

886
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: a tight game and you kind of see Jordan's start

887
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: to you can tell when he sort of starts to

888
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: take over. And I just remember when he seeing him

889
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: steal it and then not for a second and anyone

890
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: on our sideline thing time out, you know what I mean,

891
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: Like he's got the ball and it's just like okay,

892
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: here we go, and sure enough, you know, he makes

893
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: the play, which I don't know that anyone was surprised,

894
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: but um, you know, I just remember he actually hit

895
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: on the far end, just um, not really having a

896
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: doubt that he was gonna make it. I mean, just

897
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: knowing knowing that he's he rises to that moment when

898
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: it comes what what is that? What is that moment? Like? Okay,

899
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: so so for people don't remember, like, Okay, this is

900
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: the second time that the Bulls and the Jazz meet

901
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: up in the NBA Finals, right because the year before

902
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: was the Blue Game. The second time it's in Utah places. Nuts,

903
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely nuts. This essentially is the last shot

904
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: of his career, last shot of his career. I know

905
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: he came back with the Wizards, but if anybody remembers

906
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: that was he went into management, he tried to fix

907
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: it himself and whatever. Um, the last shot of his career.

908
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: He's got Brian Russell on him. Who Uh, my dad

909
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: actually coached a couple of times Cleveland High School in

910
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: southern California before before he went to Long Beach State

911
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: and played for Seth Greenberg. Um, what what's that? What's

912
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: that like? To watch it? Like? To me, it's I

913
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: still feel like I see it in slow motion. It

914
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: was on TV. You were there, You're wearing a Bulls uniform.

915
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: When you close your eyes, when you tell your your

916
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: kids about it, what what do you recall? I think

917
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: just the um, it's it's almost like said it's trying

918
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: to remember it. That almost feel like did it a dream?

919
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Because it's it's one of

920
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: those storybook kind of things. I mean, he knew it

921
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: was the last shot too. I mean we had shirts

922
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: made that said laugh dance on them. I mean, everybody

923
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: knew this was gonna be the last year that that run,

924
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: and so just being a part of it, and and

925
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, I'll be at a fly on the wall.

926
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean I was, you know, uh, practicing every day

927
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: and did get a chance that I actually was in

928
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: a suit because I didn't get the dress back then.

929
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: You didn't get the dress if you're on the injured list.

930
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: You didn't get the dress for the for the for

931
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: the playoffs. But but just you know, seeing it happen

932
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: and just all the wives that's flown out there on

933
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: private plane and just you know kind of watching, uh

934
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: the arena falls silent, and just the jubilation and feeling

935
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: it is. It's hard to describe. I mean, any anybody

936
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: who's won a championship kind of knows how you feel

937
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 1: and when something like that happens, But on that stage,

938
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: on that scale, it's kind of kind of otherworldly, you know,

939
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean, because it is you watch those guys from

940
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: Clemson last night, guys that have put four years into

941
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: some of those linemen in tears, right, just because of

942
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: how much work and effort, in time and sweat and

943
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: blood has gone into achieve even that. What was Phil

944
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: Jackson like to play for? Because you know, Phil is

945
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: laid back. I think the one thing that Phil does

946
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: that it's probably is better than any coach I've ever

947
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: played for, is he instills confidencing guys. Um. I remember

948
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: when and he left guys be themselves but also tries

949
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: to help them learn how changing themselves can benefit the team.

950
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: You know. But I remember when I was when I

951
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: got called up, um, and that first time I got

952
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 1: called up, and we were on that West Coast road trip.

953
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: We had a lot of injuries. So I started playing

954
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: quite a bit and we were playing, um, I think

955
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: it was the Clippers, and I end up playing like

956
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: thirty minutes that game, and we were in overtime, and

957
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, ball got past to me when I was open,

958
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: and I probably should have shot it, and I didn't

959
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: shoot it because I'm thinking it's over time. I'm a rookie,

960
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna shoot it. And time out

961
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: gets called, you know, probably thirty forty five seconds later,

962
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: and he goes through the whole spill in the time

963
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: out as we're walking out of guys by the army.

964
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: Because if you're open again like that, I don't ever

965
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: want to see you pass up that shot. And so

966
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: can you imagine me. I'm a you know, nineteen year

967
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: old kid rookie with Chicago Bulls, and the head coach

968
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: kind of gives you that confidence. I think that was

969
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: what he was so good at your nine you're nineteen

970
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: is a rookie. I'm sorry nine I was. I was

971
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: gonna say, I like freshman year at Lake. I wish

972
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: I wish that was nineteen when I was a rookie.

973
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: I like Lebron and getting paid um. But you know,

974
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: when you're a young guy, you know, coaches have that

975
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 1: that ability to be either tell you down or build

976
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: you up, you know what I mean? And I think

977
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: I know that Phil his ability to relate to pro

978
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: guys or any players and challenge them, um to be better,

979
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: but also you know, give them that confidence to be

980
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: their best, you know. And and and then that was

981
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: something differ me. I mean, you made me feel confident

982
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: and that I was there for a reason that I

983
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: deserve to be there. Um. And it gives you the

984
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: freedom to make plays and play your best could Pipping

985
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: was was Pipping? Was? I mean Pipping again? I think

986
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: was was just kind of one of those guys. Um

987
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: he would have been. He's one of the guys have

988
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 1: been successful in any year and he played in UM

989
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: and people forget he's what six nine? I mean, people

990
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: forget Tony Kuk coach was six ten. I mean we

991
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: had six ten, six nine guys that played like guards

992
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: and Pipping was one of those guys that. Obviously, I

993
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: think having Michael helped him grow as a player, especially

994
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: as a young player probably and be able to develop

995
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: without a lot of stress. But just, um, you know

996
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: another guy that I saw not just score but just

997
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: do so many things, guard every position. Just about um,

998
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: um super you know, intelligent player, hard worker, Um you know,

999
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: unbelievable player. How did you You and Dennis Rodman are

1000
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: about as polar opposite in terms of of um, maybe

1001
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: faith and how you live your life? Like what what

1002
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: what was the Dennis your Dennis Rodman experienced? Like? Um?

1003
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: Dennis was a quiet guy, hard worker. I think the

1004
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: great things about sports is people of different like you said,

1005
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: whose lives can be totally different. When when you come

1006
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: together for that kind of common that the common goal

1007
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: and the kind of common sweat goes into winning games.

1008
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: You sort of have that that automatic sort of connector. Um.

1009
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: But you know, he came and did his work, and

1010
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 1: he was I mean he always in the weight room

1011
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: when he wasn't at practice. Um, you know, he was

1012
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: occasionally a little a little party of time to come

1013
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 1: into practice and uh the great So my my best

1014
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: Dennis Robbin story is you know, the Bulls do Secret

1015
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: Santa every year, so you know, you draw a name

1016
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: and you got somebody's name, and I think back then

1017
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: the minimum that the amount was like five dollars was

1018
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: your with your Christmas gift. So I pulled Dennis Robman's

1019
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: name for Secret Santa for Christmas. So you know, what

1020
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: do you get Dennis Robin for Secret Santa for Christmas?

1021
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what that's the question for the ages.

1022
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: I got him a uh, solid silver money clip with

1023
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: his daughter's name engraped on it um because he had

1024
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: a daughter that he was very fond of. So but

1025
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: again another guy that you talk about a little bit

1026
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: of a specialist obviously, but super intelligent player. I mean,

1027
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean understands the game and that's why he fit

1028
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: into the triangle. So well, um, really really bright player,

1029
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: quiet guy and never said a whole lot um but

1030
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: just um awesome player. Um, you know, you know it's

1031
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. The Secret Santa thing reminds me

1032
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: of a story. Um, I think Brent Price told me.

1033
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: The story I think was I think it was Brent

1034
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: Brent Price. He was with the Jazz and the Jazz

1035
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: had what was the dude Dame, the big dog that

1036
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: they had. His nickname was Big No No No, Big

1037
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: Dog shooting. He wore the goggles he played on on

1038
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:55,479
Speaker 1: that UTUBH team Antoine Car and and Antoine Car. So, Um,

1039
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: they were going on a road trip. This is like

1040
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: late nineties right there, going on a road trip, and uh,

1041
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: they get all their per diem. They get a couple

1042
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: of hundred bucks in per diem because they're gonna be

1043
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: gone for like ten eleven days, right, so they get

1044
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: like six hundred bucks in per d M whatever was

1045
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: seven hundred bucks in predum. And their first stop on

1046
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: the road, they're like in Minnesota, and they both decided

1047
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: they want to go to Best Buy and so he um,

1048
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: Brent I remember told me like, yeah, I walked up

1049
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: to the counter because I wanted to buy like old

1050
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: discman and some headphones, and it was like, you know

1051
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: everything all in I needed some cash from big Dogs.

1052
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: We both break out envelopes of cash. Right, here's a

1053
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: six ft nine black dude with with glass with Oakley's

1054
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: on and we're both exchanging like hundreds of hundreds of dollars.

1055
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: But again, it's it's more the it's it's more than

1056
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: like what what what appears in stereotypes in the outside

1057
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: and the inside is completely different or in the reality

1058
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: of it. And Dennis Robbins in a perfect example that

1059
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: a lot of that's media driven and he was kind

1060
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: of ahead of the curve, and some of it's real, right,

1061
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: like how he lived his personal life. He was kind

1062
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: of a wild guy, but in terms of doing his

1063
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: job and doing his work like that. Dude was a

1064
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: freak athlete, could switch and guard any position. People forget

1065
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: when he was the worm, he was the best defensive

1066
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: player in the league, and then he made himself into

1067
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: the best rebounder in the league and didn't take shots

1068
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: that he couldn't make, and that's why he was a

1069
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: great teammate, right, yeah, for sure. And and that's you

1070
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: talk about like we said earlier, and you know, guys

1071
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: knowing they're finding a role in the niche that Ben

1072
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: Wallace is the world who you know, find a way

1073
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: to make a make a career. Okay, so you get

1074
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 1: done playing and you played. Remind me of the story

1075
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: in Russia because we're played against Shillon Russia. We hung

1076
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: out a couple of times. I remember you telling me

1077
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: that you kept getting pulled over on the way to

1078
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: practice because you had a baseball hat on. Is that right? Well,

1079
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: so you know you played in Russia, so you know

1080
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: it's a different, different culture altogether. And uh, you know

1081
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: in in Moscow where we were, I was playing with

1082
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: CSK Central Supports Club of the Army with you know,

1083
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: the main club, and uh, in Moscow, they have a

1084
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: lot of policemen standing on corners, you know, and they

1085
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: just kind of have a billy stick and they just

1086
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: waved you over for for why, I don't, I don't know,

1087
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 1: but I had gotten pulled over a couple of times

1088
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: when they just waved me over. I speak no Russian whatsoever.

1089
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: Um And and they would start, you know, talking and

1090
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: rushing and telling me something, and I would I'd have

1091
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: to call the guy on the team who speaks a

1092
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: little bit of English and be like, hey, can you

1093
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: talk to this police. Obvily, we had an assistant John

1094
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: managers spoke English, and he would talk to him and

1095
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: he would get back on the one and be like,

1096
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: looky him three hundred roubles and they'll let you go.

1097
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: You know, which is what like to two bucks? Maybe

1098
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. And so after that had happened a

1099
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: few times, finally one day I got stopped. I didn't

1100
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: have my passport um and you know, the guys threatened

1101
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: into like take me to jail and all this kind

1102
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: of stuff. So the team actually end up giving me

1103
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: a card that had my picture on it, that had

1104
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: the Central Sports called the Army logo that I called

1105
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: my get out of jail free card. So when I

1106
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,399
Speaker 1: if I got pulled over somebody and I just show

1107
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: it to the police, they would let me go. So,

1108
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: but it's a different world over there. You know you've

1109
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: been there. It's it's crazy over there. I thought they

1110
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: told you to stop bringing a baseball hat because that's

1111
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: how they knew you were an American. No, well, I

1112
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: probably I mean I may have, but they one of

1113
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: the things the uh, the guy who was our GM

1114
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 1: had said, I think it was like the second time

1115
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: I got pulled over, I was like, why do I

1116
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: keep getting stopped? He said, you might be driving too slow? Yeah,

1117
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 1: because those those dudes would have like a blue light

1118
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: in the top of their car, just weaving around people.

1119
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: And there are no there are no rules there, right,

1120
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 1: it's just survival, survival of the fittest. Yeah. Yeah. And

1121
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: and three Mercedes pull up, one Glade wagon, two studay

1122
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: hands one one one of them's got a light on

1123
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: the car, and you know, fifteen guys get out of

1124
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: the cars and three of them going the restaurant. The

1125
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: other twelve stand by the cars. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's

1126
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: actually what our what our owner was like. You'd come

1127
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: in with a uh with handcuffs, handcuff on his wrist

1128
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: and a handcuff on his When we beat you guys,

1129
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: it was it was, it was. It was a glorious

1130
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: victory for our team. And we got under the table,

1131
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: under the table cash bonuses. Oh yeah, yeah, we we

1132
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: got When we got off the plane from the we

1133
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: went to the Final four, we wanted to get to

1134
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: make it to the European finals, or we were handed

1135
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: envelopes as we stepped off the plane. Yeah, it's a wild,

1136
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: wild world. You get done playing and then once you

1137
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: you you went and coach at Greensboro College for a year,

1138
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: didn't you? I did? I did? I wash. I was thirty. Um,

1139
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: My I had spent I had spent the lad that

1140
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: year we won the d League championship, and I had

1141
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: actually played with Golden State with Eric Musselman for a

1142
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: for a ten day. Um. I had some offers overseas,

1143
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: but my daughter, my fourth child, was gonna be born

1144
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: in August, and Greensboro called me looking for a coach

1145
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: and as a chance to try coaching without having to

1146
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: move my family. Um, And so I jumped in and

1147
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: did that for a year. From that experience, uh, you know,

1148
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: coaching is hard. I think a lot of people you

1149
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: know coaching is hard, and uh, um, I think that

1150
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: any time you you get in charge of of young

1151
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: men and trying to get egos and people to mold together.

1152
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: But I also learned that I love it. Um. I

1153
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: did enjoy it. Um. But it was also I kind

1154
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: of do pretty quickly. That wasn't the level I wanted

1155
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: to stay at UM, and so I actually he took

1156
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: a move and went to a you know, private school

1157
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: to be the athletic director and run a basketball academy

1158
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: there from there. Okay, So then in oh nine you

1159
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: went to work for didn't you go work for Dino

1160
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: at at at Wagon Lake? I did? I did? I

1161
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: went back there. I went to Side Country Day, was

1162
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: a private school locally for about four years. And then

1163
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: when Pat Kelsey left in the staff position on his

1164
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: staff opened up, I interviewed and came on board with

1165
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: him there at not And then you worked for Buzz

1166
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: as well. Why didn't work? Why didn't it work with Buzz?

1167
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: Because Buzz is a super bright guy who was successful

1168
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: at air Force and he's he's a very well regarded

1169
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: NBA assistant. I had my own kind of beliefs as

1170
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: to why it didn't work. But you were there, you

1171
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,479
Speaker 1: were boots on the ground. Why didn't work for the Well?

1172
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,479
Speaker 1: I think first of all, when he the year he came,

1173
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I I was on the staff before and

1174
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: not lucky enough to stay around UM. You know, we

1175
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: had a supposed the top twenty recruiting class that that

1176
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: really was not as good as projected um, and and

1177
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 1: not a some guys that characterized maybe weren't the best

1178
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: fit and work ethic wise for the best fit, especially

1179
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 1: for coach bus deelic style. And so you know, here's

1180
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: year one. You know, we win two weeks into practice.

1181
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: I came home to my wife, said we'll be lucky

1182
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: to win ten games, and we won nine. You know, UM,

1183
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: because I just knew weren't talented enough, we didn't have

1184
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: the right fit. And so I think the first year

1185
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: hurt really really bad because that class had so much

1186
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: hype and then we struggled so much. UM. And then

1187
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: you kind of have to start trying to recover from

1188
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: that with recruiting, and we got better in year two,

1189
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: but by then there was so much negativity. UM. I'm

1190
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: sure you remember a lot of the stuff that was

1191
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: going on. UM. It made it really really hard for

1192
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: us to do our jobs because of all the negativity.

1193
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: What's what's what's interesting about that to me is and

1194
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: you know, look, I know you. I can't tell you.

1195
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: I know you like keep in touch every day, but

1196
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: I also know you as an incredibly positive person, and

1197
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: it's one thing to have that sort of negativity surrounding

1198
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: the program. Obviously, you know, you have the death of

1199
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: Skip and then you know, do you know a lot

1200
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: of people around the program told me the Dino wasn't

1201
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: given the right opportunity. You know that that that that

1202
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: that that was the best the program was doing. Then

1203
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: you're bringing a buzz, and buzz can be buzz can

1204
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: be a little negative. What what's that like for you emotionally? Right?

1205
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: You've got four kids, this is a school you love

1206
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: and a job that you you really want and a

1207
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: sport that you love. But all that negativity going to work?

1208
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: What's that like for you? Well, you know, it's hard.

1209
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: I mean it. Losing is hard anyway you look at it.

1210
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: I mean losing it. Uh, you know, I don't like

1211
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: losing a checkers much less losing a lot of games

1212
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: at my alma Boter and I think, uh, we were

1213
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: all really surprised at Dino got let go. Um. You know,

1214
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: I really felt like that maybe wasn't the time to

1215
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: do that. Um, but that's not you know, I'm not

1216
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: the a d and I'm not the person in charge. Um.

1217
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: But um, you know, you know, because you you've been

1218
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: in it, and you're you've got family who's been in it,

1219
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 1: how much you know, effort and time and sweat and

1220
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: phone calls and how many hours going into college coaching.

1221
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: And so I did that for my alma mater because

1222
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 1: of one because I love my alma mater, but too

1223
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 1: because I love basketball, and three because I like to win.

1224
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: And so when you know you're losing, Um, it's it's

1225
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: bad enough to lose, its worst to lose when you're

1226
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: at your alma mater, a place you really love, and

1227
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: then it takes a toll. It takes a toll. Okay,

1228
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: so four years of my life for sure. So yeah,

1229
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: but so then then Danny comes in and he doesn't

1230
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,479
Speaker 1: retain you, like this is your alma mater. You're You're

1231
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: like arguably the greatest all around athletes the history of

1232
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: your alma mater. You're nothing but a loyal soldier. Like

1233
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: no one has ever and ever had anything bad to

1234
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: say about you. Um, you go home, you got four kids,

1235
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: your wife, Well, what do you remember about that experience? Well,

1236
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean it was crushing at the time. I mean,

1237
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: my wife's actually a really time to writer. She wrote

1238
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: a nice thing on that I have online about how

1239
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: you know basketball kind of become an idol for us,

1240
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: and it was something that because you have to it

1241
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: has to be, you know, at that level, it has

1242
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: to be like all encompassing. It has to be. And um,

1243
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: at first you're hurt, um, and then you're and you're

1244
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: kind of like man. But to be honest with you,

1245
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: looking back now, the best thing that ever happened to me,

1246
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's well because I think I gotta.

1247
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm able to enjoy my life a little

1248
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: bit better now. Um. You know, I like said, I'm

1249
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: I think I'm a pretty positive guy, and I'm a

1250
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: hard worker and I put in my time and all

1251
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and you know, yeah, I mean

1252
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: if you'd asked me five six years ago, was head

1253
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: coaching Awake my dream job? I probably would have told

1254
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: you yeah. You know, Um, but there's a there's a

1255
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: there's a life that goes with that, and I want

1256
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: him get into the bad side of that business, which

1257
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: we all know is there evidenced by the trials that

1258
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm able to step away from now and I can

1259
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, something I love so much like basketball and

1260
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: even Wake when it's so negative, like with losing those games.

1261
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: I mean a part of it. You don't want to

1262
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: that don't want that and what that doesn't that is

1263
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: and what you want that memory to be, you know

1264
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, And able to get away from that

1265
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: and enjoy it and just be like, Okay, that's not

1266
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: My life's not defined by that anymo. By that, you

1267
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I can I can move on

1268
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: and be successful in business to some of else. See

1269
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: my kids play, I mean, see my kids play in

1270
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: high school. I got to coach my three, my two

1271
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: boys in high school. I mean, I wouldn't change that

1272
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: for the world. So you get to coach your your

1273
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: boys in high school and you get do you take

1274
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: over the program? Um? What what was that like? Considering

1275
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: all the experiences that you've been through now you're coaching

1276
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,919
Speaker 1: your boys in high school? What was it like? Yeah,

1277
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: it was awesome but hard at the same time. Um,

1278
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's we're a competitive family and I'm a

1279
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: competitive dude. And um, you know, I joke with people

1280
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: off off a lot of times. I lose my religion

1281
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: coaching faster than anything else I do. You know, it's

1282
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: just because I'm passionate about it and I love it,

1283
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: and um, you know, Mark Pope coach out at Utah Valley.

1284
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: One of the things he and I, he and I

1285
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: are close, and um, I called him asked his advice

1286
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: for I took the job as the way I think is, man,

1287
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: you have to do it because it's gonna be really,

1288
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: really hard. Some great stuff happened. Yeah, and then somebody

1289
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: else who coached your kid, and then it's even harder. Yeah. Yeah,

1290
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: And so I kind of I knew that opportunity to

1291
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: come along every time I was working for a company

1292
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,919
Speaker 1: Dario Restaurants, that was I was blessed enough that they said, yeah,

1293
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: I take the time to do that on the side,

1294
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: and uh, I mean we struggled a little more. We struggled.

1295
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: My first year we were six sixteen games. But then

1296
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, year two we we kind of had a

1297
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: special year. Cooper senior year we went twenty seven and three. Um,

1298
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: and then we graduated some and um my last year there, Maverick,

1299
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: my younger son was hurt all year with a with

1300
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: a um um yeah, yeah, he tore a LABELM in

1301
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: his hip and so he was trying to play on it.

1302
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: And then also we struggled. But it's one of those

1303
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: things I don't. I can't get that time back. Um,

1304
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 1: So I'm glad I had it with him. That's pretty awesome. UM.

1305
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: I do want to ask you about, you know, the

1306
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: death of your son, um, because you guys have been

1307
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: very open about it, and it's in and and the

1308
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: ups and downs of your professional career as a player,

1309
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: the ups and downs of your coaching career. Um you

1310
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: think those are gonna be Hey, look and it's like

1311
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: any sudden who I played for you used to tell

1312
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: us we you know, at a miserable practice, like if

1313
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: this is the hardest thing in your life, you're gonna

1314
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: have a hell of a life, right. Um. Uh. For

1315
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 1: people who don't know about your son, he was nine

1316
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: nineteen years old, right, ye, and Riley and he's uh

1317
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: and um what happened. Passed away in a car accident

1318
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: in Sound September nine fifteen. He was actually up in Richmond,

1319
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: had taken his girlf into the airport early in the

1320
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: morning and then uh, foggy morning and didn't see a

1321
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 1: curve and you know, I didn't have a seatbelt on.

1322
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: And you know, it's a it's a it's a hard thing.

1323
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,919
Speaker 1: It's it's one of the things you you don't wish

1324
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: one your worst enemy. And also to his whole career

1325
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: in high school is when I was awake, and that

1326
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: makes and I missed a lot of that, so you

1327
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 1: missed that. But it's like you said, you go through

1328
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,959
Speaker 1: a lot as a player and even as a coach

1329
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: losing games and you think, man, this is terrible, right,

1330
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: and you gnash your teeth and you think it's the

1331
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: end of the world, and then something like this happens.

1332
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: You think, you know, m no, I can't think of

1333
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: anything worse, you know, And like I said, I wouldn't

1334
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: worse some more worst enemy. But um, it's it's you know,

1335
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: we get up every day and move forward and uh

1336
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: and with the grace of God and and and count

1337
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: our blessings that we still have three great kids with us.

1338
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: How do you how do you get up and be

1339
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: who you are and god fearing man who wants the

1340
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: leader of your family? You know, you have your wife

1341
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: and you guys have been together since high school. Like

1342
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: what is the if you if you were to give

1343
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: anybody advice going through a similar kind of tough time,

1344
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: and then how I just I don't even know how

1345
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: you get up out of bed? I don't. I don't.

1346
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: I look at I knew I was gonna talk to

1347
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: you today. And my son's nine years old. He's like, hey, Dad,

1348
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: will you lay lay next to mean? I know I

1349
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: don't like lay next them because I always fall asleep

1350
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: in his room and I wake up in the middle

1351
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,479
Speaker 1: of the night and it's hard to go back to sleep.

1352
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: But then I was thinking, like you know that, like,

1353
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: like you said, you never get those days back. How

1354
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: how do you get up out of bed? Well, I mean,

1355
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 1: I think you do it for your the people you

1356
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: have left, you know, and and and with the hope

1357
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 1: that you know you're gonna see him again one day. Um,

1358
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: I think you you you live the best life you

1359
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: can here open that you know, knowing that one day

1360
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna we're gonna be reunited. And for me too,

1361
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: I think for my wife it's it's we owe it

1362
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: to our kids that we still have one. And and

1363
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: I think that you, Um, I know that it's it's

1364
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: for people going through it now, I mean, it's it's indescribable.

1365
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: I can't, you can't. There's nothing people can say, there's

1366
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: nothing that you can do. You know, you gotta just

1367
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: try to try to find the hope to hold on

1368
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: to and UH focus on for me and with you know,

1369
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: I don't work or so I worked, you know. I

1370
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: mean I probably work more than I should, you know,

1371
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 1: during that time, but uh I worked and and the

1372
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: other thing I would say is that with your kids. Um,

1373
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, you made an interesting comment about, you know,

1374
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: the ups and downs of of athletics, for example, like basketball.

1375
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: I have two boys who are who are really good

1376
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: high school players who had opportunity to play in college

1377
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: and decided not to play basketball in college. And I

1378
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: think a lot of the reason they didn't is because

1379
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: because of the so much of the negative you experience

1380
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 1: when you lose. You know that the highs of winning

1381
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 1: after you've been through something that we've gone through, you

1382
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: don't want to put yourself through the negatives. You know

1383
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 1: what I mean? You kind of like, you know what,

1384
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: I just want to. I want to I want to

1385
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,479
Speaker 1: find something to hold on too. I wanna, I wanna

1386
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:41,439
Speaker 1: not an easy life, but I don't I don't need

1387
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: the headache and the strife that comes with, you know,

1388
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: beating my head against the wall and putting in the

1389
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 1: time I need to put in because you know, I've seen.

1390
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: I've seen things that other people haven't seen, to experience

1391
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: things other people hadn't experienced. Um. You mentioned coaching Cooper

1392
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: and coaching mav um. Okay, so here's another question shonna

1393
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: have for you coaching. How do you coach your kids?

1394
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: How do you how do you do how do you

1395
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: how do you do it with without um without resentment?

1396
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: You know, you don't want them to resent you, and

1397
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: yet you you know them and you want to get

1398
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: the most out of them, and you know what they have,

1399
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: Like no one believes in their kid like the father,

1400
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: and especially a guy like you who's played at the

1401
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: highest level, so you know all the different things it's

1402
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: gonna take. How do you do it? Like I said,

1403
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: it's not easy, you know, uh. Um. Greg McDermott um

1404
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: I had asked him one day on the Recruiting show,

1405
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: He's like, it's it's easy if your if your kid

1406
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: is clearly the best or clearly the worst, anywhere in between,

1407
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 1: it's really hard, you know. So um you for me,

1408
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: we I tried really hard to be coach at coach

1409
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: at practice, and to be dead at home. Um. That's

1410
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: not easy because you know, as you know, when your

1411
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: kids wait for somebody else. You get that you coach

1412
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: them at home, and you know, you py come home

1413
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: and you're like, what this would you done? So I

1414
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: tried to get all that out in practice, um, and

1415
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: tried to get all that out from the court so

1416
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: that when we were home we could just be just

1417
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: being you know, Is that that is that doable? No?

1418
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: It's not doable. No, absolutely not for anybody who's competitive,

1419
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: it's not, um, because you mean, just like you would

1420
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: have you're his normal dad and he's coached by somebody else,

1421
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 1: you still want to you want to have dad feedback

1422
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 1: into the conversation versus coach feedback, because they're two different things.

1423
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 1: You know, there're two different things. And uh for us, Uh,

1424
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: because was it the right thing? I don't know. Um,

1425
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 1: could someone else have done a better job for him

1426
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 1: than I did in high school? I know we had

1427
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: some great positive experiences, UM, but it's hard. I mean

1428
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 1: there were there were there were times where um, I

1429
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: wanted to quit. They wanted to quit just because uh,

1430
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, we're both competive, we're all competitive. And my

1431
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 1: wife I didn't want to come to the game, you know,

1432
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: because she couldn't watch me yell at him anymore. I

1433
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 1: had that. I had that last year, and I've I've

1434
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 1: been much better this year. She's like, I can't go,

1435
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: I can't got. Well, it's as you know, I mean,

1436
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: it's it's as hard as a parent, um. Total, this

1437
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: one as hard as a parent to watch your kids fail. Um.

1438
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: And then when you have to coach them and you're

1439
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: the one teaching them, it makes it even harder. Um.

1440
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: But I think I did a pretty good job of

1441
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: treating them. I really trying hard to treat them, just

1442
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 1: like what anybody else, you know, really think about everything

1443
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: I said. Um, if anything, I made them more harder

1444
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: than everybody else, and I'd hire expectation expectations of them

1445
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: than I did anybody else. So they probably had it tougher, um,

1446
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 1: because you know, I probably I chewed them with some

1447
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: aggressive counseling much more than I would anybody else. Put

1448
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 1: it that way. Yeah, uh. I I've made this point

1449
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, and there's a good amount

1450
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: of people who who disagree with me. My belief is

1451
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: in terms of paying college athletes, like, look, the benefit

1452
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 1: you're going to receive from the promotion you get as

1453
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: a college athlete, you're going to see for the rest

1454
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: of your lifetime. I've EXPI anesty because I'm reasonable enough

1455
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: to believe to know that though I made some money

1456
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: playing basketball, and I'm not sure I ever reached my potential,

1457
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: both in college and as a pro, I was able

1458
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: to create kind of a name, image and likeness for

1459
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: myself on the back of Oklahoma State that I never

1460
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 1: would otherwise. Now, you were a great athlete across the

1461
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 1: board and could have pursued professional avenues potentially in football,

1462
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,839
Speaker 1: did in basketball, but you worked for Dario. Okay, you

1463
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: you have a you have a really good job, and

1464
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 1: like you said, you've had other opportunities outside of sports.

1465
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,520
Speaker 1: How much has your time in sports at Wake benefited

1466
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: you in terms of your ability outside of the sport

1467
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: of basketball. Well, I mean, I think it's invaluable, and

1468
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: I think that's why athletes still still go choose to

1469
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: go to college, especially in the higher profile sports, like

1470
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: I mean, basketball is the one. Football Obviously, a lot

1471
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: of kids know they're not ready to do right out

1472
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: of high school, so they go to football, and nobody

1473
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: really is up in arms about you know that, But

1474
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: because that's the avenue those guys have to develop and

1475
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 1: become professional players. Um, but you you mentioned it about

1476
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: pigging back on what you had at Oklahoma State. You know,

1477
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 1: right now, a high school kid can go out of

1478
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 1: high school and go play in the D League and

1479
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,560
Speaker 1: get paid a pretty decent salary and play basketball professionally,

1480
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 1: right and develop themselves and to try to become a professional. Now,

1481
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: why don't they do it? Because they know they can

1482
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: go to Duke or Kentucky and get every get the

1483
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: best meals, the best training, the best travel, millions of

1484
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: people automatically in their fan base and on their team

1485
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: because they go to that university. Now, you could argue

1486
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 1: that that that fan base is built up over time

1487
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 1: because of the athletes that have played there. But you know,

1488
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 1: people root for Carolina every year no matter who's who's

1489
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: putting on the Carolina uniform. Um, they're not gonna stop

1490
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 1: rooting for Carolina because of the numbers change. You know.

1491
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: And those guys who go to Carolina or Duke or

1492
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 1: Away crol Coloma stay eight. You know, they make a

1493
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 1: decision right out of high school that is better for

1494
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 1: their personal brand and their security as an athlete to

1495
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 1: go to college. Because if you go to college and

1496
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: you don't play well your freshman year and you were

1497
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: supposed to be a lot to pick. You stay in

1498
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 1: college and they keep they keep bringing you along until

1499
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: you're ready to go get paid millions. You know, you

1500
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: go to the D League and you don't play well

1501
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 1: well and you have plus you have a family, right,

1502
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 1: you have a basketball family to to to fall back on.

1503
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 1: And and look, it's obviously been hard for you because

1504
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 1: the guy that you played for is no longer there, right,

1505
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: and and so it's it's different, but you still those

1506
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 1: guys that you played with, played for, those are your family.

1507
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: In addition to the university, which, however much it helps you,

1508
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: it's gonna help you a whole hell of a lot more.

1509
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,640
Speaker 1: It's gonna help some regular, regular student. And if you

1510
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 1: don't have if you went to the G League or

1511
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: you went straight to pros, like I don't even know

1512
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 1: what you do, you gotta you gotta, you gotta ask

1513
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: the people who you played for professionally for a job

1514
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 1: or for advice, and their advice is gonna be dude,

1515
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 1: you gotta go back to college and get a degree,

1516
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: because very few people get hired without a degree. Yeah, absolutely,

1517
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 1: And I think you look at the um you know,

1518
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 1: obviously the amount of athletes that are that are Yeah,

1519
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: there's some guys who are making are multimillion dollar stars

1520
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 1: and they're gonna gonna be NBA players or NFL players

1521
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 1: or tennis stars or whether the case may be. But

1522
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, the vast majority of them are gonna hopefully

1523
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: get a degree, uh and fall back on their contacts

1524
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: and develop and the the the career offices at the

1525
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: schools to help them get a get a job. I mean,

1526
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 1: think about I know, you hear stories all the time

1527
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 1: a lot of guys who end up going on and

1528
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: getting jobs who are athletes. Um, you know, it's an

1529
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: alumni at the university who who who gave him the job,

1530
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, or got him in the door, or whatever

1531
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 1: the case may be. You know, I don't disagree that

1532
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 1: they should get and they already get paid. And I

1533
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:47,760
Speaker 1: know some people don't get paid. They already get a stipend. Um,

1534
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: they're getting paid. Um My dad played the old dominion

1535
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 1: back in the day, and they used to get a

1536
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 1: laundry money back then. They used to get a little

1537
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 1: bit of spending money on the side. And um, but

1538
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of a hard door to open because I

1539
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: don't know where it stopped. Um with that, um, you know,

1540
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 1: and they say, well I can what about my likeness

1541
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 1: use my likeness outside? Well, okay, you know what I mean.

1542
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 1: You want to go sell your autograph how you know,

1543
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: then you can't police you know, and alumni giving you

1544
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: a million dollars for your autographs if they want to,

1545
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: because you're in because you go to Alabama. So I'm

1546
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 1: a big believer. If you want to be a professional,

1547
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: then go professional. And if you want to be an

1548
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 1: athlete in college student athlete, go to go to college. Um.

1549
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:26,639
Speaker 1: Of course I would be in favor of them putting

1550
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: the baseball rule in for basketball as well, just like

1551
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: they do for football. Last thing, last thing, You've been

1552
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 1: through a lot, uh personally professionally. I know you still

1553
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: love basketball, Basketball still very much in your heart. You

1554
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: mentioned Eric Musselman, who of course you played for for

1555
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 1: a short period time. You mentioned you know Steve Kerr.

1556
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: Of course, Um, you have connections in this sport. Will

1557
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: you Will you ever get back in I don't know,

1558
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I might one day. Um, you know,

1559
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: right now, I've got a daughter who's a freshman volleyball

1560
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 1: player at West forn Sythe So one reason I got

1561
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 1: out of coaching and I got into what I'm doing

1562
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 1: now is I just didn't had opportunities. I just didn't

1563
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 1: want to move my family. Um. I grew up here,

1564
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: my wife's family grew up here. Um maybe once my

1565
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: daughter's out of high school, I might consider it. But

1566
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: I really enjoy what I'm doing. I'm working with a

1567
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: great company. We're you know, we're growing, and we're very

1568
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 1: successful in what we do here, um locally, So I'm

1569
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: enjoying it right now. You know, I don't. I don't

1570
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 1: miss um, you know, the late night film session going

1571
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,759
Speaker 1: to figure out how we couldn't guard the pick and roll. Okay,

1572
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: but also but I also missed the competitiveness as well. Okay,

1573
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 1: I said that last thing I lied. Uh, your six

1574
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: foot to guard from Greensburg, North Carolina. You're obviously a

1575
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 1: very good athlete, very competitive. If you were going to

1576
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 1: give advice to a kid and say this is how

1577
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: you how do you make it? Whatever level it is,

1578
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: this is how do you? How do you make it?

1579
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 1: What's what's the two or three things that somebody should

1580
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: legitimately focus on in terms of how do I make it?

1581
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 1: Because how do I make it? It's the same in

1582
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:57,719
Speaker 1: high school, is the same in college, is the same

1583
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: as a professional how do I make it? There's those

1584
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:08,799
Speaker 1: substitute for work. UM. I think you know I've always

1585
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 1: there was a good somebody to put a good thing up.

1586
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 1: Bob Huggins had the other day. But you know you

1587
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: can't cheat the game. UM. Putting in the work is one,

1588
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: but also UM because when you put into work, you believe,

1589
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: you'll develop a belief in yourself. I'm a blue believer,

1590
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 1: and you gotta believe in yourself for everybody else will

1591
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 1: believe in you. And putting in the work, and I

1592
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,799
Speaker 1: just think a lot of times, UH, players don't understand

1593
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: the amount of work it really takes UM to be

1594
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: successful and to be good at something at the level

1595
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: you have to be at to play in college or

1596
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: even be on your high school team. And the next

1597
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 1: thing I will say is focus on where you're at.

1598
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 1: If you're an eighth grader, be the best middle school

1599
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: player you can be, and then if you're a really

1600
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 1: good middle school player, then you'll go to high school.

1601
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, I think too many times guys look at

1602
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: down the road and say, Okay, they're looking at what

1603
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 1: Lebron's doing or this and that. You know, just focus

1604
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: home being you know, today, being the best practice, being

1605
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: the best player at practice day, and then be the

1606
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:07,599
Speaker 1: best player practice to mar and then when the game

1607
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: comes to you the best player on the court. And

1608
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: if you'll keep doing that day in the day out,

1609
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: and then it work to be the best that day,

1610
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: then good things will happen. Hey, man, I wish you

1611
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: and your family nothing but blessings. I really appreciate you

1612
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 1: joining me, and I think I think your words and

1613
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 1: your your life experience gonna help a lot of people.

1614
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for being our guest on EL ball. All right,

1615
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Man. Let's welcome to a guy who's

1616
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 1: a really really talented writer, uh, analyst, reporter, like he

1617
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 1: does a little bit of everything. Like I wouldn't if

1618
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 1: I characterized him as a writer. That'd be kind of

1619
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 1: classically unfair, right, because you see him on TV, if

1620
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,560
Speaker 1: you're in New York, if you know anything about basketball,

1621
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 1: you read Zack's blog, um, whether it's on Twitter or

1622
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:51,720
Speaker 1: you just go right to the website. He's Adams A.

1623
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: Gory joins us else Rights for the New York Times,

1624
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: you see him on s n Y in New York

1625
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 1: and ZA. I want to start with a couple of things.

1626
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,840
Speaker 1: I saw St. John's lose to go over last night

1627
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 1: at the time of this recording. And look, I obviously

1628
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 1: they got screwed in that Seaton Hall game. Although they

1629
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,679
Speaker 1: miss made free throws, it wouldn't have mattered. But you've

1630
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 1: seen kind of the evolution of this Chris Mullen team. First,

1631
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: when Mully got the job, did you think it would work? Yeah,

1632
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: First of all, facts for having me on Doug. I

1633
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: was at that center and pavilion at Bill and Over

1634
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 1: last night for the first time in that place. Is

1635
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 1: really nice. I don't know if you've been there. I have,

1636
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: I have not been since they've they've redone it obviously

1637
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 1: this year. I like that they kept to the same size.

1638
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:35,240
Speaker 1: It's not you know, they didn't they didn't add seats,

1639
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,679
Speaker 1: which is the mistake that so many people make. But okay,

1640
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 1: so so take me back, Like, I'm sure I could

1641
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 1: search on Twitter and try and find what you wrote

1642
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: when Mully got the job. Mully gets the job, what

1643
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: was your immediate reaction? Yeah, I mean, I guess I

1644
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 1: think I was probably a little dubious. You know, he

1645
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: hadn't coached before. He certainly hadn't coached in college before.

1646
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 1: You know, it all comes down to recruiting anytime you

1647
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:01,439
Speaker 1: bring in a new coach and you know who their

1648
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 1: staff is gonna be, what kind of players they're gonna be.

1649
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 1: The press conference was kind of funny because there was

1650
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, older people, people in their fifties, sixties, seventies,

1651
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: who I think thought Chris Mallen was gonna snap his

1652
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: fingers and it was gonna be night once again, and

1653
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: Thank Johnson's gonna go back to the Final four. So

1654
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,599
Speaker 1: I think I was probably a little doubtful. And then

1655
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, obviously they struggled the first few years. Um

1656
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: you know, he hired Matt opdal Matha and Flights as

1657
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:33,760
Speaker 1: an attendant. It appears that there was some sort of

1658
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 1: power struggle and struggle over philosophy on how to recruit.

1659
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 1: Slice wanted top notch high school kids. Matt wanted to

1660
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 1: go to transfer route, which he did at I was State. Uh,

1661
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, fast forward three or four years and Matt's

1662
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:53,280
Speaker 1: recruited most of the team. They've got eight transfers. That's

1663
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 1: what my story in the Times was, Now they finally

1664
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 1: have a mature, uh team that's ready to do some damage.

1665
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 1: Good are they? I'm sorry? How good are they? Um?

1666
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: I mean I think they should make the n c

1667
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:10,760
Speaker 1: A Tournament. I think if they don't make the n

1668
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:13,959
Speaker 1: c A tournament will be a failure for Chris. Obviously,

1669
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:15,720
Speaker 1: it's created a little bit of a buzz here in

1670
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 1: New York, which is obviously a pro town. But if St.

1671
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 1: John's can get to the tournament, you know, Mike France

1672
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 1: Sea and all the New York people jump on the

1673
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 1: bandwagon here. Um, you know, I think they could win

1674
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: a game or two in the NTA tournament. Um is

1675
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 1: Ponds a pro? Yeah? It's funny. I stoptress the NBA

1676
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 1: guys last night at the game, Doug. They're about sixteen

1677
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,599
Speaker 1: NBA guys there. You know, Samory Ponds is only about

1678
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:48,760
Speaker 1: six ft six one, so size is definitely uh not

1679
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 1: a strong point. But you know, the NBA guys I

1680
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: was talking, they were saying, look in today's NBA, you know,

1681
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: it's totally different from the NBA fifteen years ago. He

1682
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 1: probably couldn't have made the NBA then. But it's really

1683
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: all about shooting and scoring. Now, he can definitely shoot it.

1684
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: Um you know, he got a little cold in the

1685
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,640
Speaker 1: second half last night, but he's had numerous games of

1686
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, thirty thirty. So I think he can, you know,

1687
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 1: come off somebody's finish of a third guard or help

1688
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: off the bed. Yeah, I think I think that. My

1689
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:20,920
Speaker 1: question actually is canna guard or will he guard? Right?

1690
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 1: Is he tough? And when the guard defensively? Like that's

1691
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:26,639
Speaker 1: the There's lots of guys that can score, but how

1692
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 1: many do you give up at the other end? Because

1693
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 1: now even though you don't, you don't have to play

1694
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:31,840
Speaker 1: post defense like you used to do on a lot

1695
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 1: of guys. If you're not tough, they just they just

1696
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 1: eat you alive. So that's definitely true. And I think, um,

1697
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think he plays pretty good day under crests.

1698
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: They stressed that, and you know he's gonna go when

1699
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 1: he works out NBA teams and go through the process,

1700
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:51,439
Speaker 1: he's gonna be told, Okay, I want I want your

1701
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: perspective on Zion. He's better than I thought he would

1702
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:58,960
Speaker 1: be at things other than dunking, right, And I think

1703
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 1: I actually think the duke thing has been really good

1704
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,679
Speaker 1: for him, and and my fear was, hey, last year

1705
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,719
Speaker 1: Schewski wave the white flag and didn't make play, didn't

1706
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: make him play man to man defense. And I was like, man,

1707
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: if he doesn't have to play man to man and

1708
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 1: he doesn't become a better shooter and he doesn't get

1709
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: I'm still cautious about the weight because I don't know.

1710
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 1: I just don't know how you're gonna lose weight with

1711
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: his body type. And I also don't know how you

1712
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 1: can play eighty two games plus playoffs with that body type.

1713
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:29,680
Speaker 1: But he seems to play hard, seems to have a

1714
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: high basketball que, seems to like to pass and be

1715
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: a good teammate, and his shooting, though not great, uh,

1716
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 1: is better than I think. Maybe my perspective or how

1717
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: how he was advertised. What's your perspective on Zion now

1718
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 1: that we've seen him fifteen games or so. Yeah, that's

1719
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 1: a couple of things. I mean, Uh, you raised some

1720
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:50,839
Speaker 1: good points there. I talked to some NBA guys before

1721
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:53,679
Speaker 1: the season began, after they just played their games in Canada,

1722
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: and those guys were worried about his weight. You know,

1723
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: they think he may be close to he may be

1724
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 1: close to to seventy now. But the NBA guys were saying, look,

1725
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:07,599
Speaker 1: you know, as you grow up as a man and

1726
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 1: get older, you're gonna add weight, and you're gonna add

1727
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 1: weight in the NBA. So it's not even so much

1728
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,720
Speaker 1: that he weighs to seventy or two eighty now, But

1729
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 1: what's he gonna weigh in in five years down the

1730
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: road in the NBA or ten years down above? Um.

1731
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 1: But I think you know he's gone from being you know,

1732
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: question up all. Maybe he was the first pick, maybe

1733
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:28,840
Speaker 1: it's the second pick behind r J to and now

1734
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: you know everybody agrees he's an up or pick. You know,

1735
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 1: ESPN is feasting off this kid, and you know, getting

1736
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 1: we're getting daily updates on him. And you know they

1737
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:40,599
Speaker 1: did stress that he made three out of four three

1738
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:45,120
Speaker 1: pointers last night, which Mike Schmidt's who's there draft guy

1739
01:22:45,160 --> 01:22:47,320
Speaker 1: in ESPN. You know, he made some good point A

1740
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:50,040
Speaker 1: Zion can just prove that he can get a stand

1741
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: still three pointer and forced defenses to close out. Um.

1742
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 1: You know, at least at least make defense is respected. Um,

1743
01:22:57,439 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: then he's really going to be you know, trouble in

1744
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 1: the n b A And you know, We've just never

1745
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 1: seen anybody like this kid. Our friend Mike de Courcy

1746
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 1: wrote a great story on the Sporting News breaking down

1747
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:10,839
Speaker 1: all the comparisons, you know, Lebron, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson,

1748
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,960
Speaker 1: and how he's really none of these guys. He's different

1749
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,600
Speaker 1: from all these guys who weighs more than most of them,

1750
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:19,160
Speaker 1: and he's just an athletic freak. I think it's gonna

1751
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: be fascinating to watch him and bowl Boll, who's obviously injured,

1752
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,559
Speaker 1: but you know, they're such unique body types. Where are

1753
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: they going to be in three or five years in

1754
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,160
Speaker 1: the NBA. Yeah, Rodney Rodgers is the guy that a

1755
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: lot of people have pointed he's like a more athletic

1756
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: Rodney Rogers. Yeah, it's but it's just, um, you know

1757
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,719
Speaker 1: it's I think we're just lucky to watch it. And

1758
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 1: you know it'll when they play the first n to

1759
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 1: A tournament game. I mean, the hype is just gonna

1760
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,160
Speaker 1: get bigger and bigger. They're gonna be so many reporters

1761
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: and TV cameras. Everybody's don't want to see how Zan

1762
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: does and it starts tournament game, how they do in

1763
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: the AHECC tournament, you know all that kind of thing. Um,

1764
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 1: you're in New York, you come or you're not just

1765
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 1: obviously no high school college sports ridiculously well, but also

1766
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: the Knicks. Okay, so the Knicks plan is, hey, you're

1767
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 1: not gonna play prezingis this year. You're gonna sit him

1768
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:14,559
Speaker 1: out right and uh but okay, but what's the likely

1769
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:16,080
Speaker 1: he like, are you gonna stick him in the last

1770
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 1: ten games five team games this season when you're you're

1771
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,960
Speaker 1: trying to take they're supposed to reevaluate him next month,

1772
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:25,719
Speaker 1: you know, jug in February. You know, it's I see

1773
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:27,839
Speaker 1: both sides of it. You know they're ten and thirty

1774
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 1: or whatever. What's the point bringing him back? You know

1775
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: why I do it? Now? The counter argument is, you know,

1776
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 1: he's competitive, he's gonna want to play, and you know,

1777
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 1: maybe they want to show Kevin Durant or whatever free

1778
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 1: agents said, Hey stay, um okay, but their plan is

1779
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,160
Speaker 1: to go and get try and go get one of

1780
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:53,840
Speaker 1: the big fish, right, Yeah, how likely do you think

1781
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:57,280
Speaker 1: that that is to happen? Well, it's funny, I mean,

1782
01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 1: you know it raised is a whole step of question

1783
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 1: about like, um, you know, as reporters how do you

1784
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,639
Speaker 1: ask a guy like Kevin Durant or Zion Williamson, you know, hey,

1785
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:08,160
Speaker 1: do you want to play in New York? How much

1786
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:09,679
Speaker 1: do you want to play in New York? It's always

1787
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 1: kind of an awkward dance when you ask these kids.

1788
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 1: You know, we did talk to On when he was

1789
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 1: here here in New York with Duke about playing for

1790
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 1: the Knicks and Stephan Bondi as The Daily News asked

1791
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant flat out last night, Um, after the Warriors game,

1792
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, is there any truth to these rumors you

1793
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 1: want to play in New York? And you know he

1794
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 1: kind of smiled and seemed flattered by the question. He

1795
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: didn't say no. Um, you know, he didn't he didn't

1796
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: reject it out right. So it's sort of this dance

1797
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 1: with both NBA free agents and at leite, how it's

1798
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 1: prospects that they do with the media where you know,

1799
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,000
Speaker 1: the media has to ask about it. Some people get

1800
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 1: upset that we asked the kids about it, but but

1801
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:54,360
Speaker 1: you have to do it. Um. You know, if the

1802
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: Warriors go on to win another championship, kind of hard

1803
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: to you know, I could see him wanting to stay there,

1804
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 1: especially since they can pay him thirty million dollars more

1805
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 1: than any other team. Um, so you know, I just

1806
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:08,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't pretend to tell you what

1807
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:11,680
Speaker 1: Kevin there an sec Yeah, but you also you also know,

1808
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, you know the Knicks right, and I do

1809
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 1: think it's changed with Fizdale. Like Fizdale kind of makes

1810
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 1: it kind of cool, a cool landing spot. Um. Like

1811
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 1: I can tell you the Clippers think they're getting Kawhi

1812
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: Leonard like they have. They're telling people like, hey, we're

1813
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,719
Speaker 1: getting Kawhi Leonard. Doesn't mean it happens. Are the Knicks

1814
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:30,320
Speaker 1: doing the same with Kevin Durant? They're definitely not telling

1815
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 1: people that now do I think the Knicks are a

1816
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: better run, more functional organization than they were under Phil

1817
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 1: Jackson without a doubt. You know, the players always been

1818
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 1: the like David Fizdale. Um, you know, Steve Bells and

1819
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 1: Scott Perry seem to have a plan. And you know,

1820
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 1: it is interesting they do have an all African American

1821
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:53,400
Speaker 1: front office. They're all African American gm UH president and

1822
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:56,680
Speaker 1: now coach um. But you know, again, it's like the

1823
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 1: Knicks have been so bad for so long it takes

1824
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:02,559
Speaker 1: a certain kind of player to want to come here

1825
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,879
Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm gonna turn this around, as opposed

1826
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 1: to the trend of just you know, I'm gonna go

1827
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 1: play with my buddies on a really good team. Now, obviously,

1828
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: if a guy like Kevin Durant or Lebron ever ever

1829
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 1: came to the next there would be an instant contenders.

1830
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 1: You know, New York City would go not um. But

1831
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: it does seem like a pretty risk you know that

1832
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,680
Speaker 1: that is their strategy now, but it does seem like

1833
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 1: a pretty risky strategy to gamble everything on your hopes

1834
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 1: that you know you're gonna get k D or Kyrie

1835
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:34,760
Speaker 1: or somebody you know and or that you're gonna get

1836
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,719
Speaker 1: by on or or r J. Bart. Who's the best

1837
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 1: best Who's who's the best basket player you've ever seen?

1838
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean in person? Uh, I mean I did see

1839
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: Lebron a little bit, you know, in uh he came

1840
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:54,720
Speaker 1: and played in New Jersey at the UH when he

1841
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 1: used to have the prime time shootout here that year

1842
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 1: he was in high school. And you know, Zions I

1843
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:03,400
Speaker 1: almost a lot of fun to watch. I mean, he

1844
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 1: I covered Andrew Wiggins and and Uh and Jabari Parker

1845
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 1: and Julius Randol that one year at the e y

1846
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 1: b Ol. They were all a lot of fun to watch.

1847
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 1: You didn't tell me who the best was you saw

1848
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 1: as a high school player. I mean I saw, so

1849
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 1: I gotta say that. You don't have to. You can

1850
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 1: say however you want, Like, I'm not gonna shade your

1851
01:28:24,439 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: like just because he has been the best player in

1852
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 1: the NBA, Like, was he the best? Was he far

1853
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 1: and away the best high school player that you saw?

1854
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 1: I'll say, yeah, he was. He was. He was clearly

1855
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: special at the time, and you know, there was so

1856
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: much hype about him. That was That was a big

1857
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 1: part of it. That was fun, you know, kind of

1858
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 1: one of the first guys in the recent Narra to

1859
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 1: go station high School of the NBA. Um, okay, last

1860
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 1: last thing then then uh and then then we gotta

1861
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 1: let you go, and I know you have to go

1862
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: as well. But how can I get how can people

1863
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 1: get your podcast? I'm on a hiatus for my podcast

1864
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:01,799
Speaker 1: right now, so I'm just gonna visit yours and visit others.

1865
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 1: Ain't fair enough. But we can still get your blog.

1866
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 1: You're still doing your blog, You're still doing your TV stuff,

1867
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 1: and I know you're still doing your pieces. I just

1868
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,960
Speaker 1: read the St. John's piece, so those things still occur. Correct.

1869
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 1: People can go to dogs blog dot com and follow

1870
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Adam Gregoria. If you were hiring

1871
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:19,000
Speaker 1: at u c l A. Okay, now, granted there's a

1872
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,679
Speaker 1: lot of politics that you're hiring. You say, you're Dan Guerrea,

1873
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 1: who do you hire? Well, it's I mean, I talked

1874
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: to a bunch of people about this. I think Fred

1875
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:30,679
Speaker 1: hoib First of all, I did talk to people about

1876
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 1: Rick Patino, and I think that you know, obviously, from

1877
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:37,120
Speaker 1: a basketball standpoint, pinos a no brainer. You go out

1878
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:39,759
Speaker 1: of baggage. You know, it doesn't sound like is gonna happen.

1879
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 1: Fred Hoiberg interesting name. He's going to be in the

1880
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: mix with both the Timberwolves and U c l A.

1881
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: You know, it sounds like his preference is to stay

1882
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: in the NBA and his preferences to coach. But I

1883
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: didn't talk to one guy last night's close to the

1884
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 1: situation is said the timeline could be interesting and if

1885
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,559
Speaker 1: U c l A drags out, you know, into spring,

1886
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 1: that would be more likely that Fred Hartburg would take

1887
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:06,400
Speaker 1: it as opposed to if I decide, like in March,

1888
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: that he might hold on a way for the for

1889
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,479
Speaker 1: the Timberwolves. Um, you know, I think he's probably a

1890
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 1: pretty solid pick. You know, I saw Jeff Goodman throughout

1891
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: Bobby Hurley at Arizona State. You know, look, Bobby would

1892
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 1: win the press conference. He's got a great name, he

1893
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:22,840
Speaker 1: knows how to coach, you draw players. I think you

1894
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,400
Speaker 1: could do worse than Bobby Hurley. I think Eric Musselman's

1895
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 1: a solid choice. But it doesn't sound like he's really

1896
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 1: going to be in the next set. Know that Fried

1897
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:37,320
Speaker 1: roy Berg or or Bobby Hill. But I put you

1898
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 1: in charge. You get to make the call, not what

1899
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 1: they're gonna do. You're making the call. Who do you do?

1900
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,639
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if i'd hire a Rick Putino,

1901
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 1: if I could, uh, you know, if I could get

1902
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 1: away with it, I think, yeah, I think you're I

1903
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:53,000
Speaker 1: think you're right because I don't think you have to

1904
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 1: pay seven eight million dollars. I think you could pay

1905
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:58,160
Speaker 1: three or four which is what they can afford. Um,

1906
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:00,720
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, you may lose some fans of

1907
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 1: the press conference, but you win them all back if

1908
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:04,840
Speaker 1: he gets your national title and gets it back up

1909
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,920
Speaker 1: and running. I think it's would be. It's an amazing discussion.

1910
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:13,839
Speaker 1: Um all right, dude, go ahead. Despite everything that's happened,

1911
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 1: has never been specifically tied to knowledge of payments to

1912
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 1: Brian Bowen's father, um or to the stripper scandal. Now

1913
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 1: I understand a lot of people don't believe that, but

1914
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,640
Speaker 1: there is no direct evidence. You hire him, you know

1915
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna win on the court, You're gonna win the

1916
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 1: press conference, but obviously a lot of other issues that

1917
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 1: great stuff. Man, You're do an awesome job. Thank you

1918
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 1: so much for giving us your insight and we appreciate

1919
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 1: you join us. Thanks dog, any time to take care.

1920
01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:42,760
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I hope you enjoyed both Adam Zagoria

1921
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: and Russia LaRue and this week's edition of All Ball.

1922
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: If you have any basketball questions, feel free to tweet

1923
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 1: me at Gottlieb Show or hit me up on our

1924
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:54,560
Speaker 1: Facebook page, the Doug Gotlip Show Facebook page. In the meantime,

1925
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 1: tell a friend, send this to a friend, tell them

1926
01:31:56,479 --> 01:32:00,840
Speaker 1: the download, subscribe and rate the podcast because is look,

1927
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 1: if you love basketball, you probably like this pod, and

1928
01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 1: you probably have friends that love hoop and would love

1929
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:07,160
Speaker 1: the pod as well my thanks to Brest of the

1930
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 1: Ruin Adams Siguria. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all bo