1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Big shout out to our 4 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: super producer, Mr Max Williams. Big shout out to Mr 5 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: Noel Brown. They called me Ben. We want to shout 6 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: out one guy in particular for this episode of Primary 7 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: Source and almost everything about this story. Uh Dr John Waller. 8 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Uh we even and this is true. We even worked 9 00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: on a little song about today's episode. Uh we're ready, 10 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: pretty apple face. Oh let's see. Uh now, No, you're 11 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: the probably the most musically gifted. I'm forgetting how the 12 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: synth part in Dancing Queen goes. You can add it 13 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, no spoilers please, Well we got we got. 14 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Let's all right, here we go. Our song for this 15 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: is dancing plague, Jump and yell and then must scream 16 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: all day something something had to be that way. It 17 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: was a dancing plague. I can't you know. Oh my goodness. Yeah, 18 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: but they're fantastic, aren't they Swedish? They're Swedish, right, yeah? Yeah, 19 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: so you know the Swede is responsible for the food pyramid. 20 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: Uh at ikea. They're obviously really good at design and 21 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: they know how to pump out the bangers because also 22 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: like Max Martin and a lot of these like kind 23 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: of hit factory producers, they're they're Swedish. It's it's a 24 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: it's a whole thing. But uh, yeah, we're not really 25 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: talking about Sweden specifically today. We are talking about a 26 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: dancing playing them. Yeah, it's a real thing. Okay, So 27 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: here's this story. In July of fifteen eighteen, residents of 28 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: a city called Strasbourg, which is still around. It was 29 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: part of the Holy Roman Empire at the time, all 30 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden, they were out dancing in the street 31 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: like that oldies song about summers here and the time 32 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: is right. But they didn't want to dance. They had 33 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: an uncontrollable urge, a compulsion, uh, some kind of mass hysteria, 34 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: you might call it. A lady stepped into the street 35 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: and then, apparently, you know, without music and without a 36 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: particularly joyful look, she started to twist, twirl and sort 37 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: of there was there was shouting promised in the song. 38 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: There was definitely shouting in this plague. Yeah, okay, so 39 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: she she is doing this right pretty consistently. According to 40 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: the story, for almost a week. And by the time 41 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: this she's been doing this for almost a week, more 42 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: than three dozen other residents of the city are also 43 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: out there kind of and I don't yeah, there we go. 44 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if it looked like actual dancing or 45 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: if it looked like a bunch of people having seizures. Yeah, 46 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: probably more the latter, I would I would think. But 47 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: it's true. By August there was an epidemic and it 48 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: wasn't just fun and games. It wasn't just dancing in 49 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: the streets with David Bowie and Mick Jagger, you know, 50 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: jerking around out there. People died. Yeah, and it's it's 51 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: so strange. We'll get into it right now. It sounds 52 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: like these events might be apocryphal, right, It might be 53 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: kind of a legend, like the calendar heist we talked 54 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: about and stuff they don't want you to know. But 55 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: the thing is, there is clear sourcing, there's clear documentation 56 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: and evidence, thanks for the work of John Waller, that 57 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: this did happen. As a matter of fact, there's more 58 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: than one dancing plague. It started to get the street names. 59 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: It's catching st. Virus's dance they were calling it. And 60 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of people wrote about this, Monks, priest, physicians, historians. Uh, 61 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: you can even find orders from law enforcement at the 62 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: time that are like, what the heck is happening? Would 63 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: this have been the kind of thing at this time 64 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: and history that would have been more likely associated with 65 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: some sort of demonic presence than than perhaps the medical 66 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: malady h I think actually we'll get to this too. 67 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 1: I think the physicians, contemporary medical experts at the time 68 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: didn't know what on earth was happening, so they blamed 69 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: the issue on hot blood. He said, you got hot blood, 70 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: shake it out, shake it out, leach it out of you. Yeah, yeah, 71 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: do a little blooding. And then the leach just started dance. 72 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Of course, of course they got hot blood. They just 73 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: drink hot blood. Hot blooded blood is running, so eating 74 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: oh my blood, but dancing. I'm doing this off top 75 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: my head. We would be so funny. Karay okay, no's 76 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: a real show supper with it. I mean that sincerely. 77 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: I appreciate them, enjoy it'd be awkward if I thought 78 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: you were terrible And no, it's like, hey, but you're 79 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: getting out there. That's you've you've seen me, You've seen 80 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: you've seen my chops. I got the Karry, I got 81 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: the Yoki chops. We've been around the world together. Well, 82 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: we will be around the world. We'll circumnavigate. At some 83 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: point I I I can't find my baby. Sorry, please, 84 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 1: let's do it. Let's do so. Uh So the most 85 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: famous of these incidents of dancing plagues happened in fifteen eighteen. 86 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: Like we talked to out, Strasbourg is now on the 87 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: eastern border of modern day France. It's about two hours 88 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: west of stute Guard, the most German sounding city and 89 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: all of Germany. Yeah, you went to stute Guard, right, 90 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: I went to I went to Berlin and then I 91 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: went to Leipzig. But but I would argue is definitely 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: a little more German sounding. Yeah, it almost sounds like 93 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: a curse, like calling someone, Uh you are an unrepentant 94 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: stute gut sir. Okay. So we talked about this, this 95 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: person lady that we believe set off the dance. She's 96 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: called Frau or you know, mrs basically trope up and 97 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: she kept dancing until she collapsed. Like as stute listeners, 98 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's impossible for someone to dance without stopping 99 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: for almost a week. So she would dance until she 100 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: physically collapsed, and then when her body had rested up, 101 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: as soon as she came to she started dancing again 102 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: and thirty people seemed to somehow catch this. No one 103 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: had any idea, how is it being communicated? Right? Is 104 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: this miasma? Is there something biting people? Is there something 105 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: in the water? Post black plague? This is gonna be 106 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: during the Black this is gonna be after the Black plague. 107 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: Black figuring out these types of transmission sources and all 108 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: of that. They're also very much working live. Oh yeah, yeah, 109 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: the Black the Black plague has um is still to 110 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: this day the most fatal pandemic and known history. And 111 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: it was a wave of infections from I think in Europe. 112 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: It peaked from thirteen seven to thirteen fifty one. So 113 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: people were aware and it took a bit for them 114 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: to figure out that it was rats that were that 115 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: were the vector right right, carrying those fleas. Yeah, that's 116 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: the that that's the modern understanding. They didn't have that 117 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: understanding at this point. They were just very scared, as 118 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: they should have been. Uh So, this fifteen event is 119 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: probably the last of several outbreaks that predated the Black plague. 120 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: There's there's hints that these things also occurred in the 121 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: tenth century all the way through the sixte The first 122 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: one took place in thirteen seventy four, so like right 123 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: after the peak of the Black plague, and it was 124 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: around the Rhine River. So maybe we talked about some 125 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: of these other plagues just to give people a sense 126 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: of like how common this one. I don't want to 127 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: see common. But it was more than one isolated, it's, 128 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: oh for sure. In another city in Germany or a 129 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: town named Kolbi, on Christmas Eve of ten one eighteen, 130 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: people that were hanging out outside of a church started 131 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: to wildly gesticulate uh spasmodically. The priest Um was not 132 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: able to carry on with the traditional Christmas Eve mass 133 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: because of this chaos happening outside in the streets. He 134 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: asked them to stop, but they the dance was within them, 135 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: you know, um, and he started to think maybe there 136 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: was some demon at play. Was referred to by historians 137 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: as a ring dance of sin. There was all kinds 138 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: of untoward behavior, leaping, you know, chanting, clapping, you know. Yeah, 139 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: the priest was absolutely livid um and according to historians 140 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: or even local. I guess what you would consider journalists 141 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: of the time the priest actually, you know, because at 142 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: the time, of course, priests were the law of the land. 143 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: In many ways, they had more power than the government. Um, 144 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: he cursed them to dance for one year's time in 145 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: order to punish them for what he saw as some 146 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: sort of you know, spontaneous revel kind of right. That's 147 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: so that's so crazy too, the idea that a Christian 148 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: priest is out here putting curses on people. You know, 149 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: that's not very Christian. It doesn't feel like that. But 150 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: all right, if you are the average person in the 151 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: medieval Eire at this time, this story seems actually easy 152 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: to believe. People start saying, well, the ways of God 153 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: are mysterious, you know, there's a hidden world all around us, 154 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: and this must be the result of uh something those 155 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: people did wrong and responsible for this. But it's definitely 156 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: not me right exactly, and we don't know a ton 157 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: about the chronicler. Think of it like a historian who 158 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: is writing about this, But we can't dismiss it as 159 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: pure invention. It seems like they at the very least 160 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: embellished a true event. You know, the way lifetime producers 161 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: when they make movies. Uh. The the issue is that 162 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: plenty of other sources talk about these bouts of unstoppable, 163 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: sometimes fatal dancing in just a few centuries later, in 164 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: twelve forty seven in another German town. So far this 165 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: is a German thing. And really quickly, speaking of sources 166 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: once again, John Waller check out his piece or his 167 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: his research published in the British Psychological Society Dancing Plagues 168 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: and mass Hysteria, because we've reported or done episodes on 169 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: mass hysteria in ridiculous history, but also specifically, uh, and 170 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know, because mass hysteria 171 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: oftentimes there was some underlying medical cause, but a lot 172 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: of times too it was people following the lead of 173 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: those who were maybe vacant. Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely And 174 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: this so this happens now we're talking two hundred people 175 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: in this German town, Erfort, not quite Stuttgard, but it's 176 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: still very German. And another outbreak happens in thirteen seventy four, 177 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 1: and this one is the one we teased earlier, multiple 178 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: like dozens of towns along the Rhine River. The effort one, 179 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: by the way, too, was on a bridge over the 180 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: Mossill River. Just this, this proximity to rivers, I think 181 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: may well become a theme here. But just just just 182 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: doing a little mild foreshadowing. Yeah, good to note. And 183 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: within a few weeks in these towns along the Rhine River, 184 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: it was obvious there was a huge problem. The epidemic 185 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: went on unchecked for months. And again, although it sounds 186 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: really funny, we have to realize these people were having 187 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: it was having terrible effects on their on their health. 188 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: They were dancing until they collapsed, you know, just like 189 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: that curse in hocus Pocus the first one sure, or 190 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, a thing that often happened is in the 191 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of ritual ceremonies, perhaps like if you've ever seen 192 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: the movie in Midsummer Um, there's a kind of a 193 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: what is it may Mayfair kind of tradition where it's 194 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: like a dancing contest and whoever literally is the last 195 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: person standing is crowned the may queen or whatever. And again, 196 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I mean this is a movie, I don't know how 197 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: accurate that is, but I've also seen this in other 198 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: forms of lore. You know, the idea of like being 199 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: the last person standing in a wild dance competition. Yeah, 200 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: and there are other This is a time of other 201 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: strange compulsions. If you go outside of Germany to the 202 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: Spanish Netherlands, then you'll see in there were there was 203 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: this group of nuns that were quote unquote possessed by 204 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: evil spirits that compelled them to get the zoomies like 205 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: a cute little dog jump out of trees or meow 206 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: and cause play cats trying to climb trees. Not the 207 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: same not the same thing as dancing, but still weird, right, 208 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: very weird. And I want to just say, can you 209 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: imagine being, you know, attacked by a nun who jumps 210 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: out at you from the branches of a tall tree. 211 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: That sounds like about the most terrifying thing I could 212 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: possibly picture. Uh they only it only be scarier if 213 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: the nun was also a clown, like a clown nun 214 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: hoping not. I hope it's not a widespread thing, but uh, 215 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: all right, So you go over the next few centuries 216 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: and you see that, uh, nunner reas in general from 217 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Rome to Paris are uh they're they're becoming these hot 218 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: spots for delirium, for what appears to be outbreaks and 219 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: mass hysteria We're talking people seemingly without explanation, foaming, screaming, uh, 220 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: violating various social taboos about sexuality and behavior comportion of 221 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: a holy woman, uh, and then even making these wild 222 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: extravagant claims like I have I have had tex with 223 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: demons or Jesus Christ or both. Yeah. I mean a 224 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff historically makes sense to have served 225 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: as some you know, inspiration for fictional accounts of zombie 226 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: type scenarios, you know, where everyone all of a sudden 227 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: becomes this mindless kind of drone, acting not of their 228 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: own volition. And it really reminds me a lot of 229 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: this show based on the video game The Last of Us, 230 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: where these court accepts, uh, you know, fungi that actually 231 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: are real and infects ants and can cause them to 232 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: act not in their own best interest to benefit the 233 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: fungus um once again, fungus, fung fungi and mushrooms. Fascinating things, 234 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: probably the closest things to extra terrestrials that we have 235 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: that we have access to to study. But in that film, 236 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of these folks they have this 237 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: heard mentality, you know, and they all of a sudden, 238 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, wildly gesticulating and running around, and there are 239 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: state of it as well. Yeah, yeah, and this is 240 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: this is crazy stuff, right, And we also know that 241 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of there are a lot of tall 242 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: tales that get treated as fact from this period in history. 243 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: And when you do some diga and you find out 244 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: maybe there's more or less to the story than is 245 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: presented in popular culture today. But we do know the 246 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: dancing plagues of thirteen seventy four and fifteen eighteen actually 247 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: did happen. There's a lot of primary sourcing. Again, our 248 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: pal John has uh led the charge finding this, digging 249 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: into it. And so when we set the stage here, 250 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: I think it's time for us to answer, like the 251 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: the billion dollar question or attempt, what could have caused 252 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: this dancing plague? For this answer, we have to go 253 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: over to the Lancet another article by John Waller Forgotten 254 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: Plague Making sense of dancing mania? What what do we think? 255 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: What could have I know there are theories, right, there's 256 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: certainly our theories and there are theories that are also 257 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: associated with other forms of mass hysteria, one being the 258 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: accidental ingestion of er god, which is a mold that 259 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: grows on the stalks of rye crops and can cause hallucinations, 260 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: you know, essentially spasms or fits, tremors kind of you know, 261 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: shaking uncontrollably, and they certainly these types of things certainly 262 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: did occur in medieval Europe when people ate this contaminated flower. 263 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: But it's all about timing. And this is another thing 264 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: that was associated with I believe the witch trials and 265 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: Salem one of the theories, one of the theories. But 266 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: that's it's it's also been kind of debunked in that 267 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: historical event as well as it kind of has been 268 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: here because it doesn't quite seem to match up with 269 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: the scale of the thing, right because er God can 270 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: make uh something that's kind of a kissing cousin of LSD. 271 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: So the idea that is that people are behaving strangely 272 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: because I got her got poisoning and they're they're tripping essentially. 273 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: But John Waller is saying, you know it to your 274 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: point about timing, Noll, it's if you had that kind 275 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: of poisoning, it's unlikely that you would have hallucinated for 276 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: that long, for days at a time, unless you re 277 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: ingested the stuff, which is also unlikely if you were 278 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: in the the fit of uncontrollable you know, dancing. Yeah, 279 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: exactly so. So Waller, again, the world expert on this 280 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: does says it's not particularly tenable, but points out the 281 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: same thing that we were thinking about just off the 282 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: cuff here. Virtually every outbreak, according to him, occurred somewhere 283 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: along the Rhine and Moselle rivers. Uh. And he says, yes, 284 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: there's a lot of agriculture there at the time, but 285 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: they were in different climates, they were using different crops, 286 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: So how could these very different crops and climates producer 287 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: got such that it has the same effect. The thing is, 288 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: it does seem like the victims were having their minds 289 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: altered somehow. There seems to be something hallucinatory about this, 290 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: because that's near a superhuman level of endurance to physically 291 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: dance until you collapse, pop till you drop. Yeah, and 292 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: and maybe they're in a trance state. Again, it's not 293 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: like they're singing and inventing the hokey pokey. These are 294 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: people who are probably waking up terrified, right, And yeah, 295 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: it reminds me of you know, the LSD experiments done 296 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: you know under the CIA, which is so horrible when 297 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: you think about the idea of of dosing unsuspecting people 298 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: with a substance where they don't understand what's happening to them. 299 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: If anyone out there has ever, you know, experimented with 300 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: any kind of psychedelic substance before, you know that it's 301 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: something that can be very you know, all encompassing and 302 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: can be very scary or you know, based on whatever read. 303 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: But can you imagine not knowing what the source of 304 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: that feeling might be inford to come out of nowhere, 305 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: you would think you were dying. You would think you 306 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: were in some way, especially at the time here possessed. 307 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: And also a lot of the accounts of this do 308 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: sound like the folks were in physical pain outside of 309 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: just the act of dancing, that they were screaming out, 310 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: you know, in pain to be to be helped. They 311 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: were also apparently screaming out the names of devils. Uh. 312 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: This is this what I think is a little bit. 313 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't think this is reliable, but legend has it. 314 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: They showed strange aversions, the pointed shoes and the color red. Uh. 315 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: They would also say things like I'm drowning in a 316 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: red sea of blood and this is where I think 317 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: we we passed the mic to uh Max real quick. Uh, 318 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: I think we've got some Max with the facts on 319 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: the way, all right. So I got two things actually, 320 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: So the first most one is there's actually a drawing 321 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: of basically this outbreak, this plague from Peter Bruegel the Elder, 322 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: And for fans of the series, that might sound familiar 323 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: because he's the same guy who painted Curling. He's our 324 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: first known Curling. Is that sneaking enough and he's fallen 325 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: all just for you right now here? Fact. Yeah, so 326 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to the Curling episode, you should 327 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: go back and listen to that. But more interesting than 328 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: you might think. Just just putting that out there again. 329 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: But as I said, I got two things. And Ben, 330 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned the hookey pokey, and I just want to say, 331 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: did you guys know I used to be addicted to 332 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: the hooky pokey? Sorry, but you turned yourself around, myself 333 00:21:49,200 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: around all right? No, no, no, So speaking of hookie, 334 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: and not to to derail you, I want you to finish. 335 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: Isn't Ring around the Rosie a plague song too? That 336 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: describes a kind of uncontrollable dance that was being done. 337 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: I thought was scarlet fever. It is ring around the 338 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: rosie is a description of various of the black plague 339 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: at a various cures, purported cures. Okay, so the dance 340 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: wasn't an uncontrollable dance. It was sort of something that 341 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: was intended to ritualistically cure it because I know that 342 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: the ring around the rosie was describing literally a like 343 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: a mark some k or whatever they're called. Yeah, it's 344 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the physical, it's the it's the way the infection looks 345 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: on skin. It's really dark when you realize what that 346 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: nursery rhyme is about pocket full of posey being a 347 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: purported cure or a way to ward off the plague. 348 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: And then they all fall down a k A die 349 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: ashes ashes, and they're not talking about eating ashes for nutrition, 350 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: which is oh wait, this was this is coming out 351 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: before our Food Pyramid episode. Maybe we'll see it'll make sense. Yeah, yeah, 352 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: accidental teaser. So this picture that Brugal shows us is 353 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: pretty disturbing, especially because of the blank expressions of the 354 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: people dancing. They don't look like they're having fun. Have 355 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: you gotten to the part in elden Ring where there's 356 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: a village with all of these crazy like CULTI dancing people, 357 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: and it's very similar that they won't mess with you 358 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: unless you attack them first, but they have these blank 359 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: expressions and they're kind of all dancing, and I haven't 360 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: really gotten to I sort of took a pause on 361 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: that game because it was too hard, But um, I 362 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: feel like there's some lore hidden in some of the 363 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: items that you might pick up in that game that 364 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: might descry what's going on with these folks, and wouldn't 365 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: be surprised if it was inspired by something like this. 366 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: I also paused on Elden Ring. I went back to 367 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: sky Rim, and I think I was I was texting, um, 368 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: maybe maybe it was you Max where I realized that 369 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm at the level of Skyrim. I'm just trying to 370 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: get to level eighty now so I can just grind things. 371 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: But I'm basically I've turned it into animal crossing. I 372 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: go around in my little houses and build little improvements, 373 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, I collect fish. It's yeah, there was that 374 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: one day. It was off Mike, who was you, me 375 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: and uh obviously front of the podcast Pat Frederick and 376 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: I was talking about he's all like getting into sky 377 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: Rim and then you and I just went out a 378 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: rant about all the end games stuff and how not 379 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: much fun it is at the end, it's just kidding 380 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: houses and stuff. I think we really capped his ceiling 381 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: on what he thinks of that game now, No, I mean, 382 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: Matt's a beast though with those kind of games, so 383 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: he's really good at him He's pretty good. If you 384 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: want to learn more, check out the ephemeral second part 385 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: where we have Matt on talking about video games with 386 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: us beautiful and uh, you know you can feel like 387 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: you're I love that you're compared mentioning that elder ring thing. 388 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: We need to learn more about the lower there. But yeah, 389 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: that's that's a pretty strangely accurate depiction of what this 390 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: dancing plague looks like. We do know that psychologically, humans 391 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: still have the same hardware now as they did back then. 392 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: So if you have a lot of bad stress distress, 393 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: it increases your likelihood of succumbing to an involuntary trance state. 394 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: And then there's there's this interesting parallel that Waller draws. 395 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: He says this might not be a coincidence that the 396 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: dancing plague of thirteen seventy four was spreading in areas 397 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: that had suffered the worst consequences of a devastating flood. 398 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: M hmmm, yeah, I don't know. Like again, it feels 399 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: like something's in the water, right, yeah, I mean. And 400 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: also life just kind of stinks. Harvests are doing terribly 401 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: and again these are largely a grarian economies. The grain 402 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: prices are the highest they've ever been in most people's lifetime. 403 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: Syphilis is everywhere right Leopards, he's back. And oh if 404 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: that's not enough, guess what still here? Never left? Shout 405 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: out to the plague. Don't call it a come back. 406 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, things literally did stink, like actually because the 407 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: thing that was in the water was probably human waste. 408 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: We know about the Great Stink of London, you know, 409 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: and and how that led to sanitation reform. But this 410 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: is well before that, and there was a lot of 411 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: just human waste being thrown out into the streets and 412 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: running off into you know, the things that would feed 413 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: these bodies of water. Yeah. And if despair creates the 414 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, the tile soil for an extreme psychological reaction, 415 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: it still doesn't explain why so many people danced. Why 416 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: didn't they freak out and have riots, you know what 417 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: I mean? Why did no, one just kind of go 418 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: into a catatonic state. This is where you have to 419 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: look towards anthropology. And this is very interesting to us 420 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: because in stuff they want you to know, we've looked 421 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: at a lot of accounts of possession and exorcism and 422 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: mass possession like the Screaming Girls in Malaysia episodes, right, uh, 423 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: which is much more contemporary, and I think there's, if 424 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: not of that exact event, there is video and audio 425 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: of some of these instances of mass hysteria and it 426 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: is bone chilling. Yeah, no, it's dark. They are not 427 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: acting whatever is happening to them. They very much believe it. 428 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: Uh So, if you look at possession rituals, what you 429 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: see is there's a huge psychological aspect. People are more 430 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: likely to enter a trance state if they've expect it 431 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: to happen and that they will behave in a ritualistic manner, 432 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: and this manner in which they behave is shaped by 433 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: the cultural lens of their society. Does that have to 434 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: do with like people that are more susceptible to hypnosis 435 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and also just kind of like when you're in that situation, 436 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: you're sort of you're expecting and maybe hoping that you 437 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: will be put into a trance. You know what, I 438 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of sand to that one. 439 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: I think that's a great observation. Like we know, and 440 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: Waller points us out, we know that female mediums in Madagascar, 441 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: which has a very interesting religious background in comparison to 442 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: UM the African continent UH. In Madagascar, these mediums will 443 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: take on distinct personas of the spirits that are believed 444 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: to possess them. You also see this in Voudoun, where 445 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: there's the pantheon of gods that can ride or possess 446 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: practitioners in the UH. The people who are possessed by 447 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: these loa will then exhibit known personality traits. So that's 448 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: supernatural being. And you know, I said vudon, that's one 449 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: of the names of the belief system known today as voodoo. 450 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: V O d o you. So, now we kind of 451 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: get to the part of the story that maybe starts 452 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: to lean more into the idea of mass hysteria and 453 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: what might cause any psychological need or you know, influence 454 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: for behaving in this way. Yeah. Yes, So now we 455 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: look at some more primary sources, legal works of the day, 456 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: historical chronicles, even even unto paintings on altars. We see 457 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: that people were aware of this, and the zeitgeist of 458 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: the day was one of terror. People were not just 459 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: aware of this stuff happening, they were afraid it was 460 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: on the way to them. And if you lived by 461 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: a commercial waterway, you would probably be pretty terrified that 462 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: these spirits might one day hit your town next, you know, 463 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: because the one thing you know for sure is that 464 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: it's happening around water again. People are clocking this in 465 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: the days of yesteryear as well. That's right, and I 466 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: think it shouldn't be you know, minimized that you know, 467 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: while there certainly is almost definitely a medical explanation for 468 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: this stuff. You know, you've heard of the idea of 469 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: having a bad trip. It's all about like what your 470 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: belief system is and how being in an altered state 471 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: can really bring a lot of that stuff up to 472 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: the four And this was a time of great fear 473 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: of God and fear of retribution and fear of demonic 474 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: possession and evil spirits from the beyond. So it makes 475 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: sense that in terms of the zeitgeist, there would be 476 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: a collective kind of emphasis on these types of things. 477 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: You know, these ideas of rivers of blood and you know, 478 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: demons and deals. Yeah yeah, like okay, so we're talking 479 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: about expectations, right, we're talking about the psychology here. So 480 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: there's another interesting thing Waller finds. It's that a lot 481 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: of these outbreaks of the st venis dance. The current 482 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: towns that are close to cities that have already been 483 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: infected by this epidemic. Uh So they're aware of it. 484 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: They're thinking it's gonna happen. All it would take then 485 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: is a few people believing themselves to be subject to 486 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: the curse to slip into a trance. They start dancing, 487 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: someone else sees it, and then they might be driven 488 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: by fear. They might think, okay, I can get through 489 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: this by dancing. So maybe they fall out of the 490 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: transfer a second and they say, the only way to 491 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: lift the curses if I keep going. That's right. And 492 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: it it makes me think of what we were talking 493 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: about earlier, where in certain events of mass hysteria, sometimes 494 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: there were people that were mimicking folks that were maybe 495 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: not actually you know, afflicted, you know, because the power 496 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: of suggestion that you guys are, I mean, this is 497 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: dancing going on as we speak the power of suggestion 498 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: when paired with religious ideology that's like incredibly deep rooted, 499 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: is incredibly powerful and can cause people to do things 500 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: and to behave outside of their own best interests or 501 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: outside of things that they would you know, normally do. 502 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: Yeah a d And you know, you can see the 503 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: role of belief here when you look at the speed 504 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: at which the epidemics disappeared. When people took cultural actions 505 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: that seemed appropriate in this situation. So victims would pray 506 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 1: at certain shrines or the local clergy would give them 507 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 1: an exorcism ritual. We know about this because there are 508 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: some accounts from the mid to late fifteen hundreds of 509 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: cults of a bunch of entrance dancers in towns close 510 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: to the Black Forest, right where the Ryan enters the 511 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: North Sea. These people would deliberately enter a trance and 512 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: then they would dance, and they were fancy about it. 513 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: They danced with music, and they danced towards these shrines 514 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: to patron saints, to St. Fittis and St. John. And 515 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: this seemed like there was a way to reframe the 516 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: phenomenon here. This epidemic, whether it's psychological or physiological, this 517 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: epidemic has now been channeled into becoming a positive thing, 518 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: a religious ritual. Now we're dancing because we want to, 519 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: and it's in service of our belief system. Yeah, you 520 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: could leave your friends behind. And if your friends don't dance, 521 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: and if they don't dance, and then they're no friends 522 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: of mine and going to hell. I'm gonna just stay 523 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: at this. I got signed up to do that song 524 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: in karaoke when else in Chicago one time? Not friend 525 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: of mine? Not the easiest song to singing karaoke, especially 526 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: when you are quite in debraid like I was at 527 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: the time. Put me in the game, coach. Yeah, I'll 528 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: go in there with you. Uh oh, we got I 529 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: did dance a lot. There you go there. Point I 530 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: stopped saying. I just screamed dance. Both the Williams brothers 531 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: are dancing fools, that's for sure. By the mid sixteen hundreds, 532 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: it seemed that the the dancing plagues are in a 533 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: sharp decline. They disappear, and Waller ties this to uh 534 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: the decline of supernaturalism, right where the mid sixty hundreds 535 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: were entering a new era of thought, and by the 536 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: late sixteen hundreds, St. Vitus's dance it gets well appropriated. 537 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: That's the word Waller uses to describe a very different 538 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: medical condition. So really what we're learning, I think is 539 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: the power of belief, which can be as dangerous as 540 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: it is positive. No, I completely agree, And we we 541 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: teased a few other legs that you know, we're similar 542 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: to this early on. But we also have an incredible 543 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: list of other odd plagues that I honestly think we 544 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: should maybe just do another episode on weird plagues because 545 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: there's a ton of them out there, like things like 546 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 1: the Pokemon shock. That's the thing. Yes, finally, laughter epidemics. Uh, well, 547 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: we don't want to give you too many, too many spoilers, 548 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: because I think you're right. No, I think this is 549 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: its own episode. With this in mind, we are going 550 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: to call it a day. We're gonna put on our 551 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: own dancing shoes and go off to have some weird adventures. 552 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: I think, Nol, you and I might even briefly meet 553 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: for a second. Yeah, and uh, we're gonna hang out 554 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: because again, Max, Noel and I are friends in real life. 555 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: This is more than just a job to us, and 556 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: we consider you a friend as well. So we hope 557 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: that the next time you're dancing. It is consensual. You're happy, 558 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: you're not tripping, and you can stop whatever you want. Yeah, 559 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: tripping either physically, you know, over your feet or cognitively. Also, 560 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: before we end the episode, can I just say, let's dance, 561 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: put on your red shoes and dance the blues? How 562 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: does one dance the blues? I've always did the blues. 563 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: Doesn't really seem like much of a dancing, uh situation. 564 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong and you kind of not. You kind 565 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: of nod only you want to know how? Let's dance 566 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: to the song they're playing on the radio. Yeah, Well, 567 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: tremble like a flower, that's the They sort of describe 568 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: the dance in the song. Always a fan of a 569 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: song that describes how to do the dance that the 570 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: song is about. And uh, we are about here. We 571 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,959 Speaker 1: hope you're hafting. We hope you're having a great week. 572 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: We will be back either right after or right before 573 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: this with an exploration slash expose a on theod Food Pyramid, 574 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to Jonathan Strickland are own StatET Vetics. 575 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: They too, of course the magnificent work of John Waller. 576 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: Thanks to let's see he's Jeff cot Yeah, super producer 577 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: and research associate to Max Williams Alex Williams who composed 578 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: this theme, And thanks to you, Ben, We'll see you 579 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: next time, folks. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, 580 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 581 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.