1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Y'all tonight we got the real deal. Now, I know 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: this is not what he's about. He's not in it 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: for accolades, and you know, people bragging on him. But 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm fixing to do because it is 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: important for all of y'all to know exactly who was 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: talking to us tonight. We have Frank big Luozy. Now, 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: let me tell you something. He served twenty five years 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: in the FBI. He was the Assistant director for counter Intelligence. 9 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: He spent most of his time directed all SB and 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: I across all governments levels. He was the man making 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: sure everybody was safe. He appears weekly on MSNBC and 12 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: NBC News. After the FBI, he headed up security for 13 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: a Fortune ten company, not Fortune five hundred, y'all. Fortune ten. 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: There were two hundred thousand employees in one hundred and 15 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: eighty countries. That's a little bit of a job. And 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: when you're talking about keeping that many people safe in 17 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: that many different countries, with different cultures, different rules, different laws, 18 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: different ways of policeing, that's a lot of work. He 19 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: is the author of the FBI Way Inside the Bureau's 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: Code of Excellence. Now he's written other books and we're 21 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: going to get into those in a minute, but it 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: is my honor to introduce y'all to Frank Biglouthy. 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: Cheryl. Thank you for having me. It feels like it's 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: been a long time coming, but we're finally here. 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: We are finally here, and I have been so excited 26 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: all week. I just could not wait to get here, 27 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: because you know, it's not often that you have got 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: somebody it knows secrets, keep secrets, knows how to keep 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: people safe, knows how to work under the radar, and 30 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: then is willing to share some of that to keep 31 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: people safe. And you know, tonight we're going to talk 32 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: about a lot of things, but I'm gonna let you 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: kind of lead us. You and I have talked offline obviously, 34 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: and human trafficking is something that I want to hit 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: on tonight. It's one of your areas of expertise. And 36 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't understand how violence 37 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: is used, how false promises are used, how the promise 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: of romance is used, and manipulation. People just don't get it. 39 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: And now with all this controversy about you know, wanting 40 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: to call every single person a sex worker, I don't 41 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: know how you feel about it, but I think there 42 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: needs to be a distinction, and it's not one category. 43 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: It's just not. 44 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got some strong feelings on the topic, and 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: I appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation around this topic. 46 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: And you know, let's address the last and most recent 47 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: thing you said and the whole sex worker phraseology. Here's 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 2: my experience, and that is that it's actually a minority 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: of the sex for money trade that actually involves voluntary women, men, 50 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 2: and transgender persons and the majority And again this is 51 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: my experience where I come from not only twenty five 52 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: years in the FBI, but spending over a year of 53 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: my life researching this topic, including on the street doing 54 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: field interviews of experts and trafficking victims. That's my observation 55 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: that we're talking about the majority of that industry is 56 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: non voluntary, non consensual, and called trafficking. 57 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Correct. 58 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: Are there people in the sex for money trade that 59 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: are individual operators, are voluntary? Oh of course, yeah, of 60 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: course they are. But that's not what we're here to 61 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: talk about. That's not what my book is about. And 62 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: quite frankly, I think we're not spending enough time talking 63 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: about as a society talking about the trafficking side because 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 2: it's everywhere we live and work and drive. 65 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: Amen. So we're going to talk about it tonight. So 66 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: what I want to know from you is when you 67 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: think about the victims that are forced to work as prostitutes, 68 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: forced to be migrant workers, domestic hell factory workers, restaurant y'all, 69 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: you've got people that are literally victims of human traffic 70 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: and working in restaurant. 71 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I can tell you that from personal experience that 72 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: Asian restaurant you're going to sometimes a Latin American restaurant, 73 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: depending depending on where you may be served, and there 74 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: may be people in the kitchen who are literally chained 75 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: to the floor at night and thrown into a van 76 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: in the morning and driven to work, and that cycle 77 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: repeats itself every single day. That is often the result 78 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: of human smuggling and paying off your debt, which you 79 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: may or may not ever pay off. And so I 80 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: think we need to look holistically at all the things 81 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: you just rattled off, whether it's human smuggling and trafficking, 82 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: drug trafficking, indentured servitude in the restaurant industry. What we're 83 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: really talking about is trafficking and to look at that 84 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: holistically and go, oh, okay, So trafficking is trafficking, So 85 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: similar trade routes are used, and drug cartels don't care 86 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: if they're smuggling humans in the morning and drugs in 87 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: the evening. It's all trafficking. So I think it helps 88 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: from a mindset perspective to understand that we're talking about 89 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: the same thing. And yes, of course it helps to 90 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: uniquely and specifically understand the nuances of different kinds of traffic. 91 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: And my new book is about human trafficking and trucking. 92 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: That's something we'll get into, I'm sure. But what I 93 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: focused on in my FBI career was only a brief 94 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: glimpse on my radar screen of things that I ended 95 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: up working or supervising. And I'm specifically talking about two 96 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: times in my twenty five year career. One time I 97 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: was a young supervisor in the San Francisco Field office 98 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: on one of the very first squads in the history 99 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: of the FBI to be dedicated to crimes against children. 100 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: That was an eye opener for me. Received training there, 101 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: but boy, the best training you get is working and 102 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: supervising those cases very very young children. And I can 103 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: tell you that there was so much child pornography, and 104 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: now we use the term for your listeners who may 105 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: know this already, So forgive me. The term child porn, 106 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: just like the term sex worker is not something that 107 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: I particularly like because I think it legitimizes traffic victims. 108 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: We don't like the term child porn anymore because sadly, 109 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: pornography has become mainstreamed in our society through platforms like 110 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: porn Hub and others, and so when people hear porn, 111 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: they go, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, porn. So what we 112 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 2: say instead of child porn is child sexual Abuse Material CSAM. 113 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll hear people say child sexual assault material, but 114 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: at CSAM, and that is a far more realistic depiction 115 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: of what's happening. The kids are being assaulted and abused. So, 116 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, we had so much of it, Cheryl in 117 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: northern California, which was my responsibility, We went all the 118 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: way up to the Oregon border, all the way down 119 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: through Monterey, California to the south. We had so much 120 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: of it that the US Attorney's Office said, look, you're 121 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: only going to work clearly pre pubescent children in the 122 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: images and the missing and abducted and killed the children. 123 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: We were working, and you're only going to work distribution 124 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: and production. So possession went to the police department and 125 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: the District Attorney's office. That's how much we had, and 126 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: we couldn't handle all of it. Then the second time 127 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: in my career where I really got into the issue 128 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: of trafficking was I became the special Agent in charge 129 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: in Northern Ohio. So I had the Cleveland Field Office 130 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: in all of northern Ohio, including a satellite office, a 131 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: resident agency in Toledo, Ohio. Ware of all things, Toledo 132 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: was recognized as a hub for nationwide trafficking and particularly 133 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: of underage victims. Why Toledo What I learned, and this 134 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: is true everywhere you live. If you've got an intersection 135 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: of multiple major interstate highways with an active train station 136 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: and bus station, and you have a hub for interstate 137 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: trucking and rest stops, you have a trafficking problem guaranteed. 138 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: And I can tell you that we saw and we're 139 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: able to take down large trafficking organizations based in Toledo 140 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: that were trafficking. They're victims across the country to include 141 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: traffic picking them into special events like the Super Bowl, 142 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: the Republican National Convention, the Democratic National Convention, large college 143 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: fraternity alumni functions right out of Toledo on my own. 144 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: Let me just tell everybody just one statistic that blew 145 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: my mind. In twenty twenty two, the National Center for 146 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: Missing and Exploited Children had a tip line that received 147 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: eighty eight million reports of child sexual abuse. Eighty eight million. 148 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a number. I can't even comprehend answering 149 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: that many calls for help. 150 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: It's everywhere. And I have to tell you when I 151 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: had that squad, and again it was an early squad 152 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: for the FBI. The only other one at the time 153 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: was in Dallas, Texas. I had young children at the time, 154 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: and it was it was traumatic for me to see 155 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: what was happening and realize, wait a minute, I had 156 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: two young children, and it got to the point where 157 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: I take them to the park and I was able 158 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: to spot the pedophile on the edge of the park yep, 159 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: you know. And then we had a task force we 160 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: were a part of there in northern California whose job 161 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: it was to follow recently paroled or probationary inmates who 162 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: had a you know, we're registered sex offenders against children 163 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: follow them around, and I can tell you it was 164 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: not hard at all and didn't take long to violate 165 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: their parole or probation. So if they're if the judge 166 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: said you can't go within certain feet of a school 167 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: or a playground, or have a computer your possession, we 168 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: could violate them in forty eight hours. 169 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: Type in your address on the sex offender registry and 170 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: wats those little dots just pop up. And keep in mind, 171 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: those are only the ones that have been convicted at 172 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: a report where they live. 173 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 2: That's true. The other thing we'd find in that task 174 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: force experience was when you finally did violate them and 175 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: the parole officer would put them in handcuffs, you'd look 176 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 2: at the odometer on their car and it would have 177 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: extraordinarily high mileage for that year of car, meaning they 178 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: spent their waking hours driving around looking for victims. 179 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: You know, sir, I say all the time, there ain't 180 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: no such thing as a part time pedophile. It's what 181 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: they do, full time, hunting talking to children, trying to 182 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: figure out what job can I get to be near them? 183 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: Can I be a malsanna? Can I work at a 184 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: water park? Can I be somewhere in a kindergarten classroom. 185 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Can I be a middle school football coach? They will 186 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: seek out jobs that put them in a position where 187 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: the victims literally come to them. 188 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, jobs and proximity. The other thing that's amazing here 189 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: is this straddles all socioeconomic and educational backgrounds. Doctors, lawyers, 190 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: you name the profession, and we've arrested people in that profession, 191 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: or pedophilia, assault on children. The other thing is, and 192 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: this sounds you know, this may sound strange, but this 193 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: can be extremely dangerous work for FBI and law enforcement. 194 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why. And it's sadly it hasn't 195 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: really become clear to the public or to many law 196 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: enforcement agencies, but it has at the FBI because we've 197 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: actually had agents killed during service of arrest or search 198 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: warrants for child porn. Why is that Because when you're 199 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: talking particularly about a professional, a doctor, lawyer, some a minister, 200 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: someone with upstanding status in the community, and you're knocking 201 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: on that door and he knows it's over. But it's 202 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: not just over for him legally, it's over for him 203 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: in terms of his career, his status, his whole life 204 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: is crashing down on him. And they either. Sadly, we 205 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: actually had a form in the FBI. This applied to 206 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: all programs and violations, but we had a form to 207 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: fill out for suicide by the subject you were investigating. 208 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: They would either kill themselves or they would kill the agents. Sadly, 209 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: we lost two agents just about four years ago in 210 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: Miami who are simply trying to gain entry to a 211 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: subjects home. 212 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: I remember that that was a horrible day. And you 213 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: know another thing that want to point out, speaking of 214 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: people that gravitate towards certain jobs, some of these folks 215 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: are also serial killers. And the number one job of 216 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: a serial killer is a truck driver. 217 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: A lot of people don't know that that's a stat 218 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: you just gave out that shocks people. But there's no 219 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: other profession even close by far. The number one profession 220 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: of serial killers is long haul truck driver. 221 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: And let me brag all the FBI minute. In twenty nineteen, 222 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: I was able to take the FBI's h SK and 223 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: BAU training ALTHEA Duncan was the unit chiefs there, I 224 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: think it was Unit four, and they came to Atlanta 225 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: and did this big conference. And the thing that I 226 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: took away more than anything is. Every single facilitator from 227 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: the FBI ended by saying anything I can do, here's 228 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: my name and number. If you need help on a case, 229 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: call me. And that was one of the things that 230 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: I appreciated more than anything, because, especially with my police department, 231 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: I love being able to get somebody on the phone 232 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: that is smarter than me, that's got more experience than me, 233 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: and that can help me put a case together better. 234 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: And that's what y'all are all about, if people will 235 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: call you. So I just wanted to say that because 236 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: I know you were instrumental in the Highway serial killer 237 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: and how you combatd that truck driving issue. 238 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: Well, first, I'm always thrilled to hear that an FBI 239 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: program was presented well to the law enforcement community. My 240 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: intersection with the HSK. By the way, for those wondering, hey, 241 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 2: what's that HSK thing, that's the Highway Serial Killings initiative 242 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: at the FBI started in about two thousand and four 243 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: by the FBI in response to a need at the 244 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: state level, particularly Oklahoma. That and we'll tell I'll tell 245 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: you that story briefly, but you know, Cheryl mentions that 246 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: the FBI is there to help with the HSK initiative. Yeah, 247 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: that's the whole point of this database and the crime 248 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: analysts based at Quantico, Virginia, who aren't necessarily smarter or 249 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: more proficient, but rather they got the thirty thousand foot 250 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: view of things. So what does that mean. It means 251 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 2: that Back in two thousand and three, a crime analyst 252 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation named Terry Turner 253 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: started to notice that young ladies were turning up dead 254 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: around the country and they were all from Oklahoma. They 255 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: had another thing in common, which was they had a 256 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: history of traffic, being a trafficking victim sex for money. 257 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: So she kept telling her leadership, Hey we boss, we've 258 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: got two two bodies from Oklahoma. Hey we've got three, 259 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 2: We've got four. This all happened in just a few 260 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 2: months toward the fall and winter of two thousand and 261 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: three and into two thousand and four. So it got 262 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 2: to the point where ten bodies were found, all from Oklahoma, 263 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: around the country, and her leadership finally appeased. Terran said, Okay, okay, 264 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: we know you want to have a meeting. Send out 265 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: a teletype to homicide detectives everywhere and ask them if 266 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: they've got similar cases. Go ahead, you can do that. 267 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: Similar cases meaning a female body found by the side 268 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: of an interstate highway might be involved in trafficking and 269 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: it was last seen alive at or around a truck 270 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: stop or interstate highway. Well, a lot of detectives responded, 271 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: a lot, and she thought, you know, we'll have a 272 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: handful of people if I get a meeting together here, 273 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 2: we'll serve coffee and donuts. And well, a crowd showed up. 274 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: And then Terry Turner went to the FBI field office 275 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: there in Oklahoma and said, you got to come. You've 276 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: got to send somebody from behavioral analysis, and they did. 277 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 2: And once the FBI saw the facts of these cases, 278 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: they said, you do have serial killers poral and we're in. 279 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: We're going to help. And that was the birth of 280 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 2: the Highway Serial Killings Initiative, a database dedicated entirely to 281 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: female victims unsolved homicides. And you might ask, how many 282 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 2: homicides are there that the FBI knows Of eight hundred 283 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: fifty dead women alongside our nations highways in just the 284 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: past few decades, two hundred or more are considered unsolved 285 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: and active. And when I asked the FBI. How many 286 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 2: suspects are you looking at? They said four hundred suspects. 287 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 2: That's in the long haul trucking community. And I gave 288 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: the fdog and I was researching my book Long Haul. 289 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: I gave the FBI every chance to kind of be 290 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: politically correct. I said, you're not saying that that all 291 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: of these are long hauled truckers, are you, And they said, no, Frank, 292 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: we are saying that. 293 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: My lord. But again, they're going to gravitate towards jobs 294 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: that give them what they need to pull off these crimes. 295 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: What better job than being a truck driver. You pick 296 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: somebody up that's a runaway from a gas station or 297 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: a truck stop. You drive them nine hundred miles. They 298 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: think they're just getting a ride. You kill them, drive 299 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: them another two hundred miles and dump them. And you're 300 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: just moving. You are a moving crime scene. Nobody is 301 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: ever going to be the wiser. And you pull over, 302 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: toss them out, and keep going. 303 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: Exactly right. It's an eighteen wheel crime scene, and the 304 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: truckers are exploiting the seam. In law enforcement jurisdictions, as 305 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: you said, they'll grab a victim in one police jurisdiction, 306 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: rape end or murder her in a second jurisdiction, and 307 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: dump the remains in a third jurisdiction. That makes for 308 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: an almost impossible challenge for investigators, often RURALD County sheriff's 309 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 2: deputies who are told, hey, there's a body near the highway, 310 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: no ide you know, they don't know who it is, 311 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 2: they don't know how you know. The coroner might say, 312 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: we think she was there for six months, six months, 313 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: six weeks, six days. How long do I go back? 314 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: How do I pull all the receipts from gas stations, 315 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: from way stations, how about fuel receipts at truck stops? 316 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: How many trucking companies are there that I've got to 317 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: go pull data from. That's where the FBI comes in 318 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: and says, let us help you figure this out. 319 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: And sir, that's that they got victim. That's a fifteen 320 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: year old run away, never been fingerprinted, has no idea 321 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: on them, and maybe they're already being traffic so they 322 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: took their idea. What she's thrown in a river for 323 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: two weeks, You're not going to know who she is ever. 324 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: No, And there's a further complication Cheryl, which makes it 325 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: even harder to solve because in so many of these cases, 326 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: the family members, as a form of survival, it is 327 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: a survival mechanism, have distanced themselves from their loved one, 328 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: meaning they can only take so much. So many phone 329 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: calls from the police, Hey, your daughter's in jail, come 330 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: bail her out. So many overdoses, so many fights about 331 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: stolen money from mom's purse. They start to distance themselves 332 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: so they don't even know that their loved one is missing, 333 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: let alone murdered. So that means you don't have any 334 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: loved one at the police department pounding their fists on 335 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: the desk. What have you done to find my daughter? 336 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: What have you done to solve this murder? You know, 337 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: and we all know. Sadly, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, 338 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 2: and as you go week after week and have no leads, 339 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 2: no way of figuring this out, the slowly that case 340 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: moves to the bottom of the pile. That's all part 341 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: of the problem here. 342 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: How important is it that local agencies contact you? I 343 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: mean not just for resources, but for knowledge, for even 344 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: a mini task. 345 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: For as you well know because you've been through this training, 346 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: the FBI is in the sales and marketing business with 347 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 2: regard to this initiative. They know that even the majority 348 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: of police and sheriff departments have never heard of the 349 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: Highway Serial Killings initiative and couldn't couldn't find the database 350 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: if they were paid to the database for HSKI sits 351 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: within YCAP which many police farms are aware of a 352 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: violent criminal apprehension program. But it's not by gap, it's 353 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: inside by gaps. You got to look for it. You 354 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 2: got to know about it to look for it. And 355 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: then what I keep hearing from law enforcement agencies is, look, 356 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: we heard about it, but now they're asking us to 357 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: fill out this questionnaire about our unsolved crime on the 358 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: alongside the highway and it's two hundred questions and you're 359 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: out of your mind if you think this police department 360 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: even has a detective, let alone a crime analyst. Know, 361 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,239 Speaker 2: we do road patrol in a rural county. How are 362 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: we supposed to do this? But that's a dilemma. And 363 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: the FBI comes in and says, look, you know, we 364 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: can help you. There's grant money available from DJ if 365 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: you've got multiple murders that are linked, we may be 366 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: able to come sit alongside you and help you get 367 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: that into the database. But you've got to do it. 368 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: It's garbage in, garbage out. We can't help you if 369 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: we don't know how to help you or why so 370 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: people say, wow, what are the two hundred questions? This 371 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 2: gets into victimology, gets into questions like, tell me about 372 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: your crime scene, Tell me about your victim. What color 373 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: was her hair, her eyes? How was she dressed? Was 374 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: she nude? Was she partially nude? Which part was she? 375 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: Was she mutilated before death? If so, how? What was 376 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: the means of death? Was it strangulation? Was it stabbing? 377 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: Was it shooting? Was she strangled with an item of 378 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 2: her own clothing? Which item? Can you give us a 379 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: photo of the not used to gag her or strangle her? 380 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: When you're done with all those questions, you know, was 381 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: she found in or near water? Was she face down? 382 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 2: Her face up? Was she sexually violated or just killed? 383 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: You get those in the system, and now the experience 384 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: of all those analysts in that unit back at Quanticico 385 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 2: and the algorithms in the database start doing their magic, 386 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 2: and they could say, and they have said, we've seen 387 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: this exact scene crime scene three years ago, way across 388 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: the country, they start connecting the dots. 389 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: So I'm going to say it again in case any 390 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: junior officer, rookie detective is listening. If you heard what 391 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: he said, if you have highways that intersect, and I'll 392 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: tell you about my own department. We have Highway seventy 393 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: five on one end and Highway eighty five on the other, 394 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: and what splits our town wide open or railroad tracks 395 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: and I can hit a golf ball practically to the 396 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: tower of the world's busy as airport. We have trafficking, 397 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: and if we're not making a rest, we're flat missing it. 398 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: You always have some hopes when you write a book 399 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: like this and people ask me, what do you hope 400 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: to accomplish here? So first, of course, on a general level, 401 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: it's awareness. But one of the great things that could 402 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: happen would be for law enforcement personnel to read this 403 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: and say, you know what, I haven't entered my case 404 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: to the HSKI, and I need to do it. Another 405 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: thing that could happen is victim families who are possibly 406 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: now aware that their loved one was murdered, should be 407 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: going to their police department and saying, have you entered 408 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: this case into the FBI's HSK database. That would be 409 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: a wonderful thing. There's lots of things. I had a 410 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 2: you know, I had an interview about this book. They 411 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: were the hosts of the podcasts, did some a prison 412 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: ministry in their county, and they said, Frank, you know, 413 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: we're we're in the jails and prisons every day and 414 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: talking to women who are trafficked. And one of the 415 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: things that stood out to them was the data that 416 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: said between sixty and eighty percent of all female inmates 417 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: have been trafficked sometime in their life. That just floored 418 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: them to the point of almost disbelief. So they started 419 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: doing some research in their own jails and they said, 420 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: you know what, you're right, it's like eighty percent. And 421 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: then they came back and said, Frank, we also read 422 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: for the first time in your book that a lot 423 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: of recruitment for trafficking. Sex trafficking happens inside a jail cell, 424 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: where one inmate who's probably in for prostitution, recruits another 425 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: inmate by saying, hey, do you have a place to 426 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: go when you get out? If you don't, come stay 427 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: with me and my boyfriend will take care of you. 428 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: I'll put some money on your jail account for the phone. 429 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: You call us. I know you're just several weeks away 430 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: from getting out. We'll take care of it. Come pick 431 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: you up. That floored them, so they started asking the 432 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: female inmates that they work with, have you ever heard 433 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: of this? And the answer was, oh, yeah, it's going 434 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: on right now. You know, we can tell you right 435 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: now these women have been recruited in the GEIL and 436 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: so you know that's a good thing. If that happens 437 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: more and more the awareness, I'll be very happy. 438 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely. But again, just you being here and the officers 439 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,239 Speaker 1: that listen to this podcast need to go back and 440 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: tell everybody. Put it in your group chats, where you're 441 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: on those apps, talking to other detectives. Let them know 442 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: this is vital. And I can tell you there's a 443 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: whole lot of people that think by CAP is too 444 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: complicated and it is just double work and triple work. It 445 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: is so worth it. It is the most important thing 446 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: you can do. The AHSKI is vital to saving lives. 447 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: It is. There's a track record there because I you know, 448 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: I asked the FBI some hard questions, Hey is this working? 449 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: Have you you have success stories? And they do. Even 450 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: just connecting killings years apart could actually solve the case. 451 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: It's one thing to say, hey, we we saw this 452 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: exact same crime scene. It looks like the same person, 453 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: you know, ten years ago. Okay, that's very nice. But 454 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: here's what departments are doing with that information. They are 455 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: grabbing DNA that from one case and they're going, okay, 456 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: you know what, We're going to run this. We're going 457 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: to run this DNA again and sure enough, you know 458 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: or it matches that ten year old case, and now 459 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: you've got your killer. You start doing your genealogical your 460 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 2: genetic DNA, you start finding family members. This really happens 461 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: in real life. It's happened quite recently. It does work. 462 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 2: But again, garbage in, garbage out. So I'm sure people 463 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: were wondering at the start of our conversation show, how 464 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: is it, how do we go from trafficking to trucking. Well, 465 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 2: this is it. This is the connection, which is that 466 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: the most vulnerable victims out there for serial killer truckers 467 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: are sex trafficked victims. Why it's their job to get 468 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: as close as you could possibly get to someone intimately, 469 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: to someone who could absolutely end their life and it's 470 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: happening by the hundreds. So that was my research for 471 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: long Haul Hunting the Highway serial Killers. The book became 472 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: so popular it came out at the end of very 473 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: end of May. In the first three weeks the book 474 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: was out, HarperCollins, my publisher, had to reprint it three times. 475 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: It's out there generating a lot of interest. What did 476 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: I do for research? One of the things I did 477 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: was I rode over two thousand miles in a big 478 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: rig with a cooperative trucker just to learn the subculture 479 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: of trucking. I wanted, you know, I wanted this book 480 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: to be a few things. One. I didn't want to 481 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: write just a gory, bloody book about murderers. I didn't 482 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: want to elevate serial killers. I didn't. I didn't want 483 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: them to be, you know, some kind of cult hero. 484 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: I certainly addressed them. So if you're a true crime affectionado, 485 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: yes this book is for you. Yet I also wanted 486 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: to write a study of three subcultures that operate right 487 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: under our noses. The first one, of course, is long 488 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 2: hauled trucking. What is everybody's life like the long haul trucker. 489 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: If you've ever wondered what goes on inside that bigre 490 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: what's their life like, do they have kids, when do 491 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 2: they see their family, how much do they make, where 492 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: do they eat, where do they go to the bathroom. 493 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: I did that and I wrote about it, And so 494 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: this book's for you sex victims. If you're thinking, ad, 495 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: this doesn't happen in my neighborhood, I don't have that 496 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: in my town. No one I know, in my family, 497 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: in my network would ever fall for that trap of trafficking. 498 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: Those people are from the other side of the tracks. Well, 499 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: I'm here to tell you my eyes were opened and 500 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: I talked to women who have been trafficked. One was 501 00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: a preacher's daughter. The commonalities are what really got to me. 502 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: Just like there's commonalities with serial killer truckers in their backgrounds, 503 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: so there are with traffic victims. And the top experts 504 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: in the country that I interviewed for the book, they 505 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: told me, Frank, when you're interviewing these victims, you better 506 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: look for the following commonalities because you're gonna see them. 507 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 2: And sure enough, as I'm talking to these women, I'm 508 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 2: checking the boxes off in my head. There's that early 509 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: childhood trauma off in the form of unwanted sexual touching 510 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: or rape molestation. There's that early exposure to marijuana, then 511 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: the bad boyfriend, then the hard drugs. There's trauma that 512 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: stacks up in their household, maybe the death of a parent, 513 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: a sibling, a suicide on, a loss of jobs, domestic 514 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: violence with the parents. All of the stacks up and 515 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: makes a perfect storm. Regardless of where you come from, 516 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: and you end up in this trap and you just 517 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: spiral downward until you either die or climb it. 518 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: Nobody is safe, nobody is insulated. It can literally happen anywhere. 519 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 2: You know. The third subculture, of course, I don't think 520 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 2: I got to that. Where it was to study the 521 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 2: lives of crime analysts, how they work in this particular initiative, 522 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: who they are, and that's a compelling story as well. 523 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: But part of my field work not only was riding 524 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 2: in a big rig for over two thousand miles, not 525 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: only talking to the top experts in the country, not 526 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 2: only talking to the sex traffic victims who have survived 527 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: violent encounters with truckers violent, but also I visited a 528 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 2: place in Phoenix, Arizona called Starfish Place. And this place 529 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: is run jointly by the City of Phoenix and Arizona 530 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: State University Department of Social Work, and a woman named 531 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: doctor Dominique Rowe Sepuit. She's in the book. This place 532 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 2: just amazed me. This is a residential campus for women 533 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: escaping trafficking who themselves have young children to care for. 534 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: And I was very moved by what goes on there, 535 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: the life training, the coaching, the kids running around playing. 536 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: I couldn't be more impressed, And so I wanted to 537 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 2: end my book Long Haul within a positive note, like, look, 538 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 2: it's not all doom and gloom. There's hope here. There 539 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 2: are resource centers Toledo, the same thing doctor Celia Williamson 540 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 2: does amazing street level work. These aren't just academic PhDs 541 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: at universities. They're at the clinical level. They're on the street. 542 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 2: The research they do is astounding. A particularly more recently, 543 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 2: doctor Sepowitz at Arizona State Research that it was so 544 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: compelling that the US Department of Defense showed up at 545 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 2: her door and said, do you realize you're doing predictive 546 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: analysis of who's going to become a trafficking victim? And 547 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 2: we want in on this, We want to figure this out. 548 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: Wow, there's another thing about your boat that I want 549 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: to point out that I thought was just stellar of you. 550 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: And you make such a point of making sure people 551 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: understand that truckers are the backbone of our country. They 552 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: bring us food, they bring us car parts, they bring 553 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: us clothes, they bring us air conditioning units. We've got 554 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: to have them. So you didn't just you know, point 555 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,959 Speaker 1: out that there's this nefarious group. You also said, Hey, 556 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: there's some really you know, decent, salt of the earth 557 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: people doing this job. And I appreciate that too. 558 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that, Cheryl. As we 559 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: as we you know, run out of time here, we 560 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: would be remiss if we didn't mention that we're only 561 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 2: talking about a tiny fraction of truckers who killed, and 562 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 2: the vast majority are actively contributing to our economy in 563 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: a huge way. I mean, last year alone, the trucking 564 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 2: industry earned over eight hundred and seventy billion dollars in 565 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 2: gross freight revenue. Grocery stores would run out of groceries 566 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 2: in three days without truckers. I partially dedicated my book. 567 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 2: You look at the dedication page of my book, and 568 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: I partially dedicate the book to the stalwart American trucker. 569 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 2: My experience on the road, I was impressed. I can 570 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: tell you I would not want to do that job. 571 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 2: It's hard. I rode flatbed, which meant we were tarping 572 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 2: and chaining and strapping our load. And you want to 573 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: talk about economic impact. Every day we were part of 574 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: the economy. Our first load that we picked up with 575 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: me writing was from a gypsum factory in Illinois that 576 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 2: made drywall for the housing industry. Another time we picked 577 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: up and deliver the lumber from the Timber Country and 578 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: the Upper Peninsula. I mean aluminum heavy aluminum rods that 579 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: we delivered to a DoD ammunition factory that was going 580 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 2: to turn it into AMMO for the military. I mean 581 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: it was astounding. 582 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: And you know, my husband works for Home Depot and 583 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: during nine to eleven, their CEO said, turn every truck 584 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: around and send them to New York City. I don't 585 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: care what's on it, give them everything. 586 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: Well, they're a tremendous asset. And I'll leave you with 587 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 2: this idea, which is, not only are the vast majority 588 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: of truckers an essential part of our economy, but they 589 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 2: are also the eyes and ears and the anti trafficking movement. 590 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 2: So who better to see and report signs of trafficking 591 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: then the guys and gals who are out there on 592 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 2: the road every day. So there are private organizations ones 593 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: called Truckers Against Trafficking. They know go by their acronym TAT. 594 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,439 Speaker 2: They do great work training long haul truckers. Every year. 595 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 2: They give out awards every year to hero truckers who 596 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: have reported and rescued someone from trafficking. You may even 597 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: pass the truck on the highway that says TAT Truckers 598 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 2: Against Trafficking. They do great work, so you know they 599 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: are part of the solution. Of course. 600 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: Well, Frank big Losy, I cannot tell you what an 601 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: honor it was to talk to you. I appreciate all 602 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: the information, and honey, I didn't get to everything. I'm 603 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: just going to have to have you back. 604 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 2: Well, I'd be happy to do it. If people want 605 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: to check out the book, it's Long Haul Hunting the 606 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 2: Highway Serial Killers. You can get it on Amazon or anywhere. 607 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: And if you want to know more about what I'm 608 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: up to, you go to my website Frankfiglouzy dot com. 609 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to end zones Heaven the way that I 610 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: always do with a quote. Girls lose their lives and 611 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: their identities when customers start touching them. They are no 612 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: longer a person. They're a product. I'm Cheryl McCollum and 613 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: this is own seven