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Speaker 1: Hi, there's Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: Get the Money and Run. Over seven episodes, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: learn how Joe Layer became one of California's most daring

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Speaker 1: bank robbers. We're gonna hear about high speed getaways, a

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Speaker 1: relentless FBI, about disguise's body doubles, and also about another

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Speaker 1: side of Joe. Joe Layer is a soul searcher, a

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Speaker 1: soul searching criminal, one of the most original criminals in

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Speaker 1: true crime podcasts, and I listened to a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode First Time Out Remember to binge All seven

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Speaker 1: episodes ad free. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Our host and creator is the Great Benedair, producer of

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Speaker 1: shows like Lost Hill's, Ripple Pulse, The Untold Story. All

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Speaker 1: right over to Ben?

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Speaker 2: How much? How do you planned this all out in advance?

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Speaker 2: But what did you know going into it? How are

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Speaker 2: you going to go in? How are you going to

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Speaker 2: get away?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: None?

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Speaker 3: None?

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Speaker 2: I mean you can't just rob a bank with no plan,

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Speaker 2: can you?

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Speaker 3: What I do remember about the day is this I

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Speaker 3: started ten. I walked into the first bank, and I

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Speaker 3: grab a slip and I write we have a bomb,

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Speaker 3: just a bank cropper, and I wrote a bank rubbing

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Speaker 3: note and then I'm like a fucking I don't want

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Speaker 3: to do this year. For some reason, this doesn't feel right.

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Speaker 3: So I start walking away and as I walk away,

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Speaker 3: there's like three cameras on me at the door, and

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Speaker 3: I realized, I think I could have been busted. Right

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Speaker 3: if anyone just kind of like you know, zoomed in

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Speaker 3: the guy who was writing something on the back of

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Speaker 3: that slip, they could have seen I was trying to

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Speaker 3: rob that bank. So I wrote my next one, next

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Speaker 3: note at McDonald's, just run it there. And I would

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Speaker 3: walk in the banks and I would leave them all

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Speaker 3: day long, you know, Like I would walk in and

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Speaker 3: I would stand in line, go a couple of steps up,

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Speaker 3: A couple of customers would be going and I was like, nah,

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Speaker 3: that I don't got a feel for this. I'd walk in,

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Speaker 3: I'd see you know guards, Noah, God, I swear to

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Speaker 3: God man. I probably nibbled a little bit of food

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Speaker 3: from every fast food joint available at the time, KFC, Wendy's.

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Speaker 3: If this was a short film, it would be a

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Speaker 3: comic film because you would see me going in there, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And the

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Speaker 3: next thing, you see me drinking coffee at McDonald's. You

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Speaker 3: see me, Okay, I'm gonna do it. I gonna be

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Speaker 3: all fucking nerve you in there. The next scene, I'm

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Speaker 3: biting the whopper at or like it would just be okay,

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Speaker 3: let's do it, let's do it, Taco Bell, do it,

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Speaker 3: let's do it, Wendy. It was like fucking hilarious.

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Speaker 2: Where were you feeling inside?

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Speaker 3: Fear? I was just like, at this point, I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to jail, just standing in line thinking about robbing

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Speaker 3: a bank. When I go do the next thing, this

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Speaker 3: is the real thing. So I know that on the

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Speaker 3: other side of this is a payoff, a big payoff,

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Speaker 3: because when you run past your fear, then it cannot

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Speaker 3: harass you anymore. On this side of it, it's a big, dark,

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Speaker 3: menacing curtain and it's saying, try to come back here,

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Speaker 3: see what the fuck's gonna happen, And you're like, I

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Speaker 3: don't know if I want to open that curtain. Oh fuck.

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Speaker 3: Once you open that curtain, that curtain fucking evaporates. There's

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Speaker 3: no more curtain you could turn around like, where's that

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Speaker 3: freaking curtain? It was menacing me. There's no curtain, And

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Speaker 3: that's what you have to do. You have to push

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Speaker 3: past your fear to get to the next level.

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Speaker 2: Right now, walking in and out of these banks all

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Speaker 2: day staring at that curtain.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that curtain is just like taunting me, you fucking punk.

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Speaker 3: And I knew that I had this in me where

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Speaker 3: I could cough up a nutsck and do something if

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Speaker 3: I need to do it now. All day I wasn't

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Speaker 3: coughing up the nutsack all day, I was not calling

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Speaker 3: up my courage. It would just go somewhere. We only

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Speaker 3: get me so far, and then it would peter out.

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Speaker 3: But it was like this point, I was like this,

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Speaker 3: so we're doing it. We're doing it right now. Fuck

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Speaker 3: all the bullshit, Let's go do this.

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Speaker 2: Part one, first time out. Okay. So I'm sitting here

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Speaker 2: in the studio. This has been adare and I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: here in the studio with Joe Loya. Hi Joe Joe.

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Speaker 2: Today you're wearing a sort of a black pullover shirt.

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Speaker 2: You have got black glasses, silver goatee. You normally you

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Speaker 2: have a City of Oakland baseball cap, right here on

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Speaker 2: the chair next to you. How do you describe yourself

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Speaker 2: to people?

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Speaker 3: I say I'm fluffy. I mean, I don't say I'm fat,

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Speaker 3: but I'm very heavy. I mean you're living, Yeah, living,

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Speaker 3: I'm existing large.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why to liver you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm I'm a thick man, Mexican man, dark skin,

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Speaker 3: you know, in a.

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Speaker 2: Late fifties, late fifties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, easy to say.

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Speaker 2: I mean, looking at you now, you're charming. I don't

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Speaker 2: think people would understand that you used to break school

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Speaker 2: records and track.

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Speaker 3: Though nobody's get into My friend Danny Diego Swan City, said, man,

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Speaker 3: you look like you ate that guy I showed on

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Speaker 3: the photo of me when I was eighteen years old.

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Speaker 2: He says, man, you look like you ate that guy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, which, that's what I look like. But let's

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Speaker 2: get back into it. It's nineteen eighty four. You've never

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Speaker 2: robbed a bank before. You've committed crimes, but mostly small stuff, fraud,

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Speaker 2: stealing cars. Enough that has gotten the attention of the cops.

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Speaker 2: You're wanted by police. So you've been hiding out in Tijuana. Uh,

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Speaker 2: You've driven up to San Diego from Tijuana. You're in

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Speaker 2: a stolen car, and you're walking in and out of

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Speaker 2: banks all day. But now it's deadline time.

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Speaker 3: HM. Okay, So finally four forty five, I gotta rob

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Speaker 3: this bank. I know it. There's no getting around it.

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Speaker 3: We're doing it right now. I don't have a choice.

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Speaker 3: I stand in line, have my note and go to

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Speaker 3: the line and say, how are you doing, sir? I said,

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Speaker 3: I'm fine. How you doing is? I'm walking over Let

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Speaker 3: everybody like see us, and then let not pay attention

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Speaker 3: to us. And as I walk up there, I slide

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Speaker 3: the note here, she puts it. I put it down

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Speaker 3: on the table. I slide it to her. She looks

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Speaker 3: down at it, and she reads it and reads it

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Speaker 3: and reads like has plenty of time to have read it,

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Speaker 3: turned it over, copied it, turned it back over, read

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Speaker 3: it again, like too long. So I reached forward and

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Speaker 3: I realized I got to get her attention. So I

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Speaker 3: grabbed a note and I move it around a little bit,

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Speaker 3: like hey, let's do something about this, And she still

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Speaker 3: won't look up. So I had to pull the note

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Speaker 3: away from her because I realized, oh shit, I've given

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Speaker 3: her something to distract her. She does not want to

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Speaker 3: look up. And she doesn't have to look up. So

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Speaker 3: I tried to pull the note back, and she tries

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Speaker 3: to pull the note to her. And when she's pulling

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Speaker 3: the note, we're doing this a little bullshit war. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm just fucking pissed. So I lean forward and say

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Speaker 3: I'm not fucking around. I'll jump the counter. And I

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Speaker 3: reached down like I got a gun, and I pat

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Speaker 3: my waistband like I'm coming over. I will fuck you

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Speaker 3: up for this bullshit stuff. And it was in that

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Speaker 3: moment she looks up and just with my eyes I

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Speaker 3: menace her. And then when she looked at me, she

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Speaker 3: saw I was serious. She opened her drawer and just

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Speaker 3: gave me the money. Now, I put on the table

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Speaker 3: on the counter, I put a fanny pack. I start

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Speaker 3: throwing the money in it, and then I tell her

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Speaker 3: good I walk away.

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Speaker 2: So then you get the money, you take the fanny

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Speaker 2: you pick up the fanny.

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Speaker 3: Pack, walk away with my family was zipping it up.

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Speaker 3: I'm walking away like I just did banking. I'm not

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Speaker 3: like running. I'm not like I just robbed the plane. Now,

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Speaker 3: no energy other than you know, walk away. I turn

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Speaker 3: around to walk out of the bank, like I'm a customer.

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Speaker 3: Just finish my transaction. I get to the door, and

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Speaker 3: before I can even walk out the door, somebody yells

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Speaker 3: he robbed the bank. He dropped us. And so I

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Speaker 3: start running, and I mean I run. I'm bending it over,

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Speaker 3: driving my arms and I'm high stepping it, and I'm

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Speaker 3: running to the far away. At the end of the block.

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Speaker 3: I knew there was a trolley station a cab there,

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Speaker 3: and I jumped into the cab, pulled away from these

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Speaker 3: guys kept looking back and they were like in the beginning,

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Speaker 3: they were chasing after me in earnest, and then they

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Speaker 3: realized there's no catching me this this jack Rabbit's gone,

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Speaker 3: gone gone. So get in the car, tell him to

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Speaker 3: get me to Sanya Sidro. He drops me off on

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Speaker 3: the other side of the freeway in Santa Cidro, and

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Speaker 3: then I walk over a bridge to where I had

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Speaker 3: my hotel room. So again inside my room, and obviously

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Speaker 3: the first thing I'm excited to do is figure how

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Speaker 3: much Monday. The guy looked like a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: and so I start counting the money. I break up

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Speaker 3: the twenties, the fifties, one hundreds of five. It's the

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Speaker 3: ten is that I always did, and then I say, okay,

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Speaker 3: that's count it because this looks good, and sure enough,

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Speaker 3: forty five hundred dollars a man of glory felt glorious. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so already when I was in college, I used to

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Speaker 3: think I did this math and thought, you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna get out of college. I'm gonna do four years.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be working through college because we don't

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Speaker 3: have a lot of money. And when I get out,

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Speaker 3: what do I think I might get start off at

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Speaker 3: forty thousand dollars, maybe fifty if I'm lucky. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: but I don't think that I'm going to make a

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Speaker 3: lot of money, and then I'm gonna have to do

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Speaker 3: that over a year of work. And one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons I went into crime was I thought, no, a

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Speaker 3: guy who has that kind of gumption, he should be

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Speaker 3: getting paid buckets of money. I felt like, this, this

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Speaker 3: is what my time is worth. So this money already

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Speaker 3: felt so much better. It felt like I got it

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Speaker 3: based on my wit, on my ferocity. I was getting

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Speaker 3: paid for fucking heart. And also I love the cleanness

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Speaker 3: of it. Like everyone's like, oh, okay, we're gonna go

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Speaker 3: do this game where we exchange money all the time

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Speaker 3: and life, and then we all die. Here I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: get it. Here's a paycheck, and okay. Then here I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna go buy food, and we're all exchanging money and

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Speaker 3: then we die. And I felt like, man, we've been duped.

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Speaker 3: This is no way to fucking live. But if we're

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Speaker 3: gonna be having exchanges of money, let's make it this way. Hi,

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Speaker 3: you have a lot of money, give me your fucking shit.

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Speaker 3: Now it's my money. Buy Just give me the money.

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Speaker 3: That's what I want by It's just clean, and it

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Speaker 3: was fast, and it was commiserate to my time. That's great.

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Speaker 3: I love getting four thousand, five thousand dollars for five

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Speaker 3: minutes of work. I felt like that's I should be

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Speaker 3: getting that every day of my life, every five minutes

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Speaker 3: of my life. So I was happy. It was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't have to be a petty criminal ever again.

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Speaker 3: I never have to steal a snicker bar, a shirt,

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Speaker 3: I never have to defraud anybody. I owe somebody fifty bucks,

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Speaker 3: I get to give them fifty bucks. I get to

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Speaker 3: be honorable now and in my life except for this

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Speaker 3: one thing, because I'm a bank robber. Now, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: rob Banks. That's all I'm gonna do too too.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back Part two. Mama's Boy. Not to

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Speaker 2: be out telling me about your mother. But what was

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Speaker 2: life like for a young Joe growing up?

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Speaker 3: Okay? So I was born in East Los Angeles, the

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Speaker 3: old Matavia housing projects, back in those days. My parents

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Speaker 3: were sixteen when I was born. My mother had just

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Speaker 3: turned seventeen when I was born, and so my mother

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Speaker 3: and dad found other. My mother was pregnant. They went

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Speaker 3: to their parents and parents said, you're getting married. They

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Speaker 3: were in tenth grade. Sid, You're getting married. And it

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Speaker 3: was a loving home, cool, loving home. The love story

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Speaker 3: that I was raised in with my parents, They've loved

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Speaker 3: each other since twelve. Everyone loved them. I was raised

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Speaker 3: in that love story. I was raised in the love.

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Speaker 3: We went to church, and our church was our life

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Speaker 3: at that time. I was raised with Bible stories. I

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Speaker 3: was raised at church camps. I was raised pot lucks Man.

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Speaker 3: I was raised in the church, and I was raised

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Speaker 3: with a dad who wanted to be a preacher, and

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Speaker 3: he had a love of language. He was he was

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Speaker 3: very smart and he was devoted to learning. Everything was

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Speaker 3: cool until seven. I turned seven, by that time, we'd

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Speaker 3: moved out to People Rivera and my mother got sick

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Speaker 3: as always. Man, this always gets me, man. I remember

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Speaker 3: my mother got a job at the Sears tower over

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Speaker 3: here on the Olympic. I don't even know if the

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Speaker 3: Seers buildings still there, but there's be a big Sears

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Speaker 3: building there, and she got in the typing pool because

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Speaker 3: she apparently she was like she was a typing folio man.

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Speaker 3: But what I remember about that is my dad would

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Speaker 3: would go warm up the car. My dad would go

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Speaker 3: warm up the car outside. This in the days when

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Speaker 3: you weren't afraid someone was just gonna steal your car, right,

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Speaker 3: you would go warm up the car, you know, turn

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Speaker 3: the heater on in there cause it's cold. It was,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's early morning, like three or four. Maybe

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Speaker 3: it was it was four or five, who knows, but

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Speaker 3: it seemed super early, dark cold. And then he would

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Speaker 3: wrap us up inside and they would take us and

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Speaker 3: carry us to the car. We leave you in the back,

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Speaker 3: leave sleeping. That was also in the days when you

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Speaker 3: didn't need to buckle your kids in the backseat. And

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Speaker 3: then he would take my mom and I remember I

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Speaker 3: would get up and I would look out and there

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Speaker 3: was fog over there by the by the La River

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Speaker 3: when you would go over like First Street or one

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Speaker 3: of those bridges in La and Uh, and I remember like, wow,

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Speaker 3: this is weird. It's like when you see those old

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Speaker 3: movies and like Casablanca and there's this fog going behind

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Speaker 3: its dark.

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Speaker 2: It was like that.

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Speaker 3: But it was early morning, and and she was a

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Speaker 3: sharp dresser, you know, I remember looking sharp. That's one

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Speaker 3: of my first memories. But it's not until he's seven, right.

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Speaker 3: She was already sick then, and very sick, and he

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Speaker 3: didn't know, and she was just tired. She thought it

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Speaker 3: was just because of her work whatever. And she had

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Speaker 3: to take a physical. That's when the doctor was like,

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Speaker 3: oh shit, something's wrong. And then she was in and

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Speaker 3: out of the hospital like our life was just gone.

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Speaker 3: What it's just it was topsy turvy after she got sick.

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Speaker 3: I remember once I visited her, and I hated that hospital.

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Speaker 3: I had the smell. I hated being there. I hated

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Speaker 3: her shuffling over to us and her chunk laws and

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Speaker 3: her little you know, the hospital dressing they had. I

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Speaker 3: hated her smell of spongebat. I hated it all the

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Speaker 3: bee being all that stuff. Man, it brings back crazy

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Speaker 3: feelings of helplessness. Remember when she was in junior High,

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Speaker 3: she had been voted, you know, tower Queen of Griffith

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Speaker 3: Junior High. She was beautiful when she got sick. The

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Speaker 3: medications that they gave her made her look like she

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Speaker 3: was nine months pregnant. But she also got really skinny

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Speaker 3: and gaunt everywhere else, and she lost the body in

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Speaker 3: her hair. She got dark circles under her eyes, and

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Speaker 3: you know, she could barely move. She kind of shuffled

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Speaker 3: when she was home. She was feeble. She was so

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Speaker 3: drugged up. Her back. I would scratch her back sometimes.

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Speaker 3: She loved to scratch her back. And I stayed home

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Speaker 3: and I was sick of a lot. I was a

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Speaker 3: sickly boy. So I got to spend time with my

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Speaker 3: mom and I would scratch her back and I would

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Speaker 3: go I had this. I knew the pattern of her

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00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 3: back that I get scratched. Because I was I would

302
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 3: scratch her back. I would come across this rough skin.

303
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Speaker 3: I realized, Okay, I'm going into the little volcano head.

304
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Speaker 2: Of the boat. Bomb the boil.

305
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Speaker 3: Let me move around it. And I would just find

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Speaker 3: the pattern and scratch her back, and she loved that

307
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 3: on her wrists, the vein was raised on the wrist

308
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 3: because they were constantly putting needles into it so that

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Speaker 3: it almost looked like you could see you could see

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Speaker 3: the blood flowing through it. It was really creepy. And

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00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 3: then her mind left her. Periodically, it would leave her,

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Speaker 3: and in dramatic ways. So one day we came home,

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Speaker 3: you know, like we always did. Mothers still in the

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Speaker 3: hospital that day. So Thursday, but we're outside playing basketball,

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Speaker 3: me and my brother Paul, my cart some of the

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Speaker 3: other fellas, and I get called in to my grandma's Hey, man,

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Speaker 3: come on up, I come on up. But I knew

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00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 3: something was strange because there's people in the house, all

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Speaker 3: dressed up, people from church, family people, and this doesn't

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Speaker 3: happen during the week. A week night, Thursday night. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on. I have no clue. Really,

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Speaker 3: I'm a clueless nine year old boy. This is what

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00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 3: I was. And my dad comes in and everybody moves

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Speaker 3: towards my dad and there's this like somber hugs whatever,

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Speaker 3: and nobody's trying to reveal to us what's going on.

326
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Speaker 3: Yet we're just dopey boys our life about to intersect

327
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,359
Speaker 3: with Chance like a motherfucker, and he comes. He gets us,

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Speaker 3: He walks in the room. We sit down on my

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Speaker 3: grandma's bed, and then he tells us that, you know,

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Speaker 3: my mom's you know, I see her again. She she died,

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Speaker 3: she's in heaven, and yeah, it breaks it to us

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Speaker 3: that she's dead and it's just us. And I remember

333
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 3: thinking that I was gonna be strong for some reason.

334
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 3: I felt like I need, I need to be strong

335
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Speaker 3: for this. And I tell my dad that I'm not

336
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Speaker 3: going to cry, So don't worry, I'm not gonna cry.

337
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,239
Speaker 3: I'm strong, gonna be strong. He goes, no, you know

338
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 3: you need to cry. You know, men cry, He says,

339
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,199
Speaker 3: you know, And then you went their little list. George

340
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:13,120
Speaker 3: Washington cried, Moses cried, Abram Lincoln cried like, wella shit,

341
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,440
Speaker 3: all right. I said, yeah, you know, King David cry,

342
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 3: you can cry. And so after he lays down this

343
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,200
Speaker 3: list a bunch of cry babies, I feel like I'll cry.

344
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 3: So I cry and then it comes. You know, it's heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy,

345
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,959
Speaker 3: and then Paul's crying, my Dad's crying, And it was

346
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Speaker 3: actually one of the best moments of my life in

347
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,959
Speaker 3: that the feeling you get when my dad leaned forward

348
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 3: and pulled us into him and it was just us

349
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 3: and we're all crying, and we just become this one

350
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 3: spasm of anguish and pain and and there's this unity

351
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 3: of our grief around the same thing. And it's one

352
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 3: of the most beautiful moments I've ever had my dad,

353
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:13,159
Speaker 3: because around this morbidity, the death of my mother is

354
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 3: also one of the most erotic feelings that you have.

355
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Speaker 3: But I erotic, I don't mean sexual erotic. I just

356
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 3: mean feeling like just all this emotion and all this

357
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 3: body chemical stuff going on. You're crying and you feel

358
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 3: near to this people. You're literally hugging and touching and

359
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 3: crying and shedding tears and kissing each other. It's a

360
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 3: moment of unity. It was like a for brief moment,

361
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Speaker 3: all the pain that we've been struggling with is she's gone.

362
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Speaker 3: There's relief in that moment, and we had just cried

363
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 3: our eyes and our heart out and it's huh and

364
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,639
Speaker 3: he gives us to come and he says here, and

365
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,919
Speaker 3: we're all like he's giving It is like breaking breads.

366
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 3: It fucking it's our thing. Right, So now we got

367
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 3: a physical thing that we can all physically do together

368
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: for a little ritual here, and he says, we're gonna

369
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 3: be fine. We're gonna do this. We got this, we got.

370
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Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Part three, Mama's gone. Do you

371
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Speaker 2: remember the first time your dad hit you?

372
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Speaker 3: No? I man, I just feel like it was always

373
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 3: hitting me. I just it was Wow. It's like asking

374
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 3: a fish to just the properties of water, right. I

375
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 3: don't know where he knows that. It's like I was

376
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 3: always I was always getting hat there was a moment.

377
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 3: For example, my mother had to have been ill at

378
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 3: this time, and I had to memorize my multiplication tables.

379
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 3: And my dad would do this thing where he wanted

380
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Speaker 3: us to be the smartest kids in the class because

381
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: we were scholarship kids and we were the brown kids.

382
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 3: He wanted us to be better and smarter than the

383
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 3: other kids. So sometimes he would make us do things

384
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 3: that we weren't yet learning. So like, for example, multiplication tables,

385
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 3: I hadn't got there yet, but he wanted me to

386
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 3: know them, and I had to memorize all one hundred

387
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 3: and forty four you know, one timeands one, all the

388
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 3: way to twelve times twelve one forty four, and he

389
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 3: wanted to learn me to learn like in a day

390
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 3: or whatever. He comes home and uh and test me,

391
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 3: and he tells me for everyone I miss, I'm gonna

392
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: get two spankings. It's like he wanted perfection because he

393
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 3: felt if I didn't get it right then that man

394
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 3: I was lazy. That man I was being on discipline,

395
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 3: which means I was also being refractory. I was just,

396
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 3: you know, rebellious kid for not learning. I missed five

397
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 3: you know, the five year always going to miss nine times?

398
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 3: He a times. There's like there's someone always get me right.

399
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 3: I just kind of figure them out. And then he's

400
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: going to hit me ten times with the belt, and

401
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 3: my mom, you know it cries out, no, I don't

402
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: hit it right. You know, he didn't do bad man.

403
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 3: It's one hundred and forty four equations, and he does

404
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 3: this crazy thing. Man never forget. He puts the belt

405
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 3: in her hand and says, you hit him then, and

406
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: he bullies her in and hitting me. She's crying while

407
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 3: she's hitting me, torturing her, sadistic and she hits me

408
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 3: so feebly because she doesn't want to hurt me that

409
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 3: he says, you didn't make him cry, and I was

410
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: a fool not to cry out because it didn't hurt.

411
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 3: He needed to hear me cry and the elaborate pain,

412
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 3: and I wasn't clear he wasn't doing that with my

413
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 3: mom saying so like, yeah, my dad would get demented.

414
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 3: It was about proving who's the boss and all this

415
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 3: other kind of sadistic bullshit in there, and he would

416
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: throw he would throw all that in the mix. And

417
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 3: then yeah, stuff like that happened now. We were little,

418
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: so it wasn't like he was he didn't have to

419
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 3: do things he would later have to do, you know,

420
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: kick us and use weapons on us. But when we

421
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 3: were little, that little, he just would whack us with

422
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 3: about you.

423
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: Know, is there the first time you remember like crossing

424
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: a line like this was different. What happened just now

425
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 2: is different than just regular stuff.

426
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. When I when I got suspended for a week,

427
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 3: that beating was so bad I couldn't go to school

428
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: even after the period of time was up for me

429
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: to go back because he found out late in the

430
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: week that about it. So I was supposed to go

431
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: back like the day, next day or two days later.

432
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 3: I couldn't go back for three or four days because

433
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 3: the welts were so bad. I mean, Brenda would not

434
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: let me go to school.

435
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: Brenda, your stepmom.

436
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 3: She felt that they would they would send me, and

437
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: that would get him in trouble. You know, I had

438
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 3: crossed the line with him, had deceived him for almost

439
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 3: an entire week that they were going to work. I mean,

440
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: the deception had been so so bad. I think he

441
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 3: really wanted to stop me in my tracks. But I

442
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: was so far gone already. You know, that was a

443
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 3: vicious beauting. You know, once I came home and he

444
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 3: was I had been walking home from school and I

445
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 3: got in a fight with this one guy. We got

446
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: an argument with this one guy, and he and his boys.

447
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: They're like, hey, man, you got fight him. We gotta

448
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: find her. I'll fight you. You know, that's Mexican honor, me

449
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 3: against you. Let's do it. Let's sling our dogs. And

450
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 3: so we got to find the right place so to

451
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: do it, so nobody, you know, nobody will jump in.

452
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 3: I say, all right, so dopey me. They're like, hey,

453
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: but you got a nice sweater on, man, take it off.

454
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: And it was a nice sweater. My stepmother Brenda used

455
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: to get us some great sweaters. It's kind of a

456
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 3: little argu out thing across the front, kick ass sweater.

457
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: And I'm like, you know what these are gentlemen, man,

458
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 3: they don't want to ruin my sweat. I get it.

459
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: That's actually cool.

460
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: It's very courtly.

461
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 3: I felt like. So I go to pull my sweater

462
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 3: and then I'll throw them jump the shit out of me.

463
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: They baby, and I like, I'm just fucked. I've got

464
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: my sweater. I can't fuck up, and I can't throw

465
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: any bunches they're hold either, started dragging me around, just

466
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 3: kicking bunch. I just fall to the ground and get

467
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 3: the ship beat out of me, and uh break my

468
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 3: glasses right in the middle, right, crack it right in

469
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 3: the middle. So I go walk home. I want to

470
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 3: beat up. Oh my my sweaters over to just throw

471
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: up right and out of my glass are broken. So

472
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: I walk in and my dad's staying the Bible, getting

473
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: ready to you know, teach and stuff like that. And

474
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 3: he said, what happened is I got jumped and I

475
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 3: show my glass. He's so mad. He walks over, slaps me, says, uh,

476
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 3: you know you gotta get it. You gotta go fight

477
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: these guys. We gotta find him and you're gonna fight

478
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 3: on one by one and essentially like you're too much

479
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 3: of a sishy. You got to recover your manhood. This

480
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 3: is bullshit. So he puts me in the calm, like

481
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: what the fucks Kennedy's do to that? They just tax

482
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: my ass man, and they did it easy. But I

483
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 3: have to do it man. I mean, dad's teaching me

484
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: a very valuable lesson that will haunt his ass later.

485
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: Just if you get sized up as being weak, you

486
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 3: better be willing to go overboard and actually make a

487
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: statement later. You cannot stay weak. That idea of me

488
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 3: being a weak kid. He's not going to tolerate that shit.

489
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: I gotta learn payback. We start driving around. He tell me,

490
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: see some kids. I'm trying to slink in my seat

491
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: front seat. I can't and he says, hey, is that

492
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: them there. I put my glasses together and hold them

493
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 3: up to my face like no, and he's like he's mad.

494
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: He's mad at me. I'm just I'm a walking badge

495
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: of weakness to him. To him, it's like you you shame.

496
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: The Joeloya name he's not mad at the kids who

497
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: beat you. He's mad at me.

498
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I right there next to him is all the

499
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: evidence that he's a fucked up father because he's creating

500
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 3: such a sissy boy, and he's not gonna have that.

501
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: He's at least going to be able to say to

502
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: the people, my son went back and tried to clean

503
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: it up. And even if I get beat, at least

504
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 3: I try to clean it up.

505
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: So you're and your dad, did you ever find the guys?

506
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: So we do fighting find them walking out of a

507
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: liquor star? Is that them? And I put my glass together? No,

508
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: And you know, if I gets whacked across the face

509
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: and he drives home pissed, pissed, he's just so mad

510
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 3: that if someone's a sissy And my dad had been

511
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: this little gang kid who had converted to God, but

512
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: he didn't know how to control his temper.

513
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: Did your dad ever apologize? Did ever say he was sorry?

514
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: Said he sorry all the time, all the time.

515
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: And he would go into shame with spirals and he

516
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: would cry, and oh, so we were like, we're sorry,

517
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: we accepted, poety, we love you, dad, And it was

518
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 3: all that, And I think that that's eventually what led

519
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: me to like shut me down as disillusionment because you

520
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: have all this hope, You're like, I'll never do it again. God,

521
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: but we would all get our knees and pray, and

522
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 3: God hear the woms of that. It's like, hmm, fucking worthless, Joe.

523
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: I mean all this just sounds awful. I mean, you're

524
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: a kid. How did he not just like fold?

525
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what people don't understand. When you go

526
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: inward like that, you go into darkness, gets real dark

527
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: down there. That's where you get your most power. So

528
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: as my dad was beating me and I was taking

529
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: each blow, there's a different power. There's a different energy

530
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: in the shadows that builds up inside of you, the animosity,

531
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: the negativity, that stuff. It crackles differently, It changes the

532
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: molecules differently. Yeah, rearranges you and gives you power. And

533
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: I was getting stronger. I was not getting weaker. I

534
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: was getting demented with a very powerful rage. And that's

535
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: what eventually would come out.

536
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: You are listening to The Burden season four, Get the

537
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: Money and Run. The Burden is produced by Orbit Media.

538
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: Get the Money and Run is produced by Western Sound

539
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: and a cast Studio. Next up, stay tuned for episode two,

540
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: Who's Your Daddy?

541
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Remember to hear all episodes all at

542
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: once and ad free. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on

543
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. It's worth it. You'll find other gripping true

544
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: crime series there also ad free. If you want to

545
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: hear Ben talk about this episode, check out the teaser

546
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: It's in the Burden feed. Joe Loyer has agreed to

547
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: answer our questions, so please send yours to info at

548
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: Orbitmedia dot fm, or leave them in the comments on

549
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: Spotify or Apple. Thank you,