WEBVTT - Wesley Schultz

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Webset's podcast. My

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<v Speaker 1>guest today is Wesley Schultz of Illumineers. Wesley the band

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<v Speaker 1>has a new album.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me about it, Thanks, Bob. Yeah, we have new album.

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<v Speaker 2>It's called Automatic. We finished it last June, so we've

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<v Speaker 2>been waiting to put it out. It feels like forever

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<v Speaker 2>and it's what do you want to know?

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<v Speaker 1>There's a Okay, well let's start. Why the delay in

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<v Speaker 1>releasing the album?

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<v Speaker 2>Honestly, I'm not quite sure. I think there's a there's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of a thing people say about setting up a

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<v Speaker 2>record that I don't really understand that well, that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of younger artists don't seem to need to do

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<v Speaker 2>it all, so I don't like and it's working for them,

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<v Speaker 2>But it was kind of a good thing for us.

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<v Speaker 2>As much as we start to blend time on the

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<v Speaker 2>road and then recording, it seems like it there's never

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<v Speaker 2>like a pause to take a breath, So it was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of, in a weird way, suite to take a

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<v Speaker 2>minute and regroup and just get ready for about two

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<v Speaker 2>years on the road. But I don't I wish I

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<v Speaker 2>had a better answer. I've been told that the things

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<v Speaker 2>take time to organize and behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the Luveneers were signed to an independent label. Was

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<v Speaker 1>that a conscious choice.

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<v Speaker 2>And no, the choice was The choice was basically like

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<v Speaker 2>when we were starting out. It was twenty twelve when

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<v Speaker 2>we finally got any attention. We've been trying for myself

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<v Speaker 2>probably ten years at that point, and with Jare about

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<v Speaker 2>seven or eight. And so we had put out or

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<v Speaker 2>we had gotten the song ho Hey put on this

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<v Speaker 2>TV show is called Heart of Dixie, and they played

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<v Speaker 2>the whole song. They had muted the dialogue like on

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<v Speaker 2>the show, and so they played the entire song, and

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<v Speaker 2>our song was nowhere to be had. You couldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>it anywhere. It was like the worst If you were

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<v Speaker 2>trying to blow up, this would be like the worst plan.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the only place you could find our song

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<v Speaker 2>was on a site called day Trotter. It's this place

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<v Speaker 2>outside Chicago where you drive out as a band and

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<v Speaker 2>you'd record versions of your songs live. So that's the

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<v Speaker 2>only place people found it. So we shot up I

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<v Speaker 2>think the like second all time and like day Trotter

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<v Speaker 2>at the time. But at that point Majors and Indy

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<v Speaker 2>started approaching us and offering us potential deals, and none

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<v Speaker 2>of the deals were very good, especially from the major side,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a lot of like multi year deals,

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<v Speaker 2>three to five record deals, and we just wanted a

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<v Speaker 2>one record deal. We wanted to know whoever worked with

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<v Speaker 2>us would want to do well like we wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>do well, and we actually gave the right of first

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<v Speaker 2>refusal at the time to Daniel Glass. We really wanted

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel Glass to do this record. He had worked with

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<v Speaker 2>Phoenix and Mumford and Sons and among other bands, and

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<v Speaker 2>we thought, well, if he could do it with pretty

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<v Speaker 2>different bands that aren't sort of on the traditional path

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<v Speaker 2>per se, maybe he could do it with us. And

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<v Speaker 2>he came to our show at the Mercury Lounge and

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<v Speaker 2>he passed on it. He was like, I'm good, no thanks,

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<v Speaker 2>but I wish you guys all the luck in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we ended up going with Dualtone, who at

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<v Speaker 2>the time I think they had Brett Dennen as one

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<v Speaker 2>of their artists, but he was on the way out.

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<v Speaker 2>He was heading somewhere else. So it's kind of like, man,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it was the only fair deal that was

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<v Speaker 2>being offered, so we took the fair deal and we

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<v Speaker 2>could own our own music and you know, keep it

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<v Speaker 2>all like in house and do one record deal. So

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<v Speaker 2>we ended up doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, when you said it was a fair deal, you

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<v Speaker 1>got to own the record, And was it a typical

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<v Speaker 1>indie deal fifty to fifty split of net.

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<v Speaker 2>It was something like that. It's since you know it

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<v Speaker 2>changes over time slowly. I think it was something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>It was almost like going in on a business venture

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<v Speaker 2>with someone where they they're not giving you any money

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<v Speaker 2>up front. Really, we had already made the record, we

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<v Speaker 2>had recorded it for like our management at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>I think front of us money to do that. It

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<v Speaker 2>was like ten grand to record the album, and then

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<v Speaker 2>it was and then we ended up scrapping the whole

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<v Speaker 2>mix of the album because we didn't like what the

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<v Speaker 2>original producer had done with it. So then we took

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<v Speaker 2>it to Sound City and Kevin Agunis remixed the whole

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<v Speaker 2>thing from scratch, and I think we then double the

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<v Speaker 2>budget to twenty thousand, which looking back, that's a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good way to make a record compared to what records

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<v Speaker 2>cost today. And yeah, we remixed the whole record. I

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<v Speaker 2>had heard a story about Damien Rice early on, before

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<v Speaker 2>we had had any record deal, and how he had

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<v Speaker 2>like scrapped an entire record he had saved up to

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<v Speaker 2>make because he didn't like how it sounded, and that

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<v Speaker 2>stuck with me. So when it came time for us,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't. It sounded way polished and all these comp takes,

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't sound like us, It didn't sound like human.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, we remixed it and then went on from there.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, how did the song get in the Dixie Show

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<v Speaker 1>to begin with?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? No, Like somebody heard it and they called it

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<v Speaker 2>sync it. They synced it to the show. They offered us,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a few thousand dollars or something. I forget

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<v Speaker 2>what it was, but it was like more money than

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<v Speaker 2>we'd ever seen in our lives, and we're like, whoa,

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<v Speaker 2>that's amazing, let's do it. And our management facilitated, like

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<v Speaker 2>helped us figure it out with our lawyer and got

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<v Speaker 2>it on there. But it wasn't like a well planned thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, we would have had the song at

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<v Speaker 2>least somewhere to like download it, and it was nowhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you made a one album deal with Duel Tone.

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<v Speaker 1>You're still with Duel Tone. Yeah, so you must have

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<v Speaker 1>liked it after one album.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they've been great. I mean the year we worked

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<v Speaker 2>with them, the opening two years we worked with them,

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<v Speaker 2>it was they were a lot like us. They were

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<v Speaker 2>like the little engine that could. They won an award

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<v Speaker 2>for best Best Record Label with five or fewer employees.

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<v Speaker 2>They had I think four people, and they were they

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<v Speaker 2>got us like we had gotten on the Grammys and SNL.

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<v Speaker 2>We were just doing things that it doesn't normally happen

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<v Speaker 2>to a band that is not on a major. So

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<v Speaker 2>it was it's kind of like a fairy tale in

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<v Speaker 2>a way. And then we were basing a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>our decisions on we had heard from. We have a

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<v Speaker 2>really wise lawyer. His name is Richard Grabile, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>been doing it for a long time and he's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like always I always turned to him when I

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<v Speaker 2>need really deep advice, and he was just like saying

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<v Speaker 2>that all these whether it's a major or an indie,

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<v Speaker 2>the person that signs you is your cheerleader. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>a coach who drafts a player. And if that coach

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<v Speaker 2>or that executive in a label gets fired or leaves,

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<v Speaker 2>the next guy that comes out comes after him isn't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily going to be brooding for you or trying to

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<v Speaker 2>help you as much. It's so you was. His point

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<v Speaker 2>was always know who you're working with, and if you

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<v Speaker 2>do one record deals, there can't be that much instability

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<v Speaker 2>within that short period of time, so you can kind

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<v Speaker 2>of control a lot more of your destiny and how

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<v Speaker 2>much attention you're getting from your label, because sometimes you'll

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of stories of bands that sign

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<v Speaker 2>like a three record or five record deal and the

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<v Speaker 2>guy who championed them leaves pretty soon into it and

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<v Speaker 2>they're kind of shelved or ignored, not prioritized in any way.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think we were just mainly concerned about how

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<v Speaker 2>fair the deal was. We enjoyed the people at Dual Tone,

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<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't I gotta give most of the credit

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<v Speaker 2>to Richard Grabil. He really helped us navigate these things

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<v Speaker 2>that we were just frankly just happy to not be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, working side jobs, which was just happy to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to play music and get I was thirty

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, so I wasn't sure it was ever

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<v Speaker 2>gonna happen, So there was not a lot like being

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<v Speaker 2>taken for granted. But I feel like it helps to

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<v Speaker 2>be a little older because you can say no a

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<v Speaker 2>little easier because you've been the whole thing has been

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<v Speaker 2>a failure up to that point.

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<v Speaker 1>So, okay, you're in Colorado, Grables in New York. Ha'd

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<v Speaker 1>you hook up with him?

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<v Speaker 2>So there was a band called Rah Rah Riot and

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<v Speaker 2>there my neighbor happened to be friends with one of

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<v Speaker 2>the band member's parents, and that was their late that

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<v Speaker 2>was their lawyer. And so I remember I had my

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<v Speaker 2>wisdom teeth taken out and I could barely speak, and

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<v Speaker 2>I got this management contract offered to us, and I

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<v Speaker 2>sent Richard an email and I was like, please, are

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<v Speaker 2>you Are you gonna work with us? Because I had

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<v Speaker 2>I had there was the only lawyer I knew to contact.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the only person I had access to. And

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<v Speaker 2>he's like, I only listened to physical copy. So I

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<v Speaker 2>had to send him a CD. And then I kind

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<v Speaker 2>of said, hey, it's been a couple of weeks and

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<v Speaker 2>I just got this management offer. Can you please get

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<v Speaker 2>back to me one way or another? And he's like,

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<v Speaker 2>don't sign that and call me right now. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I called him and I could barely speak, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, redshird, I just got my wisdom teacher

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<v Speaker 2>like and he was so excited for us, and he

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<v Speaker 2>loved the music and he started helping us immediately. So

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<v Speaker 2>we luckily didn't sign some really bad management contract to

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<v Speaker 2>begin with, and he helped us kind of navigate it

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<v Speaker 2>all from from there from there on.

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<v Speaker 1>How many managers have the Lumineers had.

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<v Speaker 2>That type of manager, like I'd called a day to

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<v Speaker 2>day not a tour manager. We've had just two.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So the guy who will offered you the contract,

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<v Speaker 1>did you end up making a deal with him or

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<v Speaker 1>did you move on?

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<v Speaker 2>We did, but we amended some things on that that

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<v Speaker 2>had we not, it would have been a mess, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to ever like break up with that manager. You know

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<v Speaker 2>there's like sunset clauses and things like that that they

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<v Speaker 2>put in there is like it helps them, but it

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<v Speaker 2>hurts the artists. You can't really move on very easily.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did it end with the first manager?

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<v Speaker 2>So Dave Minor was He's based out of Seattle. He was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was Dave Minor and Kristin Green and there were

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<v Speaker 2>a few others, but they were like the main sort

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<v Speaker 2>of managers entitle and Dave was like basically canceled. He

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<v Speaker 2>was like accused of something like double digit sexual harassment

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<v Speaker 2>charges that was in like twenty seventeen or eighteen, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it all happened like really fast. He called us

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<v Speaker 2>on like a Wednesday, he said, this articles coming out

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<v Speaker 2>and I want you to know about it first, and

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<v Speaker 2>he tried to kind of explain it and we were

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<v Speaker 2>like whoa. And then talk to the lawyers, and then

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<v Speaker 2>by Sunday we had let him go and as well

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<v Speaker 2>as like the whole management, we wanted a fresh start,

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<v Speaker 2>and and then we interviewed that I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>you want to go there, but we interviewed like ten

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<v Speaker 2>more so after that, we're making our third record and

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<v Speaker 2>we're in the middle of it, and we scheduled like

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<v Speaker 2>nine or ten two to three hour meetings throughout the

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<v Speaker 2>course of like a week or week and a half

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<v Speaker 2>where they all flew to Denver and it was some

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<v Speaker 2>of the most amazing management groups and managers and you

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<v Speaker 2>could ask for because at that point we were like

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<v Speaker 2>proven goods to some people. So we met with like

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<v Speaker 2>az like just people I'd only heard about or see,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, seen on documentaries, and it was really it

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<v Speaker 2>was really cool to hear their their viewpoints on how

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<v Speaker 2>either they could help us or their philosophies about music

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<v Speaker 2>and how to essentially like help their artists. And we

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<v Speaker 2>ended up going with Activists, which is run by mainly

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<v Speaker 2>Bernie Cahill Matt maher mayor I think you say his name.

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<v Speaker 2>I always messed it up because I had a friend

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<v Speaker 2>grown up. They went by mar and anyway we like

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, an Anna cole Ender is also someone

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<v Speaker 2>if she ever listens to this, ione her to know.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so grateful for. But but we ended up going

0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.840
<v Speaker 2>with them. But it was something where I didn't really

0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>expect to go with them, you know, like if you

0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.040
<v Speaker 2>just base it purely on roster. There they were working

0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.600
<v Speaker 2>with Ded and Co and I'm just I had I'd

0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.400
<v Speaker 2>seen the dead and different iterations of them, and it

0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.040
<v Speaker 2>just felt like, well, we're not a jam band. I

0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know how they're gonna know how to deal with

0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.200
<v Speaker 2>us in terms of like that's such an improvisational band.

0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.839
<v Speaker 2>We're more like a writer kind of band. And then

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.439
<v Speaker 2>when we heard them and we had a meeting with them,

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 2>it was just kind of like it felt like a

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.120
<v Speaker 2>perfect fit in their personality and what they were trying

0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 2>to do, and they had just had a person leave.

0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>It was Zach Brown had left them to start his

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 2>own management group, so it was like he had left

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 2>and left this void that they were just all had

0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 2>everyone kind of ready for us. They didn't have to

0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 2>hire kind of many more people to make it work

0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.880
<v Speaker 2>with us, So it was kind of like good timing

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 2>for both both sides. But it was kind of surreal

0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 2>because we were working on our third record and writing

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.240
<v Speaker 2>it and then having these race sort of stressful meetings

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 2>with these you know, people who were all big deals

0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>and we're having them in these shitty like I remember

0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 2>we had meetings in this coffeehouse and then this dive bar,

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.320
<v Speaker 2>and that was like we do back and forth each

0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.319
<v Speaker 2>day two hours and one or two hours in the other,

0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.599
<v Speaker 2>and it was just like you glaze over after a

0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 2>certain amount of like hearing the same speeches over and over.

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.400
<v Speaker 1>So since you were dealing with the top layer of management,

0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 1>what'd you learn about visions, personalities? What was the experience

0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 1>like and what were they selling you?

0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not quite sure. It's like we made a T

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 2>shirt with all the things that were sett in every

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.440
<v Speaker 2>meeting over and over as a joke, because there would

0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 2>be like the thirty thousand foot view is are they

0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.160
<v Speaker 2>say boots on the ground or they'd say it was

0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.199
<v Speaker 2>very like there were some platitudes or cliches they would

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.280
<v Speaker 2>throw out there. I think what I was really really

0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.600
<v Speaker 2>had a nose for or wanted to hear was what

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>they really thought they could do and had done with

0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.160
<v Speaker 2>their with bands in the past. Like I really enjoyed

0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.920
<v Speaker 2>speaking with the manager of the Black Keys. I thought

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 2>he was so thoughtful and he sort of customized things.

0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.040
<v Speaker 2>When he was talking about them and how he did things,

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.600
<v Speaker 2>it was like, well, that's a real thoughtful or artistic

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 2>approach to helping a band grow. It's not just like

0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:57.400
<v Speaker 2>paint by number make them bigger. He was because I

0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.200
<v Speaker 2>was commenting, like I love one of their videos where

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 2>it's this dinosaur or it's just saying lyrics and it's

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 2>like a dinosaur puppet and then there's a girl at

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the pool and it's I think it's called my ex

0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:12.360
<v Speaker 2>girl or my next girl, and you know, things like that,

0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.120
<v Speaker 2>and so I think, you know, he was an example

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 2>of someone we really wanted to work with. But the

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 2>the deal breaker for us was like he was a

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 2>one stop shop. He was a one man band. So

0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>if the Black Keys were putting out a record and

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.440
<v Speaker 2>we were putting out a record, there's only one of him,

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, and we needed like we needed a team,

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 2>you know. So uh, But he was an example of

0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 2>someone just like really impressed me as far as like

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.360
<v Speaker 2>how he wasn't just treating every act the same, and

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.200
<v Speaker 2>he had done his homework on us and had figured

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>out ways he thought we could do some things better.

0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>So but it's a little bit like some people surprise

0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 2>you with like how they just kind of show up

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and they maybe rely more on their reputation than having

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:02.320
<v Speaker 2>anything original to say, and that that could be That

0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 2>was disappointing for me. But on the flip side, some

0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 2>people really shock me with how much energy they put

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.400
<v Speaker 2>into it and like thoughtfulness they had, because I think

0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 2>that's what it takes. It's really not especially now more

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.760
<v Speaker 2>than ever. You need to figure out how to make

0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.720
<v Speaker 2>an audience understand an artist in the way that the

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 2>artist feels authentic to otherwise it won't work. And you

0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.160
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of examples of I mean, I know,

0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.240
<v Speaker 2>I think you interviewed Billy strings On here. I met

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 2>him at Willie's ninetieth birthday, and just thinking about how

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.000
<v Speaker 2>two decades ago, I don't know if he has the

0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.200
<v Speaker 2>same opportunity. And now, all of a sudden, you have

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.640
<v Speaker 2>this person who's like a musical household name, and he's

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.840
<v Speaker 2>playing a style of music that isn't necessarily always in vogue,

0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>but people know about him. I think that's pretty great,

0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.760
<v Speaker 2>But that also takes either the artist or the management

0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.760
<v Speaker 2>with the artists to try to communicate that out to

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 2>the to the audience.

0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.439
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back a step. How'd you end up with

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a manager in Seattle?

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.439
<v Speaker 2>We were doing a residency in New York and me

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>and Jerry grew up you know, we ended up moving

0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>to Denver, but we grew up in New Jersey and

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.400
<v Speaker 2>we just we were, you know, a short drive into

0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.840
<v Speaker 2>New York City, and so we were. We did a

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 2>residency at the Living Room. It doesn't exist anymore. It closed,

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.359
<v Speaker 2>but it was like this great, amazing club that in

0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.439
<v Speaker 2>New York that I want to say. It was like

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.840
<v Speaker 2>near Chinatown. And it was the unique part about it

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.520
<v Speaker 2>was they didn't charge a door fee on like almost

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.159
<v Speaker 2>every other small club. They just passed the hat and

0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.480
<v Speaker 2>so it offered you a chance to play to strangers,

0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of like Rockwood Music Hall is now to play

0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 2>the total stranger and have people just walk up and

0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 2>discover your music. So we had done a residency I

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.960
<v Speaker 2>believe it was in let's call it February of two

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 2>thousand and eleven, and we had or twenty ten, it

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.040
<v Speaker 2>must have been, and we had we had five tuesdays.

0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:22.639
<v Speaker 2>I think there was happening to be five tuesdays in

0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:24.399
<v Speaker 2>that month. So the management flew out for one of

0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.840
<v Speaker 2>those and express this was the Seattle based management, that

0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.400
<v Speaker 2>they might be interested in working with us, and they

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.879
<v Speaker 2>wanted to feel us out, and honestly, we didn't have

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 2>any other like suitors at that point. We were like whoa,

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.480
<v Speaker 2>this is cool and then things and we were recording

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.600
<v Speaker 2>all these songs at our home studio and like at

0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Jared's parents house at that time as well.

0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:53.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, what did the first manager do to help your career?

0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.159
<v Speaker 2>I think he saw so Dave Minor was a is

0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.040
<v Speaker 2>a restaurant guy and then he got into music. So

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.320
<v Speaker 2>I think he's he looked at it differently, which I think,

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, some people like anything it can be a disadvantage,

0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:12.200
<v Speaker 2>but I think he's he just saw he saw certain

0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>pillars that were important to like what we were trying

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.480
<v Speaker 2>to do. So one of the things that he instilled

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:25.520
<v Speaker 2>in me and maybe understand was that the whole, like

0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>music as a whole, is like you know, if you're

0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 2>a band, all of the things that you do beyond

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.560
<v Speaker 2>the music. So the music is the most important thing,

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.159
<v Speaker 2>and that's the true art. And then when you're out

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.680
<v Speaker 2>and managers are trying to help you promote it basically

0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.040
<v Speaker 2>get it heard in some way and recognized and distinguished

0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 2>from the ocean of other music that's out there. He

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.440
<v Speaker 2>was really big on this idea that like it's all

0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 2>an ecosystem. So you don't want you want your live

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:00.960
<v Speaker 2>oh you should be wor on your live show. You

0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.440
<v Speaker 2>should be putting a lot of energy into sounding good

0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.720
<v Speaker 2>live and having a good show. But also you want

0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 2>to if you want radio to play your songs, you

0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.080
<v Speaker 2>have to visit radio stations and you have to you know,

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of like put in a lot of miles in

0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:21.119
<v Speaker 2>terms of doing that. You can interview with different publications.

0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:22.920
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't mean that they're going to say nice things

0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.719
<v Speaker 2>about you, but you know, you kind of just you

0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 2>have to put yourself out there in a way that

0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was just like you make good records

0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.720
<v Speaker 2>and people find them, and it was. It was very

0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:40.160
<v Speaker 2>apparent after that that touring will, will is and will

0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.720
<v Speaker 2>always be the most important thing you do beyond the

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.080
<v Speaker 2>music you make. It's like, if you're not willing to

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:51.879
<v Speaker 2>tour and tour hard, you're just kneecapping yourself immediately. So

0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I think part of him is you

0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.000
<v Speaker 2>made me understand that there is there's more to this

0:20:58.080 --> 0:20:59.760
<v Speaker 2>than just the making of the music, because I think

0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.159
<v Speaker 2>me and Ja were so dedicated as writers and we

0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.960
<v Speaker 2>just love writing music that we didn't really want to

0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.760
<v Speaker 2>have time. We didn't really want to do the other things,

0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.680
<v Speaker 2>and we had to learn how to do those things.

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you have success, your a known quantity. What have

0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Bernie an activists brought to the table.

0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.080
<v Speaker 2>I think I think one of the things they did

0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 2>immediately that it really impressed me was we were making

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.639
<v Speaker 2>an album, our third album, we called three because it

0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:37.359
<v Speaker 2>was about it was our third album, but then it

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 2>became about these three generations, all focused on how this

0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:49.439
<v Speaker 2>this matriarch we called a Gloria, she was an alcoholic,

0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.199
<v Speaker 2>and how that kind of had this splintering effect, this

0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.000
<v Speaker 2>ripple effect through the family and how it affected each generation.

0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.520
<v Speaker 1>And wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we get to Bernie.

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.080
<v Speaker 1>How did that become the theme of the album.

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.679
<v Speaker 2>It was my mother in law just passed away. It

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.000
<v Speaker 2>was about her, so like ever since I got together

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.760
<v Speaker 2>with my wife, Brandy, that was in two thousand and ten,

0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.960
<v Speaker 2>we've been I mean, I wrote the song dead Sea

0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:16.840
<v Speaker 2>on our first album because she said, you never let

0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.359
<v Speaker 2>me sink down. You're like my dead Sea. Because she

0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>was dealing with this really heavy thing and her dad

0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:24.840
<v Speaker 2>had died. My dad had died, so we bonded over that.

0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.480
<v Speaker 2>And then her mom was a severe alcoholic. She could

0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:32.440
<v Speaker 2>drink like a gallon of Tito's vodka day and was

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>arrested in different jails, and she was homeless and she

0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.199
<v Speaker 2>got taken into the emergency room ninety nine times in

0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.639
<v Speaker 2>one year. I mean, she's and we bought her house

0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:43.439
<v Speaker 2>at some point when we finally had a little bit

0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.360
<v Speaker 2>of money, and we had a victor from that house.

0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.920
<v Speaker 2>It was just sad, like the whole thing. So there

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>was nothing left for me to do in a way

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.160
<v Speaker 2>except write about it. I was trying to process it,

0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.159
<v Speaker 2>and I asked Brandy, and then I asked her family

0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 2>if that was okay in a way. Is that okay

0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:04.760
<v Speaker 2>with you guys. I'm not trying to, you know, make

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:06.840
<v Speaker 2>you feel terrible buy us, but I'm this is how

0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:11.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm dealing with it. So we made this record, and

0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 2>then we had made these music videos for previous records.

0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:16.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, the first album was kind of like they

0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 2>were ambiguous videos. Second one, Cleopatra, had some really I

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.200
<v Speaker 2>think interesting videos. This great director, Isaac Rove Shunkar, I

0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 2>had to come up with this idea of like tying

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.000
<v Speaker 2>a through line through all these songs. So on the

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.199
<v Speaker 2>third record, we kind of wanted to ticket to like

0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:41.880
<v Speaker 2>a different, different level. And so I have to get

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.439
<v Speaker 2>his name, he says, Kevin. I should know this. I

0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 2>just haven't spoken to him in a little while. He's

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.880
<v Speaker 2>the man, though, give me two seconds of just looking

0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:57.680
<v Speaker 2>up his name. Kevin Phillips is his name. So Kevin Phillips.

0:23:57.720 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons why we hired him was because

0:23:59.920 --> 0:24:04.000
<v Speaker 2>he would often cast and work with people who look real.

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>They didn't look like models or Hollywood. It looked like

0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.800
<v Speaker 2>a documentary almost, and so we we wanted to do

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.879
<v Speaker 2>a song every song had its own music video and

0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:20.159
<v Speaker 2>it formed a short film. So our activist comes in

0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:22.560
<v Speaker 2>is we tell them we want to do this. The

0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:24.840
<v Speaker 2>label wants to help us a little bit, but basically

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.479
<v Speaker 2>Jared and I self finance the videos and it's a

0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:33.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of money and they they're supportive of this whole thing.

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.240
<v Speaker 2>And the album is pretty dark. It's pretty in a

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:41.840
<v Speaker 2>way depressing to certain people, but we really Jare's brother,

0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.840
<v Speaker 2>who's my friend, died of a heroin overdose at age nineteen,

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:52.639
<v Speaker 2>so between him and Brandy's mom, there were things to

0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of sing about and feel like grounded in, and

0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:58.800
<v Speaker 2>so we made these videos and they were pretty like

0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 2>unflinching in that they try to tell the story of

0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.399
<v Speaker 2>what was really happening with an addict and how it

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:08.200
<v Speaker 2>affects a family, and they got they helped us. Activists

0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.040
<v Speaker 2>helped us along the way, and they got it into

0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:13.800
<v Speaker 2>They helped us get into Toronto International Film Festival, TIFF

0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and the Nashville and Geneva and a bunch of others,

0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and they kind of really helped us try to get

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:25.119
<v Speaker 2>that thing seen as best they could. And that I

0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 2>remember sending our manager, Bernie Jimmy Sparks, which is like

0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:30.960
<v Speaker 2>the longest song on the album and it's a story song,

0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 2>and he was like super into it and supportive right away.

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:38.400
<v Speaker 2>And that wasn't like a hit. That wasn't like at

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.760
<v Speaker 2>all what a manager typically wants to hear, which is

0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 2>like they hear a song that's short and fast, and

0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 2>they hear dollar signs. He was in this long, like

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.159
<v Speaker 2>six or seven minute story song. So I think in

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:51.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways we got off on good foot

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:55.879
<v Speaker 2>good footing with them because they supported us wholeheartedly in

0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.200
<v Speaker 2>trying to get this three film scene and the album heard,

0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 2>and it it eventually got optioned into making to be

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:10.040
<v Speaker 2>made into like a TV show, and that's like still

0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>in the works. We're gonna see what's gonna happen. But

0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:16.919
<v Speaker 2>like John Mark Valet was like involved in it and

0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 2>he was gonna spearhead the whole thing, and then he

0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:22.600
<v Speaker 2>tragically passed away and so it's been tabled a little bit.

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:26.520
<v Speaker 2>But that was all through this new activist management group

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.200
<v Speaker 2>that like kind of got creative with how to help

0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:31.800
<v Speaker 2>us get this album heard.

0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back and do a little backfilm. So

0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Jerror's brother died of a heroin overdose.

0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when he was nineteen. Yeah, so I grew up.

0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:46.760
<v Speaker 2>My brother is Ja's age, my little brother, and then

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 2>I was friends with Jerr's older brother's name is Josh,

0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.679
<v Speaker 2>and so I mean we were real close when we

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:54.960
<v Speaker 2>were young, and we used to me and him, we

0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:58.439
<v Speaker 2>would take drawing classes together and spent a lot of time.

0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:01.120
<v Speaker 2>He'd come on family vacations with us and stuff like that.

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:05.880
<v Speaker 2>And then, yeah, he had a lot of social anxiety

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.520
<v Speaker 2>and he would sort of self medicate, I think, from

0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.720
<v Speaker 2>to try to deal with it, and it just kept escalating.

0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:15.399
<v Speaker 2>Like I was there when he took his first drink

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:17.919
<v Speaker 2>and you could see like the way he drank was

0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:21.320
<v Speaker 2>to the point of it was to get out of

0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:24.359
<v Speaker 2>his head and get out of his body. And that

0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:26.800
<v Speaker 2>seemed like he only knew how to take it to eleven.

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.639
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like a middle ground, and he just I

0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:33.119
<v Speaker 2>think he kept searching for things to numb that feeling

0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.600
<v Speaker 2>of anxiety that it was really deep within him. And

0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Jerre was sixteen at the time, and it was a

0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 2>lot for him. It would be a lot for anybody

0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 2>in any age, but to be that young and to

0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:47.280
<v Speaker 2>lose your brother, it was like pretty pretty awful.

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Is he something you can ever get over? I should

0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:52.520
<v Speaker 1>be asking him, but I'm talking to you.

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think so. But I think it's something

0:27:56.200 --> 0:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you learn how to live with and try to try

0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:03.160
<v Speaker 2>to not It's not like you're trying to forget him

0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:06.040
<v Speaker 2>or forget it, but you're trying to like live with that,

0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. It seems like that's the

0:28:09.000 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 2>way Jarry's trying to deal with it. It's still remember him,

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:14.959
<v Speaker 2>but it's I think it's it'll always be pretty pretty

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>raw and just under the surface.

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 1>It still exists in retrospect. Well two things. Did you

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:24.080
<v Speaker 1>see it coming?

0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.639
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean not really. I was like eighteen when

0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 2>he died, and he was nineteen, and he went to

0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:34.320
<v Speaker 2>rehab and sort of had to get pulled from our school.

0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:38.239
<v Speaker 2>And I remember dropping off like he played guitar and

0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.480
<v Speaker 2>so did I. And I remember dropping off like guitar

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.760
<v Speaker 2>player magazine to him. Afew me and a buddy walk

0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:48.160
<v Speaker 2>went over to his house and he wasn't like allowed

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:53.120
<v Speaker 2>to come to the door. And his mom, who I love, Kathy,

0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:55.320
<v Speaker 2>she she took the magazine. She said, thanks so much.

0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Joshua really loved these and so it was like the

0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:00.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of last time I saw him, but I didn't

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:02.320
<v Speaker 2>even get to see him, but we kind of knew

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:06.680
<v Speaker 2>something was a lot more serious than we realized. And

0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:09.840
<v Speaker 2>then but at the same time, you're so I was

0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:12.680
<v Speaker 2>so young and ignorant of like you just feel invincible,

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.200
<v Speaker 2>so you're you don't think anything bad's gonna happen like that.

0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 1>So we're in New Jersey.

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Did grow up a little town called Ramsey, New Jersey.

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:27.080
<v Speaker 2>It's near you know, it's funny. I think Springsteen has

0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:30.120
<v Speaker 2>a reference to mahwa and Johnny in ninety nine, right,

0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:32.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's right, that's our neighboring town.

0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:37.080
<v Speaker 1>I certainly went to college with people from Mahwah. So

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:39.560
<v Speaker 1>what was the town like growing up.

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 2>It's a tiny town, fifteen thousand people, suburb, a lot

0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:51.680
<v Speaker 2>of commuters into New York City. I'd say like middle class,

0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:56.040
<v Speaker 2>upper middle class. It's like neighbors to the town that

0:29:56.120 --> 0:30:00.480
<v Speaker 2>The Sopranos is set in, Like it's it's kind of

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:03.840
<v Speaker 2>like the Surprise is the real like wealthy area in

0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 2>that and that was Upper Saddle River kind of like

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>near us. It's an interesting place to grow up. It

0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:12.520
<v Speaker 2>was a really for me idyllic place because you were

0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:15.680
<v Speaker 2>in this what felt like safe place, like a little

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>safety bubble, but you're on the doorstep of New York,

0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.959
<v Speaker 2>where it feels like anything can happen, and there's all

0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:26.280
<v Speaker 2>these all this it's known as the greatest city in

0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:28.240
<v Speaker 2>the world, and you're right next to it, but you're

0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of out of the madness as a kid, but

0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>you have access to it. So I thought it was

0:30:32.840 --> 0:30:34.120
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful place to live.

0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:37.120
<v Speaker 1>And at what point did you start going into New

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:37.760
<v Speaker 1>York alone?

0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.760
<v Speaker 2>It was like nineteen twenty something like that. We went

0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 2>into show, I mean my first show. I have a

0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>tattoo of it on my arm. Is like me and Josh,

0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Jerry's brother, went to go see Bob Dylan and Joni

0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Mitchell at Maison Square Garden when we were like fifteen.

0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 2>And then I remember I went and saw Neil Young

0:30:55.160 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 2>solo at the theater there when I was sixteen. So

0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I went and saw shows really young. But as far

0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.040
<v Speaker 2>as playing shows, we weren't playing shows until probably like

0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:08.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty one.

0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:11.000
<v Speaker 1>And what did your parents do for a living.

0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.840
<v Speaker 2>My mom was a preschool teacher and my dad was

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:16.640
<v Speaker 2>a psychologist.

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:19.920
<v Speaker 1>And are they still with us?

0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 2>My mom is my dad passed away in two thousand and.

0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Seven, and were they together when he passed?

0:31:28.200 --> 0:31:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So what was it like.

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Having a psychologist for a father?

0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was perfect for me. I was a

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.200
<v Speaker 2>sensitive kid who had a lot of feelings. I could,

0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:41.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, how to work through a lot of them.

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 2>And he was a great listener. I don't think like

0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>doctors and like any other profession, not all of them

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:52.959
<v Speaker 2>are created equal. I just he was particularly good at

0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:54.920
<v Speaker 2>what he did. You know. He grew up in a

0:31:54.960 --> 0:31:58.520
<v Speaker 2>family where his brother went to Vietnam and two weeks

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.560
<v Speaker 2>in he weirdly he volunteered to go to Vietnam. Two

0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:05.800
<v Speaker 2>weeks in he got killed. And that was his oldest brother,

0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:08.920
<v Speaker 2>and he had there were four brothers altogether, so he

0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:13.840
<v Speaker 2>was the he was the second youngest. My brother was sorry,

0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:16.640
<v Speaker 2>my dad was, and so when that happened, it kind

0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:18.880
<v Speaker 2>of just shattered the family. It made the parents go

0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:23.720
<v Speaker 2>pretty numb. And so my dad was was I think,

0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:27.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty dead set on trying to make people connect and

0:32:27.440 --> 0:32:31.520
<v Speaker 2>feel again, and that was one of his like special

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 2>powers or something like. He came home from college and

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:42.120
<v Speaker 2>his family still talks about how he he hugged everyone

0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 2>in the family, mom, Dad, all the brothers, and he

0:32:44.560 --> 0:32:46.160
<v Speaker 2>told them he loved them, and that was the first

0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:48.600
<v Speaker 2>time they had ever done that, and he was the

0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.000
<v Speaker 2>one to sort of crossed the picket line of that.

0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:55.200
<v Speaker 2>So I think he was a very to me, a

0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:57.520
<v Speaker 2>very interesting guy because he also before that got in

0:32:57.600 --> 0:32:58.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fights as a kid. He was a

0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:02.240
<v Speaker 2>really tough dude, and then came back and found this

0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 2>new part of himself. I found out he could be

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.360
<v Speaker 2>a really good listener, and so he had his duality

0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 2>of like we all knew he was a badass and tough,

0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:13.160
<v Speaker 2>but he was really good at just holding the space

0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:15.160
<v Speaker 2>for someone like a teenager like me at the time

0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>when I was growing up and listening. So I could

0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.240
<v Speaker 2>confess anything to him. And the rule was like I

0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:23.320
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't really get in trouble necessarily. It was it was

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.400
<v Speaker 2>a bigger, much bigger sin to lie. So if I

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:28.960
<v Speaker 2>told them I smoked weed or drank, they were like,

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:32.760
<v Speaker 2>all right, well, keep it a moderation. But like if

0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:35.200
<v Speaker 2>I kept something from them, it's like, what are you doing?

0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Just tell me what you're doing, you know. So honesty

0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.880
<v Speaker 2>was encouraged and and I felt like I had a

0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 2>real listener in my life. And I've had a therapist

0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:50.239
<v Speaker 2>since then with the band and Independent, and they they

0:33:50.280 --> 0:33:53.040
<v Speaker 2>are not all the same. So I feel like, looking back,

0:33:53.800 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>it could be really annoying to have a therapist as

0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.680
<v Speaker 2>a parent, but in my case it was it was

0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:05.480
<v Speaker 2>really nice.

0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:08.120
<v Speaker 1>So how many kids in the family?

0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 2>We had three? I had an older I have an

0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:12.840
<v Speaker 2>older sister and a younger brother.

0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:18.120
<v Speaker 1>And how did they co pandle your success?

0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:22.080
<v Speaker 2>They do well with it. I mean, I think they

0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:25.200
<v Speaker 2>were just worried because I was almost I was basically

0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:27.759
<v Speaker 2>thirty when I got signed. So like I remember going

0:34:27.800 --> 0:34:32.640
<v Speaker 2>to my brother's like college family weekend, and I had

0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 2>long hair, and I was this dude who like worked

0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:40.640
<v Speaker 2>at restaurants and in that awkward, creepy like you're twenty five,

0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:44.880
<v Speaker 2>twenty six and you're like pursuing something that at a

0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:47.680
<v Speaker 2>family weekend when you're meeting other families and they're like, hey, buddy,

0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:49.360
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, musician,

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.680
<v Speaker 2>you just come across like an idiot to a lot

0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:57.759
<v Speaker 2>of people, or misunderstood or just kind of outcasted. But

0:34:57.880 --> 0:35:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I felt like they were really supportive of me, and uh,

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 2>I think they were very secure in who they were,

0:35:06.000 --> 0:35:08.960
<v Speaker 2>so when it blew up, there were moments when my

0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:10.920
<v Speaker 2>brother would tease me, my little brother and say, like,

0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:15.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we went to like they'd get together and

0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:18.040
<v Speaker 2>my mom would be like playing videos of me like

0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:20.840
<v Speaker 2>at some show, and he's like, West isn't even here?

0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Can we just like hang out? And I think that

0:35:23.440 --> 0:35:25.640
<v Speaker 2>I think that's like eased off, and my mom is

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.080
<v Speaker 2>cool down with that and listen to my little brother.

0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:30.799
<v Speaker 2>But I think she was she was just excited because

0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I think she was relieved. But I think there it's

0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:37.680
<v Speaker 2>a testament to them because they're both pretty like accomplished

0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:40.359
<v Speaker 2>in their own right and and do their own thing,

0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:42.800
<v Speaker 2>and it can be happy for me, and I'm obviously

0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:44.799
<v Speaker 2>really happy for them, and so they've been like a

0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:47.120
<v Speaker 2>big support system through it, through it all.

0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you know why your name Wesley?

0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:55.960
<v Speaker 2>I gotta some sort of genealogy thing for my uncle.

0:35:56.280 --> 0:35:59.319
<v Speaker 2>It it was it was in the family, but not

0:35:59.440 --> 0:36:02.839
<v Speaker 2>much beyond it was somebody's middle name. It was either

0:36:02.840 --> 0:36:06.239
<v Speaker 2>gonna be Keith Wesley or Wesley Keith Schultz. And it

0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:10.000
<v Speaker 2>became I like Wesley better than Keith, So it worked

0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:11.320
<v Speaker 2>out okay.

0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:14.080
<v Speaker 1>So you're growing up, you say you're a sensitive kid,

0:36:14.680 --> 0:36:18.799
<v Speaker 1>good in school, bad in school, athlete, loan or what

0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of kid were you?

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:26.280
<v Speaker 2>All of those things. I was pretty good athletically, depending

0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:29.719
<v Speaker 2>on the sport, so I fit in that way. I

0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:31.640
<v Speaker 2>was good in school as far as like I knew

0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:35.000
<v Speaker 2>how to I knew how to pass classes and get

0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:37.920
<v Speaker 2>decent grades without having to try extremely hard, like I

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:41.440
<v Speaker 2>knew when I had to try, Like, you know, you

0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:42.759
<v Speaker 2>read the cliff notes, you don't have to read the

0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 2>whole book. You know. That came later in my life

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>when I started actually reading books. But I was like

0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:50.840
<v Speaker 2>very comfortable being alone and missing parties. But I was

0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:55.080
<v Speaker 2>also lucky that I kind of navigated between different groups

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 2>because I was like into athletics but not really and

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I felt like I could hang with

0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of different social groups, but I was never

0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:07.759
<v Speaker 2>really fully with one of them. And then I was

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:13.879
<v Speaker 2>like I felt pretty alone a lot of I don't

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:16.200
<v Speaker 2>know why, but I always had this deep sense of

0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:21.200
<v Speaker 2>longing and loneliness, like just in a temperament kind of way.

0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:25.440
<v Speaker 2>So I was always writing poems and poetry and rhyming.

0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I always loved doing that, And you know what began

0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:32.360
<v Speaker 2>is drawing. Me and Josh were drawing, and that was

0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:35.719
<v Speaker 2>the kind of solitary thing. It became writing, and then

0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:39.400
<v Speaker 2>it became playing guitar and stuff, so I would say.

0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 2>And then in school I was like I got in

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:48.399
<v Speaker 2>trouble for behavioral stuff, like, you know, just goofing off

0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:52.960
<v Speaker 2>in class and being a bit of a having making

0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:55.640
<v Speaker 2>my friends laugh. And maybe I remember I was supposed

0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:57.360
<v Speaker 2>to be on some honorable thing, but they kept me

0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.520
<v Speaker 2>off because of my behavior. It was like my mom

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:05.440
<v Speaker 2>was so mad. But in a way, it was pretty innocent.

0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:10.319
<v Speaker 2>It was more like you know, telling I didn't like.

0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:14.279
<v Speaker 2>I didn't like when any adult was condescending, so I

0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:16.319
<v Speaker 2>or if I feel like I was being forced to

0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:18.080
<v Speaker 2>do something, so I would act out against that. But

0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:19.480
<v Speaker 2>it was overall pretty innocent.

0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:27.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So now people around the world know your name,

0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:31.360
<v Speaker 1>you played it tens of thousands. How does that help

0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:34.080
<v Speaker 1>or not help with your loneliness.

0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, in some ways, it gives you access to really

0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.719
<v Speaker 2>interesting people. I've heard that said, and I agree. It's

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.839
<v Speaker 2>like I've met some people that you just get to

0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:50.840
<v Speaker 2>meet them. You don't have to. They're if they're on

0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the inside of fame so to speak, and quotes there

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 2>and they feel like you get that there's less to

0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.200
<v Speaker 2>talk about in that zone of life and they can

0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:04.000
<v Speaker 2>just be a human being, and I crave that. Like

0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:08.680
<v Speaker 2>if I remember I got to meet Chappelle, or shit,

0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:12.719
<v Speaker 2>i've met a comedian I really like today's Shane Gillis,

0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Or there's different people in comedy world, or in let's

0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 2>say restaurants, Like we joked that the chefs are like

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:22.160
<v Speaker 2>the rock stars of our world because we're it's you

0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:24.080
<v Speaker 2>get to meet all these different people that are excited

0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:26.560
<v Speaker 2>about what you do and you're excited about what they do,

0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:29.959
<v Speaker 2>and it's a beautiful way to share. I would say

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.560
<v Speaker 2>we're we're in a unique position as as the lumineers

0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:39.040
<v Speaker 2>because no one really knows what we look like on

0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:41.799
<v Speaker 2>a large scale, or knows my name, or they know

0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:45.160
<v Speaker 2>our songs. Our songs might be famous, but our our

0:39:45.239 --> 0:39:48.560
<v Speaker 2>personal lives have been I think we got grandfathered in

0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:52.719
<v Speaker 2>to like this generation that we weren't. They didn't ask

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:54.480
<v Speaker 2>that of us, and they no longer want that from

0:39:54.560 --> 0:39:59.080
<v Speaker 2>us anyway. So like if I could be totally wrong here,

0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:01.719
<v Speaker 2>but I just went and saw day. You know a

0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:04.319
<v Speaker 2>few months ago, and like, I don't think whether they

0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:06.919
<v Speaker 2>have a TikTok account or not, it really matters. It's

0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:11.719
<v Speaker 2>like it's green day. And I feel like in some

0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:13.719
<v Speaker 2>ways those if you're an older artist and you start

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:15.360
<v Speaker 2>to try to keep up with the jones as it

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:19.040
<v Speaker 2>can be awkward anyway. So just like another, I like

0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:21.360
<v Speaker 2>the mystery of some of the bands I grew up

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:24.200
<v Speaker 2>listening to, and I feel like our fans hopefully don't

0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:25.880
<v Speaker 2>mind that there's a little bit of a layer of

0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:30.000
<v Speaker 2>mystery there, because it is like annoying to me that

0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:32.520
<v Speaker 2>if if if I was to be asked to be

0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:36.359
<v Speaker 2>a broadcaster full time of my life and my personality

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.080
<v Speaker 2>and hey, I'm over here with the it's just I

0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>can't do that. It would I would suck at it

0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:44.120
<v Speaker 2>and know one it would make this a lot less fun,

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.279
<v Speaker 2>you know. It's like all all the perks of like

0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:50.640
<v Speaker 2>So I think I think basically like most of it,

0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:52.680
<v Speaker 2>I never really cared that much about. But I love

0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:56.680
<v Speaker 2>getting to know people like that. You don't get to

0:40:56.680 --> 0:40:58.000
<v Speaker 2>see that side of them that often.

0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:03.240
<v Speaker 1>So at what point do you pick up a musical instrument?

0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:03.960
<v Speaker 1>How old are you?

0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 2>It was like sixteen fifteen sixteen. I mean I was

0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:12.520
<v Speaker 2>playing trumpet, you know, you know, in school, and I

0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>remember that. I I remember the guy telling me you

0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:21.439
<v Speaker 2>were verbe. We didn't get along that well, and he said,

0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 2>I want to put you first chair, and you're the

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:26.000
<v Speaker 2>best trumpet player, but you don't practice your scales and

0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:28.000
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell the rest of the students that it's

0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:30.000
<v Speaker 2>okay to do that. And I was like, well, I

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:32.239
<v Speaker 2>could play the songs better than anyone else. He's like,

0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:34.680
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, and I was like, I don't agree with this,

0:41:34.719 --> 0:41:38.399
<v Speaker 2>and I just like walked down. And I always felt

0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:39.920
<v Speaker 2>like it was like, well, what's the point of this.

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.040
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was to play the song? So I

0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>knew I had like some level of acumen when it

0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:49.560
<v Speaker 2>came to that and like remembering lyrics and holding a

0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:53.279
<v Speaker 2>melody and things like that. But I didn't really pick

0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:55.719
<v Speaker 2>up a real instrument again until I was sixteen and

0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I played started playing guitar.

0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:02.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're growing up up. It's the MTV era. To

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:06.120
<v Speaker 1>what degree were you watching MTV into those acts into

0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:07.000
<v Speaker 1>popular music?

0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:10.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have cables, so I wasn't watching it. I

0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 2>wish I did. I would say I was really, really

0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:20.120
<v Speaker 2>much more into My dad had all these. He had

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:22.960
<v Speaker 2>a few tapes that were in rotation in our car,

0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:25.440
<v Speaker 2>and we take like long road trips, so it was

0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:28.480
<v Speaker 2>mostly that. To be honest, I never music videos were

0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.080
<v Speaker 2>an exotic thing. I didn't really see many of them

0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:34.520
<v Speaker 2>growing up. I remember seeing like Soul Asylum, Runaway Train.

0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:37.239
<v Speaker 2>That's like one of my most vivid memories.

0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:41.040
<v Speaker 1>So what tapes was your father playing.

0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:44.840
<v Speaker 2>He had the Cars Greatest Hits. He's the big Greatest

0:42:44.880 --> 0:42:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Hits guy. He had the Cars, Billy Joel Talking Heads,

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.080
<v Speaker 2>and then he had this Leonard Cohen The Future album.

0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I think those were like the only ones we ever heard,

0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:56.120
<v Speaker 2>and they were great.

0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so why did you start playing the guitar?

0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:03.920
<v Speaker 2>I saw? So my brother in law is now he's

0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:07.080
<v Speaker 2>a Green Beret colonel, but at the time he was

0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:10.600
<v Speaker 2>just entering military school at West Point and.

0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:13.919
<v Speaker 1>It would slow down a little bit. So you met

0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:15.880
<v Speaker 1>your wife at a very young age.

0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:19.839
<v Speaker 2>Oh so, no, this is my I'm sorry, my sister's husband. Now.

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:23.399
<v Speaker 2>At the time, it was their boyfriend girlfriend and he

0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:25.719
<v Speaker 2>was going to West Point. So they knew each other

0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:27.359
<v Speaker 2>in high school. They dated and then he was going

0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:30.959
<v Speaker 2>to West Point and Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds came

0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:33.480
<v Speaker 2>through and did their duo thing, and he got me

0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:36.080
<v Speaker 2>ticket and I went and saw it with him, and

0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:38.799
<v Speaker 2>my mind was blown and I felt like it was

0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:42.279
<v Speaker 2>watching like a magic trick. And I soon after saw

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:45.520
<v Speaker 2>that Neil Young solo show, and again I was like,

0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:49.840
<v Speaker 2>how do you do that? What is that? And then

0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:53.359
<v Speaker 2>I started playing guitar and within a year or two,

0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 2>I think I started playing guitar in like ninety seven

0:43:55.640 --> 0:43:59.120
<v Speaker 2>or ninety eight, and and I have an old CD

0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:03.640
<v Speaker 2>of like Christmas of ninety nine. I made my dad

0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:05.480
<v Speaker 2>loved if you made him gifts, like he didn't want

0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:09.200
<v Speaker 2>you to buy anything, so I made him a home

0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 2>recorded like covers album with actually with some originals on

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.239
<v Speaker 2>it that I still have, like a CD where I

0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:18.480
<v Speaker 2>recorded on that really like the tiny little mic that

0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:20.680
<v Speaker 2>they used to give you with a computer, you know,

0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:26.920
<v Speaker 2>just a shitty little But I started playing because because

0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I saw these shows. I would say, I couldn't believe

0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:34.040
<v Speaker 2>how entranced I was by these shows. And then I

0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:37.840
<v Speaker 2>remember just it reminds me of Howard Stern because he

0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:42.080
<v Speaker 2>talks about watching his dad with the radio and how

0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>he just was fascinated by that and wanted to be

0:44:45.040 --> 0:44:49.520
<v Speaker 2>that to his dad. And I couldn't relate more to

0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:51.800
<v Speaker 2>the idea that I would sit there on these drives

0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:54.080
<v Speaker 2>with my dad and he'd be like hitting me in

0:44:54.080 --> 0:44:55.759
<v Speaker 2>the arm and be like, listen to this. Listen, like

0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:58.279
<v Speaker 2>listen to what playing a Warren Yvonne song and be

0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:02.080
<v Speaker 2>like like and start laughing, that's hilarious, or talking heads,

0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:04.520
<v Speaker 2>you know. He focused a lot on the lyrics, and

0:45:04.600 --> 0:45:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I think because he was a shrink, he loved when

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:08.839
<v Speaker 2>people were right on the edge of like and they

0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:13.160
<v Speaker 2>were so honest with what they were saying. And I

0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:15.600
<v Speaker 2>remember and then I remember him saying about Billy Joel,

0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:18.839
<v Speaker 2>like listen, all these styles this guy could do, and uh,

0:45:19.840 --> 0:45:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I remember thinking, like, wouldn't it be cool if he

0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:24.239
<v Speaker 2>thought that of me, Like not consciously, but just like

0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:26.840
<v Speaker 2>it was just like, this is my hero and his

0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:29.759
<v Speaker 2>hero is in that coming out of that speaker. And

0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that really drove home for me. Like, as

0:45:35.000 --> 0:45:36.799
<v Speaker 2>I reflected back on it, I was like, why was

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.319
<v Speaker 2>I so fascinated by this? It's like, well, because I

0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:42.720
<v Speaker 2>saw this dude that I he was my whole world

0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:45.600
<v Speaker 2>and that was his whole world. Was this music, even

0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:48.200
<v Speaker 2>though he wasn't like a musical guy himself. You know,

0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:52.000
<v Speaker 2>he didn't sing or anything, but he was just into it.

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're like in high school, you started playing the

0:45:54.880 --> 0:46:01.960
<v Speaker 1>guitar acoustic electric, You take lesson what songs you're learning,

0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:04.920
<v Speaker 1>playing out what does it look like?

0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it was acoustic guitar first. My mom had

0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 2>an acoustic guitar, which I actually reference on the new

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.120
<v Speaker 2>song Automatic. H I said, I never say my mom,

0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:17.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry. The new song, same old song on Automatic

0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:21.000
<v Speaker 2>has the reference to her guitar geting stolen because I say,

0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:22.880
<v Speaker 2>I'll never see my mom's guitar again. It was this

0:46:23.080 --> 0:46:27.040
<v Speaker 2>like Yamaha nip On Ghaki, like they made him in

0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Japan FG one, which is like a beater of a guitar,

0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:35.879
<v Speaker 2>but it's amazing guitar for if people want to buy,

0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:38.400
<v Speaker 2>they call it a poor man's Martin and it's just

0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:40.399
<v Speaker 2>this great guitar. It's just not good for touring because

0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:44.200
<v Speaker 2>it'll break down. But I had that. So its acoustic guitar.

0:46:45.320 --> 0:46:51.799
<v Speaker 2>And my first song was a Dave Matthews song. It

0:46:51.840 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 2>was like when I'm walking by the wall, it was

0:46:56.640 --> 0:46:59.680
<v Speaker 2>just I forget the name of it, but I remember

0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:01.799
<v Speaker 2>open for him and wanting to play it for him.

0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:05.239
<v Speaker 2>It's like but U And the next one, one of

0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.520
<v Speaker 2>the ones soon after that was Tangerine by led Zeppelin.

0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.040
<v Speaker 2>It was like a lot of I learned Dave Matthews

0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:11.560
<v Speaker 2>because I felt like that was like some of the

0:47:11.600 --> 0:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>hardest rhythm guitar to play while singing, and I kind

0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:16.480
<v Speaker 2>of knew that, so I was like, if I can

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:19.040
<v Speaker 2>learn this, then there's a lot of other songs I

0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:20.880
<v Speaker 2>can learn that are going to feel easier than this,

0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:24.200
<v Speaker 2>because he had a lot of stretches and really intricate stuff,

0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:28.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think it was free fallin'. I have that.

0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:31.600
<v Speaker 2>I took lessons for a few months and that's all

0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 2>you really need, and I have the early lesson book.

0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I saved it all these years. He taught me basic

0:47:38.800 --> 0:47:42.080
<v Speaker 2>scales and basic chords and some blue stuff, just stuff

0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to like I said, just give me a really basic

0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.640
<v Speaker 2>foundation and then I'll just hopefully take it from there.

0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:50.160
<v Speaker 2>And because I didn't like having to do it, but

0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.080
<v Speaker 2>it kept me going, you know, for the beating part

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:56.160
<v Speaker 2>of it. And then soon after I just found myself

0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:00.880
<v Speaker 2>like wanting to write songs because I love writing poetry.

0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:05.040
<v Speaker 2>So I've heard John Mellencamp describe, you know, his guitar

0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:09.640
<v Speaker 2>playing as a vehicle for the lyrics, and I always

0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:14.160
<v Speaker 2>felt like, I just really love the lyrics in the music,

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.839
<v Speaker 2>and the guitar and any instrument was just a way

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:20.120
<v Speaker 2>to put that on put that out there.

0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:23.920
<v Speaker 1>And at what point did you start playing with other people?

0:48:25.400 --> 0:48:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Pretty soon after I was probably like seventeen when I

0:48:33.320 --> 0:48:36.400
<v Speaker 2>tried joining a couple of different bands in town and

0:48:36.440 --> 0:48:39.319
<v Speaker 2>we played some talent shows, and I remember played first

0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:42.320
<v Speaker 2>time I ever played with a band. We played Hotel, California,

0:48:42.719 --> 0:48:45.160
<v Speaker 2>and I said, I have like footage of it. It's hilarious,

0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:48.960
<v Speaker 2>but I was so scared going into it. And then

0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:52.279
<v Speaker 2>unlike sports, where if I was scared going into it

0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:55.000
<v Speaker 2>and I took the court, it's like a lot of

0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:57.919
<v Speaker 2>bad things would happen with sports, a lot of things

0:48:57.920 --> 0:49:01.120
<v Speaker 2>that like didn't go the way you practiced it. With music,

0:49:01.120 --> 0:49:03.440
<v Speaker 2>for some reason, it went better, and it was like

0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:08.400
<v Speaker 2>felt locked in and that those nerves were no longer

0:49:08.440 --> 0:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>like hurting me. They were like creating this, this better,

0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:15.759
<v Speaker 2>better thing coming out of me, which was like a

0:49:15.800 --> 0:49:19.040
<v Speaker 2>totally unique feeling because I had really love sports growing

0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:20.759
<v Speaker 2>up and now would get out there and just like

0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:24.320
<v Speaker 2>try way too hard, and for some reason, music it

0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:25.000
<v Speaker 2>was just different.

0:49:26.840 --> 0:49:29.600
<v Speaker 1>So you join these bands or the bands playing gigs,

0:49:29.719 --> 0:49:31.279
<v Speaker 1>or you're just rehearsing.

0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Mostly rehearsing, mostly trying to do home recording, occasionally do

0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:40.800
<v Speaker 2>a talent show, occasionally play a coffee shop, but nothing

0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:44.480
<v Speaker 2>like nothing's nothing too crazy or impressive.

0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:57.000
<v Speaker 1>So you see Neil Young, you go to these shows,

0:49:57.000 --> 0:50:00.000
<v Speaker 1>you get inspired. At what point does the thought because

0:50:00.640 --> 0:50:02.080
<v Speaker 1>I want to do this for a living.

0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Pretty early on, I mean I was, I was ending

0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:07.319
<v Speaker 2>high school and I told my parents I didn't want

0:50:07.360 --> 0:50:09.919
<v Speaker 2>to go to college because they were very dead set

0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:12.560
<v Speaker 2>on it. They had saved up and my grandparents had

0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 2>saved up so that I could go to school. And

0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I was like, you're wasting your money, like I don't

0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:22.120
<v Speaker 2>want to do this, and they were like, well, we

0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:24.359
<v Speaker 2>really want you to do this, so if you do this,

0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:27.640
<v Speaker 2>like we're not going to financially support you, but we

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:32.200
<v Speaker 2>won't slam you for pursuing music once you finish college.

0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:35.560
<v Speaker 2>And I think they thought, if we give him four years,

0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.719
<v Speaker 2>he's moved on from every obsession he's ever had. Because

0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 2>I used to be kind of obsessed with things. He's

0:50:42.520 --> 0:50:45.239
<v Speaker 2>moved on from every one of those, so what's the

0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:47.160
<v Speaker 2>odds are He's just he's gonna get that out of

0:50:47.160 --> 0:50:48.919
<v Speaker 2>a system and then he's going to find something that's

0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:53.239
<v Speaker 2>more steady work, you know, more like a normal job.

0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:58.120
<v Speaker 2>So you don't go to college, no, So I tried

0:50:58.160 --> 0:51:00.719
<v Speaker 2>to convince them. My dad had a good pitch. He's like,

0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I want you to go away to school, and I

0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:07.359
<v Speaker 2>want you to like find yourself outside of this town,

0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:11.920
<v Speaker 2>outside of this family, and just get through it. Like,

0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:13.640
<v Speaker 2>just do it. It's not a punishment. You'll have a

0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:16.720
<v Speaker 2>good time. But like I always felt like I was behind,

0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:18.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I could be in the real world

0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.080
<v Speaker 2>trying to make it in this and you're asking me

0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to do that. So then when I got to school,

0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:25.600
<v Speaker 2>I went to the University of Richmond, where my sister

0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:30.839
<v Speaker 2>had gone, and uh, I started playing a lot there

0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:35.359
<v Speaker 2>and I remember, like I kind of cringe looking back,

0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:38.320
<v Speaker 2>but there was like a courtyard with a gazebo, and

0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I would sit in the gazebo and it like I

0:51:40.120 --> 0:51:45.200
<v Speaker 2>would sing at the buildings of dorms. Like, thinking back,

0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:47.160
<v Speaker 2>it was so obnoxious, but I think I just wanted

0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>to get this self consciousness out of my system. So

0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I would just play, like for an hour. I remember

0:51:53.080 --> 0:51:56.120
<v Speaker 2>people yelling out the window was like shut up, you know, like,

0:51:57.200 --> 0:51:59.560
<v Speaker 2>and I would just keep playing. And then I played

0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:02.040
<v Speaker 2>at the and played the mics, and I just started

0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:06.319
<v Speaker 2>playing a lot and formed. I formed a band. I

0:52:06.320 --> 0:52:08.640
<v Speaker 2>called it like Wesley, Keith and Co. And I had

0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:12.319
<v Speaker 2>different people coming and going, but most of that there

0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:15.799
<v Speaker 2>were I remember I had the biggest I would say,

0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:18.240
<v Speaker 2>the biggest event that happened to me, or the biggest

0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:21.120
<v Speaker 2>thing that happened to me that was really serendipitous, or

0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:23.640
<v Speaker 2>it was like the reason I was supposed to go

0:52:23.680 --> 0:52:27.400
<v Speaker 2>to school to that school was In college at All,

0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I met this guy, Charles Arthur, who's an incredible musician,

0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:35.640
<v Speaker 2>and he was an adjunct professor there where he gave

0:52:35.760 --> 0:52:38.719
<v Speaker 2>lessons and I took lessons with him. I decided, you know,

0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I know how to do rhythm guitar. I want to

0:52:40.120 --> 0:52:42.800
<v Speaker 2>learn how to solo. It'd be so cool if I

0:52:42.840 --> 0:52:46.080
<v Speaker 2>could solo. And I went to take lessons with him

0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:50.680
<v Speaker 2>and we sat down and we almost never picked up

0:52:50.680 --> 0:52:54.920
<v Speaker 2>an instrument. We just talked about music and the approached

0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:56.480
<v Speaker 2>to it. And I didn't really learn how to solo,

0:52:56.920 --> 0:53:00.000
<v Speaker 2>but I learned how to write songs with him. And

0:53:01.000 --> 0:53:03.640
<v Speaker 2>there is a minimalism to what he brought to the table.

0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:05.640
<v Speaker 2>He was like, how do you say the most with

0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:11.040
<v Speaker 2>the least? So you know that old that old adage

0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:12.480
<v Speaker 2>is like, if I had more time, I would have

0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:17.680
<v Speaker 2>written you a shorter letter. It's like Mark Twain apparently

0:53:17.760 --> 0:53:19.520
<v Speaker 2>said that. I don't know if you did, but it's

0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:23.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like every note should matter, and every word you

0:53:23.640 --> 0:53:26.759
<v Speaker 2>say and every and he taught me just how to

0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:28.920
<v Speaker 2>create tension and then relieve that tension. It was a

0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:36.080
<v Speaker 2>very incredible experience just talking music with this guy that

0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I still keep in touch with and we still talk often.

0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:41.279
<v Speaker 2>And whenever I get a new album, I said it

0:53:41.320 --> 0:53:43.759
<v Speaker 2>to him, and whenever I make a new album, I

0:53:43.760 --> 0:53:45.719
<v Speaker 2>mean and whenever I get a gold record, I send

0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:47.920
<v Speaker 2>him a copy with his name on it as like

0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:50.440
<v Speaker 2>a thank you for showing me how to write music.

0:53:51.280 --> 0:53:53.879
<v Speaker 2>And he lives at he lives still in Richmond, and

0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:56.000
<v Speaker 2>this is a guy who plays in a lot of bands.

0:53:56.000 --> 0:53:58.320
<v Speaker 2>But it was funny because he plays in some wedding

0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:01.359
<v Speaker 2>bands and he's like, you fucker. I got to play

0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:07.040
<v Speaker 2>your songs now at these ways. It's so good.

0:54:07.880 --> 0:54:10.640
<v Speaker 1>So how did you finish college? Yeah?

0:54:10.680 --> 0:54:14.399
<v Speaker 2>I finished college in five and then I came home

0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:17.680
<v Speaker 2>planning to just leave, you know, I was gonna come home,

0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:20.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of collect my things and then find a city

0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:23.279
<v Speaker 2>that I felt like I could work side jobs and

0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:27.080
<v Speaker 2>play music. Maybe New York, I didn't know. And then

0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:32.000
<v Speaker 2>soon after I met I had known jer but I

0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:35.440
<v Speaker 2>really kind of met him at that time where a

0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:37.799
<v Speaker 2>friend of mine was playing drums that I'd played with

0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:39.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot, and I was like, let's jam, I want

0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:42.200
<v Speaker 2>to play some gigs in the city. And then he's like, okay,

0:54:42.200 --> 0:54:43.680
<v Speaker 2>can jare come? And I was like, I don't. I

0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:45.359
<v Speaker 2>don't really want anybody else there. This is a pain

0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.880
<v Speaker 2>in the ass to try to coordinate everybody's schedule. And

0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:49.200
<v Speaker 2>then he's like, come on, come on, just let it

0:54:49.200 --> 0:54:51.239
<v Speaker 2>and he came in and we kind of hit it

0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:54.600
<v Speaker 2>off musically, and that that other guy justin ended up,

0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:57.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, having kids, getting married and all this stuff,

0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.200
<v Speaker 2>so he was he couldn't can continue to pursue music,

0:55:01.760 --> 0:55:03.920
<v Speaker 2>and Jared and I kind of just stuck with it.

0:55:04.080 --> 0:55:05.759
<v Speaker 2>And at the time my dad was sick. He had

0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:08.680
<v Speaker 2>like a three plus year about with cancer, and so

0:55:09.719 --> 0:55:12.120
<v Speaker 2>I was staying home for him in a way, and

0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:15.919
<v Speaker 2>I was and I was staying home to play music

0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.480
<v Speaker 2>with Jerr, but I really didn't want to be home,

0:55:19.040 --> 0:55:21.560
<v Speaker 2>and so there was there was a lot of pride

0:55:21.600 --> 0:55:25.120
<v Speaker 2>that was it hurt my pride be you know, past

0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:28.080
<v Speaker 2>a certain age. But I stayed and it was kind

0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:30.160
<v Speaker 2>of good looking back in terms of we were able

0:55:30.200 --> 0:55:35.239
<v Speaker 2>to do a lot of experimenting home recording and just

0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:38.160
<v Speaker 2>with no overhead, you know, no money being spent, just

0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:43.200
<v Speaker 2>recording in this anonymous way, driving into the city, constantly

0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:47.680
<v Speaker 2>gigging and just seeing that side of it before we

0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:51.000
<v Speaker 2>really got a break, and you know, any spotlight was

0:55:51.040 --> 0:55:53.160
<v Speaker 2>on ut, which is I think important for every band

0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.279
<v Speaker 2>because I think the nightmare scenario would be that you

0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:58.120
<v Speaker 2>come up with a style and a song that you

0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:01.759
<v Speaker 2>really hate, everybody loves it and they want more of

0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:03.400
<v Speaker 2>that from you, and you you don't even want to

0:56:03.440 --> 0:56:06.600
<v Speaker 2>play it. So I think by the time I remember,

0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:09.560
<v Speaker 2>something really shifted where I was in this Brooklyn apartment

0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and I was I ended up writing like a ton

0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:17.479
<v Speaker 2>of really good songs in this really dark period living

0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:21.600
<v Speaker 2>in Bushwick where, But I like O Hey and Flowers

0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and your Hair and all these songs. But I remember

0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:27.080
<v Speaker 2>writing Flowers and sending it to Jare, And the great

0:56:27.080 --> 0:56:28.600
<v Speaker 2>thing about Jerry is he hears it and he goes,

0:56:28.920 --> 0:56:31.799
<v Speaker 2>I love that car alarm in the back the background,

0:56:32.520 --> 0:56:35.560
<v Speaker 2>so he's trying to recreate that. And but I remember

0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:37.399
<v Speaker 2>playing that for my little brother, and my little brother

0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:40.080
<v Speaker 2>has always been supportive, but he's not effusive in praise,

0:56:40.200 --> 0:56:42.480
<v Speaker 2>like he's not going to tell you something's great if

0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:45.120
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't believe it. And it was really sweet because

0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:46.840
<v Speaker 2>that was the first song I'd shared with him a

0:56:46.840 --> 0:56:48.680
<v Speaker 2>ton of songs. That was the first time he said

0:56:49.080 --> 0:56:50.960
<v Speaker 2>it's a really good song. Like it was kind of

0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:54.200
<v Speaker 2>surprised him. And you know, whenever you do something like

0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:58.560
<v Speaker 2>that and you have someone in your life that doesn't bullshit,

0:56:58.719 --> 0:57:01.840
<v Speaker 2>it was really a moment to be like, yeah, I

0:57:01.880 --> 0:57:05.880
<v Speaker 2>thought it was good too. And from Flowers came Classic Girls,

0:57:05.920 --> 0:57:08.640
<v Speaker 2>came Stubborn, Love, came out Hey, came Dead Seat. They

0:57:08.680 --> 0:57:11.440
<v Speaker 2>were just pouring submarines. They were all just like pouring

0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:13.960
<v Speaker 2>out of us. But before that, it was like the

0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:16.160
<v Speaker 2>pipe was clogged, and all of a sudden, it was

0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:19.240
<v Speaker 2>just like boom, stuff started pouring out of us, and

0:57:19.280 --> 0:57:21.160
<v Speaker 2>none of it was that similar to the last song.

0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:24.560
<v Speaker 2>So it was a really strange, cool time of like

0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:26.800
<v Speaker 2>we crossed over some hump.

0:57:28.680 --> 0:57:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, what were you doing for work at that point?

0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:35.200
<v Speaker 2>At that point, I was working at a butcher shop,

0:57:36.480 --> 0:57:40.480
<v Speaker 2>a deli butcher shop. You know. We'd like sliced meats

0:57:40.520 --> 0:57:44.200
<v Speaker 2>and ground the beef and like triple ground it and

0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:47.000
<v Speaker 2>then like weigh it and work behind the counter doing

0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:49.120
<v Speaker 2>the lunch meets. And then I worked next door to

0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that place at a Starbucks, and then I worked at

0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:57.640
<v Speaker 2>a our local country club restaurant that I had gotten

0:57:57.640 --> 0:58:01.520
<v Speaker 2>fired from five years, probably a different part of it.

0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:04.640
<v Speaker 2>So I just found I found all these different jobs

0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I could do, uh, and I worked all those kind

0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:11.360
<v Speaker 2>of like at the same time, like in little spurts,

0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:11.560
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:14.960
<v Speaker 1>So when did you guys decide it was a duo

0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:17.040
<v Speaker 1>or the two of you were going to be together.

0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I think it just kind of happened naturally, like people

0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:23.160
<v Speaker 2>would come and then they'd peel off. You know. We

0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:27.200
<v Speaker 2>had our first guy, Justin, who was amazing, you know,

0:58:27.240 --> 0:58:30.680
<v Speaker 2>life just kind of happens. And then our next guy, Dave,

0:58:31.720 --> 0:58:34.600
<v Speaker 2>he became a school teacher, and I remember we were

0:58:34.840 --> 0:58:37.480
<v Speaker 2>we told him like he described it as like he

0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:40.920
<v Speaker 2>thought we were being delusional in retrospect because we were like,

0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:43.080
<v Speaker 2>are you sure you want to do this? You sure

0:58:43.160 --> 0:58:45.800
<v Speaker 2>want to leave? Like he's like, I'm getting this teaching joby,

0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:48.840
<v Speaker 2>what are you guys talking about? And and the next guy,

0:58:48.960 --> 0:58:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Joe bran Support, who's really accomplished musician in his own

0:58:51.840 --> 0:58:56.880
<v Speaker 2>right to this day still records and plays music and

0:58:56.920 --> 0:59:00.160
<v Speaker 2>he's insanely talented, he peeled off. So we had these

0:59:00.200 --> 0:59:02.360
<v Speaker 2>people like a third member come and go, third member

0:59:02.400 --> 0:59:04.560
<v Speaker 2>come and go, and it finally just was easier to

0:59:04.600 --> 0:59:07.960
<v Speaker 2>look at it more like, Okay, we're the we're the nucleus,

0:59:08.240 --> 0:59:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and anyone else who joins is is probably gonna leave,

0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:15.320
<v Speaker 2>so let's just like do it in the house. Let's

0:59:15.320 --> 0:59:17.880
<v Speaker 2>figure out ways to do this ourselves, or just view

0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:20.320
<v Speaker 2>it that way. So then we renamed the band Wesley

0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Jeremiah as like a an idea. It didn't really stick,

0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:26.640
<v Speaker 2>but we always liked the name. We always like a

0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:29.480
<v Speaker 2>band for some reason. That was our generation was like bands.

0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:35.440
<v Speaker 2>So we were we were, you know, romantic, We were

0:59:35.520 --> 0:59:37.400
<v Speaker 2>romantic about the word band. Like we thought it was

0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:39.480
<v Speaker 2>so cool to be in a band, which is why

0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:43.120
<v Speaker 2>we ended up naming it the Lumineers. But that was

0:59:43.160 --> 0:59:45.400
<v Speaker 2>even that was an accident. That was like a we

0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:48.760
<v Speaker 2>were at an open mic in Jersey City and there

0:59:48.840 --> 0:59:50.840
<v Speaker 2>was like an MC who was running the open mic

0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:53.240
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, up next, we have the Lumineers and

0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:55.520
<v Speaker 2>we got on stage were like, we're not the Lumineers,

0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:59.440
<v Speaker 2>but uh, we're Wesley Jeremiah. Nice to meet you guys,

0:59:59.440 --> 1:00:01.720
<v Speaker 2>and and then I was like I kind of like

1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:04.560
<v Speaker 2>that name. And then that was an instrumental band, and

1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:06.640
<v Speaker 2>then they broke up and we just kind of adopted

1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:09.360
<v Speaker 2>the name, and then we were certain it was going

1:00:09.440 --> 1:00:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to have to get taken away because it was like

1:00:11.720 --> 1:00:15.400
<v Speaker 2>a dental veneer company. And our lawyer was like, no,

1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:20.280
<v Speaker 2>it's unrelated. It's not the same you know Lane or something,

1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:25.280
<v Speaker 2>so it's yours. Like whoa, this is crazy. So it

1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:27.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuck. But it's something that the band name

1:00:27.280 --> 1:00:29.080
<v Speaker 2>is a hard thing to arrive at because they all

1:00:29.120 --> 1:00:29.720
<v Speaker 2>sound stupid.

1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:34.560
<v Speaker 1>When you first Sam, Okay, you come home, you're living

1:00:34.600 --> 1:00:38.440
<v Speaker 1>at home for three years, you're woodshitting with Jerry. At

1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:42.959
<v Speaker 1>what point are you guys playing out and saying we're

1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:43.800
<v Speaker 1>trying to make it.

1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Almost immediately, like that was my mentality because I was

1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:49.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty one and I was like, we're going to go

1:00:49.600 --> 1:00:52.120
<v Speaker 2>into the city. I remember played The Bitter End a

1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:55.000
<v Speaker 2>ton that was like a big one for us, and

1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:59.920
<v Speaker 2>then we got into Rockwood Music Hall, the living room,

1:01:00.120 --> 1:01:01.560
<v Speaker 2>this space called the bag It In. There was a

1:01:01.600 --> 1:01:03.520
<v Speaker 2>ton of them in the Lower East Side in New

1:01:03.560 --> 1:01:05.880
<v Speaker 2>York that we were playing, and it was just kind

1:01:05.880 --> 1:01:10.120
<v Speaker 2>of trying to cut our teeth and get experience in

1:01:10.240 --> 1:01:14.040
<v Speaker 2>doing all that and hoping someone would notice, and no

1:01:14.080 --> 1:01:18.120
<v Speaker 2>one really did. I mean, that city's wild. And when

1:01:18.120 --> 1:01:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I was I decided to move there. And Jay was

1:01:22.840 --> 1:01:27.480
<v Speaker 2>still finishing school at William Patterson and so I decided

1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:27.960
<v Speaker 2>to move there.

1:01:27.960 --> 1:01:28.360
<v Speaker 1>And like.

1:01:30.120 --> 1:01:33.080
<v Speaker 2>I was like, man, how do these kids who are

1:01:33.120 --> 1:01:35.800
<v Speaker 2>here in bands make it work? And I realized pretty

1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:38.560
<v Speaker 2>quickly that all the kids who are making it work

1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:41.960
<v Speaker 2>there were like trust fund kids. It wasn't like there

1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:45.600
<v Speaker 2>was no way to really live in that city unless

1:01:45.640 --> 1:01:48.360
<v Speaker 2>you were the son of a millionaire or the daughter

1:01:48.400 --> 1:01:50.720
<v Speaker 2>of a billionaire or something. It was like you had

1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:54.360
<v Speaker 2>to have some sort of backing and we didn't have.

1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have that. So I was like there for

1:01:57.000 --> 1:02:00.280
<v Speaker 2>a little while, taking it really seriously, but also doing

1:02:00.320 --> 1:02:03.680
<v Speaker 2>the math and realizing that all the time I used

1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:05.800
<v Speaker 2>to have when I was living at home to write

1:02:05.880 --> 1:02:09.600
<v Speaker 2>music with Ja and record that was all going away.

1:02:09.640 --> 1:02:12.000
<v Speaker 2>And I was joking that I got really good at

1:02:12.040 --> 1:02:14.240
<v Speaker 2>making hot and cold drinks, but I was not getting

1:02:14.240 --> 1:02:16.880
<v Speaker 2>better at music because I was a barista and I

1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:19.080
<v Speaker 2>was a bartender, and I was all these things that

1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't care about and I so I was like,

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I'd be better off in Buffalo, New York versus New York,

1:02:25.600 --> 1:02:28.680
<v Speaker 2>New York because I had no time for the thing

1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:30.920
<v Speaker 2>that I knew I had to put all this energy into.

1:02:32.200 --> 1:02:34.240
<v Speaker 2>So we moved to Denver just because a couple of

1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.880
<v Speaker 2>friends were like, this is what the rent costs. And

1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:39.439
<v Speaker 2>I remember being on a subway platform and Jar wasn't

1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:41.240
<v Speaker 2>gonna do it. He was like, all right, I'm gonna

1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna go start a studio with Joe Brandsport, and

1:02:43.880 --> 1:02:45.440
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I kind of just gave him my

1:02:45.480 --> 1:02:47.840
<v Speaker 2>sales pitch on why if we try to make it

1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:50.520
<v Speaker 2>work remotely it's not gonna work, then what do you

1:02:50.520 --> 1:02:52.240
<v Speaker 2>You can always go back and make that studio. But

1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:55.040
<v Speaker 2>you'll never have this this chance, you know, and he,

1:02:55.840 --> 1:02:58.600
<v Speaker 2>like God bless me, he took the he you know,

1:02:59.440 --> 1:03:01.840
<v Speaker 2>he bit the pitch and we went and we drove out,

1:03:01.880 --> 1:03:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and Denver was a much better place at that time

1:03:04.760 --> 1:03:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to try to be making it.

1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're playing in New York. How often are you playing?

1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:14.680
<v Speaker 1>And what is the experience. It's not like the band

1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:17.480
<v Speaker 1>has a brand name. You're playing to people who don't

1:03:17.480 --> 1:03:19.240
<v Speaker 1>care usually. What was it like?

1:03:19.680 --> 1:03:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we didn't name ourselves Lumineers until we moved to Denver, honestly,

1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and that was two thousand and nine, end of two

1:03:25.080 --> 1:03:27.560
<v Speaker 2>thousand and nine, So between two thousand and five and

1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:32.800
<v Speaker 2>nine we were just going under different band names. And

1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the thing was you always had your friends at those shows,

1:03:36.200 --> 1:03:40.600
<v Speaker 2>somebody hopefully, but you didn't really have anybody new because

1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the way a lot of those clubs work is that

1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:46.400
<v Speaker 2>they take any money from your fans, who are if

1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:49.120
<v Speaker 2>their fans are friends, mostly friends. They take their ten

1:03:49.160 --> 1:03:52.360
<v Speaker 2>dollars door fee or whatever, they sit them down. They

1:03:52.400 --> 1:03:54.160
<v Speaker 2>make them buy drinks at a comedy club, you know,

1:03:54.280 --> 1:03:56.920
<v Speaker 2>one drink or two drink minimum, and when your set's over,

1:03:57.000 --> 1:03:59.320
<v Speaker 2>they kicked them out. They're not even allowed to stay.

1:03:59.760 --> 1:04:03.720
<v Speaker 2>So it is a vicious circuit that you get exposed to.

1:04:05.240 --> 1:04:08.960
<v Speaker 2>But there was something exciting about it, and there were

1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:14.080
<v Speaker 2>glimmers of hope, but overall it was like pretty it was.

1:04:14.360 --> 1:04:17.280
<v Speaker 2>It was all about just like wanting to make it

1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:19.080
<v Speaker 2>any way. It's like if you were in a movie

1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:21.600
<v Speaker 2>but you were an extra. You know, it's like you're

1:04:21.640 --> 1:04:24.240
<v Speaker 2>not really no one gives a fuck whether they're or not,

1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:27.440
<v Speaker 2>but you feel like you're part of the movie. And

1:04:27.480 --> 1:04:29.840
<v Speaker 2>that really mattered to us at the time. And then

1:04:29.840 --> 1:04:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I remember my buddy who was my roommate, Matt Maddy Collins.

1:04:32.880 --> 1:04:34.840
<v Speaker 2>He said to me it was like the Goodwill hunting

1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:37.600
<v Speaker 2>scene where he's like kind of like, I love you, man,

1:04:37.640 --> 1:04:39.360
<v Speaker 2>but if you're still hearing five years, I'm going to

1:04:39.440 --> 1:04:41.800
<v Speaker 2>fucking kill you. Like he said, you have the same

1:04:42.680 --> 1:04:45.400
<v Speaker 2>five or ten people coming to every show and that's fine, man,

1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:49.800
<v Speaker 2>but like nothing's changing here, Like you need something needs

1:04:49.880 --> 1:04:53.080
<v Speaker 2>to change, you know, And he's like, I believe in you,

1:04:53.160 --> 1:04:56.120
<v Speaker 2>but you gotta like do something. Something's gotta give, and

1:04:56.600 --> 1:05:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that's something given. Was definitely moving somewhere else. So we

1:05:00.600 --> 1:05:04.000
<v Speaker 2>we took the plunge based on just what became what

1:05:04.120 --> 1:05:06.200
<v Speaker 2>felt like a Merry go Round where you just or

1:05:06.320 --> 1:05:10.400
<v Speaker 2>twilight Zone or what's Groundhog's Day where you're every gig

1:05:10.440 --> 1:05:12.360
<v Speaker 2>feels like it starts to blend in with the last,

1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:17.480
<v Speaker 2>because they're all just nothing's changing or growing, it's just stagnating.

1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:22.280
<v Speaker 1>And were there any glimmers of hope? Were there people

1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:25.240
<v Speaker 1>who interested it when it faded away? Anything that happened

1:05:25.240 --> 1:05:27.160
<v Speaker 1>in those years.

1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:29.960
<v Speaker 2>I think we had it, our glimmers of hope. We're

1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:33.560
<v Speaker 2>not so much external at those gigs. It was a

1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:37.880
<v Speaker 2>lot more of it had to do with breaking through

1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:43.560
<v Speaker 2>on a song, you know, having a moment where you

1:05:43.600 --> 1:05:45.560
<v Speaker 2>feel like the song is dead in the water, and

1:05:45.600 --> 1:05:48.880
<v Speaker 2>then all of a sudden you part emerges and you

1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:52.200
<v Speaker 2>feel like you climbed up some mountain together. I think

1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:56.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a reason. You know, this year marks twenty years

1:05:56.640 --> 1:05:59.439
<v Speaker 2>of me and Jared making music together, and the only

1:05:59.480 --> 1:06:03.080
<v Speaker 2>thing that has really kept us here. You know, it

1:06:03.120 --> 1:06:06.160
<v Speaker 2>isn't like the rider we get backstage or something. It's

1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:09.320
<v Speaker 2>it's writing music. It's like the core of what we

1:06:09.440 --> 1:06:12.480
<v Speaker 2>love to do, we get to do without anybody bothering us.

1:06:12.920 --> 1:06:16.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think that is the ultimate ultimate high for us,

1:06:16.040 --> 1:06:19.640
<v Speaker 2>So those were like what kept us going. I think

1:06:19.760 --> 1:06:22.880
<v Speaker 2>was like the joys of like the simple act of

1:06:23.680 --> 1:06:24.640
<v Speaker 2>getting to write music.

1:06:25.960 --> 1:06:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about thinking about giving up?

1:06:30.440 --> 1:06:32.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, I didn't really have much

1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:35.240
<v Speaker 2>of a plan outside of music. I was like, my

1:06:35.360 --> 1:06:38.640
<v Speaker 2>dad's really cool. Maybe I'll try to be a psychologist.

1:06:38.720 --> 1:06:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I did undergrad as a psych major. But I think overall,

1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:47.959
<v Speaker 2>I just kind of felt like I want to see

1:06:48.000 --> 1:06:52.280
<v Speaker 2>this through. At the same time, as you're getting older,

1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you're like, well, the world hasn't told me that this

1:06:55.440 --> 1:06:58.040
<v Speaker 2>is working, So who's crazy here?

1:06:58.560 --> 1:06:58.840
<v Speaker 1>You know that?

1:06:59.120 --> 1:07:01.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that was the dark hour was like I

1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:05.920
<v Speaker 2>remember I went home one night from working this waiter

1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:09.360
<v Speaker 2>job or bartending job in my hometown. My mom had

1:07:09.400 --> 1:07:12.160
<v Speaker 2>her college roommates over, like the once a year they

1:07:12.200 --> 1:07:16.480
<v Speaker 2>get together and have this dinner, and they had done

1:07:16.520 --> 1:07:19.600
<v Speaker 2>that this tradition, and so they see me and they're like, hey, Wes,

1:07:19.680 --> 1:07:22.120
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like twenty six at the time, I'm not

1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:25.960
<v Speaker 2>feeling great about anything, and I'm not happy to see

1:07:25.960 --> 1:07:28.520
<v Speaker 2>them because you know, you're gonna get like a lot

1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:32.720
<v Speaker 2>of questions. And I had worked a long shift and everything,

1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:36.200
<v Speaker 2>and I kind of just felt embarrassed, you know, and

1:07:36.240 --> 1:07:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the lady was like, I, I just we just have

1:07:39.040 --> 1:07:41.080
<v Speaker 2>the best idea, you know, all these kids like want

1:07:41.080 --> 1:07:44.120
<v Speaker 2>to learn math, you should write math songs. And I

1:07:44.200 --> 1:07:46.440
<v Speaker 2>just went up and like cried, Like I went to

1:07:46.480 --> 1:07:48.720
<v Speaker 2>my room and I just cried. I was like, I'm

1:07:48.760 --> 1:07:51.840
<v Speaker 2>such a fucking loser, like and I will not do that.

1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:54.720
<v Speaker 2>Like there's a part of me that was like I

1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:57.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't make music to make money. I just like I

1:07:57.280 --> 1:08:00.280
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't do it like that. That would be like that

1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:01.040
<v Speaker 2>would be.

1:08:02.400 --> 1:08:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Counter.

1:08:03.520 --> 1:08:05.280
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't why I was doing it, And so I

1:08:05.280 --> 1:08:08.240
<v Speaker 2>felt really misunderstood that someone would think I would want

1:08:08.240 --> 1:08:11.080
<v Speaker 2>to do that, and that you just feel like people

1:08:11.160 --> 1:08:13.480
<v Speaker 2>don't really get why you're doing it. And I come

1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:15.880
<v Speaker 2>home from my mom me watching like American Idol or something,

1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:19.559
<v Speaker 2>and I'd be like, ugh, it's like there's this element

1:08:19.600 --> 1:08:22.439
<v Speaker 2>of that show that all that show is is Broadway singers.

1:08:22.479 --> 1:08:25.280
<v Speaker 2>That's all it is. It's not like artists. These I'm

1:08:25.280 --> 1:08:27.960
<v Speaker 2>sure they they're artists and how they sing, but this

1:08:28.040 --> 1:08:31.519
<v Speaker 2>isn't like what I'm into. This isn't the type of

1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:34.479
<v Speaker 2>artist I want to be. This is operatic, technical singing.

1:08:34.840 --> 1:08:37.840
<v Speaker 2>I want someone who's like baring their soul and in

1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:40.960
<v Speaker 2>a way a shitty singer that is risking it all

1:08:41.000 --> 1:08:44.640
<v Speaker 2>by putting it out there. And so even that was

1:08:44.680 --> 1:08:47.519
<v Speaker 2>weird to come home and you're like, maybe I'm the fool,

1:08:47.800 --> 1:08:50.000
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. And then like years later,

1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:54.320
<v Speaker 2>American Idol was licensing our songs so that contestants could

1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:56.320
<v Speaker 2>sing it, and I'm like, this is so fucking weird,

1:08:57.040 --> 1:08:59.760
<v Speaker 2>like our song Angela or something, and You're like, I

1:08:59.760 --> 1:09:04.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know how to square this, but but life is

1:09:04.720 --> 1:09:07.360
<v Speaker 2>weird that I think that. I think I just kept

1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:10.760
<v Speaker 2>my head oblivious, like and I have deliberately kept my

1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:13.280
<v Speaker 2>head down and like stayed oblivious to a lot of

1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:16.679
<v Speaker 2>it and tried to I kept trying to tell myself

1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:20.800
<v Speaker 2>that this is like just part of the like the

1:09:20.800 --> 1:09:22.760
<v Speaker 2>hero's journey or something. You're like, you're gonna do it.

1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:24.800
<v Speaker 2>This is just make your story even better, you know,

1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:27.960
<v Speaker 2>like just trying to convince in any way that you're

1:09:28.000 --> 1:09:28.799
<v Speaker 2>not being an idiot.

1:09:29.840 --> 1:09:32.160
<v Speaker 1>In the back of your mind was wherever like if

1:09:32.160 --> 1:09:34.920
<v Speaker 1>this doesn't happen in five years, I'm gonna have to

1:09:34.960 --> 1:09:35.759
<v Speaker 1>do something different.

1:09:36.600 --> 1:09:40.120
<v Speaker 2>I think what I thought was if this doesn't happen.

1:09:40.280 --> 1:09:43.400
<v Speaker 2>And I have kids and I'm going to some open

1:09:43.439 --> 1:09:46.120
<v Speaker 2>mic and my kid has barely enough to eat, and

1:09:46.160 --> 1:09:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, sorry, I got to go to the open mic.

1:09:47.800 --> 1:09:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I think I would hang it up. I just don't think.

1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:52.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't like I don't think that's in me. I

1:09:52.640 --> 1:09:55.080
<v Speaker 2>think I would want to provide. I'd be like, this

1:09:55.160 --> 1:09:56.920
<v Speaker 2>is wrong. But if it's just me or just me

1:09:56.960 --> 1:10:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and a girlfriend, you know, can go on for a

1:10:00.840 --> 1:10:01.320
<v Speaker 2>long time.

1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:13.680
<v Speaker 1>So what degree was this pursuit for stalling a serious relationship?

1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Like did it hurt having a serious relationship? Is that

1:10:20.120 --> 1:10:20.519
<v Speaker 2>what you mean?

1:10:20.640 --> 1:10:23.439
<v Speaker 1>Or yeah? Sort of like were you so listen, there

1:10:23.439 --> 1:10:26.760
<v Speaker 1>are a lot of people. Everybody's different, okay, but especially

1:10:26.920 --> 1:10:30.040
<v Speaker 1>in the millennial generation of which you were a member,

1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:33.560
<v Speaker 1>they know the score. They know there's winners and losers.

1:10:33.640 --> 1:10:36.160
<v Speaker 1>You gotta basically get a job base a certain amount

1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:38.760
<v Speaker 1>of money, you know, otherwise you're going to be on

1:10:38.800 --> 1:10:42.200
<v Speaker 1>the wrong end of it. So consciously, did you say

1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:45.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to wait to do all that until I

1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:49.480
<v Speaker 1>have you know, I've broken through, or did you conversely

1:10:49.560 --> 1:10:53.320
<v Speaker 1>find or maybe simultaneously find that women said this isn't

1:10:53.320 --> 1:10:54.280
<v Speaker 1>what I'm looking for?

1:10:55.320 --> 1:10:57.040
<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't get a lot. I didn't get a ton.

1:10:57.320 --> 1:10:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I felt like college, you were the coolest dude ever

1:11:00.400 --> 1:11:02.320
<v Speaker 2>if you could play guitar and sing and you were

1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:05.479
<v Speaker 2>also in school. And the minute I left college, it

1:11:05.600 --> 1:11:10.160
<v Speaker 2>was like, what just happened? You have no you have

1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:13.760
<v Speaker 2>you have no, Like all the game is lost, it

1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:18.599
<v Speaker 2>felt like, and all the attractiveness that the same thing

1:11:18.600 --> 1:11:21.720
<v Speaker 2>they liked you for they are repulsed by. They think

1:11:21.760 --> 1:11:25.240
<v Speaker 2>you're delusional. I remember seeing a teacher that I kind

1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:28.040
<v Speaker 2>of had a crush on, you know, like, come to

1:11:28.120 --> 1:11:31.200
<v Speaker 2>the country club where I was working. I was cleaning

1:11:31.240 --> 1:11:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the salad bar at the end of the night, and

1:11:33.400 --> 1:11:36.080
<v Speaker 2>she was like, are you all right? It's everything alright.

1:11:36.240 --> 1:11:39.200
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh my god, like because I was like,

1:11:39.200 --> 1:11:42.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm a musician. I'm actually you saw her. It's like

1:11:42.520 --> 1:11:44.160
<v Speaker 2>if she went to an asylum and was talking to

1:11:44.200 --> 1:11:48.800
<v Speaker 2>a crazy person, and I'm like, oh no, she thinks

1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that I'm crazy, you know, so I think there there

1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:54.960
<v Speaker 2>was like when I moved to Denver, I had I

1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:58.760
<v Speaker 2>felt like there was more of a culture around being

1:11:58.760 --> 1:12:02.559
<v Speaker 2>an artist. But in New York, at least the experience

1:12:02.600 --> 1:12:06.519
<v Speaker 2>that I had, it was pretty hard to link up

1:12:06.520 --> 1:12:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and meet people that way, because yeah, it's a pretty competitive,

1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:14.599
<v Speaker 2>successful city and if you're just like this on this

1:12:14.720 --> 1:12:17.680
<v Speaker 2>part of the totem pole, it's not very interactive. So

1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:20.120
<v Speaker 2>when I moved to Denver, I met a lot more

1:12:20.160 --> 1:12:22.599
<v Speaker 2>like gypsy like people, some carnies you know that like

1:12:22.760 --> 1:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>got what we were trying to do. And then it

1:12:25.160 --> 1:12:27.840
<v Speaker 2>was a little easier to date and to meet people.

1:12:28.280 --> 1:12:30.160
<v Speaker 2>So I met I met my wife. She threw like

1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:34.240
<v Speaker 2>a house show. She threw a house show for like

1:12:34.240 --> 1:12:41.519
<v Speaker 2>her best friend where we show up, and my wife

1:12:41.560 --> 1:12:44.000
<v Speaker 2>was like dating a woman at the time. So I'm thinking,

1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:48.679
<v Speaker 2>like I'm a Jersey boy, and I'm just categorizing, like, oh,

1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Denver has house shows, and that's a lesbian, and that's

1:12:51.400 --> 1:12:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Harry Armpit and that's a you know, like you just

1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I just moved there, and so it turned out she

1:12:58.400 --> 1:13:00.280
<v Speaker 2>was not a lesbian. She would just have I've been

1:13:00.320 --> 1:13:02.639
<v Speaker 2>dating a woman at that time and had dated men before.

1:13:02.920 --> 1:13:04.640
<v Speaker 2>But for about a year I was just talking to

1:13:04.680 --> 1:13:07.160
<v Speaker 2>her like a friend, and that was like a really

1:13:07.240 --> 1:13:09.960
<v Speaker 2>nice way to meet somebody because I wasn't putting on

1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:13.759
<v Speaker 2>any fronts. I was just like being myself and she

1:13:13.760 --> 1:13:16.760
<v Speaker 2>she happened to like that, and it's not how you

1:13:16.840 --> 1:13:18.200
<v Speaker 2>draw it up, but it was a beautiful way to

1:13:18.200 --> 1:13:22.680
<v Speaker 2>meet somebody in the sense of like there was no fronting. Uh,

1:13:22.800 --> 1:13:24.920
<v Speaker 2>it was just like candid talk. You know.

1:13:26.080 --> 1:13:28.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't want to be a tabloid guy here.

1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:31.240
<v Speaker 1>But you dropped in there that you had dated men.

1:13:31.760 --> 1:13:33.479
<v Speaker 1>You can just give a little bit about what was

1:13:33.520 --> 1:13:34.120
<v Speaker 1>going on there.

1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:37.000
<v Speaker 2>No, I hadn't dated men. She had dated men.

1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:40.080
<v Speaker 1>Oh why did I stopped? I'm glad I stopped.

1:13:40.080 --> 1:13:43.000
<v Speaker 2>I heard it wrong, Okay, So like I didn't know

1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:46.680
<v Speaker 2>that my wife and also dated men, right, and I

1:13:46.680 --> 1:13:49.120
<v Speaker 2>figured she was just only going for women.

1:13:50.160 --> 1:13:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you're in Denver. Two things. Could it have

1:13:56.479 --> 1:14:00.880
<v Speaker 1>been anywhere? Or was it that you just new people

1:14:00.920 --> 1:14:03.400
<v Speaker 1>in Denver and it made it easier? And once you

1:14:03.479 --> 1:14:06.400
<v Speaker 1>got to Denver, what was different? And how did you

1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.200
<v Speaker 1>start to climb the ladder?

1:14:09.200 --> 1:14:10.640
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it could have in a way, it

1:14:10.640 --> 1:14:12.720
<v Speaker 2>could have been anywhere, but the people who I met

1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:16.479
<v Speaker 2>there helped helped out, especially someone like Stealth, who's our

1:14:16.520 --> 1:14:22.080
<v Speaker 2>piano player now, in the sense that he shared all

1:14:22.120 --> 1:14:25.160
<v Speaker 2>of the contacts he had and possibly have in music.

1:14:25.200 --> 1:14:27.320
<v Speaker 2>He's like, here's where you can go in the West Coast.

1:14:27.520 --> 1:14:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise you go out to the West Coast, you don't

1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:31.880
<v Speaker 2>know where to play, you don't have anybody interested in

1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:34.519
<v Speaker 2>coming to your show. So he just gave me a

1:14:34.600 --> 1:14:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Rolodex because he had been touring with his band on

1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a very grassroots level and a DIY house show kind

1:14:40.880 --> 1:14:43.000
<v Speaker 2>of level. So he's the first guy to take us

1:14:43.000 --> 1:14:45.799
<v Speaker 2>out busting went to Boulder and busting on the streets

1:14:45.800 --> 1:14:51.240
<v Speaker 2>for money, and then gave me this just long list

1:14:51.280 --> 1:14:54.240
<v Speaker 2>of people to call an email. And that's how we

1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:57.800
<v Speaker 2>did our first touring. And I feel like Denver was

1:14:57.880 --> 1:15:01.439
<v Speaker 2>helpful because if you're on a coast, you stick to

1:15:01.479 --> 1:15:04.720
<v Speaker 2>that coast unless you're just really getting after it. But

1:15:04.800 --> 1:15:06.880
<v Speaker 2>when you're in Denver, you got to go left or right.

1:15:07.400 --> 1:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>You can't really stay there. There's only a couple of

1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:13.519
<v Speaker 2>cities you can really play. So it was like it

1:15:13.560 --> 1:15:17.160
<v Speaker 2>was on I mean the first tour we did that

1:15:17.280 --> 1:15:19.960
<v Speaker 2>was a real deal tour that was DIY. We went

1:15:20.880 --> 1:15:24.519
<v Speaker 2>took a mini van and a little U haul trailer,

1:15:24.600 --> 1:15:27.200
<v Speaker 2>the smallest one they had, and we drove it all

1:15:27.200 --> 1:15:29.040
<v Speaker 2>the way out to the West coast, all the way

1:15:29.080 --> 1:15:33.240
<v Speaker 2>up the coast through the country down the East coast

1:15:33.640 --> 1:15:37.120
<v Speaker 2>back in thirty days and just played a ton of shows,

1:15:37.560 --> 1:15:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and it was like that was a baptism by fire

1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:43.880
<v Speaker 2>in the most beautiful way. Had I gone somewhere else,

1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:46.439
<v Speaker 2>let's say I went to Buffalo, New York, I think

1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:50.519
<v Speaker 2>I just stay on the East Coast, and then that's

1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:53.920
<v Speaker 2>less of like a baptism, that's less of a challenge,

1:15:53.920 --> 1:15:55.360
<v Speaker 2>you know. So I think being in the middle of

1:15:55.400 --> 1:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>the country had its pressures of like, you're gonna have

1:15:58.280 --> 1:16:00.800
<v Speaker 2>to go and one's not that much easier than the others,

1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:02.760
<v Speaker 2>so you got to go all over. It made us

1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:03.879
<v Speaker 2>think about it differently.

1:16:05.720 --> 1:16:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how do you you got in a van and

1:16:09.120 --> 1:16:10.799
<v Speaker 1>you started playing, how'd you get the gigs?

1:16:11.120 --> 1:16:13.559
<v Speaker 2>I called, called an emailed. I was the tour manager,

1:16:13.600 --> 1:16:16.479
<v Speaker 2>so I was calling and emailing all these people that

1:16:16.560 --> 1:16:19.479
<v Speaker 2>Stealth had given me and just like googling places, and

1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:23.439
<v Speaker 2>we found that the best impact and the best way

1:16:23.479 --> 1:16:25.720
<v Speaker 2>to really come back to that city and see real

1:16:25.760 --> 1:16:28.759
<v Speaker 2>people come out wasn't playing clubs. It was playing people's

1:16:28.760 --> 1:16:31.760
<v Speaker 2>living rooms. So you like, on our first album, you

1:16:31.840 --> 1:16:34.879
<v Speaker 2>hear a lot of the influence of kind of bus

1:16:34.920 --> 1:16:38.479
<v Speaker 2>styles singing and performing. When you're busking, you have to project,

1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and you have to sing really loudly and almost scream.

1:16:41.120 --> 1:16:44.040
<v Speaker 2>So a lot of that album is just it's like

1:16:44.520 --> 1:16:49.320
<v Speaker 2>informed by those gigs. You know, you kind of like

1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:52.519
<v Speaker 2>glean what's going to work in that style room, and

1:16:52.560 --> 1:16:56.000
<v Speaker 2>then that ends up on your record by accident. But

1:16:56.080 --> 1:16:59.040
<v Speaker 2>I would say you kind of just take a leap

1:16:59.080 --> 1:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>of faith and you do that first few gigs and

1:17:01.640 --> 1:17:04.840
<v Speaker 2>hopefully someone has steered you correctly, like this is a

1:17:04.840 --> 1:17:07.960
<v Speaker 2>good place to go. And so we just did a

1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:11.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of that. We called people that we knew would

1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:14.759
<v Speaker 2>have friends come out, even if they didn't know the band,

1:17:15.160 --> 1:17:17.479
<v Speaker 2>so'd be like, hey, can we just we just it's

1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:18.960
<v Speaker 2>almost like we're not going to pay you, but we'd

1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:20.760
<v Speaker 2>almost pay you to do this, Like can you just

1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:23.479
<v Speaker 2>get some people here? All we want is bodies in

1:17:23.479 --> 1:17:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the room. We want to just play to people. And

1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:29.120
<v Speaker 2>there's so much of our previous musical life have been

1:17:29.160 --> 1:17:32.960
<v Speaker 2>spent being so proud of posting on the website all

1:17:33.000 --> 1:17:35.080
<v Speaker 2>the gigs we had scheduled. And then you get to

1:17:35.120 --> 1:17:38.880
<v Speaker 2>that gig in Philadelphia or Virginia or wherever, and it

1:17:39.080 --> 1:17:42.400
<v Speaker 2>looked nice online and on the flyer and no one's there.

1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:47.559
<v Speaker 2>And then when you go to a house show, everyone

1:17:47.600 --> 1:17:49.599
<v Speaker 2>has a different feeling about it and they're kind of

1:17:49.600 --> 1:17:54.599
<v Speaker 2>forced to commit there, they're really engaged in listening, and

1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:56.479
<v Speaker 2>the next time you come to town, you almost it's

1:17:56.479 --> 1:18:00.559
<v Speaker 2>like double the people. There's some deep, deep intimacy impact

1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:03.040
<v Speaker 2>to that that I never knew until I did it.

1:18:03.400 --> 1:18:06.439
<v Speaker 2>And then it became like a way to to really

1:18:06.439 --> 1:18:09.559
<v Speaker 2>effectively tour and like make it somehow work while you're

1:18:09.600 --> 1:18:11.439
<v Speaker 2>being a busboy on the side.

1:18:13.400 --> 1:18:16.559
<v Speaker 1>So when you talk about touring the West Coast, you

1:18:16.640 --> 1:18:18.559
<v Speaker 1>were mostly playing living rooms.

1:18:18.960 --> 1:18:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, mostly people's houses, house shows.

1:18:22.360 --> 1:18:24.840
<v Speaker 1>And was this a self sustaining tour or was it

1:18:24.920 --> 1:18:25.639
<v Speaker 1>in the red.

1:18:26.439 --> 1:18:30.080
<v Speaker 2>It was like break even territory, like you maybe maybe

1:18:30.160 --> 1:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>lost a little bit, maybe you made a little bit,

1:18:31.760 --> 1:18:37.040
<v Speaker 2>but nothing nothing significant, nothing gained or lost, but the experience,

1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:39.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I think the belief that if you

1:18:39.200 --> 1:18:45.960
<v Speaker 2>could do that enough, maybe somebody would invite someone with

1:18:46.800 --> 1:18:50.000
<v Speaker 2>some connection to somebody and it would get on somebody's radar,

1:18:51.200 --> 1:18:54.479
<v Speaker 2>which weirdly, like I remember, our publicist Jim sent a

1:18:54.560 --> 1:18:58.320
<v Speaker 2>video of our house show, of a house show of

1:18:58.400 --> 1:19:01.400
<v Speaker 2>ho Hey to the booker ofl and then a year

1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:05.160
<v Speaker 2>later we were on the show. So it's like those

1:19:05.200 --> 1:19:08.240
<v Speaker 2>things have a way of they keep playing a big guard.

1:19:08.320 --> 1:19:09.960
<v Speaker 2>You're playing a lot of seeds, and you just never

1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:12.439
<v Speaker 2>know where thing's gonna come from.

1:19:12.720 --> 1:19:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when you went on this tour, was it like, well,

1:19:16.760 --> 1:19:19.040
<v Speaker 1>we never did this before, let's try it, or was

1:19:19.080 --> 1:19:22.200
<v Speaker 1>there already momentum.

1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>We had never done it, and let's try it. And

1:19:23.760 --> 1:19:25.559
<v Speaker 2>then we did it and enjoyed it, so we did

1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:27.920
<v Speaker 2>another one. I think we did probably three.

1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:32.320
<v Speaker 1>So at what point did you feel it's starting to

1:19:32.360 --> 1:19:33.840
<v Speaker 1>turn I think this might work.

1:19:34.640 --> 1:19:39.240
<v Speaker 2>I think I went home for Christmas and we were

1:19:39.240 --> 1:19:41.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna record and we were gonna have that residency at

1:19:41.439 --> 1:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>the living room, and my brother said, did you know

1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:47.160
<v Speaker 2>that ho hey house video show? The House Show? Uh?

1:19:47.240 --> 1:19:50.080
<v Speaker 2>They put on YouTube. That thing has like five thousand

1:19:50.160 --> 1:19:54.040
<v Speaker 2>hits And I was like, no way, no fucking way.

1:19:54.760 --> 1:19:57.080
<v Speaker 2>And we looked and it had like six and I

1:19:57.120 --> 1:20:01.000
<v Speaker 2>was like what. And that was it was around that time,

1:20:01.080 --> 1:20:03.920
<v Speaker 2>like the four or five six thousand hit mark where

1:20:03.960 --> 1:20:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I was like, something's happening here. And then we played

1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:11.160
<v Speaker 2>five shows at the living room and then we used

1:20:11.160 --> 1:20:13.800
<v Speaker 2>that as kind of like a satellite here in New

1:20:13.880 --> 1:20:17.320
<v Speaker 2>York every Tuesday. Where else can we go in between?

1:20:17.360 --> 1:20:20.000
<v Speaker 2>So we went to Virginia, went to I think Pittsburgh,

1:20:20.080 --> 1:20:23.880
<v Speaker 2>maybe we went to DC, we went up to Maine.

1:20:24.520 --> 1:20:27.920
<v Speaker 2>We went all these different places in between those five gigs,

1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:33.559
<v Speaker 2>and by the fifth show, the living room, that show

1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:36.760
<v Speaker 2>sold out. So it was like, over the course of

1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:41.200
<v Speaker 2>a month we even saw a half empty room to

1:20:41.280 --> 1:20:43.479
<v Speaker 2>a sold out room. It was really cool.

1:20:43.560 --> 1:20:44.080
<v Speaker 1>It was like.

1:20:46.720 --> 1:20:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Really innocent, you know, you're just like the room probably

1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:52.160
<v Speaker 2>helped forty forty five people, but for us, that was

1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:55.000
<v Speaker 2>like playing Madison Square Garden. It was like, I cannot

1:20:55.040 --> 1:20:57.719
<v Speaker 2>believe these people are here, and it was people. Suddenly

1:20:57.760 --> 1:21:00.240
<v Speaker 2>there's people there we didn't know, you know normally, like

1:21:00.960 --> 1:21:03.200
<v Speaker 2>how did you find out about It's like, oh, it

1:21:03.200 --> 1:21:04.920
<v Speaker 2>would always be a friend of a friend, and then

1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:07.160
<v Speaker 2>that's how you kind of know something is breaking a

1:21:07.160 --> 1:21:07.599
<v Speaker 2>little bit.

1:21:09.160 --> 1:21:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So that's where they make the connection with the manager.

1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:19.120
<v Speaker 1>How long after that is your song in the CW

1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:24.400
<v Speaker 1>TV show And how long after that till ho Hey

1:21:24.479 --> 1:21:25.479
<v Speaker 1>gets on the radio?

1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:30.880
<v Speaker 2>I think that happened probably November October November something like

1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:34.680
<v Speaker 2>at the end of that year. That song was recorded

1:21:35.040 --> 1:21:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and then made it onto that show, and then we

1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:45.040
<v Speaker 2>were signing management because we had recorded that at some

1:21:45.120 --> 1:21:48.960
<v Speaker 2>point that year. We had recorded our demos that year.

1:21:49.960 --> 1:21:53.320
<v Speaker 2>So the following year we're going through the label process

1:21:53.880 --> 1:21:57.519
<v Speaker 2>and it gets released I want to say it in

1:21:57.560 --> 1:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>April of twenty twelve. And at that point when that

1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:07.560
<v Speaker 2>album came out, oh hey, it was already on the

1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:10.559
<v Speaker 2>radio a couple months before that, and it had kind

1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:15.280
<v Speaker 2>of like shot up into different formats and it was

1:22:15.320 --> 1:22:16.360
<v Speaker 2>all just news to us.

1:22:16.560 --> 1:22:18.439
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about the first time you heard it on

1:22:18.479 --> 1:22:20.160
<v Speaker 1>the radio.

1:22:20.320 --> 1:22:23.519
<v Speaker 2>I was living with my girlfriend who's now my wife.

1:22:23.600 --> 1:22:27.080
<v Speaker 2>We were that's a different whole other story. We were

1:22:27.080 --> 1:22:29.920
<v Speaker 2>living in the basement of the nanny. She was a

1:22:30.000 --> 1:22:31.720
<v Speaker 2>nanny for this family and they let me live with

1:22:31.760 --> 1:22:34.679
<v Speaker 2>her in their basement. They were like the nicest people,

1:22:34.760 --> 1:22:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the Swedish family. So I was like living with them

1:22:38.960 --> 1:22:42.240
<v Speaker 2>and sort of helping to nanny like babysit a little bit,

1:22:42.280 --> 1:22:44.320
<v Speaker 2>and they like would hire me to give their kids

1:22:44.400 --> 1:22:46.360
<v Speaker 2>music lessons just to be nice to me, because I

1:22:46.400 --> 1:22:51.559
<v Speaker 2>think they felt bad. And then I was making some

1:22:51.600 --> 1:22:56.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of Swedish like we were using dough and making

1:22:56.120 --> 1:23:00.880
<v Speaker 2>these Swedish pancakes or something and my hands were like

1:23:00.920 --> 1:23:03.640
<v Speaker 2>covered in flour and we were in there with their

1:23:03.720 --> 1:23:06.760
<v Speaker 2>kids and it comes on on the radio station and

1:23:06.800 --> 1:23:08.240
<v Speaker 2>it was the first time I heard it. It was like

1:23:08.640 --> 1:23:10.879
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to like get my phone out and text somebody.

1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:14.080
<v Speaker 2>And my hands were covered in flour from the cooking

1:23:14.120 --> 1:23:18.160
<v Speaker 2>we were doing. And we were about to leave for

1:23:18.160 --> 1:23:22.519
<v Speaker 2>for tour at that point, and and I was like, well,

1:23:22.560 --> 1:23:24.920
<v Speaker 2>that's a good sign. And I think we had just

1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:27.600
<v Speaker 2>found out we were going to play Conan and that

1:23:27.720 --> 1:23:30.240
<v Speaker 2>was a real dream come true. We just love Conan O'Brien,

1:23:30.320 --> 1:23:33.120
<v Speaker 2>and like things were happening, you know. I think we

1:23:33.160 --> 1:23:36.280
<v Speaker 2>got in a south By Southwest after years of rejection.

1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:38.840
<v Speaker 2>That's I mean, that's like the sort of irony of

1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:41.920
<v Speaker 2>festivals like that south By and stuff like that. It's

1:23:41.960 --> 1:23:45.720
<v Speaker 2>like you're almost getting in when they already have heard

1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:48.800
<v Speaker 2>about you, which is not the point to me, but uh,

1:23:48.880 --> 1:23:52.000
<v Speaker 2>it seems to all snowball are happen at once sometimes.

1:23:52.800 --> 1:23:57.160
<v Speaker 1>So were you pinching yourself? Did you believe it? Did

1:23:57.200 --> 1:23:59.639
<v Speaker 1>you feel like well deserved? Did you feel like it's

1:23:59.640 --> 1:24:01.840
<v Speaker 1>gonna operate in any minute?

1:24:02.080 --> 1:24:04.240
<v Speaker 2>I think I felt like the ladder. I think I

1:24:04.280 --> 1:24:09.479
<v Speaker 2>felt like easy comanies ago, and I was I felt

1:24:09.680 --> 1:24:12.400
<v Speaker 2>like I was in a dangerous place, like I needed

1:24:12.400 --> 1:24:18.439
<v Speaker 2>to protect myself, and I was, you know, I was

1:24:18.479 --> 1:24:21.320
<v Speaker 2>thirty at the time, and I was like I had

1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:26.160
<v Speaker 2>this attitude of like, I don't want them to make

1:24:26.240 --> 1:24:29.360
<v Speaker 2>me someone I'm not. I want to I want to

1:24:29.400 --> 1:24:33.040
<v Speaker 2>feel like true to myself. And so we'd go to

1:24:33.080 --> 1:24:36.040
<v Speaker 2>photo shoots and they would have a rack of clothes

1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:38.360
<v Speaker 2>and I would get upset up, like why did you

1:24:38.400 --> 1:24:41.080
<v Speaker 2>bring clothes? Like I have my clothes. I'm gonna wear

1:24:41.080 --> 1:24:42.880
<v Speaker 2>what I wear, you know. Even down to that, it

1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:45.240
<v Speaker 2>was like, really remember going to the Grammys and they'd

1:24:45.240 --> 1:24:47.439
<v Speaker 2>be like, here's some free sunglasses. You just have to

1:24:47.439 --> 1:24:48.600
<v Speaker 2>take a photo. I was like, I don't want to

1:24:48.600 --> 1:24:51.479
<v Speaker 2>fucking take a photo. Like it was. I felt like

1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:57.400
<v Speaker 2>the industry as a whole, whether it was imagined or real,

1:24:57.720 --> 1:25:01.080
<v Speaker 2>it felt like it was just to sort of like

1:25:01.200 --> 1:25:04.439
<v Speaker 2>soften you to change in a way that I didn't like.

1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't feel safe around. I felt like I

1:25:07.120 --> 1:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>was always in this weird danger zone of maybe whatever

1:25:10.360 --> 1:25:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I thought made us who we were was gonna be

1:25:13.200 --> 1:25:17.360
<v Speaker 2>played around with and rooted out of us. So I

1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:21.320
<v Speaker 2>was like really wary of the whole thing, and then

1:25:23.439 --> 1:25:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't so concerned about like whatever was going to

1:25:25.920 --> 1:25:28.559
<v Speaker 2>happen next. I just felt like a lot of this

1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:33.360
<v Speaker 2>stuff felt cheap, like it wasn't didn't mean that much

1:25:33.439 --> 1:25:36.479
<v Speaker 2>to me versus some other things in my life, Like,

1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:42.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, it felt like objectified, and I don't really

1:25:42.120 --> 1:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>know if that's a healthy way to look at it.

1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:45.640
<v Speaker 2>And I think other people around me were enjoying it

1:25:45.680 --> 1:25:47.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot more. I think now I feel in a

1:25:48.000 --> 1:25:50.280
<v Speaker 2>really happy place with it, because I feel like there's

1:25:50.320 --> 1:25:52.840
<v Speaker 2>a level of like independence from some of that and

1:25:52.880 --> 1:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>security where I'm like, I felt like we built a

1:25:56.280 --> 1:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>trust with an audience that doesn't can't be like taken

1:26:01.439 --> 1:26:04.559
<v Speaker 2>away from us in an instant. But at the time,

1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:07.040
<v Speaker 2>it felt like there's some people out there who just

1:26:07.080 --> 1:26:08.840
<v Speaker 2>like want to make it known that they can make

1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:09.640
<v Speaker 2>you and unmake you.

1:26:11.800 --> 1:26:14.400
<v Speaker 1>So you mentioned a couple of times of being in

1:26:14.439 --> 1:26:18.439
<v Speaker 1>the Grammys, you have this incredible peak with ho, Hey,

1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:22.559
<v Speaker 1>to what degree has that been in your mind for

1:26:22.600 --> 1:26:25.960
<v Speaker 1>the ensuing decade plus we're saying, Hey, you know, I

1:26:26.040 --> 1:26:28.360
<v Speaker 1>have to go back to that pinnacle where I want

1:26:28.360 --> 1:26:30.280
<v Speaker 1>to go back to that pinnacle.

1:26:30.720 --> 1:26:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I think we were really we were really lucky to

1:26:35.120 --> 1:26:38.680
<v Speaker 2>have a like the album. First album, I felt, I'm

1:26:38.760 --> 1:26:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm super proud of that record, and we had Stubborn

1:26:40.960 --> 1:26:43.479
<v Speaker 2>Love is like a follow up to that to ho hey,

1:26:44.120 --> 1:26:46.479
<v Speaker 2>and my manager at the time brought up this really

1:26:46.479 --> 1:26:48.679
<v Speaker 2>good point that I had lost sight of. He said,

1:26:48.720 --> 1:26:51.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, if any band had that song and that

1:26:51.320 --> 1:26:54.640
<v Speaker 2>was their only song off that album, they would be

1:26:54.720 --> 1:26:56.960
<v Speaker 2>over the moon. That is a big deal. It's just

1:26:57.080 --> 1:27:01.240
<v Speaker 2>was like you're talking about ZEITG stuff when you talk

1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:04.880
<v Speaker 2>about what happened around o Hey. That's not as lightning

1:27:04.880 --> 1:27:08.639
<v Speaker 2>in a bottle. That's almost circumstances way beyond anyone's control.

1:27:09.479 --> 1:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>And when we came out the second record, I was

1:27:15.040 --> 1:27:17.040
<v Speaker 2>I felt like we had made an even better record

1:27:17.720 --> 1:27:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and like instinctively, you know, and then I felt like

1:27:21.960 --> 1:27:26.599
<v Speaker 2>we were really really lucky that Ophelia had the connection

1:27:26.720 --> 1:27:30.800
<v Speaker 2>it did and it had its own moment where we

1:27:30.800 --> 1:27:33.400
<v Speaker 2>didn't feel like we had to prove that was just

1:27:33.400 --> 1:27:35.439
<v Speaker 2>a fluke, you know. I felt like that already with

1:27:35.920 --> 1:27:39.320
<v Speaker 2>having Stubborn Love in the mix, but then having Ophelia

1:27:39.439 --> 1:27:42.280
<v Speaker 2>just shoot up, and then we had Cleo and Angela

1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:47.200
<v Speaker 2>on that second record. It was. It was definitely strange

1:27:47.240 --> 1:27:50.960
<v Speaker 2>to to you know, you come out of the gates

1:27:50.960 --> 1:27:53.360
<v Speaker 2>with your first album and you get nominated for Best

1:27:53.400 --> 1:27:56.280
<v Speaker 2>New Artists and Best Americana Record, and then you put

1:27:56.320 --> 1:28:00.000
<v Speaker 2>out what you feel is a better record that connect

1:28:00.080 --> 1:28:03.000
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of people, and it's just crickets from

1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:06.479
<v Speaker 2>the Grammys. There's not like a nomination. But I don't

1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:09.519
<v Speaker 2>I've learned over time that that's like, that's just a

1:28:09.520 --> 1:28:14.439
<v Speaker 2>strange world. I don't I don't necessarily understand how things are.

1:28:15.080 --> 1:28:17.120
<v Speaker 2>I know we don't fit neatly into a box, so

1:28:17.160 --> 1:28:19.639
<v Speaker 2>that probably works against us with some of that stuff.

1:28:19.680 --> 1:28:21.120
<v Speaker 2>And I know we're not on a major I know

1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:23.360
<v Speaker 2>we don't play the game as well as other people.

1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:26.400
<v Speaker 2>But it was surprising to be like, I'm just kind

1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:28.280
<v Speaker 2>of shocked we got nominated at all, knowing what I

1:28:28.360 --> 1:28:30.559
<v Speaker 2>know now, and then we got to play the show.

1:28:31.439 --> 1:28:33.479
<v Speaker 2>It was kind of a miracle for us because that

1:28:33.720 --> 1:28:35.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our friends and family and just fans

1:28:35.640 --> 1:28:37.599
<v Speaker 2>thought we had won because we had played the show.

1:28:37.760 --> 1:28:42.160
<v Speaker 2>So like in a lot of ways, it's it's a

1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:46.479
<v Speaker 2>really beautiful break like turn of events and break for us.

1:28:46.520 --> 1:28:49.960
<v Speaker 2>And now we've kind of remained under the radar as

1:28:50.000 --> 1:28:52.720
<v Speaker 2>far as that goes. But I guess you just you

1:28:53.200 --> 1:28:54.920
<v Speaker 2>take your breaks where you can get them. That's how

1:28:54.960 --> 1:28:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I kind of view it. It's like, at first, you

1:28:57.560 --> 1:28:59.479
<v Speaker 2>don't understand it and it doesn't make sense, and it

1:28:59.479 --> 1:29:04.040
<v Speaker 2>can be kind of like deflating, but it's also a

1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:08.200
<v Speaker 2>strange measure of yourself. If that's how you're like viewing it,

1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:09.559
<v Speaker 2>you know it's a kind of a trap.

1:29:10.800 --> 1:29:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there's four years between the first and second albums.

1:29:15.439 --> 1:29:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Why is that?

1:29:17.600 --> 1:29:22.040
<v Speaker 2>We toured a lot, and we just we wanted the

1:29:22.080 --> 1:29:24.720
<v Speaker 2>first album we only had ten days to make to

1:29:24.840 --> 1:29:28.360
<v Speaker 2>record and I think five days to mix, and this

1:29:28.400 --> 1:29:31.080
<v Speaker 2>one we wanted like a chunk of time, so it

1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:34.040
<v Speaker 2>was like six weeks. We just kind of waited. We

1:29:34.080 --> 1:29:36.479
<v Speaker 2>didn't record while we were touring, so we waited until

1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:39.040
<v Speaker 2>touring wrapped up, which was lasted something like three years,

1:29:40.000 --> 1:29:43.559
<v Speaker 2>and then it took a half a year to write

1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:45.120
<v Speaker 2>and record the record, and then by the time it

1:29:45.160 --> 1:29:48.080
<v Speaker 2>came out it was four years. But I didn't particularly

1:29:48.120 --> 1:29:50.320
<v Speaker 2>care that much about how long it took. I just

1:29:50.360 --> 1:29:54.599
<v Speaker 2>thought the fastest way to plummet is to put out

1:29:54.640 --> 1:29:57.400
<v Speaker 2>a mediocre record, So I was like, as long as

1:29:57.479 --> 1:30:02.160
<v Speaker 2>this is strong, we're our chances of like survival and all.

1:30:02.240 --> 1:30:06.479
<v Speaker 2>This is way higher than if we rush something to

1:30:06.560 --> 1:30:12.600
<v Speaker 2>please someone. I think today's people making music have a

1:30:12.640 --> 1:30:15.439
<v Speaker 2>lot of fear around people forgetting about them, and I

1:30:15.520 --> 1:30:18.479
<v Speaker 2>just don't agree with that. I think I get really

1:30:18.479 --> 1:30:21.240
<v Speaker 2>turned off when I hear music that sounds rushed. It

1:30:21.360 --> 1:30:26.640
<v Speaker 2>sounds like half baked versus someone who, oh yeah, remember that.

1:30:26.680 --> 1:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I love that band, and every time they put something out,

1:30:29.000 --> 1:30:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I fucking dig it. So I was never really too concerned.

1:30:32.240 --> 1:30:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I know our management was a bit or a label,

1:30:34.920 --> 1:30:37.280
<v Speaker 2>and our management are concerned about those types of things,

1:30:37.280 --> 1:30:38.880
<v Speaker 2>but it never really bothered me that much.

1:30:46.600 --> 1:30:50.240
<v Speaker 1>So what is the process? Do you say, oh, it's

1:30:50.320 --> 1:30:52.960
<v Speaker 1>time for a new album, let me write songs. You're

1:30:52.960 --> 1:30:54.400
<v Speaker 1>writing songs all the time.

1:30:55.120 --> 1:30:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I think it's you're always kind of collecting little little

1:30:59.000 --> 1:31:02.080
<v Speaker 2>song ideas, little parts of songs throughout touring and then

1:31:02.120 --> 1:31:06.719
<v Speaker 2>off tour. I sift through all those ideas and Jerry

1:31:06.760 --> 1:31:08.760
<v Speaker 2>sends me his ideas to sit through those, and then

1:31:08.840 --> 1:31:11.320
<v Speaker 2>you you often react to those ideas and come up

1:31:11.320 --> 1:31:13.040
<v Speaker 2>with new ones, and then you kind of smash them

1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:15.799
<v Speaker 2>all together. Those good ideas and that makes a record,

1:31:16.160 --> 1:31:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and then some of us just written on the spot,

1:31:17.960 --> 1:31:21.680
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of it is just like ideas that

1:31:21.720 --> 1:31:24.519
<v Speaker 2>have been existing independent of each other, just sitting around

1:31:24.520 --> 1:31:27.040
<v Speaker 2>on your voice note voice memo thing.

1:31:27.640 --> 1:31:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So if the record that's coming out automatic imminently,

1:31:32.560 --> 1:31:37.519
<v Speaker 1>if that was cut in July, when were the songs written.

1:31:38.720 --> 1:31:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was cut in like May June. So songs

1:31:43.160 --> 1:31:47.400
<v Speaker 2>were written. I want to say, they're written March, like

1:31:47.520 --> 1:31:49.080
<v Speaker 2>end of March, early April.

1:31:49.520 --> 1:31:51.640
<v Speaker 1>So they were written right before the record.

1:31:51.680 --> 1:31:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like, and they weren't really written. They were just

1:31:54.320 --> 1:31:58.559
<v Speaker 2>really rough, rough, rough sketches. They were not well written

1:31:58.640 --> 1:32:02.400
<v Speaker 2>or recorded at all. They were just quick notes, quick

1:32:02.479 --> 1:32:06.240
<v Speaker 2>voice memos. Meet Jared and I did around a guitar

1:32:06.280 --> 1:32:09.080
<v Speaker 2>and a piano usually and just hey, I think this

1:32:09.120 --> 1:32:12.240
<v Speaker 2>is the melody. And then and then I would take

1:32:12.320 --> 1:32:15.439
<v Speaker 2>like I would take a adder all and just walk

1:32:15.479 --> 1:32:17.880
<v Speaker 2>around the park and just mumble to myself like a

1:32:17.920 --> 1:32:22.400
<v Speaker 2>schizophrenic person and just get a bunch of lyrics written

1:32:22.920 --> 1:32:28.160
<v Speaker 2>between when we finished sort of demoing the the rough,

1:32:28.240 --> 1:32:30.639
<v Speaker 2>rough ideas and then trying to fill in the blanks

1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:34.639
<v Speaker 2>with some lyrics. So it was like that that area

1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:37.719
<v Speaker 2>of time was just a lot of constant like trying

1:32:37.720 --> 1:32:39.920
<v Speaker 2>to create something, and it was and then when we

1:32:39.960 --> 1:32:42.479
<v Speaker 2>got to the studio, I think it's our it's I

1:32:42.479 --> 1:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>think it's our best record on a lot of levels,

1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:50.559
<v Speaker 2>mainly because take the first record, for example, we we

1:32:50.560 --> 1:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>had written all those songs over the course of like

1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:56.439
<v Speaker 2>three four years, and then we had performed them hundreds

1:32:56.479 --> 1:32:59.000
<v Speaker 2>of times, and so by the time we went in

1:32:59.040 --> 1:33:02.439
<v Speaker 2>to make the Alb it was like you knew everything

1:33:02.479 --> 1:33:05.280
<v Speaker 2>about the songs, and there wasn't discovery, There wasn't like

1:33:06.080 --> 1:33:10.400
<v Speaker 2>that feeling of danger or curiosity. It was just like execution,

1:33:11.520 --> 1:33:13.280
<v Speaker 2>almost like you'd been putting on a play and now

1:33:13.320 --> 1:33:17.400
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna do the movie of it. And and this

1:33:17.439 --> 1:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>one was there's we had no we call demo ititis,

1:33:21.040 --> 1:33:24.040
<v Speaker 2>where you've done something so cool as a demo and

1:33:24.040 --> 1:33:27.160
<v Speaker 2>now you're all you're really trying to do is like

1:33:27.280 --> 1:33:31.360
<v Speaker 2>pantomime thatt recreate that, and that's impossible. It's like I

1:33:31.360 --> 1:33:33.759
<v Speaker 2>always say, it's like if you ever have the best

1:33:33.840 --> 1:33:36.519
<v Speaker 2>date with your partner, every time you go back to

1:33:36.560 --> 1:33:38.800
<v Speaker 2>that restaurant and try to recreate it, it's always not

1:33:38.920 --> 1:33:43.320
<v Speaker 2>as good. And there's something about that process that we

1:33:43.360 --> 1:33:46.679
<v Speaker 2>did on this one where you can hear us being

1:33:47.000 --> 1:33:52.120
<v Speaker 2>like children just exploring and like playing around like they say,

1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:56.240
<v Speaker 2>play music like we were playing for the first time

1:33:56.280 --> 1:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>in a long time, and it was It was really beautiful,

1:33:59.360 --> 1:34:01.960
<v Speaker 2>and it kind of it was surprising that twenty years

1:34:02.000 --> 1:34:06.559
<v Speaker 2>in Jere and I were as excited as we've ever

1:34:06.600 --> 1:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>been for something. It made me feel good about me

1:34:10.200 --> 1:34:13.439
<v Speaker 2>and him and a band and what we're doing because

1:34:13.520 --> 1:34:16.479
<v Speaker 2>I know there are elements of this where bands kind

1:34:16.479 --> 1:34:18.880
<v Speaker 2>of get into it for other reasons and then it

1:34:19.000 --> 1:34:21.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of becomes something different over time. And for us,

1:34:21.680 --> 1:34:24.920
<v Speaker 2>it was like, wow, this is great. Can you know?

1:34:25.320 --> 1:34:28.240
<v Speaker 2>There was such a a wellspring in it and I

1:34:28.320 --> 1:34:29.640
<v Speaker 2>think you can hear on the record and we did

1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:33.559
<v Speaker 2>most of them takes are live. They're like really there's

1:34:33.600 --> 1:34:36.160
<v Speaker 2>a a lot of humanity and all of it.

1:34:37.360 --> 1:34:40.320
<v Speaker 1>So was there like hard start date that you were

1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:44.439
<v Speaker 1>working towards. Yeah, And who's the producer on the new album?

1:34:45.320 --> 1:34:48.080
<v Speaker 2>There's three it's like us, me and Jerr and then

1:34:48.200 --> 1:34:49.759
<v Speaker 2>David Baron and Simon Fleee.

1:34:50.960 --> 1:34:53.519
<v Speaker 1>So you've continued to work with Simon Felice. What does

1:34:53.560 --> 1:34:54.519
<v Speaker 1>he add to the mix?

1:34:55.680 --> 1:34:58.919
<v Speaker 2>I think he has this kind of like raw instinct

1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:01.680
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to things that are working, and an

1:35:01.720 --> 1:35:07.160
<v Speaker 2>ability to unite the troops. You know, he kinda when

1:35:07.200 --> 1:35:09.720
<v Speaker 2>things are starting to splinter off, he can bring the

1:35:09.800 --> 1:35:14.720
<v Speaker 2>room back together. And he's really a savant when it

1:35:14.720 --> 1:35:19.519
<v Speaker 2>comes to lyrics. So I really love to check in

1:35:19.600 --> 1:35:22.240
<v Speaker 2>with him about stuff that I'm doing. What do you

1:35:22.320 --> 1:35:24.040
<v Speaker 2>what do you like? What do you really think of this?

1:35:24.760 --> 1:35:26.600
<v Speaker 2>And he'll tell me just shoot me straight with that.

1:35:28.920 --> 1:35:32.439
<v Speaker 2>And then David's more of he's a great producer in

1:35:32.439 --> 1:35:34.559
<v Speaker 2>his own right, but he's he's also a wizard when

1:35:34.560 --> 1:35:37.639
<v Speaker 2>it comes to the engineering side of things, and he's

1:35:37.640 --> 1:35:39.360
<v Speaker 2>an artist in his own way when it comes to,

1:35:41.200 --> 1:35:45.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, presenting a guitar, presenting a vocal or presenting

1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:51.760
<v Speaker 2>piano drum sounds. It's like he's really pushing that to

1:35:51.840 --> 1:35:56.720
<v Speaker 2>the limit as far as like what what's possible and

1:35:56.760 --> 1:36:00.120
<v Speaker 2>how raw you want to make it? And like with

1:36:00.200 --> 1:36:02.599
<v Speaker 2>the vocals, for example, all the vocals are like sitting

1:36:02.680 --> 1:36:04.720
<v Speaker 2>really upfront in the mix and not a lot of

1:36:04.760 --> 1:36:08.559
<v Speaker 2>adornment for most of them. Like a song like Automatic,

1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:11.560
<v Speaker 2>the title track is just like right, he describeses like

1:36:11.560 --> 1:36:15.240
<v Speaker 2>it's holding right in the center, right at you, and

1:36:15.280 --> 1:36:18.479
<v Speaker 2>he's just encouraged us to be really brave with our

1:36:18.600 --> 1:36:23.479
<v Speaker 2>choices and mixing, and I think it and he was

1:36:23.520 --> 1:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the one who wanted it to be like get back

1:36:25.600 --> 1:36:28.360
<v Speaker 2>the Beatles, where it's a big, open room and there's

1:36:28.400 --> 1:36:31.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bleed and you're kind of like playing

1:36:31.280 --> 1:36:35.519
<v Speaker 2>all together live, not multi tracking and doing everything separately.

1:36:35.840 --> 1:36:38.719
<v Speaker 2>So he's a big he was like the instrumental force

1:36:38.800 --> 1:36:39.240
<v Speaker 2>behind that.

1:36:40.720 --> 1:36:43.479
<v Speaker 1>So how do you feel about your touring band playing

1:36:43.520 --> 1:36:46.040
<v Speaker 1>on the record or other musicians.

1:36:46.800 --> 1:36:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean on this one, it was just me

1:36:48.479 --> 1:36:53.559
<v Speaker 2>and Jerr and then we brought in a violinist who

1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:57.479
<v Speaker 2>this violin player was from the area, and then it

1:36:57.640 --> 1:37:00.720
<v Speaker 2>was not Lauren Jacobson, who's been played with us on

1:37:00.760 --> 1:37:06.120
<v Speaker 2>every record since the beginning. She wasn't she wasn't in

1:37:06.120 --> 1:37:09.519
<v Speaker 2>the immediate area the day we wanted violin, and so

1:37:09.600 --> 1:37:12.320
<v Speaker 2>we we tried out and we didn't want to have

1:37:12.439 --> 1:37:14.960
<v Speaker 2>her on call in terms of it just felt like

1:37:15.800 --> 1:37:18.600
<v Speaker 2>we weren't even sure if what we wanted, so we

1:37:18.720 --> 1:37:21.080
<v Speaker 2>called someone local, weren't sure if that wasn't sure, if

1:37:21.080 --> 1:37:23.240
<v Speaker 2>that was gonna be a placeholder or whatever. And then

1:37:23.280 --> 1:37:26.200
<v Speaker 2>it worked out and Lauren was super understanding of what

1:37:26.200 --> 1:37:29.559
<v Speaker 2>we were trying how it all unfolded, which credit to her.

1:37:31.000 --> 1:37:34.240
<v Speaker 2>With regards to the other instruments we have Byron Isaac's

1:37:34.280 --> 1:37:36.280
<v Speaker 2>on bass and he tours with us. He used to

1:37:36.320 --> 1:37:39.479
<v Speaker 2>play with Leavon home and for like six years and

1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:42.040
<v Speaker 2>wrote a song or two on his Dirt Farmer record,

1:37:42.080 --> 1:37:46.080
<v Speaker 2>and he's an amazing musician in his own right. We

1:37:46.120 --> 1:37:48.800
<v Speaker 2>met him on the second album and he's been with

1:37:48.880 --> 1:37:50.719
<v Speaker 2>us ever since. So he played with us a lot

1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:54.519
<v Speaker 2>live for this for this album, and then we had,

1:37:55.200 --> 1:38:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a choir of three singers that would come in,

1:38:00.560 --> 1:38:04.080
<v Speaker 2>amazing singers and they would do backing vocals, and we

1:38:04.160 --> 1:38:06.840
<v Speaker 2>had a little bit of James Felee, Simon's brother who

1:38:06.880 --> 1:38:09.639
<v Speaker 2>has sang on our records a lot. He's fantastic. He's

1:38:09.640 --> 1:38:10.960
<v Speaker 2>in the Police Brothers.

1:38:11.600 --> 1:38:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Even when Ho Hay was a hit twenty twelve,

1:38:16.160 --> 1:38:20.160
<v Speaker 1>the landscape was completely different from the way it is today. Today.

1:38:20.200 --> 1:38:22.639
<v Speaker 1>You look at the Spotify Top fifty, you can look

1:38:22.680 --> 1:38:26.879
<v Speaker 1>at the top five records and people a vast swath

1:38:27.439 --> 1:38:31.960
<v Speaker 1>of the public, even music fans, have never heard them.

1:38:32.000 --> 1:38:34.880
<v Speaker 1>So when you put out a record today, I mean

1:38:34.920 --> 1:38:38.600
<v Speaker 1>the old cliche used to be that the tour was

1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:41.720
<v Speaker 1>the advertisement for the record. The record is now the

1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:46.920
<v Speaker 1>advertisement for the tour. You make a new album, not

1:38:47.040 --> 1:38:49.080
<v Speaker 1>to mention the fact, I'm sure you'll sell you know,

1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:52.960
<v Speaker 1>physical product, whatever, but eighty four percent of the revenues

1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:57.440
<v Speaker 1>now or on streams. What are your expectations.

1:38:59.240 --> 1:39:03.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I try to keep my I try

1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:06.680
<v Speaker 2>to keep everything kind of like as a surprise. I

1:39:06.720 --> 1:39:08.760
<v Speaker 2>don't really know on tour where I'm gonna be the

1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:11.800
<v Speaker 2>next day. I don't look too far ahead, and it's

1:39:11.800 --> 1:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>almost like not on purpose, but it's instinctive. So I

1:39:16.560 --> 1:39:18.800
<v Speaker 2>like being surprised if people connect with it. I think

1:39:18.840 --> 1:39:21.200
<v Speaker 2>that was what was cleansing about making an album. Three

1:39:21.680 --> 1:39:24.160
<v Speaker 2>was like I knew it wasn't gonna do quote unquote

1:39:24.200 --> 1:39:27.439
<v Speaker 2>well like I knew it. I was like, this is

1:39:27.479 --> 1:39:29.880
<v Speaker 2>not that type of record, and I still want to

1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:33.439
<v Speaker 2>make it. I think it's important that we make this record.

1:39:33.880 --> 1:39:36.200
<v Speaker 2>And it kind of tamped down whatever that part of

1:39:36.240 --> 1:39:40.080
<v Speaker 2>my side of my brain or that ego part of it.

1:39:40.080 --> 1:39:43.760
<v Speaker 2>It was freeing to just make something for the sake

1:39:43.800 --> 1:39:46.040
<v Speaker 2>of making it. That's probably you know, that's how you

1:39:46.080 --> 1:39:49.920
<v Speaker 2>should make every record. And so with this one, I mean,

1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:55.360
<v Speaker 2>I'll say that the early responses of playing it live

1:39:56.160 --> 1:39:59.360
<v Speaker 2>are really special, and I don't think that's I think

1:39:59.360 --> 1:40:02.040
<v Speaker 2>that's a strong indicator of it's more. I think the

1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:06.320
<v Speaker 2>more the bigger question is like, well, anyone know it's out?

1:40:06.439 --> 1:40:09.360
<v Speaker 2>And if you're not dating or Kardashian, does anyone know

1:40:09.439 --> 1:40:13.360
<v Speaker 2>your music or something? So I think there's ways people

1:40:13.920 --> 1:40:17.240
<v Speaker 2>cleverly promote. Whether it's Jack White, who I think does

1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:20.840
<v Speaker 2>it super artfully, it's like a genius when it comes

1:40:20.880 --> 1:40:22.920
<v Speaker 2>to letting you know he has a record out.

1:40:23.040 --> 1:40:23.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

1:40:24.120 --> 1:40:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I feel like we've always been a slow burn and

1:40:27.600 --> 1:40:33.080
<v Speaker 2>hopefully things take hold, but it feels like a trap

1:40:33.160 --> 1:40:36.280
<v Speaker 2>to like want something specific to happen with it. And also,

1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:38.479
<v Speaker 2>I've been proud of every record we've made, and they're

1:40:38.479 --> 1:40:41.760
<v Speaker 2>not always they don't always hit the way that you

1:40:41.840 --> 1:40:46.040
<v Speaker 2>thought they would, or the songs like look we have

1:40:46.920 --> 1:40:50.080
<v Speaker 2>on on the album three, we had a song called Donna,

1:40:50.439 --> 1:40:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know what the streaming numbers are on that,

1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>but like live, that's a big song for us, and

1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.479
<v Speaker 2>that means so much because it's a slow, piano, sad

1:41:01.600 --> 1:41:04.960
<v Speaker 2>song and I just love when those things. I love

1:41:05.000 --> 1:41:08.800
<v Speaker 2>when I feel like the audience is choosing something organically

1:41:09.520 --> 1:41:14.040
<v Speaker 2>and they haven't been force fed something, because obviously when

1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:17.439
<v Speaker 2>something like Ophelia happens or oh hey, that stuff is

1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:19.920
<v Speaker 2>force fed, it's like a duck, you know, making the

1:41:19.960 --> 1:41:24.120
<v Speaker 2>foie gras. It's like the audience is it's forced upon them,

1:41:24.400 --> 1:41:27.080
<v Speaker 2>and I don't that's part of the game. But what

1:41:27.240 --> 1:41:29.760
<v Speaker 2>made me really happy or mental lot to me was

1:41:30.240 --> 1:41:32.639
<v Speaker 2>when people like songs I Slow It Down or Donna,

1:41:32.840 --> 1:41:37.920
<v Speaker 2>or songs that never made the radio. You know. Those

1:41:37.920 --> 1:41:41.560
<v Speaker 2>are those show you that an audience is is discerning

1:41:41.920 --> 1:41:45.000
<v Speaker 2>and does have a taste, and they tell you by

1:41:45.840 --> 1:41:48.840
<v Speaker 2>by how they listen to it online or had a show.

1:41:48.880 --> 1:41:51.560
<v Speaker 2>You could just feel. And that's to me, that's a

1:41:51.600 --> 1:41:56.600
<v Speaker 2>lot more like sustainable and reassuring, and I try to

1:41:56.600 --> 1:41:59.559
<v Speaker 2>focus on that because otherwise it's like, I mean, I'm

1:41:59.560 --> 1:42:02.160
<v Speaker 2>not just turned forty two or not like a young band.

1:42:02.200 --> 1:42:06.479
<v Speaker 2>This isn't like the new shiny thing. And I hope that.

1:42:07.160 --> 1:42:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I hope that's it's a situation like Tom Petty Wildflowers,

1:42:10.520 --> 1:42:15.679
<v Speaker 2>where it's like a renaissance constantly. I couldn't believe being

1:42:15.680 --> 1:42:21.479
<v Speaker 2>a teenager listening to that album and it feeling so fresh,

1:42:22.320 --> 1:42:25.439
<v Speaker 2>and I could go backwards in his catalog and get

1:42:25.479 --> 1:42:29.200
<v Speaker 2>blown away, like it's so such a cool feeling, and

1:42:29.280 --> 1:42:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm I've always been enamored by that situation. Just it

1:42:33.000 --> 1:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>was a very formative time for me. I remember holding

1:42:35.640 --> 1:42:40.800
<v Speaker 2>that CD. It was that brown paper like CD the

1:42:40.800 --> 1:42:42.840
<v Speaker 2>outside of it, and just being like, who is this guy?

1:42:42.880 --> 1:42:46.080
<v Speaker 2>And then remembering realizing that I'd heard all these songs

1:42:46.160 --> 1:42:50.519
<v Speaker 2>on classic rock stations by this guy, and yet this

1:42:50.560 --> 1:42:53.240
<v Speaker 2>is something he has to say, that's brand new, that's

1:42:53.520 --> 1:42:56.200
<v Speaker 2>maybe the best thing he's done. You know, it's so

1:42:56.200 --> 1:42:59.639
<v Speaker 2>so impressive. So I'd like to believe that it comes

1:42:59.640 --> 1:43:03.880
<v Speaker 2>from like the audience sort of finding it and gravitating

1:43:03.880 --> 1:43:05.880
<v Speaker 2>toward it. But they're so out of our hands.

1:43:07.240 --> 1:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>So you play a gig, you know, if a band

1:43:11.320 --> 1:43:13.920
<v Speaker 1>prior to the turn of the century goes on the

1:43:14.000 --> 1:43:17.200
<v Speaker 1>road and they play the new music, people go to

1:43:17.240 --> 1:43:20.080
<v Speaker 1>the bathroom, what is your experience?

1:43:21.400 --> 1:43:25.280
<v Speaker 2>They do that too, They also stay I mean we

1:43:27.240 --> 1:43:30.280
<v Speaker 2>so we'll play our whole new album live every tour

1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:33.200
<v Speaker 2>we're doing. If that's the if that's the tour we're on,

1:43:33.280 --> 1:43:35.000
<v Speaker 2>if it's like the bright Side tour, we're playing the

1:43:35.000 --> 1:43:37.360
<v Speaker 2>bright side albums, the automatic or You're gonna hear the

1:43:37.439 --> 1:43:41.120
<v Speaker 2>album like, and I think the trick is committing to

1:43:41.160 --> 1:43:45.720
<v Speaker 2>that and fans expecting that is probably an important thing

1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:48.360
<v Speaker 2>for a band to do. Now as you get older,

1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:51.679
<v Speaker 2>who knows how that plays out. Like I remember seeing

1:43:51.720 --> 1:43:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Bruce Springsteen or Tom Petty and they'd have new albums

1:43:55.400 --> 1:43:57.599
<v Speaker 2>out and they would play like chunks of the album

1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:01.880
<v Speaker 2>select tracks, and I see that as cool too, But

1:44:02.000 --> 1:44:06.840
<v Speaker 2>for us it wasn't. Maybe it was encouragement by our

1:44:06.880 --> 1:44:09.439
<v Speaker 2>booking agents or management or something I don't really know,

1:44:09.520 --> 1:44:13.559
<v Speaker 2>but instinctively, it was really fun to play new stuff,

1:44:13.960 --> 1:44:17.719
<v Speaker 2>even if I feel like you break people in enough

1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to it the shock goes away or something and they're

1:44:19.960 --> 1:44:23.479
<v Speaker 2>just they're down with it. And like we opened for

1:44:23.520 --> 1:44:27.759
<v Speaker 2>You two in twenty seventeen, and that was the first

1:44:28.160 --> 1:44:31.080
<v Speaker 2>time I think in their career where they had really

1:44:31.080 --> 1:44:33.920
<v Speaker 2>like kind of looked back. They played Joshua Tree as

1:44:33.960 --> 1:44:36.679
<v Speaker 2>an entire They were going to play the whole thing,

1:44:37.000 --> 1:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was thirty years or something anniversary and we

1:44:39.800 --> 1:44:44.160
<v Speaker 2>were opening and they started playing stadiums for that. Two

1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:46.600
<v Speaker 2>nights at the Rose Bowl was the first gigs we

1:44:46.680 --> 1:44:49.920
<v Speaker 2>played with them. And so they had gone from playing

1:44:49.920 --> 1:44:53.559
<v Speaker 2>arenas to stadiums because they were willing to play older stuff.

1:44:55.000 --> 1:44:57.720
<v Speaker 2>But I thought, what a testament to you two that

1:44:58.760 --> 1:45:01.479
<v Speaker 2>they've continued to like do what they wanted to do

1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:04.040
<v Speaker 2>and not being like dance, Monkey Dance, I'm gonna play

1:45:04.040 --> 1:45:06.280
<v Speaker 2>only the hits and I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy these

1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:08.439
<v Speaker 2>stadium gigs. They were like, we want to play it

1:45:08.479 --> 1:45:11.240
<v Speaker 2>our way. So if our way means you play arenas,

1:45:12.479 --> 1:45:16.160
<v Speaker 2>that's great too. And uh so they're they're playing arenas

1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:19.360
<v Speaker 2>as like almost their version of an underplay versus like

1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:26.639
<v Speaker 2>playing just the hits. And I think for us playing

1:45:26.640 --> 1:45:30.559
<v Speaker 2>the whole song, playing the whole album, uh for for

1:45:30.560 --> 1:45:34.160
<v Speaker 2>for audiences has been it was tough in the beginning,

1:45:34.200 --> 1:45:35.800
<v Speaker 2>but it was all we had. Like we put out

1:45:35.840 --> 1:45:38.120
<v Speaker 2>our second album, what were supposed to do? We didn't

1:45:38.200 --> 1:45:41.400
<v Speaker 2>enough music to fill up like the whole the whole time,

1:45:41.680 --> 1:45:44.040
<v Speaker 2>unless it was cover songs. So from the beginning we

1:45:44.040 --> 1:45:46.200
<v Speaker 2>were forced to play our whole records. And now it's

1:45:46.240 --> 1:45:48.160
<v Speaker 2>just an old habit that I think is a good

1:45:48.160 --> 1:45:48.639
<v Speaker 2>one to have.

1:45:49.840 --> 1:45:51.719
<v Speaker 1>So I had to get hooked up with Louis Messina.

1:45:53.439 --> 1:45:54.439
<v Speaker 2>That's a really good question.

1:45:54.560 --> 1:45:55.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

1:45:55.560 --> 1:46:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Uh, he came into our world early on and believed us,

1:46:00.760 --> 1:46:07.800
<v Speaker 2>and he works with just heavyweights and had this weird,

1:46:08.160 --> 1:46:13.400
<v Speaker 2>like it's like otherworldly enthusiasm for music for a guy

1:46:13.439 --> 1:46:17.680
<v Speaker 2>who's been doing it for a while and been very successful.

1:46:17.720 --> 1:46:20.360
<v Speaker 2>I think you'd expect someone to walk in the room

1:46:20.400 --> 1:46:25.360
<v Speaker 2>that was a little more businessman, cold calculated, and he's

1:46:25.360 --> 1:46:29.400
<v Speaker 2>like jumping up and down, and he's like tearing up

1:46:29.439 --> 1:46:31.880
<v Speaker 2>at shows and he's like a kid. You know. It's like,

1:46:32.520 --> 1:46:34.960
<v Speaker 2>it's great to see. I mean it. It sounds like

1:46:35.560 --> 1:46:37.680
<v Speaker 2>it should be a prerequisite to work in music that

1:46:37.720 --> 1:46:40.920
<v Speaker 2>you love music, but as you probably well know, not

1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:44.880
<v Speaker 2>everybody who ends up here actually likes it. So it's

1:46:44.960 --> 1:46:48.760
<v Speaker 2>nice to be around people who have that fire and

1:46:48.760 --> 1:46:52.240
<v Speaker 2>that passion and in his case, believed in us way

1:46:52.280 --> 1:46:55.800
<v Speaker 2>more than we ever believed in what it could. I

1:46:56.760 --> 1:46:58.559
<v Speaker 2>hesitate to even say it that way, because I don't

1:46:58.640 --> 1:47:01.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it's odd to like want to play a stadium.

1:47:01.040 --> 1:47:04.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't, that's not like an ambition. But he, for him,

1:47:04.600 --> 1:47:06.519
<v Speaker 2>that's exciting. He's like, I'm gonna get the most people

1:47:06.520 --> 1:47:08.599
<v Speaker 2>at your show, and it's really cool. And he's kind

1:47:08.640 --> 1:47:11.800
<v Speaker 2>of He's made it happen in a lot of ways

1:47:11.800 --> 1:47:14.760
<v Speaker 2>for us, and I think him just expressed in a

1:47:14.800 --> 1:47:17.639
<v Speaker 2>faith in us has made people who haven't paid attention

1:47:17.680 --> 1:47:20.320
<v Speaker 2>to us maybe take us a little more seriously because

1:47:20.360 --> 1:47:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Louis he's like, he's like a mafia dude that like,

1:47:23.680 --> 1:47:26.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, you're a made man if you like he

1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:29.759
<v Speaker 2>kind of like expresses I believe in that, and suddenly

1:47:29.800 --> 1:47:31.960
<v Speaker 2>people go, well, maybe there's something there. And so it

1:47:32.000 --> 1:47:33.519
<v Speaker 2>was a big thing for us. It would be like

1:47:33.560 --> 1:47:37.439
<v Speaker 2>getting a really positive review in a magazine where people

1:47:37.479 --> 1:47:40.080
<v Speaker 2>read it. It's like that's before anybody kind of took

1:47:40.120 --> 1:47:40.800
<v Speaker 2>a chance on us.

1:47:42.240 --> 1:47:47.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, he had to play in Chicago in a stadium.

1:47:47.160 --> 1:47:49.519
<v Speaker 1>What has been You know, You've done a lot of

1:47:49.560 --> 1:47:53.640
<v Speaker 1>work where no one was paying attention other than being enthusiastic.

1:47:53.880 --> 1:47:58.120
<v Speaker 1>And you know his impromod of being Louis, what is

1:47:58.160 --> 1:48:02.519
<v Speaker 1>he added into the mix? And what does he foresee

1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:04.320
<v Speaker 1>going down the path? I know what he's told me,

1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:05.400
<v Speaker 1>but I would hear from you.

1:48:07.560 --> 1:48:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I think he well, I like I can. There's a

1:48:10.320 --> 1:48:13.400
<v Speaker 2>few different ways to talk about it. One is I

1:48:13.400 --> 1:48:17.120
<v Speaker 2>think he knows from just a wealth of experience how

1:48:17.160 --> 1:48:20.280
<v Speaker 2>to like promote a show that I would just never understand,

1:48:20.479 --> 1:48:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Like he just knows how to find the people that

1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:25.000
<v Speaker 2>might go to a show and get them that information.

1:48:25.640 --> 1:48:28.799
<v Speaker 2>So I on a base level, he's just a genius

1:48:28.800 --> 1:48:33.960
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to like how to do that. And

1:48:34.000 --> 1:48:36.120
<v Speaker 2>then I would say, it's our job to deliver a

1:48:36.160 --> 1:48:39.559
<v Speaker 2>show that is memorable and like you want to come

1:48:39.600 --> 1:48:42.760
<v Speaker 2>back to. So it's like there's a deal there. He's like,

1:48:43.160 --> 1:48:45.439
<v Speaker 2>blow their minds. I'm going to bring him here, blow

1:48:45.479 --> 1:48:48.840
<v Speaker 2>their minds. Like and he whenever we see him, he goes,

1:48:48.880 --> 1:48:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I just need one more song, just one more song,

1:48:51.000 --> 1:48:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Like he's always like talking about one I need one

1:48:54.240 --> 1:48:57.000
<v Speaker 2>more song or two more songs, something like that. And

1:48:58.479 --> 1:49:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I know what he means, but I'm like, it's if

1:49:00.360 --> 1:49:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I knew how to do that, I would just do

1:49:02.040 --> 1:49:05.720
<v Speaker 2>it for you. But it's not that simple. But I

1:49:05.720 --> 1:49:09.960
<v Speaker 2>think the other side of it, I think he I

1:49:10.000 --> 1:49:13.479
<v Speaker 2>think he like challenges our management and the band and

1:49:13.479 --> 1:49:16.040
<v Speaker 2>the booking agents to sort of go for it in

1:49:16.040 --> 1:49:20.160
<v Speaker 2>a way that everybody's so cautious that he's like, why

1:49:20.160 --> 1:49:24.720
<v Speaker 2>would you what? Go go big? Like try it, And

1:49:24.760 --> 1:49:27.800
<v Speaker 2>there's something that's a good person to have as a

1:49:27.840 --> 1:49:29.760
<v Speaker 2>part of the mix in the room, you know, Like,

1:49:29.800 --> 1:49:32.320
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot of conservative people and he's

1:49:32.360 --> 1:49:36.880
<v Speaker 2>not like that. He's a dreamer, so he's always like,

1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:40.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, pushing the envelope and getting us and and

1:49:40.320 --> 1:49:42.360
<v Speaker 2>the other part of it is I think he's he's

1:49:42.400 --> 1:49:46.320
<v Speaker 2>aligned with us in the sense of he's not someone

1:49:46.320 --> 1:49:48.240
<v Speaker 2>who's gonna throw out a bunch of money and give

1:49:48.280 --> 1:49:50.800
<v Speaker 2>someone a big advance. He's like, if you win, I win,

1:49:50.880 --> 1:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>and if I win, you win. We're going in on

1:49:53.400 --> 1:49:59.759
<v Speaker 2>this together. That's not like you know, someone's gonna lose.

1:49:59.800 --> 1:50:01.080
<v Speaker 2>And you know what I mean. I think there's like

1:50:01.080 --> 1:50:04.120
<v Speaker 2>a there's like a we're all in this together aspect

1:50:04.160 --> 1:50:08.559
<v Speaker 2>of this that is. I think that's why his business

1:50:08.560 --> 1:50:11.240
<v Speaker 2>works because he's like taking a chance right there with you.

1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:23.479
<v Speaker 1>So, how has it worked financially? Not that you want to,

1:50:23.560 --> 1:50:27.000
<v Speaker 1>but if you stopped playing music right now, is there

1:50:27.080 --> 1:50:28.519
<v Speaker 1>enough money to make it to the end?

1:50:29.600 --> 1:50:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I don't know, but I've talked to

1:50:32.160 --> 1:50:36.320
<v Speaker 2>my people, and every once in a while it's something

1:50:36.360 --> 1:50:41.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't like thinking about as far as like I

1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:46.599
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's just a strange side to this, But yeah,

1:50:46.640 --> 1:50:48.679
<v Speaker 2>I think there's an element of this that if I

1:50:48.720 --> 1:50:53.439
<v Speaker 2>wanted to live a life that was, in my estimation,

1:50:53.800 --> 1:50:56.320
<v Speaker 2>a really good life, I could do that, and that

1:50:56.479 --> 1:51:02.519
<v Speaker 2>makes music become a choice. But I also think it's

1:51:02.560 --> 1:51:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a funny thing because I was discussing this with Simon

1:51:05.080 --> 1:51:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Felice a few years ago, where we got into music

1:51:08.240 --> 1:51:10.960
<v Speaker 2>on the back of the nineties and early two thousands,

1:51:11.560 --> 1:51:15.000
<v Speaker 2>when everyone was like, man, there's no money to be

1:51:15.040 --> 1:51:17.240
<v Speaker 2>made in this bit there, and so it was almost

1:51:17.240 --> 1:51:19.400
<v Speaker 2>like you were joining the Peace Corps or like becoming

1:51:19.400 --> 1:51:23.439
<v Speaker 2>a teacher, where everyone's kind of looking at you like,

1:51:24.080 --> 1:51:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's no money, but I'm glad you exist.

1:51:27.240 --> 1:51:31.120
<v Speaker 2>And so to have that flipped on its head, and

1:51:31.160 --> 1:51:34.599
<v Speaker 2>now people are sometimes doing music to try to make money.

1:51:34.640 --> 1:51:37.479
<v Speaker 2>It's bizarre to me. But I feel like like I

1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:39.720
<v Speaker 2>was standing in front of my house the other day

1:51:39.760 --> 1:51:41.479
<v Speaker 2>and these people were walking by and they were like,

1:51:41.840 --> 1:51:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I live in Denver. And these people were walking by

1:51:43.680 --> 1:51:45.400
<v Speaker 2>and they parked the car and they're like, it's a

1:51:45.439 --> 1:51:48.360
<v Speaker 2>beautiful house, and like I looked, I'm like thanks. Man.

1:51:48.360 --> 1:51:52.840
<v Speaker 2>He's like, wait, you live there, and I was like, yeah, yeah,

1:51:52.880 --> 1:51:54.679
<v Speaker 2>I lived there, and I was with my wife and kids.

1:51:54.720 --> 1:51:57.559
<v Speaker 2>And then he turns I don't believe him, and then

1:51:57.600 --> 1:52:01.120
<v Speaker 2>the person goes, wait, you live there, and he's like yeah.

1:52:01.439 --> 1:52:04.400
<v Speaker 2>And I was talking to a neighbor and they I

1:52:04.400 --> 1:52:06.160
<v Speaker 2>don't believe him, and I was like, I told my

1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:07.719
<v Speaker 2>wife lear I was like, I think that's the nicest

1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:10.240
<v Speaker 2>thing someone's ever said to me. It is like, I

1:52:10.280 --> 1:52:13.240
<v Speaker 2>don't believe him because we didn't really get into this

1:52:13.960 --> 1:52:18.400
<v Speaker 2>for any of that, and so it feels okay to

1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:21.160
<v Speaker 2>to have things go your way and have something nice

1:52:21.200 --> 1:52:23.160
<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't the reason. It's just kind of like

1:52:23.520 --> 1:52:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I could take it or leave it. I enjoy I

1:52:27.040 --> 1:52:29.400
<v Speaker 2>enjoy parts of it, but really it's just like the

1:52:29.520 --> 1:52:33.000
<v Speaker 2>joy of I'm sitting here in my like workshop home

1:52:33.040 --> 1:52:36.720
<v Speaker 2>studio thing. This is the best part of it. And

1:52:36.720 --> 1:52:39.800
<v Speaker 2>then music somehow made its ability to buy a house

1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that, but all of it. It's it's

1:52:44.000 --> 1:52:46.120
<v Speaker 2>cool because none of us got into it of that

1:52:46.400 --> 1:52:49.360
<v Speaker 2>era for money. It was the opposite people thought we

1:52:49.360 --> 1:52:53.439
<v Speaker 2>were being more on So in that way there's a

1:52:53.439 --> 1:52:55.960
<v Speaker 2>guilt free aspect. I remember our first house, like these

1:52:56.040 --> 1:52:59.120
<v Speaker 2>dudes while I was walking that was with my wife

1:52:59.120 --> 1:53:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, oh, go back to mommy and Daddy's house,

1:53:01.400 --> 1:53:03.640
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, all right, man, it's just like

1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:08.960
<v Speaker 2>there's an element of this that I feel like, uh not,

1:53:09.800 --> 1:53:11.960
<v Speaker 2>You're just like this is all kind of funny money.

1:53:11.960 --> 1:53:14.679
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't really make sense. There was no promises about this.

1:53:14.680 --> 1:53:16.880
<v Speaker 2>This is just like this happened to be the era

1:53:17.000 --> 1:53:18.880
<v Speaker 2>we were born in. It could have been twenty years

1:53:18.920 --> 1:53:21.839
<v Speaker 2>ago and I would be in a much different situation.

1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:25.360
<v Speaker 2>It's it's all fucking timing and luck in some of

1:53:25.360 --> 1:53:27.559
<v Speaker 2>that stuff. But the bottom line was I loved music,

1:53:27.640 --> 1:53:30.439
<v Speaker 2>and now this is cool that we're getting paid at

1:53:30.439 --> 1:53:31.040
<v Speaker 2>all to do it.

1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:36.080
<v Speaker 1>So you're going on tour in Europe? What do the

1:53:36.160 --> 1:53:39.680
<v Speaker 1>lumineers mean in Europe? And we now really truly have

1:53:39.720 --> 1:53:42.600
<v Speaker 1>a worldwide business because people can stream your songs or

1:53:42.640 --> 1:53:45.320
<v Speaker 1>not stream your songs all over the world. So what

1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:48.080
<v Speaker 1>do the lumineers mean outside the United States?

1:53:48.560 --> 1:53:52.080
<v Speaker 2>That's a really good question. I mean, like when we

1:53:52.120 --> 1:53:54.160
<v Speaker 2>go to the UK, the UK has like almost never

1:53:54.200 --> 1:53:58.759
<v Speaker 2>played us on the radio ever. We were too old

1:53:58.800 --> 1:54:01.519
<v Speaker 2>for BBC one, we're too young for BBC two, they said,

1:54:01.560 --> 1:54:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and so it's like very grassroots or they heard it

1:54:05.040 --> 1:54:06.919
<v Speaker 2>on like I think they got us on a commercial

1:54:07.000 --> 1:54:08.800
<v Speaker 2>or two, so there's like some way for people to

1:54:08.800 --> 1:54:15.080
<v Speaker 2>hear the song. To me, it's it's it's kind of

1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:19.559
<v Speaker 2>like this underdog thing where it's just we recently got

1:54:19.560 --> 1:54:24.240
<v Speaker 2>to go to Poonie or Pune in India when we

1:54:24.240 --> 1:54:28.000
<v Speaker 2>played a show. There's like fifteen thousand people there and

1:54:28.040 --> 1:54:32.200
<v Speaker 2>we were like, this is insane, Like you know, suddenly

1:54:32.240 --> 1:54:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Spotify exists and smartphones are in everyone's hands all over

1:54:35.240 --> 1:54:39.760
<v Speaker 2>the world. There's places that English just the second language

1:54:40.160 --> 1:54:44.720
<v Speaker 2>and they're playing to a large crowd of people. It's

1:54:44.760 --> 1:54:47.760
<v Speaker 2>it kind of blows my mind. I don't I think.

1:54:48.400 --> 1:54:50.320
<v Speaker 2>I think country to country it's pretty different. Like if

1:54:50.360 --> 1:54:52.880
<v Speaker 2>you take Ireland, I think Ireland likes us because of

1:54:52.880 --> 1:54:57.760
<v Speaker 2>the storytelling, but it's it seems to differ place to place,

1:54:57.760 --> 1:55:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's like almost like not for me to understand.

1:55:01.720 --> 1:55:05.120
<v Speaker 2>But like you know, a I would take a band

1:55:05.160 --> 1:55:08.000
<v Speaker 2>I've always loved, like growing up, like The Killers. The

1:55:08.080 --> 1:55:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Killers are like probably arguably bigger in Europe than in

1:55:10.880 --> 1:55:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the States, and I feel like we're bigger in the

1:55:13.840 --> 1:55:17.280
<v Speaker 2>States than we are in other places. But we've gone

1:55:17.360 --> 1:55:21.520
<v Speaker 2>back so many times to to Italy and to Spain

1:55:21.720 --> 1:55:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and to Ireland and Germany that you start to see

1:55:25.280 --> 1:55:29.960
<v Speaker 2>it slowly grow and it feels like trustworthy or something.

1:55:29.960 --> 1:55:31.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how the right way to say it,

1:55:31.120 --> 1:55:34.800
<v Speaker 2>but it feels like at least something that feels like,

1:55:35.400 --> 1:55:38.040
<v Speaker 2>all right, maybe this is a real thing versus in

1:55:38.080 --> 1:55:40.840
<v Speaker 2>the very beginning. It was like when we first went

1:55:40.840 --> 1:55:44.000
<v Speaker 2>to Europe on our first album, and then we returned

1:55:44.000 --> 1:55:46.920
<v Speaker 2>on the second album, I think our ticket sales like

1:55:47.000 --> 1:55:50.720
<v Speaker 2>divided in half, and it was kind of shocking. It

1:55:50.800 --> 1:55:53.640
<v Speaker 2>was like, whoa, no one's here, what the hell's going on?

1:55:54.160 --> 1:55:56.880
<v Speaker 2>And then we we've sort of like, over the next

1:55:57.080 --> 1:56:01.040
<v Speaker 2>two to three albums, have built everything back up to

1:56:01.080 --> 1:56:04.360
<v Speaker 2>where it once was. And I think that's an interesting

1:56:04.440 --> 1:56:08.880
<v Speaker 2>thing to happen to somebody. It's like you realize in

1:56:08.920 --> 1:56:11.280
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, it's kind of like a moment in time

1:56:11.760 --> 1:56:14.720
<v Speaker 2>and you're and then you slowly grow back into this

1:56:14.800 --> 1:56:17.880
<v Speaker 2>original thing that you thought was so easy, and it

1:56:17.960 --> 1:56:19.480
<v Speaker 2>was like a lot of hard work to get back

1:56:19.520 --> 1:56:21.720
<v Speaker 2>to the thing you thought was easy or it thought

1:56:21.800 --> 1:56:24.200
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, I guess it just happens. Like it

1:56:24.200 --> 1:56:26.440
<v Speaker 2>doesn't just happen. It went away just as fast as

1:56:26.440 --> 1:56:27.000
<v Speaker 2>it happened.

1:56:28.600 --> 1:56:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Once when somebody listens to you. You're very much

1:56:35.960 --> 1:56:38.840
<v Speaker 1>a thinking guy and a little bit like Lloyd Doebler

1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:41.280
<v Speaker 1>in the movie say anything, you know. I don't want

1:56:41.280 --> 1:56:43.600
<v Speaker 1>to sell anything. I don't want to believe in blah

1:56:43.640 --> 1:56:48.520
<v Speaker 1>blah blah blah blah. So I don't know, Jerr, is

1:56:48.560 --> 1:56:52.800
<v Speaker 1>this just okay, We're going on the road. People know

1:56:52.920 --> 1:56:57.720
<v Speaker 1>who we are, We're obviously doing this podcast. But to

1:56:57.800 --> 1:57:01.160
<v Speaker 1>what degree, or you or somebody on social media, to

1:57:01.240 --> 1:57:04.560
<v Speaker 1>what degree is this being worked? Because it doesn't look

1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:05.600
<v Speaker 1>like you're working.

1:57:05.320 --> 1:57:09.480
<v Speaker 2>It worked in terms of like advertising it or something

1:57:09.520 --> 1:57:09.840
<v Speaker 2>like that.

1:57:09.960 --> 1:57:12.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, promoting it, making people aware of it.

1:57:12.640 --> 1:57:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, my wife always jokes that we just married

1:57:15.880 --> 1:57:19.520
<v Speaker 2>the wrong people because we're like not married to famous people,

1:57:19.520 --> 1:57:22.560
<v Speaker 2>and that would have helped our career a lot. No,

1:57:22.680 --> 1:57:24.520
<v Speaker 2>there's not. I mean, I think we try to promote

1:57:24.520 --> 1:57:27.320
<v Speaker 2>it in the way that we would receive. We put

1:57:27.400 --> 1:57:30.040
<v Speaker 2>up a couple of billboards with lyrics on it. I

1:57:30.040 --> 1:57:32.000
<v Speaker 2>think we want to send some lyric books out to

1:57:32.080 --> 1:57:36.320
<v Speaker 2>some fans. We sent like tape recorders out with a

1:57:36.360 --> 1:57:39.040
<v Speaker 2>new song or new album on it to certain people.

1:57:39.440 --> 1:57:42.920
<v Speaker 2>But it's not overly done because I find a lot

1:57:42.920 --> 1:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>of that cheesy and probably not authentic to like, I

1:57:47.760 --> 1:57:50.160
<v Speaker 2>don't think we'd come off doing it well anyway. There's

1:57:50.160 --> 1:57:52.800
<v Speaker 2>some people are just naturals. They're like, that's what they're

1:57:52.800 --> 1:57:55.000
<v Speaker 2>about and they know how to do that. I just

1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:58.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't and I don't care. So I live with

1:57:58.920 --> 1:58:03.520
<v Speaker 2>the I live with the understated rollout and like, you know,

1:58:03.600 --> 1:58:06.240
<v Speaker 2>let the chips fall where they may. But like, in

1:58:06.280 --> 1:58:08.080
<v Speaker 2>another way, we've we put a lot of behind the

1:58:08.120 --> 1:58:10.160
<v Speaker 2>scenes work into Like there were a lot of years

1:58:10.160 --> 1:58:15.000
<v Speaker 2>where we were showing up to radio station early morning

1:58:15.320 --> 1:58:18.040
<v Speaker 2>the day of a gig and playing an in studio

1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:21.200
<v Speaker 2>session and doing an interview. We did a lot of that,

1:58:21.240 --> 1:58:24.360
<v Speaker 2>I think to try to like plant seeds of maybe

1:58:24.360 --> 1:58:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the radio will support us in some ways, or you know,

1:58:27.480 --> 1:58:31.240
<v Speaker 2>there's different ways to do it. But I sit back

1:58:31.280 --> 1:58:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and total admiration of someone like Jack White, who can

1:58:38.240 --> 1:58:40.480
<v Speaker 2>he can promote something and somehow it's just so cool

1:58:40.520 --> 1:58:43.000
<v Speaker 2>the way he does it, And that's just don't I don't.

1:58:43.200 --> 1:58:46.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't have that like same instinct. I can't. I wish,

1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I wish he could help us. But at the same time,

1:58:50.840 --> 1:58:53.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a charm to like letting people find it. I

1:58:53.400 --> 1:58:55.720
<v Speaker 2>think they feel like they own it a little more

1:58:56.040 --> 1:58:58.600
<v Speaker 2>if it's on their terms, which is why hit songs

1:58:58.600 --> 1:59:01.680
<v Speaker 2>don't feel as personal to people. I think they just

1:59:01.720 --> 1:59:04.560
<v Speaker 2>feel like they were shoved into your face, and if

1:59:04.560 --> 1:59:07.560
<v Speaker 2>they're good, it's almost a surprise, you know. It's like

1:59:08.440 --> 1:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>it's like, I'm sure Bruno Mars has some amazing songs,

1:59:11.800 --> 1:59:13.560
<v Speaker 2>but all of them feel like they're just like pushed

1:59:13.800 --> 1:59:17.560
<v Speaker 2>directly into my ear and like it's a little aggressive

1:59:18.120 --> 1:59:21.160
<v Speaker 2>versus like I don't know. I got into Time out

1:59:21.200 --> 1:59:24.040
<v Speaker 2>of Mind, that Dylan record from like ninety nine, I

1:59:24.080 --> 1:59:27.200
<v Speaker 2>want to say ninety seven, and I listened to that

1:59:28.040 --> 1:59:31.880
<v Speaker 2>NonStop this whole recording session. I don't know why. It

1:59:32.000 --> 1:59:33.760
<v Speaker 2>just gave me a lot of comfort and I kept listening.

1:59:33.760 --> 1:59:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I've still listened to it, and it's kind of like Rodriguez.

1:59:36.560 --> 1:59:39.520
<v Speaker 2>There's these albums that I get into. They feel like

1:59:39.680 --> 1:59:43.840
<v Speaker 2>mine because nobody forced me to listen to it, And

1:59:44.520 --> 1:59:47.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe that's part of it. Maybe that's like I mean,

1:59:47.400 --> 1:59:50.080
<v Speaker 2>we were we were sitting in with Zach Bryan. I

1:59:50.120 --> 1:59:54.200
<v Speaker 2>think he's an example of someone who the fans tend

1:59:54.240 --> 1:59:57.600
<v Speaker 2>to feel like his music is their music, and I

1:59:57.640 --> 2:00:00.280
<v Speaker 2>think part of that is that he released this is

2:00:00.280 --> 2:00:04.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot and doesn't really like having an extravagant roll out,

2:00:04.320 --> 2:00:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's just like a here it is unadorned. This

2:00:07.960 --> 2:00:11.360
<v Speaker 2>is it direct to you. And you know there's something

2:00:11.400 --> 2:00:13.440
<v Speaker 2>to be learned from that because everybody thinks that they

2:00:13.480 --> 2:00:16.080
<v Speaker 2>know what they're doing and how to promote a record. Well,

2:00:16.240 --> 2:00:20.200
<v Speaker 2>like he's kind of broken that mold, at least for himself.

2:00:20.200 --> 2:00:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how many people could pull it off,

2:00:21.640 --> 2:00:25.560
<v Speaker 2>but he's a good example of like, hopefully some good

2:00:25.600 --> 2:00:26.800
<v Speaker 2>music can find its own way.

2:00:27.800 --> 2:00:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, Wes, you know we did that piano together. I've

2:00:31.800 --> 2:00:34.640
<v Speaker 1>seen the lumineers, but I'd be lying if I didn't

2:00:34.680 --> 2:00:38.240
<v Speaker 1>say I was anxious, Like I knew you were sort

2:00:38.240 --> 2:00:40.120
<v Speaker 1>of a low key talker. I said, well, you know

2:00:40.240 --> 2:00:42.440
<v Speaker 1>house is going to play out? Am I going to

2:00:42.480 --> 2:00:45.120
<v Speaker 1>be able to go? But you know, I didn't know

2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:48.600
<v Speaker 1>what a thinker you were, and you know how you're

2:00:48.720 --> 2:00:53.360
<v Speaker 1>true to your beliefs. So it's been a real pleasure

2:00:53.480 --> 2:00:56.600
<v Speaker 1>talking to you, and I know my audience will very

2:00:56.680 --> 2:01:00.240
<v Speaker 1>much enjoy listening to you. So thanks for doing this.

2:01:00.560 --> 2:01:03.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, and I revealed I was gay at one point.

2:01:04.480 --> 2:01:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, you're gonna see it on GMG and in five minutes.

2:01:08.160 --> 2:01:10.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's the way to promote this record now

2:01:10.400 --> 2:01:12.200
<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about.

2:01:12.400 --> 2:01:14.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, just before we go, you just put this hat

2:01:14.800 --> 2:01:17.960
<v Speaker 1>back on. This is AWD. Is that the logo from

2:01:18.040 --> 2:01:18.919
<v Speaker 1>the super Room.

2:01:19.360 --> 2:01:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's like I got it at of trendy

2:01:23.160 --> 2:01:27.560
<v Speaker 2>shoe stares as all well dead, but I I think

2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:29.080
<v Speaker 2>it is. I think it's like you'll see it on

2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the Superrew thing.

2:01:30.920 --> 2:01:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, do you have a suber U. I do.

2:01:33.200 --> 2:01:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I have a super U out and the Catskills and

2:01:35.560 --> 2:01:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I have a it's unrelated, but I have a Toyota

2:01:39.400 --> 2:01:42.560
<v Speaker 2>land Cruiser here that I've had for like ten years.

2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:46.600
<v Speaker 2>That that's my real baby. The superw is just a beater.

2:01:46.960 --> 2:01:47.120
<v Speaker 2>You know.

2:01:48.040 --> 2:01:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Wait, wait, what year is your land Cruiser?

2:01:51.720 --> 2:01:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Eighty seven? Nineteen eighty seven.

2:01:53.800 --> 2:01:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so it's the giant station wagon style, not the

2:01:56.880 --> 2:01:58.160
<v Speaker 1>one that looks like a jeep.

2:01:59.160 --> 2:02:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like I think so it's kind of that

2:02:02.160 --> 2:02:04.960
<v Speaker 2>classic like if you see the drug dealers in the

2:02:05.320 --> 2:02:10.600
<v Speaker 2>old movies or old like Netflix has that, uh Narcos, Yeah,

2:02:10.640 --> 2:02:14.280
<v Speaker 2>all driving that, they're all driving they are, Yeah, and

2:02:14.280 --> 2:02:15.400
<v Speaker 2>that's my that's mine.

2:02:16.280 --> 2:02:18.800
<v Speaker 1>So you have a place in the Catskills yeah.

2:02:18.600 --> 2:02:20.720
<v Speaker 2>I have a place in a place called Palinville. It's

2:02:20.760 --> 2:02:24.839
<v Speaker 2>right in your Woodstock. We made the last four records

2:02:24.840 --> 2:02:28.840
<v Speaker 2>out there, so it's just like the first. We were

2:02:28.840 --> 2:02:31.080
<v Speaker 2>gonna make our second record. We had found a studio

2:02:31.240 --> 2:02:34.640
<v Speaker 2>in the woods of Colorado in the middle of nowhere,

2:02:34.680 --> 2:02:40.400
<v Speaker 2>and like three weeks from about to record there, the

2:02:40.440 --> 2:02:43.440
<v Speaker 2>owner called me or called our management and said the

2:02:43.480 --> 2:02:46.960
<v Speaker 2>price it tripled because I guess they found out our

2:02:47.000 --> 2:02:49.360
<v Speaker 2>band or something who we were, and we were like

2:02:50.040 --> 2:02:54.600
<v Speaker 2>what No, So we ended up changing plans and going

2:02:54.600 --> 2:02:57.320
<v Speaker 2>out to the cat Skills for the first time, which

2:02:57.360 --> 2:02:59.200
<v Speaker 2>turned out to be like an hour north of where

2:02:59.200 --> 2:03:02.760
<v Speaker 2>we JOURNI up just fell in love with the area,

2:03:02.800 --> 2:03:05.360
<v Speaker 2>and so I have a few yurts out there in

2:03:05.400 --> 2:03:08.080
<v Speaker 2>a house and it's like a little bit of a

2:03:08.120 --> 2:03:11.040
<v Speaker 2>compound where we spent a lot of time. We make

2:03:11.080 --> 2:03:13.960
<v Speaker 2>records out there. I produced records with David Barrett out there,

2:03:14.600 --> 2:03:16.920
<v Speaker 2>so it's like a beautiful Do do you spend time

2:03:16.960 --> 2:03:17.920
<v Speaker 2>out there? Have you been out there?

2:03:17.960 --> 2:03:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Yeah?

2:03:18.840 --> 2:03:19.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

2:03:19.240 --> 2:03:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

2:03:20.120 --> 2:03:22.600
<v Speaker 2>Where do you go to Woodstock or where do you go? No?

2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean I've been to the Catskills. I worked in

2:03:25.640 --> 2:03:28.800
<v Speaker 1>the Catskills, which this is like before you were born.

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<v Speaker 1>This is like the sixties and seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>But like, what do you remember where all.

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<v Speaker 1>Those hotels went out of business? Yeah, okay, and there

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<v Speaker 1>were summer camps there. I worked at a summer camp.

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<v Speaker 1>You go to Manaicello, I remember, you know, actually seeing

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<v Speaker 1>the Woodstock movie for the third time at a theater

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<v Speaker 1>in mana Celo and going to the Delhi. So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I grew up in Connecticut. That's not awesome,

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<v Speaker 1>so believe me, I know the cats skills.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, we're I mean, it's just kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a really beautiful place and it's close to the city

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<v Speaker 2>in a weird way to have like both of those

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<v Speaker 2>places nearby each other. But yeah, we go out to Hudson,

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<v Speaker 2>New York a lot like Sogerate's Woodstock and then Hunter

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<v Speaker 2>Mountains just around the corner.

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<v Speaker 1>So wait, wait, wait, wait wait Are you a skier

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I snowboard ski?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well Hunter Mountains you know with ski area, yep. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you live in Denver. Need to partake of the mountains.

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<v Speaker 2>A little bit, I like genuinely don't. I generally don't

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<v Speaker 2>do it that often, only because I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>fuck up an entire tour by like tearing an MC

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<v Speaker 2>and a c L. But like, weirdly enough, the epic

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<v Speaker 2>pass that you can buy for vail Rea. They that

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<v Speaker 2>works at Hunter. I know it's wild. So you like

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<v Speaker 2>Simon Fleece came out here a couple of years ago

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<v Speaker 2>and he's like, my past works out at your spot

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<v Speaker 2>in Colorado's wild man.

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<v Speaker 1>So since you grew up in New Jersey and you

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<v Speaker 1>have a place in the Catskills. Because no, the world

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<v Speaker 1>is smaller than ever because of the Internet. But there

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<v Speaker 1>are differences between the East Coast and the West coast.

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<v Speaker 1>So what is the difference between the East Coast and Colorado?

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<v Speaker 2>Pretty big? I mean I felt like the East Coast

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<v Speaker 2>was like, at least music making wise, it was pretty doggy,

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<v Speaker 2>dog pretty like old school competitive Your gain is my loss.

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<v Speaker 2>And then in Colorado was a lot more like there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more Kumbaya in the air. Like stealth helping

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<v Speaker 2>us right off the bat was one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>things that happened to us, you know, so I think

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<v Speaker 2>part of it. I mean I remember walking to work

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<v Speaker 2>in Colorado and the guys I said to a guy,

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<v Speaker 2>how you doing, Like that's just an East coast. How

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<v Speaker 2>you doing right? And he was like pretty good the weather,

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<v Speaker 2>and he like launched into this explanation and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>is this real? This guy's like talking to me right now.

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<v Speaker 2>It was so friendly, and I was I was I

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<v Speaker 2>found myself when I first moved here, like what's the catch?

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<v Speaker 2>What are you trying to do to me? What are

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<v Speaker 2>you trying to sell me? And it's just pretty kind,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Like so I had to adjust to that,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think people actually found me to be quite cold,

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<v Speaker 2>hence the song asshole. But it was like I think

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<v Speaker 2>I was pretty like unnerved by how nice everyone was being,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like I didn't find it very authentic.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, No one's just nice. And then I've been

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<v Speaker 2>here long enough where it's just normal to me now,

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<v Speaker 2>and when I go back East, I can kind of

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<v Speaker 2>switch back to that and I definitely understand it a

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<v Speaker 2>lot more.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>We brought my wife's family out to New York City

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<v Speaker 2>and then the cats goes for Christmas and they were

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<v Speaker 2>like they had never seen people hawking at each other

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<v Speaker 2>or yelling at each other, and I was like, this

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<v Speaker 2>is just normal to me. I was like, I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to the Museum of Natural History as a kid

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<v Speaker 2>and seeing like drug addicts on the street and like

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<v Speaker 2>homeless people and just wild behavior at a sort of

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<v Speaker 2>young age that this is like they're in their twenties now,

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<v Speaker 2>like her brothers in his forties and their kids are

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<v Speaker 2>their teens, and they were just like, well did you

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<v Speaker 2>see that? Guy?

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<v Speaker 1>Yelled the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Guy like yeah, that's like a day in New York,

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<v Speaker 2>Like what's the big deal? So I felt lucky. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I moved here, the biggest thing I noticed was

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<v Speaker 2>like New York and New Jersey, the sort of tri

2:07:32.960 --> 2:07:35.080
<v Speaker 2>state area as a whole, has this hustle to it.

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<v Speaker 2>There is an urgency to everything you're doing that I

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<v Speaker 2>was out hustling people just working normally, so it prepared me.

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<v Speaker 2>I had advantages here just because people were a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more chill, and I was like, what what are we

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<v Speaker 2>doing here? Like what's going on? Like when is band rehearsal?

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<v Speaker 1>What?

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<v Speaker 2>Like I need my coffee, let's go. Like no one

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<v Speaker 2>was like like that, So it was a cool thing

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<v Speaker 2>to come out here and be like, oh, maybe in

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<v Speaker 2>New Jersey I was average speed, but here I'm like working.

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<v Speaker 1>At listen, I can talk to you forever. We're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>call it a close now. In any event, till next time.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bob left six