WEBVTT - TOM's Talks | Joey Crawford (Vote 76 Week) 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.640 This podcast is part of the seventy Sixers podcast network 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.080 search seventy sixers podcast wherever you get your pods our 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.240 this edition of Tom's Talks, we touch based with former 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:16.040 NBA referee Joey Crawford. A Delaware County, PA native, Crawford 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.479 wound up working over twenty five hundred NBA games in 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.000 addition to three hundred and seventy four playoff games, including 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.480 fifty in the finals over a thirty nine year career. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:28.960 Crawford is now working with the league. They helped to 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.479 develop the NBA's younger officials. But what led me to 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.519 joe Crawford at this point in time is his involvement 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.080 and Get out the Vote initiative. Crawford created a video 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:44.400 involving several Philadelphia area basketball folks. Here's my conversation with 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:50.199 Joey Crawford. Welcome once again to an edition of Tom's Talks, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.400 and we're joined by former NBA referee Joey Crawford. And 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.360 this is thrown around a lot, but a truly great 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.520 guy who goes beyond a man that ran up and 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.000 not a for nearly forty years with the whistle and Joe, 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:06.679 thank you so much. For joining us here today. Thank 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.880 you for having me. Tom. It's a joy. I love 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.840 talking about our sport well. And we rekindled in recent 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.559 weeks and you got involved with like to put out 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.880 a message about voting, and you got guys like myself 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.959 and people in and around the Philadelphia basketball community to 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.960 make a video. And it was very simple to put 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.679 out the word if you will vote? What was the 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:38.520 genesis behind that? Last year, I was at a function 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.720 with Senator Anthony Williams, who's an awesome guy. Just it's 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.400 like the second time I met him. But my real 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.279 good friend Moe Howard, who's was a tremendous Philly player, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.160 played at Maryland, played now or Lake for a couple 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.320 of years with New Orleans Jazz, I think at that 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.760 time and Cleveland Will and I reft MO when the 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.920 old Baker League. Philly. Mo and I are really good friends. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.680 So I just you know, I wanted to do something 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.880 for the community rather than just throw money at something, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.200 you know, people a hunter something. I wanted to try something. 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.800 So I called the Senator and I asked the Senator 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.959 what I could do to help to get people to vote. 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.520 And my initial my initial thought and this was in 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:32.160 conjunction with with moh was to get buses and little 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:37.760 vans and run them from community centers to voting polls 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:42.799 wherever churches. And that's what the Senator came up with 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:49.040 and his legal representative. But every every time that I 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.239 had a thought and I talked to mo Or, every 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:58.200 COVID was it was COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID. So then 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.840 I said, all right, how do What do I do? Here? Is? 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.239 I was watching the TV and I keep thinking, I'm 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:10.480 watching vote and I see people saying vote, vote. So 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.680 Bob Cooney's a real good friend of mine, is on 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.000 the Fanatic in the morning. It was a beat writer, 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.840 as you well know Tom, you know him for years. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.360 He helped me contacting people. So I started to call 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.440 people and asked them if they would just send me 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:33.560 a five second video saying vote and the community is 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.120 just awesome. I mean, I was cold. I didn't know. 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.960 I was completely out of my leg I didn't I 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.440 didn't know. I know, refereeing in the NBA, I don't 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.400 know that kind of stuff. And every person that I 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.240 went to it was just awesome, like yourself, Tom, can 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.600 you help me? Yeah? Video d Line and can you 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.320 help me? Yeah? Bang video? Don Stanley, can you help me? 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:01.600 Bang video? It was. It was unbelievable. Coaches in Philly, 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:07.760 Malik Rose, Gene Banks, Kevin the Gondhi, I mean all Philly. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.960 It was just fabulous. I had more fun doing it 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.000 and it wound up as you saw it. And I 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.120 tried to get legs on it where you know, trying 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.279 to put it on social media and things like that, 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.000 but again I'm out of my leg and I you know, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.960 so we tried and it's it's gotten some legs. A 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.159 lot of people have seen it. You know that the 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:30.760 same with you, a lot of people. You just have 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.359 that time and get it. You canting me? It was 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.800 all it was. It was just fun. It was. It 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:42.240 was really good and hopefully hopefully it has some type 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.800 of impact. And if you can get five people to 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:46.360 see it and and say, you know what I got, I 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.880 got a register I gotta that's awesome. It's awesome. Well, 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.640 by my platform, I got a little bit more than five, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.279 but it might have just spent tens of people's up 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.960 in terms of blood stop but listen. And it was. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.160 It was tremendous and the league, the NBA has done 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.719 a terrific job all of the franchises, many of which 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.719 have made their facilities available for voting places, some of 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.479 which have been accepted by local municipalities and others not. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:18.320 The NBA players associated has been incredible. Chris Ball and 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.440 the teams have done a great jobs in terms of 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.040 the players bringing awareness. But why does this mean so 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.040 much to you? Like? What made you take action in 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.599 this regard? That's a great question, Great question, Tom, I 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.599 don't know. I guess in my older age, I you know, 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.120 when you're you know, I've been in refereeing in the 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.640 NBA since I'm twenty five. Now when you retire and 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.680 now I'm working in management and work, you know, as 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:49.839 you well know are our life is a grind. And 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:55.080 I said, you know, I just wanted to do something 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.200 other than basketball related. I mean, I get it that 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.240 it was basketball related. I reached out to my basketball friends, 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:09.279 but this was deeper to me. I guess my my family. 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:14.400 I have. My family's a very mixed family. I have 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.640 two um African American son of laws and seven African 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:26.040 American grandchildren. And I just wanted to do a little more. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.560 And that was my way of giving back. You know, 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:37.159 I just I'm seeing what's happening in our country, and 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.640 I just I just think that this is a way 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:45.640 for for for me to help. Like I said, I'm 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.440 completely out of my when I when I stopped talking 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.400 about offensive fouls and three seconds and stuff, I get, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:56.200 I get a little shaky. It's not talking about voting 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:04.400 in politics and social justice is not um my expertise. 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.960 I mainly listen, but it was I just wanted to 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:10.880 give back a little bit him to be honest to 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.560 me that that's really the honest answer. And it's personal, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.080 and that's what makes it special. That is so cool. 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.400 And speaking of personal, and we'll get into your professional career. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.840 As you said, you reft for thirty nine years and 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.800 high school and the Old Eastern Basketball League, but it 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.920 was in your blood. Your father was a major league 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:35.720 umpire for again over twenty five years. Shag Crawford, your brother. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.840 What was it like growing up with a father who 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.560 had to be on the road and thus not at 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.400 home as much as a guy who drove into Center 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.280 City and worked nine to five. What was it like 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.120 to have your dad being up in the biggs again? 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.800 You you you did your homework. I M I thought 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:58.760 everybody did that. You know. My dad was a street guy, Tom. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.240 He was a guy came back from the war and 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:06.080 didn't He was an old minor league catcher before he 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.080 went away to to to the war. And then when 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.040 he came back he started watching. He was trying to 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.680 pick up a couple extra bucks. He was delivering ice 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.640 and delivering milk, you know, working in factory, you know, 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:26.800 two bedroom row home in Philly, and he was watching 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:28.840 the games. You know, back in the day. Baseball was 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.720 the thing, you know, back in the forties and the fifties, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.719 and he watched local leagues and he said, I can 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.440 do that, and he took up umpire and I think 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.760 he was he was making like a dollar dollar fifty 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.640 a game, you know, and it was totally different back then. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.520 There was only eight teams I think in the National League, 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.839 eight teams in the American League. And a guy by 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.800 the name of Goldie Graham. This is wild Goldie Graham, 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.600 who was a teacher and a coach at Roman Catholic 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:06.360 in Philadelphia, was the manager of Roman Catholic's baseball team. 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:12.680 And he saw my father did their games, and that 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.520 coach knew Johnny Stevens, who was an American League baseball umpire. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.280 He wrote him, you know you didn't have an email. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.280 He wrote him a letter. He said, I have this 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:27.280 kid named Shaggy Crawford ref umpiring my baseball games. This 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:34.000 kid was awesome. Sight unseen. Johnny Stevens sends a letter 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.240 to the New York Penn League, which is like the 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.240 bottom of the miners. Says, this kid in Phillies are 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.400 really a good up. They send my father a three 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:47.240 month contract. Now I just came along. It was, says 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.040 nineteen fifty one. He's four kids, and he goes like this, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.680 I'm out. He tells my wife. He tells my mom, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:59.800 I'm going. He left. So he nod, you know, and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.160 and you talked about that years later. I said, there 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.920 are you nuts? He goes, I did it for all 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.480 you guys. He said he was one of you know, 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.040 he was one of those guys, Tom And I said, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.160 how did you know you were gonna make it? And 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.400 he always referred to himself as the Shagger, you know, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.200 he was Shakrover. He goes, he said, the Shagger hasn't 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.720 I used to cry lamped at him, but he did. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.800 And he did have it, and that passion he had 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:33.840 he conveyed to me and my brother, who about officiating 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:41.000 sometimes to hire, you know, too much passion, and but 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.720 that's where it came from. It was it was all him, 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.880 you know, it was just watching him daily what he did. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.480 He was never at home. I didn't know him, I 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.160 honest it, God, Tom, I didn't know my dad because 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.720 when I was eighteen years old, I was out of 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.240 the house. I started referee, and I was in the 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.640 going to the Eastern League, doing high school game and 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.720 made the NBA at twenty five. I really didn't know 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.920 my dad. I didn't get to know him, unfortunately until 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.880 later in life. But he was a passionate man and 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.720 he about his profession and he conveyed it to his sons. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.440 Didn't you get to go sit in the umpire's room 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.720 while he was rubbing machine off the baseball with the 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.240 Delaware River mud? And when he came to Philadelphia and 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.559 go out of the field pre game and get around 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.840 the cage and those types of things that we think of, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.600 but somebody in baseball would get to do. Yes. When 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.680 he worked to Phillies, that was my time to be 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.600 with him. Ten eleven year old kid. I mean time 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:46.320 picture this, I mean I start crying even when I 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.960 started thinking about ten eleven year old kid. I meet 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.000 Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. I tell these stories to 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.880 people and they go, you who met him? I said, yeah, 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:58.520 I said, I was a kid, and my father was 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.120 a very professional guy. He didn't let you down on 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.720 the field. But if he saw them in the back 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.760 where the locker rooms were, and you couldn't ask them 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.320 for anything, you couldn't say, could I have mister Mays? 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.800 Could I have an autograph? Because he'd say, don't you 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.480 do that? So he would call you over and say, 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.920 come on over and meet mister Mays. But can you imagine, Tom, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:25.400 can you imagine? And that that was the great part 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.520 about it. And then two days later you didn't see 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:32.480 him for two months, three months, whatever it was. We'll 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.600 have more of my conversation with Joey Crawford after this. 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.960 In this time of social distancing, Novacare Rehabilitation is offering 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.160 physical therapy from the comfort and safety of your home. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:49.000 Through their new tell A Rehab program. Novacare will virtually 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.280 bring their services to you so you may heal, build strength, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.080 and get back to the things you love tell a 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.480 rehab let you easily connect with one of Novacare's licensed 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.800 therapists through web based technology that is Hippo compliant. For 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:08.080 more information, visit novacare dot com. And now back to 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.200 my chat with Joey Crawford. Let's get into your career. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.199 So you start in the high school ranks right there 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.800 in the Philadelphia suburban area. You went to Cardinal O'Hara, 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.720 and how did you make the transition to get into 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.160 the Eastern and Eastern Basketball League, which was the predecessor 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.400 to the CBA and what we now know as the 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.160 G League, the development league for the NBA, and that began, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.800 you know, your baby steps, if you will, tour and 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:38.880 becoming an NBA referee. Yeah. Another great question I was 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.400 when my father used to take me to games, like 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.280 back in the day, which you guys will remember the 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.520 NBA had doubleheaders, so they have a doubleheader down in 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.840 Convention Hale. Father in the wintertime was driving an oil truck. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.120 But if he would get tickets, we go down. But 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.960 because he was an umpire, he would say, that's Mendy Rudolph, 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:07.000 that's Earl Strom, that's Richie Powers. I just kept watching them, 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.360 and I said, man, I like that because I knew 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.960 he would tell me. Joe. He had a huge respect 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.400 for the players because he knew how hard it was 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.760 to get to that level. So he said, Joe, you 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.640 can be you can only get get to be so good, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.040 you know, and you know, why don't you think about it? 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.000 So as I'm fifteen, man, I wanted to be an 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.640 NBA reth And that's a six sixth statement, but I 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.680 tell people that all the time. So I was eighteen 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.840 years old and I started. I started doing the kids games, 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.640 and I got into the Baker League in Philly, which 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.720 was a godsend, and that got me Sunny Hill gave 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.240 me some games, and then I got used to work 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.560 in pro players and I had a try out in 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.320 the Eastern League and I was in heaven. I was 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.760 in heaven. You're going to Allentown. It was a weekend league. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:08.600 It was Allentown, Scranton, Wilkes Barow, Hartford, Connecticut, and it 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.720 was just awesome. You know. You could call an offensive 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.480 foul like Mendy Rudolph Calden offensive now and you didn't 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.680 have to put your hand back there. You could call it, 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.920 you know, punch your fist down. They had threes back then. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.120 You called a three. You know in the Eastern League 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.680 they had a three before the NBA at it three. 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.000 And it was just I just loved the whole pro 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.880 and environment. And they scouted you. They would my scout 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.760 that scouted me. You him, wrote your schedule and you 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.040 send it to the NBA office. They only had like 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.600 ten people in the NBA office back then, and Sid 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.400 Borgia was my scalt and he would scout me and 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.920 he'd come to these places and watch me ref And 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.160 then when I was twenty five, the NBA brought me 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.200 in very well. You bring me to a subject area 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.800 that I was going to get it into. But let's 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.480 get into it now, because you just mentioned some of 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.360 those names and I grew up watching the NBA at 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.720 that time, but Mandy Rudolph and Earl Strom and Sidboard 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.720 Jokes and even Darryl Garrettson and you had it too, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.120 and that was the flare of the call. I mean, 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.120 your deal was with the traveling. You know, you would 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.240 do the motion almost like the flintstone steps and then 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.520 the walking and I get how the NBA and the 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.480 refereeing and the attention that you guys put into and 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.640 I actually want to delve into that because there's so 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.320 much anything for the referees, but not now, but just 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.880 that flare. And I get it too that the people 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.440 don't come to watch the refereeing, but now it's so 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.960 automated and there's all these signals and like I'm saying, 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.960 I'm not saying it's it's actually better, but there was 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.760 a flare that you know, people like, oh, this is 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.360 that one wheref it's like an umpire, it has a 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.920 certain strikeout call punch out. It pretty a little bit 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.600 of a fun dynamic to the mix. And that's that's 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.760 missing a little bit. Speak to that if you would, 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.679 I will to um. Oh. We gotta remember that. Back 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:17.000 then there was there were very few NBA teams and 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.720 there was only two refs. So what happened is you 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.240 would see Earl strom Moore, the fans. You would see 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:30.200 Mendy Rudolph the fans, Richie Powers, Jake O'Donnell, Darryl Garrettson, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.560 I could go on and all Joe Gush, you, Eddie Rush, 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.640 all these guys, Hubert Evans, they and you saw them 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.800 constantly and the fans got to know them and they 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:48.040 all did have their The mechanics taught back then, because 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.760 I came in at seventy seven, is completely different than 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.760 what we teach today today. We don't tell people not 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.199 to have some kind of some kind of flair. You 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.240 have to have personality because you have to be able 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.800 to interact with doc Rivers, you have to be able 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:09.720 to interact with Joel Embiid. You can't have a referee 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.320 that goes out there and has no personality. We teach 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:19.040 referees have conversation with referees what I excuse me with 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.560 players and coaches, But what happens is the younger ref 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.679 Because you know, being in the job that I have 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.800 today where I'm I'm doing a lot of teaching and 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.760 I get to a lot of arenas. Coaches and players 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:41.040 will talk about younger refs having no personality and they're arrogant, 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.399 and I try to tell them they're not arrogant, and 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.040 they do have personality. They're just young and they don't 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.080 know what to say. And they're told, hey, keep your 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:58.840 conversations to a minimum because really, younger refs nobody believes 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.879 what they said. They didn't believe what I did for 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.960 five years in this leag so but they get back 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.720 to your point, Earl Strom, and those guys were just accepted. 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.840 That's her. Oh, that's her, because I used to get 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.439 it at the end of Mike and I didn't like it, 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.520 to be honest with him. That's Crawford. He does that 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.239 all the time. He jacks that, Diana. That's Crawford. That's all. 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.160 But really and you get it and you laugh at it. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.800 But the younger people, Honest to God, Tom, I tell this, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:35.160 and nobody, nobody believes me. Our younger people that are 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:40.280 coming into this leg in the last ten years are 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.479 so are so good. These people have been looking at 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.920 referees on the internet and watching since they're ten eleven 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.000 years old, and they're getting they're good. The problem is 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.960 is that they're not known. We now have what we 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.520 have thirty teams. People are wor in sixty five games 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:06.560 to eighty two games. There's three referees per game. Sometimes 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.280 they don't they won't see a franchise maybe twice a season, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.280 so people don't get used to them. They don't they 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.280 don't know them, and and that's that's unfortunate because we 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.880 have a lot of talented young, young referees. You bring 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.440 up so much that I want to delve into, and 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:29.159 one is, as you say, talented and young and quality people. 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.320 I've known James Caper since I went to college at NORTHERNLA. 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.520 We actually played on the same Damperial basketball team. Yeah yeah. 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.879 Tom Washington and our buddy Mark Wonderlick referee our game 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:51.520 seven in the CBA Finals when Lacrosse played Rapid City. Anyway, 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.240 and those two guys obviously went on the long NBA careers. 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.040 Tom Washington is still in the NBA, and they're police 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.479 officers and guys and that others probably why they are 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.960 a refereeing good people. There's so many and as you say, 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:07.719 we don't get to know the referees, but there's a 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.760 lot of quality people, and that foundation lends itself to 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.960 be a successful professional in this case in the world 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.800 of officiaty. That as our PR people know when they're 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.359 doing a great job, they're doing a much better job. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:28.000 Let's go back. Daryl Garrettson didn't think and he was 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.320 our boss for a number of years, didn't think that 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:34.840 the referees should be out and that everybody should know 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.040 who they are. But the NBA as doing a much 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.560 better job of putting the people out there. And Kelly, listen, 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.240 these guys are just like you and I. They're really 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.760 good people and they are hard as you well know. 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:56.240 Another thing which is very interesting is that, like you said, 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.760 you came through that CBA. You knew Tommy Washington, you 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.360 knew Mark where all those guys were coming through there. 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.160 And the same thing with the Developmental League. Now most 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.320 of our people, not most of them, all of them 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.040 are coming in from there. So if the players and 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.760 the coaches are down in those minor leagues, that's why 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.719 baseball really doesn't have that big of a problem with 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.520 their umpires because all of them have come up together 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:26.720 through that through that system, what happens is a lot 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.520 of our players that come in to our league are drafted. 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.919 They don't go down to the g You see what 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.680 you're seeing what I'm saying, there's a big difference, Tom, 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.960 when you do things together and you're going through that 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.639 grind together. Now you have like when we were in 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.359 the Eastern League, Charlie Chris was an old time a 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.440 small guard and remember him, Tom from the Atlanta Hawks. Yep, yes, 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.720 And when he got into the league, the refs who 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.160 were hit down in the Eastern League was Pavetta May 0:22:55.359 --> 0:23:00.680 Jackie Eas. We all went, that's awesome, Charlie Chris got 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.800 in the NBA. You were happy for one another, do 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.800 you know what I mean? But our our system is 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:09.280 a little different because we have the college that we 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.560 get our players from college. They don't know Joe Crawford. 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:14.840 I tell this story all the time. It's a funny story, 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:21.280 Jamal Crawford. Joe Crawford. Jamal comes in from Michigan. It's 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:23.800 his first time I got. I mean, he doesn't know 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.440 me from Adam. He's in the layup line. He's got him. 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.120 He looks at me, I said, just before the game, 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.680 I said, what's happening? Because so he looks at me like, 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.600 what the hell's the matter with this guy? So I 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:40.800 snuck up to him when he was on the bench 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:42.760 during the first time that I said, listen, I wasn't 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:46.600 being disrespectful. I said, my name's Crawford. Your name's Crawford. 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.080 And I said it was a little like a little joke. Honestly, 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.960 got Tom. It took maybe five years. Every time I 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:57.399 walked out unto the court, Jamal Crawford go, what's happening 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:04.760 because you know so familiarity does breed, like you get 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.440 to know one another, you know, you respect one another, 0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:11.239 and that's what this is. Referee, player, referee, coaches, all 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.480 it's a respect. And everybody looks at me because I 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:17.040 always say it, said, look at us, Tom. You may say, 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:20.000 Joe Crawford just screwed the hell out of that. Paul, 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:22.560 It's okay, that's part of your job. You got to 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.159 say that when I'm not. I'm not holding anything against anybody. 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:28.760 You know, you have a conversation. Our our league is 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.360 a family. It really is a family. And I tell 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:33.000 people that all the time and they look at me. 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.399 You're just giving it the political crap, but it is, 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:41.080 it is. It's a family. I agree, and never more 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:45.600 than now with being done. Joe, when I hear you 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:48.119 talk about your father and kind of the break he 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.200