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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the right has figured out if a

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Speaker 1: lot of the problems it is most concerned about are

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Speaker 1: even amenable to policy solutions in the first place. The

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Speaker 1: reason jd. Vance was so good in that debate is

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Speaker 1: he didn't sound like Jadavance at all. You go watch

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Speaker 1: him in all these podcast interviews and speeches and not

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Speaker 1: con conferences and whatever that he was doing on his

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Speaker 1: rise up, and he sounds like one guy, and then

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Speaker 1: when he needs to try to win over the general public,

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Speaker 1: he sounds totally different. This is where you see a real,

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Speaker 1: a real political problem. When the things you're actually saying

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Speaker 1: and the things you then need to say in public

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Speaker 1: develop that level of divergence from each other, then you

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Speaker 1: have an unresolved problem. Within not just your political coalition,

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Speaker 1: but your political thinking, because you're not going to be

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Speaker 1: able to do it if you can't even really talk

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 3: You and I were both rattling the cages for some

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Speaker 3: type of an open process to nominate a replacement for Biden,

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Speaker 3: if he could be persuaded to drop out. Were we right?

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Speaker 3: On today's long form episode of Counterpoints, part of a

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Speaker 3: series that we're doing with independent journalists and also mainstream journalists.

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Speaker 3: Today we're joined by an independent slash mainstream one, Ezra

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Speaker 3: Kleine from The New York Times. Ezra, some people called

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Speaker 3: you the breakout star of the twenty twenty four election,

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Speaker 3: But when I saw it, I was like, wasn't as

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Speaker 3: there already? Kind of I think everybody kind of already

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Speaker 3: knew whoever it was. I don't think he needed the.

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Speaker 1: Twenty I just got here. I'm having a great rookie year.

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Speaker 1: It's been a thrill, amazing first year.

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Speaker 3: But thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: Emily is joining us from a reporting trip she's doing

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Speaker 3: over in Rome. May not be able to stick around

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Speaker 3: for the entire episode. Hopeful she can obviously for people.

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Speaker 1: Who don't know brutal I stayed for my whole episode

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Speaker 1: with Emily, but.

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Speaker 4: Emily as soon as there's a hard conversation.

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Speaker 3: So Emily, why don't you why don't you kick it

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Speaker 3: off since you said you might have to go, but

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Speaker 3: hopefully you can stick around for the for the whole thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, this all kind of came about

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Speaker 4: because as I was super kind and hosted me on

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Speaker 4: his extremely popular podcast, and we've talked a little bit

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Speaker 4: about the trend of postliberalism on the right part of

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Speaker 4: what I'm actually sort of here to think about in realm,

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Speaker 4: but Ezra, one of the things Ryan and I thought

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Speaker 4: might be interesting. A good place to start would be

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Speaker 4: some of our younger viewers and maybe even your younger

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Speaker 4: listeners might not know your origin story in journalism and

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Speaker 4: how tethered it is to the story of technology and

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Speaker 4: journalism in and of itself, and we kind of wanted

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Speaker 4: to ask you about what feels like a horseshoem of

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Speaker 4: almost a horse shoe moment from the blogging of the

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Speaker 4: Oughts to substack of today, and how independent thinkers, even

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Speaker 4: people who have found very mainstream platforms are adapting to

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Speaker 4: that environment with new technology and new delivery systems, and

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Speaker 4: how all of that is just shaking up basically the

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Speaker 4: industry for everyone. So I don't know if you have

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Speaker 4: any thoughts on whether the substack era, the substack moment

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Speaker 4: that we're in now the kind of journalism. Maybe are

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Speaker 4: we returning to what happened when the Internet first started

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Speaker 4: to change journalism in some sense?

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I'm so much more interested in who you're

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Speaker 1: meeting in Rome than I am with my I want

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Speaker 1: to know about the Rome Post liberals. But okay, substack

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Speaker 1: and blogging. I came, I came into journalism. I didn't

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Speaker 1: intend to be a journalist, had no intention of getting

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Speaker 1: into getting into media, no even thought of getting into media.

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Speaker 1: I was just a blogger back when Bogin was young

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Speaker 1: and was not seen as a way you would do

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Speaker 1: anything right. People now like blog is a normal word,

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Speaker 1: but it's a strange word, and people looked at you

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Speaker 1: strangely when you said it. So I was like two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three when I began my first blog back

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Speaker 1: in my dorm room at UC Santa Cruz. There's a line,

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Speaker 1: it's not my line, that the media only does two things.

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Speaker 1: It bundles and it unbundles, and you're just always either

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Speaker 1: in a cycle of bundling or a cycle of unbundling.

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Speaker 1: The blogging era was a cycle of unbundling. Previously, in

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Speaker 1: order really to have an audience, in order to reach

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Speaker 1: many people, you had to be at a publication. You

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Speaker 1: had to be at some kind of bundle, a magazine,

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Speaker 1: a newspaper, television network, cable news network. And then the

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Speaker 1: rise of the Internet in many different ways, blogging being

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Speaker 1: only one of them, made it possible to do that independently.

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Speaker 1: You could have you know, ezra cliin dot blog spot

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Speaker 1: or dot typead. But soon after that you also had YouTube.

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Speaker 1: You had a rise of all kinds of you know,

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Speaker 1: Twitter was part of this Facebook, right, you have Instagram, pundits,

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Speaker 1: all that is possible. You then went into a period

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Speaker 1: of rebundling, and so a lot of the bloggers got

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Speaker 1: snapped up by different kinds of first very small publications.

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Speaker 1: I went to the American Prospect, and then overtime bigger

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Speaker 1: publications in my own career, the Washington Post. Then there

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Speaker 1: was another period where people who were making a name

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Speaker 1: inside these bigger publications, people like me and Nate Silver

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Speaker 1: and many others. Matt Iglesias would then, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of Ben Smith leave and build our own outlets. Right,

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Speaker 1: This was a sort of a mixt of unbundling and rebundling.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that easy to do it on your own.

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Speaker 1: At that point, blogging had sort of died. The blogsphere

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Speaker 1: had been eaten away by Twitter, by Facebook, and again

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Speaker 1: by the big players. But you had the rise of

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Speaker 1: things like Vox, BuzzFeed News under Ben Smith. You know,

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Speaker 1: five point thirty eight. You can name somebody's on the right,

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Speaker 1: like the free bacon, free Beacon, Weather and free bacon.

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Speaker 4: There's no such thing as free bacon.

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Speaker 1: That was an old there was an old joke that

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Speaker 1: somehow came to mind there. First you also had on

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Speaker 1: the right, the Federalist right under Ben Dominic and folks

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Speaker 1: like that, where I think you worked, Emily. And then

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Speaker 1: we sort of went back into the first cycle as

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Speaker 1: a lot of the money funding digital media dried up

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Speaker 1: as interest rates went up. A lot of these organizations

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Speaker 1: are still around. Box is still there, Federals are still there.

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Speaker 1: But but it it that that sort of idea that

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Speaker 1: they would become the next generation of major incumbents I

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Speaker 1: think didn't quite pan out the way a lot of

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Speaker 1: us hoped, and substack ros and that created I think

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Speaker 1: another moment of unbundling. So you had a lot of

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Speaker 1: these same people, including iglaciers, including Silver, including Ben Dominic,

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Speaker 1: go to substack where they could do something you couldn't

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Speaker 1: do in the blogosphere, which was monetize your audience. So

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Speaker 1: the blogs here is very good at creating traffic, very

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Speaker 1: good at creating interlinks between communities. You know, there's an

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Speaker 1: amazing link economy. It was a very generous ecosystem of media.

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Speaker 1: People would talk to each other, It was very easy

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Speaker 1: to follow arguments across different places. It really was I

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Speaker 1: think an ecosystem. Substack is not an ecosystem in that way,

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Speaker 1: but it does allow you to make a living the

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Speaker 1: thing that I think you see happening now, though I

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Speaker 1: don't think substack is really panning out except for a

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Speaker 1: small number of people independently. It is very hard for

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Speaker 1: me to come up with many substacks begun in the

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Speaker 1: last year that seemed to me to have developed, at

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Speaker 1: least in the news and politics space, a particularly significant audience.

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Speaker 1: You are seeing substack emerge now as a platform on

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Speaker 1: which to create new bundles, with probably the Free Press

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Speaker 1: under Berry Weiss and the Dispatch under Sam Stein being

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Speaker 1: the best examples of that. But you know, you also

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Speaker 1: see it with work. You know, there's like obviously a

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Speaker 1: new Ryan Grimm site, and YouTube is of course a

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Speaker 1: big player here too. So now I think you're seeing

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Speaker 1: a turn to some of these you know, mid level

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Speaker 1: this sort of like the media middle that got somewhat

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Speaker 1: decimated by the rise of interest rates in the collapse

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Speaker 1: of media venture capital trying to find a way again.

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Speaker 1: As it turns out that the independent path is pretty

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Speaker 1: tough on sub stacks, specifically because once people subscribe to

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Speaker 1: a bunch of them, they stop wanting to subscribe to more.

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Speaker 1: The subscriptions are expensive. I think it's a distribution channel

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Speaker 1: that max is out at a pretty low level, unlike

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Speaker 1: the original blogosphere, where it was sort of costless to

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Speaker 1: keep like surfing over to new sites. So that's where

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Speaker 1: I think we are at the moment. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in one of the endless turns of this endless media recursion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there was a period if.

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Speaker 4: You don't mind, well, I was just say I have

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Speaker 4: a quick follow up is there and maybe Ryan, this

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Speaker 4: goes well with what you were going to ask, so

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Speaker 4: maybe you just tag it on to the end of this.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if they're a cynical person might say this

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Speaker 4: is just like Dylan going electric. This is you know,

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Speaker 4: the it's not that the mainstream media has become more

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Speaker 4: tolerant sort of independent voices. It's that the independent voices

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Speaker 4: have found their way into the mainstream because you know,

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Speaker 4: there might be like a Chomsky criticism, like they've become

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Speaker 4: part of the machine. And I don't think that's quite right.

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Speaker 4: And Ryan, do you I mean, do you have a okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: what do you make of that? Azrael? Like, just in

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Speaker 4: terms of the content of what's expressed when you go

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Speaker 4: from one platform to another, because my perspective actually is

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Speaker 4: that it probably has become the mainstream has seen in

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Speaker 4: the market there's an interest in these different opinions and

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Speaker 4: ideas from outside, you know, their usual gates, and brought

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Speaker 4: those voices in because they know they can market them,

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Speaker 4: they know there's an appetite for them. But I'm curious

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Speaker 4: what you make of that.

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Speaker 1: This just doesn't strike me as as a new phenomena.

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Speaker 1: The major institutions are always looking around to try to

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Speaker 1: see who is gaining audience, what is resonating with their audiences,

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Speaker 1: and in what way so it can become part of

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Speaker 1: their product. That's capitalism at its finest. It happens in music,

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Speaker 1: it happens in movies, it happens in television, it happens

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Speaker 1: in media, right. I mean my own story in journalism

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Speaker 1: is part of that. I think there was a moment

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Speaker 1: of substack explosion when there were particular ideological fights that

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Speaker 1: were blowing up media organizations, right. And I think this

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Speaker 1: is a period where you see things like Andrew Sullivan

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Speaker 1: go into substack from New York Magazine. That moment is

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Speaker 1: not that true, right, It's not how these organizations currently

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Speaker 1: feel from the inside. It doesn't feel like the ideological

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Speaker 1: strictures lay down, at least in exactly that way. And

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Speaker 1: so at this juncture, I don't particularly find substack offering

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Speaker 1: me a hugely different ideological set of perspectives, and I

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Speaker 1: can get elsewhere, and often I can get them else

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Speaker 1: with better editing. As an example, right in the thing

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Speaker 1: that you were on my show to talk about, Emily.

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Speaker 1: I follow the post liberals, but I follow them mostly

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Speaker 1: through journals and I follow them in their writing places

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Speaker 1: like The New Statesman, and I do follow the substacks,

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Speaker 1: but I find a lot of the substacks to be

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Speaker 1: tiresome to follow and not the best expression of those

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Speaker 1: ideas over time. And so you know. But but First

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Speaker 1: Things can be a very useful magazine, I think, to

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Speaker 1: read in a regular way, the clear amount you know,

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Speaker 1: review of books is an interesting journal to read right now.

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Speaker 1: So I don't find this to be a particularly new phenomena.

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Speaker 1: There's always a bit of a lag between what is

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Speaker 1: finding new audience in the more independent sphere and what

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Speaker 1: is finding its way into mainstream institutions. But I typically

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Speaker 1: view that as a as much more of a lag

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Speaker 1: as places you know, come to to understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: what you could really call, in a sentic way, the

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Speaker 1: market signals, rather than typically a chomp sky and manufactured

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Speaker 1: consent approach or or a model or a you know,

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Speaker 1: some kind of model of the constantly acused censorship.

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Speaker 3: And through through through all those different gigs that you

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Speaker 3: mentioned that you've gone through. At each step you somebody

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Speaker 3: watching from the background, or maybe even let's say you

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Speaker 3: as like a college student would say, oh wow, I've

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Speaker 3: made it. This is the place where I need to be,

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Speaker 3: and now I can just do my work, Like even

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Speaker 3: at the very beginning of getting you know, the Washington Post,

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Speaker 3: when when we were growing up in the eighties nineties,

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Speaker 3: like being a Washington Post columnist was like the pinnacle

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Speaker 3: of opinion writing, journalistic success that was equivalent to the

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Speaker 3: New York Times. People might find that shocking now, like

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Speaker 3: nobody ever really talks about the Washington Post opinion section

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Speaker 3: the way they do New York Times anymore. But yet

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Speaker 3: after several years of that, you moved on then started Vox,

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Speaker 3: very you know, extremely successful, you know, independent online news organization,

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Speaker 3: which maybe you could say, well now now we made it. Now,

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Speaker 3: now this is what I'm going to do, and then

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Speaker 3: you moved on again. So are you restless? Did you just? Like,

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Speaker 3: what was the thing that was moving you from place

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Speaker 3: to place?

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Speaker 1: I don't think I'm restless, at least I don't feel it.

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Speaker 1: But I feel it is tired. What I feel is

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Speaker 1: profoundly tired all the time. When I went from the

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Speaker 1: Post to Vox, I believed, and in some ways this

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Speaker 1: was born out. In some ways it wouldn't. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: that we could use the growing tools of digital media

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Speaker 1: to do new things in the news. What you know,

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Speaker 1: I always say I fundamentally left the Washington Post for

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Speaker 1: a different content management system, and we wanted to build

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Speaker 1: this explanatory layer underneath the work. This constantly updated. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you really think of what you can do online

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Speaker 1: that you can't do in print, in text, and most

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Speaker 1: of the early phase of online journalism was simply moving

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Speaker 1: what you did in print into a computer, the opportunities

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Speaker 1: are remarkable, right. It's still to me the untapped opportunity

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Speaker 1: of you can update a webpage and as such, a

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Speaker 1: single story can change and grow over time. Sometimes people

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Speaker 1: look at that as some way of pulling one over

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Speaker 1: on the audience, but that's because we've given the audience

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Speaker 1: expectations from a different era, right.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: One of our big views at Box was what if

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Speaker 1: we could have this story that is a fundamental part

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Speaker 1: of a story, right, not the new piece of news,

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Speaker 1: but the context for all those new pieces of news.

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Speaker 1: What if we had that growing and changing we call

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Speaker 1: those card stacks. What really made that hard? And I

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Speaker 1: mean there were certain workflow issues that we're just really

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Speaker 1: really difficult about keeping up that many of them when

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Speaker 1: you were a small organization. I think you needed to

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Speaker 1: be something the size of The New York Times to

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Speaker 1: really make that work. But the other was that there was,

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Speaker 1: at least for a period, a real split into the platforms,

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Speaker 1: and there was this phase driven by traffic on Facebook

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Speaker 1: and traffic elsewhere where we weren't just publishing. And this

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Speaker 1: is true for Box, but also true for The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, for the Washington Post, for everybody. You weren't

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Speaker 1: just publishing to your site. You were publishing to Facebook

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Speaker 1: incident articles, you were publishing to Google Amp, you were

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Speaker 1: publishing into Apple News, you're publishing onto Snapchat in a

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Speaker 1: very different way. And in publishing it to all these

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Speaker 1: different places, you no longer control over the underlying system.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of that burst of enthusiasm for what

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Speaker 1: you could build and how you can make it different

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Speaker 1: by taking advantage of your ability to code the underlying

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Speaker 1: content management and code and recode the website and change

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Speaker 1: what was possible that just didn't pan out. A lot

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Speaker 1: of other things did pan out, And I'm super proud

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Speaker 1: of a lot of things that we did when I

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Speaker 1: was at Vox, and a lot of things that the

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Speaker 1: Box is doing now. I mean it was built to

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Speaker 1: be a organization focused on contextual journalism or explanatory journalism,

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Speaker 1: and I think that ended up not just both being

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Speaker 1: good for it, but good for the broader media, where

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that we pioneered have been absorbed

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Speaker 1: at a pretty deep level and are now commonplace. But

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Speaker 1: the reason I personally left was in and it was

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Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of restlessness but exhaustion. Managing a

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Speaker 1: startup for seven or eight years is really hard, and

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Speaker 1: I was editor in chief for about half of that

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Speaker 1: and then editor at large. But when you're one of

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Speaker 1: the founders of something, you're sort of always a key

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Speaker 1: manager of it when you're there, and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be able to focus back on my own work just

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Speaker 1: as a person and not really be a manager of

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Speaker 1: an organization that at that point was one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty people, And in order to both do that for

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Speaker 1: myself and also to create space for the people who

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Speaker 1: would be managing vox to really have full freedom right

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Speaker 1: not have people constantly coming to me and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is really you know, how we

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Speaker 1: started out, or should we really be doing this, or

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Speaker 1: we'd love to have you in this meeting or what

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Speaker 1: do you think about this? At some point it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to manage around a founder, you know, when the

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Speaker 1: founder is sitting there and still doing a bunch of

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Speaker 1: the an immediate organization, the journalism, so both. So I

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Speaker 1: could no longer be a manager and the managers could

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Speaker 1: truly be the managers. It was time for me to

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Speaker 1: move on.

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Speaker 3: Interesting piece of Internet history. In the earlier part of

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Speaker 3: what you said that I think people who are newer

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Speaker 3: to this, you know, need to understand part of it.

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Speaker 3: You talked about the early link economy, with the with

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Speaker 3: the Bloggi sphere, and the difference with substact being that

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Speaker 3: you can actually make make a living. There was a

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Speaker 3: period of time maybe you weren't making a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: but where you could act. There were actually bloggers who

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Speaker 3: were making money from ads, uh and kind of overnight

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Speaker 3: and you might even remember this the Google ad Sense

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Speaker 3: apocalypse or whatever the bloggers at the time called it.

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Speaker 3: Google basically just said, no, what, we're actually not doing

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Speaker 3: that anymore. We've decided we're going to We're going to

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Speaker 3: keep the money now. And because everything was at that

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Speaker 3: point monopolized by Google, they could they could simply just

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Speaker 3: do that, and then we witnessed, you know it kind

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Speaker 3: of a parasitic takeover of of digital media organization revenue

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Speaker 3: years later, in the exact way that you've talked about,

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Speaker 3: where the platforms successfully persuaded individually all of these different

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Speaker 3: news organizations, some of them to quote unquote pivot to video,

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Speaker 3: which was its own criminal debacle, I believe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, who wants to watch video?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Well, so the pivot to video, if people

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Speaker 3: don't remember this was this was driven by Facebook, which

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Speaker 3: spent enormous amounts of money giving it directly to news organizations,

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Speaker 3: basically funding their journalism to pivot to creating these online

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Speaker 3: these online videos that they would put on Facebook, and

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Speaker 3: then Facebook, we now know because a lot of the

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Speaker 3: records are now public, was completely lying about the views

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Speaker 3: that they were getting. I remember one of the first

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Speaker 3: ones I did over at Hugh Post. They said it

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Speaker 3: got like one hundred and fifty thousand live viewers.

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Speaker 4: Is this top Post Live?

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Speaker 3: No, this is this is pre huff Post It Actually,

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Speaker 3: I think it helped kill huff Post Live and that

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Speaker 3: what it did is that killed a lot of organic

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Speaker 3: ideas that journalists had, like yourself over at fox hof

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Speaker 3: Post Live, for instance, trying to build an actual, like

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Speaker 3: native live video audience and pushed it into this Facebook

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Speaker 3: video operation. And then Facebook got tired of that a

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Speaker 3: couple of years later. But by that point they had

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Speaker 3: gobbled up all of the revenue and the audience and

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Speaker 3: there was nothing left for digital news organizations. They raised,

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Speaker 3: they raised interest rates, the money drives up, and they

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Speaker 3: all and they all disappear, like it's that's more or

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Speaker 3: less like the collapse, the rise and the collapse, and

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Speaker 3: then the kind of platforms walk away with with uh

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Speaker 3: with with most of the audience. H what remains though?

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Speaker 3: The New York Times, like somehow out of that fire,

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Speaker 3: you know, emerges this phoenix that looked like it might

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Speaker 3: not make it at some point. And you know, look

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Speaker 3: at the Los Angeles Times, look at the Chicago Trimmune.

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Speaker 3: Yet the New York Times has been become almost a

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Speaker 3: platform onto itself. Do you think that's becoming increasingly interesting

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Speaker 3: way to think about the Times rather than as a

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Speaker 3: news organization that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Is it a platform? I don't think it's a platform,

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Speaker 1: because I think a platform implies within it the ability

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Speaker 1: for others to build on it, I will say I

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Speaker 1: largely agree with your history there of the twenty tens.

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Speaker 1: The only thing I would say to it is that

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Speaker 1: I don't even think Facebook, at least in my experience,

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Speaker 1: Facebook put some money into help into encouraging people to

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Speaker 1: bring things to video, but for most media organizations, they

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Speaker 1: didn't give them that much money. They weren't that interested

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Speaker 1: in us. What they were doing is both inflating views

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Speaker 1: and just in Facebook and really everywhere, the promise of

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Speaker 1: that era was that you were building these huge audiences

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Speaker 1: on these platforms and that eventually they build the revenue

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Speaker 1: mechanisms so you can monetize that. Right, if you think

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Speaker 1: about what BuzzFeed was, what Vice was, what everything was,

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Speaker 1: well huff Post, right, everything was sort of designed now

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Speaker 1: on this theory that having used you know, have Facebook

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Speaker 1: and Twitter and whatever to reach more readers, viewers, whatever

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Speaker 1: it might have been, than we ever had before, we

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Speaker 1: would turn that into money. And at a certain point

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Speaker 1: in each one of these cases, a platform said came

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Speaker 1: in and said, I know what we've been telling you,

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Speaker 1: but actually we're going to turn that into money. And

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Speaker 1: that was the end of it. Right that ultimately those

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Speaker 1: business models couldn't work. And that speaks to what you

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Speaker 1: just said about The New York Times, because the Times

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Speaker 1: fairly early in this process, building off of its own

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Speaker 1: centrality in the media world, its own size, and the

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Speaker 1: quality of the offering, they made a decision that at

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Speaker 1: the time they made it was highly controversial in journalism,

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Speaker 1: which was they were going to try to get people

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Speaker 1: to pay for The New York Times, and they were

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Speaker 1: going to put articles behind a paywall, and they were

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Speaker 1: going to go virtually all in on the idea that

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Speaker 1: you could build a subscription busines business to media digitally,

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Speaker 1: even though all your competitors were free, right, even though

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Speaker 1: somebody could easily just substitute in the Washington Post, the

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Speaker 1: La Times, the Atlantic Right, choose your you know, choose

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Speaker 1: your media organization. The Times wasn't the only one. The

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Speaker 1: Journal and the Financial Times had been doing subscriptions, but

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Speaker 1: there was a view that these publications that were a

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Speaker 1: little bit more like trade publications for the financial press

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Speaker 1: could make subscriptions work, whereas something that was as easily

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Speaker 1: substitutable as news could not. And the absolute core of

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Speaker 1: the New York Times success was making the paywall work

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Speaker 1: and making subscriptions work, and then that informs a lot

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Speaker 1: of subsequent strategy, which is obviously, you know, not mostly

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Speaker 1: stuff that happened before I came here, and I have

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Speaker 1: no role in any of it even now. But when

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Speaker 1: you think of things like games and cooking, the Times

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Speaker 1: has this model which is in a way almost more

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Speaker 1: like the Netflix model.

435
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 4: Right.

436
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: If they can make the package worth paying for, then

437
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: the whole thing work. And so anything that makes a

438
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: package more incrementally valuable is very, very valuable to The

439
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: Times and to me it's one of the And now

440
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 1: they're putting podcast like mine behind a paywall. I mean,

441
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: the new episodes are free, but the older ones are

442
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: going into this paywalled archive because of you. Is the

443
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 1: only thing that is really reliable in funding journalism is

444
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: persuading the audience to pay for it at some level.

445
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: Anything else, be it advertising where the advertisers have a

446
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: lot of views understandably so on what they want to

447
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: advertise next to it's like, you don't want the brand

448
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: association between Lexis to be the devastation of Gaza, right.

449
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: So it's very hard to get really strong advertising for

450
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: a lot of hard and important news stories, and the

451
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: platforms are completely unreliable partners. So if you don't want

452
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: to be completely subject to the whims of one of

453
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: those two businesses or partnerships, you have to be able

454
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: to make convincing people to pay for the thing you're

455
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: making for them work.

456
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 4: So what's really interesting I think about all of that,

457
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 4: and I'm curious about your take on this. I think

458
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 4: what made your writing so compelling in the blog days

459
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: and still now was a sense that the neoliberal consensus,

460
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 4: if we can call it that, sort of taken on

461
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 4: more of a profound or popular meaning now, but at

462
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 4: the time in the Bush era, there was a sense

463
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 4: that it wasn't really working. People in the Bloggis Fair

464
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 4: were writing about privacy and data and aftermath of nine

465
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 4: to eleven and adventurism abroad and all of that, And

466
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 4: I kind of wonder you've written about family policy, or

467
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 4: you've talked about family policy, right, and I wanted to

468
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 4: ask you about that too. There's a sense on the

469
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 4: right that came after the Bush era, in fact, really

470
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 4: after the Obama era, that suddenly this neoliberal consensus that

471
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 4: they had defended so doggedly, whether it was the FBI

472
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 4: or the Patriot Act, really wasn't working, or anti welfare

473
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 4: policies really wasn't working. And there's some thinking in that

474
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 4: space now about how conservatives can use policy is to

475
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 4: shape a world that they see as more conservative on

476
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 4: family level, on community level. So I guess I wonder

477
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 4: if you think you were sort of the right is

478
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: kind of a Johnny come lately to what in some sense,

479
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: not exactly obviously in your policy prescriptions are wildly different

480
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 4: in some cases, but we're you sensing Do you think

481
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 4: you were ahead as someone who is center left, Were

482
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 4: you ahead of sensing something that the right is now

483
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: kind of catching up to.

484
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: I'd have to think about that. It's funny because I

485
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: my initial instinct is to say no. As much as

486
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: I'd like to sell you on on my own prescience, well,

487
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would totally buy that that version

488
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: of what made my writing useful over these over these years.

489
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: But let me not make this about me. I do

490
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: think that the right is dealing with its own set

491
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: of failures, and one of the things that I think

492
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 1: is interesting about where it has ended up is it

493
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: has a lot of trouble then distinguishing what it actually

494
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: wants to do about them. From banal prescriptions on the left.

495
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: And I think if you want to see this very

496
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: clearly among the ideological post liberals, you go listen to

497
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: the podcast episode I did with Patrick Deneen, you know,

498
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: eighteen months ago, a year ago, And in that episode, Daneen,

499
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: who is very close to Jade Vance and has become

500
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: one of these people who you know, talks about, you know,

501
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: the liberals who have been in charge, as if to

502
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: say they've betrayed the country and the people would be

503
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: too too gentle for how he frames it in my view.

504
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: But then you talk to him and it was very

505
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: hard to figure out where he really differed from Joe Biden,

506
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: And if you then read his subsequent book, it was

507
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: still very hard to figure it out. It's like you're

508
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: going to expand the House of Representatives to a thousand people,

509
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: You're going to do national service, like this is your

510
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: big set of ideas. These are again like they've been everywhere.

511
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's because the center left or

512
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: the left since to these problems earlier. Necessarily, I don't

513
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: think the right has figured out if a lot of

514
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: the problems it is most concerned about are even amenable

515
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: to policy solutions in the first place, Right, if you're

516
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: worried about family breakdown, which people have been worried about

517
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: in different contexts for a very long time, right, I

518
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: think you can really understand JD. Vance's Hillbilly elegy as

519
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: an extension of what had been written about black communities

520
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: for a very long time and is bringing a lot

521
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: of that same research. Somebody described it to me the

522
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: other day as like the Mooin to Hand report for

523
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: white people. And this family breakdown is a very very

524
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: hard problem to solve. People have tried lots of different

525
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: things on the right and the left, and it's not

526
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: really worked. Fertility rates, which are a big question on

527
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: the right right now, there are a lot of countries

528
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: have been going through much more profound fertility collapse and

529
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: anything we're seeing in the United States. They have a

530
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: much more intense set of incentives to do something about it,

531
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: and nothing they have tried. If you're looking at places

532
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: like South Korea and Japan and Italy and others, none

533
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: of it has worked. And by the way, that's true

534
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: on the you know, more liberal solutions too. A lot

535
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: of times liberals will say, well, if you want to

536
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: do something about fertility rates, you need universal childcare and

537
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: this and that, but they're not higher in the Nordic

538
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: countries where you do see those kinds of wrap around

539
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: social policies. So I think there are a bunch of

540
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: things people on the right are worried about. Some of

541
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: them you could solve in more liberal ways, right, I mean,

542
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: you could get wages up using a number of the

543
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: just normal policies like the ear in income tax credit.

544
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: You know, in the child tax credit. You can get

545
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: effectively the amount of money people have to spend up

546
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: by using tax transfers. We know how to do that.

547
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,959
Speaker 1: But in terms of some of the broader community dimensions,

548
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: family dimensions that I think truly sit at the core

549
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: of things people on the right are worried about, I

550
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: don't think they have. They've only, I think, begun to

551
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: recognize the scale of the problem. They definitely have not

552
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: thought up, or worked through or trialed out solutions that

553
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: fit the problem. And to a bunch of things we

554
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: talked about. When you're on my show, then you get

555
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: into the cultural dimensions of the rot the right or

556
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: the postable right, or whatever you want to call it.

557
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: The new right is seeing and on the other hand,

558
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: they've tied themselves to Donald Trump and barstool sports and

559
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of aggressive accelerators of that cultural rot and

560
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: so the contradictions become even more profound within that movement.

561
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: So I think the ideological difficulty of what of what

562
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: the sort of new right is trying to grapple with

563
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: is at this point like frankly underappreciated.

564
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe that's a good question for Emily then is

565
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 3: I thought, tell me if you agree as with that.

566
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: Jade Vance's performance in the vice presidential debate, in a

567
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: lot of moments, was actually the most eloquent articulation of

568
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: Biden's economic policy and Biden's economic agenda that anybody had

569
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 3: put forward, except it would then be done with a

570
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 3: line also that Biden is destroying the country. It's like, okay, fine,

571
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: but everything you just said is something that they have

572
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: embraced and done and would like to and would like

573
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 3: to do, and to the point that it might not

574
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: be enough to do the cultural things that he's arguing

575
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: for Emily, is it like that goes back to the

576
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: question of how real is it? And is some of

577
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: this just cover for actually wanting to smuggle in the

578
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 3: cultural stuff under the guise of the kind of economic populism,

579
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: but understanding that you need both to make them more palatable,

580
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: like what like, how do you move forward as the

581
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: new right?

582
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 4: There I think, I think there's a cynical interpretation where

583
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 4: there are some people who are genuinely engaged in the

584
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 4: project of smuggling. I think there are other people I

585
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 4: would include myself, I would include JD and this who

586
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 4: see them as inextricably intertwined the sort of project of

587
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 4: economic populism and a more conservative culture. But what's really

588
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: interesting about that comparison. I'm very curious as we thinking

589
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 4: about this too, is it shows what's untenable I think

590
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 4: about ultimately the realignment between right and left, because you

591
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: could see the JD vance defense of the Biden policy

592
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 4: I think being true if Biden was explicitly doing it

593
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 4: to reduce single parent households, to improve marriage rates, to

594
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: make people more interested in getting married and less interested

595
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 4: in getting divorced, to you know, ultimately boost the cause

596
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: of let's say like community, civic society and all that.

597
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 4: And I guess Biden might say it was about civil

598
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 4: society as well, but marriage and children in particular. We

599
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 4: see the Harris campaign, you know, understandably latching onto JD's

600
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 4: childless cat lady quote. And I think that's the fundamental

601
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: difference between JD's his defense of economic populism and Biden's

602
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 4: defense of economic populism. And I actually think that that's

603
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 4: what makes it sort of untenable the realignment in the

604
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 4: long term. And I think it's a huge problem for

605
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 4: those of us on a new Right who want to

606
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 4: sell these policies to the public. It's just the public's

607
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: really not with us on some of those were those

608
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 4: questions of cultural conservatism.

609
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: Here's I think an interesting way of thinking about this.

610
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: I think it's worth thinking of Pete Boodhajedge and JD

611
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: Vance as having certain echoes of each other, which I

612
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: think both people, both of them would really hate. But

613
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: it's one reason they hate each other so much. But

614
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: if you look at and go listen to the podcast

615
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: episodes that Pete Bootajedge did while Pete boota judge was

616
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: rising up in politics over the past you know, five

617
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: or six years, you go listen to the things he

618
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: did with people like me and on you know liberal

619
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: shows that where the audience is a liberal and he

620
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: was not quite as well known as he is today.

621
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: And he sounds the way he does when he just

622
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: did my show a month ago. Right, he sounds the

623
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: way he does when he goes on Fox News more

624
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: or less. Right, he sounds the same. The thing that liberals,

625
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: even to somebody the left, are saying internally is the

626
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: same as what they are saying externally. They believe that

627
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: what they are saying to each other is actually a

628
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: thing they can say to the public. You look at

629
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: the problem Jady Vance has had and then what he

630
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: did in that debate, And the reason Jady Vance was

631
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: so good in that debate is he didn't sound like

632
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: Jady Vance at all. He did an amazing job not

633
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: sounding like Jadvance and also not sounding like Donald Trump.

634
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: So what he did was you go watch him in

635
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: all these podcast interviews and speeches and nat Con conferences

636
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: and whatever that he was doing on his rise up,

637
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: and he sounds like one guy, and then when he

638
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: needs to try to win over the general public, he

639
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: sounds totally different. Now, there's always obviously a certain amount

640
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: of running to the center that happens in political campaigns.

641
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: You can certainly see it with Kamala Harris but there

642
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: is something deeper here happening that is of particular difficulty,

643
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: I think for the right, where part of what the

644
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: right I think has persuaded itself of is it modern

645
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: American culture is decadent and perverse. And part of maybe

646
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 1: what you need to do about that has to do

647
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: with calling it decadent and perverse. And so in their

648
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: own fora we'll call it decadent and perverse and talk

649
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: about the miserable, childless cat ladies and all the terrible

650
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: choices are making in their own lives. And then they

651
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: have to win over an actual voter. They shut the

652
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,959
Speaker 1: hell up about that and run from it as fast

653
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: as they possibly can. And the problem Vance has had

654
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: is that it's not that easy for him to run

655
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: for it. But this is where you see a real,

656
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: a real political problem. When the things you are actually

657
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: saying and the things you then need to say in

658
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: public develop that level of divergence from each other, then

659
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: you have an unresolved problem within not just your political

660
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: coalition but your political thinking, because you're not going to

661
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: be able to do it if you can't even really

662
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 1: talk about it.

663
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: Is that something that people are grappling with on the right.

664
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 3: And I'm curious how much of the the different presentations,

665
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: let's say, is on a right wing podcast versus and

666
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 3: the vice presidential debate, how much of those different presentations

667
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: reflect fundamentally different politics, and how much of it reflects

668
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: what he would argue is the same politics and the

669
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: same policies but kind of dressed up differently messaging purposes

670
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 3: for different audiences.

671
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 4: Well, I think for JD it's definitely different messaging purposes

672
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: for different audiences, and it's like exactly correct about him.

673
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: I think for some people, I mean, I actually get this.

674
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's like you you it's it's in good faith

675
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: because you know that there's such a massive gulf between

676
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 4: where you are in terms of like your faith and

677
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 4: where you are where you're whoever you're talking to, whatever

678
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 4: audience you're talking to, is you know, if you're talking

679
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 4: to an audience, for example, that has people who who

680
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 4: could have you know, trans family members, which is basically

681
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 4: any audience right now, like you you can't talk to

682
00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 4: them like you would be talking to them. The right

683
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 4: wing podcasts would be like just be rude more than

684
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 4: you know, being unappealing, It would just be rude and uncharitable.

685
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 4: So I think there's there's some of that that happens

686
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: when media is siloed in the technological ways that we

687
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 4: were talking about, and some of these these social gaps

688
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: are so significant. But I think, you know, for politicians

689
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: like JD. Vance, watching him is fascinating because there's some

690
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 4: of the stuff that conservatives really thought in the aftermath

691
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty when there was some you know what

692
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 4: people have called quote unquote woe flash, when there were

693
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: some of that, conservatives thought, this is it, this is

694
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 4: our ticket. We have found the way to sell and

695
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 4: Jdvans very much ran on this platform. We have found

696
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: a way to sell this new right agenda of economic

697
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 4: populism and cultural conservatism. The public is ready for it,

698
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: and that quickly they became it quickly became clear that

699
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 4: that was not true. And so some of it right

700
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 4: now I think absolutely isn't bad faith. It is you know,

701
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 4: just talking to different audiences with messages that are in

702
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 4: some ways deceptive, right deceptive, And it's a I think

703
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 4: it's a really interesting point.

704
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: And as we're actually I'm curious for your take on

705
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: the on the from the inside of the New York

706
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 3: Times and the on the woe the woe clash, as

707
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: Emily called it. I hadn't actually heard that phrase before,

708
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: but I but I love it with but we we

709
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: we can all, we can all feel it happening. That

710
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: it felt like the center left kind of overstepped when

711
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: it came to identity politics and has is now very

712
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: quietly stepping back, but not doing so overtly, Like there's

713
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 3: nobody is out there necessarily kind of renouncing any of

714
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 3: the bumper stickers or yard signs that they have, but

715
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: they're just not putting up fresh ones. I'm curious if

716
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: you're if you're seeing that unfold inside the inside the

717
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: the ecosystems where you kind of operate.

718
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: I say nothing about the inside of the New York Times,

719
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: and nothing I say here will be about the inside

720
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: of the New York Times. I will say I think

721
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: you can look around the media politics generally, and yeah,

722
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: see a huge change. I think there are a couple

723
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: dimensions to this. One is that there is a difference

724
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: between what people came to believe and how they came

725
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: to act, or at least how they came to be

726
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: pushed on those beliefs. And the core thing here in

727
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: My view was actually technological. You had this two new

728
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: things hit the media in a fairly compressed period of time,

729
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: and also many other corporate environments or institutional environments too. Obviously, Ryan,

730
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: you were at a huge and very very influential piece

731
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: on progressive movement politics about this. But I would call

732
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: it Slack and Twitter. And what Slack did was created

733
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: internal capacity for workers to talk and to organize, right,

734
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: not organized necessarily the labor union term of the sense,

735
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: but organized in a more informal term, and managers can't right.

736
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: The way the Slack works and institutions was, at least

737
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: in that period was there was a lot of you know,

738
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: emojis coming in under things people said. But but the

739
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: managers are much more you know, checking what they say

740
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,959
Speaker 1: by HR and the lawyers and so on. So first

741
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: you had this sort of communication gulf changing.

742
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 2: Right.

743
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: It used to be that it is fairly easy for

744
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: the boss to kind of call everybody into the room

745
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: and make some speech, and it's actually harder for the

746
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: sense of the employees to be to be passed back up.

747
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: Slack made that very easy, and then Twitter made it

748
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: easy for that to spill out, particularly in high visibility

749
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: industries into public and so the thing that a lot

750
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 1: of these institutions had no immunity to was what did

751
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: you do when these sort of internal slack fights became

752
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: external public relations problems or perceived public relations problems on Twitter,

753
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: and a lot of them just were folding kind of

754
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: left and right. They you know, were firing people, They

755
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: were acting in ways that were afraid. They were putting

756
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: out statements they didn't necessarily believe. Now that doesn't mean

757
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: they didn't believe the under a set of the underlying

758
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: things about there being huge levels of systemic racism in society.

759
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: You know that there were all kinds of problems and

760
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: inequities that should be addressed. And I do think part

761
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: of the step back has been a step back from

762
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: some of the ways that institutions without any immune system

763
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: to this sort of new era kind of would overreact

764
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: to I think, in my view, fairly modest levels of

765
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: public criticism. But that does not mean I think there's

766
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: been a step back from believing a lot of the

767
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: things that were not believed about society in say, twenty

768
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: and thirteen, in twenty fourteen, so, for instance, I think

769
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: the view that there is systemic racism in policing is

770
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: widely held, but the view that you defund the police

771
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: is not now widely held. But I think ten years ago,

772
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: neither view was all that widely held, or at least

773
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: not talked about that often in public. And I think

774
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: you could find a lot of different things like this

775
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: where the idiological priors have been absorbed into or the

776
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: ideological arguments up to a point, have been absorbed into

777
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: the system. They are now kind of common sense when

778
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: they weren't at another time. I think organizations think about

779
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: representation very differently than they did when I got into

780
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: the media in two thousand and five, for instance. But

781
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: the sense that your employees are going to, you know,

782
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: in a progressive nonprofit or a media organization or even

783
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: a corporation like Nike, your employees are going to put

784
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of like slack faces under something somebody said

785
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 1: and then you know, go public on Twitter, and that's

786
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: going to be treated as a problem for the organization

787
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: to deal with, as a problem for the employee to

788
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: now have to deal with their bosses. I think that

789
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: has changed, so my views, administrators and managers have a

790
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: very different approach to dealing with these things, and some

791
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: of the sort of inability to say, well, hey, wait,

792
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: is that actually a good idea has gone away. But

793
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: it's not like we've gone all the way back to

794
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: how people understood the situation to be in twenty ten.

795
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: I think there's a very very different sense of what

796
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: is required of and should be thought about in a

797
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: lot of both key decisions and and in society at large.

798
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Emily, I think the left had gone a

799
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: little so bananas for a while that the right felt

800
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: like it had a really easy target, and I feel

801
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: like that target has been taken away. I'm curious from

802
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 3: the right, like if, as you grapple with the left

803
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: and go out and target this like the wocism and

804
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 3: all that stuff, if it feels harder for the right

805
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: to hit it now, Like if it feels like and

806
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: almost I could imagine from the right's perspective in almost

807
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: an unfair way, because it's like, wait a minute, we

808
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 3: never talked about it on the rise up there was

809
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 3: that everybody kept saying there is no such thing as

810
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 3: cancel culture. Obviously there was, but that makes it harder

811
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: for then people to talk about its recession at the

812
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: same time because something that was never here, can't go away.

813
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: It was like you're fighting these ghosts, but now they

814
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: might be actual ghosts. So I'm curious from your perspective

815
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 3: if it feels like a tougher target to hit now.

816
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 4: I think there's something to that because one of the

817
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 4: one of the trends that I've observed going back to

818
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 4: the beginning of this conversation is I think some of

819
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 4: mainstream media responding to the market pressures that when you

820
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 4: see people doing really well on a platform like substack.

821
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 4: If you're the New York Times and you see Barry

822
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 4: weis doing really well on a platform like substack, I

823
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 4: think you realize that the the people who are complaining

824
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 4: about coverage that undercut the consensus position on like puberty blockers,

825
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 4: for just to take one example, is acceptable, and that

826
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 4: there you know that there are more people who are

827
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 4: open to having a reasonable discussion than the sample of

828
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 4: people in the publications slack or you know, the slack

829
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 4: at the Washington Post or the LA Times or the

830
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 4: Associated Press that the country more broadly is is comfortable

831
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 4: with having a conversation that everyone in your newsroom might

832
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 4: not be. So whether some of these elite opinions be

833
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 4: they at Disney or somewhere else, is ultimately representative of

834
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: a larger trend and young people. It was probably the

835
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 4: was overestimating the public support for some of those really

836
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 4: radical or harder left positions. And I think also just

837
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: really quick final point would be that media in general

838
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 4: makes it hard for the right to come to a

839
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 4: policy position, like to actually have a firm position on

840
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 4: a lot of policies, because so much of our energy

841
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 4: is understandably tied up in picking apart media coverage and

842
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 4: finding bias and arguing against bias, that we all sort

843
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: of end up looking around and saying, okay, but what

844
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 4: do we actually what do we actually think about this?

845
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 4: What should we actually do about this? And oftentimes you

846
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 4: just never get to that point because the first step

847
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 4: is like going through the bad coverage.

848
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: I think two things about this one. I think it

849
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: would be really really healthy for the right if it

850
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: didn't tell itself that if the right would spend more

851
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: time creating good media organizations to do good reporting at

852
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: a high level of factual accuracy instead of complaining so

853
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: much about the media, it'd be so much healthier. I

854
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: remember when Tucker Carlson came out and said he was

855
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: building the Daily Caller right and it was going to

856
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: be the conservative New York Times, and good lord, but

857
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: that became right. There's like a real level of empirical

858
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: and epistemic standards that the right does not hold itself to,

859
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: which is not a thing the left does to it,

860
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: but is an actual problem on its own side. And that,

861
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: in my view, is what makes it hard for the

862
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 1: right to come to strong policy positions, because it doesn't

863
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: have strong internal internal standards for its own debates. And

864
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: one way of thinking about this, to connect it to

865
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 1: what we were just talking about, is there all kinds

866
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: of things that you know we're coming were ideological waves

867
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: happening on the left and the Democratic Party in twenty twenty.

868
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: The Democratic Party and the sort of broader left, central left,

869
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, liberal coalition has metabolized.

870
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: It's kind of said, Okay, we're taking this part, even

871
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: this part behind. That's not true for the right from

872
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: what it was dealing within twenty twenty. Jd Vance will

873
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: not currently say that Donald trumb lost a twenty twenty election.

874
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: Mike Pence was not at this year's Republican National Convention,

875
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: and so one actual asymmetry to me between the parties

876
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: when you think back to their condition in twenty twenty

877
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: was both parties were having a very very hard year

878
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: for a bunch of different reasons. I also think the

879
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: pandemic year is very hard on both parties. Right, There's

880
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: a lot going on in American society that had had

881
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: pushed kind of everybody into a very strange place. But

882
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: I think the institutions on the left are just frankly

883
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: healthier and more able to engage in slightly reasoned and

884
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: managed criticism and periods of renewal, and at least under

885
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: Donald Trump on the right, that's not been as true.

886
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: And frankly the institutions on the right that have been

887
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: trying to build some kind of structure for this. I

888
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: think Heritage Foundation and Project twenty twenty five really saw

889
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: itself as one of these groups, right, they were going

890
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: to take this kind of mess of things from twenty

891
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: twenty and turn it into some thing, and it's become

892
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: like a huge catastrophe over there. But I do think

893
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: Trump himself creates a lot of difficulty and the media

894
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: dynamics themselves, right, I mean the Fox News and Dominion

895
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: like settlements really tell you something. And now Tucker Carlson

896
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: is over on X you know, with Elon Musk, where

897
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 1: you know, he's still a very influential figure on the right,

898
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: but has even less institutional strictures on what he can

899
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: say or what level you know, those statements are going

900
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: to be held to. And so I do think institutional

901
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: health is a very big part of this, and just

902
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: a problem the right is facing is that it has

903
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: not learned a lot from twenty twenty right. I think

904
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: the left actually has.

905
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious for your take on that, because there

906
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 3: was this I don't know if you know this speech

907
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: that Tucker Carlson gave several years after he started the

908
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 3: Daily Caller, as you might remember this too, where he

909
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 3: basically said I was wrong. Like the right doesn't want this,

910
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 3: Like the right does not want a rigorous conservative New

911
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 3: York Times. The right ones a warrior, you know, for

912
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 3: the right, like and that's what it And it sees

913
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 3: right wing journalism as a weapon to be wielded on

914
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: behalf of the movement rather than on the left. It's

915
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 3: it's kind of it's like a check on the movement.

916
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 3: It's like and the journalism is first and the and

917
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: the kind of ideology is a second that does seem

918
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 3: to be an asymmetry. Not to speak ill of your colleagues,

919
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 3: as we're talking institutionally, not not colleagues, not none of

920
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 3: your particular colleagues at different institutions. But I'm curious if

921
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 3: that's been your uh if if that's been your experience

922
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 3: on the in in the right, in the right wing

923
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: media ecosystem, you know.

924
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 4: I think part of it, so I'll say, actually, I

925
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: think part of it is that Fox News is the

926
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 4: elephant in the room because everyone is sort of like

927
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 4: comparing themselves or the Fox just has so much power

928
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 4: and it's waned a little bit, but has so much

929
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 4: power over the consumer. So it's hard to you it's

930
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 4: it's it's hard to kind of build conservative media.

931
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 3: From especially when Tucker launch Daily Caller that Fox was

932
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 3: like hegemonic.

933
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, oh my gosh. Absolutely, And so that really

934
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 4: set the tone for a lot of people in conservative media.

935
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously there are a ton of conservative journalists,

936
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 4: and you know, we would maybe disagree on some of them.

937
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 4: I know a lot of people who are committed to

938
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 4: pursuing truth. As you know, an open biased conservative but

939
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 4: you know, there are definitely I do. I agree that's

940
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 4: a problem. I think the dominion settlement point is really

941
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 4: interesting because my sort of rebuttal that would be there

942
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 4: was also the Covington Catholic Settlement from CNN, and I

943
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: just don't know. For me, I see the forces that

944
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 4: created the dominion settlement, meaning Fox News's coverage of the

945
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 4: twenty twenty election that led to the dominion settlement, which

946
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 4: in some cases really followed Trump's line. I see that

947
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 4: as being downstream of the forces that created the Covington

948
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 4: Catholic Settlement, which came from CNN kind of jumping the

949
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 4: gun on what happened to Nick Sandmen on the National

950
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 4: Mall for reasons that were pretty clearly ideological. You guys

951
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 4: might disagree, you know, journalists get things drunk sometimes. I

952
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 4: thought that was purely ideological error. So I think conservatives

953
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 4: are just constantly reacting. It becomes very hard for our

954
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 4: institutions to reflect sort of first principles and then pursue

955
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 4: a healthy debate over policies. So I kind of agree

956
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 4: and disagree at the same time.

957
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: I guess as were before you go, uh, I did

958
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: you know you covered you cover economic policy that's, you know,

959
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 3: your thing for decades really has been that area. So

960
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 3: tell us, like what is going on with Kamala Harris's

961
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 3: campaign and Lena Khan and Jonathan Cantor, Like, why why

962
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 3: haven't they just come out and said, of course we're

963
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: going to reappoint Lena Khan and Jonathan Cantor. They have

964
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,959
Speaker 3: they have been central to this this pro worker, anti

965
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 3: trust policy that the Biden administration is pushed forward. What

966
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 3: why won't they just do that?

967
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: Like, what do you hear? I don't think they would

968
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 1: do that about any member of the administration, like one.

969
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: I think there's actually a rule you're not allowed to

970
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: do that usually. Uh, but they haven't said we're going

971
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: to repoint Jennet Yellen, who's going to be you know,

972
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: who's been central to the economic recovery.

973
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 3: Right, But also nobody on Wall Street is demanding that.

974
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: I just I think the actual I think the actual

975
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: line you're look, I think there's a version where why

976
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: have they not said, listen, Lena Khan's you know, approach

977
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: is great versus we're definitely going.

978
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 3: To Rea think those are.

979
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: Pretty different questions, and the answer here is a little

980
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: bit I'm not sure. I don't know what I think

981
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris believes in her harder hearts about anti trust policy.

982
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily that you know, read Hastings

983
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: or read Hoffmann. I forget which read was Antilena Kon

984
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: gets to set FDC policy, but her, you know. I

985
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: think one of the realities of the Kamala Harris campaign

986
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: is it emerged in matter of weeks, right, and so

987
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: the work that a normal campaign would have done and

988
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 1: that the candidate themselves would have done over the course

989
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,959
Speaker 1: of a primary and a year to kind of work

990
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: every dimension of this out and give a series of

991
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: major speeches laying out there thinking on it, they both

992
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: not only didn't do, but didn't have to do. And

993
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: a lot of that is done because you have to

994
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: do it right. In some ways, it's strategically valuable to

995
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: be ambiguous. The people who would be upset if you

996
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: didn't reappoint Lenicon or someone like her, If you tell

997
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: them we're not going to appoint Lenikon or someone like her,

998
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: they're really mad, Whereas if you don't say anything at all,

999
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: they're not happy, but they're still there in the coalition

1000
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: trying to influence the coalition, and so the fact that

1001
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 1: Harris did not have a primary process were pushed from

1002
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: the left or from the right, she had to distinguish

1003
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: which side of somebody. These divides she's been on has

1004
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: given them the opportunity to maintain a high level strategic ambiguity.

1005
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: So they maintain to some degree, given the Donald Trump

1006
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: is the opponent, the loyalty of the people and the

1007
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: lean con wing of the Democratic Party, even if that

1008
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: loyalty is currently suspicious and a little bit frustrated, but

1009
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: also the donors that that maybe don't want that, and

1010
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: then if they win the election, then they're gonna have

1011
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: to make some choices, you know, at the moment, they

1012
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: don't have to make.

1013
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 3: Speaking of that open primary, you and I were both

1014
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 3: rattling the cages for some type of an open process

1015
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 3: to nominate a replacement for Biden, if he could be

1016
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 3: persuaded to drop out. Were we right at the time?

1017
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: You think? I mean, I.

1018
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: Think early we were right. I mean I think Early

1019
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: still right the right thing? Are we still No? I

1020
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: don't think they should do an open primary.

1021
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 3: Or not now, But like in hindsight, were we right?

1022
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think two things about this hard One.

1023
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: We don't know if Kamala Harris is going to win

1024
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: the election, and if it turns out that the polling

1025
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 1: is systematically, you know, getting Trump wrong by three points

1026
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, I think there's gonna be a lot

1027
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: of people who say, yeah, you know, either she should

1028
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: have picked Jos Shapiro or or in fact running a

1029
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: sort of a liberal San Franciscan politician, you know, in

1030
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: the industrial Midwest is not what the party should have

1031
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: been doing this year, which is why there was actually

1032
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: so much resistance to having Joe Biden stepped down and

1033
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris step up much earlier in the process. I mean,

1034
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: as you know, because you were doing some of this

1035
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: work too. The big thing in the party was not

1036
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden at eighty one or eighty two is

1037
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: an effective candidate, but there was very very little faith

1038
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: that Harris could step into his place effectively given where

1039
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: Democrats needed to win. Now, Harris was clearly underrated. I

1040
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: made that point back in February. I made that point

1041
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: consistently after February. But we don't exactly know how underrated,

1042
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: and so if she wins, I think people are going

1043
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: to say that was all ridiculous. Harris is great particly

1044
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: she wins convincingly, and if she doesn't, people are going

1045
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: to say that. You know, Joe Biden should have stepped

1046
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: down earlier in the party, should have been able to

1047
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: go through a competitive process to figure out, you know,

1048
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: which kind of candidate could best compete in the places

1049
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: Democrats need to win. But by the time Joe Biden

1050
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: actually stepped down, given how late in the game it was,

1051
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: I mean you were talking weeks before the Democratic Convention

1052
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: at that point, and given how exhausted the party was

1053
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,720
Speaker 1: by what it took to get him to step aside

1054
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: and his endorsement, like, there was no uh, there was

1055
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: no possibility or opening for that right. If he had

1056
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: stepped down in March or decided not to run for

1057
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: reelection at all, that would have been a different question.

1058
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: How much how much heat did you get for that

1059
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 3: that February piece calling for Biden to step aside by

1060
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 3: the Power Center, It's like I'm at a place now

1061
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 3: in my career. I'm a a at a place my career.

1062
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 3: Those those folks used they used to give me hell

1063
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 3: all the time, Like the like Center Left World they've

1064
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 3: kind of given up on me. Like they're like, we're

1065
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 3: not we're not we're not influencing this guy, but we're

1066
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 3: not even gonna waste waste our breath anymore. But you

1067
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 3: know that also means that when I say, like, you know,

1068
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 3: Joe bidens to old hat step aside, they're like, well,

1069
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 3: that's what he says, Like we dont understand. We guess

1070
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 3: we already know he feels that way, but when you

1071
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 3: say it, it packs more punch. What kind of counter

1072
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 3: punch did you get at the time.

1073
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of people were not happy with me. Look,

1074
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: I always want to I'm not like I sit at

1075
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: ESK and I write things and I say them into

1076
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: a microphone. It's not a job of tremendous courage. There

1077
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: are people are pissed at me. And there were a

1078
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: lot of people privately, you know, we're thinking about these

1079
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: questions and wanted to talk about it. But but what

1080
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: they really felt was that I had not sufficiently considered

1081
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: how bad the alternatives were. That was the real private

1082
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: reaction I got. Probably are people were like fuck that guy,

1083
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 1: but they said it on Twitter. Right, you can go

1084
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: look at people you know calling me all sorts of

1085
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: things on Twitter. But because I don't read, I don't

1086
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 1: really read social media reaction in that way. I actually

1087
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: missed a lot of It is funny that when things

1088
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: sort of turned on this argument, people came to me like,

1089
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so sorry for how everybody treated you,

1090
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: and I was like, they treated me that badly. I

1091
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: hadn't actually totally totally clocked how bad people must have been.

1092
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: Although you know, then people sent me when.

1093
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 4: Did you stop? Why didn't you stop tuning into Twitter?

1094
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: I'll read it. I don't read stuff about me on it.

1095
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: I don't think the human mind is well adapted for

1096
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: that level of feedback. And I find that I am

1097
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: a less independent thinker if I am tightly tuned in

1098
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: to the reaction people have to the things that I think,

1099
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: or say or do. But in private, right and I

1100
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: had a lot of conversations, including with Biden administration people,

1101
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: and you know, they were they thought I was wrong.

1102
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: But they thought I was wrong because one, I was

1103
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: underestimating Joe Biden. They thought I was wrong. Two because

1104
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: I was overestimating Kamala Harris, and they thought I was wrong.

1105
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: Three because there's no way that a party could manage

1106
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: an open convention that if Kamala Harris was weak, would

1107
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: pass around Kamala Harris and if you believed all three

1108
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: of those things. And I was definitely wrong, But but

1109
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: I didn't. You know, people knew Joe Biden's age was

1110
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:58,959
Speaker 1: a problem. So in the more reflective spaces in which

1111
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: I tended to like actually have conversations, you know, in

1112
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: a way I that I cared about, you know, it

1113
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: was it was a little bit more interesting. I did

1114
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: find that people thought I was like a total fucking idiot,

1115
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: said so in public and people who didn't said so

1116
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: in private. But you know, I got to have the

1117
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: benefit of both sides of that.

1118
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 3: Cool Emily, anything else, I know, as there's got to

1119
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 3: run pretty soon.

1120
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 4: No, I just want to say thank you. This was

1121
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 4: fantastic and we really appreciate you coming on the show.

1122
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: I'm touched you stay through the whole thing, Emily, and

1123
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm excited to hear to hear what you find from

1124
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: from from the Rome Post a little.

1125
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 3: Bit wall give us tell us real quick, what are

1126
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:45,479
Speaker 3: you hearing, Emily, anything new from your from your Roman friends.

1127
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 4: I think a lot of this is going to change

1128
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 4: based on what happens in November.

1129
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 3: So okay, that's a lot of things right now. All right, well,

1130
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 3: Ezra Kleine, host of the Ezra Klines Show, New York

1131
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 3: Times columnist, thank you so much for joining us.

1132
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: A Gill