1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and we're doing it today like we're brothers, 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: because this is stuff you should know. Okay, but we don't. 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: We don't make out. That's that was my point. I 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: was tell letting everyone know that we don't make out. Yeah. 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: I was hoping you were not going to ask me 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: where this idea came from, because I honestly can't remember. Oh. 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: I thought that's how you gonna say. You'd prefer not 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: to say. Now. I remember Livia helped us with this one, 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: and she did a great job of this is outstanding. 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: But I remember sending the email, but I don't remember 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: what happened just before I sent that email. Well, all 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: I remember is that that email was frantic and it 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: all caps with a lot of misspellings. I had gone 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: to lunch with my super for hot cousin. I don't 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: think that had anything to do with it. Oh, you 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: know Rhonda. Everybody knows Rhonda. Uh, there is no cousin Ronda. 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Just so everyone knows, that was a Josh joke. I 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: don't have many cousins, do you have a lot of cousins. 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: I don't know perfect. I was just kind of thinking 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: about this, and I just don't have many. My dad 23 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: had one brother and he had three sons, one of 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: whom passed away a few years ago. The other two 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm not close to or not even touch with. Actually, uh, 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: my mom's sister never had kids. Her brother uh never 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: had biological kids. But I'm actually closest to my cousin David, 28 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: who you met in our show in Kansas. David was adopted, 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: and I'm like tighter with him than anyone. And then 30 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: my mom's other brother has two daughters and a son 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: who seemed great. I just, you know, we're sort of 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: in touch when I was on Facebook, but we kind 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: of fell out of touch over years. But you know, 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: they're good people. Is that Rhonda's family? That's that's Rhonda. 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: But I'm not one of these families that has like, 36 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: you know, twentysothing cousins. Yeah. I seem to remember as 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: a child in Ohio having like a bunch of cousins, 38 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: but it's not clear as an adult, like if they 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: were like, you know, close friends of my mom's kids 40 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: or that kind of thing. I know, I have one 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: cousin who's like in the seventies. It's just all over 42 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: the place. It's a big mess. Basically, I'm not going 43 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: to marry any of them. I'm already married, and you 44 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: mean I are verified not cousins. Correct, But as we'll see, 45 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: it's not that big of a deal at least with cousins, 46 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: depending on where you are. Absolutely, and again I don't 47 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: remember what inspired this, but I looked into it a 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: little bit before sending it off to Libya and found 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: that generally speaking around the world through history and now, 50 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: marrying cousins and most of the world is fine. Yeah, 51 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: they're cool with it, they like it, and there's good 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: reasons too. But if we're talking about so that is um, 53 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: I actually saw a distinction here. So that is a 54 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: what would be called a co sanguineous marriage, second cousin 55 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: or closer. Yes, exactly, And that sanguine or um is 56 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: like blood right, So you're saying like it's a related 57 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: blood or blood relative marriage is essentially what that is. Um. Again, 58 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: it depends on just how close you're going there. People 59 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: can be cool with it, but there is a definite 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: stopping point almost around the world, in every culture and 61 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: not just the ones around today, but in throughout history 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: there's basically been a general taboo on you having sexual 63 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: relations with your nuclear family, that siblings, parents, um son's daughters, 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: all that stuff, that when you're when you're that close, 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: you just should not be touching improperly. As Hodgement would say, 66 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: hugging and kissing. Sure that to his uh he that's 67 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: his stand in for intercourse. I know it makes me 68 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: more uncomfortable than if he just said that's the thing 69 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: he says that is not his real life, you know, 70 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: application which as far as he will go, no one's 71 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: ever gotten past first base with Hodgem. Oh it's so 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: sad um. So Olivia did a pretty smart thing, I 73 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: think with this research and started out with animals, because 74 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: you would, you know, if you want to look at 75 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: our our primate friends and other mammals, it's kind of 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: a fun place to start. And generally speaking, uh, animals 77 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: also avoid interbreeding, and it depends on which species as 78 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: to how uh kind of hard line they are about 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: it and how much they try to avoid it, and 80 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: how much they try to avoid it seems to be 81 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: entirely based on because you know, they're not one to 82 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: say like, oh, that's gross, that's creepy. Uh. Some animals might, 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: but most don't. Um. But it's entirely based on what's 84 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: called inbreeding to pression basically like will it be bad 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: for our species if we do this? Yes? So um, 86 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, anthropologists said, well, you know, we're studying animals, 87 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: and animals show um sexual aversion to siblings or parents. 88 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: So if animals do it and humans are animals, Like, 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: does that just mean that all of these cultural taboos 90 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: around the world and throughout history are basically the human 91 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: version of innate sexual a virgin version, tendencies that any 92 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: animal would have. That it's just the kind of the 93 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: natural evolution of a this biological imperative to not reproduce 94 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: with our parents or siblings. But what have they found? Well, 95 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: I mean that's one very widely believed theory that that's 96 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: what it is. Um. Other people have said, well, I 97 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: think instead that what it is is humans are smart 98 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: enough to see that that there is a problem with 99 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, um inbreeding as well as we'll see later 100 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: on um that the offspring can have you know problem 101 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 1: him is that other offspring of non cosaguineus. Yeah, marriages 102 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: wouldn't have, So we just observed this over time and 103 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: made up these laws around it to make it taboo 104 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: for that reason. That's another theory, right, which I mean 105 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: one of the people that put this forth as a 106 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: gentleman named William Durham, And it seems like he's saying like, 107 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: otherwise we would be doing this, right, I guess, I 108 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: guess so maybe yeah, Okay, I don't want to put 109 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: words in his mouth, but it just seems like the 110 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: theory is basically that like, no, when it comes to humans, 111 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: there is no natural aversion, but we just uh sort 112 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: of invented this thing for good reasons. But yeah, but 113 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: based on observations of you know, we tried it at 114 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: first and it didn't really work out. So now we're 115 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: seeing like we need to make some sort of universal 116 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: law that can extend through the ages, you know, because 117 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: the taboo is a lot more than just a law. 118 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: It's like it's it's just it's a law. Plus you 119 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. There's like a there's a like 120 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: there's there's this guy named Jonathan Hate He he used 121 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: to be with you University of Virginia. I don't know 122 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: if he is still or not, but he was studying 123 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: moral intuition, and one of the ways that he studied 124 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: that is he would present um study participants with this 125 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: little scenario where I think it was Julie and Jack 126 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: maybe Um are brother and sister. They're traveling together in 127 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: the south of France there in a cabin one day 128 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: and they decided buckle up, buddy, Um. They decide just 129 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: to just to have a new experience that neither one 130 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: has ever had and probably never will have again, to 131 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: have sex, even though their blood brother and sister. Okay, 132 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: so he puts a spin on this. He says Julia 133 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: was on the pill Jack war condom. They both decided 134 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: that they wanted to see how interesting this would be 135 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: and that it wasn't going to harm anybody. There was 136 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: no chance of producing offspring. End, they kept this as 137 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: a secret to themselves. That actually brought them closer together 138 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: as brother and sister to have this shared secret they 139 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: never did again. Is that okay? And to a person, 140 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: people respond with no, that's not okay, And Jonathan Height 141 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: would say or Hate would say why not? And people couldn't. 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,239 Speaker 1: I couldn't put their finger on it. They just knew 143 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: it was because yeah, and There's been a lot of 144 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: questions about that. It's like, you know, what study group 145 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: are you talking about? What does that really show? But 146 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: it's a really kind of an interesting demonstration that total 147 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: we have this really distinct feeling basically across the board, 148 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: at least, you know, in most cultures, in most societies, 149 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: that that is wrong. There's something very wrong with it, 150 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: even if we can't overtly say what's wrong with it, 151 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: even if there are wine coolers involved. That's funny you 152 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: say that because I just saw a Seinfeld episode where 153 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: George tries to come on to his cousin, upset his parents, 154 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: and his cousin his drinking wine coolers in the back 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: of the band right before they're about to Wow. That's 156 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: really funny, totally weird, and it very much dates Seinfeld 157 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: and myself, I guess for sure. Uh, although all those 158 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: like new fangled alcoholic beverages, those are all just sort 159 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: of the new wine cooler, aren't they exactly? Yeah? All right, 160 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: so we should talk about the Western Mark effect. This 161 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: is pretty interesting, Um it is. There was a late 162 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: nineteenth century sociologist from Finland name Edward uh Vester Mark. 163 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: I guess I should have said the vest Mark effect, 164 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: And there was a hypothesis that makes a lot of 165 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: sense that basically said, two kids that are raised together 166 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: UH won't be sexually attracted to each other as they 167 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, when they get older. And then that was 168 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: expanded to that also includes like parents in the house 169 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: and studies to back this up, and then later it 170 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: was even expanded further to be like, you don't have 171 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: to even be related. If you were raised together, then 172 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: you're not going to be attracted to each other later, right, 173 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: And so that really supports the idea that our cultural 174 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: taboos against uh incest is a um, it's from a 175 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: biological imperative that there's some part of growing up and 176 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: reaching adolescents where some mechanism is triggered along the way 177 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: where it's like I don't I'm not attracted to you, 178 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: you're my sibling kind of thing. And there's plenty of 179 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: studies that back this up. Actually, um, there's I think 180 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: more often than not, the studies tend to back it up, 181 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: although there have been studies that kind of showed the opposite, 182 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: but there's so few and far between that it seems 183 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: like the Western Mark effect is possibly a real thing, 184 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: and it extends beyond blood relatives, so that um kids 185 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: who are raised together that might not even be blood 186 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: siblings but are raised in the same house or say 187 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: like on a Kibbitts. They found that it's it's also 188 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: apparent as well they will have that same Western mark 189 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: effect too, right, But they also found that it only 190 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: because I was going to make a joke about like 191 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Willis and Kimberly, but it wouldn't apply because it seems 192 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: to only be a thing if they were cohabitating before 193 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: they were six years old, which would not be the 194 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: case with Willison Kimberly, and they could they can fall 195 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: in love. Uh. There is also um this thing called well, 196 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: I don't even think it has a name actually, uh, 197 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: but just sort of like the backward version of the 198 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: investor mark effect, which is and I've heard I feel 199 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: like I've heard real life stories about this, unless it's 200 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: just been in TV shows and movies. Is when kind 201 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: of like separated at birth situations where they meet each 202 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: other later and have a very strong physical attraction to 203 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: one another, but then they find out their cousins and 204 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: or or maybe even siblings or first cousins, and then 205 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: it's like, ah, in the movie version. But then they 206 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: eventually find out that of course it was just a 207 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: big mistake and they are really in love and it's 208 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: okay they can hug and kiss finally, which let's say 209 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: the Royal Tannon bombs. But they were they were actually 210 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: raised together, so that kind of flies in the face 211 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,479 Speaker 1: of best Mark. I think they were actually Oh no, uh, 212 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: she was adopted. That's right. So there actually is a 213 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: term for this. It's called genetic sexual attraction. And it's 214 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: not just in movies, dude. There's this really interesting government handout. Uh, 215 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: you can go search the Cumbria c U m b 216 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: r I a city council genetic sexual Attraction. It'll bring 217 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: up a PDF that they give to people who have 218 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: been adopted who are going to reunite with family members 219 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: that says, hey, we really want to tell you about 220 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: this really strange experience that you might have where you 221 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: find you are powerfully attracted to your biological mom who 222 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: you're just meeting your biological sister or brother, and that, yes, 223 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: is very weird and it's going to make you feel weird. 224 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: But don't follow it through to its you know, seemingly 225 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: logical conclusion of having sex with him because you're going 226 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: to ruin your lives, You're gonna put a strain on 227 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: this new relationship. And it's not really you're not really 228 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: sexually attracted. We think, we think that it's just such 229 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: a powerful um like connection that you're sending that as 230 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: an adult, you accidentally mistranslated into a sexual attraction, because 231 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: that's the only thing it could possibly explain. It just 232 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: does not compute. But it's really really interesting and it 233 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: does seem to be a real thing that you have 234 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: to like taken into account when you reunite with a 235 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: biological family member. Where's Cumbria and why Cumbria? I'm just 236 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: killing that um it is in the UK. Okay, I'm 237 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: pretty sure doesn't matter. They've got a great hand out. No. 238 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: I just wondered if it was an especially problem, like 239 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: a problem there especially or doesn't it seem like, oh, 240 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: I see, yeah, definitely, maybe it is just a cumber 241 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: you a problem. I don't know. I got the impression 242 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: that it was, you know, genetic or biological. Well no, 243 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean that it happened there a lot. So they're like, 244 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: I guess we need a pamphlet now, right, it's a 245 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: it's a well done pamphlet too, or maybe they have 246 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: a I'll never mind. Um, I'm just gonna drop that one. 247 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: I think that's best. In fact, maybe we should just 248 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: take a break. I think that's best as what And 249 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna think about what I almost did. I don't know, 250 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: all right, So I guess if we want to that 251 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: was a pretty good setup. I think. I think if 252 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: we want to go back in time, it gets pretty 253 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: interesting because depending on where you are in the history 254 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: of humans and where you are on planet Earth, it's 255 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: sort of gone from people didn't really do it, some 256 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: people did, some people frowned upon it, or generally nobody 257 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: really frowned upon it for a little while. I guess 258 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: you could even almost classified as a fad in some cases. 259 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: But if you look at religion, certainly throughout time, they 260 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: are all kinds of um inter family sexual unions from 261 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: Zeus and Hera who were siblings all over Muslim and 262 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: Jewish and Christian traditions. Uh. You know, there's an explanation 263 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: do when Adam and Eve have cane and able and 264 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: then sort of look around at each other, go, well, 265 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: wait a minute, we're supposed to populate the earth, so Uh, 266 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: various religions have explained that away as there were also 267 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: twin daughters born and uh, that's how the earth was 268 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: originally populated. And maybe Cane even slew able because I 269 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: guess he got he got the hot one, right, I 270 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: want mith mithy. Yeah, it sounds like a money python 271 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: sketch or something like. It really does. There's this classic 272 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: princess beauty and then like and in fact, I think 273 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: that was a money python sketch. Probably I don't know 274 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: the one, but I'm guessing. Yeah. So, Um. The thing 275 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: is is that they they have found most historians tend 276 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: to agree that um, even though like deities or you know, um, 277 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: ancient figures in in religious texts were involved in incest, 278 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: that among common everyday people, they were not. It was 279 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: not a widespread phenomenon. It was almost relegated to the elite. Um. 280 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: And by almost, I mean it absolutely was. It's not 281 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: like if you were an elite family, you were definitely 282 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: engaged in incests no matter what culture or what historical 283 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: period you're in. But you are far more likely in 284 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: in history, um too, if you were an elite to 285 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: have an incestor's relationship than if you were just an 286 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: everyday schmo cutting stones to build a pyramid. Yeah, and 287 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the same as what we'll you know, 288 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: we'll talk about royals later on. It was a way 289 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: to keep it all in the family and then keep 290 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: that power consolidated. Uh. And we'll see evidence of economic 291 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 1: reasons for doing that as well as just sort of 292 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: being the elite ruling class. Uh. And in fact, in 293 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: some cases with the elite ruling class, they touted it 294 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: as like sort of like we're this special that we 295 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: are almost required to do this, I mean not just 296 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: above the law, above the taboos like that. Is. Yes, 297 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: they are definitely creating an elite status for themselves. And 298 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: it does like it's definitely been shown scientifically documented now 299 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: that all all of these kind of um folklore and 300 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: histories and religious texts are being proven, like two tongue 301 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: commons parents have been shown to have been brother and 302 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: sister um. Based on history, We're pretty sure Cleopatra married 303 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: both of her brothers at different times and that her 304 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: parents were probably brother and sister. So it definitely did happen. UM. 305 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: Just to what extent is is unclear, that's right. Uh, 306 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: And I think there was one exception as far as 307 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: the commoners go, and that was during the Roman Egyptian 308 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: period first the third century CE, where I guess that 309 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: might have been a fad thing because the census shows 310 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: that there were a lot of common people that were 311 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: in you know, sibling marriages basically, Yeah, but we don't 312 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: know what everybody thought of that. But if it was 313 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: that widespread, I guess people weren't that down on it, 314 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: you know, right. And then uh, in Iran or Persia 315 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: at the time Zoroastrian Persia from the fifth century b C. 316 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: To the eleventh century c E, they had something called 317 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: ex wadoda Um, which basically said, this is a really spiritual, 318 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: powerful ritual you can you can engage in on a 319 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: Friday and with your brother or sister and that they 320 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: said that you get a lot of power spiritually from 321 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: this act. And they think possibly it's because you you 322 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: were having to overcome you know, your aversion to incest 323 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: and supposedly gained some power from that. That's right. And 324 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily like a marriage, right, No, it was 325 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: like ritual sex sure, like Alistair Crowley style exactly in 326 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: the desert. Uh So that's generally like what we've kind 327 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: of been talking about is sibling stuff and how that's 328 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: gone through history. When it comes, like we said at 329 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: the beginning, when it comes to cousins, that's really a 330 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: different story even today in many parts of the world. Uh, cousins, 331 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: I mean not from the beginning of time. Because it 332 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: is interesting that they did studies of ancient people and 333 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: found d n A evidence And this is just last year. Uh, 334 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: from almost eighteen hundred ancient humans going back about forty 335 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: five thousand years or at least as far back is 336 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: that only three percent. It looked like we're even cousin marriage. 337 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: So it's something that gotten more popular after ancient humans, 338 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting. Yeah, they think it 339 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: started around the time that history did, which is usually 340 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: where we place, you know, a thousand or two years 341 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: after agriculture, and they think that it was a result 342 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: of agriculture of settling down. Um, that you would have 343 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: a much greater aversion to marrying your cousin in hunter 344 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: gatherer societies because there would be much less genetic diversity. 345 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: But when you take a bunch of different people and 346 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: pull them into the same place, yeah, they might be 347 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: related by marriage or you know, their cousins a couple 348 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: of times removed, but because of the increased genetic diversity, 349 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: there would be far less chance of there being some 350 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: sort of um, genetic mishap from the mating of those cousins. Yeah, 351 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: and I guess one thing we didn't point out is 352 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: that previous to this, when people were engaging in like 353 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: the elites and sibling marriage and things like that, they 354 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: generally avoided uh, genetic mishaps. Because as you'll see, it's 355 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: still pretty rare. We'll get to that later, but they 356 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: did things to discourage that kind of stuff. Uh, Like 357 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: some of the marriages were celibate and stuff like that, 358 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: and it was really all about consolidation of power and 359 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: not like all right, now we'll have twelve kids right 360 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: exactly with eight heads. Uh. This one step kind of 361 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: alarm me though, And this is of course just one 362 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: person's opinion. But there's an anthropologist at Rutger's named Robin 363 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: Fox who estimated that of all marriages in history may 364 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: have been second cousin or closer, which that seems really high. Yes, 365 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: but they make a really good case, and they say 366 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: that until we had segways and trains and stuff like that, you. 367 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: When you went courting, you probably didn't court much more 368 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: than about five miles away from home because you had 369 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: to walk there and back, usually in a day. Um, 370 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: So within that five mile d s you were much 371 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: more likely to encounter cousins. And so as a result, 372 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: the cousin marriage probably was like taking place at a 373 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: really high rate. I don't know where they came up with, 374 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: but it is a it's a pretty interesting hypothesis at least. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh. 375 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: And we're gonna jump around sort of all over the 376 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: world too to see what has happened in other cultures. 377 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: And China's one this pretty noteworthy. Uh, and that for 378 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: a lot of China's in fact, most of their history. Um, 379 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: if you were first cousins and you wanted to get married, 380 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: it was generally okay, unless they were they were the 381 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: kids of two male siblings, and they just reckoned because 382 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: you had the same family name. It was a little 383 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: too weird. Uh. They think they thought that, um, like 384 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: brothers with the same family name were kind of considered 385 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: more relatives than say a brother and a sister with 386 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: two different last names because this sister has been married off, 387 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: which is just not true. No, it's not, but I 388 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: mean it's a cultural thing, you know. Yeah, But this 389 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: also came about in the early eighties with the PRC 390 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: marriage law banning first cousin marriage, and it was about 391 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: birth defects, and it was it was the same time 392 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: as sort of there, I don't know what I mean, 393 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: do we call it eugenics. They said that they wanted 394 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: to improve quote the quality of the population. So yeah, 395 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: I'd say that's eugenics, okay, But it was in lockstep 396 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: with the one child policy, and that's basically when China 397 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: started getting like super in everyone's business as far as 398 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: the child rearing goes. But what's interesting is that's about 399 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: a hundred years after America started passing laws on that 400 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: kind of thing too. Yeah, that's true. So there's another Um. 401 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: There's a really cool hypothesis by a guy named Joseph 402 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: Heinrich who's an evolutionary biologist, and he traces UM a 403 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: really big change back to five five oh six CE 404 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: when the Catholic Church, UM, the people leading the church 405 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: basically said hey, you cannot marry anyone closer than your 406 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: third cousin from now on, which is interesting because we 407 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: we consider a co sanguineous relationship. Second cousins are closer, right, 408 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: So maybe that's where that comes from. But they are 409 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: not entirely certain where why they said that. But they 410 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: said that, and it was a big time rule, and 411 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: the Catholics started running the show around that time all 412 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 1: over Europe. So this applied to a lot of people. 413 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: And heinrich hypothesis is that that change that changed things 414 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: so much that it led to the modern world. Basically 415 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: right with the idea that, um, I guess the family 416 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: bonds took a hit. People were encouraged to be a 417 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: little more individual uh listic. I don't know why, I 418 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: put a big pause in the middle of that, and 419 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: basically trust other people, such that societies were able to 420 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: form because it wasn't like, well I only trust my family, 421 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, they started. It really came down to human 422 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: trust as far as branching out and and larger groups 423 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: of nonrelated people kind of getting along and trusting each other. Yeah, 424 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: because if you only trust and care for and take 425 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: care of your kin, you know, a kin network can 426 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: only be so large, so your society can only be 427 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: so large. But if you remove that kind of kin 428 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: network stuff, like by saying you need to marry outside 429 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: of your kin network, then you can't support a larger 430 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: and larger society too. And then they think also that 431 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: led to things like free market competition, that we might 432 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: not have had that or such an emphasis on that 433 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: kind of thing. But like you said, individualism that it 434 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: basically whatever we think of as the West today traces 435 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: its roots back to that, and all had to do 436 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: with not being able to marry members of your king group, 437 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: which is the opposite of the Josh Clark motto, which 438 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: is never trust family exactly. Another little sidebar here that 439 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting was the um Some people think 440 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: that the tradition at a wedding of saying if anyone 441 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: has any object should to the marriage is sort of 442 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: a evolution of the question does anybody know if these 443 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: two are related? Yeah? I thought that was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, 444 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: So Heinrich wrote a book if if you're like I 445 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: need to know more about this, it's called How the 446 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: West Became Weird? Weird as in Western educated, industrialized, rich, 447 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: and democratic, right, not Austin weird, No, But I think 448 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: he also says like kind of Austin weird too, you know. Okay, 449 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: so we talked about um. You know, when people think 450 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: of like like incests and royalties or even you know, 451 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: an intra family marriage. Um, like you, you tend to 452 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: think of things like the Habsburg jaw. And I know 453 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: we've talked about that before, but I don't remember. Do 454 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: we do like a short stuff on it or something. No, 455 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: I tried to think of it. I think I'm pretty 456 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: sure it was a video, one of our videos that 457 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: we did, because I remember flashing images of these humongous underbytes. Chuck. 458 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: I swear to you we've talked about last year. Really, yes, 459 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: I swear. And either that or my sense of time 460 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: has been so messed up in the last couple of 461 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: years that well, I'm just kidding. I'm just done, basically right. So, 462 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: the Habsburgs were royals who in bread so much that 463 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: they had, like you said, what was known as the 464 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: Habsburg jaw. Uh. And what I said, which was a 465 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: big time underbyte and like I have a bit of 466 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: a even bite, not quite an underbyte, uh. And I 467 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: have always been a little self conscious about it. But 468 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: when I saw the Habsburg jaws, I was not like, 469 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: nothing to worry about. Yeah, Charles. The Second of Spain 470 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: was described as quote swallowing all he eats whole for 471 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: his another jaw stands out so much that his two 472 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: rows of teeth cannot meet. Yeah, that's the Habsburg jaw 473 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: for you. I'm pretty sure you can chew your food right. No, no, no, 474 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm fine. I'm a little more Bruce Springsteen, not quite Habsburg. So. Um. 475 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: The much bigger problem that the Habsburg faces that their 476 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: children had to infant mortality rate of about eighteen percent, 477 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: which was high even at the time, But it was 478 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: specific for that family and what they were doing I 479 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: think you touched on it earlier was they were consolidating power. 480 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: They were making sure that some other family from some 481 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: other country didn't worm its way into the Habsburgs and 482 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: take over Germany or Saxony or Austria wherever the Habsburgs 483 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: were ruling, and they they just kept it in the family. 484 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: And so there were some problems genetically, but they were 485 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: far from the only family to to try this, and 486 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: some of the greatest economic dynasties that the world has 487 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: ever seen did the same thing for the same reasons too. Yeah. 488 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: The DuPont's Uh, Pierre Samuel DuPont Uh said in eighteen 489 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: ten quote the marriages that I should prefer for our 490 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: colony would be between the cousins, and that way we 491 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: should be sure of honesty of soul and purity of blood, 492 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: uh end quote. And that was you know, it's not 493 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: only about uh power, but I think keeping the money 494 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: in the family, being wary of strangers coming in because 495 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: they're rich, uh, that kind of thing. So I think 496 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 1: it was, at least how I read, it was a 497 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: little less like a eugenics pure bloodline thing and a 498 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: little more like we gotta keep our own. Yes, it 499 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: was the same thing for the Roth's Child, the Jewish 500 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: banking family um basically the exact same thing. And so 501 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: the du Ponts, which were founded I believe in France. 502 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: DuPont's first name was Pierre Samuel. Back in the Rothschild, 503 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: I know where. I believe in France. I know, I 504 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: believe they were from France, and the Habsburg's basically ruled 505 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: Europe for you know, quite a while centuries, I believe, 506 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: And so in Europe the idea of intra family marriages 507 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: and in breeding between close relations was kind of looked 508 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: at is like, if you were well to do, you 509 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: kind of did that thing. So there wasn't nearly in 510 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: as much an aversion to it as there was in 511 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: the United States, which is why the United States was 512 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: one of the first countries to really start passing laws 513 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: against marrying um close relations. Actually, yeah, eighteen seventy five 514 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: is when things started to kind of I think people 515 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: just started to not do it as much culturally in 516 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: the US. And then as far as laws on the books, Uh, 517 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: they even started a little bit before that. And what 518 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: was the very first state, Josh Kansas. Yeah, the Jayhawks 519 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: leading the way in incest laws don't do it in 520 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight, and by the mid nineteen twenties, most 521 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: of the states had laws on the books. Uh. Olivia 522 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: points out that if you were a Western state, you 523 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: were a little more likely to be ahead of the 524 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: curve because they were newer states and they were just 525 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: writing their laws for the first time, so they kind 526 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: of you know, had to go through everything, and this 527 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: was a time when they everyone in the country it's 528 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: just started looking at the laws around marriage is basically 529 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: in a health and safety manner and not so much 530 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: like we just want to be in your business thing, right, 531 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: And it's strange to think of today and especially as 532 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: an American. But apparently America has long had an outlier 533 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: preoccupation with um like close relatives marrying. Like elsewhere in 534 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: the world, as we'll see, it's not a thing, but 535 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: even in parts of Europe it's a it's a much 536 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: more modern aversion than it has been in America. Like, 537 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: I guess around the world, we're known as like we've 538 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: got a real problem with cousin marrying, like almost like 539 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: methinks they doth protest too much, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, 540 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: I know what you mean. Uh twenty five states in 541 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: the US today have banned first cousin marriage. Only half 542 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: uh seven more have some restrictions. And I think Arizona's 543 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: is fairly adorable because they allow it if you're at 544 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: least sixty five years old or older, or if you 545 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: can't reproduce. So I guess they're like, you know, I 546 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: guess you really couldn't find anyone else, or you really 547 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: really loved each other, just don't make any babies. That's 548 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: the that's the Arizona law. Yeah, absolutely so. And again 549 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: we're talking co sanguineous marriages. In most laws, that means 550 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: second cousins are closer. Um. And again around the world 551 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: this is not considered a problem that cousin marriages. Apparently 552 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: as much as ten percent of the global population practice 553 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: marriages a second cousins are closer, and then in some 554 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern provinces it's as high as eighty percent. Yeah, 555 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: and it's interesting when you look at this, uh I 556 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: guess it was a study. It was they were interviews 557 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: in uh Pakistan around this, and the reasons that these 558 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: women gave were they make a lot of sense. They 559 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: they said that a few different things, that they were 560 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: more compatible, not compatible, compatible with family than strangers, which 561 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: makes sense. Uh, that their in laws were kinder to 562 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: the brides if they were from the same family, and 563 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: that uh within if you had a guess a co 564 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: sanguineous marriage, you were less focused on physical appearance and 565 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: looks yeah, that's that was the um the Pakistani surveys 566 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: respondents like take on the whole thing that they just 567 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: didn't consider it like that. And then the other thing 568 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: is they were suspicious of people who wanted to marry 569 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: outside their family because in a society like that where 570 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: there was a lot of intra marriage or intra family marriages. UM, 571 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: it was a real red flag when somebody outside of 572 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: your family was like, hey, you want to marry me, 573 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: because it would say that their family found them unfit 574 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: to be married. So they've got real problems, right, So 575 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: so yeah, it would, it would you would just not 576 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: want to marry something like that and that in that sense. 577 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: Shall we take a break. Yeah, let's all right. We'll 578 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: talk about some more famous examples and then get to 579 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: the bottom of the health risks right after this, So Chuck, 580 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 1: before we get started again, I want to say something 581 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: because I came across UM the kind of a working 582 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: definition of incest is way different than the kind of 583 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: the general um way that we're using it. I've tried 584 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: to pepper this with you know, intra marriage or cos 585 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: anguineous marriage, but incess specifically, which most people just think 586 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: of as like sexual relations between very close family members, 587 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: is is supposedly defined as um like it's a dominant 588 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: version of that. It's it's an abusive version of that 589 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: where somebody in a position of power like an older 590 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: brother or an older sister or a father mother, um 591 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: basically molests like one of their family members. That it's 592 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: a very specific kind of sexual relations among family members 593 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: and probably the darkest of all the kinds. So that's 594 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: the true definition. That's what I saw. Oh interesting, Yeah, 595 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: I always thought that it could also mean consensual. Yeah, 596 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: I think that's what most people think. That's why I 597 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: wanted to share that, because that's what I thought too, 598 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: until you know, yesterday when I was running across it. 599 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: All right, thanks for clearing that up. You're welcome. Uh. 600 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the elephant in the room, which 601 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: is the health risks. Uh. That's sort of the the 602 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: unspoken thing people always think about in the back of 603 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: their head when they hear of like, oh, I have 604 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: family members that married each other and their third cousins, 605 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: And the very first thing probably pops into someone's head 606 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: is is like, is this going to be problematic when 607 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 1: they go to have kids? And as we will see, 608 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that it will. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, 609 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: my entire view of this thing has been completely upended 610 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: in the last two days because it depends on well 611 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: we'll get into it in a second. But when most 612 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: people think of like close relations marrying, you just think 613 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: of children born with abnormalities, birth effects, um possibly genetic 614 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: disorders and all that can happen. But the reason it 615 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: happens isn't because brother and sister, you know, head sex 616 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: and automatically God punished them. You know, that's not that's 617 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: not how it works. What it is is that brother 618 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: and the sister are much more likely to be carriers 619 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: of a certain recessive gene. And so when you put 620 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: those two together together and produce an offspring, that offspring 621 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: is almost certainly going to have that genetic disorder or 622 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: abnormality or whatever, and so that that that's just likelier 623 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: to happen. But even among um intra marriages or intra 624 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: family marriages, UM, that's a really rare outcome, to be honest. Yeah, 625 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean these genetic disorders that we're talking about, which 626 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: are everything from sickle cell anemia too, cerebral palsy uh, 627 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 1: I guess, cystic fibrosis. Some of these things they're rare 628 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: to begin with. So even if you're doubling up your chances, 629 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 1: it's it's not like it makes it likely. It's still 630 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: gonna be rare. And it's the case where like this 631 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: is the thing that reveals that recessive gene, you know, 632 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: because the brother and the sister don't have this disease. 633 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: That's why it's recessive. So they don't know this going in, 634 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they have a kid 635 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: that has this birth defect and they you know, they 636 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: maybe do genetic testing and it's unraveled. Right. So the 637 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: thing is that can happen to two nonrelated people too, 638 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: because there's so many obsessive genes out there in the 639 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: general population. But because there's so many and there's so 640 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: many people that the chances of two unrelated people is 641 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: much less. Like you said, it might be double for 642 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: people who are related, but still in absolute terms, it's 643 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: not that that much of a risk numbers wise. But 644 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: what you're saying is when you get to to non 645 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: like if you're not marrying a family member, you're actually 646 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: engaging in more of a genetic crap shoot then you are, 647 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: as a marrying a family member, because you could know 648 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: probably what's likelier to happen. Unless you've done, like you said, 649 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: genetic counseling, you have no idea how your genes are 650 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: going to match with somebody else's. Again, we have so 651 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: many genes, there's so many different possible mutations, and there's 652 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: so many people in the in the reproductive pool, that 653 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: the chances are just very low that it's going to 654 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: produce some sort of genetic disorder, abnormality or something like that. Yeah, 655 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: and I think historically it's been a lot more common 656 00:38:54,320 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: in uh, very small rural communities where the gene period 657 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: is just a lot smaller. Uh. And you know it's 658 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 1: just math. Basically, you're just going to be more at risk. Okay, 659 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: So I read this UM this study. I read the abstract. 660 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: I have to fess up, I didn't read the whole study, 661 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 1: but it was from the University of Natural Sciences, Lahore 662 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: in Pakistan, and they basically said, which, whether consanguineous or 663 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: non consanguineous marriage, which one is preferable, depends on which 664 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: level you're looking on on the individual level or on 665 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: the population level. And then on a population level. And 666 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: this is stone cold eugenic speak, right, So I just 667 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 1: want to preface it with that, But on a population level, 668 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: you're actually better off having your population mary relatives because UM, 669 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: there will be a huge upsurge initially in children who 670 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: are born with UM, you know, genetic disorders, who might 671 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: not survive infancy and who won't go on to reproduce 672 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: the ones who do survive and go on to reproduce 673 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: will actually be potentially genetically fitter because they're good alleles, 674 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: they're good genes mixed with their sisters good genes, and 675 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: they're producing offsprings with like super genes. Basically, so on 676 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: a population level, it's great. On an individual level, it's 677 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: not so great. Interesting, And so they concluded overall, on 678 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: for populations, until we learned to treat genetic disorders, like 679 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: through gene therapy or something like that, we should really 680 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: just keep out lawing co sanguineous marriages. Right, Wow, when 681 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: was that it was a recent paper? I'm not executive. 682 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: It was in the last ten years for sure. Uh well, 683 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: should we finish up with just some bulleted points and factoids? 684 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: That's how we do well. I guess we could talk 685 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: about some famous people who very famously married very close relatives. 686 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: Edgar Edgar Allan Poe did so in eighteen thirty five. 687 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: He married I believe a first cousin named Virginia Eliza 688 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: Klem and apparently the outrage there was the fact that 689 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: she was thirteen and he was twenty seven. So even 690 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirty five that was a pretty uh a 691 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: pretty big age gap, and I guess people were creeped out, 692 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: and I guess pose walking around super creepy anyway, he 693 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: was like that people out further, Yeah, exactly, Jesse James 694 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: married his first cousin in eighteen seventy four, which again 695 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: it's right on the precipice of when when America started 696 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: to be like, we're not cool with cousin marrying anymore. 697 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right there, and H G. Wells, Yeah, 698 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: and then Einstein. I didn't know he married his cousin, 699 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: did you. I did not know that married his cousin, 700 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: Elsa uh in nineteen nineteen, and I think both of 701 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: them it was their second time around marriage wise, and uh, 702 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it went went so well. 703 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: I think he wasn't a great husband apparently. Yeah, so 704 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: Olivia found it all. That's an interesting article. That's really 705 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: depressing and disturbing because I had no idea, but Einstein 706 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: seems to have been a really terrible husband, like cruel 707 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: even you could say, yeah, yeah, so if you really 708 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: want to just keep liking Einstein and only think of 709 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: him like that poster with his tongue sticking out, not 710 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: read that all that is interesting article on or a 711 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: lovable shaggy Tim Robbins. Yeah, what was that from? Oh 712 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: he was in the movie Meg Ryan played his daughter. No, 713 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 1: that was Walter math Out that played Einstein. She got together. 714 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: She got together with Tim Robbins. That's right. Robins got 715 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: another good twenty years before he starts playing Einstein. Yeah, 716 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 1: or Meg Ryan's dad. And I was way confused. Bath 717 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: Ow he was a great See the Couch Trip with 718 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: Dan Ackroyd. I'm sure I have a big Walter Bathou fan. 719 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: That was a wonderful movie. And I think that might 720 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: be one of his better performances too. Yeah, he was amazing. 721 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: What what can we go over here? Some other sort 722 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 1: of taboos are in the world. These are interesting, I think. Yeah, 723 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: I agree. So, um, different cultures have kind of come 724 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: up with like taboo plus like really complex stuff to 725 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: basically say, Okay, you can marry this person, you can't 726 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: marry that that person. It goes beyond just you can't 727 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: marry your second cousin or closer and um. One of 728 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: the one of the ways that the Muslim religion has 729 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: done this is to come up with something called a 730 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: milk kinship, where if you breastfeed a child who's unrelated 731 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: to you at least three to five times. Then you 732 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: and that child are considered mah ram, which means you 733 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: are you cannot marry right, even though you're not a 734 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: blood relative, you might not have any blood shared between 735 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: you because you breastfed, you can't marry that that person, right, 736 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: which seems like duh, because you're raising this you know, 737 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: kid from a baby. But I don't think we mentioned 738 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: at the beginning. There have been cultures through history where 739 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: it was a common practice to a opped and raise 740 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: a baby and also marry them, like you marry the 741 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: baby and then raise them up to adulthood. Baby bride, 742 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: baby bride. It's it's it's very hard to wrap your 743 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: head around or baby groom. I saw in in at 744 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: least one culture. Yeah. Um again, it's it's hard to 745 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: wrap your head around here in two. But that's something 746 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: that happened. So this was a big deal in the 747 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 1: Muslim culture because you don't have to wear uh he 748 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: job if you are mah ram. So it's sort of 749 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,439 Speaker 1: a work around when you raise this adopted baby. Uh 750 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, when they get old enough, you 751 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: don't have to wear that he job around them anymore, 752 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: right because you're maram, which is kind of fun to say. 753 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: It is um. And then there's something called the lever 754 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 1: marriage I had. I think it has to do with 755 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: Levi from the Bible, Old Testament stuff, but basically it's 756 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: a law that is found in a bunch of different 757 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: disparate cultures that says if you you are married to 758 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: a man and that and your husband dies, your brother 759 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: in law has to marry you. And it was it 760 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: seems to have been away um not to you know, 761 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: marry off an unmarriable brother, a brother in law, I 762 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 1: should say, um, but instead to take care of women. 763 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: From what I can tell, Yeah, I feel like I've 764 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: seen this not as a requirement, but it's just a 765 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: plot line in like Old West movies, like the husband 766 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: dies and so the widow marries is you know, the 767 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: brother comes into town for the funeral and then they 768 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 1: fall in love or something. Tim Robbins, I don't think 769 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: so he had really shaggy hair. I know I've seen 770 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: that before. But as far as the required the Old 771 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: Testament version, uh, there was a stipulation where if the 772 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 1: brother in law said no thanks, uh, then the widow. 773 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: I guess an offense takes off his sandals and then 774 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: spits in his face, and then his bloodline is forever 775 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: known as the family of the Unsandaled, which I guess 776 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: you would not want to be known as that. I 777 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: also saw. So there's a um culture called the chuck 778 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: Chi from eastern Siberia and they practice leverette marriage UM, 779 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: where you know, if your if your husband dies, you 780 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: marry his brother. And this is a way of taking 781 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: care of women in a place that's like really unforgiving 782 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: climate wise. UM. And they actually have a backup to that. 783 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: They have wife swapping, where very close friends will create 784 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,359 Speaker 1: a pact and they will share their wives and then 785 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,320 Speaker 1: all of the children born are all that groups you know, responsibility. 786 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: There's not like a delineation, and that supports women whose 787 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: husbands don't have a brother. So if their husband dies, 788 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: they're still taking care of by this other husband and 789 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: his wife and their family. Interesting. Yeah, it's pretty smart. 790 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: I always think of raising Arizona whenever hear the two 791 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: words wife swap. It's impossible not to. You know, me 792 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: and Dottie are swingers. You got anything else? I got 793 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: an nothing else? I don't either, which means this is 794 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: the end of our marrying cousin episode. Since I talked 795 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: about marrying cousins one last time, that means it's time 796 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: for listener mail. I'm gonna call this adoption language. And 797 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: this is something that UH made me feel bad in 798 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: a good way, if that makes sense. It's something I'm 799 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: never considered as a as a dad who has an 800 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: adopted kid, and I'm really glad that Frank opened my 801 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: eyes to this. Hey, guys, my wife Katie and I 802 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: were listening to the Roe v. Waight episode and we 803 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,720 Speaker 1: have a minor tangential note. We notice that you used 804 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: the phrase gave up when referencing adoption a few times. 805 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: I gave up their baby for adoption, which is U. 806 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's a very common thing people say, like 807 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: I say it all the time too. My wife is 808 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: a social worker for an adoption agency in the Chicago area, 809 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: and I learned from her that the phrase is really 810 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: frowned upon in the adoption community as it can have 811 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: a negative connotation of quitting on a child when that 812 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: is not the case, and they encourage people to say 813 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: instead that the mother made an adoption plan for the baby. UH. 814 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: In fact our agency at a campaign a few years 815 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: ago called to give up giving Up. Uh. I never 816 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: thought twice about it until I learned about it from 817 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: my wife, And I think it'd be great for your 818 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: listeners to know. And that is from Frank and Frank. 819 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,359 Speaker 1: I'm very glad you let me know this because this 820 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: is something that we've even said in our house, and 821 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 1: we have tidied that up because when I think about it, 822 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,359 Speaker 1: that is not the right thing to say. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 823 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,359 Speaker 1: you could see reflecting on the child, especially when they 824 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: get old enough to start thinking in those terms, but 825 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: also on the the parents who who adopted off their child, 826 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, like like they did something shameful or something 827 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, absolutely, Frank. So I think it's one 828 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 1: of the situations where it's just sort of the way 829 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: it's always been said. And I love it when people 830 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: point out like, no, there's a better way forward. Yeah, 831 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: like when that dude told us to stop using dark Ages, 832 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: that's same thing. Yeah, if you want to get in 833 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: touch with us, like Frank or the Dark Ages dude, 834 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: you can send us an email, wrap it up, spank 835 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 1: it on the bottom, unless it's a second cousin or 836 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: closer and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeart 837 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 838 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 839 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 840 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,280 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.