Speaker 1: This podcast is part of the seventy Sixers podcast network
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Speaker 1: this edition of Tom's Talks, we touch based with former
Speaker 1: NBA referee Joey Crawford. A Delaware County, PA native, Crawford
Speaker 1: wound up working over twenty five hundred NBA games in
Speaker 1: addition to three hundred and seventy four playoff games, including
Speaker 1: fifty in the finals over a thirty nine year career.
Speaker 1: Crawford is now working with the league. They helped to
Speaker 1: develop the NBA's younger officials. But what led me to
Speaker 1: joe Crawford at this point in time is his involvement
Speaker 1: and Get out the Vote initiative. Crawford created a video
Speaker 1: involving several Philadelphia area basketball folks. Here's my conversation with
Speaker 1: Joey Crawford. Welcome once again to an edition of Tom's Talks,
Speaker 1: and we're joined by former NBA referee Joey Crawford. And
Speaker 1: this is thrown around a lot, but a truly great
Speaker 1: guy who goes beyond a man that ran up and
Speaker 1: not a for nearly forty years with the whistle and Joe,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. For joining us here today. Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. Tom. It's a joy. I love
Speaker 1: talking about our sport well. And we rekindled in recent
Speaker 1: weeks and you got involved with like to put out
Speaker 1: a message about voting, and you got guys like myself
Speaker 1: and people in and around the Philadelphia basketball community to
Speaker 1: make a video. And it was very simple to put
Speaker 1: out the word if you will vote? What was the
Speaker 1: genesis behind that? Last year, I was at a function
Speaker 1: with Senator Anthony Williams, who's an awesome guy. Just it's
Speaker 1: like the second time I met him. But my real
Speaker 1: good friend Moe Howard, who's was a tremendous Philly player,
Speaker 1: played at Maryland, played now or Lake for a couple
Speaker 1: of years with New Orleans Jazz, I think at that
Speaker 1: time and Cleveland Will and I reft MO when the
Speaker 1: old Baker League. Philly. Mo and I are really good friends.
Speaker 1: So I just you know, I wanted to do something
Speaker 1: for the community rather than just throw money at something,
Speaker 1: you know, people a hunter something. I wanted to try something.
Speaker 1: So I called the Senator and I asked the Senator
Speaker 1: what I could do to help to get people to vote.
Speaker 1: And my initial my initial thought and this was in
Speaker 1: conjunction with with moh was to get buses and little
Speaker 1: vans and run them from community centers to voting polls
Speaker 1: wherever churches. And that's what the Senator came up with
Speaker 1: and his legal representative. But every every time that I
Speaker 1: had a thought and I talked to mo Or, every
Speaker 1: COVID was it was COVID, COVID, COVID, COVID. So then
Speaker 1: I said, all right, how do What do I do? Here? Is?
Speaker 1: I was watching the TV and I keep thinking, I'm
Speaker 1: watching vote and I see people saying vote, vote. So
Speaker 1: Bob Cooney's a real good friend of mine, is on
Speaker 1: the Fanatic in the morning. It was a beat writer,
Speaker 1: as you well know Tom, you know him for years.
Speaker 1: He helped me contacting people. So I started to call
Speaker 1: people and asked them if they would just send me
Speaker 1: a five second video saying vote and the community is
Speaker 1: just awesome. I mean, I was cold. I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I was completely out of my leg I didn't I
Speaker 1: didn't know. I know, refereeing in the NBA, I don't
Speaker 1: know that kind of stuff. And every person that I
Speaker 1: went to it was just awesome, like yourself, Tom, can
Speaker 1: you help me? Yeah? Video d Line and can you
Speaker 1: help me? Yeah? Bang video? Don Stanley, can you help me?
Speaker 1: Bang video? It was. It was unbelievable. Coaches in Philly,
Speaker 1: Malik Rose, Gene Banks, Kevin the Gondhi, I mean all Philly.
Speaker 1: It was just fabulous. I had more fun doing it
Speaker 1: and it wound up as you saw it. And I
Speaker 1: tried to get legs on it where you know, trying
Speaker 1: to put it on social media and things like that,
Speaker 1: but again I'm out of my leg and I you know,
Speaker 1: so we tried and it's it's gotten some legs. A
Speaker 1: lot of people have seen it. You know that the
Speaker 1: same with you, a lot of people. You just have
Speaker 1: that time and get it. You canting me? It was
Speaker 1: all it was. It was just fun. It was. It
Speaker 1: was really good and hopefully hopefully it has some type
Speaker 1: of impact. And if you can get five people to
Speaker 1: see it and and say, you know what I got, I
Speaker 1: got a register I gotta that's awesome. It's awesome. Well,
Speaker 1: by my platform, I got a little bit more than five,
Speaker 1: but it might have just spent tens of people's up
Speaker 1: in terms of blood stop but listen. And it was.
Speaker 1: It was tremendous and the league, the NBA has done
Speaker 1: a terrific job all of the franchises, many of which
Speaker 1: have made their facilities available for voting places, some of
Speaker 1: which have been accepted by local municipalities and others not.
Speaker 1: The NBA players associated has been incredible. Chris Ball and
Speaker 1: the teams have done a great jobs in terms of
Speaker 1: the players bringing awareness. But why does this mean so
Speaker 1: much to you? Like? What made you take action in
Speaker 1: this regard? That's a great question, Great question, Tom, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess in my older age, I you know,
Speaker 1: when you're you know, I've been in refereeing in the
Speaker 1: NBA since I'm twenty five. Now when you retire and
Speaker 1: now I'm working in management and work, you know, as
Speaker 1: you well know are our life is a grind. And
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I just wanted to do something
Speaker 1: other than basketball related. I mean, I get it that
Speaker 1: it was basketball related. I reached out to my basketball friends,
Speaker 1: but this was deeper to me. I guess my my family.
Speaker 1: I have. My family's a very mixed family. I have
Speaker 1: two um African American son of laws and seven African
Speaker 1: American grandchildren. And I just wanted to do a little more.
Speaker 1: And that was my way of giving back. You know,
Speaker 1: I just I'm seeing what's happening in our country, and
Speaker 1: I just I just think that this is a way
Speaker 1: for for for me to help. Like I said, I'm
Speaker 1: completely out of my when I when I stopped talking
Speaker 1: about offensive fouls and three seconds and stuff, I get,
Speaker 1: I get a little shaky. It's not talking about voting
Speaker 1: in politics and social justice is not um my expertise.
Speaker 1: I mainly listen, but it was I just wanted to
Speaker 1: give back a little bit him to be honest to
Speaker 1: me that that's really the honest answer. And it's personal,
Speaker 1: and that's what makes it special. That is so cool.
Speaker 1: And speaking of personal, and we'll get into your professional career.
Speaker 1: As you said, you reft for thirty nine years and
Speaker 1: high school and the Old Eastern Basketball League, but it
Speaker 1: was in your blood. Your father was a major league
Speaker 1: umpire for again over twenty five years. Shag Crawford, your brother.
Speaker 1: What was it like growing up with a father who
Speaker 1: had to be on the road and thus not at
Speaker 1: home as much as a guy who drove into Center
Speaker 1: City and worked nine to five. What was it like
Speaker 1: to have your dad being up in the biggs again?
Speaker 1: You you you did your homework. I M I thought
Speaker 1: everybody did that. You know. My dad was a street guy, Tom.
Speaker 1: He was a guy came back from the war and
Speaker 1: didn't He was an old minor league catcher before he
Speaker 1: went away to to to the war. And then when
Speaker 1: he came back he started watching. He was trying to
Speaker 1: pick up a couple extra bucks. He was delivering ice
Speaker 1: and delivering milk, you know, working in factory, you know,
Speaker 1: two bedroom row home in Philly, and he was watching
Speaker 1: the games. You know, back in the day. Baseball was
Speaker 1: the thing, you know, back in the forties and the fifties,
Speaker 1: and he watched local leagues and he said, I can
Speaker 1: do that, and he took up umpire and I think
Speaker 1: he was he was making like a dollar dollar fifty
Speaker 1: a game, you know, and it was totally different back then.
Speaker 1: There was only eight teams I think in the National League,
Speaker 1: eight teams in the American League. And a guy by
Speaker 1: the name of Goldie Graham. This is wild Goldie Graham,
Speaker 1: who was a teacher and a coach at Roman Catholic
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, was the manager of Roman Catholic's baseball team.
Speaker 1: And he saw my father did their games, and that
Speaker 1: coach knew Johnny Stevens, who was an American League baseball umpire.
Speaker 1: He wrote him, you know you didn't have an email.
Speaker 1: He wrote him a letter. He said, I have this
Speaker 1: kid named Shaggy Crawford ref umpiring my baseball games. This
Speaker 1: kid was awesome. Sight unseen. Johnny Stevens sends a letter
Speaker 1: to the New York Penn League, which is like the
Speaker 1: bottom of the miners. Says, this kid in Phillies are
Speaker 1: really a good up. They send my father a three
Speaker 1: month contract. Now I just came along. It was, says
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one. He's four kids, and he goes like this,
Speaker 1: I'm out. He tells my wife. He tells my mom,
Speaker 1: I'm going. He left. So he nod, you know, and
Speaker 1: and you talked about that years later. I said, there
Speaker 1: are you nuts? He goes, I did it for all
Speaker 1: you guys. He said he was one of you know,
Speaker 1: he was one of those guys, Tom And I said,
Speaker 1: how did you know you were gonna make it? And
Speaker 1: he always referred to himself as the Shagger, you know,
Speaker 1: he was Shakrover. He goes, he said, the Shagger hasn't
Speaker 1: I used to cry lamped at him, but he did.
Speaker 1: And he did have it, and that passion he had
Speaker 1: he conveyed to me and my brother, who about officiating
Speaker 1: sometimes to hire, you know, too much passion, and but
Speaker 1: that's where it came from. It was it was all him,
Speaker 1: you know, it was just watching him daily what he did.
Speaker 1: He was never at home. I didn't know him, I
Speaker 1: honest it, God, Tom, I didn't know my dad because
Speaker 1: when I was eighteen years old, I was out of
Speaker 1: the house. I started referee, and I was in the
Speaker 1: going to the Eastern League, doing high school game and
Speaker 1: made the NBA at twenty five. I really didn't know
Speaker 1: my dad. I didn't get to know him, unfortunately until
Speaker 1: later in life. But he was a passionate man and
Speaker 1: he about his profession and he conveyed it to his sons.
Speaker 1: Didn't you get to go sit in the umpire's room
Speaker 1: while he was rubbing machine off the baseball with the
Speaker 1: Delaware River mud? And when he came to Philadelphia and
Speaker 1: go out of the field pre game and get around
Speaker 1: the cage and those types of things that we think of,
Speaker 1: but somebody in baseball would get to do. Yes. When
Speaker 1: he worked to Phillies, that was my time to be
Speaker 1: with him. Ten eleven year old kid. I mean time
Speaker 1: picture this, I mean I start crying even when I
Speaker 1: started thinking about ten eleven year old kid. I meet
Speaker 1: Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. I tell these stories to
Speaker 1: people and they go, you who met him? I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I said, I was a kid, and my father was
Speaker 1: a very professional guy. He didn't let you down on
Speaker 1: the field. But if he saw them in the back
Speaker 1: where the locker rooms were, and you couldn't ask them
Speaker 1: for anything, you couldn't say, could I have mister Mays?
Speaker 1: Could I have an autograph? Because he'd say, don't you
Speaker 1: do that? So he would call you over and say,
Speaker 1: come on over and meet mister Mays. But can you imagine, Tom,
Speaker 1: can you imagine? And that that was the great part
Speaker 1: about it. And then two days later you didn't see
Speaker 1: him for two months, three months, whatever it was. We'll
Speaker 1: have more of my conversation with Joey Crawford after this.
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Speaker 1: my chat with Joey Crawford. Let's get into your career.
Speaker 1: So you start in the high school ranks right there
Speaker 1: in the Philadelphia suburban area. You went to Cardinal O'Hara,
Speaker 1: and how did you make the transition to get into
Speaker 1: the Eastern and Eastern Basketball League, which was the predecessor
Speaker 1: to the CBA and what we now know as the
Speaker 1: G League, the development league for the NBA, and that began,
Speaker 1: you know, your baby steps, if you will, tour and
Speaker 1: becoming an NBA referee. Yeah. Another great question I was
Speaker 1: when my father used to take me to games, like
Speaker 1: back in the day, which you guys will remember the
Speaker 1: NBA had doubleheaders, so they have a doubleheader down in
Speaker 1: Convention Hale. Father in the wintertime was driving an oil truck.
Speaker 1: But if he would get tickets, we go down. But
Speaker 1: because he was an umpire, he would say, that's Mendy Rudolph,
Speaker 1: that's Earl Strom, that's Richie Powers. I just kept watching them,
Speaker 1: and I said, man, I like that because I knew
Speaker 1: he would tell me. Joe. He had a huge respect
Speaker 1: for the players because he knew how hard it was
Speaker 1: to get to that level. So he said, Joe, you
Speaker 1: can be you can only get get to be so good,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, why don't you think about it?
Speaker 1: So as I'm fifteen, man, I wanted to be an
Speaker 1: NBA reth And that's a six sixth statement, but I
Speaker 1: tell people that all the time. So I was eighteen
Speaker 1: years old and I started. I started doing the kids games,
Speaker 1: and I got into the Baker League in Philly, which
Speaker 1: was a godsend, and that got me Sunny Hill gave
Speaker 1: me some games, and then I got used to work
Speaker 1: in pro players and I had a try out in
Speaker 1: the Eastern League and I was in heaven. I was
Speaker 1: in heaven. You're going to Allentown. It was a weekend league.
Speaker 1: It was Allentown, Scranton, Wilkes Barow, Hartford, Connecticut, and it
Speaker 1: was just awesome. You know. You could call an offensive
Speaker 1: foul like Mendy Rudolph Calden offensive now and you didn't
Speaker 1: have to put your hand back there. You could call it,
Speaker 1: you know, punch your fist down. They had threes back then.
Speaker 1: You called a three. You know in the Eastern League
Speaker 1: they had a three before the NBA at it three.
Speaker 1: And it was just I just loved the whole pro
Speaker 1: and environment. And they scouted you. They would my scout
Speaker 1: that scouted me. You him, wrote your schedule and you
Speaker 1: send it to the NBA office. They only had like
Speaker 1: ten people in the NBA office back then, and Sid
Speaker 1: Borgia was my scalt and he would scout me and
Speaker 1: he'd come to these places and watch me ref And
Speaker 1: then when I was twenty five, the NBA brought me
Speaker 1: in very well. You bring me to a subject area
Speaker 1: that I was going to get it into. But let's
Speaker 1: get into it now, because you just mentioned some of
Speaker 1: those names and I grew up watching the NBA at
Speaker 1: that time, but Mandy Rudolph and Earl Strom and Sidboard
Speaker 1: Jokes and even Darryl Garrettson and you had it too,
Speaker 1: and that was the flare of the call. I mean,
Speaker 1: your deal was with the traveling. You know, you would
Speaker 1: do the motion almost like the flintstone steps and then
Speaker 1: the walking and I get how the NBA and the
Speaker 1: refereeing and the attention that you guys put into and
Speaker 1: I actually want to delve into that because there's so
Speaker 1: much anything for the referees, but not now, but just
Speaker 1: that flare. And I get it too that the people
Speaker 1: don't come to watch the refereeing, but now it's so
Speaker 1: automated and there's all these signals and like I'm saying,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's it's actually better, but there was
Speaker 1: a flare that you know, people like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: that one wheref it's like an umpire, it has a
Speaker 1: certain strikeout call punch out. It pretty a little bit
Speaker 1: of a fun dynamic to the mix. And that's that's
Speaker 1: missing a little bit. Speak to that if you would,
Speaker 1: I will to um. Oh. We gotta remember that. Back
Speaker 1: then there was there were very few NBA teams and
Speaker 1: there was only two refs. So what happened is you
Speaker 1: would see Earl strom Moore, the fans. You would see
Speaker 1: Mendy Rudolph the fans, Richie Powers, Jake O'Donnell, Darryl Garrettson,
Speaker 1: I could go on and all Joe Gush, you, Eddie Rush,
Speaker 1: all these guys, Hubert Evans, they and you saw them
Speaker 1: constantly and the fans got to know them and they
Speaker 1: all did have their The mechanics taught back then, because
Speaker 1: I came in at seventy seven, is completely different than
Speaker 1: what we teach today today. We don't tell people not
Speaker 1: to have some kind of some kind of flair. You
Speaker 1: have to have personality because you have to be able
Speaker 1: to interact with doc Rivers, you have to be able
Speaker 1: to interact with Joel Embiid. You can't have a referee
Speaker 1: that goes out there and has no personality. We teach
Speaker 1: referees have conversation with referees what I excuse me with
Speaker 1: players and coaches, But what happens is the younger ref
Speaker 1: Because you know, being in the job that I have
Speaker 1: today where I'm I'm doing a lot of teaching and
Speaker 1: I get to a lot of arenas. Coaches and players
Speaker 1: will talk about younger refs having no personality and they're arrogant,
Speaker 1: and I try to tell them they're not arrogant, and
Speaker 1: they do have personality. They're just young and they don't
Speaker 1: know what to say. And they're told, hey, keep your
Speaker 1: conversations to a minimum because really, younger refs nobody believes
Speaker 1: what they said. They didn't believe what I did for
Speaker 1: five years in this leag so but they get back
Speaker 1: to your point, Earl Strom, and those guys were just accepted.
Speaker 1: That's her. Oh, that's her, because I used to get
Speaker 1: it at the end of Mike and I didn't like it,
Speaker 1: to be honest with him. That's Crawford. He does that
Speaker 1: all the time. He jacks that, Diana. That's Crawford. That's all.
Speaker 1: But really and you get it and you laugh at it.
Speaker 1: But the younger people, Honest to God, Tom, I tell this,
Speaker 1: and nobody, nobody believes me. Our younger people that are
Speaker 1: coming into this leg in the last ten years are
Speaker 1: so are so good. These people have been looking at
Speaker 1: referees on the internet and watching since they're ten eleven
Speaker 1: years old, and they're getting they're good. The problem is
Speaker 1: is that they're not known. We now have what we
Speaker 1: have thirty teams. People are wor in sixty five games
Speaker 1: to eighty two games. There's three referees per game. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they don't they won't see a franchise maybe twice a season,
Speaker 1: so people don't get used to them. They don't they
Speaker 1: don't know them, and and that's that's unfortunate because we
Speaker 1: have a lot of talented young, young referees. You bring
Speaker 1: up so much that I want to delve into, and
Speaker 1: one is, as you say, talented and young and quality people.
Speaker 1: I've known James Caper since I went to college at NORTHERNLA.
Speaker 1: We actually played on the same Damperial basketball team. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Tom Washington and our buddy Mark Wonderlick referee our game
Speaker 1: seven in the CBA Finals when Lacrosse played Rapid City. Anyway,
Speaker 1: and those two guys obviously went on the long NBA careers.
Speaker 1: Tom Washington is still in the NBA, and they're police
Speaker 1: officers and guys and that others probably why they are
Speaker 1: a refereeing good people. There's so many and as you say,
Speaker 1: we don't get to know the referees, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of quality people, and that foundation lends itself to
Speaker 1: be a successful professional in this case in the world
Speaker 1: of officiaty. That as our PR people know when they're
Speaker 1: doing a great job, they're doing a much better job.
Speaker 1: Let's go back. Daryl Garrettson didn't think and he was
Speaker 1: our boss for a number of years, didn't think that
Speaker 1: the referees should be out and that everybody should know
Speaker 1: who they are. But the NBA as doing a much
Speaker 1: better job of putting the people out there. And Kelly, listen,
Speaker 1: these guys are just like you and I. They're really
Speaker 1: good people and they are hard as you well know.
Speaker 1: Another thing which is very interesting is that, like you said,
Speaker 1: you came through that CBA. You knew Tommy Washington, you
Speaker 1: knew Mark where all those guys were coming through there.
Speaker 1: And the same thing with the Developmental League. Now most
Speaker 1: of our people, not most of them, all of them
Speaker 1: are coming in from there. So if the players and
Speaker 1: the coaches are down in those minor leagues, that's why
Speaker 1: baseball really doesn't have that big of a problem with
Speaker 1: their umpires because all of them have come up together
Speaker 1: through that through that system, what happens is a lot
Speaker 1: of our players that come in to our league are drafted.
Speaker 1: They don't go down to the g You see what
Speaker 1: you're seeing what I'm saying, there's a big difference, Tom,
Speaker 1: when you do things together and you're going through that
Speaker 1: grind together. Now you have like when we were in
Speaker 1: the Eastern League, Charlie Chris was an old time a
Speaker 1: small guard and remember him, Tom from the Atlanta Hawks. Yep, yes,
Speaker 1: And when he got into the league, the refs who
Speaker 1: were hit down in the Eastern League was Pavetta May
Speaker 1: Jackie Eas. We all went, that's awesome, Charlie Chris got
Speaker 1: in the NBA. You were happy for one another, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? But our our system is
Speaker 1: a little different because we have the college that we
Speaker 1: get our players from college. They don't know Joe Crawford.
Speaker 1: I tell this story all the time. It's a funny story,
Speaker 1: Jamal Crawford. Joe Crawford. Jamal comes in from Michigan. It's
Speaker 1: his first time I got. I mean, he doesn't know
Speaker 1: me from Adam. He's in the layup line. He's got him.
Speaker 1: He looks at me, I said, just before the game,
Speaker 1: I said, what's happening? Because so he looks at me like,
Speaker 1: what the hell's the matter with this guy? So I
Speaker 1: snuck up to him when he was on the bench
Speaker 1: during the first time that I said, listen, I wasn't
Speaker 1: being disrespectful. I said, my name's Crawford. Your name's Crawford.
Speaker 1: And I said it was a little like a little joke. Honestly,
Speaker 1: got Tom. It took maybe five years. Every time I
Speaker 1: walked out unto the court, Jamal Crawford go, what's happening
Speaker 1: because you know so familiarity does breed, like you get
Speaker 1: to know one another, you know, you respect one another,
Speaker 1: and that's what this is. Referee, player, referee, coaches, all
Speaker 1: it's a respect. And everybody looks at me because I
Speaker 1: always say it, said, look at us, Tom. You may say,
Speaker 1: Joe Crawford just screwed the hell out of that. Paul,
Speaker 1: It's okay, that's part of your job. You got to
Speaker 1: say that when I'm not. I'm not holding anything against anybody.
Speaker 1: You know, you have a conversation. Our our league is
Speaker 1: a family. It really is a family. And I tell
Speaker 1: people that all the time and they look at me.
Speaker 1: You're just giving it the political crap, but it is,
Speaker 1: it is. It's a family. I agree, and never more
Speaker 1: than now with being done. Joe, when I hear you
Speaker 1: talk about your father and kind of the break he
Speaker 1: got where you know, somebody like out of the blues
Speaker 1: you said, sent a letter and that began his professional
Speaker 1: unplaying career, it brings to mind how you've mentored and
Speaker 1: discovered referee specifically from our area of the Delaware Valley.
Speaker 1: Eddie Malloy, my Cameahan, Mark Wonderlick, I mean Mark if
Speaker 1: I if Mark's story is accurate, like you found him
Speaker 1: refereeing in the summer. If I'm not mistaken, I did
Speaker 1: one of the parks there over by Habit Town and helped,
Speaker 1: you know, and Mark, like you, with the knee injury,
Speaker 1: had to eventually get out. And these now with the
Speaker 1: referee program, sure we work together out how you know
Speaker 1: you helped be like a shepherd, if you will, a champion,
Speaker 1: a mentor for these young referees that have gone on
Speaker 1: to be tremendous NBA officials. You know, as thank you,
Speaker 1: Tom as a hell of a compliment. You know, I
Speaker 1: was a nineteen year old kid and I was working
Speaker 1: cyo basketball around the Philly area. I had a metal whistle.
Speaker 1: And who shows up at my game? Jacob'donald at our
Speaker 1: mother a good counsel out on Anchorster Avenue. I'm refereeing
Speaker 1: by myself. There's three people in the gym, and who
Speaker 1: walks into the gym but Jake O'Donnell, And he sat
Speaker 1: there for an hour and a half and watched me
Speaker 1: ref and that during timeouts talk to me about referee.
Speaker 1: And then at the end he gave me a whistle,
Speaker 1: a regular plastic whistle and you know, I get queasy
Speaker 1: about that just thinking about it. But that's what happens
Speaker 1: in Philly because somebody did it from me, somebody calls
Speaker 1: me up. I go watch them ref. I watched them
Speaker 1: ref and I know it's part of my job and
Speaker 1: I do it. But I watch refs. I don't know
Speaker 1: anything else. Tom, I don't know coach, and I don't
Speaker 1: know broadcasting. I don't know. I'm a ref. That's what
Speaker 1: I have and I love it and I want people
Speaker 1: to get better. Now where it gets a little crazy
Speaker 1: is is that people always want to know if my
Speaker 1: an NBA ref and I flat out tell them no. Now,
Speaker 1: some people will say, well, Joe Crawford, it's political, he
Speaker 1: got this. I am not. I have told her hundreds
Speaker 1: of people, you are not an NBA ref. Duke Callahan
Speaker 1: isn't It was an NBA ref. Mark Wonderlick was an
Speaker 1: NBA ref. Eddie mulloy is an NBA ref. That's what
Speaker 1: I am. It's been my life. But I'm consumed with referee.
Speaker 1: I'm consumed with it. I can't get it. I remember
Speaker 1: Doug Collins making this statement and I sent, wow, he
Speaker 1: doesn't understand how similar we are when he was coaching.
Speaker 1: I don't know what team. He said. When he goes
Speaker 1: out to dinner, he's sitting there with his wife, he's
Speaker 1: thinking about please and my wife always says to me,
Speaker 1: she said, we're going to talk about referee and again,
Speaker 1: and I always go, yes, yes, we are. I don't
Speaker 1: know anything else, but you know, you got me time
Speaker 1: you got It's it's a it's a curse, but it's
Speaker 1: it's a it's been so good to me that I
Speaker 1: can't get it out of my system. Well, you're more
Speaker 1: than just the referee. You're a father and a grandfather.
Speaker 1: Your daughters, Amy, Meghan and Aaron. I'm gonna as soon
Speaker 1: played basketball because and again we know a lot of
Speaker 1: the same people in Delaware County. And you've done so
Speaker 1: much for girls basketball, women's basketball, and for those that
Speaker 1: don't know, the Philadelphia area in the history of women's
Speaker 1: basketball is just second to none in the entire country. Incredible.
Speaker 1: You've got a lot for girls basketball. Talk about that,
Speaker 1: your involvement helping you advance the sport and help young
Speaker 1: women in our sport of basketball. You know, I had
Speaker 1: I was just like all the other males back in
Speaker 1: the Day about, you know, men's basketball, and I can't
Speaker 1: watch women's basketball. But then my kids started playing third
Speaker 1: and fourth, fifth and sixth grand so I got involved
Speaker 1: and I just started going to the games obviously and
Speaker 1: asking players and coaches what about this drill? That drill.
Speaker 1: So there's a woman's aau organization called the Comments and
Speaker 1: it's and it's really evolved into a big deal, and
Speaker 1: I got involved. My one daughter played, who's married. My
Speaker 1: one son in law is the assistant woman's coach at
Speaker 1: LaSalle and that's my one daughter, Meghan is married to
Speaker 1: Chris Day. They have five children, and Megan was the
Speaker 1: first one that got involved and they played, and then
Speaker 1: they went to Ohio, which was a hotbed. I mean,
Speaker 1: what was better than Cardinal Ohio women's basketball? You gotta
Speaker 1: be kidding me? And I just liked it. So he
Speaker 1: started a league where we lived in Havertown and the
Speaker 1: kids all played. And there was another leg that our
Speaker 1: good friend Terry McNichol and his great wife Mary Beth
Speaker 1: had the Billy Lake Als Lake and got involved, and
Speaker 1: that's what it was. It was just getting involved and
Speaker 1: I found out basketball's basketball, it really is. It's awesome
Speaker 1: and all the people that I've gotten to get, you know,
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know one of my best friends in
Speaker 1: the world, Harry Peretta, the women's coach at Villanova, and
Speaker 1: it's just been, uh, it's just I just love it.
Speaker 1: To be real honest with you, I love it. I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to get in the last few summers
Speaker 1: as involved as I wanted to because the job, the
Speaker 1: job that I have now for the NBA there is
Speaker 1: you know, you go to Vegas, you're in youth over
Speaker 1: the summer lakes, so that's when the AAU stuff is
Speaker 1: really hot and heavy, and I haven't been able to
Speaker 1: do in the last three or four summers. But I
Speaker 1: love that game. I love the women's game. I really do.
Speaker 1: I really do. It's basketball. It's awesome. It's basketball, right
Speaker 1: to come a long way. I remember that from my
Speaker 1: time in the CBA. My first stint was in Iowa
Speaker 1: and they had that deal where they had six players
Speaker 1: and three run offense and three run defense and they
Speaker 1: would only be able to go to the mid court
Speaker 1: stripe and then they have to wait for the ball
Speaker 1: change tense and I want to say they were in skirts.
Speaker 1: I could be wrong about I did my wife played.
Speaker 1: My wife played for Cardinal Ire and she was like
Speaker 1: one of the last teams. When I said, I said, Mary,
Speaker 1: you have that skirt. Still you might look good in
Speaker 1: that skirt. And then the other thing was when I
Speaker 1: was in college and I played at what's now Bendington
Speaker 1: University in suburb in Chicago, just for two years, not
Speaker 1: much made of art and not talking about it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so but then this is kind of how I got
Speaker 1: into the media, if you well. I wrote for the
Speaker 1: student paper and ended of transferring to Northern Illinois a broadcaster.
Speaker 1: But for the student paper, I swear I think I
Speaker 1: got paid to three dollars and twenty five cents. And
Speaker 1: one of my jobs for the public relations department, which
Speaker 1: was then in the student paper, was to cover the
Speaker 1: women's game. And so I'd be, you know, take a
Speaker 1: shower from our practice and they'd have a game or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I watch it and no kidding, like all ten
Speaker 1: girls would be in the lane. We had one really
Speaker 1: good player, nobody was beyond their tippy toes, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh man, but clearly the game has really
Speaker 1: advance and the WS unbelievable. Like you, I love it
Speaker 1: large basketball and you know, I remember going back to
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six with the women's team in Atlanta and
Speaker 1: getting to know Dawn and all those women as they
Speaker 1: played the USA Basketball. So it's incredible. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a great game. I really really love it, really love. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well let's get into just a little bit about your
Speaker 1: NBA referee, and you still, I think hold the record
Speaker 1: for the most playoff games ever a shaded almost four
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty finals games thirty nine years. That's incredible.
Speaker 1: But so there's so many ways to go here. But
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, a lot, and one thing was
Speaker 1: we were in the medal lands and it was the
Speaker 1: New Jersey Nets and the Sixers, and so it brings
Speaker 1: up the larger issue of like when a coach wants
Speaker 1: to get thrown out, and you know, the average fan
Speaker 1: would be like what But in this case people don't remember.
Speaker 1: But John Caliperry was actually a Sixers assistant for a
Speaker 1: little while or getting back into college. And this would
Speaker 1: have been right after the Nets. Let Cal go and
Speaker 1: Larry and John went back all the way I believe
Speaker 1: the Kansas, so Cal takes a job on the Sixers bench,
Speaker 1: and the Sixers are pretty good and so this would
Speaker 1: have been in the nineties, I suppose, and Coach Brown.
Speaker 1: You actually worked the game, and you gave Coach Brown
Speaker 1: a technical early like it takes two to get tossed
Speaker 1: most of the time, so you got to get that
Speaker 1: out away. And I don't know if I'm spilling the
Speaker 1: beans talking out of school, but and I used to
Speaker 1: sit right there, and it was a younger official that
Speaker 1: you were working with at the time, and Coach Brown said,
Speaker 1: he sent, well, I tell you a strong official wouldn't
Speaker 1: make that call, and boop, you just insulted me. You're going.
Speaker 1: So I think it was what Coach Brown maybe wanted
Speaker 1: that night, whereas cal was coaching the Philadelphia sevent six
Speaker 1: years against the team down there or the nets that
Speaker 1: had just let them go. So you must know. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying you knew all about that, but you can tell.
Speaker 1: It's like in baseball when the manager wants to get run.
Speaker 1: How do you see that when you see this guy
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, what's going on here? And you
Speaker 1: end up having to whack them and get him out
Speaker 1: of there. But when you see that coming down the pipe, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's again you know what time I've done a lot
Speaker 1: of that's a tremendous question. It's never been asked to me.
Speaker 1: I think the coaches, especially guys like Larry, they know
Speaker 1: when they they go, they know, they know when they
Speaker 1: want to go, and a lot of times people get
Speaker 1: not angry. But people in our league sometimes don't think
Speaker 1: that referees should talk about pregame because they meet at
Speaker 1: eleven in the morning and then they in their locker
Speaker 1: room and they talk basketball. That's their job. They talk basketball,
Speaker 1: and you can tell them when that coach is angry
Speaker 1: coming off a losing streak. Guys aren't playing, they're tired,
Speaker 1: they're on a long road road trip, and you know,
Speaker 1: you know, all of us sudden it's like, where did
Speaker 1: that come from? Now? Why did that happen? And then
Speaker 1: you then it hits you, Oh my god. They're on
Speaker 1: a five they're on a five game trip. They lost
Speaker 1: four out of the five. There's where it came, you know,
Speaker 1: and you're thrown because that The coaches now think that way,
Speaker 1: but they want to get thrown. I tell this story
Speaker 1: all the time. Johnny Back God bless his soul, the
Speaker 1: old assistant coach in our league and Penn State head
Speaker 1: coach for him, wonderful, wonderful guy we have as him
Speaker 1: with referee we have we have an axiom that referees
Speaker 1: have about guys like Johnny Back who don't get tease
Speaker 1: jokers shoes the one that started and he says, you
Speaker 1: never make a good guy a bad guy. So as
Speaker 1: soon as you hit somebody that never gets teas, they
Speaker 1: usually get bad. You know. So Johnny bach Is I
Speaker 1: think he's coach in Chicago or Golden State at the time.
Speaker 1: He saunders on up to me in it during a
Speaker 1: time out and he says, Joe, throw me. I want
Speaker 1: to bring the ball back in. I said, you want
Speaker 1: to go, Johnny, you sure, and he goes, I want
Speaker 1: to go. I said, but I just can't make it up.
Speaker 1: John you gotta call me something. He says, I'll forgive you.
Speaker 1: He says, just like you know the Catholic Church. I'll
Speaker 1: give you an absolution. He says, no problem. So he starts,
Speaker 1: he calls me what he calls me. I whack him
Speaker 1: and I throw him. And there was he just was
Speaker 1: angry at his team, I guess, or maybe somebody told
Speaker 1: him that. He know he didn't get ejected that year.
Speaker 1: But there are so many different things that you know,
Speaker 1: we're going on in teams, but something will happen Tom
Speaker 1: and you'll look at that coach or that player and
Speaker 1: you go, that's coming from outer space. This player coach
Speaker 1: doesn't have that type of personality, you know, and you
Speaker 1: just do your job and you throw them out, you know.
Speaker 1: But sometimes coaches and players want to go, now, we're
Speaker 1: not going to the press. We're not going to the press.
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna I'm never gonna tell anybody Johnny Back wanted
Speaker 1: to get thrown. I'm not gonna do that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's gonna come out a couple of years later. Or
Speaker 1: John May even say, John May say, yeah, I told
Speaker 1: Joe to throw me in. Johnny was a renaissance man,
Speaker 1: a painter. It wasn't quality people the NBA. How about him.
Speaker 1: I was a war hero. I mean yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: he was just an awesome dude, awesome guy. And this
Speaker 1: is kind of jumping around and now getting back into
Speaker 1: your current role a little bit. And so many of
Speaker 1: you guys that have come off the floor are now
Speaker 1: in the shall we say, hierarchy of the NBA referee,
Speaker 1: like Minnie McCutcheon, like Jason Phillips, like Joe Borgia and
Speaker 1: Mark we mentioned earlier, Mark Wonderlick, and the focus and
Speaker 1: attention has never been more on the referees, the education
Speaker 1: and you guys have always had a camp, but these
Speaker 1: guys are so borough. You know, you'll see him with
Speaker 1: a notepad at center court and a player will come
Speaker 1: over and say, I don't know, you might have missed that.
Speaker 1: Take a look. And they'll look at video at halftime,
Speaker 1: and I know you guys go into the locker room,
Speaker 1: their referee lock room after the game. Sure, and you've
Speaker 1: broken the court down in quadrants and sections and there's acronyms,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I think that gets and I suppose with
Speaker 1: experience at eases a bit. But like I can remember
Speaker 1: in year's past and there's just so much you can
Speaker 1: almost see where a referee got brainlock because there was
Speaker 1: so many things to consider. But that's an aside in general.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so much information and you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, available especially with video now and how
Speaker 1: easy it is, but speak to that and like should
Speaker 1: it's come to in the NBA with the officiator. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's when I first came into the lake. You referee
Speaker 1: the way that the lead referee was. Back then it
Speaker 1: was a two man system. So if I didn't referee
Speaker 1: the way Daryl Garrettson wanted me to referee, he'd go
Speaker 1: off on me. If I didn't referee the next night
Speaker 1: with Richie Powers the way he refereed, he'd go off
Speaker 1: on me. I mean, go off and Earl Strong the
Speaker 1: same thing. They dy'd hollered you. They scream it was awful.
Speaker 1: So the system evolved, evolved. Excuse me, the system evolved.
Speaker 1: So now there's a system, and the wonderful thing about
Speaker 1: it is is that everybody is in We're all together now.
Speaker 1: It's we're all teaching the same thing from the w
Speaker 1: NBA to the g to the NBA, so everything is
Speaker 1: in concert. So by the time that referee gets to
Speaker 1: that NBA level, those mechanics and those things he's supposed
Speaker 1: to do are like second nature. Now, what's what changes
Speaker 1: that is in those five years of that younger referee
Speaker 1: is pressure and duress. You're not getting that same pressure
Speaker 1: and duress in the g You're not getting it. You're
Speaker 1: not getting it in Las Vegas, you're not getting it
Speaker 1: in Utah, you're not getting it. In the summer league.
Speaker 1: So in the NBA, we have to be able to
Speaker 1: hire that person. We believe has that that ten years
Speaker 1: you can look and go, you know what, five years
Speaker 1: from now, that kid is going to be awesome. Just
Speaker 1: the same thing they do with players. It's the same
Speaker 1: exact thing. And most of our referees are so good
Speaker 1: by the time they get here with mechanics and and
Speaker 1: things like that. It's no problem at all. It's just
Speaker 1: you know, getting comfortable, getting to be able to the crowds,
Speaker 1: the people that are players. You're dealing with grown men here. Now,
Speaker 1: you're dealing with grown men who are not going to
Speaker 1: just go. I couldn't believe it my first couple of
Speaker 1: years in the leaguetop. When I put my hand up
Speaker 1: for them to stop talking, they didn't stop talking. They
Speaker 1: kept coming, you know, and they didn't. They just kept coming.
Speaker 1: They weren't. That didn't stop anybody. So what you have
Speaker 1: to do is that experience level is huge for our
Speaker 1: younger people and and they're they're really good. Like I said,
Speaker 1: our younger people, I don't even know. Monty mc cutcheon
Speaker 1: is is a teacher. He's a teacher, and we are
Speaker 1: his assistant coach that's that's how it works. So we
Speaker 1: are all he's he's not a dictator, so we all
Speaker 1: get an opinion, but we're all teaching the same stuff
Speaker 1: night in and night out. That's where I was before
Speaker 1: I got on this call. It was a training session
Speaker 1: on our new system for our phone. Where if I'm
Speaker 1: watching a game on October eighth, and Zach Zarbi is
Speaker 1: worth watching that, refing that game, the game that he
Speaker 1: worked on October sixth, I can go into this phone,
Speaker 1: pull up the game, pull up the plays that that
Speaker 1: DA or that that's what I'm called a developmental advisor
Speaker 1: and has in there that Zach did real well or
Speaker 1: maybe Zach needs some help on now I look for that. Now,
Speaker 1: it's looking for all the patterns. It's it's absolutely awesome
Speaker 1: where it's come. I mean, it's absolutely awesome. And the
Speaker 1: NBA they want their referees, they're looking for perfection, but
Speaker 1: they're gonna wind up with excellence is what they're gonna get.
Speaker 1: You never get perfection. But we're getting there. We are
Speaker 1: getting there, and it's not gonna it's not gonna stop.
Speaker 1: It's just gonna keep getting better and better. Don't answer
Speaker 1: your question. I know it's a long winded answer, but
Speaker 1: didn't answer it to it, did well, I might add,
Speaker 1: and I won't keep you. You've been great and gracious
Speaker 1: and really good conversation. A couple more things, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to ask you to indulge me a little
Speaker 1: bit later because I have a long history with referees.
Speaker 1: But doesn't make you a bad guy as a high schooler.
Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit flippant, yes, but in a moment,
Speaker 1: so just real quickly. We talked about the road with
Speaker 1: your dad and with yourself, like you know, you guys
Speaker 1: reffed almost an entire eighty two game season, but you're
Speaker 1: not on a charge yet. You know, you're not at
Speaker 1: the top hotel. You try to stay away from where
Speaker 1: the teams are in terms of congregating and whatnot. You
Speaker 1: wear the black hat a little bit in the perception
Speaker 1: of the fans, and it had to be lonely a
Speaker 1: little bit, I would think, and to be you know,
Speaker 1: out there solo. Uh speak to that a little bit
Speaker 1: because you know, forty years on the road and I know,
Speaker 1: but you know we're part of a group. What was
Speaker 1: it like for you flowing a flying solo like that?
Speaker 1: You know, you're you just get used to it. It's
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five days a month. And then when you're
Speaker 1: living in Philly obviously where I do. You have Philly, Washington,
Speaker 1: New Jersey, New York, so you can get to your
Speaker 1: bed that night. Okay, Um, it is, but you get
Speaker 1: used to it and then um sometimes you're with referees
Speaker 1: on consecutive games. But it's like a job, Tom, you
Speaker 1: well know, it's like any kind of job. Some people
Speaker 1: you really get along with well, and some people you
Speaker 1: just okay, see see you to morrow, see at the airport,
Speaker 1: you know, and there's nothing personal. It's just your job.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's you know, it's just what you do.
Speaker 1: But it's it does get I Later in my life,
Speaker 1: I became a movie guy, you know, and I would
Speaker 1: go to the movies or things like that. So I tried.
Speaker 1: Then the computer came into vogue, which was bad for
Speaker 1: me because then then I could Then I was getting
Speaker 1: the games on the team. You know. Now I'm sitting
Speaker 1: in the hotel room watching a basketball game, you know,
Speaker 1: an NBA game, because I very rarely I don't watch
Speaker 1: much college basketball because I'm an NBA guy. I'm watching
Speaker 1: NBA refs. That's what I watched, you know, even when
Speaker 1: I was reffing, that's what I did. I just watched.
Speaker 1: I watched games. But the computer, the computer did a
Speaker 1: lot for guys like us, as you well know, time
Speaker 1: you can sit in that room, do movies, you know,
Speaker 1: watch games and things that that passes the time. The
Speaker 1: time was is the killer, as you will know you
Speaker 1: and you're you know, I used to tell people all
Speaker 1: the time, they say, how long you're on the road.
Speaker 1: I said, I said, you know, I checked my schedule
Speaker 1: and I packed. If it's eight days, I packed eight
Speaker 1: pair underwear. And when then the underwear runs out, I
Speaker 1: know I'm supposed to go home. So I hope they
Speaker 1: don't call and give me an extra game. I might
Speaker 1: have been a little tm I, but no, no, for me,
Speaker 1: I gotta get outside of those those walls. You gotta
Speaker 1: get out. You're one of them. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: gotta go to a movie, I gotta go to the
Speaker 1: theater and whatnot. But so yeah, a lot of that
Speaker 1: I suppose is in fact the same. So I was
Speaker 1: kind of joking about the refereeen. But as a high
Speaker 1: school player, I went to a high school run by
Speaker 1: benedictin monks like priests and brothers, and they would shuffle
Speaker 1: over in their cassocks and their sandals from the monastery
Speaker 1: and they had this little liver of bleachers that they
Speaker 1: sat in. Well, number thirty four was swearing out there
Speaker 1: like oh my God, in front of my dad too.
Speaker 1: But yeah, in the captain's huddle if I wasn't in there,
Speaker 1: they were like, you tell them against the shut ups,
Speaker 1: and I just, I just I couldn't continue myself. I
Speaker 1: got a host of teas throughout my three year varsity
Speaker 1: back Tom. That's they're funny stories, though, because no matter
Speaker 1: where I go, it's funny. It s You could be
Speaker 1: sitting in the airport, you could be in a restaurant,
Speaker 1: you could be deadywhere, and all of a sudden, this
Speaker 1: guy I'll come walking up Tony as I said, remember
Speaker 1: when you used to work Saint Dorothy's games, And I
Speaker 1: go like this, yeah, I remember, I did a lot
Speaker 1: of them. I remember at the time you threw that guy.
Speaker 1: And I'm looking at the guy I don't remember, and
Speaker 1: I'll go I was the guy, and I I always
Speaker 1: gotta say, I always say the same thing, did you
Speaker 1: deserve it? Yeah, I deserve. And then one time in
Speaker 1: the CBA, it was much smaller. There were ten players
Speaker 1: and the coach and in my case and this three
Speaker 1: year hitching lacrosse Wisconsin, it was the kap Birds and
Speaker 1: Flip Saunders was a coach and as a sister and
Speaker 1: coach was Don ze Arden and we've had another guy,
Speaker 1: and of course Flip has passed, but Trey Schwap and
Speaker 1: he passed away too, But there was basically like maybe
Speaker 1: fourteen and I was the radio guy, so it was
Speaker 1: a lot cloe. We all piled into the same vand
Speaker 1: and so after the game, I would go and sit
Speaker 1: with Flip and talk about the game, and then I'd
Speaker 1: have to go to his hotel room and he would
Speaker 1: go on and I think he would be on the
Speaker 1: phone with Jim Tooley, I mean Joe till like one am,
Speaker 1: and you know, Jim would have to take another call
Speaker 1: for Americ Muscleman. But one time we were in Ohio,
Speaker 1: and the venue is always changed, but oftentimes it was
Speaker 1: like the Exposition Center on the Ferret Grounds or whatever,
Speaker 1: and that was the case in Columbus, Ohio. So it
Speaker 1: was a circular building. We lose. They had like Kelvin
Speaker 1: Ramsay or something we use. I'm going back to see
Speaker 1: flip and here comes Woody Mayfield and whoever else he's
Speaker 1: working with. I totally knew I shouldn't say anything, but
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh boy, that was a rough one to night.
Speaker 1: And he does a for verset pivot one eighty white
Speaker 1: Mike Grill, what's your name? And I wish I would
Speaker 1: have had the savvy to say, well, my name efficiently
Speaker 1: Chris had told and I come into the room and
Speaker 1: flips like, what's wrong? You look a little terse. It's
Speaker 1: a little incident with what you Makefield in the whole.
Speaker 1: I guess you're supposed to just be the radio. That's
Speaker 1: a great story tone. That's awesome. I love that stuff.
Speaker 1: I love that stuff with people come after you. They
Speaker 1: you know there's nothing you can do, you know, they
Speaker 1: just come after you. They had cost you. They feel good,
Speaker 1: they feel themselves. They say it's funny as hell. Well
Speaker 1: one time, and this goes back to another league there
Speaker 1: was obviously clearly now defunct, but it was called the
Speaker 1: World Basketball League. Yeah sure, it was for six five
Speaker 1: and under players and young stound hat had all the
Speaker 1: good players. Shocking development the guy who in the league
Speaker 1: was down there, Mickey Motus. Anyway, so we played, you know,
Speaker 1: not we did play some teams from Germany, Ely and
Speaker 1: Spain came to the state. But we traveled to Candidate
Speaker 1: and one of our games you went to Saskatchewan in
Speaker 1: Calgary and Halifax, and one of our games was in Victoria,
Speaker 1: British Columbia, and we played it was an ex in
Speaker 1: the Canadian Olympic team with Eli Pisqually and probably Greg
Speaker 1: Wilcher and some of those names, and they were I
Speaker 1: believe high school referees. In the game was in a
Speaker 1: high school gym, and in a shocking twist, they got
Speaker 1: most of the calls and the game went to overtime
Speaker 1: and there was this controversial technical or whatever, and I'm
Speaker 1: on the radio back to Erie, Pennsylvania, probably like twelve
Speaker 1: thirty eastern, and you know, there was like this. It
Speaker 1: took a long time. There was no video replay or
Speaker 1: anything like that. So the guy and I had just
Speaker 1: some folding table was my broadcast position on the court,
Speaker 1: and the referee was right there and I had another
Speaker 1: headset for the postgame interview and looking for a little clarification,
Speaker 1: I like you know, offered the guy, would you want
Speaker 1: to don the headset? And he does it, gets on
Speaker 1: the headset and I'm like, so, what exactly is going
Speaker 1: on with these tech? So the Dave Gavitt of Canadian basketball,
Speaker 1: remember the head of Canadian Olympic Basketball, comes down, and
Speaker 1: he slams the cable and I'm thinking, boy, I had
Speaker 1: been some hot water now. But to your point, he
Speaker 1: was like, he couldn't believe the officials did that on
Speaker 1: the broadcast. Your kind of got robbed. We lose the game,
Speaker 1: and now we're in the air to tell him, what
Speaker 1: did you tell him on air? You got we got robbed.
Speaker 1: I was too busy running back to the pay phone
Speaker 1: to make sure we were still on the air bag
Speaker 1: in here, Pa. Anyway, So the next morning, we're sitting
Speaker 1: at the air the whole the whole basketball team to
Speaker 1: coach myself, and we're reading the local paper and this
Speaker 1: was just prior to the Olympics. So it said something
Speaker 1: along the lines of not even American broadcasting giant NBC
Speaker 1: would have the audacity they interview an official during the game.
Speaker 1: But it says my name and everything, and I'm like, guys,
Speaker 1: I made the local paper it's amazing when you those
Speaker 1: first number of years. I don't know remember when it was,
Speaker 1: but we used to go teach, you know, Canadian referees
Speaker 1: and they'd come to camp in the summertime, back in
Speaker 1: the day when they had the summer leagues and Loyola Marymountain,
Speaker 1: all those people would come in and Daryl would teach
Speaker 1: him and we would teach them referee and you were
Speaker 1: amazed how little they knew. And everybody thought we were bad,
Speaker 1: you know, but they didn't know anything. Now they are
Speaker 1: really good, phoebe and those referees have really gotten a
Speaker 1: lot better now. The NBA has given them a lot
Speaker 1: of that tutelage. But but it's it's um, they're good.
Speaker 1: They got some good referees. Well, Joel, let you go.
Speaker 1: I do want this though, if you could do me
Speaker 1: the favor of telling Bo Howard, I said, hi, because
Speaker 1: when my first year, as you know, John Lucas was
Speaker 1: our coach and Luke Nico played for the terms at Maryland,
Speaker 1: and oh man, we used to he was at a
Speaker 1: lot of our practices and were Saint Joe's and I
Speaker 1: whether it was at the Spectrum later, but I laughed
Speaker 1: and we had such a great time. And I haven't
Speaker 1: seen him for years. And that's one of those basketball
Speaker 1: guys in our neck of the woods. If you would that,
Speaker 1: I would love to reach out to. He's he's the best.
Speaker 1: We're good friends, and he's just an awesome, awesome guy.
Speaker 1: He really, he really is. He cursed me at one
Speaker 1: night down to Baker League. He talked. We'd laugh about it.
Speaker 1: It was I didn't know him. I'm a kid. I'm
Speaker 1: only like I'm down there refing when I'm twenty two,
Speaker 1: twenty three, you know, and he cursed me. I cursed
Speaker 1: him back. We're going back. No, now we're talking about
Speaker 1: we're in our sixties and we love one another. It's awesome,
Speaker 1: aweso great. Well, I think we said a new record
Speaker 1: on Tom's talk about for longevity. So Joe, I can't
Speaker 1: thank you enough anytime. Stay well, take care and hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll see you in an NBA arena soon down the road. Tom,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this edition of Tom Talks. Look
Speaker 1: for new episodes throughout the offseason. If you like what
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Speaker 1: Tom McGinnis. Talk to you down the road.