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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Webset's podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Wesley Schultz of Illumineers. Wesley the band

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Speaker 1: has a new album.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about it, Thanks, Bob. Yeah, we have new album.

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Speaker 2: It's called Automatic. We finished it last June, so we've

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Speaker 2: been waiting to put it out. It feels like forever

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Speaker 2: and it's what do you want to know?

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Speaker 1: There's a Okay, well let's start. Why the delay in

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Speaker 1: releasing the album?

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm not quite sure. I think there's a there's

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Speaker 2: sort of a thing people say about setting up a

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Speaker 2: record that I don't really understand that well, that a

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Speaker 2: lot of younger artists don't seem to need to do

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Speaker 2: it all, so I don't like and it's working for them,

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Speaker 2: But it was kind of a good thing for us.

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Speaker 2: As much as we start to blend time on the

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Speaker 2: road and then recording, it seems like it there's never

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Speaker 2: like a pause to take a breath, So it was

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Speaker 2: kind of, in a weird way, suite to take a

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Speaker 2: minute and regroup and just get ready for about two

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Speaker 2: years on the road. But I don't I wish I

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Speaker 2: had a better answer. I've been told that the things

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Speaker 2: take time to organize and behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the Luveneers were signed to an independent label. Was

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Speaker 1: that a conscious choice.

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Speaker 2: And no, the choice was The choice was basically like

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Speaker 2: when we were starting out. It was twenty twelve when

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Speaker 2: we finally got any attention. We've been trying for myself

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Speaker 2: probably ten years at that point, and with Jare about

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Speaker 2: seven or eight. And so we had put out or

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Speaker 2: we had gotten the song ho Hey put on this

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Speaker 2: TV show is called Heart of Dixie, and they played

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Speaker 2: the whole song. They had muted the dialogue like on

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Speaker 2: the show, and so they played the entire song, and

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Speaker 2: our song was nowhere to be had. You couldn't get

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Speaker 2: it anywhere. It was like the worst If you were

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Speaker 2: trying to blow up, this would be like the worst plan.

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Speaker 2: And so the only place you could find our song

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Speaker 2: was on a site called day Trotter. It's this place

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Speaker 2: outside Chicago where you drive out as a band and

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Speaker 2: you'd record versions of your songs live. So that's the

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Speaker 2: only place people found it. So we shot up I

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Speaker 2: think the like second all time and like day Trotter

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Speaker 2: at the time. But at that point Majors and Indy

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Speaker 2: started approaching us and offering us potential deals, and none

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Speaker 2: of the deals were very good, especially from the major side,

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Speaker 2: and it was a lot of like multi year deals,

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Speaker 2: three to five record deals, and we just wanted a

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Speaker 2: one record deal. We wanted to know whoever worked with

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Speaker 2: us would want to do well like we wanted to

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Speaker 2: do well, and we actually gave the right of first

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Speaker 2: refusal at the time to Daniel Glass. We really wanted

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Speaker 2: Daniel Glass to do this record. He had worked with

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Speaker 2: Phoenix and Mumford and Sons and among other bands, and

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Speaker 2: we thought, well, if he could do it with pretty

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Speaker 2: different bands that aren't sort of on the traditional path

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Speaker 2: per se, maybe he could do it with us. And

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Speaker 2: he came to our show at the Mercury Lounge and

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Speaker 2: he passed on it. He was like, I'm good, no thanks,

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Speaker 2: but I wish you guys all the luck in the world.

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Speaker 2: And so we ended up going with Dualtone, who at

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Speaker 2: the time I think they had Brett Dennen as one

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Speaker 2: of their artists, but he was on the way out.

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Speaker 2: He was heading somewhere else. So it's kind of like, man,

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Speaker 2: I guess it was the only fair deal that was

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Speaker 2: being offered, so we took the fair deal and we

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Speaker 2: could own our own music and you know, keep it

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Speaker 2: all like in house and do one record deal. So

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Speaker 2: we ended up doing that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when you said it was a fair deal, you

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Speaker 1: got to own the record, And was it a typical

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Speaker 1: indie deal fifty to fifty split of net.

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Speaker 2: It was something like that. It's since you know it

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Speaker 2: changes over time slowly. I think it was something like that.

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Speaker 2: It was almost like going in on a business venture

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Speaker 2: with someone where they they're not giving you any money

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Speaker 2: up front. Really, we had already made the record, we

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Speaker 2: had recorded it for like our management at the time,

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Speaker 2: I think front of us money to do that. It

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Speaker 2: was like ten grand to record the album, and then

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Speaker 2: it was and then we ended up scrapping the whole

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Speaker 2: mix of the album because we didn't like what the

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Speaker 2: original producer had done with it. So then we took

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Speaker 2: it to Sound City and Kevin Agunis remixed the whole

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Speaker 2: thing from scratch, and I think we then double the

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Speaker 2: budget to twenty thousand, which looking back, that's a pretty

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Speaker 2: good way to make a record compared to what records

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Speaker 2: cost today. And yeah, we remixed the whole record. I

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Speaker 2: had heard a story about Damien Rice early on, before

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Speaker 2: we had had any record deal, and how he had

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Speaker 2: like scrapped an entire record he had saved up to

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Speaker 2: make because he didn't like how it sounded, and that

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Speaker 2: stuck with me. So when it came time for us,

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Speaker 2: we didn't. It sounded way polished and all these comp takes,

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Speaker 2: it didn't sound like us, It didn't sound like human.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we remixed it and then went on from there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how did the song get in the Dixie Show

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Speaker 1: to begin with?

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Speaker 2: Oh? No, Like somebody heard it and they called it

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Speaker 2: sync it. They synced it to the show. They offered us,

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Speaker 2: you know, a few thousand dollars or something. I forget

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Speaker 2: what it was, but it was like more money than

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Speaker 2: we'd ever seen in our lives, and we're like, whoa,

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Speaker 2: that's amazing, let's do it. And our management facilitated, like

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Speaker 2: helped us figure it out with our lawyer and got

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Speaker 2: it on there. But it wasn't like a well planned thing.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, we would have had the song at

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Speaker 2: least somewhere to like download it, and it was nowhere.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you made a one album deal with Duel Tone.

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Speaker 1: You're still with Duel Tone. Yeah, so you must have

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Speaker 1: liked it after one album.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been great. I mean the year we worked

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Speaker 2: with them, the opening two years we worked with them,

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Speaker 2: it was they were a lot like us. They were

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Speaker 2: like the little engine that could. They won an award

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Speaker 2: for best Best Record Label with five or fewer employees.

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Speaker 2: They had I think four people, and they were they

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Speaker 2: got us like we had gotten on the Grammys and SNL.

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Speaker 2: We were just doing things that it doesn't normally happen

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Speaker 2: to a band that is not on a major. So

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Speaker 2: it was it's kind of like a fairy tale in

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Speaker 2: a way. And then we were basing a lot of

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Speaker 2: our decisions on we had heard from. We have a

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Speaker 2: really wise lawyer. His name is Richard Grabile, and he's

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Speaker 2: been doing it for a long time and he's kind

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Speaker 2: of like always I always turned to him when I

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Speaker 2: need really deep advice, and he was just like saying

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Speaker 2: that all these whether it's a major or an indie,

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Speaker 2: the person that signs you is your cheerleader. It's like

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Speaker 2: a coach who drafts a player. And if that coach

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Speaker 2: or that executive in a label gets fired or leaves,

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Speaker 2: the next guy that comes out comes after him isn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily going to be brooding for you or trying to

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Speaker 2: help you as much. It's so you was. His point

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Speaker 2: was always know who you're working with, and if you

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Speaker 2: do one record deals, there can't be that much instability

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Speaker 2: within that short period of time, so you can kind

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Speaker 2: of control a lot more of your destiny and how

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Speaker 2: much attention you're getting from your label, because sometimes you'll

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of stories of bands that sign

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Speaker 2: like a three record or five record deal and the

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Speaker 2: guy who championed them leaves pretty soon into it and

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Speaker 2: they're kind of shelved or ignored, not prioritized in any way.

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Speaker 2: So I think we were just mainly concerned about how

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Speaker 2: fair the deal was. We enjoyed the people at Dual Tone,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't I gotta give most of the credit

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Speaker 2: to Richard Grabil. He really helped us navigate these things

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Speaker 2: that we were just frankly just happy to not be,

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Speaker 2: you know, working side jobs, which was just happy to

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Speaker 2: be able to play music and get I was thirty

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Speaker 2: at the time, so I wasn't sure it was ever

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Speaker 2: gonna happen, So there was not a lot like being

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Speaker 2: taken for granted. But I feel like it helps to

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Speaker 2: be a little older because you can say no a

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Speaker 2: little easier because you've been the whole thing has been

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Speaker 2: a failure up to that point.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, you're in Colorado, Grables in New York. Ha'd

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Speaker 1: you hook up with him?

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Speaker 2: So there was a band called Rah Rah Riot and

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Speaker 2: there my neighbor happened to be friends with one of

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Speaker 2: the band member's parents, and that was their late that

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Speaker 2: was their lawyer. And so I remember I had my

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Speaker 2: wisdom teeth taken out and I could barely speak, and

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Speaker 2: I got this management contract offered to us, and I

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Speaker 2: sent Richard an email and I was like, please, are

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Speaker 2: you Are you gonna work with us? Because I had

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Speaker 2: I had there was the only lawyer I knew to contact.

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Speaker 2: It was the only person I had access to. And

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Speaker 2: he's like, I only listened to physical copy. So I

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Speaker 2: had to send him a CD. And then I kind

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Speaker 2: of said, hey, it's been a couple of weeks and

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Speaker 2: I just got this management offer. Can you please get

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Speaker 2: back to me one way or another? And he's like,

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Speaker 2: don't sign that and call me right now. And so

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Speaker 2: I called him and I could barely speak, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, redshird, I just got my wisdom teacher

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Speaker 2: like and he was so excited for us, and he

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Speaker 2: loved the music and he started helping us immediately. So

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Speaker 2: we luckily didn't sign some really bad management contract to

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Speaker 2: begin with, and he helped us kind of navigate it

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Speaker 2: all from from there from there on.

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Speaker 1: How many managers have the Lumineers had.

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Speaker 2: That type of manager, like I'd called a day to

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Speaker 2: day not a tour manager. We've had just two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the guy who will offered you the contract,

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Speaker 1: did you end up making a deal with him or

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Speaker 1: did you move on?

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Speaker 2: We did, but we amended some things on that that

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Speaker 2: had we not, it would have been a mess, you know,

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Speaker 2: to ever like break up with that manager. You know

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Speaker 2: there's like sunset clauses and things like that that they

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Speaker 2: put in there is like it helps them, but it

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Speaker 2: hurts the artists. You can't really move on very easily.

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Speaker 1: So how did it end with the first manager?

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Speaker 2: So Dave Minor was He's based out of Seattle. He was.

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Speaker 2: It was Dave Minor and Kristin Green and there were

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Speaker 2: a few others, but they were like the main sort

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Speaker 2: of managers entitle and Dave was like basically canceled. He

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Speaker 2: was like accused of something like double digit sexual harassment

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Speaker 2: charges that was in like twenty seventeen or eighteen, and

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Speaker 2: so it all happened like really fast. He called us

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Speaker 2: on like a Wednesday, he said, this articles coming out

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Speaker 2: and I want you to know about it first, and

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Speaker 2: he tried to kind of explain it and we were

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Speaker 2: like whoa. And then talk to the lawyers, and then

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Speaker 2: by Sunday we had let him go and as well

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Speaker 2: as like the whole management, we wanted a fresh start,

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Speaker 2: and and then we interviewed that I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you want to go there, but we interviewed like ten

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Speaker 2: more so after that, we're making our third record and

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Speaker 2: we're in the middle of it, and we scheduled like

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Speaker 2: nine or ten two to three hour meetings throughout the

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Speaker 2: course of like a week or week and a half

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Speaker 2: where they all flew to Denver and it was some

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Speaker 2: of the most amazing management groups and managers and you

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Speaker 2: could ask for because at that point we were like

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Speaker 2: proven goods to some people. So we met with like

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Speaker 2: az like just people I'd only heard about or see,

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Speaker 2: you know, seen on documentaries, and it was really it

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Speaker 2: was really cool to hear their their viewpoints on how

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Speaker 2: either they could help us or their philosophies about music

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Speaker 2: and how to essentially like help their artists. And we

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Speaker 2: ended up going with Activists, which is run by mainly

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Speaker 2: Bernie Cahill Matt maher mayor I think you say his name.

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Speaker 2: I always messed it up because I had a friend

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Speaker 2: grown up. They went by mar and anyway we like

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Speaker 2: and you know, an Anna cole Ender is also someone

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Speaker 2: if she ever listens to this, ione her to know.

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for. But but we ended up going

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Speaker 2: with them. But it was something where I didn't really

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Speaker 2: expect to go with them, you know, like if you

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Speaker 2: just base it purely on roster. There they were working

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Speaker 2: with Ded and Co and I'm just I had I'd

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Speaker 2: seen the dead and different iterations of them, and it

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Speaker 2: just felt like, well, we're not a jam band. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how they're gonna know how to deal with

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Speaker 2: us in terms of like that's such an improvisational band.

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Speaker 2: We're more like a writer kind of band. And then

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Speaker 2: when we heard them and we had a meeting with them,

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Speaker 2: it was just kind of like it felt like a

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Speaker 2: perfect fit in their personality and what they were trying

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Speaker 2: to do, and they had just had a person leave.

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Speaker 2: It was Zach Brown had left them to start his

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Speaker 2: own management group, so it was like he had left

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Speaker 2: and left this void that they were just all had

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Speaker 2: everyone kind of ready for us. They didn't have to

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Speaker 2: hire kind of many more people to make it work

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Speaker 2: with us, So it was kind of like good timing

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Speaker 2: for both both sides. But it was kind of surreal

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Speaker 2: because we were working on our third record and writing

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Speaker 2: it and then having these race sort of stressful meetings

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Speaker 2: with these you know, people who were all big deals

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Speaker 2: and we're having them in these shitty like I remember

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Speaker 2: we had meetings in this coffeehouse and then this dive bar,

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Speaker 2: and that was like we do back and forth each

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Speaker 2: day two hours and one or two hours in the other,

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Speaker 2: and it was just like you glaze over after a

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Speaker 2: certain amount of like hearing the same speeches over and over.

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Speaker 1: So since you were dealing with the top layer of management,

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Speaker 1: what'd you learn about visions, personalities? What was the experience

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Speaker 1: like and what were they selling you?

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Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure. It's like we made a T

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Speaker 2: shirt with all the things that were sett in every

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Speaker 2: meeting over and over as a joke, because there would

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Speaker 2: be like the thirty thousand foot view is are they

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Speaker 2: say boots on the ground or they'd say it was

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Speaker 2: very like there were some platitudes or cliches they would

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Speaker 2: throw out there. I think what I was really really

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Speaker 2: had a nose for or wanted to hear was what

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Speaker 2: they really thought they could do and had done with

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Speaker 2: their with bands in the past. Like I really enjoyed

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Speaker 2: speaking with the manager of the Black Keys. I thought

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Speaker 2: he was so thoughtful and he sort of customized things.

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Speaker 2: When he was talking about them and how he did things,

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Speaker 2: it was like, well, that's a real thoughtful or artistic

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Speaker 2: approach to helping a band grow. It's not just like

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Speaker 2: paint by number make them bigger. He was because I

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Speaker 2: was commenting, like I love one of their videos where

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Speaker 2: it's this dinosaur or it's just saying lyrics and it's

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Speaker 2: like a dinosaur puppet and then there's a girl at

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Speaker 2: the pool and it's I think it's called my ex

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Speaker 2: girl or my next girl, and you know, things like that,

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Speaker 2: and so I think, you know, he was an example

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Speaker 2: of someone we really wanted to work with. But the

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Speaker 2: the deal breaker for us was like he was a

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Speaker 2: one stop shop. He was a one man band. So

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Speaker 2: if the Black Keys were putting out a record and

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Speaker 2: we were putting out a record, there's only one of him,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we needed like we needed a team,

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Speaker 2: you know. So uh, But he was an example of

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Speaker 2: someone just like really impressed me as far as like

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Speaker 2: how he wasn't just treating every act the same, and

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Speaker 2: he had done his homework on us and had figured

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Speaker 2: out ways he thought we could do some things better.

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Speaker 2: So but it's a little bit like some people surprise

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Speaker 2: you with like how they just kind of show up

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Speaker 2: and they maybe rely more on their reputation than having

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Speaker 2: anything original to say, and that that could be That

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Speaker 2: was disappointing for me. But on the flip side, some

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Speaker 2: people really shock me with how much energy they put

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Speaker 2: into it and like thoughtfulness they had, because I think

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Speaker 2: that's what it takes. It's really not especially now more

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Speaker 2: than ever. You need to figure out how to make

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Speaker 2: an audience understand an artist in the way that the

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Speaker 2: artist feels authentic to otherwise it won't work. And you

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Speaker 2: have a lot of examples of I mean, I know,

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Speaker 2: I think you interviewed Billy strings On here. I met

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Speaker 2: him at Willie's ninetieth birthday, and just thinking about how

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Speaker 2: two decades ago, I don't know if he has the

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Speaker 2: same opportunity. And now, all of a sudden, you have

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Speaker 2: this person who's like a musical household name, and he's

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Speaker 2: playing a style of music that isn't necessarily always in vogue,

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Speaker 2: but people know about him. I think that's pretty great,

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Speaker 2: But that also takes either the artist or the management

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Speaker 2: with the artists to try to communicate that out to

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Speaker 2: the to the audience.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back a step. How'd you end up with

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Speaker 1: a manager in Seattle?

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Speaker 2: We were doing a residency in New York and me

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Speaker 2: and Jerry grew up you know, we ended up moving

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Speaker 2: to Denver, but we grew up in New Jersey and

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Speaker 2: we just we were, you know, a short drive into

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Speaker 2: New York City, and so we were. We did a

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Speaker 2: residency at the Living Room. It doesn't exist anymore. It closed,

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Speaker 2: but it was like this great, amazing club that in

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Speaker 2: New York that I want to say. It was like

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Speaker 2: near Chinatown. And it was the unique part about it

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Speaker 2: was they didn't charge a door fee on like almost

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Speaker 2: every other small club. They just passed the hat and

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Speaker 2: so it offered you a chance to play to strangers,

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Speaker 2: kind of like Rockwood Music Hall is now to play

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Speaker 2: the total stranger and have people just walk up and

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Speaker 2: discover your music. So we had done a residency I

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Speaker 2: believe it was in let's call it February of two

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Speaker 2: thousand and eleven, and we had or twenty ten, it

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Speaker 2: must have been, and we had we had five tuesdays.

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Speaker 2: I think there was happening to be five tuesdays in

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Speaker 2: that month. So the management flew out for one of

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Speaker 2: those and express this was the Seattle based management, that

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Speaker 2: they might be interested in working with us, and they

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Speaker 2: wanted to feel us out, and honestly, we didn't have

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Speaker 2: any other like suitors at that point. We were like whoa,

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Speaker 2: this is cool and then things and we were recording

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Speaker 2: all these songs at our home studio and like at

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Speaker 2: Jared's parents house at that time as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what did the first manager do to help your career?

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Speaker 2: I think he saw so Dave Minor was a is

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Speaker 2: a restaurant guy and then he got into music. So

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Speaker 2: I think he's he looked at it differently, which I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, some people like anything it can be a disadvantage,

351
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Speaker 2: but I think he's he just saw he saw certain

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Speaker 2: pillars that were important to like what we were trying

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Speaker 2: to do. So one of the things that he instilled

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Speaker 2: in me and maybe understand was that the whole, like

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Speaker 2: music as a whole, is like you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: a band, all of the things that you do beyond

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Speaker 2: the music. So the music is the most important thing,

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Speaker 2: and that's the true art. And then when you're out

359
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Speaker 2: and managers are trying to help you promote it basically

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Speaker 2: get it heard in some way and recognized and distinguished

361
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Speaker 2: from the ocean of other music that's out there. He

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Speaker 2: was really big on this idea that like it's all

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Speaker 2: an ecosystem. So you don't want you want your live

364
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Speaker 2: oh you should be wor on your live show. You

365
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Speaker 2: should be putting a lot of energy into sounding good

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Speaker 2: live and having a good show. But also you want

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Speaker 2: to if you want radio to play your songs, you

368
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Speaker 2: have to visit radio stations and you have to you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of like put in a lot of miles in

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Speaker 2: terms of doing that. You can interview with different publications.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that they're going to say nice things

372
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Speaker 2: about you, but you know, you kind of just you

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Speaker 2: have to put yourself out there in a way that

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Speaker 2: I thought it was just like you make good records

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Speaker 2: and people find them, and it was. It was very

376
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Speaker 2: apparent after that that touring will, will is and will

377
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Speaker 2: always be the most important thing you do beyond the

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Speaker 2: music you make. It's like, if you're not willing to

379
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Speaker 2: tour and tour hard, you're just kneecapping yourself immediately. So

380
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think part of him is you

381
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Speaker 2: made me understand that there is there's more to this

382
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Speaker 2: than just the making of the music, because I think

383
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Speaker 2: me and Ja were so dedicated as writers and we

384
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Speaker 2: just love writing music that we didn't really want to

385
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Speaker 2: have time. We didn't really want to do the other things,

386
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Speaker 2: and we had to learn how to do those things.

387
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Speaker 1: Okay, you have success, your a known quantity. What have

388
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Speaker 1: Bernie an activists brought to the table.

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Speaker 2: I think I think one of the things they did

390
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Speaker 2: immediately that it really impressed me was we were making

391
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Speaker 2: an album, our third album, we called three because it

392
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: was about it was our third album, but then it

393
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Speaker 2: became about these three generations, all focused on how this

394
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Speaker 2: this matriarch we called a Gloria, she was an alcoholic,

395
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Speaker 2: and how that kind of had this splintering effect, this

396
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Speaker 2: ripple effect through the family and how it affected each generation.

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Speaker 1: And wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we get to Bernie.

398
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Speaker 1: How did that become the theme of the album.

399
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Speaker 2: It was my mother in law just passed away. It

400
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Speaker 2: was about her, so like ever since I got together

401
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Speaker 2: with my wife, Brandy, that was in two thousand and ten,

402
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 2: we've been I mean, I wrote the song dead Sea

403
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Speaker 2: on our first album because she said, you never let

404
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Speaker 2: me sink down. You're like my dead Sea. Because she

405
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 2: was dealing with this really heavy thing and her dad

406
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Speaker 2: had died. My dad had died, so we bonded over that.

407
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Speaker 2: And then her mom was a severe alcoholic. She could

408
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Speaker 2: drink like a gallon of Tito's vodka day and was

409
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 2: arrested in different jails, and she was homeless and she

410
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Speaker 2: got taken into the emergency room ninety nine times in

411
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Speaker 2: one year. I mean, she's and we bought her house

412
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Speaker 2: at some point when we finally had a little bit

413
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Speaker 2: of money, and we had a victor from that house.

414
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Speaker 2: It was just sad, like the whole thing. So there

415
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 2: was nothing left for me to do in a way

416
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Speaker 2: except write about it. I was trying to process it,

417
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Speaker 2: and I asked Brandy, and then I asked her family

418
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Speaker 2: if that was okay in a way. Is that okay

419
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Speaker 2: with you guys. I'm not trying to, you know, make

420
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Speaker 2: you feel terrible buy us, but I'm this is how

421
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: I'm dealing with it. So we made this record, and

422
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Speaker 2: then we had made these music videos for previous records.

423
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Speaker 2: You know, the first album was kind of like they

424
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: were ambiguous videos. Second one, Cleopatra, had some really I

425
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 2: think interesting videos. This great director, Isaac Rove Shunkar, I

426
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Speaker 2: had to come up with this idea of like tying

427
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Speaker 2: a through line through all these songs. So on the

428
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Speaker 2: third record, we kind of wanted to ticket to like

429
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Speaker 2: a different, different level. And so I have to get

430
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Speaker 2: his name, he says, Kevin. I should know this. I

431
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: just haven't spoken to him in a little while. He's

432
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Speaker 2: the man, though, give me two seconds of just looking

433
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Speaker 2: up his name. Kevin Phillips is his name. So Kevin Phillips.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons why we hired him was because

435
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Speaker 2: he would often cast and work with people who look real.

436
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: They didn't look like models or Hollywood. It looked like

437
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: a documentary almost, and so we we wanted to do

438
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: a song every song had its own music video and

439
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: it formed a short film. So our activist comes in

440
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: is we tell them we want to do this. The

441
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: label wants to help us a little bit, but basically

442
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 2: Jared and I self finance the videos and it's a

443
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: lot of money and they they're supportive of this whole thing.

444
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: And the album is pretty dark. It's pretty in a

445
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: way depressing to certain people, but we really Jare's brother,

446
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: who's my friend, died of a heroin overdose at age nineteen,

447
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: so between him and Brandy's mom, there were things to

448
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: sort of sing about and feel like grounded in, and

449
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: so we made these videos and they were pretty like

450
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: unflinching in that they try to tell the story of

451
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 2: what was really happening with an addict and how it

452
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: affects a family, and they got they helped us. Activists

453
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: helped us along the way, and they got it into

454
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: They helped us get into Toronto International Film Festival, TIFF

455
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: and the Nashville and Geneva and a bunch of others,

456
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: and they kind of really helped us try to get

457
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: that thing seen as best they could. And that I

458
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: remember sending our manager, Bernie Jimmy Sparks, which is like

459
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: the longest song on the album and it's a story song,

460
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: and he was like super into it and supportive right away.

461
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: And that wasn't like a hit. That wasn't like at

462
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: all what a manager typically wants to hear, which is

463
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: like they hear a song that's short and fast, and

464
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: they hear dollar signs. He was in this long, like

465
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: six or seven minute story song. So I think in

466
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 2: a lot of ways we got off on good foot

467
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: good footing with them because they supported us wholeheartedly in

468
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: trying to get this three film scene and the album heard,

469
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: and it it eventually got optioned into making to be

470
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: made into like a TV show, and that's like still

471
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: in the works. We're gonna see what's gonna happen. But

472
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: like John Mark Valet was like involved in it and

473
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: he was gonna spearhead the whole thing, and then he

474
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: tragically passed away and so it's been tabled a little bit.

475
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: But that was all through this new activist management group

476
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: that like kind of got creative with how to help

477
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: us get this album heard.

478
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back and do a little backfilm. So

479
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: Jerror's brother died of a heroin overdose.

480
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, when he was nineteen. Yeah, so I grew up.

481
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: My brother is Ja's age, my little brother, and then

482
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: I was friends with Jerr's older brother's name is Josh,

483
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 2: and so I mean we were real close when we

484
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: were young, and we used to me and him, we

485
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 2: would take drawing classes together and spent a lot of time.

486
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: He'd come on family vacations with us and stuff like that.

487
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: And then, yeah, he had a lot of social anxiety

488
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: and he would sort of self medicate, I think, from

489
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: to try to deal with it, and it just kept escalating.

490
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: Like I was there when he took his first drink

491
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 2: and you could see like the way he drank was

492
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: to the point of it was to get out of

493
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: his head and get out of his body. And that

494
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: seemed like he only knew how to take it to eleven.

495
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: It wasn't like a middle ground, and he just I

496
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: think he kept searching for things to numb that feeling

497
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: of anxiety that it was really deep within him. And

498
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: Jerre was sixteen at the time, and it was a

499
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: lot for him. It would be a lot for anybody

500
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: in any age, but to be that young and to

501
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: lose your brother, it was like pretty pretty awful.

502
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: Is he something you can ever get over? I should

503
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: be asking him, but I'm talking to you.

504
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so. But I think it's something

505
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: you learn how to live with and try to try

506
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: to not It's not like you're trying to forget him

507
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: or forget it, but you're trying to like live with that,

508
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It seems like that's the

509
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: way Jarry's trying to deal with it. It's still remember him,

510
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: but it's I think it's it'll always be pretty pretty

511
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: raw and just under the surface.

512
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: It still exists in retrospect. Well two things. Did you

513
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: see it coming?

514
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: No, I mean not really. I was like eighteen when

515
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: he died, and he was nineteen, and he went to

516
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: rehab and sort of had to get pulled from our school.

517
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 2: And I remember dropping off like he played guitar and

518
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: so did I. And I remember dropping off like guitar

519
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: player magazine to him. Afew me and a buddy walk

520
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: went over to his house and he wasn't like allowed

521
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: to come to the door. And his mom, who I love, Kathy,

522
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: she she took the magazine. She said, thanks so much.

523
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: Joshua really loved these and so it was like the

524
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: sort of last time I saw him, but I didn't

525
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: even get to see him, but we kind of knew

526
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: something was a lot more serious than we realized. And

527
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: then but at the same time, you're so I was

528
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: so young and ignorant of like you just feel invincible,

529
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: so you're you don't think anything bad's gonna happen like that.

530
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: So we're in New Jersey.

531
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: Did grow up a little town called Ramsey, New Jersey.

532
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: It's near you know, it's funny. I think Springsteen has

533
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: a reference to mahwa and Johnny in ninety nine, right,

534
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: and it's right, that's our neighboring town.

535
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: I certainly went to college with people from Mahwah. So

536
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: what was the town like growing up.

537
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: It's a tiny town, fifteen thousand people, suburb, a lot

538
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: of commuters into New York City. I'd say like middle class,

539
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: upper middle class. It's like neighbors to the town that

540
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: The Sopranos is set in, Like it's it's kind of

541
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: like the Surprise is the real like wealthy area in

542
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: that and that was Upper Saddle River kind of like

543
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: near us. It's an interesting place to grow up. It

544
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: was a really for me idyllic place because you were

545
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: in this what felt like safe place, like a little

546
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: safety bubble, but you're on the doorstep of New York,

547
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 2: where it feels like anything can happen, and there's all

548
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: these all this it's known as the greatest city in

549
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: the world, and you're right next to it, but you're

550
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: kind of out of the madness as a kid, but

551
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: you have access to it. So I thought it was

552
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: a beautiful place to live.

553
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: And at what point did you start going into New

554
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: York alone?

555
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: It was like nineteen twenty something like that. We went

556
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: into show, I mean my first show. I have a

557
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: tattoo of it on my arm. Is like me and Josh,

558
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: Jerry's brother, went to go see Bob Dylan and Joni

559
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: Mitchell at Maison Square Garden when we were like fifteen.

560
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: And then I remember I went and saw Neil Young

561
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: solo at the theater there when I was sixteen. So

562
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: I went and saw shows really young. But as far

563
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: as playing shows, we weren't playing shows until probably like

564
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: twenty one.

565
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: And what did your parents do for a living.

566
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: My mom was a preschool teacher and my dad was

567
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: a psychologist.

568
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: And are they still with us?

569
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: My mom is my dad passed away in two thousand and.

570
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Seven, and were they together when he passed?

571
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what was it like.

572
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: Having a psychologist for a father?

573
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: You know, it was perfect for me. I was a

574
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: sensitive kid who had a lot of feelings. I could,

575
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: you know, how to work through a lot of them.

576
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: And he was a great listener. I don't think like

577
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: doctors and like any other profession, not all of them

578
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 2: are created equal. I just he was particularly good at

579
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: what he did. You know. He grew up in a

580
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: family where his brother went to Vietnam and two weeks

581
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: in he weirdly he volunteered to go to Vietnam. Two

582
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: weeks in he got killed. And that was his oldest brother,

583
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: and he had there were four brothers altogether, so he

584
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: was the he was the second youngest. My brother was sorry,

585
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: my dad was, and so when that happened, it kind

586
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: of just shattered the family. It made the parents go

587
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: pretty numb. And so my dad was was I think,

588
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: pretty dead set on trying to make people connect and

589
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: feel again, and that was one of his like special

590
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: powers or something like. He came home from college and

591
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: his family still talks about how he he hugged everyone

592
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: in the family, mom, Dad, all the brothers, and he

593
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: told them he loved them, and that was the first

594
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: time they had ever done that, and he was the

595
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: one to sort of crossed the picket line of that.

596
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: So I think he was a very to me, a

597
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: very interesting guy because he also before that got in

598
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: a lot of fights as a kid. He was a

599
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: really tough dude, and then came back and found this

600
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: new part of himself. I found out he could be

601
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: a really good listener, and so he had his duality

602
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: of like we all knew he was a badass and tough,

603
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: but he was really good at just holding the space

604
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: for someone like a teenager like me at the time

605
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: when I was growing up and listening. So I could

606
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: confess anything to him. And the rule was like I

607
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: wouldn't really get in trouble necessarily. It was it was

608
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: a bigger, much bigger sin to lie. So if I

609
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: told them I smoked weed or drank, they were like,

610
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: all right, well, keep it a moderation. But like if

611
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: I kept something from them, it's like, what are you doing?

612
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: Just tell me what you're doing, you know. So honesty

613
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: was encouraged and and I felt like I had a

614
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: real listener in my life. And I've had a therapist

615
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 2: since then with the band and Independent, and they they

616
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: are not all the same. So I feel like, looking back,

617
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: it could be really annoying to have a therapist as

618
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: a parent, but in my case it was it was

619
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: really nice.

620
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: So how many kids in the family?

621
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: We had three? I had an older I have an

622
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: older sister and a younger brother.

623
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: And how did they co pandle your success?

624
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: They do well with it. I mean, I think they

625
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: were just worried because I was almost I was basically

626
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: thirty when I got signed. So like I remember going

627
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: to my brother's like college family weekend, and I had

628
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: long hair, and I was this dude who like worked

629
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: at restaurants and in that awkward, creepy like you're twenty five,

630
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: twenty six and you're like pursuing something that at a

631
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: family weekend when you're meeting other families and they're like, hey, buddy,

632
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: what are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, musician,

633
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: you just come across like an idiot to a lot

634
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: of people, or misunderstood or just kind of outcasted. But

635
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: I felt like they were really supportive of me, and uh,

636
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: I think they were very secure in who they were,

637
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: so when it blew up, there were moments when my

638
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: brother would tease me, my little brother and say, like,

639
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: you know, we went to like they'd get together and

640
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: my mom would be like playing videos of me like

641
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: at some show, and he's like, West isn't even here?

642
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: Can we just like hang out? And I think that

643
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: I think that's like eased off, and my mom is

644
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: cool down with that and listen to my little brother.

645
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: But I think she was she was just excited because

646
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: I think she was relieved. But I think there it's

647
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: a testament to them because they're both pretty like accomplished

648
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: in their own right and and do their own thing,

649
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: and it can be happy for me, and I'm obviously

650
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 2: really happy for them, and so they've been like a

651
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: big support system through it, through it all.

652
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: Do you know why your name Wesley?

653
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: I gotta some sort of genealogy thing for my uncle.

654
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 2: It it was it was in the family, but not

655
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 2: much beyond it was somebody's middle name. It was either

656
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: gonna be Keith Wesley or Wesley Keith Schultz. And it

657
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: became I like Wesley better than Keith, So it worked

658
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: out okay.

659
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: So you're growing up, you say you're a sensitive kid,

660
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: good in school, bad in school, athlete, loan or what

661
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: kind of kid were you?

662
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 2: All of those things. I was pretty good athletically, depending

663
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: on the sport, so I fit in that way. I

664
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: was good in school as far as like I knew

665
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: how to I knew how to pass classes and get

666
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: decent grades without having to try extremely hard, like I

667
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: knew when I had to try, Like, you know, you

668
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: read the cliff notes, you don't have to read the

669
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: whole book. You know. That came later in my life

670
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: when I started actually reading books. But I was like

671
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: very comfortable being alone and missing parties. But I was

672
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: also lucky that I kind of navigated between different groups

673
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: because I was like into athletics but not really and

674
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: I was like, I felt like I could hang with

675
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: a lot of different social groups, but I was never

676
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: really fully with one of them. And then I was

677
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 2: like I felt pretty alone a lot of I don't

678
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: know why, but I always had this deep sense of

679
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: longing and loneliness, like just in a temperament kind of way.

680
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: So I was always writing poems and poetry and rhyming.

681
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: I always loved doing that, And you know what began

682
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: is drawing. Me and Josh were drawing, and that was

683
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: the kind of solitary thing. It became writing, and then

684
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: it became playing guitar and stuff, so I would say.

685
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: And then in school I was like I got in

686
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 2: trouble for behavioral stuff, like, you know, just goofing off

687
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: in class and being a bit of a having making

688
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: my friends laugh. And maybe I remember I was supposed

689
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: to be on some honorable thing, but they kept me

690
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: off because of my behavior. It was like my mom

691
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: was so mad. But in a way, it was pretty innocent.

692
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: It was more like you know, telling I didn't like.

693
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: I didn't like when any adult was condescending, so I

694
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: or if I feel like I was being forced to

695
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: do something, so I would act out against that. But

696
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: it was overall pretty innocent.

697
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So now people around the world know your name,

698
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: you played it tens of thousands. How does that help

699
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: or not help with your loneliness.

700
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 2: Well, in some ways, it gives you access to really

701
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: interesting people. I've heard that said, and I agree. It's

702
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 2: like I've met some people that you just get to

703
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: meet them. You don't have to. They're if they're on

704
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: the inside of fame so to speak, and quotes there

705
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: and they feel like you get that there's less to

706
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: talk about in that zone of life and they can

707
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: just be a human being, and I crave that. Like

708
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: if I remember I got to meet Chappelle, or shit,

709
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: i've met a comedian I really like today's Shane Gillis,

710
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: Or there's different people in comedy world, or in let's

711
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: say restaurants, Like we joked that the chefs are like

712
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: the rock stars of our world because we're it's you

713
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: get to meet all these different people that are excited

714
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: about what you do and you're excited about what they do,

715
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 2: and it's a beautiful way to share. I would say

716
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: we're we're in a unique position as as the lumineers

717
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: because no one really knows what we look like on

718
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: a large scale, or knows my name, or they know

719
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: our songs. Our songs might be famous, but our our

720
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: personal lives have been I think we got grandfathered in

721
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 2: to like this generation that we weren't. They didn't ask

722
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: that of us, and they no longer want that from

723
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: us anyway. So like if I could be totally wrong here,

724
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: but I just went and saw day. You know a

725
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: few months ago, and like, I don't think whether they

726
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 2: have a TikTok account or not, it really matters. It's

727
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: like it's green day. And I feel like in some

728
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: ways those if you're an older artist and you start

729
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: to try to keep up with the jones as it

730
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: can be awkward anyway. So just like another, I like

731
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 2: the mystery of some of the bands I grew up

732
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: listening to, and I feel like our fans hopefully don't

733
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: mind that there's a little bit of a layer of

734
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: mystery there, because it is like annoying to me that

735
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: if if if I was to be asked to be

736
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 2: a broadcaster full time of my life and my personality

737
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: and hey, I'm over here with the it's just I

738
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: can't do that. It would I would suck at it

739
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: and know one it would make this a lot less fun,

740
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: you know. It's like all all the perks of like

741
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: So I think I think basically like most of it,

742
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: I never really cared that much about. But I love

743
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: getting to know people like that. You don't get to

744
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: see that side of them that often.

745
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: So at what point do you pick up a musical instrument?

746
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: How old are you?

747
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: It was like sixteen fifteen sixteen. I mean I was

748
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: playing trumpet, you know, you know, in school, and I

749
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: remember that. I I remember the guy telling me you

750
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 2: were verbe. We didn't get along that well, and he said,

751
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: I want to put you first chair, and you're the

752
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: best trumpet player, but you don't practice your scales and

753
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: I can't tell the rest of the students that it's

754
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: okay to do that. And I was like, well, I

755
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: could play the songs better than anyone else. He's like,

756
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, and I was like, I don't agree with this,

757
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 2: and I just like walked down. And I always felt

758
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: like it was like, well, what's the point of this.

759
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: I thought it was to play the song? So I

760
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: knew I had like some level of acumen when it

761
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: came to that and like remembering lyrics and holding a

762
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: melody and things like that. But I didn't really pick

763
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: up a real instrument again until I was sixteen and

764
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: I played started playing guitar.

765
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're growing up up. It's the MTV era. To

766
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: what degree were you watching MTV into those acts into

767
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: popular music?

768
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: I didn't have cables, so I wasn't watching it. I

769
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: wish I did. I would say I was really, really

770
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: much more into My dad had all these. He had

771
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: a few tapes that were in rotation in our car,

772
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: and we take like long road trips, so it was

773
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: mostly that. To be honest, I never music videos were

774
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: an exotic thing. I didn't really see many of them

775
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: growing up. I remember seeing like Soul Asylum, Runaway Train.

776
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: That's like one of my most vivid memories.

777
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: So what tapes was your father playing.

778
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: He had the Cars Greatest Hits. He's the big Greatest

779
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: Hits guy. He had the Cars, Billy Joel Talking Heads,

780
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: and then he had this Leonard Cohen The Future album.

781
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: I think those were like the only ones we ever heard,

782
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: and they were great.

783
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so why did you start playing the guitar?

784
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: I saw? So my brother in law is now he's

785
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: a Green Beret colonel, but at the time he was

786
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: just entering military school at West Point and.

787
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: It would slow down a little bit. So you met

788
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: your wife at a very young age.

789
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: Oh so, no, this is my I'm sorry, my sister's husband. Now.

790
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 2: At the time, it was their boyfriend girlfriend and he

791
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: was going to West Point. So they knew each other

792
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 2: in high school. They dated and then he was going

793
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 2: to West Point and Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds came

794
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: through and did their duo thing, and he got me

795
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: ticket and I went and saw it with him, and

796
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: my mind was blown and I felt like it was

797
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: watching like a magic trick. And I soon after saw

798
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: that Neil Young solo show, and again I was like,

799
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: how do you do that? What is that? And then

800
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: I started playing guitar and within a year or two,

801
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: I think I started playing guitar in like ninety seven

802
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: or ninety eight, and and I have an old CD

803
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: of like Christmas of ninety nine. I made my dad

804
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: loved if you made him gifts, like he didn't want

805
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: you to buy anything, so I made him a home

806
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: recorded like covers album with actually with some originals on

807
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 2: it that I still have, like a CD where I

808
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: recorded on that really like the tiny little mic that

809
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: they used to give you with a computer, you know,

810
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: just a shitty little But I started playing because because

811
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: I saw these shows. I would say, I couldn't believe

812
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: how entranced I was by these shows. And then I

813
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: remember just it reminds me of Howard Stern because he

814
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: talks about watching his dad with the radio and how

815
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: he just was fascinated by that and wanted to be

816
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: that to his dad. And I couldn't relate more to

817
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 2: the idea that I would sit there on these drives

818
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: with my dad and he'd be like hitting me in

819
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: the arm and be like, listen to this. Listen, like

820
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: listen to what playing a Warren Yvonne song and be

821
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: like like and start laughing, that's hilarious, or talking heads,

822
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: you know. He focused a lot on the lyrics, and

823
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: I think because he was a shrink, he loved when

824
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: people were right on the edge of like and they

825
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: were so honest with what they were saying. And I

826
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: remember and then I remember him saying about Billy Joel,

827
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: like listen, all these styles this guy could do, and uh,

828
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, like, wouldn't it be cool if he

829
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: thought that of me, Like not consciously, but just like

830
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: it was just like, this is my hero and his

831
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 2: hero is in that coming out of that speaker. And

832
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: I think that really drove home for me. Like, as

833
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: I reflected back on it, I was like, why was

834
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: I so fascinated by this? It's like, well, because I

835
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 2: saw this dude that I he was my whole world

836
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: and that was his whole world. Was this music, even

837
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: though he wasn't like a musical guy himself. You know,

838
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: he didn't sing or anything, but he was just into it.

839
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you're like in high school, you started playing the

840
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: guitar acoustic electric, You take lesson what songs you're learning,

841
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: playing out what does it look like?

842
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was acoustic guitar first. My mom had

843
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: an acoustic guitar, which I actually reference on the new

844
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: song Automatic. H I said, I never say my mom,

845
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. The new song, same old song on Automatic

846
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: has the reference to her guitar geting stolen because I say,

847
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: I'll never see my mom's guitar again. It was this

848
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: like Yamaha nip On Ghaki, like they made him in

849
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: Japan FG one, which is like a beater of a guitar,

850
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: but it's amazing guitar for if people want to buy,

851
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 2: they call it a poor man's Martin and it's just

852
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 2: this great guitar. It's just not good for touring because

853
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: it'll break down. But I had that. So its acoustic guitar.

854
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 2: And my first song was a Dave Matthews song. It

855
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: was like when I'm walking by the wall, it was

856
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: just I forget the name of it, but I remember

857
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 2: open for him and wanting to play it for him.

858
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: It's like but U And the next one, one of

859
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: the ones soon after that was Tangerine by led Zeppelin.

860
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: It was like a lot of I learned Dave Matthews

861
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: because I felt like that was like some of the

862
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: hardest rhythm guitar to play while singing, and I kind

863
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: of knew that, so I was like, if I can

864
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: learn this, then there's a lot of other songs I

865
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: can learn that are going to feel easier than this,

866
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: because he had a lot of stretches and really intricate stuff,

867
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: and I think it was free fallin'. I have that.

868
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: I took lessons for a few months and that's all

869
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: you really need, and I have the early lesson book.

870
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 2: I saved it all these years. He taught me basic

871
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: scales and basic chords and some blue stuff, just stuff

872
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 2: to like I said, just give me a really basic

873
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: foundation and then I'll just hopefully take it from there.

874
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: And because I didn't like having to do it, but

875
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: it kept me going, you know, for the beating part

876
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: of it. And then soon after I just found myself

877
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: like wanting to write songs because I love writing poetry.

878
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: So I've heard John Mellencamp describe, you know, his guitar

879
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: playing as a vehicle for the lyrics, and I always

880
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: felt like, I just really love the lyrics in the music,

881
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: and the guitar and any instrument was just a way

882
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: to put that on put that out there.

883
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: And at what point did you start playing with other people?

884
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: Pretty soon after I was probably like seventeen when I

885
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: tried joining a couple of different bands in town and

886
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 2: we played some talent shows, and I remember played first

887
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 2: time I ever played with a band. We played Hotel, California,

888
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: and I said, I have like footage of it. It's hilarious,

889
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: but I was so scared going into it. And then

890
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: unlike sports, where if I was scared going into it

891
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 2: and I took the court, it's like a lot of

892
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 2: bad things would happen with sports, a lot of things

893
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: that like didn't go the way you practiced it. With music,

894
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: for some reason, it went better, and it was like

895
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: felt locked in and that those nerves were no longer

896
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: like hurting me. They were like creating this, this better,

897
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: better thing coming out of me, which was like a

898
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: totally unique feeling because I had really love sports growing

899
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: up and now would get out there and just like

900
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 2: try way too hard, and for some reason, music it

901
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: was just different.

902
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: So you join these bands or the bands playing gigs,

903
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: or you're just rehearsing.

904
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: Mostly rehearsing, mostly trying to do home recording, occasionally do

905
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 2: a talent show, occasionally play a coffee shop, but nothing

906
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: like nothing's nothing too crazy or impressive.

907
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: So you see Neil Young, you go to these shows,

908
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: you get inspired. At what point does the thought because

909
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: I want to do this for a living.

910
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: Pretty early on, I mean I was, I was ending

911
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: high school and I told my parents I didn't want

912
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 2: to go to college because they were very dead set

913
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: on it. They had saved up and my grandparents had

914
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: saved up so that I could go to school. And

915
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: I was like, you're wasting your money, like I don't

916
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: want to do this, and they were like, well, we

917
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: really want you to do this, so if you do this,

918
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: like we're not going to financially support you, but we

919
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 2: won't slam you for pursuing music once you finish college.

920
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: And I think they thought, if we give him four years,

921
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: he's moved on from every obsession he's ever had. Because

922
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: I used to be kind of obsessed with things. He's

923
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: moved on from every one of those, so what's the

924
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: odds are He's just he's gonna get that out of

925
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: a system and then he's going to find something that's

926
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 2: more steady work, you know, more like a normal job.

927
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: So you don't go to college, no, So I tried

928
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: to convince them. My dad had a good pitch. He's like,

929
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: I want you to go away to school, and I

930
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: want you to like find yourself outside of this town,

931
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 2: outside of this family, and just get through it. Like,

932
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: just do it. It's not a punishment. You'll have a

933
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 2: good time. But like I always felt like I was behind,

934
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, like I could be in the real world

935
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: trying to make it in this and you're asking me

936
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: to do that. So then when I got to school,

937
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: I went to the University of Richmond, where my sister

938
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 2: had gone, and uh, I started playing a lot there

939
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: and I remember, like I kind of cringe looking back,

940
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: but there was like a courtyard with a gazebo, and

941
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: I would sit in the gazebo and it like I

942
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: would sing at the buildings of dorms. Like, thinking back,

943
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: it was so obnoxious, but I think I just wanted

944
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: to get this self consciousness out of my system. So

945
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 2: I would just play, like for an hour. I remember

946
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: people yelling out the window was like shut up, you know, like,

947
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 2: and I would just keep playing. And then I played

948
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 2: at the and played the mics, and I just started

949
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 2: playing a lot and formed. I formed a band. I

950
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: called it like Wesley, Keith and Co. And I had

951
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: different people coming and going, but most of that there

952
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: were I remember I had the biggest I would say,

953
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 2: the biggest event that happened to me, or the biggest

954
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 2: thing that happened to me that was really serendipitous, or

955
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: it was like the reason I was supposed to go

956
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: to school to that school was In college at All,

957
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: I met this guy, Charles Arthur, who's an incredible musician,

958
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: and he was an adjunct professor there where he gave

959
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: lessons and I took lessons with him. I decided, you know,

960
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: I know how to do rhythm guitar. I want to

961
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 2: learn how to solo. It'd be so cool if I

962
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: could solo. And I went to take lessons with him

963
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: and we sat down and we almost never picked up

964
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: an instrument. We just talked about music and the approached

965
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: to it. And I didn't really learn how to solo,

966
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: but I learned how to write songs with him. And

967
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: there is a minimalism to what he brought to the table.

968
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: He was like, how do you say the most with

969
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: the least? So you know that old that old adage

970
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: is like, if I had more time, I would have

971
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: written you a shorter letter. It's like Mark Twain apparently

972
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: said that. I don't know if you did, but it's

973
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: it's like every note should matter, and every word you

974
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: say and every and he taught me just how to

975
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 2: create tension and then relieve that tension. It was a

976
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: very incredible experience just talking music with this guy that

977
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: I still keep in touch with and we still talk often.

978
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 2: And whenever I get a new album, I said it

979
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: to him, and whenever I make a new album, I

980
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: mean and whenever I get a gold record, I send

981
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: him a copy with his name on it as like

982
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: a thank you for showing me how to write music.

983
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 2: And he lives at he lives still in Richmond, and

984
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: this is a guy who plays in a lot of bands.

985
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 2: But it was funny because he plays in some wedding

986
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 2: bands and he's like, you fucker. I got to play

987
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: your songs now at these ways. It's so good.

988
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: So how did you finish college? Yeah?

989
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 2: I finished college in five and then I came home

990
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 2: planning to just leave, you know, I was gonna come home,

991
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 2: kind of collect my things and then find a city

992
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: that I felt like I could work side jobs and

993
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: play music. Maybe New York, I didn't know. And then

994
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: soon after I met I had known jer but I

995
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: really kind of met him at that time where a

996
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: friend of mine was playing drums that I'd played with

997
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 2: a lot, and I was like, let's jam, I want

998
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: to play some gigs in the city. And then he's like, okay,

999
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 2: can jare come? And I was like, I don't. I

1000
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 2: don't really want anybody else there. This is a pain

1001
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: in the ass to try to coordinate everybody's schedule. And

1002
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: then he's like, come on, come on, just let it

1003
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 2: and he came in and we kind of hit it

1004
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: off musically, and that that other guy justin ended up,

1005
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: you know, having kids, getting married and all this stuff,

1006
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 2: so he was he couldn't can continue to pursue music,

1007
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: and Jared and I kind of just stuck with it.

1008
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 2: And at the time my dad was sick. He had

1009
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: like a three plus year about with cancer, and so

1010
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: I was staying home for him in a way, and

1011
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,919
Speaker 2: I was and I was staying home to play music

1012
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: with Jerr, but I really didn't want to be home,

1013
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: and so there was there was a lot of pride

1014
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: that was it hurt my pride be you know, past

1015
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 2: a certain age. But I stayed and it was kind

1016
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: of good looking back in terms of we were able

1017
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 2: to do a lot of experimenting home recording and just

1018
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: with no overhead, you know, no money being spent, just

1019
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: recording in this anonymous way, driving into the city, constantly

1020
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 2: gigging and just seeing that side of it before we

1021
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: really got a break, and you know, any spotlight was

1022
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 2: on ut, which is I think important for every band

1023
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 2: because I think the nightmare scenario would be that you

1024
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 2: come up with a style and a song that you

1025
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: really hate, everybody loves it and they want more of

1026
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 2: that from you, and you you don't even want to

1027
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: play it. So I think by the time I remember,

1028
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: something really shifted where I was in this Brooklyn apartment

1029
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: and I was I ended up writing like a ton

1030
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,479
Speaker 2: of really good songs in this really dark period living

1031
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 2: in Bushwick where, But I like O Hey and Flowers

1032
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: and your Hair and all these songs. But I remember

1033
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 2: writing Flowers and sending it to Jare, And the great

1034
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: thing about Jerry is he hears it and he goes,

1035
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: I love that car alarm in the back the background,

1036
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: so he's trying to recreate that. And but I remember

1037
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 2: playing that for my little brother, and my little brother

1038
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 2: has always been supportive, but he's not effusive in praise,

1039
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: like he's not going to tell you something's great if

1040
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 2: he doesn't believe it. And it was really sweet because

1041
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: that was the first song I'd shared with him a

1042
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: ton of songs. That was the first time he said

1043
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: it's a really good song. Like it was kind of

1044
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: surprised him. And you know, whenever you do something like

1045
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: that and you have someone in your life that doesn't bullshit,

1046
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 2: it was really a moment to be like, yeah, I

1047
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 2: thought it was good too. And from Flowers came Classic Girls,

1048
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: came Stubborn, Love, came out Hey, came Dead Seat. They

1049
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 2: were just pouring submarines. They were all just like pouring

1050
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: out of us. But before that, it was like the

1051
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: pipe was clogged, and all of a sudden, it was

1052
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 2: just like boom, stuff started pouring out of us, and

1053
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: none of it was that similar to the last song.

1054
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: So it was a really strange, cool time of like

1055
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: we crossed over some hump.

1056
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: Okay, what were you doing for work at that point?

1057
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 2: At that point, I was working at a butcher shop,

1058
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: a deli butcher shop. You know. We'd like sliced meats

1059
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: and ground the beef and like triple ground it and

1060
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: then like weigh it and work behind the counter doing

1061
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 2: the lunch meets. And then I worked next door to

1062
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: that place at a Starbucks, and then I worked at

1063
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: a our local country club restaurant that I had gotten

1064
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: fired from five years, probably a different part of it.

1065
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: So I just found I found all these different jobs

1066
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 2: I could do, uh, and I worked all those kind

1067
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 2: of like at the same time, like in little spurts,

1068
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 2: you know.

1069
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: So when did you guys decide it was a duo

1070
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: or the two of you were going to be together.

1071
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 2: I think it just kind of happened naturally, like people

1072
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: would come and then they'd peel off. You know. We

1073
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: had our first guy, Justin, who was amazing, you know,

1074
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: life just kind of happens. And then our next guy, Dave,

1075
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 2: he became a school teacher, and I remember we were

1076
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 2: we told him like he described it as like he

1077
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: thought we were being delusional in retrospect because we were like,

1078
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 2: are you sure you want to do this? You sure

1079
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: want to leave? Like he's like, I'm getting this teaching joby,

1080
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 2: what are you guys talking about? And and the next guy,

1081
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 2: Joe bran Support, who's really accomplished musician in his own

1082
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: right to this day still records and plays music and

1083
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 2: he's insanely talented, he peeled off. So we had these

1084
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 2: people like a third member come and go, third member

1085
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 2: come and go, and it finally just was easier to

1086
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: look at it more like, Okay, we're the we're the nucleus,

1087
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: and anyone else who joins is is probably gonna leave,

1088
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: so let's just like do it in the house. Let's

1089
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: figure out ways to do this ourselves, or just view

1090
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 2: it that way. So then we renamed the band Wesley

1091
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 2: Jeremiah as like a an idea. It didn't really stick,

1092
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: but we always liked the name. We always like a

1093
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 2: band for some reason. That was our generation was like bands.

1094
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: So we were we were, you know, romantic, We were

1095
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: romantic about the word band. Like we thought it was

1096
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: so cool to be in a band, which is why

1097
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: we ended up naming it the Lumineers. But that was

1098
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 2: even that was an accident. That was like a we

1099
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 2: were at an open mic in Jersey City and there

1100
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: was like an MC who was running the open mic

1101
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: and he's like, up next, we have the Lumineers and

1102
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 2: we got on stage were like, we're not the Lumineers,

1103
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 2: but uh, we're Wesley Jeremiah. Nice to meet you guys,

1104
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: and and then I was like I kind of like

1105
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 2: that name. And then that was an instrumental band, and

1106
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: then they broke up and we just kind of adopted

1107
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: the name, and then we were certain it was going

1108
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: to have to get taken away because it was like

1109
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: a dental veneer company. And our lawyer was like, no,

1110
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: it's unrelated. It's not the same you know Lane or something,

1111
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 2: so it's yours. Like whoa, this is crazy. So it

1112
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 2: kind of stuck. But it's something that the band name

1113
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: is a hard thing to arrive at because they all

1114
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: sound stupid.

1115
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: When you first Sam, Okay, you come home, you're living

1116
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: at home for three years, you're woodshitting with Jerry. At

1117
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,959
Speaker 1: what point are you guys playing out and saying we're

1118
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: trying to make it.

1119
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 2: Almost immediately, like that was my mentality because I was

1120
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: twenty one and I was like, we're going to go

1121
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: into the city. I remember played The Bitter End a

1122
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: ton that was like a big one for us, and

1123
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 2: then we got into Rockwood Music Hall, the living room,

1124
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: this space called the bag It In. There was a

1125
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: ton of them in the Lower East Side in New

1126
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: York that we were playing, and it was just kind

1127
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: of trying to cut our teeth and get experience in

1128
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: doing all that and hoping someone would notice, and no

1129
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 2: one really did. I mean, that city's wild. And when

1130
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 2: I was I decided to move there. And Jay was

1131
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 2: still finishing school at William Patterson and so I decided

1132
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 2: to move there.

1133
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: And like.

1134
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: I was like, man, how do these kids who are

1135
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: here in bands make it work? And I realized pretty

1136
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 2: quickly that all the kids who are making it work

1137
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: there were like trust fund kids. It wasn't like there

1138
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 2: was no way to really live in that city unless

1139
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: you were the son of a millionaire or the daughter

1140
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: of a billionaire or something. It was like you had

1141
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: to have some sort of backing and we didn't have.

1142
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: I didn't have that. So I was like there for

1143
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: a little while, taking it really seriously, but also doing

1144
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 2: the math and realizing that all the time I used

1145
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: to have when I was living at home to write

1146
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 2: music with Ja and record that was all going away.

1147
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: And I was joking that I got really good at

1148
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 2: making hot and cold drinks, but I was not getting

1149
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: better at music because I was a barista and I

1150
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 2: was a bartender, and I was all these things that

1151
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 2: I didn't care about and I so I was like,

1152
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 2: I'd be better off in Buffalo, New York versus New York,

1153
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 2: New York because I had no time for the thing

1154
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 2: that I knew I had to put all this energy into.

1155
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 2: So we moved to Denver just because a couple of

1156
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: friends were like, this is what the rent costs. And

1157
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 2: I remember being on a subway platform and Jar wasn't

1158
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: gonna do it. He was like, all right, I'm gonna

1159
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go start a studio with Joe Brandsport, and

1160
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 2: I was like, I kind of just gave him my

1161
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: sales pitch on why if we try to make it

1162
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 2: work remotely it's not gonna work, then what do you

1163
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: You can always go back and make that studio. But

1164
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 2: you'll never have this this chance, you know, and he,

1165
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 2: like God bless me, he took the he you know,

1166
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: he bit the pitch and we went and we drove out,

1167
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: and Denver was a much better place at that time

1168
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 2: to try to be making it.

1169
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: Okay, you're playing in New York. How often are you playing?

1170
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: And what is the experience. It's not like the band

1171
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: has a brand name. You're playing to people who don't

1172
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: care usually. What was it like?

1173
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't name ourselves Lumineers until we moved to Denver, honestly,

1174
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: and that was two thousand and nine, end of two

1175
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, So between two thousand and five and

1176
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 2: nine we were just going under different band names. And

1177
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 2: the thing was you always had your friends at those shows,

1178
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: somebody hopefully, but you didn't really have anybody new because

1179
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 2: the way a lot of those clubs work is that

1180
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 2: they take any money from your fans, who are if

1181
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 2: their fans are friends, mostly friends. They take their ten

1182
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: dollars door fee or whatever, they sit them down. They

1183
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 2: make them buy drinks at a comedy club, you know,

1184
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 2: one drink or two drink minimum, and when your set's over,

1185
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: they kicked them out. They're not even allowed to stay.

1186
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: So it is a vicious circuit that you get exposed to.

1187
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 2: But there was something exciting about it, and there were

1188
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 2: glimmers of hope, but overall it was like pretty it was.

1189
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: It was all about just like wanting to make it

1190
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 2: any way. It's like if you were in a movie

1191
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: but you were an extra. You know, it's like you're

1192
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: not really no one gives a fuck whether they're or not,

1193
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 2: but you feel like you're part of the movie. And

1194
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 2: that really mattered to us at the time. And then

1195
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 2: I remember my buddy who was my roommate, Matt Maddy Collins.

1196
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: He said to me it was like the Goodwill hunting

1197
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 2: scene where he's like kind of like, I love you, man,

1198
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 2: but if you're still hearing five years, I'm going to

1199
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: fucking kill you. Like he said, you have the same

1200
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 2: five or ten people coming to every show and that's fine, man,

1201
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: but like nothing's changing here, Like you need something needs

1202
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 2: to change, you know, And he's like, I believe in you,

1203
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 2: but you gotta like do something. Something's gotta give, and

1204
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 2: that's something given. Was definitely moving somewhere else. So we

1205
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: we took the plunge based on just what became what

1206
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 2: felt like a Merry go Round where you just or

1207
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 2: twilight Zone or what's Groundhog's Day where you're every gig

1208
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 2: feels like it starts to blend in with the last,

1209
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 2: because they're all just nothing's changing or growing, it's just stagnating.

1210
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: And were there any glimmers of hope? Were there people

1211
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: who interested it when it faded away? Anything that happened

1212
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: in those years.

1213
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 2: I think we had it, our glimmers of hope. We're

1214
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: not so much external at those gigs. It was a

1215
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 2: lot more of it had to do with breaking through

1216
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 2: on a song, you know, having a moment where you

1217
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 2: feel like the song is dead in the water, and

1218
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you part emerges and you

1219
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 2: feel like you climbed up some mountain together. I think

1220
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 2: there's a reason. You know, this year marks twenty years

1221
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,439
Speaker 2: of me and Jared making music together, and the only

1222
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: thing that has really kept us here. You know, it

1223
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 2: isn't like the rider we get backstage or something. It's

1224
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 2: it's writing music. It's like the core of what we

1225
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: love to do, we get to do without anybody bothering us.

1226
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 2: And I think that is the ultimate ultimate high for us,

1227
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 2: So those were like what kept us going. I think

1228
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 2: was like the joys of like the simple act of

1229
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 2: getting to write music.

1230
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: Tell me about thinking about giving up?

1231
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I didn't really have much

1232
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 2: of a plan outside of music. I was like, my

1233
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: dad's really cool. Maybe I'll try to be a psychologist.

1234
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 2: I did undergrad as a psych major. But I think overall,

1235
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,959
Speaker 2: I just kind of felt like I want to see

1236
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 2: this through. At the same time, as you're getting older,

1237
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 2: you're like, well, the world hasn't told me that this

1238
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: is working, So who's crazy here?

1239
01:06:58,560 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: You know that?

1240
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 2: I think that was the dark hour was like I

1241
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: remember I went home one night from working this waiter

1242
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: job or bartending job in my hometown. My mom had

1243
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 2: her college roommates over, like the once a year they

1244
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 2: get together and have this dinner, and they had done

1245
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 2: that this tradition, and so they see me and they're like, hey, Wes,

1246
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 2: And I'm like twenty six at the time, I'm not

1247
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: feeling great about anything, and I'm not happy to see

1248
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 2: them because you know, you're gonna get like a lot

1249
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 2: of questions. And I had worked a long shift and everything,

1250
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 2: and I kind of just felt embarrassed, you know, and

1251
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 2: the lady was like, I, I just we just have

1252
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: the best idea, you know, all these kids like want

1253
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 2: to learn math, you should write math songs. And I

1254
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 2: just went up and like cried, Like I went to

1255
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: my room and I just cried. I was like, I'm

1256
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 2: such a fucking loser, like and I will not do that.

1257
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 2: Like there's a part of me that was like I

1258
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 2: didn't make music to make money. I just like I

1259
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 2: wouldn't do it like that. That would be like that

1260
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 2: would be.

1261
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 1: Counter.

1262
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't why I was doing it, And so I

1263
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 2: felt really misunderstood that someone would think I would want

1264
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 2: to do that, and that you just feel like people

1265
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: don't really get why you're doing it. And I come

1266
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 2: home from my mom me watching like American Idol or something,

1267
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,559
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, ugh, it's like there's this element

1268
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 2: of that show that all that show is is Broadway singers.

1269
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 2: That's all it is. It's not like artists. These I'm

1270
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 2: sure they they're artists and how they sing, but this

1271
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 2: isn't like what I'm into. This isn't the type of

1272
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 2: artist I want to be. This is operatic, technical singing.

1273
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 2: I want someone who's like baring their soul and in

1274
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 2: a way a shitty singer that is risking it all

1275
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 2: by putting it out there. And so even that was

1276
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 2: weird to come home and you're like, maybe I'm the fool,

1277
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And then like years later,

1278
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 2: American Idol was licensing our songs so that contestants could

1279
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 2: sing it, and I'm like, this is so fucking weird,

1280
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 2: like our song Angela or something, and You're like, I

1281
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 2: don't know how to square this, but but life is

1282
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 2: weird that I think that. I think I just kept

1283
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 2: my head oblivious, like and I have deliberately kept my

1284
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: head down and like stayed oblivious to a lot of

1285
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 2: it and tried to I kept trying to tell myself

1286
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 2: that this is like just part of the like the

1287
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 2: hero's journey or something. You're like, you're gonna do it.

1288
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 2: This is just make your story even better, you know,

1289
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 2: like just trying to convince in any way that you're

1290
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:28,799
Speaker 2: not being an idiot.

1291
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: In the back of your mind was wherever like if

1292
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: this doesn't happen in five years, I'm gonna have to

1293
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:35,759
Speaker 1: do something different.

1294
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 2: I think what I thought was if this doesn't happen.

1295
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 2: And I have kids and I'm going to some open

1296
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 2: mic and my kid has barely enough to eat, and

1297
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, sorry, I got to go to the open mic.

1298
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: I think I would hang it up. I just don't think.

1299
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:52,640
Speaker 2: I don't like I don't think that's in me. I

1300
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 2: think I would want to provide. I'd be like, this

1301
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 2: is wrong. But if it's just me or just me

1302
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 2: and a girlfriend, you know, can go on for a

1303
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 2: long time.

1304
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 1: So what degree was this pursuit for stalling a serious relationship?

1305
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,120
Speaker 2: Like did it hurt having a serious relationship? Is that

1306
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: what you mean?

1307
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: Or yeah? Sort of like were you so listen, there

1308
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: are a lot of people. Everybody's different, okay, but especially

1309
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: in the millennial generation of which you were a member,

1310
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 1: they know the score. They know there's winners and losers.

1311
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: You gotta basically get a job base a certain amount

1312
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 1: of money, you know, otherwise you're going to be on

1313
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: the wrong end of it. So consciously, did you say

1314
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: I'm going to wait to do all that until I

1315
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:49,480
Speaker 1: have you know, I've broken through, or did you conversely

1316
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 1: find or maybe simultaneously find that women said this isn't

1317
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 1: what I'm looking for?

1318
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 2: No, I didn't get a lot. I didn't get a ton.

1319
01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 2: I felt like college, you were the coolest dude ever

1320
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 2: if you could play guitar and sing and you were

1321
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 2: also in school. And the minute I left college, it

1322
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 2: was like, what just happened? You have no you have

1323
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: you have no, Like all the game is lost, it

1324
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 2: felt like, and all the attractiveness that the same thing

1325
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 2: they liked you for they are repulsed by. They think

1326
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 2: you're delusional. I remember seeing a teacher that I kind

1327
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 2: of had a crush on, you know, like, come to

1328
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 2: the country club where I was working. I was cleaning

1329
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 2: the salad bar at the end of the night, and

1330
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 2: she was like, are you all right? It's everything alright.

1331
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, like because I was like,

1332
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm a musician. I'm actually you saw her. It's like

1333
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 2: if she went to an asylum and was talking to

1334
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 2: a crazy person, and I'm like, oh no, she thinks

1335
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 2: that I'm crazy, you know, so I think there there

1336
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 2: was like when I moved to Denver, I had I

1337
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 2: felt like there was more of a culture around being

1338
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 2: an artist. But in New York, at least the experience

1339
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 2: that I had, it was pretty hard to link up

1340
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 2: and meet people that way, because yeah, it's a pretty competitive,

1341
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 2: successful city and if you're just like this on this

1342
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 2: part of the totem pole, it's not very interactive. So

1343
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: when I moved to Denver, I met a lot more

1344
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 2: like gypsy like people, some carnies you know that like

1345
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 2: got what we were trying to do. And then it

1346
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 2: was a little easier to date and to meet people.

1347
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 2: So I met I met my wife. She threw like

1348
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 2: a house show. She threw a house show for like

1349
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 2: her best friend where we show up, and my wife

1350
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 2: was like dating a woman at the time. So I'm thinking,

1351
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 2: like I'm a Jersey boy, and I'm just categorizing, like, oh,

1352
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,240
Speaker 2: Denver has house shows, and that's a lesbian, and that's

1353
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 2: Harry Armpit and that's a you know, like you just

1354
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 2: I just moved there, and so it turned out she

1355
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 2: was not a lesbian. She would just have I've been

1356
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,639
Speaker 2: dating a woman at that time and had dated men before.

1357
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 2: But for about a year I was just talking to

1358
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 2: her like a friend, and that was like a really

1359
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 2: nice way to meet somebody because I wasn't putting on

1360
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 2: any fronts. I was just like being myself and she

1361
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 2: she happened to like that, and it's not how you

1362
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 2: draw it up, but it was a beautiful way to

1363
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 2: meet somebody in the sense of like there was no fronting. Uh,

1364
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 2: it was just like candid talk. You know.

1365
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to be a tabloid guy here.

1366
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: But you dropped in there that you had dated men.

1367
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 1: You can just give a little bit about what was

1368
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: going on there.

1369
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 2: No, I hadn't dated men. She had dated men.

1370
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: Oh why did I stopped? I'm glad I stopped.

1371
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 2: I heard it wrong, Okay, So like I didn't know

1372
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 2: that my wife and also dated men, right, and I

1373
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 2: figured she was just only going for women.

1374
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're in Denver. Two things. Could it have

1375
01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 1: been anywhere? Or was it that you just new people

1376
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: in Denver and it made it easier? And once you

1377
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: got to Denver, what was different? And how did you

1378
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:08,200
Speaker 1: start to climb the ladder?

1379
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:10,640
Speaker 2: I feel like it could have in a way, it

1380
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 2: could have been anywhere, but the people who I met

1381
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 2: there helped helped out, especially someone like Stealth, who's our

1382
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 2: piano player now, in the sense that he shared all

1383
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 2: of the contacts he had and possibly have in music.

1384
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 2: He's like, here's where you can go in the West Coast.

1385
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: Otherwise you go out to the West Coast, you don't

1386
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 2: know where to play, you don't have anybody interested in

1387
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 2: coming to your show. So he just gave me a

1388
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 2: Rolodex because he had been touring with his band on

1389
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 2: a very grassroots level and a DIY house show kind

1390
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 2: of level. So he's the first guy to take us

1391
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,799
Speaker 2: out busting went to Boulder and busting on the streets

1392
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 2: for money, and then gave me this just long list

1393
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 2: of people to call an email. And that's how we

1394
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 2: did our first touring. And I feel like Denver was

1395
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 2: helpful because if you're on a coast, you stick to

1396
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 2: that coast unless you're just really getting after it. But

1397
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 2: when you're in Denver, you got to go left or right.

1398
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 2: You can't really stay there. There's only a couple of

1399
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 2: cities you can really play. So it was like it

1400
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 2: was on I mean the first tour we did that

1401
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 2: was a real deal tour that was DIY. We went

1402
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 2: took a mini van and a little U haul trailer,

1403
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 2: the smallest one they had, and we drove it all

1404
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 2: the way out to the West coast, all the way

1405
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 2: up the coast through the country down the East coast

1406
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 2: back in thirty days and just played a ton of shows,

1407
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 2: and it was like that was a baptism by fire

1408
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 2: in the most beautiful way. Had I gone somewhere else,

1409
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 2: let's say I went to Buffalo, New York, I think

1410
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 2: I just stay on the East Coast, and then that's

1411
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 2: less of like a baptism, that's less of a challenge,

1412
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 2: you know. So I think being in the middle of

1413
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 2: the country had its pressures of like, you're gonna have

1414
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 2: to go and one's not that much easier than the others,

1415
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 2: so you got to go all over. It made us

1416
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:03,879
Speaker 2: think about it differently.

1417
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: Okay, how do you you got in a van and

1418
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:10,799
Speaker 1: you started playing, how'd you get the gigs?

1419
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 2: I called, called an emailed. I was the tour manager,

1420
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 2: so I was calling and emailing all these people that

1421
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,479
Speaker 2: Stealth had given me and just like googling places, and

1422
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 2: we found that the best impact and the best way

1423
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,720
Speaker 2: to really come back to that city and see real

1424
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,759
Speaker 2: people come out wasn't playing clubs. It was playing people's

1425
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 2: living rooms. So you like, on our first album, you

1426
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:34,879
Speaker 2: hear a lot of the influence of kind of bus

1427
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 2: styles singing and performing. When you're busking, you have to project,

1428
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 2: and you have to sing really loudly and almost scream.

1429
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 2: So a lot of that album is just it's like

1430
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 2: informed by those gigs. You know, you kind of like

1431
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 2: glean what's going to work in that style room, and

1432
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 2: then that ends up on your record by accident. But

1433
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 2: I would say you kind of just take a leap

1434
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,600
Speaker 2: of faith and you do that first few gigs and

1435
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 2: hopefully someone has steered you correctly, like this is a

1436
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 2: good place to go. And so we just did a

1437
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 2: lot of that. We called people that we knew would

1438
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,759
Speaker 2: have friends come out, even if they didn't know the band,

1439
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 2: so'd be like, hey, can we just we just it's

1440
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 2: almost like we're not going to pay you, but we'd

1441
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:20,760
Speaker 2: almost pay you to do this, Like can you just

1442
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,479
Speaker 2: get some people here? All we want is bodies in

1443
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 2: the room. We want to just play to people. And

1444
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 2: there's so much of our previous musical life have been

1445
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 2: spent being so proud of posting on the website all

1446
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 2: the gigs we had scheduled. And then you get to

1447
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 2: that gig in Philadelphia or Virginia or wherever, and it

1448
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 2: looked nice online and on the flyer and no one's there.

1449
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: And then when you go to a house show, everyone

1450
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 2: has a different feeling about it and they're kind of

1451
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 2: forced to commit there, they're really engaged in listening, and

1452
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 2: the next time you come to town, you almost it's

1453
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 2: like double the people. There's some deep, deep intimacy impact

1454
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 2: to that that I never knew until I did it.

1455
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 2: And then it became like a way to to really

1456
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 2: effectively tour and like make it somehow work while you're

1457
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 2: being a busboy on the side.

1458
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: So when you talk about touring the West Coast, you

1459
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 1: were mostly playing living rooms.

1460
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, mostly people's houses, house shows.

1461
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: And was this a self sustaining tour or was it

1462
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:25,639
Speaker 1: in the red.

1463
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:30,080
Speaker 2: It was like break even territory, like you maybe maybe

1464
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:31,720
Speaker 2: lost a little bit, maybe you made a little bit,

1465
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 2: but nothing nothing significant, nothing gained or lost, but the experience,

1466
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 2: you know, and I think the belief that if you

1467
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 2: could do that enough, maybe somebody would invite someone with

1468
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 2: some connection to somebody and it would get on somebody's radar,

1469
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 2: which weirdly, like I remember, our publicist Jim sent a

1470
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 2: video of our house show, of a house show of

1471
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 2: ho Hey to the booker ofl and then a year

1472
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,160
Speaker 2: later we were on the show. So it's like those

1473
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 2: things have a way of they keep playing a big guard.

1474
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 2: You're playing a lot of seeds, and you just never

1475
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 2: know where thing's gonna come from.

1476
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: Okay, when you went on this tour, was it like, well,

1477
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: we never did this before, let's try it, or was

1478
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 1: there already momentum.

1479
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 2: We had never done it, and let's try it. And

1480
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 2: then we did it and enjoyed it, so we did

1481
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 2: another one. I think we did probably three.

1482
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: So at what point did you feel it's starting to

1483
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 1: turn I think this might work.

1484
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 2: I think I went home for Christmas and we were

1485
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 2: gonna record and we were gonna have that residency at

1486
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:43,600
Speaker 2: the living room, and my brother said, did you know

1487
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 2: that ho hey house video show? The House Show? Uh?

1488
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 2: They put on YouTube. That thing has like five thousand

1489
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 2: hits And I was like, no way, no fucking way.

1490
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 2: And we looked and it had like six and I

1491
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 2: was like what. And that was it was around that time,

1492
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 2: like the four or five six thousand hit mark where

1493
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 2: I was like, something's happening here. And then we played

1494
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 2: five shows at the living room and then we used

1495
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:13,800
Speaker 2: that as kind of like a satellite here in New

1496
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 2: York every Tuesday. Where else can we go in between?

1497
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 2: So we went to Virginia, went to I think Pittsburgh,

1498
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:23,880
Speaker 2: maybe we went to DC, we went up to Maine.

1499
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 2: We went all these different places in between those five gigs,

1500
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 2: and by the fifth show, the living room, that show

1501
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 2: sold out. So it was like, over the course of

1502
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 2: a month we even saw a half empty room to

1503
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 2: a sold out room. It was really cool.

1504
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 1: It was like.

1505
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:49,360
Speaker 2: Really innocent, you know, you're just like the room probably

1506
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 2: helped forty forty five people, but for us, that was

1507
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 2: like playing Madison Square Garden. It was like, I cannot

1508
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,719
Speaker 2: believe these people are here, and it was people. Suddenly

1509
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 2: there's people there we didn't know, you know normally, like

1510
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 2: how did you find out about It's like, oh, it

1511
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 2: would always be a friend of a friend, and then

1512
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 2: that's how you kind of know something is breaking a

1513
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 2: little bit.

1514
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's where they make the connection with the manager.

1515
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: How long after that is your song in the CW

1516
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 1: TV show And how long after that till ho Hey

1517
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 1: gets on the radio?

1518
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 2: I think that happened probably November October November something like

1519
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 2: at the end of that year. That song was recorded

1520
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 2: and then made it onto that show, and then we

1521
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 2: were signing management because we had recorded that at some

1522
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 2: point that year. We had recorded our demos that year.

1523
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 2: So the following year we're going through the label process

1524
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 2: and it gets released I want to say it in

1525
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 2: April of twenty twelve. And at that point when that

1526
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:07,560
Speaker 2: album came out, oh hey, it was already on the

1527
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 2: radio a couple months before that, and it had kind

1528
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:15,280
Speaker 2: of like shot up into different formats and it was

1529
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 2: all just news to us.

1530
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 1: Tell me about the first time you heard it on

1531
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: the radio.

1532
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 2: I was living with my girlfriend who's now my wife.

1533
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 2: We were that's a different whole other story. We were

1534
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 2: living in the basement of the nanny. She was a

1535
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 2: nanny for this family and they let me live with

1536
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:34,679
Speaker 2: her in their basement. They were like the nicest people,

1537
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 2: the Swedish family. So I was like living with them

1538
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:42,240
Speaker 2: and sort of helping to nanny like babysit a little bit,

1539
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 2: and they like would hire me to give their kids

1540
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 2: music lessons just to be nice to me, because I

1541
01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 2: think they felt bad. And then I was making some

1542
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 2: sort of Swedish like we were using dough and making

1543
01:22:56,120 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 2: these Swedish pancakes or something and my hands were like

1544
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:03,640
Speaker 2: covered in flour and we were in there with their

1545
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,760
Speaker 2: kids and it comes on on the radio station and

1546
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 2: it was the first time I heard it. It was like

1547
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:10,879
Speaker 2: I wanted to like get my phone out and text somebody.

1548
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 2: And my hands were covered in flour from the cooking

1549
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 2: we were doing. And we were about to leave for

1550
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 2: for tour at that point, and and I was like, well,

1551
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 2: that's a good sign. And I think we had just

1552
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:27,600
Speaker 2: found out we were going to play Conan and that

1553
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,240
Speaker 2: was a real dream come true. We just love Conan O'Brien,

1554
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 2: and like things were happening, you know. I think we

1555
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 2: got in a south By Southwest after years of rejection.

1556
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:38,840
Speaker 2: That's I mean, that's like the sort of irony of

1557
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 2: festivals like that south By and stuff like that. It's

1558
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:45,720
Speaker 2: like you're almost getting in when they already have heard

1559
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 2: about you, which is not the point to me, but uh,

1560
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 2: it seems to all snowball are happen at once sometimes.

1561
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 1: So were you pinching yourself? Did you believe it? Did

1562
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:59,639
Speaker 1: you feel like well deserved? Did you feel like it's

1563
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 1: gonna operate in any minute?

1564
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 2: I think I felt like the ladder. I think I

1565
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 2: felt like easy comanies ago, and I was I felt

1566
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 2: like I was in a dangerous place, like I needed

1567
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:18,439
Speaker 2: to protect myself, and I was, you know, I was

1568
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 2: thirty at the time, and I was like I had

1569
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 2: this attitude of like, I don't want them to make

1570
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 2: me someone I'm not. I want to I want to

1571
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 2: feel like true to myself. And so we'd go to

1572
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 2: photo shoots and they would have a rack of clothes

1573
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 2: and I would get upset up, like why did you

1574
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 2: bring clothes? Like I have my clothes. I'm gonna wear

1575
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 2: what I wear, you know. Even down to that, it

1576
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:45,240
Speaker 2: was like, really remember going to the Grammys and they'd

1577
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 2: be like, here's some free sunglasses. You just have to

1578
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:48,600
Speaker 2: take a photo. I was like, I don't want to

1579
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 2: fucking take a photo. Like it was. I felt like

1580
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:57,400
Speaker 2: the industry as a whole, whether it was imagined or real,

1581
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 2: it felt like it was just to sort of like

1582
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 2: soften you to change in a way that I didn't like.

1583
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 2: And I didn't feel safe around. I felt like I

1584
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:10,320
Speaker 2: was always in this weird danger zone of maybe whatever

1585
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 2: I thought made us who we were was gonna be

1586
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 2: played around with and rooted out of us. So I

1587
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 2: was like really wary of the whole thing, and then

1588
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:25,840
Speaker 2: I wasn't so concerned about like whatever was going to

1589
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 2: happen next. I just felt like a lot of this

1590
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:33,360
Speaker 2: stuff felt cheap, like it wasn't didn't mean that much

1591
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 2: to me versus some other things in my life, Like,

1592
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 2: you know, it felt like objectified, and I don't really

1593
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 2: know if that's a healthy way to look at it.

1594
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:45,640
Speaker 2: And I think other people around me were enjoying it

1595
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 2: a lot more. I think now I feel in a

1596
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 2: really happy place with it, because I feel like there's

1597
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 2: a level of like independence from some of that and

1598
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 2: security where I'm like, I felt like we built a

1599
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 2: trust with an audience that doesn't can't be like taken

1600
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: away from us in an instant. But at the time,

1601
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 2: it felt like there's some people out there who just

1602
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:08,840
Speaker 2: like want to make it known that they can make

1603
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:09,640
Speaker 2: you and unmake you.

1604
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 1: So you mentioned a couple of times of being in

1605
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 1: the Grammys, you have this incredible peak with ho, Hey,

1606
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:22,559
Speaker 1: to what degree has that been in your mind for

1607
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 1: the ensuing decade plus we're saying, Hey, you know, I

1608
01:26:26,040 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 1: have to go back to that pinnacle where I want

1609
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:30,280
Speaker 1: to go back to that pinnacle.

1610
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:35,000
Speaker 2: I think we were really we were really lucky to

1611
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:38,680
Speaker 2: have a like the album. First album, I felt, I'm

1612
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:40,920
Speaker 2: I'm super proud of that record, and we had Stubborn

1613
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 2: Love is like a follow up to that to ho hey,

1614
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 2: and my manager at the time brought up this really

1615
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:48,679
Speaker 2: good point that I had lost sight of. He said,

1616
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, if any band had that song and that

1617
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:54,640
Speaker 2: was their only song off that album, they would be

1618
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 2: over the moon. That is a big deal. It's just

1619
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 2: was like you're talking about ZEITG stuff when you talk

1620
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:04,880
Speaker 2: about what happened around o Hey. That's not as lightning

1621
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,639
Speaker 2: in a bottle. That's almost circumstances way beyond anyone's control.

1622
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 2: And when we came out the second record, I was

1623
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 2: I felt like we had made an even better record

1624
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 2: and like instinctively, you know, and then I felt like

1625
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:26,599
Speaker 2: we were really really lucky that Ophelia had the connection

1626
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 2: it did and it had its own moment where we

1627
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 2: didn't feel like we had to prove that was just

1628
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 2: a fluke, you know. I felt like that already with

1629
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,320
Speaker 2: having Stubborn Love in the mix, but then having Ophelia

1630
01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 2: just shoot up, and then we had Cleo and Angela

1631
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 2: on that second record. It was. It was definitely strange

1632
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 2: to to you know, you come out of the gates

1633
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:53,360
Speaker 2: with your first album and you get nominated for Best

1634
01:27:53,400 --> 01:27:56,280
Speaker 2: New Artists and Best Americana Record, and then you put

1635
01:27:56,320 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 2: out what you feel is a better record that connect

1636
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 2: to a lot of people, and it's just crickets from

1637
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:06,479
Speaker 2: the Grammys. There's not like a nomination. But I don't

1638
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,519
Speaker 2: I've learned over time that that's like, that's just a

1639
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 2: strange world. I don't I don't necessarily understand how things are.

1640
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 2: I know we don't fit neatly into a box, so

1641
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 2: that probably works against us with some of that stuff.

1642
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 2: And I know we're not on a major I know

1643
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 2: we don't play the game as well as other people.

1644
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 2: But it was surprising to be like, I'm just kind

1645
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 2: of shocked we got nominated at all, knowing what I

1646
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:30,559
Speaker 2: know now, and then we got to play the show.

1647
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 2: It was kind of a miracle for us because that

1648
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 2: a lot of our friends and family and just fans

1649
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:37,599
Speaker 2: thought we had won because we had played the show.

1650
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 2: So like in a lot of ways, it's it's a

1651
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 2: really beautiful break like turn of events and break for us.

1652
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 2: And now we've kind of remained under the radar as

1653
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:52,720
Speaker 2: far as that goes. But I guess you just you

1654
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 2: take your breaks where you can get them. That's how

1655
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,559
Speaker 2: I kind of view it. It's like, at first, you

1656
01:28:57,560 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 2: don't understand it and it doesn't make sense, and it

1657
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 2: can be kind of like deflating, but it's also a

1658
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 2: strange measure of yourself. If that's how you're like viewing it,

1659
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 2: you know it's a kind of a trap.

1660
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:15,120
Speaker 1: Okay, there's four years between the first and second albums.

1661
01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:16,200
Speaker 1: Why is that?

1662
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 2: We toured a lot, and we just we wanted the

1663
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:24,720
Speaker 2: first album we only had ten days to make to

1664
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 2: record and I think five days to mix, and this

1665
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 2: one we wanted like a chunk of time, so it

1666
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 2: was like six weeks. We just kind of waited. We

1667
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 2: didn't record while we were touring, so we waited until

1668
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 2: touring wrapped up, which was lasted something like three years,

1669
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:43,559
Speaker 2: and then it took a half a year to write

1670
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 2: and record the record, and then by the time it

1671
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 2: came out it was four years. But I didn't particularly

1672
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 2: care that much about how long it took. I just

1673
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:54,599
Speaker 2: thought the fastest way to plummet is to put out

1674
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 2: a mediocre record, So I was like, as long as

1675
01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 2: this is strong, we're our chances of like survival and all.

1676
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 2: This is way higher than if we rush something to

1677
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:12,600
Speaker 2: please someone. I think today's people making music have a

1678
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,439
Speaker 2: lot of fear around people forgetting about them, and I

1679
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:18,479
Speaker 2: just don't agree with that. I think I get really

1680
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,240
Speaker 2: turned off when I hear music that sounds rushed. It

1681
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:26,640
Speaker 2: sounds like half baked versus someone who, oh yeah, remember that.

1682
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 2: I love that band, and every time they put something out,

1683
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 2: I fucking dig it. So I was never really too concerned.

1684
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 2: I know our management was a bit or a label,

1685
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 2: and our management are concerned about those types of things,

1686
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 2: but it never really bothered me that much.

1687
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 1: So what is the process? Do you say, oh, it's

1688
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 1: time for a new album, let me write songs. You're

1689
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 1: writing songs all the time.

1690
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:58,960
Speaker 2: I think it's you're always kind of collecting little little

1691
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:02,080
Speaker 2: song ideas, little parts of songs throughout touring and then

1692
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:06,719
Speaker 2: off tour. I sift through all those ideas and Jerry

1693
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 2: sends me his ideas to sit through those, and then

1694
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 2: you you often react to those ideas and come up

1695
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: with new ones, and then you kind of smash them

1696
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:15,799
Speaker 2: all together. Those good ideas and that makes a record,

1697
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:17,920
Speaker 2: and then some of us just written on the spot,

1698
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 2: but a lot of it is just like ideas that

1699
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 2: have been existing independent of each other, just sitting around

1700
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:27,040
Speaker 2: on your voice note voice memo thing.

1701
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So if the record that's coming out automatic imminently,

1702
01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:37,519
Speaker 1: if that was cut in July, when were the songs written.

1703
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was cut in like May June. So songs

1704
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 2: were written. I want to say, they're written March, like

1705
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 2: end of March, early April.

1706
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 1: So they were written right before the record.

1707
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, and they weren't really written. They were just

1708
01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 2: really rough, rough, rough sketches. They were not well written

1709
01:31:58,640 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 2: or recorded at all. They were just quick notes, quick

1710
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 2: voice memos. Meet Jared and I did around a guitar

1711
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 2: and a piano usually and just hey, I think this

1712
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:12,240
Speaker 2: is the melody. And then and then I would take

1713
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 2: like I would take a adder all and just walk

1714
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:17,880
Speaker 2: around the park and just mumble to myself like a

1715
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:22,400
Speaker 2: schizophrenic person and just get a bunch of lyrics written

1716
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 2: between when we finished sort of demoing the the rough,

1717
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:30,639
Speaker 2: rough ideas and then trying to fill in the blanks

1718
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:34,639
Speaker 2: with some lyrics. So it was like that that area

1719
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:37,719
Speaker 2: of time was just a lot of constant like trying

1720
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:39,920
Speaker 2: to create something, and it was and then when we

1721
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 2: got to the studio, I think it's our it's I

1722
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:45,880
Speaker 2: think it's our best record on a lot of levels,

1723
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 2: mainly because take the first record, for example, we we

1724
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:52,200
Speaker 2: had written all those songs over the course of like

1725
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 2: three four years, and then we had performed them hundreds

1726
01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:59,000
Speaker 2: of times, and so by the time we went in

1727
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 2: to make the Alb it was like you knew everything

1728
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 2: about the songs, and there wasn't discovery, There wasn't like

1729
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 2: that feeling of danger or curiosity. It was just like execution,

1730
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 2: almost like you'd been putting on a play and now

1731
01:33:13,320 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 2: you're gonna do the movie of it. And and this

1732
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 2: one was there's we had no we call demo ititis,

1733
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 2: where you've done something so cool as a demo and

1734
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 2: now you're all you're really trying to do is like

1735
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:31,360
Speaker 2: pantomime thatt recreate that, and that's impossible. It's like I

1736
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:33,759
Speaker 2: always say, it's like if you ever have the best

1737
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 2: date with your partner, every time you go back to

1738
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 2: that restaurant and try to recreate it, it's always not

1739
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,320
Speaker 2: as good. And there's something about that process that we

1740
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:46,679
Speaker 2: did on this one where you can hear us being

1741
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:52,120
Speaker 2: like children just exploring and like playing around like they say,

1742
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 2: play music like we were playing for the first time

1743
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 2: in a long time, and it was It was really beautiful,

1744
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 2: and it kind of it was surprising that twenty years

1745
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:06,559
Speaker 2: in Jere and I were as excited as we've ever

1746
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 2: been for something. It made me feel good about me

1747
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 2: and him and a band and what we're doing because

1748
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 2: I know there are elements of this where bands kind

1749
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 2: of get into it for other reasons and then it

1750
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 2: kind of becomes something different over time. And for us,

1751
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:24,920
Speaker 2: it was like, wow, this is great. Can you know?

1752
01:34:25,320 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 2: There was such a a wellspring in it and I

1753
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:29,640
Speaker 2: think you can hear on the record and we did

1754
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 2: most of them takes are live. They're like really there's

1755
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:36,160
Speaker 2: a a lot of humanity and all of it.

1756
01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 1: So was there like hard start date that you were

1757
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 1: working towards. Yeah, And who's the producer on the new album?

1758
01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:48,080
Speaker 2: There's three it's like us, me and Jerr and then

1759
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:49,759
Speaker 2: David Baron and Simon Fleee.

1760
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 1: So you've continued to work with Simon Felice. What does

1761
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:54,519
Speaker 1: he add to the mix?

1762
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:58,919
Speaker 2: I think he has this kind of like raw instinct

1763
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,680
Speaker 2: when it comes to things that are working, and an

1764
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 2: ability to unite the troops. You know, he kinda when

1765
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 2: things are starting to splinter off, he can bring the

1766
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:14,720
Speaker 2: room back together. And he's really a savant when it

1767
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:19,519
Speaker 2: comes to lyrics. So I really love to check in

1768
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 2: with him about stuff that I'm doing. What do you

1769
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:24,040
Speaker 2: what do you like? What do you really think of this?

1770
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:26,600
Speaker 2: And he'll tell me just shoot me straight with that.

1771
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:32,439
Speaker 2: And then David's more of he's a great producer in

1772
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:34,559
Speaker 2: his own right, but he's he's also a wizard when

1773
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:37,639
Speaker 2: it comes to the engineering side of things, and he's

1774
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 2: an artist in his own way when it comes to,

1775
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:45,760
Speaker 2: you know, presenting a guitar, presenting a vocal or presenting

1776
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 2: piano drum sounds. It's like he's really pushing that to

1777
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:56,720
Speaker 2: the limit as far as like what what's possible and

1778
01:35:56,760 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 2: how raw you want to make it? And like with

1779
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:02,599
Speaker 2: the vocals, for example, all the vocals are like sitting

1780
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:04,720
Speaker 2: really upfront in the mix and not a lot of

1781
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 2: adornment for most of them. Like a song like Automatic,

1782
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:11,560
Speaker 2: the title track is just like right, he describeses like

1783
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:15,240
Speaker 2: it's holding right in the center, right at you, and

1784
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:18,479
Speaker 2: he's just encouraged us to be really brave with our

1785
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 2: choices and mixing, and I think it and he was

1786
01:36:23,520 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 2: the one who wanted it to be like get back

1787
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 2: the Beatles, where it's a big, open room and there's

1788
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 2: a lot of bleed and you're kind of like playing

1789
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 2: all together live, not multi tracking and doing everything separately.

1790
01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:38,719
Speaker 2: So he's a big he was like the instrumental force

1791
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 2: behind that.

1792
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 1: So how do you feel about your touring band playing

1793
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:46,040
Speaker 1: on the record or other musicians.

1794
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean on this one, it was just me

1795
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 2: and Jerr and then we brought in a violinist who

1796
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 2: this violin player was from the area, and then it

1797
01:36:57,640 --> 01:37:00,720
Speaker 2: was not Lauren Jacobson, who's been played with us on

1798
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:06,120
Speaker 2: every record since the beginning. She wasn't she wasn't in

1799
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 2: the immediate area the day we wanted violin, and so

1800
01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 2: we we tried out and we didn't want to have

1801
01:37:12,439 --> 01:37:14,960
Speaker 2: her on call in terms of it just felt like

1802
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:18,600
Speaker 2: we weren't even sure if what we wanted, so we

1803
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 2: called someone local, weren't sure if that wasn't sure, if

1804
01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 2: that was gonna be a placeholder or whatever. And then

1805
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 2: it worked out and Lauren was super understanding of what

1806
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:29,559
Speaker 2: we were trying how it all unfolded, which credit to her.

1807
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 2: With regards to the other instruments we have Byron Isaac's

1808
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 2: on bass and he tours with us. He used to

1809
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 2: play with Leavon home and for like six years and

1810
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 2: wrote a song or two on his Dirt Farmer record,

1811
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 2: and he's an amazing musician in his own right. We

1812
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:48,800
Speaker 2: met him on the second album and he's been with

1813
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:50,719
Speaker 2: us ever since. So he played with us a lot

1814
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 2: live for this for this album, and then we had,

1815
01:37:55,200 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, a choir of three singers that would come in,

1816
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,080
Speaker 2: amazing singers and they would do backing vocals, and we

1817
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 2: had a little bit of James Felee, Simon's brother who

1818
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:09,639
Speaker 2: has sang on our records a lot. He's fantastic. He's

1819
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 2: in the Police Brothers.

1820
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 1: Okay. Even when Ho Hay was a hit twenty twelve,

1821
01:38:16,160 --> 01:38:20,160
Speaker 1: the landscape was completely different from the way it is today. Today.

1822
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:22,639
Speaker 1: You look at the Spotify Top fifty, you can look

1823
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:26,879
Speaker 1: at the top five records and people a vast swath

1824
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: of the public, even music fans, have never heard them.

1825
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,880
Speaker 1: So when you put out a record today, I mean

1826
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:38,600
Speaker 1: the old cliche used to be that the tour was

1827
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:41,720
Speaker 1: the advertisement for the record. The record is now the

1828
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:46,920
Speaker 1: advertisement for the tour. You make a new album, not

1829
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 1: to mention the fact, I'm sure you'll sell you know,

1830
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 1: physical product, whatever, but eighty four percent of the revenues

1831
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:57,440
Speaker 1: now or on streams. What are your expectations.

1832
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:03,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. I try to keep my I try

1833
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,680
Speaker 2: to keep everything kind of like as a surprise. I

1834
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:08,760
Speaker 2: don't really know on tour where I'm gonna be the

1835
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,800
Speaker 2: next day. I don't look too far ahead, and it's

1836
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:16,400
Speaker 2: almost like not on purpose, but it's instinctive. So I

1837
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:18,800
Speaker 2: like being surprised if people connect with it. I think

1838
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 2: that was what was cleansing about making an album. Three

1839
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,160
Speaker 2: was like I knew it wasn't gonna do quote unquote

1840
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 2: well like I knew it. I was like, this is

1841
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 2: not that type of record, and I still want to

1842
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 2: make it. I think it's important that we make this record.

1843
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 2: And it kind of tamped down whatever that part of

1844
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 2: my side of my brain or that ego part of it.

1845
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 2: It was freeing to just make something for the sake

1846
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 2: of making it. That's probably you know, that's how you

1847
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:49,920
Speaker 2: should make every record. And so with this one, I mean,

1848
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 2: I'll say that the early responses of playing it live

1849
01:39:56,160 --> 01:39:59,360
Speaker 2: are really special, and I don't think that's I think

1850
01:39:59,360 --> 01:40:02,040
Speaker 2: that's a strong indicator of it's more. I think the

1851
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:06,320
Speaker 2: more the bigger question is like, well, anyone know it's out?

1852
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 2: And if you're not dating or Kardashian, does anyone know

1853
01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:13,360
Speaker 2: your music or something? So I think there's ways people

1854
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 2: cleverly promote. Whether it's Jack White, who I think does

1855
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 2: it super artfully, it's like a genius when it comes

1856
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 2: to letting you know he has a record out.

1857
01:40:23,040 --> 01:40:23,519
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1858
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:26,280
Speaker 2: I feel like we've always been a slow burn and

1859
01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 2: hopefully things take hold, but it feels like a trap

1860
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 2: to like want something specific to happen with it. And also,

1861
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 2: I've been proud of every record we've made, and they're

1862
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:41,760
Speaker 2: not always they don't always hit the way that you

1863
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 2: thought they would, or the songs like look we have

1864
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 2: on on the album three, we had a song called Donna,

1865
01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:52,840
Speaker 2: and I don't know what the streaming numbers are on that,

1866
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:57,719
Speaker 2: but like live, that's a big song for us, and

1867
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 2: that means so much because it's a slow, piano, sad

1868
01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 2: song and I just love when those things. I love

1869
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 2: when I feel like the audience is choosing something organically

1870
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:14,040
Speaker 2: and they haven't been force fed something, because obviously when

1871
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:17,439
Speaker 2: something like Ophelia happens or oh hey, that stuff is

1872
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:19,920
Speaker 2: force fed, it's like a duck, you know, making the

1873
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:24,120
Speaker 2: foie gras. It's like the audience is it's forced upon them,

1874
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 2: and I don't that's part of the game. But what

1875
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 2: made me really happy or mental lot to me was

1876
01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:32,639
Speaker 2: when people like songs I Slow It Down or Donna,

1877
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:37,920
Speaker 2: or songs that never made the radio. You know. Those

1878
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:41,560
Speaker 2: are those show you that an audience is is discerning

1879
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:45,000
Speaker 2: and does have a taste, and they tell you by

1880
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 2: by how they listen to it online or had a show.

1881
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:51,560
Speaker 2: You could just feel. And that's to me, that's a

1882
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:56,600
Speaker 2: lot more like sustainable and reassuring, and I try to

1883
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,559
Speaker 2: focus on that because otherwise it's like, I mean, I'm

1884
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:02,160
Speaker 2: not just turned forty two or not like a young band.

1885
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:06,479
Speaker 2: This isn't like the new shiny thing. And I hope that.

1886
01:42:07,160 --> 01:42:10,480
Speaker 2: I hope that's it's a situation like Tom Petty Wildflowers,

1887
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:15,679
Speaker 2: where it's like a renaissance constantly. I couldn't believe being

1888
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:21,479
Speaker 2: a teenager listening to that album and it feeling so fresh,

1889
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:25,439
Speaker 2: and I could go backwards in his catalog and get

1890
01:42:25,479 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 2: blown away, like it's so such a cool feeling, and

1891
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 2: I'm I've always been enamored by that situation. Just it

1892
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:35,599
Speaker 2: was a very formative time for me. I remember holding

1893
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:40,800
Speaker 2: that CD. It was that brown paper like CD the

1894
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 2: outside of it, and just being like, who is this guy?

1895
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 2: And then remembering realizing that I'd heard all these songs

1896
01:42:46,160 --> 01:42:50,519
Speaker 2: on classic rock stations by this guy, and yet this

1897
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:53,240
Speaker 2: is something he has to say, that's brand new, that's

1898
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:56,200
Speaker 2: maybe the best thing he's done. You know, it's so

1899
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:59,639
Speaker 2: so impressive. So I'd like to believe that it comes

1900
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:03,880
Speaker 2: from like the audience sort of finding it and gravitating

1901
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:05,880
Speaker 2: toward it. But they're so out of our hands.

1902
01:43:07,240 --> 01:43:10,960
Speaker 1: So you play a gig, you know, if a band

1903
01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 1: prior to the turn of the century goes on the

1904
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 1: road and they play the new music, people go to

1905
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:20,080
Speaker 1: the bathroom, what is your experience?

1906
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 2: They do that too, They also stay I mean we

1907
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 2: so we'll play our whole new album live every tour

1908
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:33,200
Speaker 2: we're doing. If that's the if that's the tour we're on,

1909
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:35,000
Speaker 2: if it's like the bright Side tour, we're playing the

1910
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 2: bright side albums, the automatic or You're gonna hear the

1911
01:43:37,439 --> 01:43:41,120
Speaker 2: album like, and I think the trick is committing to

1912
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:45,720
Speaker 2: that and fans expecting that is probably an important thing

1913
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 2: for a band to do. Now as you get older,

1914
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:51,679
Speaker 2: who knows how that plays out. Like I remember seeing

1915
01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:55,360
Speaker 2: Bruce Springsteen or Tom Petty and they'd have new albums

1916
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:57,599
Speaker 2: out and they would play like chunks of the album

1917
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:01,880
Speaker 2: select tracks, and I see that as cool too, But

1918
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 2: for us it wasn't. Maybe it was encouragement by our

1919
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:09,439
Speaker 2: booking agents or management or something I don't really know,

1920
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 2: but instinctively, it was really fun to play new stuff,

1921
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:17,719
Speaker 2: even if I feel like you break people in enough

1922
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:19,920
Speaker 2: to it the shock goes away or something and they're

1923
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:23,479
Speaker 2: just they're down with it. And like we opened for

1924
01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:27,759
Speaker 2: You two in twenty seventeen, and that was the first

1925
01:44:28,160 --> 01:44:31,080
Speaker 2: time I think in their career where they had really

1926
01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 2: like kind of looked back. They played Joshua Tree as

1927
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:36,679
Speaker 2: an entire They were going to play the whole thing,

1928
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:39,800
Speaker 2: And it was thirty years or something anniversary and we

1929
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:44,160
Speaker 2: were opening and they started playing stadiums for that. Two

1930
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:46,600
Speaker 2: nights at the Rose Bowl was the first gigs we

1931
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:49,920
Speaker 2: played with them. And so they had gone from playing

1932
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 2: arenas to stadiums because they were willing to play older stuff.

1933
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:57,720
Speaker 2: But I thought, what a testament to you two that

1934
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 2: they've continued to like do what they wanted to do

1935
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:04,040
Speaker 2: and not being like dance, Monkey Dance, I'm gonna play

1936
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:06,280
Speaker 2: only the hits and I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy these

1937
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:08,439
Speaker 2: stadium gigs. They were like, we want to play it

1938
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:11,240
Speaker 2: our way. So if our way means you play arenas,

1939
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:16,160
Speaker 2: that's great too. And uh so they're they're playing arenas

1940
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:19,360
Speaker 2: as like almost their version of an underplay versus like

1941
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:26,639
Speaker 2: playing just the hits. And I think for us playing

1942
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:30,559
Speaker 2: the whole song, playing the whole album, uh for for

1943
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 2: for audiences has been it was tough in the beginning,

1944
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:35,800
Speaker 2: but it was all we had. Like we put out

1945
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:38,120
Speaker 2: our second album, what were supposed to do? We didn't

1946
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:41,400
Speaker 2: enough music to fill up like the whole the whole time,

1947
01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 2: unless it was cover songs. So from the beginning we

1948
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:46,200
Speaker 2: were forced to play our whole records. And now it's

1949
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:48,160
Speaker 2: just an old habit that I think is a good

1950
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:48,639
Speaker 2: one to have.

1951
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:51,719
Speaker 1: So I had to get hooked up with Louis Messina.

1952
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 2: That's a really good question.

1953
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1954
01:45:55,560 --> 01:46:00,400
Speaker 2: Uh, he came into our world early on and believed us,

1955
01:46:00,760 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 2: and he works with just heavyweights and had this weird,

1956
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:13,400
Speaker 2: like it's like otherworldly enthusiasm for music for a guy

1957
01:46:13,439 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 2: who's been doing it for a while and been very successful.

1958
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 2: I think you'd expect someone to walk in the room

1959
01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:25,360
Speaker 2: that was a little more businessman, cold calculated, and he's

1960
01:46:25,360 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 2: like jumping up and down, and he's like tearing up

1961
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 2: at shows and he's like a kid. You know. It's like,

1962
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:34,960
Speaker 2: it's great to see. I mean it. It sounds like

1963
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:37,680
Speaker 2: it should be a prerequisite to work in music that

1964
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:40,920
Speaker 2: you love music, but as you probably well know, not

1965
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:44,880
Speaker 2: everybody who ends up here actually likes it. So it's

1966
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:48,760
Speaker 2: nice to be around people who have that fire and

1967
01:46:48,760 --> 01:46:52,240
Speaker 2: that passion and in his case, believed in us way

1968
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 2: more than we ever believed in what it could. I

1969
01:46:56,760 --> 01:46:58,559
Speaker 2: hesitate to even say it that way, because I don't

1970
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:01,000
Speaker 2: I think it's odd to like want to play a stadium.

1971
01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:04,559
Speaker 2: I don't, that's not like an ambition. But he, for him,

1972
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:06,519
Speaker 2: that's exciting. He's like, I'm gonna get the most people

1973
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:08,599
Speaker 2: at your show, and it's really cool. And he's kind

1974
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 2: of He's made it happen in a lot of ways

1975
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,760
Speaker 2: for us, and I think him just expressed in a

1976
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,639
Speaker 2: faith in us has made people who haven't paid attention

1977
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:20,320
Speaker 2: to us maybe take us a little more seriously because

1978
01:47:20,360 --> 01:47:23,280
Speaker 2: Louis he's like, he's like a mafia dude that like,

1979
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:26,840
Speaker 2: you know, you're a made man if you like he

1980
01:47:26,960 --> 01:47:29,759
Speaker 2: kind of like expresses I believe in that, and suddenly

1981
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:31,960
Speaker 2: people go, well, maybe there's something there. And so it

1982
01:47:32,000 --> 01:47:33,519
Speaker 2: was a big thing for us. It would be like

1983
01:47:33,560 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 2: getting a really positive review in a magazine where people

1984
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,080
Speaker 2: read it. It's like that's before anybody kind of took

1985
01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:40,800
Speaker 2: a chance on us.

1986
01:47:42,240 --> 01:47:47,120
Speaker 1: Okay, he had to play in Chicago in a stadium.

1987
01:47:47,160 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 1: What has been You know, You've done a lot of

1988
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:53,640
Speaker 1: work where no one was paying attention other than being enthusiastic.

1989
01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:58,120
Speaker 1: And you know his impromod of being Louis, what is

1990
01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:02,519
Speaker 1: he added into the mix? And what does he foresee

1991
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:04,320
Speaker 1: going down the path? I know what he's told me,

1992
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:05,400
Speaker 1: but I would hear from you.

1993
01:48:07,560 --> 01:48:10,320
Speaker 2: I think he well, I like I can. There's a

1994
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 2: few different ways to talk about it. One is I

1995
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 2: think he knows from just a wealth of experience how

1996
01:48:17,160 --> 01:48:20,280
Speaker 2: to like promote a show that I would just never understand,

1997
01:48:20,479 --> 01:48:22,960
Speaker 2: Like he just knows how to find the people that

1998
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 2: might go to a show and get them that information.

1999
01:48:25,640 --> 01:48:28,799
Speaker 2: So I on a base level, he's just a genius

2000
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 2: when it comes to like how to do that. And

2001
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,120
Speaker 2: then I would say, it's our job to deliver a

2002
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:39,559
Speaker 2: show that is memorable and like you want to come

2003
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:42,760
Speaker 2: back to. So it's like there's a deal there. He's like,

2004
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:45,439
Speaker 2: blow their minds. I'm going to bring him here, blow

2005
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:48,840
Speaker 2: their minds. Like and he whenever we see him, he goes,

2006
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:50,880
Speaker 2: I just need one more song, just one more song,

2007
01:48:51,000 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 2: Like he's always like talking about one I need one

2008
01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:57,000
Speaker 2: more song or two more songs, something like that. And

2009
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:00,320
Speaker 2: I know what he means, but I'm like, it's if

2010
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 2: I knew how to do that, I would just do

2011
01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:05,720
Speaker 2: it for you. But it's not that simple. But I

2012
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:09,960
Speaker 2: think the other side of it, I think he I

2013
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:13,479
Speaker 2: think he like challenges our management and the band and

2014
01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:16,040
Speaker 2: the booking agents to sort of go for it in

2015
01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:20,160
Speaker 2: a way that everybody's so cautious that he's like, why

2016
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:24,720
Speaker 2: would you what? Go go big? Like try it, And

2017
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 2: there's something that's a good person to have as a

2018
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:29,760
Speaker 2: part of the mix in the room, you know, Like,

2019
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:32,320
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of conservative people and he's

2020
01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:36,880
Speaker 2: not like that. He's a dreamer, so he's always like,

2021
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 2: you know, pushing the envelope and getting us and and

2022
01:49:40,320 --> 01:49:42,360
Speaker 2: the other part of it is I think he's he's

2023
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:46,320
Speaker 2: aligned with us in the sense of he's not someone

2024
01:49:46,320 --> 01:49:48,240
Speaker 2: who's gonna throw out a bunch of money and give

2025
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:50,800
Speaker 2: someone a big advance. He's like, if you win, I win,

2026
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:53,320
Speaker 2: and if I win, you win. We're going in on

2027
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:59,759
Speaker 2: this together. That's not like you know, someone's gonna lose.

2028
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 2: And you know what I mean. I think there's like

2029
01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:04,120
Speaker 2: a there's like a we're all in this together aspect

2030
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:08,559
Speaker 2: of this that is. I think that's why his business

2031
01:50:08,560 --> 01:50:11,240
Speaker 2: works because he's like taking a chance right there with you.

2032
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:23,479
Speaker 1: So, how has it worked financially? Not that you want to,

2033
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: but if you stopped playing music right now, is there

2034
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 1: enough money to make it to the end?

2035
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't know, but I've talked to

2036
01:50:32,160 --> 01:50:36,320
Speaker 2: my people, and every once in a while it's something

2037
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:41,600
Speaker 2: I don't like thinking about as far as like I

2038
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:46,599
Speaker 2: feel like it's just a strange side to this, But yeah,

2039
01:50:46,640 --> 01:50:48,679
Speaker 2: I think there's an element of this that if I

2040
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:53,439
Speaker 2: wanted to live a life that was, in my estimation,

2041
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:56,320
Speaker 2: a really good life, I could do that, and that

2042
01:50:56,479 --> 01:51:02,519
Speaker 2: makes music become a choice. But I also think it's

2043
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:05,000
Speaker 2: a funny thing because I was discussing this with Simon

2044
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 2: Felice a few years ago, where we got into music

2045
01:51:08,240 --> 01:51:10,960
Speaker 2: on the back of the nineties and early two thousands,

2046
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:15,000
Speaker 2: when everyone was like, man, there's no money to be

2047
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:17,240
Speaker 2: made in this bit there, and so it was almost

2048
01:51:17,240 --> 01:51:19,400
Speaker 2: like you were joining the Peace Corps or like becoming

2049
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:23,439
Speaker 2: a teacher, where everyone's kind of looking at you like,

2050
01:51:24,080 --> 01:51:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, there's no money, but I'm glad you exist.

2051
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:31,120
Speaker 2: And so to have that flipped on its head, and

2052
01:51:31,160 --> 01:51:34,599
Speaker 2: now people are sometimes doing music to try to make money.

2053
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:37,479
Speaker 2: It's bizarre to me. But I feel like like I

2054
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 2: was standing in front of my house the other day

2055
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 2: and these people were walking by and they were like,

2056
01:51:41,840 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 2: I live in Denver. And these people were walking by

2057
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 2: and they parked the car and they're like, it's a

2058
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:48,360
Speaker 2: beautiful house, and like I looked, I'm like thanks. Man.

2059
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 2: He's like, wait, you live there, and I was like, yeah, yeah,

2060
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:54,679
Speaker 2: I lived there, and I was with my wife and kids.

2061
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:57,559
Speaker 2: And then he turns I don't believe him, and then

2062
01:51:57,600 --> 01:52:01,120
Speaker 2: the person goes, wait, you live there, and he's like yeah.

2063
01:52:01,439 --> 01:52:04,400
Speaker 2: And I was talking to a neighbor and they I

2064
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:06,160
Speaker 2: don't believe him, and I was like, I told my

2065
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:07,719
Speaker 2: wife lear I was like, I think that's the nicest

2066
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:10,240
Speaker 2: thing someone's ever said to me. It is like, I

2067
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 2: don't believe him because we didn't really get into this

2068
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:18,400
Speaker 2: for any of that, and so it feels okay to

2069
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:21,160
Speaker 2: to have things go your way and have something nice

2070
01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:23,160
Speaker 2: because it wasn't the reason. It's just kind of like

2071
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,960
Speaker 2: I could take it or leave it. I enjoy I

2072
01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:29,400
Speaker 2: enjoy parts of it, but really it's just like the

2073
01:52:29,520 --> 01:52:33,000
Speaker 2: joy of I'm sitting here in my like workshop home

2074
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 2: studio thing. This is the best part of it. And

2075
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:39,800
Speaker 2: then music somehow made its ability to buy a house

2076
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:43,920
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but all of it. It's it's

2077
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:46,120
Speaker 2: cool because none of us got into it of that

2078
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 2: era for money. It was the opposite people thought we

2079
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:53,439
Speaker 2: were being more on So in that way there's a

2080
01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:55,960
Speaker 2: guilt free aspect. I remember our first house, like these

2081
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:59,120
Speaker 2: dudes while I was walking that was with my wife

2082
01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 2: and he's like, oh, go back to mommy and Daddy's house,

2083
01:53:01,400 --> 01:53:03,640
Speaker 2: and I was like, all right, man, it's just like

2084
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:08,960
Speaker 2: there's an element of this that I feel like, uh not,

2085
01:53:09,800 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 2: You're just like this is all kind of funny money.

2086
01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:14,679
Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense. There was no promises about this.

2087
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:16,880
Speaker 2: This is just like this happened to be the era

2088
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:18,880
Speaker 2: we were born in. It could have been twenty years

2089
01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:21,839
Speaker 2: ago and I would be in a much different situation.

2090
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 2: It's it's all fucking timing and luck in some of

2091
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:27,559
Speaker 2: that stuff. But the bottom line was I loved music,

2092
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:30,439
Speaker 2: and now this is cool that we're getting paid at

2093
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:31,040
Speaker 2: all to do it.

2094
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 1: So you're going on tour in Europe? What do the

2095
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:39,680
Speaker 1: lumineers mean in Europe? And we now really truly have

2096
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:42,600
Speaker 1: a worldwide business because people can stream your songs or

2097
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 1: not stream your songs all over the world. So what

2098
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:48,080
Speaker 1: do the lumineers mean outside the United States?

2099
01:53:48,560 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I mean, like when we

2100
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:54,160
Speaker 2: go to the UK, the UK has like almost never

2101
01:53:54,200 --> 01:53:58,759
Speaker 2: played us on the radio ever. We were too old

2102
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 2: for BBC one, we're too young for BBC two, they said,

2103
01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:05,000
Speaker 2: and so it's like very grassroots or they heard it

2104
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:06,919
Speaker 2: on like I think they got us on a commercial

2105
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:08,800
Speaker 2: or two, so there's like some way for people to

2106
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:15,080
Speaker 2: hear the song. To me, it's it's it's kind of

2107
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:19,559
Speaker 2: like this underdog thing where it's just we recently got

2108
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:24,240
Speaker 2: to go to Poonie or Pune in India when we

2109
01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:28,000
Speaker 2: played a show. There's like fifteen thousand people there and

2110
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:32,200
Speaker 2: we were like, this is insane, Like you know, suddenly

2111
01:54:32,240 --> 01:54:35,200
Speaker 2: Spotify exists and smartphones are in everyone's hands all over

2112
01:54:35,240 --> 01:54:39,760
Speaker 2: the world. There's places that English just the second language

2113
01:54:40,160 --> 01:54:44,720
Speaker 2: and they're playing to a large crowd of people. It's

2114
01:54:44,760 --> 01:54:47,760
Speaker 2: it kind of blows my mind. I don't I think.

2115
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 2: I think country to country it's pretty different. Like if

2116
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:52,880
Speaker 2: you take Ireland, I think Ireland likes us because of

2117
01:54:52,880 --> 01:54:57,760
Speaker 2: the storytelling, but it's it seems to differ place to place,

2118
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 2: and it's like almost like not for me to understand.

2119
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:05,120
Speaker 2: But like you know, a I would take a band

2120
01:55:05,160 --> 01:55:08,000
Speaker 2: I've always loved, like growing up, like The Killers. The

2121
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:10,840
Speaker 2: Killers are like probably arguably bigger in Europe than in

2122
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:13,840
Speaker 2: the States, and I feel like we're bigger in the

2123
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:17,280
Speaker 2: States than we are in other places. But we've gone

2124
01:55:17,360 --> 01:55:21,520
Speaker 2: back so many times to to Italy and to Spain

2125
01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:25,240
Speaker 2: and to Ireland and Germany that you start to see

2126
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 2: it slowly grow and it feels like trustworthy or something.

2127
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:31,080
Speaker 2: I don't know how the right way to say it,

2128
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 2: but it feels like at least something that feels like,

2129
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:38,040
Speaker 2: all right, maybe this is a real thing versus in

2130
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:40,840
Speaker 2: the very beginning. It was like when we first went

2131
01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:44,000
Speaker 2: to Europe on our first album, and then we returned

2132
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 2: on the second album, I think our ticket sales like

2133
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:50,720
Speaker 2: divided in half, and it was kind of shocking. It

2134
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:53,640
Speaker 2: was like, whoa, no one's here, what the hell's going on?

2135
01:55:54,160 --> 01:55:56,880
Speaker 2: And then we we've sort of like, over the next

2136
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:01,040
Speaker 2: two to three albums, have built everything back up to

2137
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 2: where it once was. And I think that's an interesting

2138
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:08,880
Speaker 2: thing to happen to somebody. It's like you realize in

2139
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 2: the beginning, it's kind of like a moment in time

2140
01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:14,720
Speaker 2: and you're and then you slowly grow back into this

2141
01:56:14,800 --> 01:56:17,880
Speaker 2: original thing that you thought was so easy, and it

2142
01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 2: was like a lot of hard work to get back

2143
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:21,720
Speaker 2: to the thing you thought was easy or it thought

2144
01:56:21,800 --> 01:56:24,200
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I guess it just happens. Like it

2145
01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:26,440
Speaker 2: doesn't just happen. It went away just as fast as

2146
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:27,000
Speaker 2: it happened.

2147
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Once when somebody listens to you. You're very much

2148
01:56:35,960 --> 01:56:38,840
Speaker 1: a thinking guy and a little bit like Lloyd Doebler

2149
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 1: in the movie say anything, you know. I don't want

2150
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 1: to sell anything. I don't want to believe in blah

2151
01:56:43,640 --> 01:56:48,520
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. So I don't know, Jerr, is

2152
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:52,800
Speaker 1: this just okay, We're going on the road. People know

2153
01:56:52,920 --> 01:56:57,720
Speaker 1: who we are, We're obviously doing this podcast. But to

2154
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 1: what degree, or you or somebody on social media, to

2155
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 1: what degree is this being worked? Because it doesn't look

2156
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:05,600
Speaker 1: like you're working.

2157
01:57:05,320 --> 01:57:09,480
Speaker 2: It worked in terms of like advertising it or something

2158
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:09,840
Speaker 2: like that.

2159
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, promoting it, making people aware of it.

2160
01:57:12,640 --> 01:57:15,880
Speaker 2: I mean, my wife always jokes that we just married

2161
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:19,520
Speaker 2: the wrong people because we're like not married to famous people,

2162
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 2: and that would have helped our career a lot. No,

2163
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:24,520
Speaker 2: there's not. I mean, I think we try to promote

2164
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:27,320
Speaker 2: it in the way that we would receive. We put

2165
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:30,040
Speaker 2: up a couple of billboards with lyrics on it. I

2166
01:57:30,040 --> 01:57:32,000
Speaker 2: think we want to send some lyric books out to

2167
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:36,320
Speaker 2: some fans. We sent like tape recorders out with a

2168
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,040
Speaker 2: new song or new album on it to certain people.

2169
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:42,920
Speaker 2: But it's not overly done because I find a lot

2170
01:57:42,920 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 2: of that cheesy and probably not authentic to like, I

2171
01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:50,160
Speaker 2: don't think we'd come off doing it well anyway. There's

2172
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 2: some people are just naturals. They're like, that's what they're

2173
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:55,000
Speaker 2: about and they know how to do that. I just

2174
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:58,840
Speaker 2: I don't and I don't care. So I live with

2175
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:03,520
Speaker 2: the I live with the understated rollout and like, you know,

2176
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:06,240
Speaker 2: let the chips fall where they may. But like, in

2177
01:58:06,280 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 2: another way, we've we put a lot of behind the

2178
01:58:08,120 --> 01:58:10,160
Speaker 2: scenes work into Like there were a lot of years

2179
01:58:10,160 --> 01:58:15,000
Speaker 2: where we were showing up to radio station early morning

2180
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:18,040
Speaker 2: the day of a gig and playing an in studio

2181
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:21,200
Speaker 2: session and doing an interview. We did a lot of that,

2182
01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:24,360
Speaker 2: I think to try to like plant seeds of maybe

2183
01:58:24,360 --> 01:58:27,440
Speaker 2: the radio will support us in some ways, or you know,

2184
01:58:27,480 --> 01:58:31,240
Speaker 2: there's different ways to do it. But I sit back

2185
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:36,480
Speaker 2: and total admiration of someone like Jack White, who can

2186
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:40,480
Speaker 2: he can promote something and somehow it's just so cool

2187
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:43,000
Speaker 2: the way he does it, And that's just don't I don't.

2188
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 2: I don't have that like same instinct. I can't. I wish,

2189
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:50,800
Speaker 2: I wish he could help us. But at the same time,

2190
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,400
Speaker 2: there's a charm to like letting people find it. I

2191
01:58:53,400 --> 01:58:55,720
Speaker 2: think they feel like they own it a little more

2192
01:58:56,040 --> 01:58:58,600
Speaker 2: if it's on their terms, which is why hit songs

2193
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:01,680
Speaker 2: don't feel as personal to people. I think they just

2194
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:04,560
Speaker 2: feel like they were shoved into your face, and if

2195
01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:07,560
Speaker 2: they're good, it's almost a surprise, you know. It's like

2196
01:59:08,440 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 2: it's like, I'm sure Bruno Mars has some amazing songs,

2197
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:13,560
Speaker 2: but all of them feel like they're just like pushed

2198
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:17,560
Speaker 2: directly into my ear and like it's a little aggressive

2199
01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:21,160
Speaker 2: versus like I don't know. I got into Time out

2200
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:24,040
Speaker 2: of Mind, that Dylan record from like ninety nine, I

2201
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 2: want to say ninety seven, and I listened to that

2202
01:59:28,040 --> 01:59:31,880
Speaker 2: NonStop this whole recording session. I don't know why. It

2203
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:33,760
Speaker 2: just gave me a lot of comfort and I kept listening.

2204
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 2: I've still listened to it, and it's kind of like Rodriguez.

2205
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 2: There's these albums that I get into. They feel like

2206
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 2: mine because nobody forced me to listen to it, And

2207
01:59:44,520 --> 01:59:47,360
Speaker 2: maybe that's part of it. Maybe that's like I mean,

2208
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:50,080
Speaker 2: we were we were sitting in with Zach Bryan. I

2209
01:59:50,120 --> 01:59:54,200
Speaker 2: think he's an example of someone who the fans tend

2210
01:59:54,240 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 2: to feel like his music is their music, and I

2211
01:59:57,640 --> 02:00:00,280
Speaker 2: think part of that is that he released this is

2212
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:04,200
Speaker 2: a lot and doesn't really like having an extravagant roll out,

2213
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:07,880
Speaker 2: and it's just like a here it is unadorned. This

2214
02:00:07,960 --> 02:00:11,360
Speaker 2: is it direct to you. And you know there's something

2215
02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:13,440
Speaker 2: to be learned from that because everybody thinks that they

2216
02:00:13,480 --> 02:00:16,080
Speaker 2: know what they're doing and how to promote a record. Well,

2217
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:20,200
Speaker 2: like he's kind of broken that mold, at least for himself.

2218
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:21,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how many people could pull it off,

2219
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 2: but he's a good example of like, hopefully some good

2220
02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:26,800
Speaker 2: music can find its own way.

2221
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 1: Well, Wes, you know we did that piano together. I've

2222
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:34,640
Speaker 1: seen the lumineers, but I'd be lying if I didn't

2223
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:38,240
Speaker 1: say I was anxious, Like I knew you were sort

2224
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:40,120
Speaker 1: of a low key talker. I said, well, you know

2225
02:00:40,240 --> 02:00:42,440
Speaker 1: house is going to play out? Am I going to

2226
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,120
Speaker 1: be able to go? But you know, I didn't know

2227
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:48,600
Speaker 1: what a thinker you were, and you know how you're

2228
02:00:48,720 --> 02:00:53,360
Speaker 1: true to your beliefs. So it's been a real pleasure

2229
02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:56,600
Speaker 1: talking to you, and I know my audience will very

2230
02:00:56,680 --> 02:01:00,240
Speaker 1: much enjoy listening to you. So thanks for doing this.

2231
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and I revealed I was gay at one point.

2232
02:01:04,480 --> 02:01:07,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you're gonna see it on GMG and in five minutes.

2233
02:01:08,160 --> 02:01:10,400
Speaker 2: You know, that's the way to promote this record now

2234
02:01:10,400 --> 02:01:12,200
Speaker 2: that we're talking about.

2235
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:14,720
Speaker 1: Okay, just before we go, you just put this hat

2236
02:01:14,800 --> 02:01:17,960
Speaker 1: back on. This is AWD. Is that the logo from

2237
02:01:18,040 --> 02:01:18,919
Speaker 1: the super Room.

2238
02:01:19,360 --> 02:01:22,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like I got it at of trendy

2239
02:01:23,160 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 2: shoe stares as all well dead, but I I think

2240
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:29,080
Speaker 2: it is. I think it's like you'll see it on

2241
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:29,880
Speaker 2: the Superrew thing.

2242
02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:32,960
Speaker 1: Well, do you have a suber U. I do.

2243
02:01:33,200 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 2: I have a super U out and the Catskills and

2244
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:39,320
Speaker 2: I have a it's unrelated, but I have a Toyota

2245
02:01:39,400 --> 02:01:42,560
Speaker 2: land Cruiser here that I've had for like ten years.

2246
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:46,600
Speaker 2: That that's my real baby. The superw is just a beater.

2247
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:47,120
Speaker 2: You know.

2248
02:01:48,040 --> 02:01:50,800
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, what year is your land Cruiser?

2249
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:53,320
Speaker 2: Eighty seven? Nineteen eighty seven.

2250
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:56,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's the giant station wagon style, not the

2251
02:01:56,880 --> 02:01:58,160
Speaker 1: one that looks like a jeep.

2252
02:01:59,160 --> 02:02:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I think so it's kind of that

2253
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:04,960
Speaker 2: classic like if you see the drug dealers in the

2254
02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 2: old movies or old like Netflix has that, uh Narcos, Yeah,

2255
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:14,280
Speaker 2: all driving that, they're all driving they are, Yeah, and

2256
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:15,400
Speaker 2: that's my that's mine.

2257
02:02:16,280 --> 02:02:18,800
Speaker 1: So you have a place in the Catskills yeah.

2258
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:20,720
Speaker 2: I have a place in a place called Palinville. It's

2259
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:24,839
Speaker 2: right in your Woodstock. We made the last four records

2260
02:02:24,840 --> 02:02:28,840
Speaker 2: out there, so it's just like the first. We were

2261
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:31,080
Speaker 2: gonna make our second record. We had found a studio

2262
02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:34,640
Speaker 2: in the woods of Colorado in the middle of nowhere,

2263
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:40,400
Speaker 2: and like three weeks from about to record there, the

2264
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:43,440
Speaker 2: owner called me or called our management and said the

2265
02:02:43,480 --> 02:02:46,960
Speaker 2: price it tripled because I guess they found out our

2266
02:02:47,000 --> 02:02:49,360
Speaker 2: band or something who we were, and we were like

2267
02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:54,600
Speaker 2: what No, So we ended up changing plans and going

2268
02:02:54,600 --> 02:02:57,320
Speaker 2: out to the cat Skills for the first time, which

2269
02:02:57,360 --> 02:02:59,200
Speaker 2: turned out to be like an hour north of where

2270
02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:02,760
Speaker 2: we JOURNI up just fell in love with the area,

2271
02:03:02,800 --> 02:03:05,360
Speaker 2: and so I have a few yurts out there in

2272
02:03:05,400 --> 02:03:08,080
Speaker 2: a house and it's like a little bit of a

2273
02:03:08,120 --> 02:03:11,040
Speaker 2: compound where we spent a lot of time. We make

2274
02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:13,960
Speaker 2: records out there. I produced records with David Barrett out there,

2275
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:16,920
Speaker 2: so it's like a beautiful Do do you spend time

2276
02:03:16,960 --> 02:03:17,920
Speaker 2: out there? Have you been out there?

2277
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah?

2278
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2279
02:03:19,240 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2280
02:03:20,120 --> 02:03:22,600
Speaker 2: Where do you go to Woodstock or where do you go? No?

2281
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 1: I mean I've been to the Catskills. I worked in

2282
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 1: the Catskills, which this is like before you were born.

2283
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:30,840
Speaker 1: This is like the sixties and seventies.

2284
02:03:31,160 --> 02:03:33,040
Speaker 2: But like, what do you remember where all.

2285
02:03:32,960 --> 02:03:37,680
Speaker 1: Those hotels went out of business? Yeah, okay, and there

2286
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:40,440
Speaker 1: were summer camps there. I worked at a summer camp.

2287
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:43,880
Speaker 1: You go to Manaicello, I remember, you know, actually seeing

2288
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:45,920
Speaker 1: the Woodstock movie for the third time at a theater

2289
02:03:46,000 --> 02:03:48,960
Speaker 1: in mana Celo and going to the Delhi. So yes,

2290
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:51,919
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in Connecticut. That's not awesome,

2291
02:03:52,480 --> 02:03:54,280
Speaker 1: so believe me, I know the cats skills.

2292
02:03:54,360 --> 02:03:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're I mean, it's just kind of like

2293
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:00,960
Speaker 2: a really beautiful place and it's close to the city

2294
02:04:00,960 --> 02:04:02,960
Speaker 2: in a weird way to have like both of those

2295
02:04:02,960 --> 02:04:07,320
Speaker 2: places nearby each other. But yeah, we go out to Hudson,

2296
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:12,400
Speaker 2: New York a lot like Sogerate's Woodstock and then Hunter

2297
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:13,680
Speaker 2: Mountains just around the corner.

2298
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 1: So wait, wait, wait, wait wait Are you a skier

2299
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:17,400
Speaker 1: a little bit? Yeah?

2300
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:19,240
Speaker 2: I snowboard ski?

2301
02:04:20,040 --> 02:04:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well Hunter Mountains you know with ski area, yep. Yeah,

2302
02:04:24,400 --> 02:04:28,320
Speaker 1: you live in Denver. Need to partake of the mountains.

2303
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:31,720
Speaker 2: A little bit, I like genuinely don't. I generally don't

2304
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:33,520
Speaker 2: do it that often, only because I don't want to

2305
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 2: fuck up an entire tour by like tearing an MC

2306
02:04:36,160 --> 02:04:41,520
Speaker 2: and a c L. But like, weirdly enough, the epic

2307
02:04:41,560 --> 02:04:45,760
Speaker 2: pass that you can buy for vail Rea. They that

2308
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:49,400
Speaker 2: works at Hunter. I know it's wild. So you like

2309
02:04:50,160 --> 02:04:52,240
Speaker 2: Simon Fleece came out here a couple of years ago

2310
02:04:52,320 --> 02:04:55,200
Speaker 2: and he's like, my past works out at your spot

2311
02:04:56,200 --> 02:04:58,000
Speaker 2: in Colorado's wild man.

2312
02:04:59,360 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 1: So since you grew up in New Jersey and you

2313
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:07,400
Speaker 1: have a place in the Catskills. Because no, the world

2314
02:05:07,520 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 1: is smaller than ever because of the Internet. But there

2315
02:05:09,680 --> 02:05:12,680
Speaker 1: are differences between the East Coast and the West coast.

2316
02:05:13,080 --> 02:05:15,960
Speaker 1: So what is the difference between the East Coast and Colorado?

2317
02:05:17,240 --> 02:05:20,040
Speaker 2: Pretty big? I mean I felt like the East Coast

2318
02:05:20,120 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 2: was like, at least music making wise, it was pretty doggy,

2319
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:30,680
Speaker 2: dog pretty like old school competitive Your gain is my loss.

2320
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:33,120
Speaker 2: And then in Colorado was a lot more like there's

2321
02:05:33,120 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 2: a lot more Kumbaya in the air. Like stealth helping

2322
02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 2: us right off the bat was one of the biggest

2323
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:42,560
Speaker 2: things that happened to us, you know, so I think

2324
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:46,600
Speaker 2: part of it. I mean I remember walking to work

2325
02:05:47,160 --> 02:05:50,840
Speaker 2: in Colorado and the guys I said to a guy,

2326
02:05:50,840 --> 02:05:53,280
Speaker 2: how you doing, Like that's just an East coast. How

2327
02:05:53,280 --> 02:05:56,440
Speaker 2: you doing right? And he was like pretty good the weather,

2328
02:05:56,520 --> 02:05:59,240
Speaker 2: and he like launched into this explanation and I was like,

2329
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:02,880
Speaker 2: is this real? This guy's like talking to me right now.

2330
02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:06,880
Speaker 2: It was so friendly, and I was I was I

2331
02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:09,600
Speaker 2: found myself when I first moved here, like what's the catch?

2332
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 2: What are you trying to do to me? What are

2333
02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:13,880
Speaker 2: you trying to sell me? And it's just pretty kind,

2334
02:06:14,000 --> 02:06:16,360
Speaker 2: you know, Like so I had to adjust to that,

2335
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,200
Speaker 2: and I think people actually found me to be quite cold,

2336
02:06:19,920 --> 02:06:23,200
Speaker 2: hence the song asshole. But it was like I think

2337
02:06:23,360 --> 02:06:27,440
Speaker 2: I was pretty like unnerved by how nice everyone was being,

2338
02:06:27,760 --> 02:06:30,280
Speaker 2: and I was like I didn't find it very authentic.

2339
02:06:30,360 --> 02:06:35,080
Speaker 2: You know, No one's just nice. And then I've been

2340
02:06:35,080 --> 02:06:37,000
Speaker 2: here long enough where it's just normal to me now,

2341
02:06:37,280 --> 02:06:39,200
Speaker 2: and when I go back East, I can kind of

2342
02:06:39,200 --> 02:06:42,440
Speaker 2: switch back to that and I definitely understand it a

2343
02:06:42,440 --> 02:06:42,960
Speaker 2: lot more.

2344
02:06:43,240 --> 02:06:43,360
Speaker 1: So.

2345
02:06:43,400 --> 02:06:45,320
Speaker 2: We brought my wife's family out to New York City

2346
02:06:45,360 --> 02:06:50,080
Speaker 2: and then the cats goes for Christmas and they were

2347
02:06:50,080 --> 02:06:53,240
Speaker 2: like they had never seen people hawking at each other

2348
02:06:54,160 --> 02:06:57,800
Speaker 2: or yelling at each other, and I was like, this

2349
02:06:57,840 --> 02:06:59,640
Speaker 2: is just normal to me. I was like, I was

2350
02:06:59,680 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 2: going to the Museum of Natural History as a kid

2351
02:07:02,680 --> 02:07:05,200
Speaker 2: and seeing like drug addicts on the street and like

2352
02:07:05,680 --> 02:07:10,000
Speaker 2: homeless people and just wild behavior at a sort of

2353
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:13,280
Speaker 2: young age that this is like they're in their twenties now,

2354
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:16,120
Speaker 2: like her brothers in his forties and their kids are

2355
02:07:16,200 --> 02:07:17,880
Speaker 2: their teens, and they were just like, well did you

2356
02:07:17,880 --> 02:07:18,360
Speaker 2: see that? Guy?

2357
02:07:18,440 --> 02:07:19,160
Speaker 1: Yelled the other.

2358
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 2: Guy like yeah, that's like a day in New York,

2359
02:07:22,120 --> 02:07:25,560
Speaker 2: Like what's the big deal? So I felt lucky. And

2360
02:07:25,560 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 2: when I moved here, the biggest thing I noticed was

2361
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:32,880
Speaker 2: like New York and New Jersey, the sort of tri

2362
02:07:32,960 --> 02:07:35,080
Speaker 2: state area as a whole, has this hustle to it.

2363
02:07:35,720 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 2: There is an urgency to everything you're doing that I

2364
02:07:40,480 --> 02:07:44,400
Speaker 2: was out hustling people just working normally, so it prepared me.

2365
02:07:44,720 --> 02:07:47,800
Speaker 2: I had advantages here just because people were a lot

2366
02:07:47,840 --> 02:07:49,280
Speaker 2: more chill, and I was like, what what are we

2367
02:07:49,320 --> 02:07:52,480
Speaker 2: doing here? Like what's going on? Like when is band rehearsal?

2368
02:07:52,520 --> 02:07:52,680
Speaker 1: What?

2369
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:55,240
Speaker 2: Like I need my coffee, let's go. Like no one

2370
02:07:55,480 --> 02:07:59,080
Speaker 2: was like like that, So it was a cool thing

2371
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:01,080
Speaker 2: to come out here and be like, oh, maybe in

2372
02:08:01,120 --> 02:08:04,440
Speaker 2: New Jersey I was average speed, but here I'm like working.

2373
02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:08,160
Speaker 1: At listen, I can talk to you forever. We're gonna

2374
02:08:08,200 --> 02:08:12,360
Speaker 1: call it a close now. In any event, till next time.

2375
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:14,120
Speaker 1: This is Bob left six