WEBVTT - The Unfair Coach 0:00:15.276 --> 0:00:24.876 Pushkin chariots of fire. So where does the power come 0:00:24.956 --> 0:00:32.476 from to see the race to its hand from? If 0:00:32.476 --> 0:00:35.636 you're into watching white guys run, the movie never gets old. 0:00:36.476 --> 0:00:38.316 Even if you're not into that. It has one of 0:00:38.356 --> 0:00:42.516 the best coaching scenes ever filmed. Harold Abraham's a British 0:00:42.556 --> 0:00:45.196 sprinter is about to run thee hundred meter final in 0:00:45.236 --> 0:00:49.636 the nineteen twenty four Olympics. His coach gazes out of 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.436 his hotel room window at the stadium next door. The 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:58.756 pistol sounds. The coach watches the sky over the stadium. 0:00:58.836 --> 0:01:02.676 Then he spies the British flag rising. That's how the 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:12.236 coach learns that his runner has won the gold. There's 0:01:12.236 --> 0:01:15.236 a reason the coach isn't inside the stadium watching the race. 0:01:15.916 --> 0:01:20.836 He's been banned because he's a coach. In nineteen twenty four, 0:01:21.156 --> 0:01:24.996 professional coaches are taboo. They're considered a form of cheating 0:01:25.636 --> 0:01:28.396 the steroids of the age. It's aught to do with 0:01:28.476 --> 0:01:31.916 this idea of this emerging gentleman amateur. So you were 0:01:31.916 --> 0:01:35.236 considered a gentleman if you were like upper class born 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:38.756 into money. Tigan Carpenter George is the co author of 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:41.236 a book on the history of coaching. It's one of 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:43.636 those subjects you don't really imagine there being a history 0:01:43.676 --> 0:01:47.156 of what would have been the sports being played in 0:01:47.156 --> 0:01:49.596 the early nineteenth century. So, I mean, the upper classes 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:54.956 would have been the typical cricket, fencing, rowing was quite 0:01:54.956 --> 0:01:58.956 a good one, Tennis, probably not tennis as we recognize 0:01:58.956 --> 0:02:03.556 it now. So there's a sport called pedestrianism which emerged 0:02:03.596 --> 0:02:08.036 sort of the early eighteen hundreds, basically walking races. They 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:10.436 were very lower class sports because there was lots of 0:02:10.476 --> 0:02:12.796 wagering and lots of gambling going on in there, and 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:15.196 the upper classes weren't interested in that. Let me can 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:17.156 let me stop you for a secon. Yeah, so you're 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:22.876 saying the lower class sport was pedestrianism. Yeah. So, And actually, 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:25.396 if you go back to the eighteen hundreds, they had 0:02:25.436 --> 0:02:29.876 stables of pedestrians, which was basically a group of men 0:02:30.756 --> 0:02:34.156 that would travel around the pubs of Britain and they 0:02:34.196 --> 0:02:37.956 would race against each other. Now some of the things 0:02:37.996 --> 0:02:41.276 were ridiculous, so it would be like five day races. 0:02:41.516 --> 0:02:44.476 It would be who can walk a thousand miles in 0:02:44.556 --> 0:02:47.036 the fastest time, and they would get people to wager 0:02:47.076 --> 0:02:50.036 and bet on this there's something really funny about the 0:02:50.116 --> 0:02:54.796 idea of a walking race being pub based. Oh yeah, 0:02:54.596 --> 0:02:56.996 so do they have to walk in a straight line? 0:02:57.316 --> 0:02:59.396 Oh no, No, they had like I mean, there was 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:05.596 arenas made for this. You know, this was big money. 0:03:07.356 --> 0:03:10.276 She doesn't even notice my attempting a joke to an 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:14.676 estorian of coaching pedestrians or no, laughing matter. Because they 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:17.436 were the first athletes to employ coaches. So they had 0:03:17.476 --> 0:03:21.636 specific diets, they had specific routines they were experimenting. They 0:03:21.676 --> 0:03:25.156 were getting their athletes to take god knows what because 0:03:25.156 --> 0:03:27.716 they thought that these concoctions would make them faster, and 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:29.796 it would be people would come to esteem to watch 0:03:29.876 --> 0:03:32.396 people walk around the track. Yeah, I mean, there was 0:03:32.436 --> 0:03:35.196 all different stuff. So when I say there was walking races, 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:39.676 but there was ridiculous things like backwards races, like jumping races. 0:03:42.636 --> 0:03:45.636 So coaching begins as an effort to get working class 0:03:45.676 --> 0:03:49.596 people to backpedal faster, but in the middle and upper classes, 0:03:49.876 --> 0:03:52.836 coaching just wasn't done. There was a belief, kind of 0:03:52.876 --> 0:03:56.076 in the early nineteen hundreds that the middle and upper 0:03:56.116 --> 0:04:00.396 class body was superior to the lower class body. Therefore, 0:04:00.476 --> 0:04:03.756 if it was superior, it didn't require any sort of 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:07.436 coaching or training because it was superior, so they could 0:04:07.436 --> 0:04:10.916 achieve what they wanted to achieve. But without this sort 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:14.756 of interference. I think it was seen as interference from 0:04:14.796 --> 0:04:18.316 coaching because that was what the lower classes did. By 0:04:18.356 --> 0:04:21.436 the time the British elite finally started to embrace coaching, 0:04:21.956 --> 0:04:24.356 it was less a change of sentiment than an act 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:27.196 of desperation. We did alright at the nineteen o eight 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:31.556 Olympics because we created the program. So when you've got 0:04:31.596 --> 0:04:34.596 things like tug of war a model boat racing, you 0:04:34.636 --> 0:04:39.596 know we did all right because we created that program. 0:04:39.756 --> 0:04:42.716 But once we started to compete against other nations, so 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:47.556 particularly sort of nineteen fifty two, after Helsinki nineteen forty eight, 0:04:47.596 --> 0:04:52.156 the other London Olympics, there's a real cool for something 0:04:52.276 --> 0:04:55.636 used to change. The British were basically losing it everything 0:04:55.676 --> 0:04:59.796 by the nineteen fifties. They hired coaches to fix the problem. 0:04:59.956 --> 0:05:02.796 One coach was appointed to improve the training of athletes 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:06.236 in the entire country. Part of his contract was that 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:09.636 for ten pound a week, so probably about seven dollars 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:14.516 a week, he could be rented out to Cambridge University. However, 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:17.676 if he was rented out to Cambridge University. He was 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:20.676 told that he had to use the service entrance to 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:24.356 enter the university because he was not considered a member 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:26.876 of staff, and that he could only speak to the 0:05:26.876 --> 0:05:29.916 athletes if they spoke to him first. This was the 0:05:29.916 --> 0:05:32.836 British idea about coaches, that there were a form of 0:05:32.916 --> 0:05:38.076 cheating or a sign of natural inferiority. The notion was 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:41.996 so highly transmissible that it in effected Harold Abrahams himself, 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:45.516 the same runner who in Chariots of Fire had hired 0:05:45.516 --> 0:05:48.636 a coach to help him win the gold medal. After 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:51.916 Abraham's running career ended, he was put in charge of 0:05:52.036 --> 0:05:55.076 all of British amateur sports. So he was happy to 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:58.076 employ a coach and use a coach all the time. 0:05:58.116 --> 0:06:00.836 It got him further in sport. But when he was 0:06:00.876 --> 0:06:03.076 on the other side of it, he then kind of 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:06.276 reverted to his amateur principles in the sense of we 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:10.396 don't like coaches, We control coach, which they know the 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:14.516 place the administrators are in charge, the coaches are their servants. 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:18.236 That's what they used to refer to them as. Now 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:21.716 I can see why some aristocrat might find coaching distasteful. 0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:25.636 People born on top always want for everyone else to 0:06:25.716 --> 0:06:28.316 just stay in their places. One way to do it 0:06:28.356 --> 0:06:30.156 is to make fun of people who try too hard 0:06:30.876 --> 0:06:33.636 and ban any edge that might help them to compete. 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:38.956 But the old aristocracy is dead. Now everybody thinks it's 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:43.796 good to try. Everybody competes, and the people who take 0:06:43.836 --> 0:06:53.076 their coaching most seriously the aristocrats. I'm Michael Lewis, and 0:06:53.236 --> 0:06:57.396 this is Against the Rules, a show about various authority 0:06:57.436 --> 0:07:01.596 figures in American life. This season's about the rise of coaches. 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:04.396 This episode is about what happens when the edge that 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:07.636 coaching gives you starts to feel a bit more like cheating. 0:07:29.396 --> 0:07:32.316 Earlier this season, we heard about the way science had 0:07:32.316 --> 0:07:36.516 transformed the coaching of pro baseball players, and not just them, 0:07:36.516 --> 0:07:40.276 but athletes of all kinds. Baseball was just the cleanest 0:07:40.316 --> 0:07:43.796 case study of how good players could be transformed into 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:46.796 great ones. It's all described in a book called The 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:50.156 MVP Machine, which talks about the teams that led the way. 0:07:50.436 --> 0:07:53.676 The Astros were really the first team that fully embraced it, 0:07:53.756 --> 0:07:58.956 that invested more heavily in the technology. And we're really 0:07:58.956 --> 0:08:02.276 pretty ruthless when it came to cleaning house and saying 0:08:02.316 --> 0:08:05.156 we're going to bring in people who are receptive to 0:08:05.356 --> 0:08:08.916 these new ideas, and we're not going to give undue 0:08:08.916 --> 0:08:12.876 doubt friends to tradition and experience. This is Ben Lindbergh. 0:08:13.356 --> 0:08:16.476 He's the co author of the MVP machine, at the 0:08:16.516 --> 0:08:19.956 center of which sits the Houston Astros. The Astros have 0:08:20.156 --> 0:08:23.956 been really cutthroat in all kinds of ways. They've looked 0:08:23.956 --> 0:08:32.316 for advantages that other teams were wary of. Back in 0:08:32.396 --> 0:08:36.276 twenty twelve, the Astros hired a new general manager named 0:08:36.316 --> 0:08:39.116 Jeff Lunow. He was one of the new wave of 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:43.756 moneyball guys changing baseball, and maybe even more fanatical about 0:08:43.876 --> 0:08:47.116 data than the original moneyball guys. He had been a 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:50.316 data geek and consultant in Mackenzie but went on to 0:08:50.356 --> 0:08:53.956 help run the Saint Louis Cardinals, and when lu Now 0:08:54.036 --> 0:08:58.636 came to the Astros, he brought science and technology with him. 0:08:58.796 --> 0:09:02.436 The astros new coaches could do things like turn a tiny, 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:05.876 light hitting second baseman named Jose Altuve into a home 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:10.996 run hitting league MVP. They turned several average pitchers into stars. 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:19.996 In May twenty seventeen, the Astro's bench coach Alex Cora 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:24.716 was working with the Astro's most famous player, Carlos Beltran. 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:28.836 Beltran was in decline. He was forty years old and 0:09:28.876 --> 0:09:31.676 had been in the big leagues for twenty years now. 0:09:31.716 --> 0:09:35.836 He was struggling to hit. Desperate for help, any kind 0:09:35.876 --> 0:09:42.876 of edge, The Astros coach suggests, how about we use 0:09:42.956 --> 0:09:46.676 this technology we already have, but to steal the opposing 0:09:46.756 --> 0:09:51.676 catcher's signs, so you know what's coming. Fastball, curveball, slider. 0:09:53.196 --> 0:09:55.956 One thing leads to another, and soon the Astros coaching 0:09:55.996 --> 0:10:00.196 staff has installed a TV monitor beside the dugout. It 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:03.116 displays nothing but the feed from the center field camera. 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:08.436 The Astros management has written a software program to decode 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:11.956 the opposing catchers signs, which they give to the coach. 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:15.796 The coach helps the players set up a signaling program 0:10:16.716 --> 0:10:19.476 that's an old technology. The Astros in the dugout bang 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:23.556 on a trash can. No bangs means fastball, one bang 0:10:23.636 --> 0:10:30.116 means curveball, two bangs means slider, and so on. Unlike 0:10:30.116 --> 0:10:33.756 the other hitters in professional baseball, the Astros hitters now 0:10:33.796 --> 0:10:36.516 know what's coming. That year they won the World Series, 0:10:37.316 --> 0:10:39.196 people were calling them one of the greatest teams in 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:42.716 history and It's a difficult thing to separate because the 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:47.916 Astros are a very talented team who succeeded in legitimate ways, 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:51.076 but we're also cheating. It's funny because if you have 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:55.076 an organization that is succeeding because of its informational advantages, 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:59.396 because if it's always looking for the informational edge, it 0:10:59.476 --> 0:11:02.716 is just a hop, skip and a jump to let's 0:11:02.756 --> 0:11:07.196 get their signs. Yes, you know, let's use technology to 0:11:07.356 --> 0:11:11.956 actually infiltrate the other organization. Yes. And the camera that 0:11:12.156 --> 0:11:15.316 they were using to relay the signs in real time, 0:11:15.476 --> 0:11:18.196 a camera that was placed in the outfield was actually 0:11:18.276 --> 0:11:22.356 a camera that was installed legally for player development purposes. 0:11:22.996 --> 0:11:25.756 We might never have known how the Astros were using 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:28.916 their center field camera, but in the fall of two 0:11:28.796 --> 0:11:32.636 thousand and nineteen, a former Astros pitcher told a reporter 0:11:32.716 --> 0:11:35.996 what had been going on. The commissioner of Major League 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:41.316 Baseball opened an investigation and published its findings. Then all 0:11:41.436 --> 0:11:44.236 hell broke loose. In the words of Major League Baseball 0:11:44.236 --> 0:11:48.156 Commissioner Rob Manfred, the Houston Astros are currently undergoing a 0:11:48.276 --> 0:11:52.716 quote really really thorough investigation into the reports that the 0:11:52.756 --> 0:11:56.516 team used cameras and other technology to steal pitching signs 0:11:56.796 --> 0:11:59.196 from the opposing teams. Now the story, the ESPN was 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:02.876 on it, Sports Illustrated was on it, The world was 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:06.036 on it. The Houston Astros went from being the most 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:10.956 envied team in baseball to social pariahs, booed wherever they went. 0:12:11.596 --> 0:12:14.156 But this was about much more than a team's reputation. 0:12:15.476 --> 0:12:19.076 Could you just describe what happened on August the fourth, 0:12:19.076 --> 0:12:22.876 twenty seventeen. Yeah, In August four, twenty seventeen, Mike was 0:12:22.916 --> 0:12:27.036 brought in in the fourth inning. The first pitcher had struggled. 0:12:27.476 --> 0:12:30.596 This is a guy named Ben Macellis. He's the lawyer 0:12:30.636 --> 0:12:34.436 for former Major League pitcher Mike Bolsinger who's suing the 0:12:34.476 --> 0:12:40.236 Houston Astros. So Mike at that point was a middle reliever. 0:12:40.876 --> 0:12:45.476 He threw twenty nine pitches. Of the twenty nine pitches, 0:12:45.516 --> 0:12:47.756 there were bangs, which indicated that it was going to 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:50.276 be a breaking ball. The bang was sent from the 0:12:50.356 --> 0:12:53.076 dugout of the Astros by banging on a trash can 0:12:54.196 --> 0:12:56.436 to the batter to signify what pitch was going to 0:12:56.516 --> 0:12:59.436 be thrown. And so there were forty percent of his 0:12:59.516 --> 0:13:02.756 pitches there were bangs on if you're wondering whether a 0:13:02.796 --> 0:13:05.476 big league pitcher has ever before hired a lawyer to 0:13:05.596 --> 0:13:09.796 sue an opposing team for the behavior of their coaches. Well, no, 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:13.156 this is a first, But then the coaches have never 0:13:13.196 --> 0:13:15.556 been able to generate this kind of edge. It was 0:13:15.596 --> 0:13:18.716 a disastrous outing, and after a performance that was so 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:22.556 embarrassing like that, the team lost confidence him. Frankly, all 0:13:22.596 --> 0:13:25.636 scouts in the major's lost confidence in him. He was 0:13:25.676 --> 0:13:29.276 demoted to the minor leagues. Played well right after that 0:13:29.316 --> 0:13:32.076 in the miners, but then couldn't find work in the 0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:35.076 majors because he was viewed as having lost his last 0:13:35.076 --> 0:13:38.156 shot that game. And for all Mike knew until recently, 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:41.156 he just thought he couldn't perform that day. So he 0:13:41.196 --> 0:13:43.516 did in the moment, did he have any sense that 0:13:43.596 --> 0:13:46.876 anything peculiar was going on. He believed that they were 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:51.756 the greatest team he's ever played against. He was just, 0:13:52.316 --> 0:13:55.196 you know, shocked that day. He would say that it 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:57.476 seemed that they knew the pitches that he was throwing, 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:00.396 but he attributed it to their great skill and their 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:04.076 great determination and being a great team, and that he 0:14:04.156 --> 0:14:11.276 just didn't have what it takes anymore. Mike Bolsinger was, 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:15.876 in baseball terms, a nobody. The astros were the elites. 0:14:16.836 --> 0:14:18.756 When you're a nobody and you go up against a 0:14:18.756 --> 0:14:21.836 member of the elite and you lose, well, it just 0:14:21.916 --> 0:14:25.956 confirms you're not good enough. You assume you can't compete. 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:29.676 You never even know that the coach basically rigged the 0:14:29.716 --> 0:14:34.756 game with some software, a camera and a trash candleid. 0:14:35.636 --> 0:14:38.236 The question then is just how many games in life 0:14:38.236 --> 0:14:55.596 can be rigged? So thus the study of how people 0:14:55.796 --> 0:14:58.396 talk is of course, you know, it's as old as 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:03.756 people basically. Mike Norton, psychologist, professor at the Harvard Business School, 0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:07.556 he's been studying the way people talk and thinking about 0:15:07.556 --> 0:15:09.676 how they might do it better. A lot of the 0:15:09.756 --> 0:15:14.396 research on conversation is kind of about like underlying grammar, 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:16.916 you know, so it's sort of what are the rules 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:20.236 of language on how it works and which words come 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:23.156 where and why in German are they over here? Which 0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:26.236 is totally fascinating. But you could read all of that 0:15:26.316 --> 0:15:29.756 and still have absolutely no idea what you're supposed to 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.076 say to someone when you're meeting them for the first time. 0:15:32.196 --> 0:15:35.836 Like there's no guidance, there's no help for us in 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:37.836 any of the things that we're trying to get done, 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:41.996 which is crazy because we talk all day, every day. 0:15:42.036 --> 0:15:47.796 It's the number one thing that we do. We talk, 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:51.196 but we don't know how to do it effectively. But 0:15:51.316 --> 0:15:55.236 now there are new piles of data, truly massive numbers 0:15:55.236 --> 0:15:58.836 of sales calls, speed dates, Twitter fights, and so on, 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:02.916 all recorded. I talked about this a little in the 0:16:02.996 --> 0:16:06.836 last episode about social scientists who have new computing tools 0:16:06.876 --> 0:16:11.076 that make it easy for them to see patterns analyze them. 0:16:11.116 --> 0:16:15.036 When you study people's conversation, you discover a funny thing. 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:18.596 People who are just trying to be liked and respected 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:22.356 have no clue how to do it. They make all 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:27.636 kinds of mistakes. Humble bragging, for instance. There's two kinds. Actually, 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:32.196 there's complaint brags and humble brags. Complaint brags are this 0:16:32.396 --> 0:16:35.956 whenever a celebrity on Twitter or Instagram writes ug dot 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:39.236 dot dot whatever comes after that as a humble bragg 0:16:39.516 --> 0:16:41.996 to search for it. So they wrote they wrote something 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:44.676 like ug dot dot dot my hand is so sore 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:49.956 from signing so many autographs. It was just the best, 0:16:50.716 --> 0:16:54.596 the best. So that's the complaint brag, right, Oh, all, 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:56.396 I want to do is tell you my hand hurts, 0:16:56.876 --> 0:16:59.436 and then the other thing. And the humble brag is 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:02.076 the one which is almost more common with celebrities, which 0:17:02.116 --> 0:17:05.476 is the um so honored to be on stage with 0:17:05.556 --> 0:17:10.716 Bono to receive this award. So that's a humble brag. 0:17:11.196 --> 0:17:14.276 Mike Norton set out two years ago to study it scientifically. 0:17:14.996 --> 0:17:19.276 He worked with two other psychologists, Oval Sayser and Francesca Gino. 0:17:20.676 --> 0:17:23.956 They conducted weird experiments, like having a person in a 0:17:23.996 --> 0:17:26.676 coffee shop try to get other people to sign a petition, 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:30.836 but in some cases sprinkling into her chitchat a humble brag. 0:17:31.636 --> 0:17:35.716 Other times she just bragged. It turned out people were 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:37.876 more likely to sign the petition if she just bragged. 0:17:39.676 --> 0:17:43.436 Mike and his colleagues call their paper humble bragging a 0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:49.476 distinct and ineffective self presentation strategy. Their case was airtight. 0:17:50.676 --> 0:17:52.836 If you want people to like or respect, you, don't 0:17:52.916 --> 0:17:58.516 humble brag. We don't love people who bragg, but we 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:00.676 like them more because at least they're being honest, right, 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:03.596 at least they're just saying I'm awesome. It's these humble 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:06.276 braggers that are these kind of phony and sincere people 0:18:06.276 --> 0:18:11.956 that really bother us. It's a given how much conversation 0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:16.436 happens that people are pursuing this wily, inefficient strategy. It's 0:18:16.516 --> 0:18:22.196 extraordinary how common bad strategies are. It really is, because 0:18:22.196 --> 0:18:25.076 you'd think if we practice this from the time where two, 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:28.436 you know, all day every day, we would have figured 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:31.596 out what works and what doesn't. But part of the 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:35.036 reason we don't is because people tend to be pretty polite. 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:38.796 So if you humble brag, I'm very unlikely to call 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:41.636 you out on it. So you think it worked now. 0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:43.116 Later on, I'm going to go make fun of you 0:18:43.156 --> 0:18:45.316 to other people, but you're not going to know that 0:18:45.356 --> 0:18:48.996 I did that. And that's why we're bad at talking. 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:51.716 In spite of how important it is and how much 0:18:51.756 --> 0:18:55.716 we do it, we don't get enough direct feedback. A 0:18:55.716 --> 0:18:58.876 handful of researchers now study how people talk and the 0:18:58.956 --> 0:19:03.076 strategies they use to be liked and respected. They've uncovered 0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:06.716 good strategies and some bad ones, and it was probably 0:19:06.876 --> 0:19:10.116 only a matter of time before somebody real all this 0:19:10.236 --> 0:19:14.636 insight could be used to coach people how to talk. 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:22.956 Most of social life, we're better at perceiving strengths and 0:19:22.996 --> 0:19:27.236 weaknesses and others than executing those same things ourselves. We 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:30.036 give different advice to other people than we would enact 0:19:30.076 --> 0:19:33.516 ourselves in that same situation. That's why coaches and third 0:19:33.516 --> 0:19:37.476 party observers are so helpful. This is Alison Brooks, another 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:40.596 psychologist at the Harvard Business School. You heard her at 0:19:40.596 --> 0:19:43.876 the end of the last episode. She just created a 0:19:43.916 --> 0:19:47.116 new class to coach her students. It's called how to 0:19:47.196 --> 0:19:49.156 Talk Good. Her we're not good at taking our own 0:19:49.156 --> 0:19:53.436 observations and applying them to ourselves observations and judgments. Alison 0:19:53.516 --> 0:19:56.196 knew how she wanted to open her class with one 0:19:56.316 --> 0:20:00.796 powerful tool she could hand students to improve their conversational ability, 0:20:01.316 --> 0:20:04.396 topic selection. So we have this paper about that's the 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:07.716 framework of how people choose topics, and the main empirical 0:20:07.756 --> 0:20:09.516 finding in that paper is that we we have no 0:20:09.596 --> 0:20:12.116 idea what other people want to be talking about. We're 0:20:12.196 --> 0:20:15.556 really bad at reading them and what they're saying. Machines 0:20:15.556 --> 0:20:18.436 are better at it, and we probably think it's basically unknowable. 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:20.356 That's right. I don't know what's inside there. I don't 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:22.156 care to know. I don't even if I try it, 0:20:22.196 --> 0:20:24.436 I probably wouldn't know. M all default to what I 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:26.796 want to talk about. But if you use people's words 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:29.156 and feed it to a machine, the machine knows way better, 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:31.236 so it is knowable. It's funny you when you watch 0:20:31.276 --> 0:20:35.556 dinner party conversation. Yeah, average dinner party conversation, the way 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:39.996 it ends up defaulting to less than optimal topics. Yes, 0:20:40.476 --> 0:20:43.756 if you empower people to switch topics more frequently, the 0:20:43.796 --> 0:20:46.516 conversation is much more interesting. It's just you need to 0:20:46.516 --> 0:20:48.956 feel empowered, like it's okay to switch, and we're all 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:51.796 on the same page about that, right, Because there are 0:20:51.836 --> 0:20:54.556 very obvious cues when a topic stagnates. There's much more 0:20:54.636 --> 0:20:57.676 mutual silence, there's uncomfortable laughter. Is we capture this in 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:00.756 the data, That bad dinner party moment has become a 0:21:00.756 --> 0:21:04.436 subject of scientific inquiry, just like humble bragging. What we 0:21:04.476 --> 0:21:06.756 have found in our data is that people who are 0:21:06.796 --> 0:21:09.996 more aware of what the topic is any given moment, 0:21:10.116 --> 0:21:12.916 and some people come into every conversation sort of with 0:21:12.996 --> 0:21:16.076 ideas already about what they might talk about with any 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:19.676 given person, and those people tend to be more interesting 0:21:19.676 --> 0:21:24.396 and engaging conversationalist. So topic selection is your first subject, 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:26.996 that's right, So it's the t of talk t a 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:32.396 L Kase Allison was explaining to me, which you had planned. 0:21:32.436 --> 0:21:35.676 I found myself thinking, like some old British aristocrat, you 0:21:35.716 --> 0:21:37.316 mean to tell me that we're now not only going 0:21:37.356 --> 0:21:43.236 to coach people, but coach them how to talk. So 0:21:44.196 --> 0:21:48.276 I initially signed up for the class because at times 0:21:48.356 --> 0:21:53.956 I can be a very anxious conversationalist. I am great 0:21:53.996 --> 0:21:57.356 with my friends, but I get really nervous about meeting 0:21:57.396 --> 0:21:59.796 new people, and that kind of leads to a lot 0:21:59.796 --> 0:22:03.596 of nervous ticks when I talk to new folks. Meet 0:22:03.636 --> 0:22:06.916 Bridget Taylor, a student at the Harvard Business School, enrolled 0:22:06.916 --> 0:22:10.036 in the class how to Talk Good, heer like I 0:22:10.076 --> 0:22:13.236 tend to talk way too much. I don't ask enough questions, 0:22:14.116 --> 0:22:17.116 and that just and also knowing that about myself makes 0:22:17.156 --> 0:22:20.116 me even more anxious when I enter new conversations. Let 0:22:20.156 --> 0:22:22.836 me let me stop you. You don't sound like an 0:22:22.876 --> 0:22:27.636 anxious conversationalist. Yeah, sometimes I think maybe it's in my 0:22:27.716 --> 0:22:31.436 head a little bit, But I mean I've definitely gotten 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:34.556 a lot better at HBS, just by brute force. It's 0:22:34.596 --> 0:22:37.916 such a social school, and you have to meet new 0:22:37.956 --> 0:22:40.116 people all the time, and you're here to get a job, 0:22:40.156 --> 0:22:42.276 so you have to network all the time. But it 0:22:42.356 --> 0:22:45.956 was a really big issue for me before school. Um 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:49.316 and I used to have to take beta blockers sometimes 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:51.996 before big meetings or even just a meeting with my 0:22:52.036 --> 0:22:55.836 boss because I would get so nervous. But here, just 0:22:56.196 --> 0:22:58.876 you know, if I would be popping like ten beta 0:22:58.916 --> 0:23:04.596 blockers a day, if I, you know, need needed that outlet. 0:23:04.636 --> 0:23:07.596 So I've just become I've just become more accustom accustomed 0:23:07.636 --> 0:23:10.236 to it. But it's still in my head that I'm nervous. 0:23:10.916 --> 0:23:12.836 Do you think if I came in and a sort 0:23:12.876 --> 0:23:18.636 of objectively evaluated your conversational abilities and compare them to 0:23:18.716 --> 0:23:21.476 other people around you, that I would notice you were deficient? 0:23:23.876 --> 0:23:28.476 Probably not, your conversational abilities might be something you can 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:32.356 improve upon, I'd be I'm highly dubious of the idea 0:23:32.436 --> 0:23:35.676 that Harvard Business School students aren't already at like the 0:23:35.716 --> 0:23:39.396 top five percent of social skills and conversational skills. They 0:23:39.436 --> 0:23:43.036 wouldn't be at the Harvard Business School if they weren't, yeh. 0:23:45.036 --> 0:23:47.156 I talked to a bunch of students and they all 0:23:47.196 --> 0:23:48.996 said they were taking the course because they felt in 0:23:49.076 --> 0:23:52.356 some way inadequate. When it came to conversation. I mean, 0:23:52.396 --> 0:23:55.076 one student in the class is a native Chinese speaker 0:23:55.076 --> 0:23:57.676 who was troubled that she was funnier in Chinese than 0:23:57.676 --> 0:24:00.876 she was in English. She was striving to become funnier 0:24:00.956 --> 0:24:03.516 in a second language. And if that didn't work out, 0:24:03.956 --> 0:24:06.516 there were other tricks on offer in the class we're 0:24:06.596 --> 0:24:10.996 learning about be interested rather than interesting. You can be 0:24:11.076 --> 0:24:15.156 a good listener and ask questions and have a genuine 0:24:15.156 --> 0:24:18.116 curiosity about who you're talking to, and that still makes 0:24:18.116 --> 0:24:21.236 you a really excellent conversationalist. You don't have to have 0:24:21.276 --> 0:24:24.276 the spotlight and be the most interesting person in the room, 0:24:24.316 --> 0:24:28.476 which has kind of been mind blowing for me personally. Now, 0:24:28.556 --> 0:24:31.636 is this a scandal? It's students at the Harvard Business 0:24:31.636 --> 0:24:33.836 School or the first to learn these new data driven 0:24:33.876 --> 0:24:38.556 tricks of conversation. Of course not. That's what Harvard Business 0:24:38.556 --> 0:24:42.676 School does amplify the advantages of people who are already winning. 0:24:43.596 --> 0:24:46.036 I asked Alison Brooks if the course could eventually do 0:24:46.156 --> 0:24:49.316 more than that, if the market didn't matter at all, 0:24:49.716 --> 0:24:53.316 what would be the fantasy about where you would take it? Oh, 0:24:53.396 --> 0:24:57.396 so many directions, I think A few answers. One younger 0:24:57.956 --> 0:25:03.356 so to kids and development right, younger children, particularly underserved populations, 0:25:04.076 --> 0:25:08.676 racially diverse, socioeconomic, gender diverse. These are the skills that 0:25:08.716 --> 0:25:11.916 are would potentially propel people to success in their lives. 0:25:11.916 --> 0:25:14.716 Really right, because the Harvard Business School student does not 0:25:14.836 --> 0:25:17.036 need to figure out how to make his status greater. 0:25:18.756 --> 0:25:22.156 Exactly right. They want to, but they don't need to. 0:25:21.676 --> 0:25:47.876 That's right. Just now, we're living in a moment that 0:25:48.036 --> 0:25:51.996 highlights the power of advantages. If you're young and strong, 0:25:52.316 --> 0:25:54.676 you're more likely to live than if you're old and weak. 0:25:55.796 --> 0:25:59.196