Speaker 1: Native lamp Pod is the production of iHeart Radio in
Speaker 1: partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Speaker 2: Well Come, we come, We Come, We Come, We come.
Speaker 3: Welcome Okay, welcome home, y'all. This is episode eighty two
Speaker 3: of Native Lampod, where we give you our breakdown of
Speaker 3: all things politics and culture. We are your hosts. I'm
Speaker 3: Angela Raie. There's Tiffany Cross and Andrew Gillim. What's happening, everybody?
Speaker 3: What's going on? What are we talking about today?
Speaker 4: So much?
Speaker 3: I don't know what that.
Speaker 5: Not making a comment? It was like you heard I was.
Speaker 4: I was looking at the script.
Speaker 3: What are you saying?
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 5: It was like you like we made it through?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well we were like.
Speaker 1: He was waiting, like if people on the lease ready
Speaker 1: to say something. We are talking about a lot of
Speaker 1: talking about though.
Speaker 4: Yes, we're talking about a lot of good stuff.
Speaker 1: And if you like what we're talking about, please be
Speaker 1: sure to tell you people to tune in, share this
Speaker 1: podcast with a friend because you don't want to miss this.
Speaker 1: We have on today the Mario Solomon Simmons. Yeah, from firm,
Speaker 1: the Mario Simon Simmons, who went to law school with you, Angela.
Speaker 1: I believe. So you guys have known each other for
Speaker 1: a long time.
Speaker 3: Yes, not exactly National Black Glaston's Association.
Speaker 1: Forgive me, that's where you guys met, but back when
Speaker 1: you were in law school. And he is a Tulsa
Speaker 1: descendant himself of the Tulsa Mascer, but he's also the
Speaker 1: attorney for the survivors of the Tulsa Masker. So yes,
Speaker 1: there are survivors. Two survivors who are I think one
Speaker 1: hundred eleven and one hundred and twelve. He'll tell us
Speaker 1: when he gets on. So I'm really excited to talk
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 3: I want to shout out because and I'll bring this
Speaker 3: up when de Mario's on. But when the Mario was
Speaker 3: in law school on then the boss of board, he
Speaker 3: was our reparations chair at that time. Working with yeah,
Speaker 3: working with Professor Charles Ogletree. Yeah, for sure, we're working
Speaker 3: with Professor Charles Ogletree. This has been a life passion
Speaker 3: of his and reparations on every side. Right, we know
Speaker 3: that there's our reparations that our communities owe from mass
Speaker 3: incarceration to things that cities municipalities did to us, redlining,
Speaker 3: and of course mass there's just like the one in Tulsa,
Speaker 3: and then on that Andrew. We know these things, of course, enflament.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, of course they do. They cost money, which
Speaker 5: is why we want you to tune into our mini
Speaker 5: pot on Friday, because we're gonna be having a conversation
Speaker 5: about the implications of this disastrous quote unquote big beautiful
Speaker 5: mess that Trump and the Republicans in Washington want to
Speaker 5: push down our throats. We want to talk about who's impacted,
Speaker 5: what are the stories we're not hearing on the news,
Speaker 5: and why it ought to matter to all of us,
Speaker 5: whether we are working class, we're working poor, middle class,
Speaker 5: upper middle or if you're in the top one percent.
Speaker 5: You're listening their implications to.
Speaker 3: Everybody, and that's just it. So one thing that you know,
Speaker 3: we all love is when we get to hear from
Speaker 3: our community. Tiffy in those comments, child, I love us
Speaker 3: for doing it. She gives us the comments update. But
Speaker 3: we also love when y'all send in videos all over
Speaker 3: the country, even doing the State of the People power
Speaker 3: to it, and we have heard over and over again
Speaker 3: how much y'all love the show. I almost thought I
Speaker 3: was gonna lose my life in Jackson because Tip's flight
Speaker 3: got canceled. The people were hot. Andrew. You ran out
Speaker 3: of there and they were like, no, where is Andrew.
Speaker 5: Listen, this one sister met me in the airport. She
Speaker 5: gave me to the airport. She was gonna have to
Speaker 5: fly out later, but she knew I was going at me. Yeah,
Speaker 5: she left to go.
Speaker 3: So what I want to tell y'all one, from the
Speaker 3: bottom of our hearts, thank you so much for loving
Speaker 3: on us. And every time we say welcome home, you
Speaker 3: guys welcome us home three hundred times over. We are
Speaker 3: so so grateful. And because we're grateful, we're gonna make
Speaker 3: sure that we do what Tiffany always tells us to do,
Speaker 3: and that is to get in these listener comments. So
Speaker 3: let's start with the first one.
Speaker 7: Hey n check it out. So you talk about democracy,
Speaker 7: and for one, the quote should be placed on the people,
Speaker 7: the American people, who aren't fault for the situation that
Speaker 7: we're in because between ninety million people did not even
Speaker 7: take it upon themselves to go to the ballot.
Speaker 2: Box last year.
Speaker 7: On top of that, you had another seventy five million
Speaker 7: vote for an authoritarian So if you want to put
Speaker 7: the blame on the media, you want to put the
Speaker 7: blame on the legislature at Allso no, you've put the
Speaker 7: blame on the people. The people get the the government
Speaker 7: they deserve.
Speaker 6: If you don't vote and you vote the wrong way.
Speaker 5: You get what you deserve.
Speaker 7: So you guys need to put more responsibility on the voters.
Speaker 7: And I know that Angela's doing her tour and try
Speaker 7: to get people involved in all something. That's what you
Speaker 7: have to do. But you got to be honest the
Speaker 7: people of the hobble. There's too many people sitting around saying, oh,
Speaker 7: this doesn't work. It works if you vote the write
Speaker 7: people in office, it works. And whatever dream you guys
Speaker 7: are concocting about some other form, it's come on, stop
Speaker 7: being ridiculous. It's democracy. But it's democracy that people are
Speaker 7: part of.
Speaker 3: Okay, friend, just start out. I appreciate you sitting in
Speaker 3: the video. Did you say video the video? Friend, But
Speaker 3: let me just say this. First of all, you had
Speaker 3: you real comfortable. I am so glad you are welcome.
Speaker 3: All you were so comfortable you walked down the street
Speaker 3: with Autumn Damn's horn hunting us so we could even
Speaker 3: hear part of the question. But I did hear the
Speaker 3: very stern rebuke, and I would invite you in to
Speaker 3: the same process that we have gone down, which is
Speaker 3: to listen. We have really taken this sea, and I
Speaker 3: think all of us really really have in different ways.
Speaker 3: We're listening to different groups, having different kinds of conversations,
Speaker 3: but we are all I think listening now in ways
Speaker 3: that we didn't before the election, with more curiosity, wonder
Speaker 3: maybe bewilderment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, literally too right.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 4: I just don't know.
Speaker 3: That ninety million people decide to sit out something where
Speaker 3: they feel empowered. I just don't know that that's true.
Speaker 3: I don't know that people who have taken on the approach,
Speaker 3: even though this isn't necessarily mine all the time the
Speaker 3: lesser of two evils, and they make a calculated decision.
Speaker 3: We talk a lot about on this podcast of us
Speaker 3: having to regularly, us having to regularly tap into a
Speaker 3: harm reduction strategy rather than like the abundant choice of
Speaker 3: what we know will represent our best interests even when
Speaker 3: we do the work of issuing demands or having an agenda.
Speaker 3: And so I just would challenge us on like telling
Speaker 3: people that this is what they deserve, you know, when
Speaker 3: they never gotten what we really deserve, like we ain't
Speaker 3: even ask to be here, you know, like this is
Speaker 3: where we are now. We're making the best of things
Speaker 3: and our people have been making. I shouldn't even say
Speaker 3: the best thing. We're making the good of things or
Speaker 3: the all right of things, just to get by. And
Speaker 3: so I just I appreciate the perspective. It definitely is
Speaker 3: not mine. But I'm gonna yield to my co host. Well,
Speaker 3: so I don't lecture back.
Speaker 1: I I hear him and I this ninety million figure.
Speaker 1: I wonder like where that comes from. Maybe ninety million
Speaker 1: people didn't vote. You know that that's probably with you.
Speaker 1: That sounds about accurate. I can give you the exact figures,
Speaker 1: but they're percentages. In twenty twenty four, in the presidential election,
Speaker 1: seventy three, just over seventy three percent of the voting
Speaker 1: age population registered to vote. Just over sixty five percent
Speaker 1: actually voted. So when we say ninety million, which could
Speaker 1: be accurate, that's not too far off from where we
Speaker 1: always are. So you have to be like, I know
Speaker 1: that might sound like a stark number, but in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: sixty seven percent of eligible voters cast ballots. That was
Speaker 1: a sizeable number. Particularly given that it was COVID in
Speaker 1: the twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, and twenty twenty two elections.
Speaker 1: These are midterm years. These were some of the biggest
Speaker 1: election numbers. We saw about a third of registered voters
Speaker 1: did not vote.
Speaker 4: So that ninety million number wouldn't seem so start.
Speaker 1: We've had way more people set out elections.
Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, one hundred million people did not vote.
Speaker 1: This is a big year when you had no more
Speaker 1: Obama on the ballot, but you had Hillary Clinton. And
Speaker 1: let me just say, I'm getting this information from the
Speaker 1: Census Census dot gov, and you know, I cross referenced
Speaker 1: them with Pew and Brookings and just make sure that
Speaker 1: the numbers align. So twenty sixteen, one hundred million people
Speaker 1: did not vote. In twenty twelve, you had turnout declined
Speaker 1: from one hundred and thirty one million voters in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight to one hundred and twenty six million
Speaker 1: voters and twenty twelve, ninety three million people did not
Speaker 1: vote in twenty twelve. Here's where it gets interesting. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, when you had Obama on the ballot,
Speaker 1: black voters, as we always do, consistently across the board
Speaker 1: showed up in impressive numbers. We over indexed at the
Speaker 1: ballot box. However, in two thousand and eight, you had
Speaker 1: the fewest number of white voters. The white voters did
Speaker 1: not participate. In twenty twenty four, you had the most
Speaker 1: number of white vot voters participate. If every single black
Speaker 1: person voted, we would not be able to outvote white America.
Speaker 1: So I got a real challenge with suggesting that the
Speaker 1: black people who voted, who didn't vote, who didn't even
Speaker 1: have an option to vote, deserve what we've gotten. And
Speaker 1: I want to just honor you, brother, for one taking
Speaker 1: the time. You're clearly busy because you had to record it,
Speaker 1: like Angela said, walking down the streets. So just for
Speaker 1: taking the time to tune into us and taking the
Speaker 1: time to express your opinion because a lot of people
Speaker 1: feel like you. I hear that from a lot of people,
Speaker 1: and so I honored that.
Speaker 4: I really do.
Speaker 1: But I think once we dig into the data and
Speaker 1: just look at this landscape, it's hard to outdo white folks.
Speaker 1: They remain undefeated. And I think that is and when
Speaker 1: I say white folks, it is the idea of whiteness.
Speaker 1: The idea of this ruling class, and so I you know,
Speaker 1: Angeline talked about us being in a space of curiosity,
Speaker 1: and the one thing that I can walk away with
Speaker 1: even outside of what's happened here in America, I just
Speaker 1: this week alone, lately, but definitely this week, I just
Speaker 1: haven't been feeling so smart, you know, I haven't felt
Speaker 1: so informed. I have felt like you could take all
Speaker 1: that I know and fit it in a thimble. I
Speaker 1: am just consumed by all the things I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like exploring why not, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: I know about what happens here in America, Like I
Speaker 1: know about that, but I mean just the exploration of
Speaker 1: ideas and ideology and history and societies and you know,
Speaker 1: how this how we came to function in this world.
Speaker 1: And the more I read about things that happen, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand years ago, it gives insight into where
Speaker 1: things might be going. And I just I hope I
Speaker 1: invite everybody, we as a collective, invite everybody into that
Speaker 1: space of curiosity, because even that perspective of we got
Speaker 1: to blame the people, I get that that's a righteous
Speaker 1: anger because you are probably impacted and you're looking at
Speaker 1: somebody else like you didn't vote, and because of you,
Speaker 1: this is what happened. I just want to keep in
Speaker 1: mind who the enemy of all this is, who invited this?
Speaker 1: They're literally is and this is my challenge, and I'm
Speaker 1: my co host. I looked at them every week to
Speaker 1: give me some hope. You know, like we try, we
Speaker 1: out here try and just like yo, But when I
Speaker 1: look to what's happening, I don't know how we outdo whiteness,
Speaker 1: especially when a lot of y'all are saying f everybody
Speaker 1: else and we just going in alone, just with the
Speaker 1: black people.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm andrewing you right now because you are go
Speaker 3: for it. Yes, I just and I don't even want
Speaker 3: to cut you off long, just yes to this, because
Speaker 3: I don't understand how we think our math mass Like
Speaker 3: you don't have the luxury of sitting things out. You
Speaker 3: don't have the luxury of saying, forget everybody else. It's
Speaker 3: us on our own. Us on our own is a
Speaker 3: strong twelve percent booth, maybe thirteen on a good day
Speaker 3: if you count some of the migrants.
Speaker 4: So that's the thing that is maddening to me.
Speaker 3: I will say tif that this curiosity point is so important.
Speaker 3: We've been doing a lot of rebuken, a lot of
Speaker 3: telling people what they ain't doing, and it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: And I think the bigger point to me from the
Speaker 3: earlier part of what you were saying is ninety million people.
Speaker 3: When is it one hundred and seventy or one hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty million I voted this year? I mean, sorry,
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: This year, one hundred and seventy four million people were
Speaker 1: one hundred seventy four. One hundred and fifty four million
Speaker 1: people voted.
Speaker 3: One p fifty four. It says too many numbers. I
Speaker 3: can't keep up, but one hundred and fifty four million
Speaker 3: people voted. Ninety million is too high. Ninety four million
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen is too high. In a lot of
Speaker 3: places where there's compulsory voting, the turnout is much higher.
Speaker 3: We don't have that. We have the choice and the
Speaker 3: freedom to do so. It bothers me. I don't care
Speaker 3: what election year it is. It bothers me that that
Speaker 3: many people sit out, and I want to know what
Speaker 3: has to change for them to get in the game.
Speaker 3: Just on that piece, And I'm not saying that should
Speaker 3: be the fullness of their political experience or their involvement.
Speaker 3: But that's the piece, right, I'm just like, what is
Speaker 3: making you sit out for something that's so important? And
Speaker 3: I think for a lot of people, and this is
Speaker 3: part of what I've learned that's hard. It's a cold truth.
Speaker 3: For a lot of people, this is nowhere near the
Speaker 3: most important thing they're dealing with when they're making decisions
Speaker 3: about whether or not they're going to sit with the
Speaker 3: at the bedside of a family member that's dying, if
Speaker 3: they're you know, making a decision about whether they're going
Speaker 3: to go vote or bail their child out of jail,
Speaker 3: whether or not they can pay the light bill, if
Speaker 3: they make if they take their car down to the
Speaker 3: precinct to vote, will they be able to get to work?
Speaker 3: So it's like, that's the thing that is the part
Speaker 3: of democracy that ain't right.
Speaker 4: It's not on that.
Speaker 1: I think it's a capitalism, a belief like do I
Speaker 1: believe in this enough to participate? Andrew, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: have your own thoughts, but I just want to kick
Speaker 1: off with a question because we've never had that many people,
Speaker 1: like even when after the Voting Rights Act passed, like
Speaker 1: we were still numbers were still on par with two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, and we haven't disaggregated these numbers by race,
Speaker 1: but even in nineteen sixty five, like the amount of
Speaker 1: people who participated in the election, and it wasn't every
Speaker 1: single black person, you know, so we've never seen that
Speaker 1: level of participation. I don't want to give this number
Speaker 1: because I didn't have a chance to look into it.
Speaker 1: But in India, I think there was billions of people.
Speaker 1: They have a greater voting participation.
Speaker 5: They to the original democracy that So this is what
Speaker 5: I'm saying.
Speaker 1: The more I read and understand things, I just feel
Speaker 1: so ignorant to so much. And I feel like in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, I don't know how y'all feel,
Speaker 1: but from two thousand and eight to twenty sixteen, I
Speaker 1: was living in a fantasy world. I was not anticipating
Speaker 1: what was going to come. I was too busy enjoying
Speaker 1: the moment, even though there were the hardships and challenges
Speaker 1: and all that.
Speaker 4: I just relished in this idea.
Speaker 1: That this was going to We had broken the status
Speaker 1: quo right that President Obama was now our floor and
Speaker 1: we still had a ceiling to get to. I was
Speaker 1: not anticipating that white folks were big mad, they were organizing,
Speaker 1: they you know, they were playing the long game.
Speaker 5: So I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm just curious your thoughts on all.
Speaker 5: Well, first on the way you ended, which is at
Speaker 5: least how I hear you when you say white folks.
Speaker 5: And you may mean something and say something very differently,
Speaker 5: but I believe you to me, I hear it. And
Speaker 5: I think the majority of white people in this country,
Speaker 5: how they decide and how powerful the impact of that
Speaker 5: decision is on all of the rest of us. And
Speaker 5: put it more simply, white women, by majorities voted for
Speaker 5: Donald Trump. White men by significant majorities voted for Donald Trump. Together,
Speaker 5: they constitute a ruling majority. And it sucks they have
Speaker 5: to use the term ruling because they the ruling is
Speaker 5: more associated with aristocracies. But when you have shifts like
Speaker 5: we've seen in our democratic process to more of an autocracy,
Speaker 5: a klepto class or people get power just to take
Speaker 5: money from out of the system and oligarchy, and to
Speaker 5: define that, it simply means the wealthiest people aren't just
Speaker 5: the richest people in the world, but they're now the
Speaker 5: richest people in the world who also get to decide
Speaker 5: what government's actions are going to be and what government's
Speaker 5: actions are not going to be. So it's a marriage
Speaker 5: of not just the wealthiest people, but now the wealthiest
Speaker 5: people also quite literally have all the power. There's power
Speaker 5: by virtue of money, and now you've got power by
Speaker 5: virtue of the lovers of government operating in your interests exclusively.
Speaker 5: And that's where we're moving toward. Trump even admits he
Speaker 5: has the wealthiest your more billionaires in his cabinet than
Speaker 5: have ever served the country. He thinks that is a
Speaker 5: good thing. I think that's a horrible thing, because that
Speaker 5: that that no way resembles to people who are being governed,
Speaker 5: not real quickly to the to the gentleman's point, I
Speaker 5: to appreciate it, because I have to say one of
Speaker 5: my criticism of the Democratic Party, and I would even
Speaker 5: now extend that I guess to us by way of
Speaker 5: I think how we see a lot of issues and
Speaker 5: how it gets up under us, and for good reason
Speaker 5: is that I think we talk a lot about those
Speaker 5: who are at the margins of our society, the poorest,
Speaker 5: the ones who cannot, you know, get easy access to
Speaker 5: healthcare and childcare and all of those things. Not a
Speaker 5: lot of talk about what that squeeze is in the middle,
Speaker 5: and not a lot of talk about what that squeeze
Speaker 5: is for those who were in the upper middle. And
Speaker 5: then we spend a lot of time at the top
Speaker 5: end of that spectrum, on the wealthiest one one percent
Speaker 5: as well. And I think what is true today as
Speaker 5: it has really been in the for the last century
Speaker 5: in this country, and that is is whether you are
Speaker 5: in the working poor or whether you're in that middle,
Speaker 5: A paycheck or two can easily throw you between from
Speaker 5: one to the other. And I really mean, especially in
Speaker 5: that middle group of folks who feel comfortable, live very comfortably.
Speaker 5: But God knows, you don't take my income away for
Speaker 5: two months, don't take my income away, you know, substantially
Speaker 5: for the next three months. Most of us don't have
Speaker 5: three months of total expenses saved up in a bank account.
Speaker 8: So this.
Speaker 5: Class status or as you will, is not so comfortable
Speaker 5: for a lot of us. And that's why I think
Speaker 5: it is important to pay attention to what's happening at
Speaker 5: various ends of this spectrum and to relate that to
Speaker 5: voting is I think we oftentimes talk about the folks
Speaker 5: who have maybe economic barriers standing in their way from
Speaker 5: accessing the ballot box. But I know people who I
Speaker 5: went to college with, who have more advanced degrees than
Speaker 5: I do, who live very comfortably in their lives, who
Speaker 5: also make the decision not to participate in the process,
Speaker 5: and it is clear that they've prioritized something else above
Speaker 5: the impact that their vote is going to have on
Speaker 5: their lived condition. And I think the same is true
Speaker 5: for those at the bottom end of the spectrum. And
Speaker 5: I'm talking economically that when you've done a thing so
Speaker 5: many times, or you've seen a thing done so many times,
Speaker 5: yet your material conditions, when I say material, meaning the
Speaker 5: things you can feel, touch, eat, never change. Well, y'all,
Speaker 5: that's the classic definition of insanity. To keep doing the
Speaker 5: thing nothing changes, but you keep doing it anyway. Now,
Speaker 5: I want to argue with myself simply to say and
Speaker 5: I'll quit here is to say I don't buy the
Speaker 5: height that nothing changes. I just think change is a
Speaker 5: very tenuous circumstance. For instance, four months ago, we all
Speaker 5: thought we lived in a democracy. Courts mattered, court's decisions mattered.
Speaker 5: You didn't flout that.
Speaker 9: We never thought that a president could just completely disregard
Speaker 9: the monuments called the monument's cause where he is taking
Speaker 9: a firth clock monuments, taking money taking place for his
Speaker 9: I set up the moment I've.
Speaker 5: Given the monument's clause that was my two weeks ago.
Speaker 5: But the monuments, But but essentially the law that says
Speaker 5: that the president policymakers cannot take gifts from folks, from
Speaker 5: foreign individuals or domestic and keep them into themselves. That's
Speaker 5: a profit to themselves for their position. Right, the president
Speaker 5: cannot accept a four and ad million dollar plane, a
Speaker 5: mansion in the sky and then give it to the
Speaker 5: government right now and then ultimately give it to his
Speaker 5: presidential library, but then take full use of it when
Speaker 5: he's out of office to enrich himself.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 5: And there are other gamuts that are that are that
Speaker 5: that that these folks are are participating in that don't
Speaker 5: make sense. So from that standpoint, I understand that I
Speaker 5: think we have to broaden who we see as being
Speaker 5: disenfranchised from the process. Those who self opt into it
Speaker 5: because they've they've prioritized something over it, or those who
Speaker 5: by their very conditions and materially not changing and therefore
Speaker 5: they're not believing and acting in support of a system
Speaker 5: that isn't in service to them. And I get both sides,
Speaker 5: but I do think we have to give more thought,
Speaker 5: more conversation to the fact that there are people who
Speaker 5: are well healed in our society by comparison, still making
Speaker 5: the choice not to participate in this process. And the
Speaker 5: last thing I'm going to say here is that no way, ever, ever,
Speaker 5: ever have the majority of people, I mean of everyone
Speaker 5: in this country ever participated in the democratic process. There's
Speaker 5: never been a movement in this country where everyone who's
Speaker 5: impacted by it has participated in that process. In fact,
Speaker 5: the opposite is mostly true. And consider that this democracy
Speaker 5: that we have today, what's left of it, was never
Speaker 5: ever designed for the engagement of the majority. The ruling
Speaker 5: class don't believe in majority rule. They believe that the
Speaker 5: majority can lead to chaos, can lead to protests and
Speaker 5: the destruction of the rule in class, which is why
Speaker 5: the first people who could vote were basically white men
Speaker 5: who owned property, not all white men. Y'all keep it
Speaker 5: with us on the other side of his break, We're
Speaker 5: gonna continue the conversation.
Speaker 4: I don't know that.
Speaker 1: We've I agree with everything he said, Andrew, save for
Speaker 1: the part about democracy. I don't know that I've ever
Speaker 1: really believed this was a democracy. You know, when I
Speaker 1: have my show this well, I can't remember this bitch
Speaker 1: name because she offended me. And I mean to say, yes, sure,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you why she I think I want
Speaker 1: to say maybe she wrote for The Atlantic. I don't remember,
Speaker 1: but I had her. I was feeling in for Joy.
Speaker 1: I didn't have my show yet. I was feeling in
Speaker 1: for Joy on her weekend show when she was moving
Speaker 1: a primetime I had this woman on and I was
Speaker 1: making the point that we are a young demidocracy, yes,
Speaker 1: and she was really nasty about it and was kind
Speaker 1: of like talking to me like I'm an idiot, you know,
Speaker 1: And she's like, we're not a young democracy, We're the
Speaker 1: oldest democracy.
Speaker 4: And we had to go my producer in my ear,
Speaker 4: like we got to go to a break, like we
Speaker 4: got a ramp.
Speaker 1: And there are so many people who actually believe America
Speaker 1: is one of the oldest democracies. And I would ask, well,
Speaker 1: what do you consider a democracy? You consider it that
Speaker 1: because you were able to participate in it. But this
Speaker 1: was a white woman, so I'm like, it's you weren't
Speaker 1: even in a democracy that you weren't even denying participation
Speaker 1: in this democracy. But you're so busy trying to be
Speaker 1: nasty to me to tell me that it was a
Speaker 1: young democracy. But if you google American oldest democracy, you
Speaker 1: will see papers, articles, think pieces on how America is
Speaker 1: one of the oldest democracy.
Speaker 4: The devil is a lie. It ain't no oldest democrac It's.
Speaker 5: Never been, not in the truth form that you're talking about.
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, people can factually say that we're one
Speaker 5: of the longest running. There have been societies that have
Speaker 5: changed forms of government and gone back and forth between
Speaker 5: this form and that form. But be clear that India
Speaker 5: is the world's oldest democracy, and quite frankly, in the
Speaker 5: life of society and in the life of Homo sapiens.
Speaker 5: The United States as an idea is extremely young. In fact,
Speaker 5: we have institutions colleges, Harvard being one of them, that
Speaker 5: pre existed the existence of the United States. And I
Speaker 5: don't mean the land, I mean the formation of this
Speaker 5: as a country. So we are relatively you know, we
Speaker 5: are relatively young, however, pretty enduring given the life of
Speaker 5: that the country has had. But I think the most
Speaker 5: important thing about that, Tiffany. You are bringing it up,
Speaker 5: and I think the point you wanted to make, which
Speaker 5: is in its fullest form, when we think about democracy
Speaker 5: and democratic participation, this country still falls woefully short of
Speaker 5: its ideals. And that's why we have to stay in
Speaker 5: the game, put our shoulders to the wheel, stiff in
Speaker 5: our spine. It's because it's then our job to you
Speaker 5: to move this thing closer to its ideals.
Speaker 3: That's the part though that's hard for me too, because
Speaker 3: it's like, how did and we can't probably can't solve
Speaker 3: to say, this is another mini pod, but how did
Speaker 3: we get roped into helping you fulfill some ideals that
Speaker 3: you didn't even think enough of us to include? How
Speaker 3: did we get roped into helping you fulfill ideals when
Speaker 3: you owe us every damn thing? Like I'm gonna tell y'all,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna just tell y'all something this probably.
Speaker 10: Don't say said anyway, I think that what has happened
Speaker 10: on this tour I might have been radicalized.
Speaker 5: I am girl, please, you are definition radical, but I.
Speaker 3: Think more so now Andrew, because I'm like, I just
Speaker 3: know in my core we just deserve so much better. Sure,
Speaker 3: and I am very much so doubting that the people
Speaker 3: who we need to do better by us have the
Speaker 3: capacity or interest to do so let me give you
Speaker 3: an example. Let me just give you an example. I
Speaker 3: know Tip is like, this is one question. We got
Speaker 3: one moment, but it's my last quart. I want to
Speaker 3: hit an example, like I got time today. So listen
Speaker 3: you guys, and blessed you, and I want to honor
Speaker 3: my elders. But God damn it. We had a white woman,
Speaker 3: an elder white woman, come to Louisville. The first day
Speaker 3: she had us. She was sitting there with her American
Speaker 3: flag shirt on, button up, and when I got in
Speaker 3: the room, I was telling them how this was a
Speaker 3: black focused, Black centered movement to oprahvide relief, opportunity and
Speaker 3: policy solutions for our people. I ain't had the mic
Speaker 3: down for fifteen seconds before sister girl pulled me to
Speaker 3: the side and said, this is not just for black people.
Speaker 7: I saw you.
Speaker 3: How you gonna tell me?
Speaker 10: How are you gonna tell me that this is not
Speaker 10: just for black it is for black people? How do
Speaker 10: I know because I'm one of the visionaries, ma'am. I
Speaker 10: don't even know your name. Alicia Keys, like.
Speaker 5: What are you talking about?
Speaker 3: How are you going to tell me that this is
Speaker 3: not for black people? So I said, ma'am, that's what
Speaker 3: was going on the inside. Y'all would have been proud.
Speaker 3: That's not my response. I said, ma'am, this is for
Speaker 3: black people. I said, we orchestrated it that way. And
Speaker 3: she said, well, no, because I'm here. And I said,
Speaker 3: and I'm so glad you're here. And she was like,
Speaker 3: but you have to go. You have to go get
Speaker 3: more people like me so that Andrew's face, so that
Speaker 3: you can be effective. And I said, ma'am, that is
Speaker 3: not my calling. That's your calling, Susie and Larry and Bethanem.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get them.
Speaker 4: That's not what I feel called to do.
Speaker 5: And I was so like a f Did I think
Speaker 5: this weekend? No? I think I was on different levels. No, No, No,
Speaker 5: I think I was speaking on different levels. She heard
Speaker 5: this is a black exclusion exclusive space. That's what you said,
Speaker 5: because that's.
Speaker 3: How they moved.
Speaker 5: No, I'm not saying no, no, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 5: I'm talking about the difference and the way it is processed.
Speaker 5: And first of all, let's just see white people move
Speaker 5: differently in society because the first thing she could do
Speaker 5: in this whole event was sent to herself. She can't
Speaker 5: talk about she done it.
Speaker 3: Wait and I didn't even get to this part because
Speaker 3: I forgot andrew no good. That's what she did the
Speaker 3: second day too, to the point where I don't want
Speaker 3: to call everybody. I'm gonna call hert Holly Holliday, who
Speaker 3: was moderating this conversation for black it's the Black Women's
Speaker 3: Leadership Collective Panel. Everybody's listening since came back the next day.
Speaker 3: Since you know, Holly's asking if there's any questions. The
Speaker 3: woman again and does the same thing, and Holly was like,
Speaker 3: now you know you're not on the panel, right right.
Speaker 10: She had to be like, you school, you got a question,
Speaker 10: but you can't just be up here with no microphone,
Speaker 10: like what are we doing?
Speaker 3: And I think that that is part of the problem.
Speaker 3: You have an ego centric leadership and political structure.
Speaker 4: You have an egocentric way of existing.
Speaker 3: That even when people have to create space for themselves
Speaker 3: to be seen and heard, you still find a way
Speaker 3: to center yourself. Everything about this place has been built
Speaker 3: for y'all. If y'all don't let me have this moment
Speaker 3: as Simmons College with black people in Louisville, we.
Speaker 1: Gonna have a problem, man, Like, I think that's the
Speaker 1: part of the challenge, quite frankly, because and this is
Speaker 1: kind of my point, whiteness remains undefeated. So even you know,
Speaker 1: that was my point about if every black person voted,
Speaker 1: whiteness remains undefeated. So then you go to well, because
Speaker 1: I have an issue with all the people like shitting
Speaker 1: on the Arab community, the Latino community, Api community, because
Speaker 1: y'all leap frogging over all these white folks going after
Speaker 1: people in the country.
Speaker 4: Wasn't kind to them either.
Speaker 1: Yes, acknowledging that, there of course is anti black sentiment
Speaker 1: in communities, But I'm like, if eighty percent of a
Speaker 1: group voted, but twenty percent is trying to ally, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to that twenty percent. And so what
Speaker 1: is not my ministry is to try to appeal to
Speaker 1: the hearts and minds of this idea of whiteness. It's
Speaker 1: not my ministry to try to change perspective. It's not
Speaker 1: my ministry to seek humanity where I have seen none.
Speaker 1: Throughout history, I've seen no evidence of any such thing.
Speaker 1: And so I don't know what we do in this space.
Speaker 1: So many of you guys, thank you for tuning in.
Speaker 1: I'm really so. I'm very receptive. When people come up
Speaker 1: to me and you listen to NLP, I'm very receptive.
Speaker 1: I'm very receptive to conversation, and I really anticipate disagreement. Sadly,
Speaker 1: I have not had a lot of disagreement. People come
Speaker 1: up to me and I'm already anticipating the say you
Speaker 1: know you're wrong about this, and they're like, sifnany you
Speaker 1: keep talking about you feel hopeless. Then I'm bracing myself.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, give me some hope. You about to
Speaker 1: tell me how wrong I am feeling hopeless And they're like, girl,
Speaker 1: me too, Like I feel the same way. And it
Speaker 1: makes me sad because I'm like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be spreading darkness. I don't want to be spreading hopelessness.
Speaker 1: But I am a bit like if that's who they are,
Speaker 1: if this woman had the semerity to stand in this
Speaker 1: space and center herself and say no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: this is not just a black space, I don't have
Speaker 1: anything to say, Like, I don't know that I would
Speaker 1: even have the you gave her your time. I don't
Speaker 1: even I would have just said, okay, you know, because
Speaker 1: how can I convince you you cannot fill a cup
Speaker 1: that is already full. If that's how you feel, then
Speaker 1: go about your day. And Angel, I'm gonna tell you.
Speaker 1: I'm listening to this and I'm like, she wanted a confrontation,
Speaker 1: she wanted a viral moment.
Speaker 4: Is she an op?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 3: Up here? She might not be right, but she is
Speaker 3: also an official part of the Louisville Democratic Party structure,
Speaker 3: which I.
Speaker 4: Think that's just it.
Speaker 3: There's this thing that happens and we all saw it
Speaker 3: on steroids after George Flood was murdered, right, all of
Speaker 3: our white friends were calling saying, you know, I just
Speaker 3: want you to know I read the autobiography of Malcolm X,
Speaker 3: and I am Malcolm X. You know it happened so
Speaker 3: many times there are but yet there are some other
Speaker 3: white folks will be like, I don't know what you're
Speaker 3: going through. I just want to hold space. I'm good
Speaker 3: with it. I'm gonna be here. Ashanti, who runs a merge,
Speaker 3: did a workshop on how to run for office, and
Speaker 3: there was a white sister who was with her who
Speaker 3: didn't do none of that who didn't do none of
Speaker 3: that was just like, I'm happy to be here. What
Speaker 3: y'all are doing is dope, happy to support. That's the energy, y'all,
Speaker 3: that's the energy.
Speaker 5: Like if we're not, yeah, I think you're giving a
Speaker 5: lesson right now, because I actually don't I hear where
Speaker 5: Tiff is because lord knows, I've been around a number
Speaker 5: of ops. I can't even count them, right, don't even
Speaker 5: know them. Yeah, but if I receive it in our
Speaker 5: most generous spirit, it would be the woman probably wants
Speaker 5: to be an allyship, Yeah, doesn't really know where to
Speaker 5: begin and completely has no sense of her space because
Speaker 5: she decided to take a space that wasn't hers and
Speaker 5: attempt to bend the whole damn thing right her way
Speaker 5: and then charge you with the mission of going out
Speaker 5: to get more of hers. That's all way, every way
Speaker 5: round wrong. So I would just say, if you are
Speaker 5: seeking to be an allyship, and you go into a
Speaker 5: space like this convening, which has no mix ups in
Speaker 5: its messaging about who it is and what is for that,
Speaker 5: if you want to be an ally you go and
Speaker 5: you listen, especially on day one comment number one, welcome
Speaker 5: number one, the first thing you do is stand up
Speaker 5: and put your uself in the middle of the conversation,
Speaker 5: so that then you're the sun and were just going
Speaker 5: around around. You know that doesn't that doesn't work, And
Speaker 5: it takes a little bit of self awareness to know that, yes,
Speaker 5: in every day of your life you move a particular.
Speaker 3: Way where you got to desire that all you have
Speaker 3: to know that.
Speaker 5: You need it. And if you have all your life
Speaker 5: and a station of privilege, even if you don't think
Speaker 5: you've been in privilege, yes, but that you have the
Speaker 5: right to come up and confront me on that. I
Speaker 5: don't know many black people who go into foreign spaces
Speaker 5: and the first thing they want to do after the
Speaker 5: welcome is to tell you all the things you are
Speaker 5: not and need to be, and how this isn't of
Speaker 5: service to them. Most of us will sit in curiosity,
Speaker 5: let this thing go on a little bit, to see
Speaker 5: what the shape of it is before we do a thing.
Speaker 5: And we've learned that because in most spaces we aren't welcomed,
Speaker 5: and when we are, we're little boy patted, little girl
Speaker 5: patty and not treated like a hue, you know, like
Speaker 5: a like a like a full person and into a
Speaker 5: lot of white liberals, my friends, a lot of them.
Speaker 5: I know, many of them volunteer in my campaign, and
Speaker 5: I believe they wanted us to win, and they worked
Speaker 5: like they wanted us to win. But many of them
Speaker 5: are in complete unawareness of the privilege in which they
Speaker 5: walk in and then the way that they move. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and that's because they've never been confronted with a society
Speaker 5: where that isn't true. And the only time they have
Speaker 5: it felt it is when they've been at an event
Speaker 5: with me and realized that they were the only white person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a birthmark with this incentive to shrink.
Speaker 1: It's like a birthmark to us. And as black Americans
Speaker 1: where you are, you know, don't embarrass me in front
Speaker 1: of these white folks coming here, act like you got
Speaker 1: some sense, or you here you become bilingual because you.
Speaker 2: You know, your mom is like I.
Speaker 1: Told you to sit your black ass down, or you
Speaker 1: betty get.
Speaker 4: As in this house.
Speaker 1: Yes, every part of our being has been to your point,
Speaker 1: Andrew about tapping into our imagination, every part of our
Speaker 1: being has been shaped around them, and so they have
Speaker 1: no concept. You can let your kids come into a
Speaker 1: restaurant and jump all over and throw food and ship
Speaker 1: and act the room.
Speaker 4: Freedom.
Speaker 1: They have the freedom to be well because I when
Speaker 1: I see black kids doing that, I get an attitude and.
Speaker 4: Then I think, you know, these are black children. Let
Speaker 4: them have their joy, like, let them live.
Speaker 1: But I immediately think somebody should tell them kids to
Speaker 1: sit down, you know, at restaurants, if you're next to me,
Speaker 1: please you.
Speaker 4: Know, but like you guys, kids, you know that's fight
Speaker 4: dogs tipped on like I do.
Speaker 2: The people who know your current.
Speaker 1: Yes, but I love dogs if it's dogs that I
Speaker 1: love dogs. I'm a grown woman. So no, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: not a babyfitter. And you want me to keep your kids,
Speaker 1: you just find a babysitter, but usually at a party, airlines, noet.
Speaker 1: Just to clarify, like, I have very close relationships with
Speaker 1: kids because I always want kids to feel safe. But
Speaker 1: I'm I think we should allow space for children to
Speaker 1: experience black joy.
Speaker 5: For sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there's no part of.
Speaker 1: Me that dislikes children. Like I think there's a strange
Speaker 1: sensation to have.
Speaker 3: But wouldn't I didn't mean like that. I just meant
Speaker 3: you would rather watch somebody dog get in the baby.
Speaker 5: That's what I believe probably.
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't do either just because the time capacity.
Speaker 1: But we are we are like into this conversation and
Speaker 1: we still have another viewer comments.
Speaker 5: I want to make sure your conversation. But I also
Speaker 5: just wanted to say before we moved on, before we
Speaker 5: went off, you know, the exit ramp is to simply say, also,
Speaker 5: black folks have this ability and skill and observation to
Speaker 5: be an awareness of a space from a higher level
Speaker 5: of sophistication too. It's it's it is knowing your perceived enemy,
Speaker 5: or certainly knowing your environment outside of what is your environment,
Speaker 5: so that you know how to move to get from
Speaker 5: it what you need, what you want, what is in
Speaker 5: service to you. And again I think the same is
Speaker 5: still true that there are a lot of other cultures,
Speaker 5: a lot of other folks, and principally those who are
Speaker 5: white in this country who never have to take surveillance,
Speaker 5: never have to be aware. When you're the highest thing flying,
Speaker 5: you don't look above, right, could you survey what's beneath?
Speaker 5: And so in so many ways they are the highest
Speaker 5: thing flying, and so an observation of the entirety three
Speaker 5: sixty is not a requirement. And for many of us
Speaker 5: we got to know the ends, the outs, the exits,
Speaker 5: the exit we're gonna create if it becomes necessary. There's
Speaker 5: a different level of situational awareness. But I'm with you.
Speaker 5: I'd love to hear this next question if we enroll it.
Speaker 8: Hey, native Blamee family. This is Jordan Foster in DC
Speaker 8: by way of Newport News, Virginia. I wanted to come
Speaker 8: and respond to the question of how do you reshape
Speaker 8: the country? I think there are two things that I
Speaker 8: would want to see. One, I want to see the
Speaker 8: Democratic primaries start this year. That's within this system. I
Speaker 8: wanted to see it start this year because I feel
Speaker 8: like Trump has gutted so much of the system that
Speaker 8: you're whoever is the next Democratic leader. If we get one,
Speaker 8: they're gonna have to rebuild everything, and the thing's gonna
Speaker 8: take three years for us to really like learn their vision.
Speaker 8: And Then two, I think that in whatever new system
Speaker 8: we get, I want something where we don't have terms
Speaker 8: in the sense that if you get thrown out, someone
Speaker 8: just finishes your term. I want to be able to
Speaker 8: do a vote of no confidence and we just start
Speaker 8: over again.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I also want to validate what Tiffany said a few
Speaker 8: weeks ago. You guys should definitely be talking more, be
Speaker 8: invited to speak more than the guys from Podsave, and
Speaker 8: more than like Ezra Klin and people like that, because
Speaker 8: you actually understand the stakes as they are, and you're
Speaker 8: not just trying to go back to doing like business
Speaker 8: as usual, and you have a point of you and
Speaker 8: you actually are selling something that is interesting, validating that
Speaker 8: so much that I had already been saying it for
Speaker 8: like months before you said it. Tiffany, all right, have
Speaker 8: a go one.
Speaker 3: Jordan is our New Shade correspondent.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Jordan, Thank you Jordan. I appreciate that.
Speaker 5: I appreciate you.
Speaker 3: I gotta take nobody down to lift your hype your
Speaker 3: bestie up though. You gotta do that.
Speaker 4: You know, we hype your best But I would say
Speaker 4: this Angela about his point.
Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna get into my criticism of the media,
Speaker 1: but it is it's like, I think we're at a
Speaker 1: moment in time where we see in every space how
Speaker 1: we center white comfort, and so Pod Save America to me, is.
Speaker 4: A a poster of white comfort.
Speaker 1: They're never going to say anything that's gonna make white
Speaker 1: folks uncomfort, and so as a result, there will be,
Speaker 1: and they're they're not the only ones. But I mean,
Speaker 1: like across the board, reporters that the New York Times
Speaker 1: have to tailor they're recording for white comfort. Correspondence across
Speaker 1: media have to tailor facts for white comfort. We see
Speaker 1: all the time. You know, today, I'm just making this
Speaker 1: number up. But today or this month, fourteen thousand Palestinian
Speaker 1: children or children in Gaza were killed. We don't hear
Speaker 1: today the Israeli government killed fourteen thousand children in the
Speaker 1: West Bank. We just don't hear things like that. We hear,
Speaker 1: you know, over you know, one hundred thousand enslaved were killed.
Speaker 1: We don't hear white people killed one hundred thousand black
Speaker 1: folks during this time period. And so I think because
Speaker 1: we all speak our own, unapologetic, unfiltered truth in our
Speaker 1: own way, and you know, here we get to have
Speaker 1: nuanced disagreement, we get to deep dive into discussion, we
Speaker 1: get to but on a cable news panel, or on
Speaker 1: any panel, they would put us all on under the
Speaker 1: guise of we all feel the same, like we're all
Speaker 1: there representing one position, when the three of us rarely
Speaker 1: feel the same about anything. We feel the same about
Speaker 1: basic humanity, We feel the same about decency, we feel
Speaker 1: the same about equality.
Speaker 4: But that's base.
Speaker 1: Why is that a political point? You know, when you
Speaker 1: get rid of that part. We have very different approaches
Speaker 1: to liberation. We have very different opinions on what's happening
Speaker 1: in democracy right now in the ways to fix it.
Speaker 1: So I just I got an issue with that, And
Speaker 1: just real quick, this is another thing I got an
Speaker 1: issue with too, because these are about the things and
Speaker 1: in the video, but these a lot of comments of
Speaker 1: people constantly saying that we are not in community and
Speaker 1: we don't know about community. One Angela is doing the
Speaker 1: State of the People tour. That is an invitation to
Speaker 1: all of community. So please go to State of PPL
Speaker 1: dot org, dot com, dot com dot com and you
Speaker 1: can see will be in LA this week so you
Speaker 1: can find us there. But community, I think it was
Speaker 1: Tavis Smiley and he said that the Ivy League in
Speaker 1: crack cocaine were two of the worst things that.
Speaker 4: Happened to black people.
Speaker 1: And I never understood it until I got older and
Speaker 1: I worked with a bunch of black people at a
Speaker 1: black network.
Speaker 4: That's the over remain nameless, but all the leadership.
Speaker 1: They were Ivy League graduates, and they thought that appealing
Speaker 1: to community meant you were gonna have to appeal to
Speaker 1: the lowest common denominator, so to speak, the most ignorant
Speaker 1: of the bunch. That meant you were talking to black folks.
Speaker 1: And I'm here to tell y'all, the most ignorant of
Speaker 1: the bunch is my community. The working class is my community.
Speaker 1: The middle class is my community. The uppercross folks in
Speaker 1: my community. The way Angela, you grew up with your parents,
Speaker 1: they some of the blackest people I know. They're my community.
Speaker 1: Y'all didn't have to struggle to prove your black mant.
Speaker 1: That's my community. Andrew, the where you live now, that's
Speaker 1: my community. Like we are all a community. So this
Speaker 1: whole idea, like y'all ain't in community. You have no
Speaker 1: idea My Wayian's out there. I promise you. I ain't
Speaker 1: never left community. Ain't nobody in my immediate family left
Speaker 1: for you have no idea. So I would just I
Speaker 1: want to throw out that because that happens a lot.
Speaker 5: Well, see this is why you are our translator on
Speaker 5: what's being said in the streets. If you will. But
Speaker 5: I appreciate that. But more than anything, we've lived the
Speaker 5: way we have lived, and our products and continuing to
Speaker 5: produce as an extension of that lived experience. So you
Speaker 5: can you can't ever take from me Richmond Heights, South
Speaker 5: Miami Heights. You can't goules in Miami. You can't take
Speaker 5: from me Gainesville, you can't take from me south side
Speaker 5: of Tallahassee all the way to where we are now
Speaker 5: and what God has for what the future of that is.
Speaker 5: And you know, God blessed the person who is able
Speaker 5: to forget that past and make a new. But but
Speaker 5: but I am community, just as whoever the mentioner of
Speaker 5: that is community. And I think to your point, Tiffany,
Speaker 5: about like the nuance and the disagreement and the perspectives
Speaker 5: that are so fine in their differences that someone unaware,
Speaker 5: someone only looking very servicefully wouldn't pick it up because
Speaker 5: they see three brown faces doing or saying a particular thing.
Speaker 5: And I've always I've felt this for a long time
Speaker 5: about many of the white folks that I have been
Speaker 5: in contact with. And my definition or the impact of
Speaker 5: community is actually beginning to expand this idea that there
Speaker 5: was just some people who can't fit a whole black
Speaker 5: person in their mind, like, not just me as a politician,
Speaker 5: not me as an activist, not me as a dad
Speaker 5: and a father. I'm indivisible. I'm all of those things.
Speaker 5: And so when we comment, when we come into a place,
Speaker 5: when we bring a perspective, unless we try to delineate
Speaker 5: by saying I'm going to separate myself from this, is
Speaker 5: that in the third which is which is bull anyway,
Speaker 5: because you are a person, You're human, We're an indivisible person.
Speaker 5: I cannot be divided between myself. As much as I
Speaker 5: might try, or even as much as I might predicate
Speaker 5: before I make a statement. I'm me all the way
Speaker 5: through and through the worst parts, the best parts, and
Speaker 5: everything in between. And my perspective is shaded by that
Speaker 5: entire lived experience. And so when you throw me an
Speaker 5: ad and you think that that's going to appeal to me,
Speaker 5: because to Tif's point, whatever the lowest common denominat is,
Speaker 5: you might miss me with that, because that's not where
Speaker 5: I show up on this spectrum, on this gradient. I'm
Speaker 5: a whole person, though, and I want you to consider
Speaker 5: me when you're talking about real America. I'm real America.
Speaker 5: Regardless of the population of the place I live or
Speaker 5: whether I'm what geographical region of the country. I'm a
Speaker 5: real American, and I just I think I thought that
Speaker 5: that was a disease held mostly almost exclusively by white folks.
Speaker 5: But it is in true form a disease, which means
Speaker 5: it spreads. And now it is a concept that we
Speaker 5: are incubators of where we can't we can't see the
Speaker 5: fullness of an individual in that perspective, but we use,
Speaker 5: frankly the majority ruling class shorthand of you not in
Speaker 5: the community, or you're not this, and I'm not going
Speaker 5: after anybody. I don't read those I don't know about
Speaker 5: it the conversation we have, but in general we know
Speaker 5: how this works. And I would just say to the
Speaker 5: earlier point, to the one that was just made by
Speaker 5: this listener question, we can't. It is not some theoretical
Speaker 5: exercise and futility for us to think again about the
Speaker 5: society we want to live in the rules that control it.
Speaker 5: Just as I exampled four months ago, this country and
Speaker 5: what we thought its extens were were different than how
Speaker 5: we might envision them today. I didn't know you could
Speaker 5: close entire departments by one person that you could you
Speaker 5: could ameliorate the checks and balance the system by one action.
Speaker 5: But all that stuff is happening today on steroids, so
Speaker 5: we can, to the other point, imagine something different.
Speaker 1: That's Angela. You wanted to get in you. I saw
Speaker 1: you trying to get in when I was saying something.
Speaker 1: I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 5: Praise the Lord, everybody.
Speaker 3: I don't have anything because we have a guest coming
Speaker 3: to join us, and I want to know. I want
Speaker 3: you all to know that tiff and Andrews speak for
Speaker 3: me even when we disagree, so that I don't think
Speaker 3: I disagreed with anything. I want to shout out this brother.
Speaker 3: I'm seriously we need him on to be the Shape correspondent.
Speaker 3: There's something because he was great and I really liked
Speaker 3: how he talked about a strategy that could work for us,
Speaker 3: and I think that it is important when we think
Speaker 3: about strategies that can work for us, that we have
Speaker 3: on people who have toiled, wrestled, fought, were deemed as
Speaker 3: crazy or too on matters for many years that we
Speaker 3: know are rightfully ours. For over one hundred years, Black
Speaker 3: Wall Street has been wrestling with the federal government, the
Speaker 3: state government, and the local government to get what they deserve.
Speaker 3: And our good brother and friend to Mario. Solomon Simmons
Speaker 3: is the primary attorney in lead for the Tulsa Race
Speaker 3: massacre survivors and their descendants, and he joins us today
Speaker 3: to Mario.
Speaker 2: Welcome home, Welcome, welcome, so do Mario.
Speaker 3: We are so happy to have you. And it is
Speaker 3: on such an important occasion, on the eve of an
Speaker 3: important occasion, on the other side of an important occasion.
Speaker 3: But just recently the mayor of Tulsa had this to
Speaker 3: say finally about justice for Greenwood.
Speaker 5: In the work the.
Speaker 11: Offside early department on the establishment and a degrea with dress,
Speaker 11: a private.
Speaker 5: Care of dress that raised and still cause they.
Speaker 11: Can investment of one hundred five million dollars of a
Speaker 11: private cousin.
Speaker 2: On the rot of repair.
Speaker 11: What's American, but with the sentence is realular nigs at
Speaker 11: the center. They have revised the struction of investing the
Speaker 11: former mising and home ownership, are raising the twenty four
Speaker 11: recide and an investment that has aligned.
Speaker 12: Your euth persons, cause you already out the aligning with
Speaker 12: around the apology commission are ready days.
Speaker 8: We wall show do you watch.
Speaker 11: That's the puls of storm cultural storm repgangilation. By investing
Speaker 11: sixty million dollars for the bird areeligatory the place to
Speaker 11: the scargifts.
Speaker 12: Including our lessons.
Speaker 6: I get this from the.
Speaker 12: Master and the other cultural lamars.
Speaker 11: To touch all f weve all have off develment and
Speaker 11: education by attas the twenty one million dollar down for
Speaker 11: education scholarships, small business series.
Speaker 12: No clothes and continuating the working closure to the families
Speaker 12: of the victims through our recommendment to.
Speaker 11: The Mastery investigation, U wehase investments.
Speaker 12: To restore a degree in magation pulsed overall to the community.
Speaker 4: We should have been.
Speaker 3: So De Mario, I want to come to you because
Speaker 3: I know firsthand how hard you have been working on
Speaker 3: this announcement with the Mayor, and I just want to
Speaker 3: ask you first. I know you got feelings, but I
Speaker 3: got to ask you first about Mother Randall and Mother
Speaker 3: Fletcher and how they feel about what was done, especially
Speaker 3: when you compare what you all asked for and have
Speaker 3: demanded for quite some time versus what you've actually gotten
Speaker 3: promises for at this point, how are they feeling? What
Speaker 3: are they saying?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 13: Well, first of all, I was just excited to be
Speaker 13: on to talk about this is We're feeling very good
Speaker 13: down here. This has been a lot of work, if
Speaker 13: you stated, and to have our mayor and gift shots
Speaker 13: out to Mayor Monroe Nichols was stepping up to the plate,
Speaker 13: being bold and courageous, and that's what we need in
Speaker 13: a moment that we're living in today. The survivors are
Speaker 13: excited for the community. This is something that they've wanted
Speaker 13: to hear. They were both their mother Fletcher at one eleven,
Speaker 13: mother Randa at one ten to hear.
Speaker 6: An actual city officials say yes, this was wrong and
Speaker 6: we want to do things to fix this.
Speaker 13: And we're still working with our mayor to talk about
Speaker 13: exactly what that's going to mean for them as individuals.
Speaker 13: And I'm happy to report that the mayor is we're
Speaker 13: engaging those discussions as we move forward. And one thing
Speaker 13: he stated, I don't know if you have it on
Speaker 13: the clip, this is just a beginning. The one hundred
Speaker 13: and five million dollars is just the beginning that we
Speaker 13: want to have in place by next year.
Speaker 6: It's one hundred and fifth anniversary.
Speaker 13: And obviously our clients are one hundred or those two
Speaker 13: clients are one hundred and ten hundred and eleven, so
Speaker 13: we're not trying to make them wait a whole year,
Speaker 13: so we're still working through but overall they were excited
Speaker 13: and happy that this day they got to see this
Speaker 13: day and hear with their own ears.
Speaker 1: Jamorirow, I just want to first and foremost say thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for your tireless work, because you know, again,
Speaker 1: there are so many heroes at this time that when
Speaker 1: you tell the story of America, they should be included,
Speaker 1: and I count you among them, my brother.
Speaker 4: You have been so dedicated to this movement. That's how
Speaker 4: we met.
Speaker 1: You and Angela have known each other for decades, but
Speaker 1: you and I met in twenty twenty one. I believe
Speaker 1: in Tulsa, and I was so fortunate to meet the
Speaker 1: survivors and rest in power to Uncle Red who was
Speaker 1: also one of the survivors, the brother of Mother Fletcher,
Speaker 1: who who unfortunately did not live to see this this day.
Speaker 1: He passed away. And you're a descendant yourself, So I
Speaker 1: just am in awe of you. And this is just
Speaker 1: one case that you're working on. You have a lot
Speaker 1: of cases. You are on the front lines of a
Speaker 1: lot of civil rights battles. But what I love about
Speaker 1: you is you are a revolutionary. You're radical, and you
Speaker 1: love black folks like you love yourself, and we just
Speaker 1: need more people like that. And he's an NLP listener
Speaker 1: because he will text me and Angela like, hey on
Speaker 1: this episode, here are my thoughts. So it's just an
Speaker 1: honor to have you here. My quick question is, and
Speaker 1: you kind of answered a little bit, but I'm just
Speaker 1: curious how long before were mother Fletcher and Mother Randall
Speaker 1: see dollars hit their accounts? And I asked this because
Speaker 1: they're one hundred and ten and one hundred eleven. As
Speaker 1: you said, when they travel, they have an entire team
Speaker 1: of people who travel with them. They have an entire
Speaker 1: team of people who take care of them. You know,
Speaker 1: my mother Fletcher is she's still very astute, but she
Speaker 1: has her grandson and you know, caretakers and those things
Speaker 1: cost money.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 13: Well thanks a lot, Tiffany for that. And yes, I
Speaker 13: just want to one clarification. I'm not actual a descendant,
Speaker 13: Mia Is, my wife is a descendant. I'm a Black
Speaker 13: Creek descendant. That's a whole Yeah, that's a whole other case.
Speaker 13: You know, we're hoping it happens really quickly. Here's the thing,
Speaker 13: and this is why I'm so excited to come on
Speaker 13: this show outside of me just loving you guys and
Speaker 13: loving the show, is the faster we can get money
Speaker 13: into the trust, the faster money can be dispersed out.
Speaker 13: And so right now, anybody that's listening can help contribute
Speaker 13: to this trust. That's why it was brilliant the way
Speaker 13: that was set up, and it's something that we wanted
Speaker 13: to put forward with the mayor to open this up
Speaker 13: not just to the city doing what's right, but inviting
Speaker 13: people from all around the nation. So as soon as
Speaker 13: we can get money into that trust, money can be dispersed.
Speaker 13: And that's what we're working on right now because we
Speaker 13: definitely want them to get what they're just do as
Speaker 13: soon as possible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, we don't know each other, a lot
Speaker 5: of a lot of people in common. My best friend
Speaker 5: Chris Chestnut growing up. After I saw you make your
Speaker 5: arguments in the State Supreme Court, which I thought you
Speaker 5: did a brilliant job. I watched from beginning to end,
Speaker 5: really hanging on y'all's words and on the words of
Speaker 5: those on the opposite table of you to just hear
Speaker 5: what the logic was and what defense would exist for
Speaker 5: such a really remarkable and I use that word not
Speaker 5: with any sal positive salutation, but remarkable devastation to a community.
Speaker 5: And I appreciated the mayor saying could have been right,
Speaker 5: because that's the part that got interrupted. We don't know
Speaker 5: how many descendant millionaires there could have been coming out
Speaker 5: of Tulsa that got truncated. We don't know what those descendants,
Speaker 5: descendants could have gone on to do and become in
Speaker 5: this country, in the world, because all of that got truncated.
Speaker 5: And that's the real to me harm of what has
Speaker 5: happened here, is the fact that so much opportunity, future opportunity,
Speaker 5: unknown opportunity was extinguished, and that horrible tragedy as well.
Speaker 5: I wanted to hear from you, just having listened to
Speaker 5: those arguments made by the government, the Chamber of Commerce,
Speaker 5: all those other folks, what it meant to you personally
Speaker 5: to hear the mayor, the first black mayor of Tulsa,
Speaker 5: if I'm not mistaken, to get up and with the
Speaker 5: voice not just an individual but the power of the
Speaker 5: government behind him make the comments that he made.
Speaker 2: Was there feeling of.
Speaker 5: Deeper level appreciation that we might not be getting on
Speaker 5: the surface that it might mean to you and to
Speaker 5: the survivors and the other descendants of the survivors to
Speaker 5: have the government bring this thing full circle in some ways.
Speaker 13: Yes, we've been worklock working towards that for such a
Speaker 13: long time, and this is the first time that we're
Speaker 13: not being actually fighting the government, and so that meant
Speaker 13: a lot. I must admit, you know, I'm twenty five
Speaker 13: plus years into this, and hearing those words, I felt
Speaker 13: like a big boulder has just been removed from my shoulders.
Speaker 13: Not I mean, I still understanding there's a lot of
Speaker 13: work to do moving forward, but to know that we
Speaker 13: have at least a willing partner at the City of Tulsa,
Speaker 13: and again, we're gonna have to go through a lot.
Speaker 13: We got to get this thing set up, make sure
Speaker 13: the right advisors, make sure it happens the way it
Speaker 13: needs to happen. But man, I just feel like the
Speaker 13: vindication for all of the survivors and descendants who started
Speaker 13: first of all, you know, just for people who don't
Speaker 13: know they're over eleven thousand people that suffer the massacre,
Speaker 13: those over three thousand people that would disappear, never to
Speaker 13: be seen from again, and people started fighting and trying
Speaker 13: to get justice. Days even doing the Masacre. We were
Speaker 13: fighting so it not to happen. And so it like
Speaker 13: vindicates all those people, all those.
Speaker 6: People I've worked with, the doctor, Professor Charles ogle Street,
Speaker 6: doctor John Hope Franklin, Attorney B. C.
Speaker 13: Franklin represented Maxine don Ross Still of the Maxine Hornet,
Speaker 13: so many people that have gotten to get to this point.
Speaker 6: I mean, I was really holding working hard to hold
Speaker 6: back my tears because it was just such a such
Speaker 6: validation that this work mattered.
Speaker 13: One of my cousins, who is a descendant and also
Speaker 13: been in this work for a long time, he said,
Speaker 13: now I just feel like someone.
Speaker 6: Gave my life back over the last twenty five years.
Speaker 6: It wasn't all in vain. And I think that's how
Speaker 6: we all feel.
Speaker 13: And this is a victory, and particularly for it to
Speaker 13: happen in this time period that we're living in MAGA
Speaker 13: two point zero, where anything black is criminalized and they're
Speaker 13: coming at us very very aggressively.
Speaker 6: To see a black mayor stand up and say.
Speaker 13: I'm gonna do what's right, I would encourage anyone to
Speaker 13: go and look at Mayor nichols actual speech. I think
Speaker 13: it's one of the best best speeches I ever heard,
Speaker 13: And one of his lines is why should we do this?
Speaker 13: One hundred and four years later, he says, simply because
Speaker 13: it's the right and decent thing to do. And that's
Speaker 13: such a powerful, powerful statement in this time period where
Speaker 13: we're living and seeing so many things that are that
Speaker 13: are not decent and it's unrighteous, that if we can
Speaker 13: just stand on the side of righteousness and decency, I
Speaker 13: think we can make it out this terrible, terrible time.
Speaker 3: You know, I want to I want to come to
Speaker 3: you about this because I think it's important too. Sometimes
Speaker 3: we go in to demand things. Also shamed to Tip
Speaker 3: for trying to make us sound like we AARP card
Speaker 3: carry She said, y'all have known each other for a decade.
Speaker 6: I was like, whoa, I'm forty nine next week, so
Speaker 6: I'm just embracing it career.
Speaker 3: But I want us to say this here. I think
Speaker 3: that it's important for people to understand that even you
Speaker 3: have a list of demands and those demands haven't changed. Again,
Speaker 3: you didn't get everything that you wanted talk about some
Speaker 3: of the things that you're still pushing the local, state
Speaker 3: and the federal government to do. There was a DJ
Speaker 3: report that came out before the Biden administration's tenure ended.
Speaker 3: You know that was okay, but wasn't as helpful as
Speaker 3: was needed. Talk about some of what you are still
Speaker 3: requiring of the federal government, what you need from the
Speaker 3: state government, and which you are also going to continue
Speaker 3: to push Mayor Nichols to do.
Speaker 13: Man, great question, Angela, as you know because you've been
Speaker 13: involved in this very step of the way. When we
Speaker 13: presented Project Greenwood to the mayor back in December, we
Speaker 13: have thirteen points that included victims, conversation, payment of all
Speaker 13: out standing claims, assortment of other things. Out of that,
Speaker 13: we've gotten about seven of those things, including a citywide holiday,
Speaker 13: which is something we have been pushing for for a
Speaker 13: very long time. And June first, when he made his announcements,
Speaker 13: when he.
Speaker 6: Made on the actual city holiday. So we got seven
Speaker 6: out of the thirteen things, so over half, and so
Speaker 6: you know, we got to be excited. We got to
Speaker 6: take the victories.
Speaker 13: I mean, we're going we go on one hundred and
Speaker 13: four years of no one hundred and four years of
Speaker 13: not just no, hell no, obstacles oppositions. So we take
Speaker 13: the victories, but we're still looking for, you know, making
Speaker 13: sure that the survivors get conversation into their pocket. We
Speaker 13: still want the outstanding claims that are still outstanding that
Speaker 13: were denied by the city to county, the chamber, and
Speaker 13: the insurance companies that deny it claims, and the hundreds
Speaker 13: of millions of dollars that are still outstanding today according
Speaker 13: to the Brookings Institute.
Speaker 6: We want those to be paid.
Speaker 13: We want a hospital built in Greenwood because there was
Speaker 13: a hospital at.
Speaker 6: The time of the mascot that was destroyed. We still
Speaker 6: want those things.
Speaker 13: We still want an actual criminal investigation to hold those responsible.
Speaker 13: So those are things that we're going to still be
Speaker 13: working towards. On the local level, we still think that
Speaker 13: there should be tax abatement. We think that those descendants
Speaker 13: who have been paying taxes to the city and the
Speaker 13: county and the state for one hundred and four years,
Speaker 13: when they're actually old money, there should be a taxabamy
Speaker 13: immunity for the same amount of time period that they've
Speaker 13: been paying in These are things we're going to continue
Speaker 13: to be pushing for.
Speaker 6: At the local level. One of the things that I
Speaker 6: don't know if it's been clear.
Speaker 13: We've been fighting in litigation for over forty five thousand
Speaker 13: records related to the massacre and the continuing arm that
Speaker 13: also was released on June first, and as we get
Speaker 13: into those records, we're going to figure out what else
Speaker 13: is going on that's at the local and the state level.
Speaker 6: At the federal level, I mean, we've been working.
Speaker 13: Very very closely with many of our supporters there, obviously
Speaker 13: starting first with Representative Anti Maxine Waters, who's been on
Speaker 13: this with us for.
Speaker 6: Over twenty five plus years.
Speaker 13: And then we worked real closely with Representative the late
Speaker 13: great Representative Shila Jackson.
Speaker 6: Lee before she passed. Her son was.
Speaker 13: Actually in town on the first we gave her an award.
Speaker 13: But now we're working really closely with our dear brother,
Speaker 13: Representive Our Green, who most of us now know as
Speaker 13: the man who stood up and defiantly said, hey, you
Speaker 13: can I cut this medicaid from these poor people. Well,
Speaker 13: Al Green has been someone that's been working with us
Speaker 13: behind the scenes, and I'm happy to report that we're
Speaker 13: working on some federal legislation specifically to benefit the actual survivors, and.
Speaker 6: That will be coming to the forefront very very soon.
Speaker 13: So this issue is not over with. It's just that
Speaker 13: we have great momentum. We have great partners and the
Speaker 13: speak of the partners. We couldn't have got here without
Speaker 13: so many community, community groups and national partners.
Speaker 6: Tifficanally said, we mad twenty twenty one.
Speaker 13: When we were everyone wanted to interview the survivors, and
Speaker 13: we were very protective of them.
Speaker 6: Right it's COVID.
Speaker 13: We didn't want We didn't know who needs to talk
Speaker 13: to them. I told NBC, I said, I only an
Speaker 13: interview with two people. Joy reed of Tiffany.
Speaker 6: Cross, and I think that's important that that's how we
Speaker 6: need to do.
Speaker 13: We need to leverage our power when this opportunity and
Speaker 13: from that she was everything that we thought she would
Speaker 13: be in much more. From that, this relationship and this
Speaker 13: free ship has blossomed, and we continue to just get
Speaker 13: more and more. So, Andrew, I'm gonna consider you a
Speaker 13: part of just agreeing with family now. Tiffany and Angel
Speaker 13: let you know in your episode when you talked about
Speaker 13: early on what you went through, Man, it touched me
Speaker 13: so much. It was one of the most powerful things
Speaker 13: I heard. How vulnerable you were and how real you were,
Speaker 13: so I appreciate you, brother, I don't always appreciate it all.
Speaker 6: I don't always agree with all your positions.
Speaker 5: I appreciate you so good with Tiffany and Angel in
Speaker 5: your text.
Speaker 13: And one day you know, I've still suffer. I had
Speaker 13: speech impediment growing up, and I still suffer with my words.
Speaker 13: I want to be as clear of my diction as
Speaker 13: you are all the time.
Speaker 6: I'm very impressed with.
Speaker 5: Really beautifully.
Speaker 3: But so he might mispronounce it, but you it was
Speaker 3: definitely articulated clear. I said.
Speaker 6: I wish I could talk.
Speaker 8: Like that too.
Speaker 1: I just I want to ask you because we're at
Speaker 1: a time I'm feeling a bit hopeless, which I've talked about.
Speaker 1: And before you joined us, we were talking about that
Speaker 1: whiteness remains undefeated, you know, and I was making the
Speaker 1: point in this last election, if every black person voted,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been enough to outdo whiteness. And because
Speaker 1: you have said, you say that you you know, want
Speaker 1: to be like Andrew and how he speaks. But I
Speaker 1: think the things that you say. And we've become friends.
Speaker 1: I'm friends with Mia, your lovely wife, who's a newswoman.
Speaker 1: So please give me and mia our love. But I'm
Speaker 1: just curious your thoughts right now. I love listening to
Speaker 1: your positions on things. And so yeah, just as you
Speaker 1: look at what's happening, we got this one win, which
Speaker 1: makes it that does give us some hope and gratitude.
Speaker 1: But as you look out on the country, I don't know,
Speaker 1: what do you think? You how do you feel these days?
Speaker 13: Well, I would say this, If whiteness is undefeated, blackness
Speaker 13: is too because we're still there, demit.
Speaker 6: You know, in nineteen twenty one they stated goal was
Speaker 6: to run the Negro out of Tulsa, and we're still here.
Speaker 6: The state of goal.
Speaker 13: Since we've been here in this country is to extract
Speaker 13: all our labor and get rid of us. Yet we're
Speaker 13: still here. This is a difficult, terrible time. It's a
Speaker 13: dangerous time. It's a time that's pretty unprecedent, even for
Speaker 13: black folks. We have a federal government in our lifetimes
Speaker 13: that is not only just attacking us, but.
Speaker 6: Just openly corrupt.
Speaker 13: And so while we have despair, and hey man, I
Speaker 13: have had many nights of despair and depression and figuring
Speaker 13: out where I need to move to, But we have
Speaker 13: to stay in the fight, stand in the fight, stay focused,
Speaker 13: continue to have community.
Speaker 6: That's why I'm so proud to be a part of
Speaker 6: the State of the Tour. Stay of the People tour
Speaker 6: that you are in.
Speaker 13: Angela's leading, just getting people galvanized and organized.
Speaker 6: But understand that we're going to This is a long road.
Speaker 6: But listen, man, we've been through a lot as a people.
Speaker 13: We've been through enslavement, We've been through Jim Crow, We've
Speaker 13: been through red lining. The Tulsa massacre was just one
Speaker 13: of hundreds. The only thing that makes it unique is
Speaker 13: the side, scope and scale of it. So we have
Speaker 13: to be very clear headed and understand. And what I'd
Speaker 13: like to say is, like the people, we look at Greenwood,
Speaker 13: we look at the massacre, but let's talk about what
Speaker 13: created Greenwood, and I call it to think Greenwood principles,
Speaker 13: and if we practice them as a community, I think
Speaker 13: we can overcome. And first of all, it's community love.
Speaker 13: That was the first principal of Greenwood. The second one
Speaker 13: was self determination. The third was ownership and not just
Speaker 13: ownership of things and land, but ownership of ourselves, ownership
Speaker 13: of our community, ownership of our own mentality.
Speaker 6: And then fourth was education and wealth.
Speaker 13: Concentration, not the fact because a lot of people like
Speaker 13: to talk about Greenwood because of the economics and Black
Speaker 13: Wall Street. I'm not talking about that. When I say
Speaker 13: education and wealth concentration, I'm talking about cooperative economics. I'm
Speaker 13: talking about working together and saying we're gonna build for
Speaker 13: ourselves so we can all prosper.
Speaker 6: We don't have to all be millionaires. We don't all
Speaker 6: need to be millionaires.
Speaker 13: And fifth, and I think to really go to your
Speaker 13: question right now, Tiffany, the fifth principle.
Speaker 6: Of think Greenwood, it's willful resilience.
Speaker 13: Wilful resilience doesn't mean we're not gonna get tired, doesn't
Speaker 13: mean we're gonna feel despair, doesn't mean we're not gonna
Speaker 13: have defeats. But we're gonna have wilful resilience. And to
Speaker 13: have that willful resilience, we've got to keep our eye
Speaker 13: on the prize, on what we're trying to accomplish, and
Speaker 13: also take care of ourselves. Make sure we're getting proper resk.
Speaker 13: How many times I'm sending you to Angela, are you
Speaker 13: getting some resk? Are you drinking your water? Are you
Speaker 13: are you deconnecting? Because I'm preaching that you to myself
Speaker 13: because I struggle with that too, because I feel that grind.
Speaker 13: But if I'm not well and healthy, then my family
Speaker 13: won't be well and healthy, my neighborhood, my community, and
Speaker 13: so forth.
Speaker 3: And so on. A word every time, every time I
Speaker 3: was going to ask you to d You know, we're
Speaker 3: living in this era now where banned books is the norm.
Speaker 3: On the tour, we've given away so many banned books,
Speaker 3: and we were at the same time folks are fighting
Speaker 3: about history being accurately reflected in textbooks and classrooms, but
Speaker 3: also on the National Park Services site for the federal government,
Speaker 3: before they were proactively banning books, they were still at
Speaker 3: least banning history. Read the Tulsa history in some of
Speaker 3: your own textbooks. Can you please tell our audience do
Speaker 3: when you first learned about the Tulsa Race massacre, how
Speaker 3: old you were, where you were, and how that is
Speaker 3: a similar experience for so many, too many students in Tulsa, no.
Speaker 6: Question about it.
Speaker 13: You know, I went to school in middle school, Cover
Speaker 13: middle School right on Greenwood Avenue, went to a great
Speaker 13: booker to Washington High School, which is a pride of
Speaker 13: Greenwood and North Tulsa. And I didn't learn anything about
Speaker 13: the massacre too. I was sitting in intro to African
Speaker 13: American Studies class and I was a football play at Universal, Oklahoma.
Speaker 13: I'm just in the class trying to chill, and the
Speaker 13: professor started talking about Tulsa and the massacre. They called
Speaker 13: it riot at the time, and I was like, Nah,
Speaker 13: that's not accurate. I raised my hands in man, I'm
Speaker 13: from North Tulsa. That's not true. And obviously I was wrong.
Speaker 13: That was nineteen ninety seven. I was twenty two, twenty one.
Speaker 6: Twenty two years old before I heard about it, and
Speaker 6: it changed my life. It changed my life. I was
Speaker 6: so embarrassed. I couldn't believe I had a degree my
Speaker 6: socials degrees in history.
Speaker 13: I have a social degree in history and now I'm
Speaker 13: not at a four year school playing ball, and I
Speaker 13: didn't know my own history, of my own backyard, and that.
Speaker 6: Changed my life.
Speaker 13: Ever since that day, I've been passionate and pretty much
Speaker 13: some people stay obsessed who and making sure that we
Speaker 13: educate about not just the massacre though, but Greenwood as
Speaker 13: a whole, and then also advocate for justice and reparations.
Speaker 3: I think it's so powerful for people to hear that,
Speaker 3: because one, I don't want them to be ashamed that
Speaker 3: professor d altered the trajectory of your life's purpose and mission.
Speaker 3: And even though it was late, it wasn't too late.
Speaker 3: It was actually right on time. And I think it's
Speaker 3: important for our folks to know whether you get the
Speaker 3: experience of learning our history as it should be told
Speaker 3: in the history book, or you learn it at home,
Speaker 3: which is what I had. That is the privilege I have.
Speaker 3: Often think about privilege as a spectrum. I have black
Speaker 3: art on the walls and black books on the shelves
Speaker 3: because my parents didn't play about that. But that's not
Speaker 3: everybody's truth. Everybody can't even afford that. So what else
Speaker 3: are you all doing, especially about ensuring that this generation
Speaker 3: of you Tulson's folks that are at least tangentially associated
Speaker 3: with Greenwood never forget because they won't have to.
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, that's why the holiday was so important.
Speaker 13: I don't believe holidays and up themselves is enough preparatory justice,
Speaker 13: but it was important to make sure that.
Speaker 6: This history was never erased. For eighty years, the city
Speaker 6: of Tulsa denied that the masks even happened.
Speaker 13: Now we have an actual official city holiday that's going
Speaker 13: to be celebrated every year. So that's one thing we're doing.
Speaker 13: And then Justice for Greenwoo for all those who want
Speaker 13: to connect with our work. At Justicefgreenwood dot org. We
Speaker 13: have a whole genealogy department. We have five outstanding genealogists,
Speaker 13: and today we have a descended community, the largest in
Speaker 13: the nation, of almost a thousand people. We've done the
Speaker 13: genealogy for almost three hundred of those individuals where we
Speaker 13: concertify what we call chronicle.
Speaker 6: That they are who they say they are.
Speaker 13: We've done oil histories of over seventy of these individuals
Speaker 13: and we're going to be having an archive and putting
Speaker 13: forth those ore histories so they're there and that's an
Speaker 13: ongoing process. And every time someone does an or history
Speaker 13: with us, we give them a five hundred dollars honor
Speaker 13: for their time and for them participating in their own liberation.
Speaker 6: And so those are some of the things that we're
Speaker 6: doing and we're just looking forward to continue to connect.
Speaker 13: If you think you may be a Tulsa, a Greenwood descendant,
Speaker 13: just give us a call, go to Justice Free God
Speaker 13: or our genealogist is completely free. We also work very
Speaker 13: closely with our Black Indians who helped build Greenwood, particularly
Speaker 13: the Black Creek Indians, which I am one who helped
Speaker 13: build Greenwood, to do that genealogy and just bringing this
Speaker 13: history to the forefront, because without the Black Indians, there
Speaker 13: is no Greenwood. And if you don't have justice for
Speaker 13: the Black Indians, there is no justice for Black green
Speaker 13: for Greenwood. And I will say we do have a
Speaker 13: Supreme Court hearing in the Moscoia Creek Nation coming up
Speaker 13: on June tenth.
Speaker 6: We beat them back two years ago and they're ap.
Speaker 13: Pilling this and if we are successful, over one hundred
Speaker 13: thousand black people who are Creek ancestry, we'll have citizenship
Speaker 13: rights within the Creek Nation.
Speaker 6: Not on ely would they regain their heritage and their
Speaker 6: birth right who they are.
Speaker 13: But they have access to life alter and life saving
Speaker 13: resources like healthcare, educations, allarships, housing, childcare, et cetera. So
Speaker 13: you guys be praying for us on June tenth as
Speaker 13: we bring that justice for Black Creeks. As a part
Speaker 13: about justice for Greenwood work, we.
Speaker 1: Have to have you back because that the case that
Speaker 1: you have with the Black Creeks is fascinating, and that
Speaker 1: was a history I didn't know. I obviously knew there
Speaker 1: were black Indians, but I didn't know the specifics around
Speaker 1: what happened with the black creeks in Oklahoma.
Speaker 4: I would love to have you back talk about that.
Speaker 3: I'd love to do it, Mario. I know you gotta go,
Speaker 3: But before you go, unless Andrew has something.
Speaker 5: No, because I'm watching the clock, and.
Speaker 3: Very quick, because you've made me lay to a meeting
Speaker 3: before too. Of course, I just this is my brother, y'all.
Speaker 3: I just got to ask you this really quick. Mayor
Speaker 3: Nichols stood ten toes down in his courage. And there
Speaker 3: are other elected officials who find themselves now or they
Speaker 3: may soon, in similarly situated positions. What advice do you
Speaker 3: have for them around, you know, making a community hall
Speaker 3: after race massacre, making a community hall after you know, slavery,
Speaker 3: making a committee a community hall around redlining. Whatever the
Speaker 3: local impact or the state base or the national impact
Speaker 3: has been, what advice do you have for them?
Speaker 13: Act act at Bowld leads back courageously do and I
Speaker 13: would go back to Mayor Nichols.
Speaker 6: Do the right and decent thing, listen.
Speaker 13: I know, brother reus Morgan at a lot of flak
Speaker 13: because he's you know, he vetold a study.
Speaker 6: I'm on the I'm in the in the in the
Speaker 6: camp of we don't need very many more studies. Act,
Speaker 6: bring legislation. Do what Mayor Nichols did.
Speaker 13: He acted upon actual recommendations that came from the people
Speaker 13: on the ground.
Speaker 6: So go, if you elected an official, deal with the people.
Speaker 13: On the ground that the actual experts, bring them in,
Speaker 13: let them know what you can do, and then do
Speaker 13: what you can. Like you said, Angela, we had thirteen
Speaker 13: points we wanted to see happened.
Speaker 6: We didn't get all thirteen. There were some things that
Speaker 6: at the mayor at this point just maybe he can
Speaker 6: get done. Okay, fine, that's work.
Speaker 3: What we can do.
Speaker 13: So do what you can if you elected official, do
Speaker 13: what you can. One thing that we see with the
Speaker 13: Trump administration and Republicans in general that you.
Speaker 6: Have to respect. They exercise the power when they get it.
Speaker 13: They take care of their people. They don't say, well, hey,
Speaker 13: I don't know how this is going to work out.
Speaker 4: They do it.
Speaker 6: And that's what we need.
Speaker 13: The people on our side, be it the people on
Speaker 13: the progressive side or it's the so quote unquote left
Speaker 13: or black elected of leaders, because as the one sister
Speaker 13: said in the commisment speaks, black faces and high spaces
Speaker 13: won't save us, especially if they're not actually using their power.
Speaker 6: So my deal is just act, be courageous, and do
Speaker 6: the good and decent thing.
Speaker 5: I love that. Man. Thank you your gift, your gift
Speaker 5: not to just the folks in Oklahoma, your gift to
Speaker 5: all of us.
Speaker 9: Man.
Speaker 6: Oh, I appreciate you.
Speaker 3: And Tippy does have dogs? Where your dogs at?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 4: I know all about the dogs.
Speaker 3: You already know.
Speaker 13: I know me A's babies, and yeah, I'll put them
Speaker 13: over because I didn't want to get in trouble with
Speaker 13: the pot folks.
Speaker 6: They started barking and whatnot.
Speaker 5: No to the show conducted with them.
Speaker 3: We had a big gretch on here. Gretchen Whitmer, she
Speaker 3: had dogs. She made Tip made a lifted that five
Speaker 3: hundred pounds. You have to see the dog. So I
Speaker 3: just was gonna see if you have show she loved
Speaker 3: to make.
Speaker 13: But she gets all type of pictures all the time
Speaker 13: like her and me and talk all the time. So yeah,
Speaker 13: well listen, I'm looking forward to seeing you all in
Speaker 13: Baltimore and connecting with you guys.
Speaker 6: Because I'll be done with a lot of this litigation
Speaker 6: my birthday, Like I said, June fifteenth, forty.
Speaker 2: Nine, Happy birthday, Baltimore.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that I'd be there.
Speaker 3: Listen, Yeah, you gotta do a panic. I told you
Speaker 3: you got to reach out to may Or Nicolas. See
Speaker 3: can he come. I'll certainly do this as the elected
Speaker 3: officials need to hear from him on what it took
Speaker 3: and what his next because this ain't the in this
Speaker 3: is the beginning, as he said, and as you said, Yeah.
Speaker 13: Angela, you were at one of those meetings, and you
Speaker 13: know we talked to him about, hey, he could really
Speaker 13: be a trend set of here.
Speaker 6: And I think this is a model you know Greenwood,
Speaker 6: And I know I got a jump.
Speaker 3: But Greenwood was a this on you.
Speaker 6: Greenwood was a national model for Black America, for black people.
Speaker 13: What we're doing now Greenwood would be the national model
Speaker 13: for cities around this country or how to repair the harm.
Speaker 13: We have a particular formula that I'm looking forward to
Speaker 13: share it with those when we come to Baltimore. How
Speaker 13: you organize, mobilized, educate, and galvanize the community towards action.
Speaker 13: This didn't happen another vacuum, and it took the time.
Speaker 13: This was a marathon out of spread. Many times I
Speaker 13: get upset about the marathon. But this can happen in
Speaker 13: other cities, particularly with city Tulsa is only eighteen percent black.
Speaker 13: You got cities out here twenty five, thirty, forty percent.
Speaker 6: Come on.
Speaker 13: But there's a formula to make this happen, and we
Speaker 13: know what that formula is. And then with Mayor and Nichols,
Speaker 13: he can talk it from the elected leader side.
Speaker 3: I love it, thank you, I Looktimore.
Speaker 4: That was excellent. I just I loved love me. I
Speaker 4: love his dogs.
Speaker 5: All right, Before we close it out today, we got
Speaker 5: to take it into that breakpace. Some bills we'll see
Speaker 5: on that side.
Speaker 1: I'm would just tell you I will say the thing
Speaker 1: that my co host may be a little uncomfortable with.
Speaker 1: But I do have to say that if we can't
Speaker 1: even act on a study with respect to Governor Wes Moore,
Speaker 1: because people ask like, are you all gonna talk about this?
Speaker 1: You're gonnaddress this? I mean, these are the things that
Speaker 1: we have to lead with conviction. And this is also
Speaker 1: the space where we center other folks comfort. We're censuring
Speaker 1: white comfort in that, and it is disheartening when we
Speaker 1: expect someone who looks like us, someone who knows firsthand,
Speaker 1: to act on our behalf, and then they do not.
Speaker 1: So I'd be curious if he ever wants to come
Speaker 1: on the podcast. He has an open invitation, because I
Speaker 1: would love to hear his rationale and his thoughts about
Speaker 1: why he vetoed uh this study for reparations, just as background,
Speaker 1: Governor Wes Moore, who is the first black governor of Maryland,
Speaker 1: vetoed a reparation just a bill to study what reparations
Speaker 1: would look like. And I've seen your comments asking us
Speaker 1: to talk about it, So here we are talking about it.
Speaker 4: You know, we'll we'll address it.
Speaker 1: We have a relationship with the governor and I'm I
Speaker 1: don't know for certain, but I'm I would imagine that
Speaker 1: he or somebody on his team may have heard from Angela.
Speaker 4: I don't know. This is me speculating.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm sure when that announcement came out,
Speaker 1: but he heard from a lot of people about it.
Speaker 4: So that's out of my name.
Speaker 3: But hold on, angree, because you know when they do
Speaker 3: that in the debate, when your name is thrown.
Speaker 5: Research, I promise.
Speaker 4: So let me just say this first.
Speaker 3: I think that it is right that many of us
Speaker 3: and I'm including myself in this, are so tired of
Speaker 3: a study like we don't have to study this. You
Speaker 3: can see the societal impact even what you brought up
Speaker 3: earlier about we have been trained to shrink in spaces.
Speaker 3: That was for safety and it is a generational trauma
Speaker 3: that we carry. That is an example of what slavery
Speaker 3: has done to our people. We don't need no more studies.
Speaker 3: In Maryland itself, they have studied the impact and the
Speaker 3: harms of slavery over and over again. They have those results.
Speaker 3: My advice to the governor and to his brilliant wife,
Speaker 3: Don who is also a tremendous advisor, and to so
Speaker 3: many others is to act just like de Mario said,
Speaker 3: it is to implement. If we know the conclusions of
Speaker 3: those studies, let us publish, publicize those studies. Let's tell
Speaker 3: people where they are and what can be done given
Speaker 3: the climate that we're in. I think if we know
Speaker 3: that the President of the United States is probably very
Speaker 3: threatened by Governor Wes Moore, you going to be hit anyway,
Speaker 3: you know, so let's be clear about the fact that
Speaker 3: you can't shrink from that and so live in and
Speaker 3: embody the same courage that it took to get you there.
Speaker 3: He has so much support in Maryland, and I think
Speaker 3: that if I would have advised anything, it would have
Speaker 3: been for them to be clear with the Black Caucus
Speaker 3: on the front end. You know, Maryland writ large is
Speaker 3: a really tremendous example of what black political power can
Speaker 3: and should look like, especially when you represent so many
Speaker 3: black folks in the state. So I just want to
Speaker 3: see them on the same page. And I don't think
Speaker 3: that they're that far apart. I think that the legislature
Speaker 3: did what we knew what they know that we know
Speaker 3: what they know to do based on even once it's
Speaker 3: been done in HR forty every Congress, and that can't
Speaker 3: even get out the Judiciary Committee. It dies in the
Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee, even when Democrats are in charge. So they
Speaker 3: did the easier thing because they thought this was the
Speaker 3: least the most reasonable service. But in an era where
Speaker 3: we're being attacked on DEI and equity and Affirmative Act
Speaker 3: SIN and still incarcerated for stuff for no reason, we
Speaker 3: should be able to do more than look at the harms.
Speaker 3: We should be able to implement solutions for the harms
Speaker 3: that exist.
Speaker 1: Well, let me just conversation. Tell your friends the please
Speaker 1: to the show. We are tight on time, Handrew, And I.
Speaker 5: Know anyway you want to talk about the budget, I'm
Speaker 5: going to say this part and maybe this will become
Speaker 5: the many part.
Speaker 4: You want your call to action?
Speaker 5: Did you want to talk about it this part too?
Speaker 2: It'll be this part, Tiff.
Speaker 3: He said, it's the mini part.
Speaker 5: Yes, clearly, all of those. It's all those things. I
Speaker 5: have too many thoughts on the on the Maryland situation. Uh,
Speaker 5: but I prefer to lift up brother Nichols, the mayor
Speaker 5: of Tulsa, the first black mayor of Tulsa. I followed,
Speaker 5: you know, from the outside a bit of his race,
Speaker 5: and I saw interviews that were being done mostly of
Speaker 5: white citizens and Tulsa who prior to the election, we're
Speaker 5: expressing views of he can help, heal the wounds. He
Speaker 5: can you know, he's just like my son. He's a
Speaker 5: regular guy who just wants to do good things. I
Speaker 5: remember those comments. They're familiar to me and the races
Speaker 5: I've run. I've never been elected to a seat that's
Speaker 5: been majority black, and not even close to in most
Speaker 5: races I've ever run. And in this case, the courage
Speaker 5: that this brother had to summon. When people put you
Speaker 5: in a place because they think you're going to when
Speaker 5: they say heal the wounds, they really do move past it, right,
Speaker 5: and by virtue of us putting you at the helm
Speaker 5: of this government, let this be noticed that we're moving
Speaker 5: past it. Brother Nicholas took that as a different admission.
Speaker 5: He thought you were not only putting him there to
Speaker 5: do the right thing by everybody, but he really does
Speaker 5: mean everybody, including the historic everybody that were impacted by
Speaker 5: the history in that city as relates to the Greener
Speaker 5: community and the Tulsa Race massacre. But I still can't
Speaker 5: let the moment pass without giving the brother his due,
Speaker 5: because he's in a place where you could see him
Speaker 5: tiptoeing around it, if touching it at all, or finding
Speaker 5: it much more convenient to maybe commission a study. We're
Speaker 5: not talking about a man who's in a place where
Speaker 5: they're thirty five percent of the population are black, where
Speaker 5: you're surrounded in your church and your grocery store, and
Speaker 5: in your neighborhoods wealthy or poor by people who look
Speaker 5: like you, Maryland. We're talking about a place where it's
Speaker 5: in some way, it's probably still uncomfortable to be in
Speaker 5: the skin he's in. Yet he chose to take the
Speaker 5: position that he was in, take the whole of the government,
Speaker 5: and acknowledge a wrong doing, a harm that was done.
Speaker 5: Which is why I wanted to hear Tomorrio's thoughts on that,
Speaker 5: because I imagined, as he expressed, that you would be
Speaker 5: in a place of almost disbelief and maybe a sigh
Speaker 5: of relief, that you would breathe the deepest breath you
Speaker 5: breathed in a long time when you get to hear
Speaker 5: the government, because he's not just a black man. Just
Speaker 5: as when I talked about people protesting me, I wasn't
Speaker 5: just the ally it's sitting in on a floor. I
Speaker 5: was representing the government. And when you do that, it matters.
Speaker 5: So for the cowards out there, may you learn. But
Speaker 5: I hope that this man will be an example of
Speaker 5: the things that are possible when preparation and opportunity meet
Speaker 5: and you happen to be in position to make the play.
Speaker 5: And I thought that given the horrors of what occurred,
Speaker 5: and frankly, the disappointment after disappointment after disappointment that have
Speaker 5: been felt that that was a powerful thing to do.
Speaker 5: And we hear a lot of time from listeners and
Speaker 5: others and commenters of how government doesn't work. It don't
Speaker 5: do nothing for us, It hadn't changed anything for me.
Speaker 5: We owe it to them to lift it up when
Speaker 5: it actually does work, and it does the courageous and
Speaker 5: the right thing, and there are people who can lift
Speaker 5: to benefit from it and tell about it, and now
Speaker 5: we can go on to all the other great things.
Speaker 4: Well, the question I was.
Speaker 1: Trying to ask you is did you want to do
Speaker 1: the budget or do y'all want to keep this one care?
Speaker 1: We can keep this conversation going to make it a
Speaker 1: two parter.
Speaker 4: If we can.
Speaker 3: I would love for us to talk about the budget,
Speaker 3: because I like what you suggested, Tiff about the idea
Speaker 3: of inviting wes On to be able to speak for
Speaker 3: himself unless you're wanting to back it out of Maryland
Speaker 3: and have a broader conversation on what's required of elected.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's do CTA's real quick and then let's
Speaker 1: go right into the budget.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'd be really really fast. My call to action
Speaker 3: for this week y'all know I've been heavy on this
Speaker 3: State of the People Power tour, and the tour concludes
Speaker 3: Andrew wisniff right in the middle of my stuff. But
Speaker 3: when the tour concludes this week in Los Angeles, we
Speaker 3: are going to be gearing up for our Juneteenth celebration
Speaker 3: and convening our National Assembly in Baltimore, Maryland. We start
Speaker 3: on Juneteenth, which for those of you who don't know,
Speaker 3: is June nineteenth, and we go through the twenty first.
Speaker 3: It will be so amazing. I am going to ask
Speaker 3: in this for a call to action to be that
Speaker 3: Andrew and Tiff will help to moderate one of those
Speaker 3: conversations that are going to be amazing around our black papers.
Speaker 3: And I think that we should be there, you know,
Speaker 3: as much as we can, even if we do some
Speaker 3: mini pods to wrap ups or you know, just to
Speaker 3: kick things off on each day. I think that would
Speaker 3: be dope. There's some ideas, but please make sure you
Speaker 3: register at STATEOFTHEPPL dot com slash Baltimore. You all, I
Speaker 3: can't tell you how spiritual I feel like it's going
Speaker 3: to be. Already We're going to be an empowerment simple
Speaker 3: AAMI church. You cannot just pop up up, can that
Speaker 3: pop out and show? As Kidrick could say, you got
Speaker 3: to actually make sure you register. We don't really want
Speaker 3: to do registration on site because we want to know
Speaker 3: how much food to feed y'all. And guess what, y'all
Speaker 3: is great? You got to get your reparations somewhere. It's
Speaker 3: from your people. So come on Baltimore, Maryland, and I'm
Speaker 3: gona yield to Tip and Andrew.
Speaker 1: All right, I will yield my time to Andrew's call
Speaker 1: to action because I echo all of his thoughts there in.
Speaker 4: Essence of time.
Speaker 1: We want to say, you know, we've gone on a
Speaker 1: while on this podcast. Thank you guys for tuning in.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed the episode, please share with your friends,
Speaker 1: tell somebody like subscribe, do all the things. You can
Speaker 1: check out other shows on Reason Choice Media. Our girl
Speaker 1: Jamel has politics and there are gonna be some new
Speaker 1: shows dropping, so stay tuned here to pick that up.
Speaker 1: Be sure to tune into this week's mini pod. We're
Speaker 1: gonna get into the budget. I don't know how many
Speaker 1: days there are to midterm elections, because I don't know
Speaker 1: that midterm elections matter anymore.
Speaker 4: So that's my hopeless.
Speaker 12: Say this.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say that, Jim, let me screw it out.
Speaker 1: Five hundred, I'm many, sixteen days. All right, Thank y'all,
Speaker 1: Welcome home morning.
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining the Natives.
Speaker 14: Attention to what the info and all of the latest
Speaker 14: rock gulum and cross connected to the statements that.
Speaker 5: You leave on our socials.
Speaker 3: Thank you sincerely for the patients.
Speaker 14: Reason for your choice is clear, so grateful it took
Speaker 14: the execute role for serve, defend, and protect the truth,
Speaker 14: even if paint we welcome home to all of.
Speaker 2: The Natives wait.
Speaker 12: Thank you.
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