Speaker 1: It would be very clever, pr if if lived off.
Speaker 1: All the players just said, we love the USGA. They're
Speaker 1: the stewards of the game. We believe in them, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna follow their lead and whatever they want us
Speaker 1: to do, we're gonna do. Because it would be so counterintuitive, right,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they've they've they've got all these spiky
Speaker 1: personalities and these and these guys like to rage against
Speaker 1: the machine like that. Would that would be a way
Speaker 1: to get in the good graces of certain golf fans,
Speaker 1: But it's just not in their DNA. I got thoughts
Speaker 1: in my head. Can't get John nothing think what I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about my head, can't get them out, not think
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan ship Knuck
Speaker 1: back from their Fire Drill podcast with Michael Bamberger. Mike,
Speaker 1: thanks for doing this as always, it's a pleasure. Or
Speaker 1: how is the travels for you? Yes, I'm coming in
Speaker 1: hot from Tucson. I was at the live event and
Speaker 1: it was edifying. You know, I've even though I've been
Speaker 1: there so many times now, and I'm always learning more
Speaker 1: about how it works. And that's their models constantly evolving
Speaker 1: and they're making changes and a lot of us. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of fans on Twitter don't seem tuned
Speaker 1: into the results on live, and I don't think you
Speaker 1: are either, Michael, which is fine. I'm not here to
Speaker 1: shave anybody. But as as a business story, it's utterly fascinating,
Speaker 1: even if you're not into the golf. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is they're gonna be, They're gonna be at the MBA
Speaker 1: program at Stanford, They're gonna be talking about this disruption
Speaker 1: for decades. It's this happens in businesses, but rarely is
Speaker 1: at this public and with this much star power and
Speaker 1: all the geopolitical overtones. Like it's just a fascinating thing.
Speaker 1: So I wrote a story for a fire pit collective
Speaker 1: dot com, posted yesterday after the tournament ended. It's gotten
Speaker 1: a big response online because people are just I think
Speaker 1: they're just happy to learn something new, because we feel like,
Speaker 1: I mean, even me as close as I am to
Speaker 1: all of this, all the stuff happened in the shadows,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all that, the conversations, all the negotiations,
Speaker 1: all the deal making, the betrayals, like it was kind
Speaker 1: of at of sight and then little bits leak out
Speaker 1: here and there. But so it's fun to I mean,
Speaker 1: I talked I don't know how many players I talked to,
Speaker 1: but easily over a dozen. And UM got a key
Speaker 1: live executive on the phone for about half an hour,
Speaker 1: and that's really hard to do, you know, in the
Speaker 1: midst of the antitrust lawsuits and everything, everybody's running scared,
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk to any reporters. UM. So it
Speaker 1: was just it was it was great for me personally
Speaker 1: to learn a lot more about what's happening out there.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, readers have appreciated that that
Speaker 1: insight that I can pass along. It's a very edifying
Speaker 1: piece of journalism that you wrote, and it's one that
Speaker 1: you're not going to read anywhere else except on our
Speaker 1: website because there's no other reporter who is devoted to
Speaker 1: actually getting the story as you are. One of the
Speaker 1: probably my single biggest I'm gonna tell you what, my
Speaker 1: biggest seakeaway always from it Allan and then and then
Speaker 1: you wreckt My biggest seakeaway from that is that despite
Speaker 1: the enormous sophistication of the Saudi business leaders who are
Speaker 1: putting this thing together, is there is a fly by
Speaker 1: night element to this even with the hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: and bill actually literally billions of dollars invested. And what
Speaker 1: I took away from your story is they don't really
Speaker 1: know what they're doing. And I don't mean that possibly
Speaker 1: or negatively, it's just that was my takeaway. Is that
Speaker 1: a fair unfair? You tell me that's totally fair? Another
Speaker 1: way to phrase it. And this is like Nicholson made
Speaker 1: this point in his press conference. I didn't put it
Speaker 1: in the story, but he said, things change, things evolved,
Speaker 1: and we had we were nimble enough and our leadership
Speaker 1: is flexible enough to respond to that. You know that
Speaker 1: like in his mind, this is good governance that they're
Speaker 1: willing to um to make these changes on the fly.
Speaker 1: As you say, I mean, for instance, they have kind
Speaker 1: of this. I mean, they have a ten year plan
Speaker 1: and the way and what they're doing this year was
Speaker 1: really going to be for next year. But they felt like,
Speaker 1: we have so much momentum. We've we've got we've signed
Speaker 1: more players, and we expected to let's go all in
Speaker 1: and and speed things up, and that's created some of
Speaker 1: this um discord. I guess would be one word for it.
Speaker 1: But most of the players are like, this is great.
Speaker 1: I mean we got to we're trying to get somewhere,
Speaker 1: and the faster we can get there the better. So
Speaker 1: your your response is completely valid. The Live side would
Speaker 1: would look would would point to that as as a
Speaker 1: good leadership where you're willing to to um to update
Speaker 1: your plans based on on how things are playing out
Speaker 1: on the ground. So um, But it's both views are valid.
Speaker 1: I mean there is an element of like they are
Speaker 1: winging it and can be good and bad and by um,
Speaker 1: you know, to accelerate their business plan by a year.
Speaker 1: I think it was it was certainly the right choice.
Speaker 1: I mean Live is crying out for an identity beyond
Speaker 1: the Saudi money and the team thing I think has
Speaker 1: a chance to be really compelling. I mean I've been
Speaker 1: on I've been there now these last two events. I
Speaker 1: actually I like the uniforms. I think it's a really
Speaker 1: cool look and just for me personally, it helps it
Speaker 1: burns into my brain who's on which team because you
Speaker 1: know they've changed a lot since last year, and there
Speaker 1: is a very palpable camaraderie amongst the teams, Like they
Speaker 1: play their practice rounds together, they all set up on
Speaker 1: the range together, they have dinners together and the way
Speaker 1: they've organized it's it's not an accident, you know, like
Speaker 1: the All Assie team, like they were throwing a rugby
Speaker 1: ball around and having fun in the lobby of the
Speaker 1: Rich Carlton. You know, these are just fun loving characters
Speaker 1: and you know Kevin Nas Ironheads. It's kind of this
Speaker 1: pan Asian team. And obviously Danny Lee got the win
Speaker 1: yesterday and you could see his teammates they, I mean,
Speaker 1: they look like they were emotional about it. Danny Lee
Speaker 1: was all choked up and we hadn't won anywhere in
Speaker 1: the world since twenty fifteen, and he said, like this
Speaker 1: team has changed the way I play golf because I
Speaker 1: can't take a single shot off because I know my
Speaker 1: teammates need me. And it's on a very basic level.
Speaker 1: I mean, the most stressed out I've been on a
Speaker 1: golf course in the last year was you and I, Michael,
Speaker 1: when we played the Uncle Tony Invitational. Abandoned because I
Speaker 1: wanted to play well for you. And it's a very
Speaker 1: it's a very human feeling. When you have a teammate
Speaker 1: you care more, you know, if I'm off playing and
Speaker 1: just some for some buddies and we're playing for ten bucks.
Speaker 1: If I played bad, it's on me. They're happy I
Speaker 1: played bad because they're gonna win more money. And you know,
Speaker 1: you get down on yourself, but you're not letting anyone
Speaker 1: else down. But as soon as you have a teammate,
Speaker 1: the emotion is so different. And even these players who
Speaker 1: are guaranteed money and they've had these long careers in
Speaker 1: some cases like they're feeling that on a very human level.
Speaker 1: And I think I think it's kind of cool. And
Speaker 1: as you know, there's there's an all Latin American team,
Speaker 1: there's you know, the Westwood Poulter Stenson, you know, it's
Speaker 1: these old Rider Cup of War horses, Like they've they've
Speaker 1: grouped these teams in ways that make sense. You have
Speaker 1: an all South African team, um, And you used to
Speaker 1: see this on the European tour, right, like all the
Speaker 1: Spaniards would would travel together and eat together and play
Speaker 1: practice rounds together, and then they would they would use
Speaker 1: these teams in the Ryder Cup because these guys had
Speaker 1: this palpable chemistry in this history and this the shared
Speaker 1: language and culture, and that was one of the keys
Speaker 1: to the European Writer Cup success is that they took
Speaker 1: these these small, bonded units of players and they use
Speaker 1: that to their advantage and Live is kind of doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. And so whether the fan at large
Speaker 1: will ever be invested in in these results, that's the
Speaker 1: ultimate question. But the players are and that's a big
Speaker 1: step forward because it's gonna be hard. It would be
Speaker 1: hard for the fans to ever care if the players
Speaker 1: did not care, but they definitely do, and so that
Speaker 1: was an important first step and I think that justifies
Speaker 1: Live speeding up its model here to get more buying
Speaker 1: from the players and to get them literally more invested
Speaker 1: in their team. So that's a success for Live again,
Speaker 1: and I think it does help blunt the criticism of
Speaker 1: all these guys have guaranteed money, they don't care. They're
Speaker 1: just going through the motions. Like if you're on the grounds,
Speaker 1: you can feel how much they care and you can
Speaker 1: see it. And I mean like on Friday when the
Speaker 1: first round ended, you know, all the players come come
Speaker 1: in at the same time, and so it's kind of
Speaker 1: a melee around the scoring area because I won't have
Speaker 1: to turn in their cards. And you know, Phil Michelson
Speaker 1: saw Brendon Steel and he's like, how do we do?
Speaker 1: What's your number? You know? It was cute like um
Speaker 1: and you can see the players are looking for each
Speaker 1: other in that area. They want to no, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's scoreboards out there, but you always want to get
Speaker 1: that final confirmation. And so the players are definitely invested
Speaker 1: in the team thing. Again, the TV numbers weren't great.
Speaker 1: Whether that's the ultimate question is whether the fans can
Speaker 1: get there, But I think I think they made the
Speaker 1: right call. It's another thing that comes out very clear
Speaker 1: from very clearly from your story that's on our website today,
Speaker 1: that they're gonna lean way more into this team concept
Speaker 1: than we even thought thought originally. And I guess that's
Speaker 1: also very not a guess. It's very much tied into
Speaker 1: how the s audience can actually make some money from
Speaker 1: this venture. But alan just from your own observations or
Speaker 1: from reporting or otherwise. The tradition of team competition is
Speaker 1: an incredibly rich one, whether it's national pride in the
Speaker 1: Olympics or city pride like in baseball, football, basketball, hockey,
Speaker 1: the writer up of course continent versus country. Has there
Speaker 1: ever been at case where teams have sort of and
Speaker 1: I understand that they've done a very good job, very
Speaker 1: clever of putting these groups of like minded players in
Speaker 1: similar backgrounds together. But in terms of trent but that's
Speaker 1: okay for them. How does that translate to fan interest?
Speaker 1: Is there is there a way to actually do that?
Speaker 1: Can you really create fan interest when the starting point
Speaker 1: is we're getting the team together in the interest of
Speaker 1: making money. Yeah, So that the interesting thing. The crowds
Speaker 1: and Tucson are pretty good. I mean it's obviously Phoenix
Speaker 1: Open is a long time tours stop. Tucson used to have,
Speaker 1: you know, the Tucson Open, which our colleague Jeff Ogilvie
Speaker 1: one that was his first win, you know, Phil one
Speaker 1: in Tucson when he was in college to launch his career.
Speaker 1: It was kind of a minor stop on the tour,
Speaker 1: but a lot of great players won there, including Arnold
Speaker 1: Palmer and others that went away. They got the the
Speaker 1: World match play at the same course to gallery course
Speaker 1: for a period of years. But you know, they played
Speaker 1: in February and they almost snowed a few times. It
Speaker 1: was not it's not an easy course to walk. But
Speaker 1: the crowds were good because Tucson has a golf history
Speaker 1: and for instance, the Fireballs, which is you know, Sergio
Speaker 1: Garcia and a Banswer and um you know two other
Speaker 1: guys who whose native tongue is Spanish. They had a
Speaker 1: good gallery of Hispanic fans out there, and you could
Speaker 1: hear some of the some of the conversations, you know,
Speaker 1: almost like there was some of it was in Spanish.
Speaker 1: And so in that very small sample size, the model worked.
Speaker 1: You know, they group these players together because they they're
Speaker 1: all sort of representing Latin American in some way, and
Speaker 1: the fans found them and they cared about them in
Speaker 1: a way that they wouldn't have otherwise. And I thought
Speaker 1: that was interesting. Now, um, you know, I'm sure there's
Speaker 1: some kids in Australia or South Africa who care about
Speaker 1: the Rippers or the Stinger because they're all Australian or
Speaker 1: they're all South African. And uh, you know, if you
Speaker 1: grew up in a certain era and in your your
Speaker 1: North Stars were, um, you know, Charles Schwartzel and Lui
Speaker 1: Ustaisen and now they're teammates, um and they've been your
Speaker 1: favorite players for a long time, You're probably going to
Speaker 1: be a little more invested in that team. Um So,
Speaker 1: and you know the same thing if you're an English
Speaker 1: fan of a certain age and Lee Westwood and Ian
Speaker 1: Poulter where you're gods like and now they're playing together,
Speaker 1: and you know they have Sam Horsefield, who's another another
Speaker 1: British gent. So I don't know, I don't know what
Speaker 1: the scale of it is. I think they will pick
Speaker 1: off some some fans because they've made it very tribal,
Speaker 1: and I think that was smart. Interestingly, it's it's the
Speaker 1: top Americans that that don't really have an identity so much,
Speaker 1: you know, because um, but I think Phil's kind of
Speaker 1: low key, going for like a West Coast vibe. You
Speaker 1: know that's some Brendan Steele's a California guy, but um,
Speaker 1: you know that like like Bryson's team is an absolute mishmash.
Speaker 1: It's it's Paul Casey, it's uh narbon Lahiri uh and
Speaker 1: um who's their fourth player? Now I'm drawn a blank.
Speaker 1: But there's no natural kinship there right, like oh in
Speaker 1: this Paul Casey, who's an English chant. It's like there,
Speaker 1: it doesn't quite fit them. You know, who are they?
Speaker 1: What are they? And even even their names the crushers
Speaker 1: so that well, they're not really long hitters so that
Speaker 1: doesn't work either. Like some of these teams were clearly
Speaker 1: struggling for an identity, and I don't know how they're
Speaker 1: going to solve that except through maybe through attrition, you
Speaker 1: know if um, I mean, I'd love for Bryson to
Speaker 1: go all in and get three players who who just
Speaker 1: swing for the fences, and um, whether they could actually
Speaker 1: score and play real golf would be would be fascinating.
Speaker 1: But um, you know, if you're gonna call yourself the crushers,
Speaker 1: you can't have an Indian guy who who drives at
Speaker 1: two sixty like Lea hear he does. It just doesn't
Speaker 1: quite work, Like what is who are you? What are you?
Speaker 1: So they haven't they haven't fully baked it out. But UM,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's gonna be um to me.
Speaker 1: It's kind of fun and funny and the whole thing,
Speaker 1: you know, I will say, the the merchandise, it sells
Speaker 1: in small batches, like the the Bubba's team. The range
Speaker 1: Goats has a really good logo and they have really
Speaker 1: fun colors. And in Mexico all their stuff was sold
Speaker 1: out by even the pro am day, and it was
Speaker 1: gone in Tucson really fast too, Like they clearly need
Speaker 1: more quantity. Um. Some of the stuff has become kind
Speaker 1: of a kitchy collector's item in a way, and so
Speaker 1: I think they will be able to sell some merchandise
Speaker 1: and that that becomes a revenue stream. It's not a
Speaker 1: big one, but it's something. And um, some some of
Speaker 1: the logos and you know, are kind of awful and
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone wants to wear them, but some
Speaker 1: of them are well done. So um, the identities and
Speaker 1: the branding of the teams has potential, it really does,
Speaker 1: but it's still a work in progress. Did you get
Speaker 1: to catch Trinity the telecast and what were your impressions
Speaker 1: of it? Yeah, so when I'm in the press room working,
Speaker 1: they have a telecast on. There's no sound, which is
Speaker 1: a kind of my preferred way to watch calf Anyway,
Speaker 1: I can't really comment on the commentary, but it is
Speaker 1: the irony is that the live golf telecast is what
Speaker 1: golf Twitter demands and bitches about every weekend. You know
Speaker 1: that you're lucky to be immune from the discourse, Michael,
Speaker 1: but a big, a big faction of golf Twitter is
Speaker 1: there just to complain about TV coverage. I mean, every
Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday. It's just endless and not unjustified. But
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone who's part of the live broadcast. Well,
Speaker 1: he's behind the scenes, he's one of the shot callers,
Speaker 1: and he said they average one hundred and fifty shots
Speaker 1: per hour and they refuse to show tappens. They never
Speaker 1: show tappens because they think it's boring. Unless a guy
Speaker 1: misses it, they'll show it, but otherwise notes it's one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty real shots and putts and that they've
Speaker 1: they've looked into it. And on CBS and NBC the
Speaker 1: average is fifty to sixty an hour, and so the
Speaker 1: live telecast is like bang bang bang, like it's shot
Speaker 1: too shot, two shot. And of course there's not the
Speaker 1: commercial load because they don't have commercial sponsors yet, so
Speaker 1: that's not totally a fair fight. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: I was especially watching on Friday, that's when I was
Speaker 1: in front of my computer a little bit more. And
Speaker 1: that's just that's the streaming version when there really is
Speaker 1: no commercials, and it's, um, it's a dream for a
Speaker 1: golf fan, and it's just there's no there's no filler.
Speaker 1: I mean, they are just showing golf shot after golf shot,
Speaker 1: and on an interesting desert course where guys were hitting
Speaker 1: you know, offline and getting in trouble and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of runouts and really challenging short game shots and
Speaker 1: there's drive all part fours. It was fun to watch.
Speaker 1: I mean just as a golf fan, like I like
Speaker 1: watching camp Smith play golf. I like watching Dustin Johnson,
Speaker 1: I like watching a bands or you know, there's these
Speaker 1: guys are mega talents and so if you can you know,
Speaker 1: if you can in a silo, in a vacuum, if
Speaker 1: you can declutter your brain from all the other things,
Speaker 1: and you just like watching really skilled golfers. It really
Speaker 1: interesting golf shots. Like it was great fun. But you know,
Speaker 1: the numbers haven't been there so far, and you know
Speaker 1: this year, their their ratings are very low, and um so,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm slightly in a minority opinion. But the
Speaker 1: U I had that exact moment alan watching just a
Speaker 1: little bit of the telecast. You see a guy over
Speaker 1: a shot, You see a caddy and a player talking
Speaker 1: about a shot. You see you know, you see a
Speaker 1: player watching a putt roll to the hole and is
Speaker 1: it in or out? Is it going to fallow or not.
Speaker 1: And it looked just like a pH two or event
Speaker 1: except for the shorts. There were definitely moments like that,
Speaker 1: highly skilled golfers playing golf. We've been watching that on
Speaker 1: two baby, literally all all our lives um so at
Speaker 1: some level it is just another form of golf, you know.
Speaker 1: And then I think the question is are you are
Speaker 1: you going to care? Can they make you care? Can
Speaker 1: you make yourself care? Are you so distracted by you know,
Speaker 1: it's sort of like what Rory says. You know, we're
Speaker 1: not just competing with Live, We're competing with TikTok. There's
Speaker 1: so many demands for our time. It's like and I
Speaker 1: understand that people were you know, I wrote, I watched
Speaker 1: one episode of the Netflix series. I didn't think it
Speaker 1: worked at all, the Jordan justin one, and I consider,
Speaker 1: like we all do my time to be valuable. I
Speaker 1: don't care to watch anymore. So I wrote up the
Speaker 1: one and said that's it for me. Now. People have
Speaker 1: told me that there are many other better ones. But
Speaker 1: the point here is that there is tremendous competition for
Speaker 1: our time, and that's going to be. As you say,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of moments when it's just watching really
Speaker 1: skilled golfers playing golf shots. But can you make us
Speaker 1: care about the results? Not you, but can can the
Speaker 1: Saudi organizers? Can Live Golf make us really care about
Speaker 1: the outcome? That's all. It's going to be an enormous
Speaker 1: challenge for this league, and I don't understand really why
Speaker 1: on Sunday they can't find another way to change the
Speaker 1: format so not everybody is finishing at once. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: interesting because you know, the inspiration for everything Live Golf
Speaker 1: does is the Premier Golf League. And I've read through
Speaker 1: the one hundred and sixteen page prospectus a number of times,
Speaker 1: which Live leaned on heavily. And they had a shotgun
Speaker 1: start for the first two rounds, but on the final
Speaker 1: round they went to traditional you know, everyone goes off
Speaker 1: the first team leaders go last. Recognizing that you kind
Speaker 1: of want that traditional drama, that's a departure for Living
Speaker 1: It's probably a mistake. I mean, they do send the
Speaker 1: leaders off last, so the leaders will go off one
Speaker 1: the guys the nearest pursuers go off too, so they
Speaker 1: they're trying to get the drama on the final holes.
Speaker 1: But even so it's I mean That's a another thing.
Speaker 1: I like you talk about the attention span. I like
Speaker 1: that all the players start at the same time and
Speaker 1: everyone's on the course at the same time, and the
Speaker 1: whole thing takes, you know, four and a half hours
Speaker 1: and then you're done. It's a dream work day for uh,
Speaker 1: for the for those of us in the typing trade,
Speaker 1: and I think the fans like it too. I mean,
Speaker 1: to beat a tour event in the sun for ten
Speaker 1: hours is that's not easy to do. And if you're
Speaker 1: you know, we talked abouts on a previous podcast, but
Speaker 1: all your players are that you want to watch, you're
Speaker 1: out there and you just have to find them instead
Speaker 1: of you know, waiting for a morning in an afternoon wave.
Speaker 1: So that's one to your point that the and I
Speaker 1: was talking to you know, I have I have four teenagers,
Speaker 1: and we were just talking about how the media has changed,
Speaker 1: and I was sort of lamenting that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the things that I value, the the long form, the
Speaker 1: richly reported pieces, whether it's on golf er, on anything.
Speaker 1: And I know you're the same kind of reader, Michael,
Speaker 1: and we have the same taste. And Olivia, my nineteen
Speaker 1: year old, she's like, that's dead nobody cares. She's like,
Speaker 1: if you can't tell it in a sixty second TikTok,
Speaker 1: nobody cares. It was like so harsh and funny, but
Speaker 1: obviously true for a growing percentage of humanity. And so,
Speaker 1: I mean, to live's credit, they've tried to adapt to that,
Speaker 1: like let's give you a more easily consumable products. It's
Speaker 1: three days instead of four, it's four and a half
Speaker 1: hours instead of twelve. Everybody's out there at once, and
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of these things are held against
Speaker 1: it as as a as a critique, like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: not real competition, it's not saving two holes, and shotgun
Speaker 1: start is for you know, it's for charity fundraisers at
Speaker 1: your local hospital. But they're sort of trying to acknowledge
Speaker 1: that the tastes have changed among the consumer, and it's
Speaker 1: they're being belittled for it. But if if my entire
Speaker 1: market research are the people in my house, than um
Speaker 1: I would say they're they're onto something, But um, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's an interesting debate, But you're right,
Speaker 1: getting the average golf fan who's who's used to the
Speaker 1: traditional venues in the traditional way of doing it. Can
Speaker 1: they get them to cross over. I did a speaking
Speaker 1: thing at UM at Stanford Golf Course not too long ago,
Speaker 1: and it was sixty people in the room. They were
Speaker 1: having a member guest at Stanford UM, so a learned
Speaker 1: crowd and obviously serious golfers. And I asked, like, how
Speaker 1: many of you have watched a live telecast? And I
Speaker 1: was surprised. It was probably a dozen hands went up.
Speaker 1: That was more than I expected. UM, and they you know,
Speaker 1: there was a curiosity factor there that you know now
Speaker 1: they're in year two. I mean people are people either
Speaker 1: like it or they don't UM, I guess if they can.
Speaker 1: And this is this is one of Live's fundamental problems
Speaker 1: right now. Is it was built on star power, like like,
Speaker 1: let's cater to the the biggest names and give them
Speaker 1: what they want so they'll come and play on our tour.
Speaker 1: But it's the journeyman who are winning. I mean Charles
Speaker 1: Howe that was he was a cute winner and it
Speaker 1: meant a lot to him and he contended again. Danny Lee,
Speaker 1: you know, he was choked up. He was emotional, like
Speaker 1: the idea that these guys don't care, you know, Danny
Speaker 1: Lee unable to speak after the Win would would probably
Speaker 1: counter that narrative. But you're not going to build a
Speaker 1: breakaway league on Charles Howe and Danny Lee. I mean
Speaker 1: they need, they need Phil to find it. Bryson is
Speaker 1: playing terrible golf. Camp Smith, you know he's been okay.
Speaker 1: Dustin's kind of cruising along like uh, you know Brooks.
Speaker 1: I would say those five guys could really move the
Speaker 1: needle if you have Brooks, Dustin, Camum, Phil and and
Speaker 1: DJ like, they could break through the clutter. And they're
Speaker 1: so compelling to watch and we're invested in their stories
Speaker 1: that as golf fans, I think they could make a difference.
Speaker 1: But the Danny Lee's and the Charles Howe's is as
Speaker 1: charming as they are. I mean that's a problem for Live.
Speaker 1: They need, they need their biggest names to start bringing it,
Speaker 1: and they just haven't really. I mean, Dustin and Cam
Speaker 1: and Brooks each one once last year, but they've they've
Speaker 1: kind of faded away, and so I don't know that
Speaker 1: there's definitely you don't want the journeyman to carry Live Golf.
Speaker 1: I mean, now it is, it's kind of it's again
Speaker 1: how we talk about things. You have this kid, Taylor
Speaker 1: Moore I'm not really a kid, but a guy trying
Speaker 1: to break through at Valspar and that was totally celebrated
Speaker 1: like this is and I see this in my mention,
Speaker 1: this is what this is what the PGA tors about.
Speaker 1: It's guy's changing their life and getting the break they
Speaker 1: always needed. And that's why it's so compelling. And I
Speaker 1: think we all agree with that. But if a guy
Speaker 1: like Danny Leeve hasn't won anywhere in seven years and
Speaker 1: this is a career altering performance and he's found a purpose,
Speaker 1: like people kind of shrug and go, he's he's He's
Speaker 1: just want a bunch of money, That's why he cares.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, his career just got jumpstarted in
Speaker 1: a huge way, but it's not celebrated in the way
Speaker 1: that that sort of an unknown winning on the PGA Tours.
Speaker 1: So um, that's another perception problem for live golf. A
Speaker 1: couple that triggers a lot alan Um. One of the ones.
Speaker 1: Your four teenagers in the house are an incredibly important
Speaker 1: dynamic for golf because they're they're very interested, bright kids,
Speaker 1: interested in the world. They're not they're active in their
Speaker 1: own sports. They're not golfers, but golf traditionally has been
Speaker 1: able to take in the ordinary sportsman for the four
Speaker 1: Majors and for the Ryder Cup especially, no matter matter what,
Speaker 1: what what their interests in golf. And and that's why
Speaker 1: those numbers have been those numbers those events. Is anyone
Speaker 1: your age or my age would know, they're a crescendo.
Speaker 1: They lead, they build, they build, they build, and then
Speaker 1: they explode. And and what you're four teenagers saying is
Speaker 1: we don't have the time or the patients for that.
Speaker 1: So it's an enormous challenge for golf going forward. CBS
Speaker 1: is finding this with their Master's Cell guests, you know,
Speaker 1: the Masters is the ultimate example of that. To really
Speaker 1: appreciate Sunday afternoon, you have to be along for the
Speaker 1: ride to some degree, Thursday, Friday Act one definitely Saturday
Speaker 1: act too, where you get to know the protagonists and
Speaker 1: then you're all in for the third act on Sunday.
Speaker 1: But if the nature of storytelling has changed so fundamentally
Speaker 1: that that doesn't hold up anymore, like as might be
Speaker 1: the case in the ship Nuck House and millions of
Speaker 1: other houses, then that's that is a basic problem for golf.
Speaker 1: In this narrow sense, it's a basic problem for golf
Speaker 1: in the broadcasting of golf to millions of people. Now
Speaker 1: as you and I, you know, for me, that's not golf,
Speaker 1: that's some little sliver of golf. Even like when Jeff
Speaker 1: was in our podcast the other day and he's talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, the golfing celebrity and their ability to sell
Speaker 1: the big headed driver in the hot ball and the
Speaker 1: Titanum chef and all the rest. Even that's just a
Speaker 1: sort of sliver of golf. But but what what you're
Speaker 1: talking about illustrates a huge problem for golf, for golf
Speaker 1: on TV going forward. Well, and even Augusta National. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we know how Jerry Attrick that membership is,
Speaker 1: but they get it. Like you know, the the guys
Speaker 1: kicking around beach balls an amen corner last year was
Speaker 1: a curiosity. Um, you know, dude perfect, But that was
Speaker 1: an attempt by Augusta National to reach all the people
Speaker 1: under thirty out there who don't want to hear the
Speaker 1: tricky pianio music. And they don't get they don't get
Speaker 1: teary eyed thinking about Gene Sarazen's five Wood, you know,
Speaker 1: like there and if I don't know, if you saw
Speaker 1: this little teaser they released on social media. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: they have kind of these hipsters hanging out, yeah, having
Speaker 1: like a little masters party. Like, whether you liked it
Speaker 1: or not, it was at least Augusta National has realized
Speaker 1: we can't keep selling ourselves the same way because it's
Speaker 1: old and it's tired. And how about how about fred
Speaker 1: Ridley last year? Are you talking about the dude perfect? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, so they're listening to theirs. You know, they
Speaker 1: all have grandkids the age of my kids, and they've
Speaker 1: gotten the message like we've got to reinvent ourselves a
Speaker 1: little bit. Um. So it's just an interesting time. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've talked about this a lot offline, how the golf
Speaker 1: media has changed, and it's, um. You can lament it
Speaker 1: or you can just try and keep up with the times.
Speaker 1: And it's certainly um. You know, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've if you've noticed Kevin val van Waalkenberg since
Speaker 1: he went to No Lang Up, he's been writing game
Speaker 1: stories just as tweets. And you know, I read his
Speaker 1: mail back. So he's been writing game stories that just
Speaker 1: as a series of tweets, not even posting on the website,
Speaker 1: but just you know, a thread of of twenty or
Speaker 1: thirty or forty tweets that bring to life some aspect.
Speaker 1: And you know, he talked about one of his mailbags,
Speaker 1: and I was just talking to Kevin on the phone
Speaker 1: the other day and we went through it a little
Speaker 1: a little bit as well that He's like, well that
Speaker 1: by the time you get that edited and posted, it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's nighttime, and then they're playing golf again
Speaker 1: the next day, and it's just kind of it feels
Speaker 1: like it's, um, you lose the audience and whereas you
Speaker 1: can just put up on Twitter more with more immediacy
Speaker 1: and and folks, well, we'll consume it, and we'll get
Speaker 1: them excited that you're there, and maybe they'll they'll they'll
Speaker 1: be inspired to look into more of things you have done.
Speaker 1: But you know, for you and I to imagine going too,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get the masters together a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: like to not write every day and not to put
Speaker 1: it on our website and try and you know, do
Speaker 1: a more traditional, longer, longer form story. Like it's hard,
Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine a world where we didn't do that.
Speaker 1: But you know, maybe we're just dinosaurs. I don't know.
Speaker 1: We write for people who like the pleasure sitting down
Speaker 1: and reading something, and Kevin knows two. But what Kevin's
Speaker 1: figuring out is that they're reading in a different way.
Speaker 1: And your four kids are giving that message all the time. Alan,
Speaker 1: in your week there, did you talk to anybody affiliated
Speaker 1: with LIV who thinks the rollback, the so called rollback
Speaker 1: of the golf ball, would be a good thing for golf.
Speaker 1: I can kind of guess the answer, but I don't
Speaker 1: want to get Yeah. Yeah, you know, we know that
Speaker 1: LIVE is predisposed to attract the rebels, right, the non conformists,
Speaker 1: and they're not stoked about the rollback. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: trying to sell an entertainment product. And you know one
Speaker 1: player who I'm not going to say my name because
Speaker 1: we were just kind of bullshitting, but like I think
Speaker 1: gonna make us use a gutta percha, Like he's like,
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous, Like what is the usj doing that
Speaker 1: they're living in the nineteenth century, which, of course I
Speaker 1: don't fully agree that analysis, but um, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're if your mot if, your motto is golf but louder,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be in favor of a quieter game,
Speaker 1: a more contemplative game. It just doesn't it doesn't work. So, um,
Speaker 1: it really plays right into their hands. Yeah, totally. So. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't hear much support for the rollback, but um,
Speaker 1: you know that Live is getting more into the governance
Speaker 1: side of things. You know, last year was just a
Speaker 1: chaotic launch in so much there's so many moving parts.
Speaker 1: But they're you know this player meeting that I staked
Speaker 1: out in the lobby of the Rich Carlton. I mean,
Speaker 1: they they're going to go to a drug testing policy
Speaker 1: this year, which I have to do if their players
Speaker 1: want to play in the Olympics and those sort of things.
Speaker 1: They're instituting a slow play policy, which every professional tour needs. Um.
Speaker 1: So that was funny you had where the one guy said, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just effective. Is that j tours watch out exactly.
Speaker 1: But honestly, the pace of playout there, I think is
Speaker 1: pretty good. Um, I'm always surprised, like I'm doing something.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh man, they're gonna be finishing here soon.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, they're playing about four and a half hours,
Speaker 1: where on tour it feels like it's taken five and
Speaker 1: a half. So um. But the point is they're they're
Speaker 1: they're they're introducing more structure and more real decision making.
Speaker 1: So at some point they can they're going to have
Speaker 1: to have this discussion, do we want to abide by
Speaker 1: the rollback or not? UM. I think ultimately they're going
Speaker 1: they will have to because Live Golf knows that it's
Speaker 1: a lot of its credibility is going to be determined
Speaker 1: by how the players perform in the major championships, and
Speaker 1: if all the tour guys are playing the USGA by
Speaker 1: the USGA rules, which will be you know, that's what
Speaker 1: the majors are going to do, right, They're they're not
Speaker 1: going to defy the United States Golf Association. So if
Speaker 1: if the Masters and the PGA in the British Open
Speaker 1: have the roll back ball, the Live guys can't rock
Speaker 1: up those weeks. Haven't played a different ball most weeks,
Speaker 1: and so I think ultimately they'll be in lockstep with
Speaker 1: whatever the tour does, grudgingly, but they're not going to
Speaker 1: hide their disdain. But I you know, that's one of
Speaker 1: the that's one of the fascinating subplots is both Live
Speaker 1: and the PGA Tour don't have to follow this local rule.
Speaker 1: They can do what they want as an organization, but
Speaker 1: I think they're going to have to mirror each other.
Speaker 1: And I think Lives of course going to take its
Speaker 1: cues from the PGA Tour because the ultimate proving grounds
Speaker 1: has become the majors and you don't want to put
Speaker 1: yourself a disadvantage there. So I think they'll be grumbling,
Speaker 1: but ultimately they'll go along with whatever the tour does.
Speaker 1: Alan just as a quick aside, and then I want
Speaker 1: to they do have another question for you, but just
Speaker 1: as a quick aside, what do you think about the
Speaker 1: idea of the USJ and the RNA trying to develop
Speaker 1: the ball just for the four Majors where Pebble Beach
Speaker 1: and the Old Course area and many others would still
Speaker 1: have meaningful part AUGUSTA National would have would be meaningful,
Speaker 1: and then maybe try to sell that ball down the
Speaker 1: road to the PGA Tour as well. I just think
Speaker 1: it's so problematic because these guys are so highly optimized
Speaker 1: with their equipment and to play the game a certain way,
Speaker 1: you know, forty eight weeks a year and then the
Speaker 1: other and then four weeks a year to have to
Speaker 1: learn different trajectories, different carry distances, tweak your equipment, different shafts,
Speaker 1: different whatever, and those are the four most important weeks.
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I mean, that would be essentially
Speaker 1: if if basketball for the NBA Finals just raised the
Speaker 1: rims six inches, which would probably make the game more interesting.
Speaker 1: And the players are skilled enough, they would they would
Speaker 1: get they would be able to they'd be able to
Speaker 1: play the game, but it would be different, and you know,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the shooting percentage would drop dramatically
Speaker 1: and they'd be brick City and it would be like,
Speaker 1: what's the point. I mean, I just now you're now
Speaker 1: you're really creating two different games. And you know, Mike Clayton,
Speaker 1: he we had a we had a whole conversation offline
Speaker 1: about about this stuff, and he said, well, this that's
Speaker 1: exactly what happened with the British ball. You know, people
Speaker 1: forget that this did happen. There was true bifurcation in
Speaker 1: the game forty years ago when they introduced this different
Speaker 1: ball through the RNA, which is different from the USGA,
Speaker 1: and players had to learn a different ball and they
Speaker 1: were able to do it. But that was before track
Speaker 1: Man and that was before a lot of um equipment advances,
Speaker 1: and so it could work. I mean, if you told
Speaker 1: the guys you can't play the Masters unless you play
Speaker 1: this ball, They're going to play that ball and someone
Speaker 1: someone's gonna shoot to seventy two and win the golf tournament.
Speaker 1: I mean it would happen, but I think he would
Speaker 1: on some in some level and diminished the Majors because
Speaker 1: it would there'd be so many guys being like, what
Speaker 1: this just doesn't feel. This is not the golf I know,
Speaker 1: is not the golf I've grown up. This is not
Speaker 1: the skill set that I've honed. Um. And maybe that's
Speaker 1: a that's a that's a new school view. But I
Speaker 1: mean when you it's funny to me still, even though
Speaker 1: I've seen it for a while when when guys are
Speaker 1: playing practice rounds they have, you know, their manager or
Speaker 1: their caddy. They're carrying their track man. They set it
Speaker 1: down for every shot now and even in the practice
Speaker 1: rounds like they've got these little sling things. They carry
Speaker 1: their their launch monitors in and um, every shot of
Speaker 1: every practice round and pro am is on the track man.
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked about this with Hailer and
Speaker 1: Jeff Ogilvion need a force. I mean for the for
Speaker 1: the old school guys like that that it's it's horrific,
Speaker 1: like it makes their their faces melt. But again, times
Speaker 1: change and habits change, and so I don't I don't
Speaker 1: like the idea of of of making the players learn
Speaker 1: something new and adapt just for those four weeks, which
Speaker 1: are the ones that really matter. What do you think,
Speaker 1: I mean, would you be in favorite? I mean favorite?
Speaker 1: I think it would be neat. I think would actually
Speaker 1: elevate the majors um. I think in tennis they've got
Speaker 1: different balls for all the different surfaces, and I think
Speaker 1: we were so focused on what the players want, um,
Speaker 1: But I think what the fan wants is for us
Speaker 1: to see them playing golf as we play golf, which
Speaker 1: is it's I mean, now, you're a long hitter, but
Speaker 1: on any part five that you and I have played
Speaker 1: many over the years, if you bust two, maybe you'll
Speaker 1: be in a green side trap. It's not three would
Speaker 1: four iron two or part five that's not a par five.
Speaker 1: So if you had a ball that would reintroduce the
Speaker 1: actual concept of a par five, the long part four,
Speaker 1: the long part three. I think I think that would
Speaker 1: be a real positive for golf. And if and if
Speaker 1: it only happened at the four Majors, the special and
Speaker 1: the others were viewed more as entertainment, I'd be I
Speaker 1: think it would be cool. Yeah, it's these macro issues
Speaker 1: are so interesting. But did you have a chance to
Speaker 1: watch Jordan Spieth the Jordan's Spief experience on Sunday? I
Speaker 1: mean that it's just never boring, Like he looks like
Speaker 1: he's shooting forty for any nine holes of golf he plays.
Speaker 1: You actually can't believe when you look at a borders,
Speaker 1: look at a boardings, he's eight under nine under a
Speaker 1: could possibly win the tournament. It's just bizarre, actually bizarre.
Speaker 1: I don't see how this particular golf, these plane could
Speaker 1: possibly hold up at Augusta National well. And he has
Speaker 1: he has his period. Not that we're not rooting for him,
Speaker 1: because we are. We are, I know, and like he
Speaker 1: hit it, it's just he's so mental. I mean, hit
Speaker 1: a bunch of greens and regulation on Sunday, but then
Speaker 1: he missed three of the last four, just like you
Speaker 1: know bay Hill. He had all those one puts and
Speaker 1: then he missed all those puts coming down the stretch
Speaker 1: and um, seventy first hole really tough. Part three at
Speaker 1: Valve Spars flags it best shot of the day and
Speaker 1: missus like what a six seven foot or like Jordan,
Speaker 1: it's exhausting, it's painful, and I got I got one,
Speaker 1: I got one more ball. Question for you, hopefully know
Speaker 1: a lot of people. What what did you see Bryson's
Speaker 1: joke thing about, you know, his proposal for the USGA
Speaker 1: and then he swings like Grandma, yeah I did what? What? What?
Speaker 1: What did you think of that? Bryson is so fascinating.
Speaker 1: I mean I've actually been talking to him a fair
Speaker 1: amount all these events. You know, some guys don't want
Speaker 1: to talk about anything bright. I mean, I'm asking Bryson
Speaker 1: tough questions about a lot of things. He just answers them,
Speaker 1: which I like, of course, and that's neat. Does he
Speaker 1: have handers around when you do that? He does, but
Speaker 1: I just ignore them. I just walked right up to
Speaker 1: Bryce and we have you know, I've been covering him
Speaker 1: a long time, and that's Bryson's cag. I mean, he
Speaker 1: knows I'm writing this book about about live golf in
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour, and I think he's obsessed with status
Speaker 1: and he wants to be a voice in the book.
Speaker 1: But that's fine as long as and he gives me
Speaker 1: like really good answers. There's I have a strong BS detector,
Speaker 1: and I feel like he's he's being really straight with me.
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, the handlers are always around, but I
Speaker 1: just don't even make eye contact with them. But um,
Speaker 1: and he's playing terrible golf. I mean he's he's finishing
Speaker 1: like forty six, forty seven, but he's trying hard out there, man,
Speaker 1: I mean I I did. My least favorite part of
Speaker 1: this job is the driving range vigil. When you want
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody and they're there, you know it's
Speaker 1: after the round and you're like, oh, they're gonna have
Speaker 1: one bag of balls, and he keeps setting this guy
Speaker 1: back for more and more balls. I mean, um, you know,
Speaker 1: he was there till dark. And it's not like he's
Speaker 1: not putting in the same amount of time. He's just
Speaker 1: not getting the results. But the thing about Bryson is
Speaker 1: he's just and you see this in all the things
Speaker 1: he does on social media. He's just not quite as
Speaker 1: funny as he thinks he is. And I mean the
Speaker 1: usg bit could have been good, but it wound up
Speaker 1: being a little cringe e And that that's kind of
Speaker 1: like a lot of the things he does. I guess
Speaker 1: it's it's cool that he puts himself out there and
Speaker 1: he's he's trying to engage his fans, and he's he's
Speaker 1: trying to, you know, be a content creator. But it's
Speaker 1: just always like slightly off. But um, you know, I
Speaker 1: guess I guess you got to applaud the effort. I
Speaker 1: mean we want we want the fans too, I mean
Speaker 1: want the players to engage his fans, we want them
Speaker 1: to embrace social media. I mean, Bryson does all that,
Speaker 1: but it's just it's I don't know, it's just it's
Speaker 1: just like two degrees away from being like really good.
Speaker 1: But um yeah, I mean, yeah, he's getting He's the
Speaker 1: loudest voice against against the rollback for sure, because you know,
Speaker 1: he feels personally oppressed and he's a guy who's who's
Speaker 1: devoted his entire professional career to finding new advantages and
Speaker 1: and exploiting um any little thing he can, and it
Speaker 1: just feels like they're stunting his progress. But he does
Speaker 1: look good. I mean, he's he's lost a lot of
Speaker 1: the weight. He looks strong. I mean, he looks thick
Speaker 1: but not bloated, and he looks a lot healthier than
Speaker 1: when he first embraced. He went down that road of
Speaker 1: just trying to bulk up. So he just remains an enigma.
Speaker 1: But I do like watching him play the game, and
Speaker 1: I do appreciate that he's still obsessed with golf and
Speaker 1: he's still trying to get better at it, even though
Speaker 1: the evidence is to the contrary. He should be in
Speaker 1: his alan. He should be in his prime trying to
Speaker 1: get better at it. He should absolutely be in his prime.
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, it's true. Something really, really really weird
Speaker 1: is going down that we don't know. But just so
Speaker 1: just to pop on something that you just said, you
Speaker 1: see to me Bryson mocking the USG as you say,
Speaker 1: you know he's off by two dukeree Is he thinks
Speaker 1: it's funny. It's not really funny. But to be sort
Speaker 1: of serious about it, his career is defined by two things.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the great muscle packing and weight gain.
Speaker 1: You know, aside the US Amateur win, the US Open win,
Speaker 1: those are the great championships of the USGA. And to
Speaker 1: be so disrespectful to an organization that what they've gotten
Speaker 1: a lot wrong. And I'm not standing here as a
Speaker 1: usg committeement or anything remotely like that, but they do
Speaker 1: create the game by which he has been able to
Speaker 1: separate himself from the crowd as an amateur and as
Speaker 1: a professional. And I don't know. I know he's trying
Speaker 1: to be funny, but I don't think it's funny at all.
Speaker 1: I think it's dumb, and I think it's disrespectful, and
Speaker 1: I think it and I think it's why a lot
Speaker 1: of people are just sort of annoyed at live golf,
Speaker 1: because I think the live people want to do what
Speaker 1: they want to do, they should do it, and it's great.
Speaker 1: I don't personally think it's great, but it's a free world,
Speaker 1: you know, is a free world. I think Bryce and
Speaker 1: d Shambo I don't even like to use the word should,
Speaker 1: but I'm using it here. Uh, could be a little
Speaker 1: bit more respectful to the organization that created these championships
Speaker 1: that have really defined his golfing life. I find it offensive, really,
Speaker 1: It's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I always appreciate
Speaker 1: your traditionalist take. I mean, it would be very clever
Speaker 1: pr if if live off. All the players just said,
Speaker 1: we love the USGA. They're the stewards of the game.
Speaker 1: We believe in them, and we're gonna follow their lead
Speaker 1: and whatever they want us to do, we're gonna do.
Speaker 1: Because it would be so counterintuitive, right, you know, they've
Speaker 1: they've they've got all these spiky personalities and these and
Speaker 1: these guys like to rage against the machine like that
Speaker 1: would that would be a way to get in the
Speaker 1: good graces of certain golf fans. But it's just not
Speaker 1: in their DNA. I mean, it's just not you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny ways you say that, Alan, because like you know,
Speaker 1: I've talked to Norman a lot over the years. I
Speaker 1: know you have as well, and of course he's very
Speaker 1: critical to PJ Tour. I have never heard him say
Speaker 1: one critical thing about the RNA, Augusta National or the USGA.
Speaker 1: I never have. Yeah, and you know, for a guy
Speaker 1: who was pretty star crossing in the US Open, I
Speaker 1: mean he had a few chances too, it never did
Speaker 1: he could ever say this US of course joke is
Speaker 1: the set up here is a joke. Never I never
Speaker 1: heard him say anything like that. Yeah, you've talked about
Speaker 1: this very eloquently another podcast that And you know, the
Speaker 1: USGA had this this elevated position in the sport. They
Speaker 1: were your term. They were like the stern father who ruled,
Speaker 1: who lorded over all of us. And I think Norman
Speaker 1: still has that that reflexive kind of reverence, even though
Speaker 1: he is a muckraker and and he does like to
Speaker 1: stir the pot I and of course he came up.
Speaker 1: He was under the ages of the RNA coming up anyway,
Speaker 1: And I think the RNA, even more than the USGA,
Speaker 1: is held in the steam because it's these tweety old
Speaker 1: gents who invented the sport and um and so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh, that is interesting. But would this to be
Speaker 1: an appropriate venue for me and us to an extend
Speaker 1: and inventa to Norman Greg Norman, commissioner of the LIV
Speaker 1: Gulf League, to join us on NITA fourth and discuss
Speaker 1: his feelings about the us GA, the RNA, and gust
Speaker 1: A National. It would be unt I bumped into Norman
Speaker 1: out on the course during the pro am in Tucson.
Speaker 1: He was just there and he's always on the move,
Speaker 1: like he's a really hard guy to pin down. They
Speaker 1: don't bring him into the press room anymore. Like they've
Speaker 1: really tried to keep him away from reporters, which is
Speaker 1: probably a smart move because he has he just always
Speaker 1: takes the bait and he loves to he loved to
Speaker 1: pop off. But there he was, and so I walked
Speaker 1: up to him and I was like, Greg, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been trying to I've been trying to get ahold
Speaker 1: of you for a long time. And we had this
Speaker 1: moment last year in the parking lot at Portland where
Speaker 1: that was right after coming in hot after London. I
Speaker 1: got boot out of the press conference and he's looming
Speaker 1: over my shoulder like the grim Reaper, and we talked
Speaker 1: in them. We talked to the park about for half
Speaker 1: an hour of Portland and had a meeting of the
Speaker 1: mines and he was apologetic and about that whole situation,
Speaker 1: and I told him that I was doing this book
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to sit down with him. He said, okay, mate,
Speaker 1: we'll do it. You know, come to my office and
Speaker 1: Florida and we shook hands on it. And he's been
Speaker 1: dodging me ever since. And you know, I've texted him
Speaker 1: and he keeps saying I'd like to but you know,
Speaker 1: I can't not the right time. Everyone has a boss, Greg,
Speaker 1: no one has a boss, and so there they've pretty
Speaker 1: much muzzled him. But anyway, I don't I don't care.
Speaker 1: So I walked up to him. It's like, Greg, we
Speaker 1: got to talk. I got all these questions for you.
Speaker 1: He's like, I'd love to mate, but you know, and
Speaker 1: he had he had a cart. He's like, I gotta
Speaker 1: pick my son up, who was like fifty yards away.
Speaker 1: He's like, we gotta be over there. I said, okay, well,
Speaker 1: how about after the pro I'm like, I'll meet you
Speaker 1: in the lobby at the Ritz. We can sit down
Speaker 1: and have a drink. He's like, ah nah this afternoon slam.
Speaker 1: I said, okay, dinner, I'll buy you dinner. You can
Speaker 1: order the wine. He's like, I got a dinner thing.
Speaker 1: I said, fine, I'll meet you after dinner and we can,
Speaker 1: like I'll sit in your hotel room. I don't care,
Speaker 1: just tell me where and went. He's like a it's
Speaker 1: a crazy night. He's like I gotta go and like
Speaker 1: zooms away. It's like, well, I can't try any harder
Speaker 1: than I'm trying. But he just he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: talk I mean, no matter what Greg Norman says, people
Speaker 1: are going to pounce on it, and he has a
Speaker 1: tency to say the wrong thing anyway, So I it's
Speaker 1: there's no upside for him other than it would there's
Speaker 1: he could explain things in a detailed way. He could
Speaker 1: he could offer some depth and context. I mean, of
Speaker 1: course that it would be it would be helpful for
Speaker 1: my purposes. But I think he just the cost of
Speaker 1: benefit analysis. But if he slips up and says one
Speaker 1: wrong thing, I'm not in the gotcha business. But he's
Speaker 1: just done it to himself where you know when I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the top the live executives quit last year
Speaker 1: after Norman's quote about you know, the Jamaal Kashagi murder, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: we all make mistakes, like this guy like resigned in protests,
Speaker 1: you know, like there's there's actual raifications to his words,
Speaker 1: and so if he says the wrong thing, the stakes
Speaker 1: are just too high. So the chances been coming on
Speaker 1: need a fourth or slim. But I that you're putting
Speaker 1: it out into the universe, Michael, who knows it's worth
Speaker 1: a shot. But uh, anyway, So one of the pleasures
Speaker 1: of my trip to Tucson was that I've been reading
Speaker 1: your book, The Ball in the Air. I'm like eighty
Speaker 1: percent and done, and uh, what we're gonna do. That
Speaker 1: comes out next a week from today, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: do a special pod to talk about the book. But
Speaker 1: it's such a joy because it's such it's a very intimate,
Speaker 1: charming story and you're so immersed in the life of
Speaker 1: these these these golf lifers, and um, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: find some I gotta finish it today because it's I
Speaker 1: just like finishing books, and I want to see how
Speaker 1: it ends. I mean, I kind of I have some
Speaker 1: I have some insight on the life and times of
Speaker 1: your protagonist. But anyway that I thank Yeah, you can
Speaker 1: find time to read all you got going on, four kids,
Speaker 1: book job and the rest. But you are in plane,
Speaker 1: so that helps. Yeah. And actually on Frida Day night
Speaker 1: in Tucson, there were really long days and I came
Speaker 1: in a little rundown anyway, so I was like kind
Speaker 1: of doing room service and just not really venturing out.
Speaker 1: But I went out Friday night to this cool part
Speaker 1: of town. I think it's called the Warehouse District. It's
Speaker 1: near the University of Arizona. I didn't realize with Saint
Speaker 1: Patrick's Day until there was all these all these like
Speaker 1: people dressed in green and having a lot of fun,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, that's kind of fun energy.
Speaker 1: But I long ago stopped caring about like eating in
Speaker 1: restaurants by myself. I know some people are self conscious,
Speaker 1: you know, when you travel for a living, that's just
Speaker 1: what you got to do. So I wound up in
Speaker 1: this very bustling pizza place and I was reading your
Speaker 1: book and I've got like the greasy smudges on some
Speaker 1: of the pages to prove it and like, and I
Speaker 1: didn't realize it, but I was kind of on the
Speaker 1: way to the bathroom, so there's like a lot of
Speaker 1: foot traffic where my table was. And seven or eight
Speaker 1: people were like commented, I guess this is weird. She's
Speaker 1: someone reading a book. The days like if you're by yourself,
Speaker 1: folks are on their phone, right, Like that's how people
Speaker 1: pass the time, if you have to eat a mule alone.
Speaker 1: But to have a hardback book with kind of an
Speaker 1: elegant cover, he created a lot of conversations. I think
Speaker 1: I sold some books for you in Tucson. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: leave you this one thing out. And so the Farrelly brothers,
Speaker 1: great guys, great golfers. I don't know if they're great golfers.
Speaker 1: They're trying to pitch Bill Murray on a script. I
Speaker 1: think the movie was called Hall Pass. And they sent
Speaker 1: him and he has no Asian and he's got no anything.
Speaker 1: And they, you know, they got an address room on
Speaker 1: some island of South Carolina, probably just Kio or something
Speaker 1: up that way, Sullivan's Island. But anyway, they got the address,
Speaker 1: they sent Murray the script that they wanted him to read,
Speaker 1: consider the role to your point about piece of some
Speaker 1: mudge stains on the pages. The script came back about
Speaker 1: nine months to a year later. Every single page had
Speaker 1: a coffee staying on it or some kind of staying
Speaker 1: on it, a dog geared. He obviously read the whole thing. No, no,
Speaker 1: no anything. And I think it was Peter Farreley. I
Speaker 1: told me that was Bill Murray's way of passing. You
Speaker 1: know that he was going to do just sent it bad.
Speaker 1: But to me, you know, at least he took it seriously.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm looking at a Philip brothbook I'm
Speaker 1: reading right now, you know, it's a good feeling to
Speaker 1: look at something. It's actually it's got a little bit
Speaker 1: of you. Not to get too graphic here, but once
Speaker 1: you've read something physically. But now our son Ian barnburgers
Speaker 1: in a very avid reader. He reads. He does all
Speaker 1: his reading on not all all, but most of his
Speaker 1: reading on kindles. So anyway, it's a generational thing, is
Speaker 1: we're finding out anythings in life. Alan, thank you for
Speaker 1: for for representing the fire pit so well in the
Speaker 1: Uncharted Orders of Live Golf. It's an excellent report, and
Speaker 1: I know there's going to be a lot more where
Speaker 1: that came from, and nobody else is doing it. I
Speaker 1: had a period of my life. Uh, I've had I've
Speaker 1: had period some pere I followed golf excuse me, where
Speaker 1: I followed baseball obsessively, and within that I've had two
Speaker 1: periods where one the labor strife. This probably goes back
Speaker 1: to the early mid eighties. The labor strife was as
Speaker 1: interesting to me as what was happening on the field.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. It just really interested me. I'm
Speaker 1: not knowledgeable about it. About There was a guy, Murray Chats,
Speaker 1: who wrote it up for the New York times. And
Speaker 1: then much later in the Social McGuire period. Of course,
Speaker 1: there was the home run thing that was fascinating and
Speaker 1: I was way into that, but really the question of
Speaker 1: drugs in baseball, it was like a sideshow. Was unfortunate,
Speaker 1: but it was weirdly, weirdly fascinating. And I know that
Speaker 1: a lot of people have that for Live golf and
Speaker 1: what's happening right, They're really interested in what it says
Speaker 1: about the person who's either rooting or not rooting for
Speaker 1: Live to succeed. And I don't know, so I get
Speaker 1: it that people really can't get enough. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: this story that posted on our website, I mean the
Speaker 1: amount of engagement in the comments, it's twenty times when
Speaker 1: I could have gotten from you know, a Jordan's speed
Speaker 1: story at at the valvespart. And yet everyone says, I
Speaker 1: don't care about live golf, you know, I don't follow it,
Speaker 1: but they read the stories and they react to them,
Speaker 1: and so I think I think you're right. I mean,
Speaker 1: it is a it is a window into so many
Speaker 1: different things, and it is it's quite a big story
Speaker 1: in our game, and it's we're going to keep feeling
Speaker 1: it for years to come. So it's hard. That's my thesis.
Speaker 1: It's just hard to ignore. Whether I love it or
Speaker 1: hate it, it's hard to ignore. And yeah, it's going
Speaker 1: to reveal character. How you feel about it will reveal character,
Speaker 1: just like Bryson's, you know, dissing the USGA because they
Speaker 1: think the ball goes too far. I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: legitimate position to have, whether you agree with it or not.
Speaker 1: I know he's trying to be funny, but it just
Speaker 1: reveals something about Bryson. So this is a great you know,
Speaker 1: you know the Scott's except for a billion years. Golf
Speaker 1: addresses a person, they would say today, but golf addresses
Speaker 1: a man, and one's attitude about live undresses the person
Speaker 1: as well. All right, this was This is another fire drill.
Speaker 1: Thanks to the listeners. We appreciate your fidelity and we
Speaker 1: will be back in your ear soon. M for Michael Bamberger.
Speaker 1: This Allen ship next, that's the end. I'm that big
Speaker 1: and I played the win, made a fortune. When my
Speaker 1: ship game in, I ran the table, never thought I
Speaker 1: could fall. Then the winter time hit me like a cannon,
Speaker 1: the ball and now I can't shake this losing the stream.
Speaker 1: Every road I take is a dead end stream. I
Speaker 1: got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, Trying
Speaker 1: not to think what I'm thinking about. I got thoughts
Speaker 1: in my head, can't get them out. Trying not to
Speaker 1: think what I'm thinking about.