Speaker 1: Hey, it's it could happen here a podcast about usually
Speaker 1: bad things happening, all the bad things that are happening everywhere,
Speaker 1: but occasionally about good things happening and people doing cool
Speaker 1: stuff to make a better world. And this Lucky You,
Speaker 1: Lucky all of Us happens to be one of the
Speaker 1: latter kinds of episodes when we talk about good things happening.
Speaker 1: UH with me in the studio, which is more of
Speaker 1: an a femoral concept than a physical studio because there's
Speaker 1: a plague going on. Is James Stout and Garrison Davis
Speaker 1: co hosting the podcast Hello fellas, Greetings now today. The
Speaker 1: thing that we're talking about, UM, we we had about
Speaker 1: a week or so two weeks ago, represent a couple
Speaker 1: of representatives from the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club
Speaker 1: in Dallas, Texas come in UH and they had been
Speaker 1: providing armed security at a couple of different Dallas area
Speaker 1: protests against Christian nationalists. UM. I do recommend checking out
Speaker 1: those episodes. This week, we have one representative from that
Speaker 1: organization back on and what we'll be talking about is
Speaker 1: there have been a series of attempted sweeps in Dallas
Speaker 1: at a homeless camp UM and if you're not familiar
Speaker 1: with the concept. Basically, people who are experiencing homelessness set
Speaker 1: up encampments in order to live with some degree of
Speaker 1: comfort and have you know, their stuff with them. Um.
Speaker 1: These are generally in places like parks, under overpasses, that
Speaker 1: kind of situation, and periodically the city will come through
Speaker 1: and sweep them. The city's language is always very much
Speaker 1: focused towards we're trying to help them, you know, get
Speaker 1: into some sort of situation where they can find help.
Speaker 1: But what usually winds up happening is the city takes
Speaker 1: a bunch of people's stuff and throws it in the trash,
Speaker 1: often before extreme weather events. UM. It's a really gnarly
Speaker 1: thing to experience, and activists in a number of cities
Speaker 1: have experimented with different tactics to try and stop and
Speaker 1: delay sweeps. And what we've had happening lately over the
Speaker 1: last week in Dallas is representatives of the Elm Fork
Speaker 1: John Brown Gun Club have been showing up armed alongside
Speaker 1: activists with say it with your Chest Dallas, and the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that's been spreading on Twitter is of
Speaker 1: course the fact that activists have shown up with guns
Speaker 1: to stop the sweeps, and the Dallas Police have not
Speaker 1: shown up to do the sweeps. The thing that often
Speaker 1: gets missed in this kind of Twitter level discourse, although
Speaker 1: is covered in a pretty good Dallas Morning News article
Speaker 1: on the subject, is that there have also been activists,
Speaker 1: as I said, from the Say It with Your Chest movement,
Speaker 1: who have been showing up to help people, to provide
Speaker 1: laundry service, transportation, food and water. And essentially what they've
Speaker 1: been doing is trying to help people get things together
Speaker 1: and organized to move to a new location, um, in
Speaker 1: a manner that allows them to do so with like
Speaker 1: dignity and comfort and not get their stuff thrown out
Speaker 1: by the city or experienced violence from the police while
Speaker 1: it's happening. So, UM, that is the broad situation. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna say anymore, my elf. I want to introduce
Speaker 1: Danny from Say with Your Chest Dallas and Bubble from
Speaker 1: the um Fort John Brown Gun Club. Thank you both
Speaker 1: for being on the show, Thanks for having me, Thank
Speaker 1: you for having us. Um was that a broadly accurate
Speaker 1: summary of events? Um? Yeah, for the for the most part,
Speaker 1: the city has actually been sweeping several They're they're cracking
Speaker 1: down on houselessness, right now very very aggressive. And so
Speaker 1: it's not just that one camp that we were defending
Speaker 1: the other day, but um, the monday before we were
Speaker 1: defending another camp. And UM, I've never seen this many
Speaker 1: sweeps happen at one time, and I've been doing this
Speaker 1: for a little over two years now. I want to
Speaker 1: actually go a little bit into how your organization formed,
Speaker 1: But before that, do you have any kind of can
Speaker 1: you posit why the city has suddenly ramped up sweeps
Speaker 1: so aggressively in Dallas so uh, normally talking to the
Speaker 1: rest of the I've never I've never seen it happen
Speaker 1: like multiple times in a week. Usually they'll do one
Speaker 1: uh way a little bit, we'll hear a nose a
Speaker 1: couples later or something, but multiple in a week at
Speaker 1: different spots is definitely, UM, definitely new to us. UM
Speaker 1: As for why, the typical reasons are like, you know,
Speaker 1: the state there comes up in October, so they'll try
Speaker 1: to sweep then, UM, or they'll do it UM usually
Speaker 1: like a housing development UM and things like that, where
Speaker 1: like the land is brought up or you know something.
Speaker 1: But recently, UM, the motivations have been a little bit
Speaker 1: more unclear with the aggression Um, it's kind of the
Speaker 1: the city in terms of how they execute sweeps. It
Speaker 1: used to be that code compliance could not touch people's belongings.
Speaker 1: Reason certainly it has shifted to take everything, throw away everything. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we still don't know why it happening yet.
Speaker 1: It is certainly like part of a nationwide trend because
Speaker 1: we're having the same things happen in Portland increasingly. And
Speaker 1: obviously Portland and Dallas aren't the only cities where sweeps
Speaker 1: have been ramped up. Um. And of course you also
Speaker 1: have Oh gosh, I I just ran across the article
Speaker 1: today that like there's discussion in certain cities about like, yes,
Speaker 1: somewhere in Florida about like putting houseless people in like
Speaker 1: essentially an island compound and whatnot, like basically like a
Speaker 1: concentration camp. Right. Yeah, that's been also mentioned by people
Speaker 1: affiliated with like the Portland City Council in the Mayor's office.
Speaker 1: It's like essentially getting a concentrated collection of homeless people
Speaker 1: in one closed off area. And you're like, ha, I wonder,
Speaker 1: I wonder what they mean by that. Yeah, it's it's unsettling.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious because obviously I think what y'all are
Speaker 1: doing in Dallas right now is extremely important and you've
Speaker 1: been having a lot of success so far. I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about how your organization because
Speaker 1: we we chatted with the John Brown Gun Club folks
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago about how they started organizing.
Speaker 1: How did say it with your chest get off the ground? Um,
Speaker 1: so that was interesting. Stay with your Chest originally started
Speaker 1: along with a lot of orcs and Mutually Works in Dallas. UM.
Speaker 1: After George Floyd was more murdered back in June of
Speaker 1: m we started. Um. I was in Playo at the time,
Speaker 1: which is like a suburb that's where I grew up.
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, I wasn't playing at the time, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I, me and my friends were kind of
Speaker 1: like these suburban people can turn off their TVs and
Speaker 1: not really have to worry about the protest going on
Speaker 1: downtown and things like that. So we would protest on
Speaker 1: street corners and just yell at you know, white people
Speaker 1: in their Mercedes and you know, make them uncomfortable on purpose. Um.
Speaker 1: Then we started linking up with other Mutual Aid organs
Speaker 1: in Dallas, and you know it was just shifting food,
Speaker 1: trying to carry that stuff up north. Um and then
Speaker 1: uh then we um, well I started going to Camp
Speaker 1: Randa UM, which was like a probably the first and
Speaker 1: like it was a very solid example of a self
Speaker 1: sustaining houseless encampment where people we're just allowed to be
Speaker 1: and left alone. We're helping people a lot of them
Speaker 1: and recovery and things like that, and um, everyone looked
Speaker 1: out for each other. It was a really great community
Speaker 1: before the that was such a rare project. UM. Not
Speaker 1: to derail it too much, but I want to tell
Speaker 1: you guys about Camp Randa. Yeah, like that'ally organized on
Speaker 1: houses camp. The organizers outside organizers where there everyday helping.
Speaker 1: The camp itself was organized amongst themselves. They had political
Speaker 1: theory meetings, they had community meetings to solve issues and
Speaker 1: resolve inter personal problems, sucking rad um and it stayed
Speaker 1: together for nine months. It was it lasted for a minute,
Speaker 1: I know it was approximate it was over six I believe,
Speaker 1: but it lasted for a while at one location and
Speaker 1: then it had to move and then um the next
Speaker 1: location we ended up moving all the people to. They
Speaker 1: stayed there first all ten months before um the city
Speaker 1: sold the land and like some under the table deal
Speaker 1: and showed up and swept everybody. It reminds me quite
Speaker 1: a bit of a place I I worked out in
Speaker 1: Seattle for a while, Nicholsville, which was a plot of land,
Speaker 1: a couple of acres large where houseless people had set
Speaker 1: up basically built like a tiny home village for themselves.
Speaker 1: They provided solar power, um, they had arranged their own
Speaker 1: like trash pick up. Um. It was safe and uh,
Speaker 1: very well organized and very comfortable, like an actual fairly
Speaker 1: high standard of living UM, good level like good good
Speaker 1: wastewater treatment and all that kind of stuff. Um. Which
Speaker 1: existed for a couple of years before the city came
Speaker 1: in and swept it and destroyed everybody's houses and forced them,
Speaker 1: you know into again kind of a series of camping situations. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is you know, you get these It's it's very
Speaker 1: frustrating because there's this understanding that like, well, we want
Speaker 1: them in, and part of the understanding you get from
Speaker 1: a number of cities is like, well, we do want
Speaker 1: them in one place, and we want them in something
Speaker 1: that's more permanent than you know, a bunch of tents.
Speaker 1: But if they set that up on their own and
Speaker 1: have autonomy and have the ability to like exist with
Speaker 1: any kind of personal freedom. Then we don't want that,
Speaker 1: and we will send armed men and to break it up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like the city is like, oh yeah, well I don't.
Speaker 1: I genuinely do not think of Dallas wants to house people. UM.
Speaker 1: Otherwise the Office of Homeless Solutions simply would not exist
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't have a way to just have money
Speaker 1: sitting around UM, and all those people would lose their jobs,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's not housing people. You know, people
Speaker 1: are like, how do you do that? It's not hard,
Speaker 1: it's not difficult. The city is spending what two billion dollars.
Speaker 1: I'm renovating the Convention Center that could house every house
Speaker 1: this person in Dallas for years, you know. But but
Speaker 1: then we wouldn't be able to have all of the
Speaker 1: wonderful things. Someone who lived in Dallas fifteen years. I
Speaker 1: can remember one, maybe even two times when I went
Speaker 1: to the convention Center. What would we do? I think?
Speaker 1: Maybe one time? What's wrong with it to where we had?
Speaker 1: Like it's Dallas prioritizes developers or anything else, and that
Speaker 1: is more than UM a parent in how they treat
Speaker 1: the house's population. UM. They're definitely because it's like my
Speaker 1: my problem, right, Okay, if the city, the city is
Speaker 1: gonna do sweeps, that's something that I can't really necessarily
Speaker 1: stop them from doing on my own, but we can
Speaker 1: and alleviate some of the effects of you know, um,
Speaker 1: but when this is sweeping people in the heat like that,
Speaker 1: we're in the cold, elderly just aid people. It's like,
Speaker 1: y'all really are just telling them to die and the
Speaker 1: least you could do. And I've emailed Marcy Jackson, who's
Speaker 1: the community outreach chair for OHS, you know, She's been like, well,
Speaker 1: they can go to the shelter. It's it's about it's
Speaker 1: within three miles. Now, I'm like, you you're gonna walk
Speaker 1: three You're telling somebody who's elder than they able to
Speaker 1: walk three miles in a hundred and seven degree heat
Speaker 1: to get to a cooling station that is only open
Speaker 1: to like five Well, uh, there's a lot of cognitive
Speaker 1: distance in the city. Just for a little bit of
Speaker 1: reference too, because like we have cooling stations and stuff
Speaker 1: up in Portland and you have similar problems. One thing
Speaker 1: that is a benefit to folks in a place like
Speaker 1: Oregon is that after five six pm when like this
Speaker 1: cooling stations start to cool down. It actually does cool
Speaker 1: down here, Like it gets cool at night even when
Speaker 1: it's a hundred outside. That doesn't happen in Dallas during
Speaker 1: the Yeah, I've literally had it be triple digits at
Speaker 1: midnight and Dallas, Texas, like that's the place it is. No,
Speaker 1: so you're still it's still a threat to life and
Speaker 1: limb even when the sun's not beating down on you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes I was calling shelters. I know, certainly, like here
Speaker 1: we have a bunch of issues with shelters and cooling
Speaker 1: shelters and stuff like you don't have privacy, You can't
Speaker 1: bring your pets. They want you to look all your
Speaker 1: possessions up somewhere else. There are like a number of
Speaker 1: other things that really limit people's ability to feel safe accessing.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the same there, but like
Speaker 1: it's not that there's necessarily a place where someone would
Speaker 1: feel safe and I'm not going there. It's when I
Speaker 1: made that clear, pets are a big issue. And this
Speaker 1: is something that again when I was at Nicholsville, people
Speaker 1: would point out that, like folks would accuse them of
Speaker 1: being like abusive because they had a cat or a dog,
Speaker 1: you know, that was living with them in the encampment.
Speaker 1: And they'd be like, well, number one, like it's okay
Speaker 1: for me to live this way, but it's not okay
Speaker 1: for like a cat or a dog. And also just
Speaker 1: like do I not deserve companionship and love in my life?
Speaker 1: Like this is what this animal is one of the
Speaker 1: is one of the things that helps keep me. And
Speaker 1: I talked to a number of folks who got back
Speaker 1: into housing who were like, if we had not had
Speaker 1: our cat with us, like I don't know that we
Speaker 1: would have made it, but because just having that animal
Speaker 1: with us like helped, Like that's it's for the same reason.
Speaker 1: Everybody has animals, right, Like every single houseless person that
Speaker 1: has a pet, has a service animal, has a that
Speaker 1: is a service animal. As far as I'm concerned, would
Speaker 1: you separate somebody who is disabled from their wheelchair or
Speaker 1: would you separate somebody from there like their service animal,
Speaker 1: their dog that they need, you know, And it's like
Speaker 1: when you're out there, Um, I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of people have dogs for comfort, but also dogs are protection,
Speaker 1: they are security in such a dangerous environment, um, where
Speaker 1: people are always you know, like it's just it's just
Speaker 1: it is unfathomable how much trauma UM goes into being houseless,
Speaker 1: especially in Dallas, in places like dala. UM. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to ask you a little bit, so you have
Speaker 1: been Is this kind of the first collaboration this last
Speaker 1: week or so, let's say it with your chest has
Speaker 1: had with the the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club.
Speaker 1: Had you guys been working together prior to this? Uh? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like we UM originally met members of Elm Fork when
Speaker 1: UM Camp Ronda first started, uh back in UM and
Speaker 1: we were collaborating on like getting people's supplies, UM tents
Speaker 1: and things like that. I would run laundry UM with
Speaker 1: my org uh and like yeah, we were. We just
Speaker 1: you know, always collaborated to make sure like the people
Speaker 1: could get what they need if somebody had supplied somebody
Speaker 1: able to show up and we couldn't, you know, UM
Speaker 1: just working together. Yeah, And I'm curious, UM, could you
Speaker 1: kind of walk us through sort of how what you
Speaker 1: see is the benefit of having folks who are visibly
Speaker 1: armed UM for this kind of for these kind of actions,
Speaker 1: Like how did how did number one sweep defense tend
Speaker 1: to work? Before y'all were doing that, and how has
Speaker 1: that altered kind of the way in which you're seeing
Speaker 1: this activism like take effect UM as far as I know,
Speaker 1: people from members of ELM four because they have always
Speaker 1: shown up with UM firearms in some capacity, whether it's
Speaker 1: concealed or open, but UM there was a noticeable difference
Speaker 1: with the open carry UM. I know that back in
Speaker 1: February when one of our other camps was getting swept
Speaker 1: UM and they showed up like afterwards, we had a
Speaker 1: meeting with the director of UM HOMEO Solutions, Christine Crosley.
Speaker 1: She sucks UM and uh. She was like, people were like,
Speaker 1: we were hearing reports of people that were openly armed,
Speaker 1: and we want to we really care about the safety
Speaker 1: of like the unhoused residents out there. And I was like,
Speaker 1: they were more afraid of the ops then of the
Speaker 1: five people out here with with rifles. And that's that's something.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you're going to show up with twelve
Speaker 1: dudes with guns, what's the problem with some of us
Speaker 1: showing up with like a little something just in case?
Speaker 1: You know, the state should not be the only one
Speaker 1: to have access to firearms. That is very dangerous. UM
Speaker 1: but also I don't mean that in a to a
Speaker 1: kind of way. If that makes sensitive. Yeah, that does
Speaker 1: kind of bring up an interesting point, which is if
Speaker 1: you're showing as you're showing up kind of in this
Speaker 1: capacity with both activists to kind of help folks with
Speaker 1: their stuff, with with laundry and other needs, but also
Speaker 1: people who are are carrying are fifteens and wearing plate carriers.
Speaker 1: I imagine there's like a degree to which you are
Speaker 1: trying to give people a heads up before, just so
Speaker 1: they don't be like, oh, suddenly there's spokes with guns.
Speaker 1: What's going on? Right? Can you kind of walk us
Speaker 1: through the community outreach explaining sort of like how you
Speaker 1: how you actually go about letting people know what's going
Speaker 1: to be happening and stuff and and what the folks
Speaker 1: showing up are doing well when it comes to sweeps, um,
Speaker 1: And normally I focus a lot on just making sure
Speaker 1: that people are okay and defending them. UM. When I
Speaker 1: I do not necessarily like ask for work to show
Speaker 1: up with guns. I'm just more like I assume if
Speaker 1: y'all are going to be there, they are going to
Speaker 1: be um, you know, and sometimes there was usually the
Speaker 1: residents are like the residents have some of the residents
Speaker 1: have firearms themselves, you know, so they're like, well aware, Um,
Speaker 1: there are some cases where like people will get a
Speaker 1: little bit anxious about it, and you know, we kind
Speaker 1: of have to be like, if you really don't want
Speaker 1: the guns here, then that's fine, we can move them.
Speaker 1: It in the past with this track record, like usually
Speaker 1: the city kind of backs off a little bit when
Speaker 1: they know that y'all are actutely protected, you know, because um,
Speaker 1: the city is the city is a bully. They really
Speaker 1: do like picking on people who the most vulnerable of us,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, And so lately the guns have been
Speaker 1: seeming to have them back off a little bit. I
Speaker 1: know when they pulled up, Like when ELMP pulled up
Speaker 1: and hopped out the car with the rifles, all of
Speaker 1: the cops at we squatted up into like a little
Speaker 1: a little i don't know, pick circle and they started talking, uh,
Speaker 1: and they were genuinely like, what do we do hold
Speaker 1: on me when we haven't? You know? Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: I mean that's kind of the that's kind of the
Speaker 1: story as we're coming into it right now, which is
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be a sweep what is it
Speaker 1: five days ago now Friday? Yeah, almost a week and
Speaker 1: y'all have been showing up a couple of times in
Speaker 1: that period to help people get there, get things together
Speaker 1: and whatnot and get which is an important the fact
Speaker 1: that you're helping them kind of move and and doing
Speaker 1: it more in kind of their own time frame as
Speaker 1: opposed to the city shows up and you've got to
Speaker 1: like grab what you can or lose everything. Um. Is
Speaker 1: important because you're also you're not just showing up with
Speaker 1: activists with guns and saying like the city we're not
Speaker 1: going to let any like no one's going to move,
Speaker 1: and we're like we're we're drawing a line in the sand,
Speaker 1: which is not would not be a particularly safe call.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think my my main priority out there because
Speaker 1: there's a lot of black and brown bodies out there
Speaker 1: and people is making sure they are safe. And Um,
Speaker 1: even before this last one, like a lot of us
Speaker 1: were concerned about the guns because like we didn't want
Speaker 1: things to escalate, and we never know with police, sometimes
Speaker 1: they get really excited and sometimes they back off. It's
Speaker 1: really uh really don't know. UM, So we were also
Speaker 1: taking that into consideration. UM, and I was kind of
Speaker 1: like the unfork know, like listen and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of black and brown people out here, and you don't
Speaker 1: want to escalate anything and you know, put people in danger. UM,
Speaker 1: And it seems like this time the city I didn't
Speaker 1: really want to mess with that. So that's good, but
Speaker 1: it's always important to keep that in mind any time
Speaker 1: you have firearms population. And I'm curious, um Bubble, can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the how this kind
Speaker 1: of organizing is sort of different than the stuff you've
Speaker 1: been doing at at counter protesting events. Like what are
Speaker 1: kind of the different things that y'all are keeping in
Speaker 1: mind as you as you make action plans for days
Speaker 1: like this compared to when you know you're showing up
Speaker 1: to at a at a protest to kind of counter
Speaker 1: groups of Proud Boys or whatever. Yeah, it's pretty different, um,
Speaker 1: in that when we're doing security for marches or um,
Speaker 1: you know, protecting Pride events. Uh, it's not like a
Speaker 1: direct confrontation with so it's it's a bit it's a
Speaker 1: bit different. It's a little bit more high stakes. UM
Speaker 1: when we do stop the sweep things, you know, we
Speaker 1: want to we want to push back, but at the
Speaker 1: same um, you know, not be the first to cross
Speaker 1: any lines. Um. So it is, you know, it is.
Speaker 1: It is a more sensitive situation. I think it requires
Speaker 1: different kind of planning. Um. And of course there's there's
Speaker 1: all these bystanders, there's all the residents there who were
Speaker 1: there to help that we don't want to endanger in
Speaker 1: any way. Um, like Danny was saying. I actually had
Speaker 1: um what ended up being a pretty cool conversation with
Speaker 1: a resident afterward. But he was kind of an organizer
Speaker 1: in the camp and he was talking to me and
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I don't think we want the guns, like,
Speaker 1: we don't want any trouble. And I leaned over to
Speaker 1: him and I whispered to him, Look, we're just here
Speaker 1: with guns to try to get the cops to back off. Um.
Speaker 1: I think they're actually backing off now, because we've actually
Speaker 1: just heard the cops that we're going to leave. I said,
Speaker 1: I think they're backing off. We're gone, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: And he said, wait, wait, you know, don't leave yet,
Speaker 1: Wait till they leave. Um. And now that that's uh,
Speaker 1: I am interested, like as the uh, the actual folks
Speaker 1: showing up armed, bubble, do you guys have kind of
Speaker 1: a like standard set of responses and stuff that you
Speaker 1: work through ahead of time to kind of explain things
Speaker 1: to people and make sure everyone's on the same page
Speaker 1: in terms of how they're doing it. Um. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: have some of that worked out. That's an evolving thing
Speaker 1: where we're trying to standardize. Yeah, work a long time
Speaker 1: with a core group of people that knows each other
Speaker 1: really well. Um, so we have like seen each other
Speaker 1: at you know, dozens of these things, and we know
Speaker 1: how each other operate. With some newer people coming in,
Speaker 1: you know, we are working now on kind of standardizing
Speaker 1: those responses and uh, you know, sharing our past experiences
Speaker 1: and are thinking and all that. Um. Now, question for
Speaker 1: for both Slash either of you. As you've gotten more
Speaker 1: into doing sweep defenses, what have been some of kind
Speaker 1: of the lessons learned Things that have been like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we went into it thinking like this was a good
Speaker 1: idea and it turned out that like that doesn't work
Speaker 1: very well, so we've had to do this like just
Speaker 1: things that have kind of um, best practices that have
Speaker 1: kind of evolved over time doing this. Um honestly a
Speaker 1: lot of it A lot when when tensions are really
Speaker 1: high like that, UM, because you come to sweeps like
Speaker 1: I'm the one kind of like dealing with UM a
Speaker 1: lot of like overseeing and stuff like that, and when
Speaker 1: tensions are really high like that. Honestly, the best thing
Speaker 1: is harm reduction. Harm Reduction is at the pinnacle of
Speaker 1: it's at the core of like whatever we do UH,
Speaker 1: and part of that is meeting people where they're at
Speaker 1: UM and making sure that we UM help the people.
Speaker 1: I show up, I shift you not. One of the
Speaker 1: best things that we started doing is showing up with
Speaker 1: packs of Newports on God. It makes it a lot UM.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're going through trauma like that, UM
Speaker 1: and someone hands you a cigarette, that's something that not
Speaker 1: only helps you kind of regulate yourself when you're experiencing
Speaker 1: this high stress situation where you're being evicted from your
Speaker 1: home and you're gonna lose your stuff and you're afraid
Speaker 1: people are gonna steals, and it's a whole lot that
Speaker 1: helps bring people back and it makes it a lot
Speaker 1: easier for us to UM work with people and UM
Speaker 1: still maintain the bonds that we've created and maintain the
Speaker 1: levels of trust that we have with the community. UM. Literally,
Speaker 1: some simple things like handing out cigarettes, um, during because
Speaker 1: that's a way that we're like, hey, we're here for you,
Speaker 1: we know what you need. Yeah, and we're not We're
Speaker 1: also we're not here to like judge what's best for you,
Speaker 1: you know, and do some like nanny state ship like
Speaker 1: you need a cigarette right now, right like it's stressful,
Speaker 1: not really like hell, I would need a cigarette to
Speaker 1: you know. At that point, um, there was somebody who
Speaker 1: was like, you're asking people for newports. You need to
Speaker 1: stop doing that, Like that's really unhealthy. And I thought
Speaker 1: you were trying to say these people and it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say for starters. We're not Captain America.
Speaker 1: We're not no avengers, Okay. We are regular people fulfilling
Speaker 1: a responsibility. And that responsibility is to be there for
Speaker 1: our neighbors. That's how movements happen, that's how anything happens.
Speaker 1: And all of that is rooted in you know, indigenous
Speaker 1: um communalism and theory and stuff like that that I
Speaker 1: think is really important. It's just fulfilling that responsibility and
Speaker 1: being there for people and when it comes to because
Speaker 1: you know, we always try to provide folks listening in
Speaker 1: other towns and stuff who may be like inspired by
Speaker 1: this with options for how they might move forward on
Speaker 1: trying to replicate some of y'all's successes. If people are
Speaker 1: looking at okay, I would like to help do sweep
Speaker 1: defensive I would like to do, you know, work kind
Speaker 1: of like this in my own community. How do you
Speaker 1: recommend because obviously there's you know, how how to build
Speaker 1: organizations is another matter. But like, if you've got a
Speaker 1: group together to help folks, how do you recommend kind
Speaker 1: of starting the process of introducing yourself Because you can't
Speaker 1: just like show up and be like hey, like just
Speaker 1: be like, hey, we're gonna certainly not with guns, but yeah,
Speaker 1: and don't um. You have to develop a really really
Speaker 1: strong report with your community first, and you also need
Speaker 1: to make sure that's your community. Like you know, UM,
Speaker 1: I I've spent a really long time perioding UM relationships
Speaker 1: with the unhoused populations of Health Dallas, UM, and that
Speaker 1: took literal years, you know, UM. Expecting people to trust
Speaker 1: you off the bat, and expecting people to just like
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you're one of the good guys. It's
Speaker 1: not going to happen, especially if you're white, like honestly,
Speaker 1: if we be in if we're keeping in a book,
Speaker 1: because like, there's a whole lot of black and brown
Speaker 1: people out there in these vulnerable communities, and usually the
Speaker 1: white people that they see are the white people who
Speaker 1: are talking down to them and not treating them as
Speaker 1: human beings. The main thing that people, the people out
Speaker 1: there are need most is consistency from you, even if
Speaker 1: you don't even if one day you don't have anything,
Speaker 1: and you can just hand out water there with them
Speaker 1: and developing community that way, you know. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that people tell me a lot is that
Speaker 1: just it was it's been vering shocking to me how
Speaker 1: much I've heard it. Is people are like, you don't
Speaker 1: talk to us, it's like how other people talk to us.
Speaker 1: You talk to us like people, And the sheer amount
Speaker 1: of time. I was really shocked by how many times
Speaker 1: I've actually heard that, because I'm like, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't really think I talked much differently from anybody else.
Speaker 1: But then when I go out there and see other people,
Speaker 1: just random people handing out macgriddles or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a switch. Like if you were talking to
Speaker 1: a pet or to a child, you know, Um, like
Speaker 1: you pity something, people will not want you around because honestly,
Speaker 1: they don't want your pity. What they want is bottles
Speaker 1: of water. You know. If you're just only showing up
Speaker 1: when ship's going down, um, you don't actually have the
Speaker 1: people trust. And I think if anything, that hurts it
Speaker 1: a little bit because it's like, oh, I am only
Speaker 1: here to make you feel good about yourself. You want
Speaker 1: to be the one saving everybody. It's like you've got
Speaker 1: to dismantle your savior complex first before you do anything.
Speaker 1: And I think it's good to talk about, um, kind
Speaker 1: of how this actually how these actions actually look on
Speaker 1: the ground, because again, the thing that sort of has
Speaker 1: gone semiviral on Twitter has been the fact that like,
Speaker 1: you know, people with guns stood off the cops. But
Speaker 1: if you're imagining some sort of like big armed standoff,
Speaker 1: like that's not how this has looked. Which is the
Speaker 1: thing I liked about the Dallas Morning News article. Um,
Speaker 1: which we will do you mean the article or the
Speaker 1: opinion piece? Sorry, yes, UM, I am pulling it up
Speaker 1: right now just to have that we'll have it. There's
Speaker 1: an opinion already. Oh any time on howse people pop
Speaker 1: up into discourse someone is ready to write again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the the article, the article armed activists block Dallas
Speaker 1: workers from cleaning a homeless camp. That's an acceptable opinion.
Speaker 1: That's that's not the one I was talking about. That
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about is titled uh and it is
Speaker 1: a news article Dallas delays moving homeless camp after activists
Speaker 1: show up, which did a good job of not kind
Speaker 1: of over emphasizing the armed part and talking about the
Speaker 1: actual work y'all were doing in the community. I was
Speaker 1: kind of impressed with it, especially given the Dallas Morning
Speaker 1: News is most recent like general trends, shall we say,
Speaker 1: and considering their opinion piece they published yesterday. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: hadn't seen that one. Could you talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about how these these actions have actually on the ground
Speaker 1: during the day of Yeah, so on the ground, um,
Speaker 1: some people arrived very early, and you really never know
Speaker 1: when the cops in the city are going to show up.
Speaker 1: So Elm Fork showed up close to nine and they
Speaker 1: are already like four cops there, um, and that you know,
Speaker 1: that's unfortunate. We probably should have shown up earlier. We
Speaker 1: you know, if if we're going to go to protect
Speaker 1: the other activists, you know, you don't want to leave
Speaker 1: the unarmed activists exposed to um police violence. Um, but
Speaker 1: either way, you know, we we formed up. It was
Speaker 1: maybe two unarmed activists for every armed activists, and we
Speaker 1: discussed what to do. Some people decided to block off
Speaker 1: the streets with their vehicles. UM. The cops were there
Speaker 1: for a solid hour and a half before h Almost
Speaker 1: Solution or the Office of Homeless Solutions and Code Compliance
Speaker 1: started arriving. So by that time, UM, a good number
Speaker 1: of armed activists were there and the cops had been
Speaker 1: discussing amongst themselves, UM, you know, whatever it is that
Speaker 1: they were talking about. But when oh HS and Code
Speaker 1: got there, Uh, they talked with the cops for about
Speaker 1: thirty minutes and then they started leaving. During that time,
Speaker 1: the unarmed activists were packing things up, UM get you know,
Speaker 1: getting people ready to move if those people wanted to move. Uh.
Speaker 1: One thing to to kind of go back a little bit.
Speaker 1: One thing that we've learned carrying is it's very difficult
Speaker 1: to do the same things that we were doing as
Speaker 1: unarmed activists. UM. You know, we we don't really want
Speaker 1: to be carrying tents and stuff while also trying to
Speaker 1: negotiate you know, having a rifle in our arms. So
Speaker 1: oh uh, you know, there's kind of a division of
Speaker 1: labor there. But you know, before two hours had even passed,
Speaker 1: basically the sweep was called off. The city and the
Speaker 1: cops left and the mutual aid work continued throughout the
Speaker 1: rest of the day. Uh, ELM Fork had some members
Speaker 1: switching out, you know, some people had to go to work.
Speaker 1: Some people arrived around noon that was kind of the
Speaker 1: main switch out point and uh, you know a lesser
Speaker 1: number of people but still a significant amount stayed there
Speaker 1: until four or five pm. Whenever M four comes with guns.
Speaker 1: The main thing that I like to have them do
Speaker 1: is surveillance and be watching so that way we can
Speaker 1: focus on UM having other volunteers actually help people, you know,
Speaker 1: and like have them help them move and stuff. And
Speaker 1: the surveillance definitely helps because what happens when the cops
Speaker 1: leave and when the city leaves is that they'll still
Speaker 1: have people like watching UM and driving around and trying
Speaker 1: to surveil us UM and so having more eyes on
Speaker 1: that situation and having them know like, yeah, we're still
Speaker 1: here is really helpful. Great, UM, thank you. Did anybody
Speaker 1: else have additional questions? To ask James you had one
Speaker 1: or two more things. Yeah, I'm like, I'm interested in
Speaker 1: and maybe asking bubble this because I'm just looking at
Speaker 1: the pictures on the on the Dallas Morning News story
Speaker 1: And incredibly they didn't lead with a picture of you
Speaker 1: all sort of suited and booted in full battle rattle,
Speaker 1: which I think is good on their part. But how
Speaker 1: do you present an event like this? Right? Like, obviously
Speaker 1: I think we should probably mention that, Like, I'm guessing
Speaker 1: it's legal to open carry where you are, so you're
Speaker 1: not like immediately criming and therefore provoking a superfine confrontation
Speaker 1: with the police. Um. Although obviously the police are always
Speaker 1: turning up armed um and that always brings violence into
Speaker 1: the equation. But are you like masks? Do you full
Speaker 1: like this person I'm seeing is like masked helmet god
Speaker 1: plate carrier? H Is that Jeremany? How you present or
Speaker 1: is that left up to individuals? I want to Um,
Speaker 1: we try to be pretty uniform, but it definitely varies
Speaker 1: by action. I think the last time we came out armed, um,
Speaker 1: we were not in helmets and plate carriers. Um. But
Speaker 1: you know everyone has one now and uh, we discussed
Speaker 1: it beforehand we decided to go that way. Um, we
Speaker 1: try not to park directly where we're going to get seen,
Speaker 1: you know, if all possible, Um, because we do need
Speaker 1: to get out Europe, you know, walkover in all our stuff. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you know, for a lot of
Speaker 1: actions now, including security, that's kind of been our uh
Speaker 1: go to way of presenting. The full masts are very important.
Speaker 1: We've moved from like you know, medical style masks to
Speaker 1: all the clava style masks just to get more skin coverage,
Speaker 1: protect our identities better. Yeah, it makes sense. And one
Speaker 1: other thing I just wanted to ask, and perhaps like
Speaker 1: explaining in a context, it might might not be read
Speaker 1: of it in Texas, I don't know. Um, in California,
Speaker 1: at least you need two proofs of address to earn
Speaker 1: a firearm right. Um, and if you're unhoused you might
Speaker 1: not have those. And therefore people are alienated from what
Speaker 1: it's theoretically they're right. Um, whether you want to see
Speaker 1: that as a universe or right or constitutional right? Is
Speaker 1: that the case there? Or these people? But if they
Speaker 1: wanted to Texas doesn't give a fun Texas, you don't
Speaker 1: you don't have to file a four or four seven
Speaker 1: three to buy a gun in the state of Texas.
Speaker 1: My gun literally was just given to me by somebody.
Speaker 1: I didn't have to do a hidle transfer or nothing. Like.
Speaker 1: Guns are so easy to get in Texas. It's actually
Speaker 1: really scary private sale. You can basically do whatever you want. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is hard not to wind up owning a gun
Speaker 1: in the States. Easier than owning a place to stay. Definitely,
Speaker 1: way easier. Yeah, the country method okay, magnificent. Okay, well yeah,
Speaker 1: not the case in other states. And I guess to know,
Speaker 1: and and nothing that we've said here should be taken
Speaker 1: as legal advice, are e, how to protest or partake
Speaker 1: an armed activism, because that can vary, that varies wildly
Speaker 1: based on your zip code. And everything we've talked about
Speaker 1: today is a massive series of felonies and a number
Speaker 1: of other parts of the United States, like, you're not
Speaker 1: you're not going to be providing sweep defense in New
Speaker 1: York City in this manner. You know, you do this
Speaker 1: where I live in Borda, le show up into consideration. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so take obviously, I mean that's a big part of
Speaker 1: what you're saying, though, is you have to take the
Speaker 1: situation on the ground. You have to take the situation
Speaker 1: with these people's individuals into You can't just you can't
Speaker 1: just go in and impose like this is how we're
Speaker 1: going to do sweet defense. You have to go in
Speaker 1: there like being willing to learn and adapt because, um,
Speaker 1: this is not you know, your day to day life,
Speaker 1: and it is life for folks there, and you have
Speaker 1: to come in willing to learn and understand what they
Speaker 1: need rather than like what you think they need. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the we never know what the city is gonna show
Speaker 1: up with each time. Like the Monday sweep before this
Speaker 1: past one, it was all marshals. It wasn't even act
Speaker 1: like regular dp D. It was all marshals. They were
Speaker 1: ready to arrest. They had bulldozers and cranes and all
Speaker 1: types of ship um. And that was also that was
Speaker 1: kind of oftening because I was like, wow, y'all are
Speaker 1: being mad aggressive this time. I think we just pissed
Speaker 1: them off too much to the point where they were like,
Speaker 1: we have to be you know, meaner about it. Uh,
Speaker 1: I mean, but we hain't been arrested. Yeah, fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: I do want to win. I do want to mention
Speaker 1: one more thing. I know, we've talked about how this
Speaker 1: kind of pertains to Dallas, and you know, had the
Speaker 1: similar you know situations on increasing sweeps across the country
Speaker 1: in Portland. I think last month there was an episode
Speaker 1: on this show about a homeless encampment in Ohio and
Speaker 1: in terms of like similar stuff that has happened to
Speaker 1: kind of demonstrate this is like, you know, this is
Speaker 1: the thing going on all across the country. UH. There
Speaker 1: was a really interesting situation in Boise, Idaho earlier this
Speaker 1: year that we may want to cover more in depth
Speaker 1: in the future. But in January, when it was freezing outside,
Speaker 1: protesters and UH and homeless people launched an encampment in
Speaker 1: front of the Boise State Capital, UH to kind of
Speaker 1: both provide you know, some type of shelter and community
Speaker 1: to help keep each other warm, but also in front
Speaker 1: of the capital as like a protest to demand access
Speaker 1: to shelter um. You know, and when while in the
Speaker 1: middle of like a pretty bad housing crisis and as
Speaker 1: it's freezing outside, UH, people at the camp faced a
Speaker 1: lot of basically NonStop harrassment from the state, whether that's
Speaker 1: police or like state state police. UH. They also faced
Speaker 1: a lot of UH problems from far right militia groups.
Speaker 1: The Idaho Liberty Dogs showed up to harass people. There
Speaker 1: was you know, militia showing up with guns. UM, so
Speaker 1: you can see like another instance where something that you
Speaker 1: know arm where another instance where armed community defense could
Speaker 1: be UH could be a part in trying to keep
Speaker 1: of situations like that from not escalating if done properly. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if done improperly, that can escalate situations. It's up to
Speaker 1: you know, you have to make sure that you're with
Speaker 1: people who are you, who you know, who you trust,
Speaker 1: and who are responsible. But it's just it's it's another
Speaker 1: instance of stuff like this happening. UH anti fascists and
Speaker 1: other activists were able to push we're we're able to
Speaker 1: keep conflicts from these militia groups to be relatively low
Speaker 1: at at the at the encampment and after a few
Speaker 1: months and like courts were trying to shut the protest.
Speaker 1: That was unsuccessful because of certain laws around camping on
Speaker 1: on like capital grounds for protests. But after a few
Speaker 1: months the protest was able to end and the city
Speaker 1: is now been pushed by the protest to open up
Speaker 1: possibly hundreds of units of shelter in the near future.
Speaker 1: So you see other instances of of these types of
Speaker 1: protests that you know rely on, a lot of like
Speaker 1: radical mutual aid, a lot of resistance to the state violence,
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of resistance to far right
Speaker 1: violence actually being some like successful. Um, So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of places to learn from in this type of
Speaker 1: thing around homeless encampments and encountering state violence. Would recommend,
Speaker 1: uh it's going down, has a lot of good coverage
Speaker 1: of the Boys Idaho thing. So yeah, that's just like
Speaker 1: a whole whole other angle to this, to this sort
Speaker 1: of trend that we've been seeing the past year. I
Speaker 1: would like to say that you are not Fidel Castro.
Speaker 1: You know, you are not the revolutionary leader. You are
Speaker 1: not the one you know like, and you need to
Speaker 1: keep that in mind when you're moving in these spaces
Speaker 1: and doing this type of work. Is if your goal
Speaker 1: is to try and be like the guy you know, uh,
Speaker 1: that does way more harm than good and that's really
Speaker 1: important to keep in mind. UM and dismantling your savior
Speaker 1: complex as part of that. UM. Of course, in that case,
Speaker 1: you know, the house is people uh, residents were you know,
Speaker 1: consenting to it and things like that, but please do
Speaker 1: take into account the amount of danger that you are
Speaker 1: putting very the most vulnerable populations into. Um, it is
Speaker 1: not necessarily a good idea, We're morally okay idea to
Speaker 1: uh make houseless people into your people's army, you know
Speaker 1: that is not I want to make sure that everybody
Speaker 1: you know listening is also well aware of like, that
Speaker 1: is the wrong way to go about this. The people's
Speaker 1: army should be people like us, not the most vulnerable
Speaker 1: of us, because they are already fighting very hard. So
Speaker 1: that means that's like it's the same thing like saying
Speaker 1: why people should be at the front lines protecting black
Speaker 1: and brown people during protests. It's the same exact concept.
Speaker 1: You protect the most vulnerable of the group. You do
Speaker 1: not make them, um, you know, your army and try
Speaker 1: to convert them into something and be the leader of
Speaker 1: that either. Um, that is that is not the way
Speaker 1: to go about that. Yeah, if you're if you're if
Speaker 1: you're entering into this relationship with the plan that like
Speaker 1: this is a way for us to build power for
Speaker 1: whatever and as opposed to we're here to like help
Speaker 1: these people, Um, then you're you're putting them second to
Speaker 1: whatever your political goals are, which is bad broadly speaking,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I know I know at least in
Speaker 1: the case of the idea of of in the Ohio
Speaker 1: encampment that we talked about earlier this month, UM, and
Speaker 1: the IDA who want as well, a large number of
Speaker 1: people who are like leading up that project and in
Speaker 1: prominent ortization rules were houses people who are living at
Speaker 1: those camps. Like, it is very important to have people
Speaker 1: who are like you don't want to go in as
Speaker 1: someone with stable housing and be like, Okay, I'm in
Speaker 1: charge of this thing now. No, it's like the people
Speaker 1: who are actually experiencing it need to be the critical
Speaker 1: role in actually how it functions. Yeah, and there we've
Speaker 1: had not we but like there was somebody who tried
Speaker 1: to do that, um, and it definitely did more harm
Speaker 1: than good. Um. Putting your political goals over just the
Speaker 1: people is always going to fail every single time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: listen to the people. If they're not leading it, don't
Speaker 1: do it. You know, like at that point, your only
Speaker 1: priorities should be getting them what they need and defending
Speaker 1: them if necessary, trying to lead stuff and you know,
Speaker 1: have them putting them into more vulnerable situations than they're
Speaker 1: already at without like fully being transparent with people, or
Speaker 1: being transparent with all the risks involved, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's that's real, grimy, real, not okay behavior. UM. So
Speaker 1: that's just something I also want to caution people against.
Speaker 1: And all of that definitely roots back to dismantling your
Speaker 1: savior complex and there's um a lot of good um
Speaker 1: resources out there um for starting with that process. If
Speaker 1: you have not already some of them wrong with your
Speaker 1: chest Instagram, I'll kick it out and follow us or
Speaker 1: something I don't know. Yeah, yeah, do you wanna I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm I'm at out of questions personally,
Speaker 1: do we want to um? Uh end with kind of yeah,
Speaker 1: how folks can follow you and stay in touch with
Speaker 1: what y'all are doing or potentially even support you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we are at say it with your chest dt X
Speaker 1: on Instagram. UM. I also organized with the Dallas Liberation Movement,
Speaker 1: which is a bigger or that mobilizes across the nine
Speaker 1: thousand square miles of DFW. UM. I run that with
Speaker 1: three of my good friends and organizers. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: you can follow us at Dallas Liberation m v MT
Speaker 1: on Instagram. UM Oh if you're willing, able and financially stable,
Speaker 1: throw us some cash, lease and listen to black women.
Speaker 1: Listen to black and indigenous women. That's all I got,
Speaker 1: all right, um, bubble, did you have anything to add? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to have diverse collection of groups. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, Danny's a hero, she's out there almost every day. UM.
Speaker 1: For ELM Fork. We do a lot of trainings, we
Speaker 1: do a lot of classes, um that take up our resources,
Speaker 1: but we have these longstanding relationships so that we can
Speaker 1: support each other um when need be. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: take care of your take care of your spaces, take
Speaker 1: care of your communities. Like Danny said, UM, focus on
Speaker 1: the people in those spaces, wther that be uh and
Speaker 1: housed people or your own organizers and activists. You know,
Speaker 1: you gotta keep you gotta keep things safe. It's hot
Speaker 1: out here. There's been a lot of stress and and conflicts,
Speaker 1: and you always have to practice UM restorative justice and accountability. UM.
Speaker 1: And you know, just keep fighting, keep keep loving each
Speaker 1: other there all right, Well that's gonna do it for
Speaker 1: everybody here at It could happen here today. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: go go go do something good. It could happen here
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Speaker 1: for listening.