1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin chariots of fire. So where does the power come 2 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: from to see the race to its hand from? If 3 00:00:32,476 --> 00:00:35,636 Speaker 1: you're into watching white guys run, the movie never gets old. 4 00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 1: Even if you're not into that. It has one of 5 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: the best coaching scenes ever filmed. Harold Abraham's a British 6 00:00:42,556 --> 00:00:45,196 Speaker 1: sprinter is about to run thee hundred meter final in 7 00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty four Olympics. His coach gazes out of 8 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,436 Speaker 1: his hotel room window at the stadium next door. The 9 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: pistol sounds. The coach watches the sky over the stadium. 10 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:02,676 Speaker 1: Then he spies the British flag rising. That's how the 11 00:01:02,716 --> 00:01:12,236 Speaker 1: coach learns that his runner has won the gold. There's 12 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:15,236 Speaker 1: a reason the coach isn't inside the stadium watching the race. 13 00:01:15,916 --> 00:01:20,836 Speaker 1: He's been banned because he's a coach. In nineteen twenty four, 14 00:01:21,156 --> 00:01:24,996 Speaker 1: professional coaches are taboo. They're considered a form of cheating 15 00:01:25,636 --> 00:01:28,396 Speaker 1: the steroids of the age. It's aught to do with 16 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: this idea of this emerging gentleman amateur. So you were 17 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:35,236 Speaker 1: considered a gentleman if you were like upper class born 18 00:01:35,276 --> 00:01:38,756 Speaker 1: into money. Tigan Carpenter George is the co author of 19 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 1: a book on the history of coaching. It's one of 20 00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:43,636 Speaker 1: those subjects you don't really imagine there being a history 21 00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:47,156 Speaker 1: of what would have been the sports being played in 22 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: the early nineteenth century. So, I mean, the upper classes 23 00:01:49,636 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 1: would have been the typical cricket, fencing, rowing was quite 24 00:01:54,956 --> 00:01:58,956 Speaker 1: a good one, Tennis, probably not tennis as we recognize 25 00:01:58,956 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 1: it now. So there's a sport called pedestrianism which emerged 26 00:02:03,596 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 1: sort of the early eighteen hundreds, basically walking races. They 27 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:10,436 Speaker 1: were very lower class sports because there was lots of 28 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: wagering and lots of gambling going on in there, and 29 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 1: the upper classes weren't interested in that. Let me can 30 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:17,156 Speaker 1: let me stop you for a secon. Yeah, so you're 31 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: saying the lower class sport was pedestrianism. Yeah. So, And actually, 32 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,396 Speaker 1: if you go back to the eighteen hundreds, they had 33 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: stables of pedestrians, which was basically a group of men 34 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 1: that would travel around the pubs of Britain and they 35 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:37,956 Speaker 1: would race against each other. Now some of the things 36 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 1: were ridiculous, so it would be like five day races. 37 00:02:41,516 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 1: It would be who can walk a thousand miles in 38 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:47,036 Speaker 1: the fastest time, and they would get people to wager 39 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:50,036 Speaker 1: and bet on this there's something really funny about the 40 00:02:50,116 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 1: idea of a walking race being pub based. Oh yeah, 41 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 1: so do they have to walk in a straight line? 42 00:02:57,316 --> 00:02:59,396 Speaker 1: Oh no, No, they had like I mean, there was 43 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: arenas made for this. You know, this was big money. 44 00:03:07,356 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: She doesn't even notice my attempting a joke to an 45 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 1: estorian of coaching pedestrians or no, laughing matter. Because they 46 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:17,436 Speaker 1: were the first athletes to employ coaches. So they had 47 00:03:17,476 --> 00:03:21,636 Speaker 1: specific diets, they had specific routines they were experimenting. They 48 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 1: were getting their athletes to take god knows what because 49 00:03:25,156 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: they thought that these concoctions would make them faster, and 50 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:29,796 Speaker 1: it would be people would come to esteem to watch 51 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 1: people walk around the track. Yeah, I mean, there was 52 00:03:32,436 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: all different stuff. So when I say there was walking races, 53 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: but there was ridiculous things like backwards races, like jumping races. 54 00:03:42,636 --> 00:03:45,636 Speaker 1: So coaching begins as an effort to get working class 55 00:03:45,676 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: people to backpedal faster, but in the middle and upper classes, 56 00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:52,836 Speaker 1: coaching just wasn't done. There was a belief, kind of 57 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds that the middle and upper 58 00:03:56,116 --> 00:04:00,396 Speaker 1: class body was superior to the lower class body. Therefore, 59 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:03,756 Speaker 1: if it was superior, it didn't require any sort of 60 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:07,436 Speaker 1: coaching or training because it was superior, so they could 61 00:04:07,436 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 1: achieve what they wanted to achieve. But without this sort 62 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:14,756 Speaker 1: of interference. I think it was seen as interference from 63 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 1: coaching because that was what the lower classes did. By 64 00:04:18,356 --> 00:04:21,436 Speaker 1: the time the British elite finally started to embrace coaching, 65 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: it was less a change of sentiment than an act 66 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: of desperation. We did alright at the nineteen o eight 67 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:31,556 Speaker 1: Olympics because we created the program. So when you've got 68 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: things like tug of war a model boat racing, you 69 00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: know we did all right because we created that program. 70 00:04:39,756 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 1: But once we started to compete against other nations, so 71 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:47,556 Speaker 1: particularly sort of nineteen fifty two, after Helsinki nineteen forty eight, 72 00:04:47,596 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 1: the other London Olympics, there's a real cool for something 73 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:55,636 Speaker 1: used to change. The British were basically losing it everything 74 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 1: by the nineteen fifties. They hired coaches to fix the problem. 75 00:04:59,956 --> 00:05:02,796 Speaker 1: One coach was appointed to improve the training of athletes 76 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 1: in the entire country. Part of his contract was that 77 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 1: for ten pound a week, so probably about seven dollars 78 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 1: a week, he could be rented out to Cambridge University. However, 79 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:17,676 Speaker 1: if he was rented out to Cambridge University. He was 80 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,676 Speaker 1: told that he had to use the service entrance to 81 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: enter the university because he was not considered a member 82 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 1: of staff, and that he could only speak to the 83 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:29,916 Speaker 1: athletes if they spoke to him first. This was the 84 00:05:29,916 --> 00:05:32,836 Speaker 1: British idea about coaches, that there were a form of 85 00:05:32,916 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 1: cheating or a sign of natural inferiority. The notion was 86 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 1: so highly transmissible that it in effected Harold Abrahams himself, 87 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: the same runner who in Chariots of Fire had hired 88 00:05:45,516 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 1: a coach to help him win the gold medal. After 89 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,916 Speaker 1: Abraham's running career ended, he was put in charge of 90 00:05:52,036 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 1: all of British amateur sports. So he was happy to 91 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:58,076 Speaker 1: employ a coach and use a coach all the time. 92 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 1: It got him further in sport. But when he was 93 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:03,076 Speaker 1: on the other side of it, he then kind of 94 00:06:03,076 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: reverted to his amateur principles in the sense of we 95 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: don't like coaches, We control coach, which they know the 96 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 1: place the administrators are in charge, the coaches are their servants. 97 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: That's what they used to refer to them as. Now 98 00:06:18,276 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: I can see why some aristocrat might find coaching distasteful. 99 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 1: People born on top always want for everyone else to 100 00:06:25,716 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 1: just stay in their places. One way to do it 101 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:30,156 Speaker 1: is to make fun of people who try too hard 102 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:33,636 Speaker 1: and ban any edge that might help them to compete. 103 00:06:34,796 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 1: But the old aristocracy is dead. Now everybody thinks it's 104 00:06:38,996 --> 00:06:43,796 Speaker 1: good to try. Everybody competes, and the people who take 105 00:06:43,836 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 1: their coaching most seriously the aristocrats. I'm Michael Lewis, and 106 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:57,396 Speaker 1: this is Against the Rules, a show about various authority 107 00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:01,596 Speaker 1: figures in American life. This season's about the rise of coaches. 108 00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: This episode is about what happens when the edge that 109 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 1: coaching gives you starts to feel a bit more like cheating. 110 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:32,316 Speaker 1: Earlier this season, we heard about the way science had 111 00:07:32,316 --> 00:07:36,516 Speaker 1: transformed the coaching of pro baseball players, and not just them, 112 00:07:36,516 --> 00:07:40,276 Speaker 1: but athletes of all kinds. Baseball was just the cleanest 113 00:07:40,316 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 1: case study of how good players could be transformed into 114 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: great ones. It's all described in a book called The 115 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:50,156 Speaker 1: MVP Machine, which talks about the teams that led the way. 116 00:07:50,436 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 1: The Astros were really the first team that fully embraced it, 117 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:58,956 Speaker 1: that invested more heavily in the technology. And we're really 118 00:07:58,956 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: pretty ruthless when it came to cleaning house and saying 119 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: we're going to bring in people who are receptive to 120 00:08:05,356 --> 00:08:08,916 Speaker 1: these new ideas, and we're not going to give undue 121 00:08:08,916 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 1: doubt friends to tradition and experience. This is Ben Lindbergh. 122 00:08:13,356 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 1: He's the co author of the MVP machine, at the 123 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:19,956 Speaker 1: center of which sits the Houston Astros. The Astros have 124 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:23,956 Speaker 1: been really cutthroat in all kinds of ways. They've looked 125 00:08:23,956 --> 00:08:32,316 Speaker 1: for advantages that other teams were wary of. Back in 126 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, the Astros hired a new general manager named 127 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 1: Jeff Lunow. He was one of the new wave of 128 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 1: moneyball guys changing baseball, and maybe even more fanatical about 129 00:08:43,876 --> 00:08:47,116 Speaker 1: data than the original moneyball guys. He had been a 130 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: data geek and consultant in Mackenzie but went on to 131 00:08:50,356 --> 00:08:53,956 Speaker 1: help run the Saint Louis Cardinals, and when lu Now 132 00:08:54,036 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 1: came to the Astros, he brought science and technology with him. 133 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 1: The astros new coaches could do things like turn a tiny, 134 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 1: light hitting second baseman named Jose Altuve into a home 135 00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 1: run hitting league MVP. They turned several average pitchers into stars. 136 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 1: In May twenty seventeen, the Astro's bench coach Alex Cora 137 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 1: was working with the Astro's most famous player, Carlos Beltran. 138 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 1: Beltran was in decline. He was forty years old and 139 00:09:28,876 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 1: had been in the big leagues for twenty years now. 140 00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 1: He was struggling to hit. Desperate for help, any kind 141 00:09:35,876 --> 00:09:42,876 Speaker 1: of edge, The Astros coach suggests, how about we use 142 00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 1: this technology we already have, but to steal the opposing 143 00:09:46,756 --> 00:09:51,676 Speaker 1: catcher's signs, so you know what's coming. Fastball, curveball, slider. 144 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:55,956 Speaker 1: One thing leads to another, and soon the Astros coaching 145 00:09:55,996 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: staff has installed a TV monitor beside the dugout. It 146 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:03,116 Speaker 1: displays nothing but the feed from the center field camera. 147 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:08,436 Speaker 1: The Astros management has written a software program to decode 148 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: the opposing catchers signs, which they give to the coach. 149 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: The coach helps the players set up a signaling program 150 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,476 Speaker 1: that's an old technology. The Astros in the dugout bang 151 00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: on a trash can. No bangs means fastball, one bang 152 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:30,116 Speaker 1: means curveball, two bangs means slider, and so on. Unlike 153 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:33,756 Speaker 1: the other hitters in professional baseball, the Astros hitters now 154 00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: know what's coming. That year they won the World Series, 155 00:10:37,316 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: people were calling them one of the greatest teams in 156 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: history and It's a difficult thing to separate because the 157 00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:47,916 Speaker 1: Astros are a very talented team who succeeded in legitimate ways, 158 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:51,076 Speaker 1: but we're also cheating. It's funny because if you have 159 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 1: an organization that is succeeding because of its informational advantages, 160 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 1: because if it's always looking for the informational edge, it 161 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:02,716 Speaker 1: is just a hop, skip and a jump to let's 162 00:11:02,756 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 1: get their signs. Yes, you know, let's use technology to 163 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: actually infiltrate the other organization. Yes. And the camera that 164 00:11:12,156 --> 00:11:15,316 Speaker 1: they were using to relay the signs in real time, 165 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:18,196 Speaker 1: a camera that was placed in the outfield was actually 166 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 1: a camera that was installed legally for player development purposes. 167 00:11:22,996 --> 00:11:25,756 Speaker 1: We might never have known how the Astros were using 168 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:28,916 Speaker 1: their center field camera, but in the fall of two 169 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 1: thousand and nineteen, a former Astros pitcher told a reporter 170 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: what had been going on. The commissioner of Major League 171 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:41,316 Speaker 1: Baseball opened an investigation and published its findings. Then all 172 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:44,236 Speaker 1: hell broke loose. In the words of Major League Baseball 173 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:48,156 Speaker 1: Commissioner Rob Manfred, the Houston Astros are currently undergoing a 174 00:11:48,276 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 1: quote really really thorough investigation into the reports that the 175 00:11:52,756 --> 00:11:56,516 Speaker 1: team used cameras and other technology to steal pitching signs 176 00:11:56,796 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 1: from the opposing teams. Now the story, the ESPN was 177 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: on it, Sports Illustrated was on it, The world was 178 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: on it. The Houston Astros went from being the most 179 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:10,956 Speaker 1: envied team in baseball to social pariahs, booed wherever they went. 180 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:14,156 Speaker 1: But this was about much more than a team's reputation. 181 00:12:15,476 --> 00:12:19,076 Speaker 1: Could you just describe what happened on August the fourth, 182 00:12:19,076 --> 00:12:22,876 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Yeah, In August four, twenty seventeen, Mike was 183 00:12:22,916 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: brought in in the fourth inning. The first pitcher had struggled. 184 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:30,596 Speaker 1: This is a guy named Ben Macellis. He's the lawyer 185 00:12:30,636 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: for former Major League pitcher Mike Bolsinger who's suing the 186 00:12:34,476 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 1: Houston Astros. So Mike at that point was a middle reliever. 187 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:45,476 Speaker 1: He threw twenty nine pitches. Of the twenty nine pitches, 188 00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: there were bangs, which indicated that it was going to 189 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,276 Speaker 1: be a breaking ball. The bang was sent from the 190 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: dugout of the Astros by banging on a trash can 191 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:56,436 Speaker 1: to the batter to signify what pitch was going to 192 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: be thrown. And so there were forty percent of his 193 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 1: pitches there were bangs on if you're wondering whether a 194 00:13:02,796 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: big league pitcher has ever before hired a lawyer to 195 00:13:05,596 --> 00:13:09,796 Speaker 1: sue an opposing team for the behavior of their coaches. Well, no, 196 00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:13,156 Speaker 1: this is a first, But then the coaches have never 197 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:15,556 Speaker 1: been able to generate this kind of edge. It was 198 00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:18,716 Speaker 1: a disastrous outing, and after a performance that was so 199 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:22,556 Speaker 1: embarrassing like that, the team lost confidence him. Frankly, all 200 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 1: scouts in the major's lost confidence in him. He was 201 00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 1: demoted to the minor leagues. Played well right after that 202 00:13:29,316 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 1: in the miners, but then couldn't find work in the 203 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:35,076 Speaker 1: majors because he was viewed as having lost his last 204 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: shot that game. And for all Mike knew until recently, 205 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: he just thought he couldn't perform that day. So he 206 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:43,516 Speaker 1: did in the moment, did he have any sense that 207 00:13:43,596 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 1: anything peculiar was going on. He believed that they were 208 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:51,756 Speaker 1: the greatest team he's ever played against. He was just, 209 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: you know, shocked that day. He would say that it 210 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 1: seemed that they knew the pitches that he was throwing, 211 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: but he attributed it to their great skill and their 212 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: great determination and being a great team, and that he 213 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 1: just didn't have what it takes anymore. Mike Bolsinger was, 214 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: in baseball terms, a nobody. The astros were the elites. 215 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:18,756 Speaker 1: When you're a nobody and you go up against a 216 00:14:18,756 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: member of the elite and you lose, well, it just 217 00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 1: confirms you're not good enough. You assume you can't compete. 218 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: You never even know that the coach basically rigged the 219 00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:34,756 Speaker 1: game with some software, a camera and a trash candleid. 220 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: The question then is just how many games in life 221 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:55,596 Speaker 1: can be rigged? So thus the study of how people 222 00:14:55,796 --> 00:14:58,396 Speaker 1: talk is of course, you know, it's as old as 223 00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 1: people basically. Mike Norton, psychologist, professor at the Harvard Business School, 224 00:15:04,356 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: he's been studying the way people talk and thinking about 225 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 1: how they might do it better. A lot of the 226 00:15:09,756 --> 00:15:14,396 Speaker 1: research on conversation is kind of about like underlying grammar, 227 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 1: you know, so it's sort of what are the rules 228 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 1: of language on how it works and which words come 229 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:23,156 Speaker 1: where and why in German are they over here? Which 230 00:15:23,196 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 1: is totally fascinating. But you could read all of that 231 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 1: and still have absolutely no idea what you're supposed to 232 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:32,076 Speaker 1: say to someone when you're meeting them for the first time. 233 00:15:32,196 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: Like there's no guidance, there's no help for us in 234 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: any of the things that we're trying to get done, 235 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 1: which is crazy because we talk all day, every day. 236 00:15:42,036 --> 00:15:47,796 Speaker 1: It's the number one thing that we do. We talk, 237 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:51,196 Speaker 1: but we don't know how to do it effectively. But 238 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:55,236 Speaker 1: now there are new piles of data, truly massive numbers 239 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:58,836 Speaker 1: of sales calls, speed dates, Twitter fights, and so on, 240 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 1: all recorded. I talked about this a little in the 241 00:16:02,996 --> 00:16:06,836 Speaker 1: last episode about social scientists who have new computing tools 242 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:11,076 Speaker 1: that make it easy for them to see patterns analyze them. 243 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: When you study people's conversation, you discover a funny thing. 244 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 1: People who are just trying to be liked and respected 245 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:22,356 Speaker 1: have no clue how to do it. They make all 246 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: kinds of mistakes. Humble bragging, for instance. There's two kinds. Actually, 247 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 1: there's complaint brags and humble brags. Complaint brags are this 248 00:16:32,396 --> 00:16:35,956 Speaker 1: whenever a celebrity on Twitter or Instagram writes ug dot 249 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: dot dot whatever comes after that as a humble bragg 250 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:41,996 Speaker 1: to search for it. So they wrote they wrote something 251 00:16:42,036 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 1: like ug dot dot dot my hand is so sore 252 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: from signing so many autographs. It was just the best, 253 00:16:50,716 --> 00:16:54,596 Speaker 1: the best. So that's the complaint brag, right, Oh, all, 254 00:16:54,636 --> 00:16:56,396 Speaker 1: I want to do is tell you my hand hurts, 255 00:16:56,876 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 1: and then the other thing. And the humble brag is 256 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 1: the one which is almost more common with celebrities, which 257 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:05,476 Speaker 1: is the um so honored to be on stage with 258 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 1: Bono to receive this award. So that's a humble brag. 259 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 1: Mike Norton set out two years ago to study it scientifically. 260 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 1: He worked with two other psychologists, Oval Sayser and Francesca Gino. 261 00:17:20,676 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 1: They conducted weird experiments, like having a person in a 262 00:17:23,996 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 1: coffee shop try to get other people to sign a petition, 263 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 1: but in some cases sprinkling into her chitchat a humble brag. 264 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 1: Other times she just bragged. It turned out people were 265 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: more likely to sign the petition if she just bragged. 266 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 1: Mike and his colleagues call their paper humble bragging a 267 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 1: distinct and ineffective self presentation strategy. Their case was airtight. 268 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:52,836 Speaker 1: If you want people to like or respect, you, don't 269 00:17:52,916 --> 00:17:58,516 Speaker 1: humble brag. We don't love people who bragg, but we 270 00:17:58,636 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 1: like them more because at least they're being honest, right, 271 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: at least they're just saying I'm awesome. It's these humble 272 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 1: braggers that are these kind of phony and sincere people 273 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:11,956 Speaker 1: that really bother us. It's a given how much conversation 274 00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: happens that people are pursuing this wily, inefficient strategy. It's 275 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 1: extraordinary how common bad strategies are. It really is, because 276 00:18:22,196 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: you'd think if we practice this from the time where two, 277 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 1: you know, all day every day, we would have figured 278 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: out what works and what doesn't. But part of the 279 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 1: reason we don't is because people tend to be pretty polite. 280 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 1: So if you humble brag, I'm very unlikely to call 281 00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:41,636 Speaker 1: you out on it. So you think it worked now. 282 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 1: Later on, I'm going to go make fun of you 283 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:45,316 Speaker 1: to other people, but you're not going to know that 284 00:18:45,356 --> 00:18:48,996 Speaker 1: I did that. And that's why we're bad at talking. 285 00:18:49,116 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 1: In spite of how important it is and how much 286 00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 1: we do it, we don't get enough direct feedback. A 287 00:18:55,716 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 1: handful of researchers now study how people talk and the 288 00:18:58,956 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 1: strategies they use to be liked and respected. They've uncovered 289 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 1: good strategies and some bad ones, and it was probably 290 00:19:06,876 --> 00:19:10,116 Speaker 1: only a matter of time before somebody real all this 291 00:19:10,236 --> 00:19:14,636 Speaker 1: insight could be used to coach people how to talk. 292 00:19:19,956 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 1: Most of social life, we're better at perceiving strengths and 293 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 1: weaknesses and others than executing those same things ourselves. We 294 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 1: give different advice to other people than we would enact 295 00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:33,516 Speaker 1: ourselves in that same situation. That's why coaches and third 296 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:37,476 Speaker 1: party observers are so helpful. This is Alison Brooks, another 297 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:40,596 Speaker 1: psychologist at the Harvard Business School. You heard her at 298 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,876 Speaker 1: the end of the last episode. She just created a 299 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 1: new class to coach her students. It's called how to 300 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:49,156 Speaker 1: Talk Good. Her we're not good at taking our own 301 00:19:49,156 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 1: observations and applying them to ourselves observations and judgments. Alison 302 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 1: knew how she wanted to open her class with one 303 00:19:56,316 --> 00:20:00,796 Speaker 1: powerful tool she could hand students to improve their conversational ability, 304 00:20:01,316 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: topic selection. So we have this paper about that's the 305 00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 1: framework of how people choose topics, and the main empirical 306 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 1: finding in that paper is that we we have no 307 00:20:09,596 --> 00:20:12,116 Speaker 1: idea what other people want to be talking about. We're 308 00:20:12,196 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 1: really bad at reading them and what they're saying. Machines 309 00:20:15,556 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: are better at it, and we probably think it's basically unknowable. 310 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:20,356 Speaker 1: That's right. I don't know what's inside there. I don't 311 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 1: care to know. I don't even if I try it, 312 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:24,436 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't know. M all default to what I 313 00:20:24,476 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 1: want to talk about. But if you use people's words 314 00:20:26,796 --> 00:20:29,156 Speaker 1: and feed it to a machine, the machine knows way better, 315 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:31,236 Speaker 1: so it is knowable. It's funny you when you watch 316 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:35,556 Speaker 1: dinner party conversation. Yeah, average dinner party conversation, the way 317 00:20:35,556 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 1: it ends up defaulting to less than optimal topics. Yes, 318 00:20:40,476 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: if you empower people to switch topics more frequently, the 319 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:46,516 Speaker 1: conversation is much more interesting. It's just you need to 320 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:48,956 Speaker 1: feel empowered, like it's okay to switch, and we're all 321 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:51,796 Speaker 1: on the same page about that, right, Because there are 322 00:20:51,836 --> 00:20:54,556 Speaker 1: very obvious cues when a topic stagnates. There's much more 323 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:57,676 Speaker 1: mutual silence, there's uncomfortable laughter. Is we capture this in 324 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 1: the data, That bad dinner party moment has become a 325 00:21:00,756 --> 00:21:04,436 Speaker 1: subject of scientific inquiry, just like humble bragging. What we 326 00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 1: have found in our data is that people who are 327 00:21:06,796 --> 00:21:09,996 Speaker 1: more aware of what the topic is any given moment, 328 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 1: and some people come into every conversation sort of with 329 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 1: ideas already about what they might talk about with any 330 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 1: given person, and those people tend to be more interesting 331 00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:24,396 Speaker 1: and engaging conversationalist. So topic selection is your first subject, 332 00:21:24,636 --> 00:21:26,996 Speaker 1: that's right, So it's the t of talk t a 333 00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:32,396 Speaker 1: L Kase Allison was explaining to me, which you had planned. 334 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 1: I found myself thinking, like some old British aristocrat, you 335 00:21:35,716 --> 00:21:37,316 Speaker 1: mean to tell me that we're now not only going 336 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:43,236 Speaker 1: to coach people, but coach them how to talk. So 337 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 1: I initially signed up for the class because at times 338 00:21:48,356 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: I can be a very anxious conversationalist. I am great 339 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 1: with my friends, but I get really nervous about meeting 340 00:21:57,396 --> 00:21:59,796 Speaker 1: new people, and that kind of leads to a lot 341 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:03,596 Speaker 1: of nervous ticks when I talk to new folks. Meet 342 00:22:03,636 --> 00:22:06,916 Speaker 1: Bridget Taylor, a student at the Harvard Business School, enrolled 343 00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:10,036 Speaker 1: in the class how to Talk Good, heer like I 344 00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:13,236 Speaker 1: tend to talk way too much. I don't ask enough questions, 345 00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:17,116 Speaker 1: and that just and also knowing that about myself makes 346 00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 1: me even more anxious when I enter new conversations. Let 347 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:22,836 Speaker 1: me let me stop you. You don't sound like an 348 00:22:22,876 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 1: anxious conversationalist. Yeah, sometimes I think maybe it's in my 349 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:31,436 Speaker 1: head a little bit, But I mean I've definitely gotten 350 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:34,556 Speaker 1: a lot better at HBS, just by brute force. It's 351 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:37,916 Speaker 1: such a social school, and you have to meet new 352 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:40,116 Speaker 1: people all the time, and you're here to get a job, 353 00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 1: so you have to network all the time. But it 354 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 1: was a really big issue for me before school. Um 355 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: and I used to have to take beta blockers sometimes 356 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 1: before big meetings or even just a meeting with my 357 00:22:52,036 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 1: boss because I would get so nervous. But here, just 358 00:22:56,196 --> 00:22:58,876 Speaker 1: you know, if I would be popping like ten beta 359 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:04,596 Speaker 1: blockers a day, if I, you know, need needed that outlet. 360 00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 1: So I've just become I've just become more accustom accustomed 361 00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 1: to it. But it's still in my head that I'm nervous. 362 00:23:10,916 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 1: Do you think if I came in and a sort 363 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 1: of objectively evaluated your conversational abilities and compare them to 364 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:21,476 Speaker 1: other people around you, that I would notice you were deficient? 365 00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 1: Probably not, your conversational abilities might be something you can 366 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:32,356 Speaker 1: improve upon, I'd be I'm highly dubious of the idea 367 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 1: that Harvard Business School students aren't already at like the 368 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: top five percent of social skills and conversational skills. They 369 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: wouldn't be at the Harvard Business School if they weren't, yeh. 370 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: I talked to a bunch of students and they all 371 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 1: said they were taking the course because they felt in 372 00:23:49,076 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 1: some way inadequate. When it came to conversation. I mean, 373 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 1: one student in the class is a native Chinese speaker 374 00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:57,676 Speaker 1: who was troubled that she was funnier in Chinese than 375 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 1: she was in English. She was striving to become funnier 376 00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: in a second language. And if that didn't work out, 377 00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:06,516 Speaker 1: there were other tricks on offer in the class we're 378 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:10,996 Speaker 1: learning about be interested rather than interesting. You can be 379 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 1: a good listener and ask questions and have a genuine 380 00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 1: curiosity about who you're talking to, and that still makes 381 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:21,236 Speaker 1: you a really excellent conversationalist. You don't have to have 382 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:24,276 Speaker 1: the spotlight and be the most interesting person in the room, 383 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:28,476 Speaker 1: which has kind of been mind blowing for me personally. Now, 384 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:31,636 Speaker 1: is this a scandal? It's students at the Harvard Business 385 00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: School or the first to learn these new data driven 386 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 1: tricks of conversation. Of course not. That's what Harvard Business 387 00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:42,676 Speaker 1: School does amplify the advantages of people who are already winning. 388 00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:46,036 Speaker 1: I asked Alison Brooks if the course could eventually do 389 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 1: more than that, if the market didn't matter at all, 390 00:24:49,716 --> 00:24:53,316 Speaker 1: what would be the fantasy about where you would take it? Oh, 391 00:24:53,396 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: so many directions, I think A few answers. One younger 392 00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 1: so to kids and development right, younger children, particularly underserved populations, 393 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 1: racially diverse, socioeconomic, gender diverse. These are the skills that 394 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: are would potentially propel people to success in their lives. 395 00:25:11,916 --> 00:25:14,716 Speaker 1: Really right, because the Harvard Business School student does not 396 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 1: need to figure out how to make his status greater. 397 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,156 Speaker 1: Exactly right. They want to, but they don't need to. 398 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:47,876 Speaker 1: That's right. Just now, we're living in a moment that 399 00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:51,996 Speaker 1: highlights the power of advantages. If you're young and strong, 400 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:54,676 Speaker 1: you're more likely to live than if you're old and weak. 401 00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:59,196 Speaker 1: If your company's big and rich, it's more likely to survive. 402 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:02,876 Speaker 1: And if it's lean and small, if you have a great, 403 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: big home with lots of places to work and play, 404 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:08,196 Speaker 1: you're less likely to go insane. And if you're jammed 405 00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 1: into some tiny apartment. Whatever advantages you had before the pandemic, 406 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 1: well those advantages are now amplified. People who get a BA, 407 00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 1: on average, make more money, have more stable lives. Paul 408 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:26,196 Speaker 1: Tough is the author of a book called The Years 409 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: That Matter Most. It's about college and class mobility in America. 410 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:33,996 Speaker 1: But there's also increasing evidence that where you go to 411 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 1: school matters too, and it matters especially for low income students, 412 00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 1: first generation students, if you're the first in your family 413 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:43,076 Speaker 1: to go to college, where you go actually has a 414 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 1: really huge effect on your future earnings. But it also 415 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:52,756 Speaker 1: gives them often their first entree into rich American life 416 00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:55,956 Speaker 1: and to sort of the culture of upper middle class 417 00:26:55,996 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: and affluent American society. Gives them connections, gives them sort 418 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:03,396 Speaker 1: of the social capital to understand how the world works. 419 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 1: Elite colleges, of course know this. They say they want 420 00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:10,756 Speaker 1: more low income students, but Paul found that the most 421 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: selective colleges had more students from the richest one percent 422 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:17,956 Speaker 1: of Americans than from the entire bottom sixty percent. So 423 00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:21,636 Speaker 1: he went looking for an explanation and found it from 424 00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: an SAT coach. It's man named Ned Johnson who runs 425 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:28,956 Speaker 1: his own company, a very successful company in the Washington, 426 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,636 Speaker 1: DC area called Prep Matters. And what Ned says, and 427 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:33,436 Speaker 1: I think what a lot of them say, is that 428 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 1: the test measures your ability to take the test. They 429 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 1: no longer believe if they ever did that the SAT 430 00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 1: really measures your academic ability or anything deep about you. 431 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 1: It measures how well you've been trained to take that test, 432 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:50,476 Speaker 1: and how much does it cost to get that training well? 433 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:54,236 Speaker 1: It depends. There's a wide variation. Ned is pretty close 434 00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:56,676 Speaker 1: to the top of the financial scale. I think he 435 00:27:56,756 --> 00:27:59,676 Speaker 1: charges four hundred dollars an hour for his students, so 436 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:02,476 Speaker 1: it's like hiring a lawyer. Yeah, it's huge, it's huge. 437 00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: The sat N ACT are the biggest obstacles that poor 438 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:10,676 Speaker 1: kids have to overcome to get into the elite schools. 439 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:14,036 Speaker 1: Their grades are as good as the grades of rich kids, 440 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:17,636 Speaker 1: but their test scores are systematically worse than the scores 441 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:19,756 Speaker 1: of rich kids. I mean, you know, I've had people 442 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 1: go up hundreds of points in just a couple of weeks. 443 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 1: Sometimes that's Ben Paris, who's coached these tests for twenty 444 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:30,196 Speaker 1: six years, hundreds of points. I've never actually had anybody 445 00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:33,876 Speaker 1: investigated for this, but there are some students where actually 446 00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:35,436 Speaker 1: they did so much better on the second one where 447 00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:36,836 Speaker 1: I was afraid they were going to get called in 448 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:42,116 Speaker 1: because this school special fishy. Yeah, yes, I mean, you know, 449 00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 1: there there is a couple that I took that were 450 00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:47,716 Speaker 1: that were pro bono cases, and these are just great kids. 451 00:28:48,196 --> 00:28:50,396 Speaker 1: And one of them was coming in at like seven hundred, 452 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: and she was working a part time job, had family responsibilities, 453 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: but she just fundamentally didn't know how the test was 454 00:28:57,836 --> 00:29:00,316 Speaker 1: put together and what they expected. You know, she could 455 00:29:00,356 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 1: study all of math, but guess what, not all of 456 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 1: math is on the test. So by really focusing her 457 00:29:05,276 --> 00:29:07,436 Speaker 1: on what she needed to what was going to get 458 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:10,596 Speaker 1: her points, and understanding how the questions worked, she went 459 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:13,436 Speaker 1: up over a thousand and so she went from not 460 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:16,396 Speaker 1: getting into college or being stuck in remedial classes to 461 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:19,876 Speaker 1: getting in and then never having to take a remedial class. 462 00:29:20,196 --> 00:29:21,476 Speaker 1: And you know, if I had had more than a 463 00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:23,076 Speaker 1: month with her, who knows how well she could have done. 464 00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:29,716 Speaker 1: That's a thought that Ben Paris had whenever he coached 465 00:29:29,716 --> 00:29:33,876 Speaker 1: poor kids, but it didn't happen often. It was a 466 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:37,476 Speaker 1: rich kids market. To be a lucrative market, it kind 467 00:29:37,476 --> 00:29:41,116 Speaker 1: of had to be, because if everyone could afford SAT coaching, 468 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:45,956 Speaker 1: SAT coaching would cease to offer an edge. Everyone would 469 00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 1: just game the test in the same way. That's what 470 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: Paul Tough found too. While it wasn't totally true that 471 00:29:52,436 --> 00:29:55,596 Speaker 1: you can just buy a test score, it wasn't totally 472 00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 1: false either, but he found something else, a sort of 473 00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:03,276 Speaker 1: moral vacuum at the heart of American education. It gets 474 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 1: noticed mainly when someone from the outside walks in. There 475 00:30:08,756 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: was this one one young man named Ben Dormus and 476 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:15,276 Speaker 1: be he was this amazing guy, a senior in high 477 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:19,076 Speaker 1: school in Washington. This Ben was also from a less 478 00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:23,156 Speaker 1: affluent home. A series of lucky accidents had landed him 479 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,236 Speaker 1: in the office of Ned Johnson, crack test prep coach, 480 00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:29,676 Speaker 1: who agreed to give him SAT coaching for free. So 481 00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: he got all of these advantages, and he worked incredibly hard, 482 00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 1: and Ned helped him improve his SAT score on the 483 00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:39,316 Speaker 1: math side by one hundred and something points, and he 484 00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 1: got into Yale. But Yale things got complicated because this 485 00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:46,916 Speaker 1: poor kid couldn't shake the sense that getting into Yale 486 00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:51,796 Speaker 1: involved some underhanded trick. Ben really felt this sense that 487 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:55,636 Speaker 1: he had been given something that was unfair, and that 488 00:30:55,716 --> 00:30:58,396 Speaker 1: while he appreciated it, he could not stop thinking about 489 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:00,596 Speaker 1: the people who had been left behind, because he knew 490 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: that he was actually no different than the person that 491 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:05,356 Speaker 1: he was a few months earlier before he'd gotten all 492 00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:07,676 Speaker 1: this coaching, and that that guy would never have gotten 493 00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:09,956 Speaker 1: to Yale. But this guy who got all this coaching 494 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 1: did get into Yale. He just keeps thinking about, like, 495 00:31:13,716 --> 00:31:16,636 Speaker 1: what how does that system work? That system that he 496 00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: suddenly kind of magically got entree into and how can 497 00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 1: it be more fair? How can it be made to 498 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:26,076 Speaker 1: be more fair? I'm interested in this story because it 499 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 1: gets at the great unspoken question. Most of the kids 500 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,756 Speaker 1: who get test coaching never asked the question. They don't 501 00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 1: even think of what they have as an edge, since 502 00:31:33,636 --> 00:31:36,076 Speaker 1: all the other kids they know also have it. But 503 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 1: coaching is the great force keeping them in the station 504 00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:42,316 Speaker 1: to which they were born and keeping less fortunate kids 505 00:31:42,356 --> 00:31:48,236 Speaker 1: out of it. Arrest warrants issued for forty six people 506 00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:52,996 Speaker 1: around the country, including coaches and wealthy parents like Felicity Huffman, 507 00:31:53,556 --> 00:31:56,236 Speaker 1: we now know that some rich American parents were taking 508 00:31:56,276 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 1: the college testing game to its logical conclusion. The star 509 00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:02,756 Speaker 1: of Desperate Housewives so desperate to land her daughter in 510 00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:06,876 Speaker 1: a top school, prosecutors say she paid fifteen thousand dollars 511 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 1: to Singer to bribe a proctor who would secretly correct 512 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: her answers. If a test isn't measuring much except your 513 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:20,116 Speaker 1: ability to take it, and you can pay some coach 514 00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,956 Speaker 1: to teach you to do that, why not just avoid 515 00:32:22,996 --> 00:32:25,116 Speaker 1: all the bother and pay the coach to take the 516 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 1: test for you. That kid who got the SAT coaching 517 00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 1: and went to Yale was right to feel uneasy. He'd 518 00:32:32,156 --> 00:32:34,076 Speaker 1: used a coach to help him climb to the top 519 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:38,076 Speaker 1: of America's Steekas Slope. The only difference between him and 520 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:40,996 Speaker 1: all the other people on top was that he could 521 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:52,076 Speaker 1: feel that it was slippery. I'm Michael Lewis. Thanks for 522 00:32:52,156 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 1: listening to Against the Rules. Against the Rules is brought 523 00:32:55,196 --> 00:32:58,956 Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries. The show's produced by Audrey 524 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 1: Dilling and Catherine Girodo, with research assistance from Lydia Jane 525 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 1: Cott and Zooe Wynn. Our editor is Julia Barton. Mia 526 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:11,476 Speaker 1: Lobell is our executive producer. Our theme was composed by 527 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:15,716 Speaker 1: Nick Brittell, with additional scoring by Stellwagen Symphonette. We got 528 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:18,636 Speaker 1: fact checked by Beth Johnson. Our show was recorded by 529 00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:22,116 Speaker 1: tofur Ruth and Trey Schultz at Northgate Studios in Berkeley, 530 00:33:22,956 --> 00:33:28,636 Speaker 1: as always thanks to Pushkin's founders, Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm Gladwell. 531 00:33:46,876 --> 00:33:50,916 Speaker 1: So my name is Tan Carpin to George, my book 532 00:33:51,156 --> 00:33:57,436 Speaker 1: is Overcoming Amateurism. Amateurism coaching traditions in British spoort. Do 533 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 1: that one more time so we have it clean I've 534 00:34:00,636 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 1: really just forgotten the name of my book, okay, A 535 00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:06,716 Speaker 1: History of Coaching in a History of Sports Coaching in Britain, 536 00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 1: Overcoming Amateurism. Yes, that's very British of you, you that 537 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 1: you see that you're you spent so little time talking 538 00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 1: about yourself. You can't even remember the name of your book. 539 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 1: I know, I know the first bit. I know the 540 00:34:19,036 --> 00:34:21,116 Speaker 1: first bit because that was the name of my PhD. 541 00:34:21,276 --> 00:34:23,956 Speaker 1: But the end bit it was, yeah, M so overcoming 542 00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:28,756 Speaker 1: your amateurism. History of Now I forgot naked. Why I 543 00:34:28,756 --> 00:34:30,836 Speaker 1: feel like I just walked into faulty towers? All right? 544 00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:34,196 Speaker 1: Can you let's just just introduce yourself.