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Speaker 1: Well that's the normal way. This is my way. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's all saying, well they will change every day. It

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Speaker 1: seem fair wasted away place. Well the face is all

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Speaker 1: so awful. Well, i drive all line to take it

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Speaker 1: back home. I'm a cowboy. Want to see it hold

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Speaker 1: side and I want it what is get around? Some

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Speaker 1: times I sleep some time that all the four games,

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Speaker 1: but at the end I mean away. You're their separate

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Speaker 1: ways some time to till the day by the bottle

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Speaker 1: that you drink, and times when you alone, what you

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Speaker 1: do is say no, cowboy's dead, hold side and wont

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Speaker 1: is that? A little string on my back might not

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Speaker 1: make it back up here? And I'm still standing. So

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Speaker 1: you guys may be wondering why we're starting off the

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Speaker 1: show with that piece and what it is. Well, that

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Speaker 1: is actually former Navy cl Ron Bellen playing some acoustic guitar.

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Speaker 1: He posted that on his Facebook on January just a

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Speaker 1: few days ago, him doing a little bon Jovi Dead

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Speaker 1: or Alive, which is pretty cool. But the unfortunate news

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Speaker 1: is that Ron, who you may remember from the show,

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Speaker 1: has passed away. I believe from a heart attack. From

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Speaker 1: what we're hearing. Anybody who's met Ron know that he

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Speaker 1: was an absolutely massive guy, so the heart attack, unfortunately

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Speaker 1: is not the biggest surprise in terms of just his size.

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Speaker 1: Ron was a Navy Seal Master Chief, serving for twenty

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Speaker 1: five years from his call sign, as you may remember,

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Speaker 1: was Reaper oh one. Uh. Shortly after retiring from the Navy,

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Speaker 1: he launched Reaper Outdoors. He was an avid hunter and

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Speaker 1: started his hunting show, Survived the Hunt. That's why he

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Speaker 1: was on with us for the first time, back on

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Speaker 1: episode to um promote Survived the Hunt and promote Reaper Outdoors.

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Speaker 1: I still actually have some of the stuff he sent me,

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Speaker 1: like he he waants a Reaper Outdoors hot sauce that

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Speaker 1: is still at my parents house. Have seen it a

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Speaker 1: the refrigerator. Uh. And then he was back on episode

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Speaker 1: one thirty nine just to discuss what he was up to. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Really great guy. And I did get to meet Ron

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Speaker 1: in person at Shot Show. You may even have jack.

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Speaker 1: He was at the Ranger up party, which you might

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Speaker 1: remember from that year at Shot Show. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I've only been that party one year and I think

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Speaker 1: that was the year I was there. Yeah, Ron was

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Speaker 1: there and and was really nice in person, and the

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Speaker 1: one story that I do have. It's pretty funny. I

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Speaker 1: was not there for this because I left that party

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Speaker 1: a little bit early. But the next day I woke

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Speaker 1: up and I was in the same room as you remember,

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Speaker 1: if you've been listening this long, uh as Jim West

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Speaker 1: we were. We were sleeping in the same room of

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Speaker 1: this house where all of us were staying at that

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Speaker 1: you know, at that time for shot show, and Jim

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Speaker 1: was telling me that some guy at the Ranger Up

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Speaker 1: party was trying to start ship with him, and Jim

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Speaker 1: was like ready to fight this guy, according to him,

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Speaker 1: And the way that Jim described this to me what

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Speaker 1: went down. He was standing in front of like a

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Speaker 1: large TV cabinet as he's telling me this, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: and then you got Ron belling with me, and Ron

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Speaker 1: is about the size of this fucking cabinet. Time and

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Speaker 1: again He's like, at this point, this guy didn't want

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Speaker 1: to mess with me. So like, that's the one kind

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Speaker 1: of funny story I had, because Ron was just like

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Speaker 1: a huge guy. And I actually think I mentioned him

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Speaker 1: a few episodes ago because when we had Carmen on,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that we had another guy with I Patch on,

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Speaker 1: which was Dan Crenshaw. And then I think I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that the other guy with a I patually had on

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Speaker 1: was Ron Bellen. How did how did Ron lose his eye?

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Speaker 1: That I don't know, but I mean if you look

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Speaker 1: back at those pictures I posted one of him, uh

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Speaker 1: out hunting with the I pack. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: I never got the chance to meet him. I mean

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Speaker 1: I think he I would have recalled if I met somebody,

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Speaker 1: probably because he was powering over me like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the way that, um I actually saw our friend Red

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Speaker 1: posted on Instagram. He said, I'll always remember meeting the

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Speaker 1: real life Snake Pliskin, which is from what game? What

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Speaker 1: game is that? It's Snake Pliskin is Escape from New York. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's what And he does look like that, Yeah yeah

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Speaker 1: he does. He's got yeah, the whole thing going. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So rest in peace, Ron. I wanted to have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a dedication there. And I mean for

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Speaker 1: a guy who served twenty five years. I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly how old he was, but that is a hell

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Speaker 1: of a career and retiring as a master chief. Um,

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Speaker 1: all right, with that, we're going to have mark you

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Speaker 1: blank on one last thing. I know you wanted to

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Speaker 1: get into, though. It's something you've written about and have

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Speaker 1: been following. Finally, the US Justice Department has opened up

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Speaker 1: a probe into the Jeffrey Epstein controversial plea deal. And

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Speaker 1: there's been some articles about that. Yeah, well jeff Epstein

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Speaker 1: got like the epitome of a sweetheart plea deal. Um.

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Speaker 1: He was. He stood accused of sexually molesting or assaulting

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Speaker 1: you know, upwards to a hundred girls. Um. And if

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Speaker 1: you guys don't know what I'm talking about, you can

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Speaker 1: go back and uh and look at some past stories.

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Speaker 1: The I believe it's the Miami Herald did a few

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Speaker 1: months back, like a huge, huge expose. I mean I

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Speaker 1: had written about this subject before, so had others. Um.

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Speaker 1: The Daily Beast had actually done a pretty good job

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Speaker 1: at following this story, um and staying on top of it.

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Speaker 1: The Miami Herald, I mean, they really dropped a bomb

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Speaker 1: on this that really just blew up the entire subject.

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Speaker 1: They did a really big investigative piece on it. And

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Speaker 1: if you go digging into this whole thing, there there

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Speaker 1: are so many threads to this deal with Jeffrey Epstein. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I'll try to be very very brief with it.

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Speaker 1: He uh was a school teacher in Brooklyn for a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Uh, and then he went to work for

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Speaker 1: a hedge fund here in Manhattan, and very quickly, within

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Speaker 1: a few years he decided to open up his own

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Speaker 1: hedge fund that only caters to billionaires like this guy

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Speaker 1: had this meteoric rise. And no one knows how he

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Speaker 1: came upon his fortune, how he made these connections, how

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Speaker 1: he went from a nobody to being a billionaire. It

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Speaker 1: seems like almost overnight. Um. And what what he stands

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Speaker 1: accused of. I mean it is essentially, you know, trafficking

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Speaker 1: underage girls. Um. There's also a litany of different allegations

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Speaker 1: him and Laine Maxwell, who is the daughter of uh

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Speaker 1: this this um British newspaper magnet who. I mean it

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Speaker 1: just like I said, there's so many threads. I mean.

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Speaker 1: Epstein new Hillary Clinton, he knew Donald Trump. Um, you

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Speaker 1: can find pictures of them together. I and he had

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Speaker 1: a private island in the Caribbean that had been dubbed

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Speaker 1: a Lolita Island where um Bill Clinton had been flown

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Speaker 1: there on Jeff Epstein's private jet. I he hosted a

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Speaker 1: prominent astrophysicist out there who recently passed away. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're all sorts of celebrities. There's British Royalty all wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in this thing. It's like a mega conspiracy, except

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Speaker 1: it's appears to be largely real. Although you know, just

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Speaker 1: because you know, just to qlarify, just because Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: was there or Bill Clinton was there, Trump Trump was

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Speaker 1: not there, Trump was not not not the island. But

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Speaker 1: either way, it doesn't mean that they were engaging in

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Speaker 1: whatever this guy was. I don't want the Pizza Gate

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Speaker 1: crowd to there's no there's no evidence that Bill Clinton

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Speaker 1: it was involved in illegal behavior. Um, but I think

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Speaker 1: we can say that. You know, if you're catching a

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Speaker 1: ride out to a place called Lolita Island on Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein's private jet, Uh, it doesn't look good. It's a

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Speaker 1: little suspicious. Um. It's just a hell of a crazy story.

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Speaker 1: And Epstein is a convicted pedophile. Um. He got as

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Speaker 1: the investigation did kick off. Um. The he had a

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Speaker 1: plea bargain deal with the courts down there in Florida

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Speaker 1: where his mansion is. He has another place here in

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Speaker 1: Manhattan over by the Frick. UM. I believe he lives

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Speaker 1: right across the street from Bill Cosby. Actually, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: I said, it's it gets very very interesting. Um and

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Speaker 1: and just like talking about it makes you sound like

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy theorist or Alex Jones or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But this, this really happened. I mean, this, this is

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Speaker 1: stuff that can be documented. And uh, the police bargain

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Speaker 1: was that he I think he got to spend like

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Speaker 1: two weeks in prison. He could come and go from

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Speaker 1: prison as he wanted, um, and he just had to

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Speaker 1: let go there and sleep there at night. And he

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Speaker 1: didn't even have to register as a sex offender here

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Speaker 1: in the state of New York. And then I remember

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Speaker 1: reading an article about it, and the courts were the

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Speaker 1: court the judge here in Manhattan was like, I have

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Speaker 1: never in my life seen prosecutors argue that a sex

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Speaker 1: offender should not be put on the sex offender registry

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Speaker 1: like he was. You could even you could see he

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Speaker 1: The judge was baffled, like what is going on here?

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Speaker 1: And I don't know what's going on here, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you, I don't think you have to be a

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Speaker 1: genius to understand that Jeffrey Epstein accumulated an intense amount

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Speaker 1: of wealth and power, and according to some of the

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Speaker 1: young women, young girls that he exploited. He kept a

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Speaker 1: little black book where he recorded um who was sleeping

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Speaker 1: with underaged girls and what their fetishes were in all

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Speaker 1: the details. The amount of leverage blackmail material that Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein most likely had over powerful individuals again ranging from

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Speaker 1: high level politicians to UH monarchs, to business leaders and

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Speaker 1: other billionaires, would have been extraordinary. And I have to

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Speaker 1: wonder if now the news that the Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: is investigating the plea deal, if that isn't being investigated,

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Speaker 1: that there's some sort of criminal corruption behind the plea

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Speaker 1: deal itself. And it goes if you look at the

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Speaker 1: articles which I was skimming through, it goes into the

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Speaker 1: actual New York politician they're investigating him. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: politician down in Miami. I believe he runs the Department

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Speaker 1: of labor Um. I'd have to check on that, but

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Speaker 1: he was intimately involved in the plea bargain that that

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Speaker 1: was that went down in Florida, which means likely a

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Speaker 1: blackmail and that guy who knows, who knows how far

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Speaker 1: that spiderweb goes and who has leverage over who um,

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Speaker 1: And it's just this is one of those cases like

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Speaker 1: I suspect the real truth behind it will never come

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Speaker 1: out because it would take down so many powerful people.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like remember that episode of The Wire

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Speaker 1: where they talk about the how how the city is

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Speaker 1: reluctant to put wires and start wire tapping, you know, say, like, um,

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Speaker 1: like a prostitute's hotel room, because you never know who's

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Speaker 1: gonna come walking through the door. It could be the

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Speaker 1: fucking mayor, you know. So I think it's one of

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Speaker 1: those cases where it's like, you start this a real

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Speaker 1: investigation into Epstein and all of his activities and who

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Speaker 1: came walking through that door over the years, and and

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Speaker 1: and I guarantee you that, I mean, it's names were

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Speaker 1: all very familiar with. Yeah, we'll seemore as as more

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Speaker 1: comes out. It is out time that they launched this though.

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Speaker 1: Um they launched this probe to see what exactly, And

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Speaker 1: it's probably because of that UM that piece again, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of the article, but I

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Speaker 1: believe it was just on it. It was the Miami

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Speaker 1: Herald that published that big investor. It was like a

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Speaker 1: five part, six part investigative piece, um dot with a

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Speaker 1: fire under the assets it's right here. Justice Department opens

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Speaker 1: probe into Jeffrey Epstein plea deal. It's from the Miami Herald,

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Speaker 1: Julie Brown. She was the one that did the original um,

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Speaker 1: the original piece on or not the original piece, but

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Speaker 1: the big long form investigative article about Yeah. And the

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Speaker 1: investigation is into Secretary of Labor alex A Costa. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's being launched as a request by Senator Ben

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Speaker 1: Sass of Nebraska. So we see what happens from here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just for instance, just a matter for instance,

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Speaker 1: we went through the much the contentious election, everyone throwing

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Speaker 1: dirt at everyone else, I mean Donald Trump allegedly or

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Speaker 1: his his people's you know, Roger Stone and such, going

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Speaker 1: to wiki leaks, trying to get the Russians to dig

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Speaker 1: up dirt on the Democrats. I mean, dirty games were

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Speaker 1: being played left and right. But we never heard during

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Speaker 1: the twenties sixteen campaign. How come no one brought up

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Speaker 1: the two candidates are both associated with Jeffrey Epstein. How

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Speaker 1: we never heard that that was never mentioned. I mean

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Speaker 1: it would probably dig up, i mean, or build to

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Speaker 1: some crazy conspiracy stuff, as he said, because it's on

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Speaker 1: the verge of that. Because then you know, there's the

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Speaker 1: whole pizza Gate thing that all these politicians or pedophiles.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't know if you know, Bill Clinton

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Speaker 1: or anything was engaged in pedophilia, and if you start

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Speaker 1: to make those accusations, and personally I doubt he was,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, everything we know about Bill it seems

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Speaker 1: that he likes grown women a lot, although Michael Winsky

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Speaker 1: was you know, significantly younger, not not a child. But again,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's speculative, but I mean, whatever the cases, um,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a conspiracy theory. I you know, Bill

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Speaker 1: and Hillary and Donald they all knew Epstein. They all

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Speaker 1: traveled in the same circles, you know, and that was

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Speaker 1: never that was never brought up during the campaign, and

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Speaker 1: it's very rarely brought up to this day. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll see if there's any um any more that comes

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Speaker 1: out from this, and if there is, it's gonna be,

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Speaker 1: as you said, pretty explosive because of who's connected with

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Speaker 1: him and and our president as well. As I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: it'll it'll never all come out because it would probably collapse,

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Speaker 1: like half of our government, you know, if like all

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Speaker 1: the you know, unseemly details started to be revealed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well check out the article. It's a Justice Department opens

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Speaker 1: probe into Jeffrey Epstein plea deal. You can also check

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Speaker 1: out your old article right at the news rep. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My mind was I wrote like what in or something

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Speaker 1: like that, and it was. It had a pretty explosive title.

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Speaker 1: It's like the power elites billionaire pedophile blackmail network, I

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Speaker 1: think was the title of the article. But you're a

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Speaker 1: nice um kind of web drawn right by? Didn't um

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Speaker 1: Jason Knetser do a graphic with like a web of

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Speaker 1: all the people? No? No, no, that was a different,

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Speaker 1: different blackmail network that I wrote about. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wrote that article a while back. I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: connect some of these dots. I'm watching this video you

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Speaker 1: still got playing here. You know, Epstein's also friends with

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Speaker 1: who's that film director? Umky No, not Polanski, the other

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Speaker 1: one who's accused of molesting the step daughter. Um he's

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Speaker 1: famous Allen Palace with Woody Allen. Yeah, definitely, Uh, some

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Speaker 1: weird stuff. Yeah, so there's there's video on here as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you see this how they um Epstein had uh

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Speaker 1: pictures of child pornography on the wall. So when you

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Speaker 1: walked into his house. You committed a federal crime right

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Speaker 1: off the bat by by viewing child pornography, So you're

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Speaker 1: compromised from the very beginning the second you walk through

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Speaker 1: the door. Like he had created a system like to

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Speaker 1: game the law, like he knew exactly what he was doing.

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Speaker 1: Like the flight logs for the Loreita Express to the

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Speaker 1: Pedophile Island. He had Bill Clinton and all these other

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Speaker 1: names in the flight logs, and that's intentional, so he

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Speaker 1: can push that information out as like a as like

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Speaker 1: a fucking hip check and say, ay, like, don't push

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Speaker 1: this issue because we have records. This stuff is gonna

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Speaker 1: come out. But uh yeah, with that, well let's get

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Speaker 1: over to uh something completely different. Markya Blanca really glad

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Speaker 1: that Mark reached out because, as I mentioned earlier during

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Speaker 1: the intro, Jim Morris is a mutual friend of the show,

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Speaker 1: and Mark has written several books on Vietnam, the latest

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Speaker 1: of which is Vietnam Bouchi Warriors of Word and Film.

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Speaker 1: And the interest think thing about this book is, as

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Speaker 1: you say early on in the book, there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: books written about Vietnam from the journalists who are there,

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Speaker 1: but this is about the men who served and reported

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Speaker 1: on the ground what was happening in Vietnam and and

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Speaker 1: also to give some background on on Mark for the audience.

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Speaker 1: Mark also served as a chief warrant officer in the

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Speaker 1: California State Military Reserve and also served as a public

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Speaker 1: affairs officer. So great to have you on the show

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Speaker 1: and excited to dig into this book and I think

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Speaker 1: our audience is really gonna love it. Well, it's great

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Speaker 1: to be with you. And uh, you mentioned Jim Morris,

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Speaker 1: and I also know from looking at soft Radio you've

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Speaker 1: also mentioned another room by the late Jerry Yellen. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm honored to be a great company and thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me on. Thank you so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jerry Yellen was great and I think and I think

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Speaker 1: that may have been his last interview when Brandon interviewed him,

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Speaker 1: because just a few short months after that he passed

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Speaker 1: away unfortunately, but I mean at a older age, but

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Speaker 1: truly a hero, you know, flying the final combat mission

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Speaker 1: over Japan. Yes, and and uh and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not for or two generation, but my father was

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Speaker 1: and uh and as was Jerry and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever met a greater, better storyteller

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Speaker 1: and one you know who with Oh god, I mean

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Speaker 1: it just chokes me up to think about some of

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Speaker 1: the great stories. Uh. He told not only me, but

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Speaker 1: two members of the Military Writer Society of America several

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Speaker 1: years ago. That's so cool. Yeah, Mark, do you want

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Speaker 1: to tell us a little bit about your book? And

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Speaker 1: I think maybe a good place to start is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people probably don't know that the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Military has its own combat correspondence or or combat journalists

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Speaker 1: that go out. We have combat photographers. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: had one that we took out on operations in Iraq

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Speaker 1: and to thousand nine. Um. I was wondering if you

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Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about that for you know,

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Speaker 1: the wider audience that perhaps they're not even aware that

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Speaker 1: this profession exists. With pleasure, Yeah, I I sort of

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Speaker 1: fell into that knowledge myself, to be honest, I had,

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Speaker 1: you know, through a rather securitist route gotten into journalism.

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Speaker 1: I was writing travel pieces and sort of slid into

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Speaker 1: military journalism and as such began to meet many of

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Speaker 1: the civilian press corps that covered Vietnam, and through them,

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Speaker 1: UM met uh in In in my case, two Marines

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Speaker 1: who had been combat correspondence in Vietnam. When I had

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Speaker 1: the pleasure of meeting UH in Washington, d C. At

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Speaker 1: when the book Requiem for the Photographers who died in

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War and French Indo China War, there was

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Speaker 1: a celebration for that book in Washington, and that generalman's

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Speaker 1: name was Steve Stephen. Steve was the first Stars and

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Speaker 1: Stripes reporter in Vietnam, going way back to nineteen and

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Speaker 1: sixty two. UM. And he was you know he was

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Speaker 1: and is a US Marine. Another is a good friend

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Speaker 1: of mine by the name of Sergio ortisse Um. And

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Speaker 1: people who have studied the Vietnam War UH and the

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Speaker 1: coverage of it, know that there were four deans of

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Speaker 1: the Civilian Press Corps, Larry Burrows from England, Henri Uit

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Speaker 1: or u a I my French is correct, who was

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Speaker 1: half Vietnamese, half French Japanese stringer for Newsweek. I believe

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Speaker 1: it was case of Burrowshamamoto, and an American named Kent Potter.

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Speaker 1: Kent was actually in the National Guard UH and wanted

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Speaker 1: to cover Vietnam, but they wouldn't let him, and so

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Speaker 1: he took a leave from the Guard and came over

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Speaker 1: and was a stringer for U P I. All four

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Speaker 1: of those guys were shot down in what was called

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Speaker 1: app Operation Lampsun seven one nine in louds and Sergio,

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Speaker 1: who's a great photographer and writer in his own right, uh,

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Speaker 1: just by chance took the last photo of all four

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Speaker 1: of those general live. Uh. Sergio and I are are

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Speaker 1: good friends to this day. And it just went from there.

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Speaker 1: Um My. The as far as writing about the military journalists,

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, the book probably all told to

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Speaker 1: maybe eight or nine years to complete, just one interview

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Speaker 1: after another. Um and uh, you know, then I decided

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Speaker 1: to put it in book form. But yeah, all five services, um,

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Speaker 1: including the US Coastguard people, uh, labor under the misnomer

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Speaker 1: that the Coast Guard only stays close to American shores

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Speaker 1: at least I don't know about today, but at least

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Speaker 1: in Vietnam. And that wasn't the case. I. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I know of one Coast guardsman. He wasn't a military

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Speaker 1: journalist who joined the Coast Guard to you know, fulfill

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Speaker 1: this obligation to serve And the next thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: he got orders for Vietnam. So all five of our

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Speaker 1: services had combat photographers combrat cameraman, including not only still

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Speaker 1: photographers but mo pick as they call it motion picture,

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Speaker 1: as well as those who who wrote for the likes

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Speaker 1: of Stars and Stripes, uh, and their various based newsletters

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Speaker 1: and newspapers. Yeah, some of the more famous ones. I

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Speaker 1: don't think there were combat correspondents, but I mean Hunter S.

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Speaker 1: Thompson and Al Gore were both military reporters at various times. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And I tried to get out Bore three times to

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Speaker 1: be a part of the book, and I never heard

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Speaker 1: me personally, but his uh, his underling in Nashville, where

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Speaker 1: he's based, said Mr Gore is not interested. Leave me alone.

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Speaker 1: He didn't say that, but he just he just repeatedly

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Speaker 1: said that Mr Gore is not interested at this time.

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Speaker 1: And so I gave up. Another one who you know,

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Speaker 1: is well known, owned both in the civilian and military cycles,

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Speaker 1: is our circles rather is Al Rockoff, who of course

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Speaker 1: was immortalized in the film The Killing Fields about you know,

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Speaker 1: the fall to communism into the Khmer Rouge and Cambodia

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Speaker 1: in the late seventies. Al is not in my book.

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Speaker 1: I believe I tried to get him at one point

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Speaker 1: and didn't hear back but he's certainly mentioned by those

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Speaker 1: who who went out on missions with him in my book,

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Speaker 1: a couple of different guys, So he does have a

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Speaker 1: presence there. How does a soldier or airman or marine

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Speaker 1: walk onto this job and what are their responsibilities as

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Speaker 1: opposed to say, a civilian journalist. Yeah, that's a great question.

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Speaker 1: Most of the of the thirty three or thirty four, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know guys that I interviewed UM went to din folks,

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Speaker 1: the Defense Information School, which, while it's based at Fort Mead,

401
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: Maryland now, was based at Fort Benjamin Harris in Indiana

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Speaker 1: back in the day. Many of them came to you know,

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Speaker 1: their mos is UM through previous experience working for newspapers UM.

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Speaker 1: Others as you know, as little experiences working on their

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Speaker 1: high school annuals UM, and uh you know, and hometown

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Speaker 1: newspapers and others just you know, hill into it. As

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Speaker 1: I talked about high school annuals, I'm reminded of one

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Speaker 1: of the guys in the book, my my friend, uh

409
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Speaker 1: Frank Lee, who who figures that he is probably the

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Speaker 1: only Chinese American marine to have been a combat correspondent

411
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Speaker 1: in Vietnam, and and then he delineates it, he said,

412
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Speaker 1: if it's not that I'm probably the only Chinese American

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Speaker 1: marine combat correspondent from Mississippi who who ended up snapping

414
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Speaker 1: mopick Um. And uh tells a great story. And I'm

415
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: I'm going off in a direction here, but but a

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00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: funny story about how, at some point in his time

417
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: in his life, always from Mississippi, his parents decided to

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00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: pick up a move to l A. And as circumstances

419
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: would have it, he ended up in what was then

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Speaker 1: predominantly Jewish Fairfax High School in l A. And got himself,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the yearbook committee, and they made it

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Speaker 1: his job to go from class to class to sell

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Speaker 1: the yearbook. So what does he do. He puts on

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Speaker 1: a Jewish namica and he goes from class to class

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Speaker 1: only the yearbook. And that year Fairfax High schooled more

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Speaker 1: annuals than any year in Fairfax High School's history. So

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Speaker 1: he says, so I imagine this, Uh, this profession takes

428
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: a certain amount of entrepreneurial spirit. Then yeah, and and

429
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we're talking about about guy and

430
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: I keep referring to guys because there were no uh,

431
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: there were plenty of female uh you know, correspondence writers

432
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,719
Speaker 1: and photographers. Fewer female photographers, but there were some, one

433
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: of whom is in my book because I had a

434
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: special section reserved in the back for the civilian reporters,

435
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: three or four of the well known ones. But these

436
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: were these were guys who, you know, they didn't just

437
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: go out in the field with a camera or a

438
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: flora or a you know, a pad of paper and

439
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: a pen. They were they were you know, humping uh

440
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: in the boonies, as the Vietnam bests used to say,

441
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: with full rut sacks and an M sixteen and a

442
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: side arm of forty five. Um, you know, in addition

443
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: to being loaded down, say with with camera equipment and

444
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: and one of the things that you know, I came

445
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: away with um understanding is that they were often in

446
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 1: a position where, uh, you know, it was they had

447
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: to make a decision do I shoot my M sixteen

448
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: or do I shoot my camera? You know, do I

449
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: snaff a photo? And yeah, one of the guys in

450
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: the book, Marvin Wolf, another acquaintance of mine, talks about

451
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: how when he's asked about Vietnam, he said, yeah, I

452
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: I you know, I shot hundreds, usually at two fifty

453
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: a s A and UH. Of course, Marv went on

454
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: to write several books, among them uh A, a shared

455
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: book with when kal Ki, the former premier of South Vietnam,

456
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: called UH, my fight to save the Buddhist child, my

457
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: fight to save the Vietnam. But yeah, it takes a lot.

458
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: And another interesting phenomena that I found, chiefly from the

459
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: photographers is how and I'm not sure if the photographer

460
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: who went out with you in Iraq, you know, said

461
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: the same, I'd be surprised because I've I know several

462
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan. It's I teach English and creative writing

463
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: at Columbia College of Missouri. They have satellite campuses on

464
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: military bases all over the country and down at Gitmo

465
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: um and I teach at the one at the Joint

466
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: Forces Training Base out here at Los Alamidas, California. Anyway,

467
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: I've asked, you know, some of them UH, and had

468
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: talked with some of the photographers and their units whether

469
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: they felt the same. I e. A lot of the

470
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: Vietnam guys actually felt protected behind the viewfinders, and the

471
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: Iraq vets that I've talked to said no, not at all.

472
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: The Vietnam guys several of them, you know, did did

473
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: have that opinion that somehow that you know, they were

474
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: separated from the action, you know, albeit with bullets flying overhead. Uh.

475
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: They're an amazing bunch of people. And is there I'm

476
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out the difference between say a

477
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: civilian journalist and military journalists that are they there simply

478
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: to record for the sake of history, um? Or are

479
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: they expected to contextualize like many journalists do today? Right?

480
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: And I apologize because I didn't know. I was trying

481
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: to get around Okay, I didn't go there. Okay, UM,

482
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a question to ponder because

483
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that there's just one answer to that.

484
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: Based on the people I've talked to. In the general sense,

485
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: I would say that while um, you know, the civilian media,

486
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: the press, you know, whether they set out to or not,

487
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: is the debate, you know, basically recorded the horrors of

488
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: the war, um. The military media, the writers, the photographers

489
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: and the mo pick guys you know, of course ended

490
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: up doing the same. But I believe that the difference

491
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: in their mission was to their missions were to to

492
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: to base sically also show the good things and the

493
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: great things and the brave things that our troops were doing. UM.

494
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: I think if you if you line the coverage up,

495
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, military versus civilian, there's a lot more positive

496
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: coverage that you'll find of the guys who were in

497
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: uniform than there was for the civilian. And I know

498
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: that there's an argumentum, among several Vietnam veterans that you know,

499
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: hell it was it was the media that lost the

500
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: Vietnam War. Number one. I don't think we lost the

501
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: Vietnam War. I've been to Vietnam three times since the war,

502
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: and the first time was fifteen years after. UH. And

503
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: I saw the abject poverty that you know, Communism forced

504
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: those people to live under. UM And UH, you know, UH.

505
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: Number two, I'm not going to take that position. I know,

506
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, I you know, I have several civilian press

507
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: who are in Vietnam who I consider acquaintances and friends,

508
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: and you know, I can't conceive that they deliberately set

509
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: out to make us look like the bad guys. There

510
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: was plenty of stuff that was going on that was

511
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: bad north of the seventeenth Parallel that you know, was

512
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: not covered by our civilian press, but in part because

513
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: probably they haven't a meant their lives if they had

514
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: gone the seventeenth parallel. So so I understand that, but

515
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: that would be you know, my response, it's I think,

516
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: just to interject very quickly, I think it's a common trope. Um,

517
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, whenever we we fight an unpopular war or

518
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: a war what we're seeing to not win that in

519
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: order to regain some national dignity, we want to blame

520
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: somebody else as opposed to you know, um, you know,

521
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: blaming the media or or blaming some other you know,

522
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: other power. And it's very typical, I think when when

523
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: these things happen and we try to say, no, it

524
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: wasn't because of the decisions that general's made, It wasn't

525
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: because of the decisions politicians made. No, it was the media.

526
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: It was because some guy came and wrote about what

527
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: he saw in Vietnam that as if that's really what

528
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: lost us the war. I mean, that's just kind of silly.

529
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: I exactly right. And I mentioned Marv Wolf before, and

530
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: one of the things that in his chapter that he

531
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: mentions is and he's a guy who was he was

532
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: with the first air cab at a Kai in the

533
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: Central Highlands. He was a p I O who tells

534
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: some harrowing stories on his own and some funny ones too. Um.

535
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: But one of the things that he says in his

536
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: chapter is you can hardly blame the media for a

537
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: failed military policy. So uh and I think that there's

538
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: something to be said for that at the time, because

539
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: as we all know, you know, especially in Vietnam and

540
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: especially in the beginning, our hands were tied. You know,

541
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: there were policies to understand, such as don't shoot until

542
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: you're fired upon. Well, how in the heck are you

543
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: going to you know, to to to win a war

544
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: with that attitude? So anyway, you know, what were some

545
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: of the more memorable stories that came out of you know,

546
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: your research. Were there any that were particular surprise, particularly

547
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: surprising to you, um, that came out during these interviews?

548
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: You know, I've mentioned some of them. Um. You know,

549
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say surprising, because I've studied and I've written

550
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: about the journalists for so many years for different publications

551
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: such as Stars and Stripes itself, Army Times. UH. I

552
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: was a contributing writer to UH the Amvets publication called

553
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: American Veteran for about fifteen years. And I often strove

554
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: to you know, to write about journalists, uh, you know,

555
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: such as going back to World War Two, Andy Rooney

556
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: and Ernie Pyle. Um. Some of the more memorable ones,

557
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: I think, um, you know, we're Steve Stebvens, Frank Lee,

558
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: Marve Wolf. Ken Hackman, who was an Air Force combat photographer, Um,

559
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: you know, was one that that I guess who you know,

560
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: ran the gamut of all kinds of missions, you know,

561
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: both on the ground and in the air. And I've

562
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: got a short passage from his chapter. Do you mind

563
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: if I read it real quick, so we're talking about,

564
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, Ken Hackman, U s Air Force uh combat productor.

565
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: He recalls one such mission, flying back seat and an

566
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: F four out of the name. It was supposed to

567
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: be a three ship me and one F four photographing

568
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: the other two F fours. There was a problem with

569
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: one of them, so only two of us took off.

570
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: Was supposed to be an easy mission. Not much happening

571
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: until we got airborne, and then the local F a

572
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: C Forward Air Command operators told us we were being

573
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: sent to support an F a C along the coast.

574
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: We had bad weather, cloudy with the ceiling of only

575
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: eight hundred feet. I was in the lead aircraft. At

576
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: one point, the pilot of Hackman's plane told his wingman,

577
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: we're going out over the ocean. There are no mountains

578
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: to run into there, and then we can drive in

579
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: and see the target. The f a C told the

580
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: pilot that the target was at church at the apex

581
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: of two rivers that was being used to store AMMO,

582
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: and he didn't want to mark the target with the

583
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: smoke rocket. My pilot said, you either market or we

584
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: aren't going in. Hackman recalled they were carrying five hundred

585
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: pound bombs, and the pilot of Hackman's jet started heading

586
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: in and the altitude of blessed An eight hundred feet.

587
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: The pilot told Hackman, I hate this. They can shoot

588
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: us down with rifles. My silent reaction was I don't

589
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: need to know that. Then there were no pictures to

590
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: be made. Hackman said, I'm sitting there looking at the

591
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: bomb on our wing and then it was gone. You know,

592
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean being put in a situation like that to me,

593
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it's Bravado plus you know, Bravado

594
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: on stair rooids. Basically, yeah, I mean it goes into

595
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: the whole mentality of some people think these guys are fearless,

596
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: and it's more just you know, they have to block

597
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: out that fear as as you're saying, you know, I'm

598
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: curious just looking at your resume, looking at your website,

599
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: which is war stories press dot com, and what you've

600
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: done throughout your career. A huge part of your career

601
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: has been devoted to writing about Vietnam. What keeps you

602
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: writing about this subject? Is it just that there's always

603
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,479
Speaker 1: more to discover? Um? Well, you know, uh, in part,

604
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: you know you mentally. We've been talking about our mutual

605
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: friend Jim Morris, and Jim was fond of saying that

606
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: that I write about, you know, people in places, uh,

607
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: you know that have been largely unturned. I think it

608
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: is his word. Um, and I'm going back. You know,

609
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: Vietnam was the war of my generation, and uh, it

610
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: was a war that I did fight. Um. I was

611
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: one of those who was, you know, safely in university

612
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: with what we call the two S deferment. And then

613
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: the lottery came in in sixty nine and I had

614
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: a high number, which, of course at the time I

615
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: breathed a sigh of relief over but as a you know,

616
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: as an older man now and even going back, you know,

617
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: thirty years, I feel as though, uh number one, that

618
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: I missed the event of our generation and number two

619
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: because of that, you know, and I wanted to make

620
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: up for it and still want to make up for

621
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: it in some small way by writing about those uh

622
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: guys and women, uh you know who who were in Vietnam,

623
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: in in in whatever capacity they were in. So it's

624
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: it's it's my mission, really. Uh, it's a it's one

625
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: that's driven me for for many years. Um it uh

626
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: in a sense you mentioned that I was a p

627
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: A O with what it's called the California State Military

628
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: Reserve California. They were, they are a support brigade to

629
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: the California National Guard, and when I was in I

630
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: was fortunate enough to be shipped over to U. S.

631
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: Army Reserve unit that was on post at the Joint

632
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: Forces Training Base the sixty third Regional Readiness Command to

633
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 1: write stories and in some instances, uh take uh photos

634
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: of the people like yourself, the guys and the gals

635
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: who were going over to oh I F and O

636
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: E F and you know, with a little help from

637
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: the men above coming home safely. Um, I think in

638
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: some small way, I may you know, I attempted to

639
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: make up for that and did it for eight years

640
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: until I decided to get out and devote my time

641
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: to to to writing books. Um. And it's a mission

642
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: will continue by the current project I'm working on is

643
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: U is a book about Armed Forces Radio Vietnam. Uh.

644
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: You know, of course when I say that, everybody thinks

645
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: about Robin Williams and a Crown. Now we're going to

646
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: be portrayed in the movie Good Morning Vietnam. And unfortunately,

647
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: uh you know uh uh, Adrian and Robin both passed

648
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: away before I've been able to complete the book, so

649
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: they'll be mentioned, of course. But that's my current mission. Again,

650
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: it's Vietnam related. UM. I just want to do my

651
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: part uh two, in some way make up for the

652
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: service that I should have uh enlisted into back when

653
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: I was a much younger guy. Well, speaking of that,

654
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious because you talked to these uh,

655
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: these gentlemen who served as young men in Vietnam and

656
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: interviewed them, you know, forty years, forty some odd years

657
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: after the fact, Um, how do they feel about the war?

658
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean, do they have reflections, um, you know, in

659
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: retrospect about how they felt about it at the time

660
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: versus how they feel about it now. I'm just curious,

661
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: excuse me if there were any any sorts of conclusions

662
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: or reflections, um that came across in these interviews. You know,

663
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: they ran the gamut. I would say that most most

664
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: of them now feel very positive about the service. They

665
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: feel that they really made a contribution, um. And in

666
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: bringing the war home boat to you know, whoever was

667
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: privy to military publications and military you know, the ability

668
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: to see photos and and and motion picture that they provided. Um. Uh.

669
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: I don't you know, have any recollection of anybody feeling, um,

670
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: you know, negative about the war. You know, a couple

671
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: of them basically are very accepting of of you know,

672
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: both positions. The war was should never have happened and uh,

673
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: you know versus you know, I'm honored that I had

674
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: the chance to serve my country, um And so UM,

675
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, percentage wise, if I could

676
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: lay it out and give you a percentage, and thank god,

677
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: I'm not a map major, um, that most of them

678
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: feel feel, you know that it's a very important part

679
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: of their lives. And they're glad that they served. UM.

680
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: And I think that there's some sense that, you know,

681
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: not only what that what they did was worthwhile, but

682
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: that the war was a you know, a noble mission. Uh,

683
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: certainly for for them, you know, if not for the country.

684
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: It's interesting that that that's a whole other side, a

685
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: whole other perspective that doesn't really get told about the

686
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: Vietnam War. Um. In most cases. Uh, in most cases,

687
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: what we hear is, you know, the war apology, UM,

688
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: how Vietnam was the death of the American dream. There's

689
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: that was that big documentary on Vietnam that has done

690
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: documentary and some of my some of my friends who

691
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: served in Vietnam were kind of they were kind of

692
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: angry about it. Quite frankly, I gotta tell you, I

693
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: didn't serve in Vietnam, but all of my friends, for

694
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: the most part today are Vietnam veterans. I've been to Vietnam,

695
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, three times, loust Ones Cambodia once as a reporter.

696
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: And I was angry too, I'll be honest with you.

697
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: I you know, I lasted I think the first fifteen

698
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: minutes of episode one, and it was like, oh, this again.

699
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 1: You know, we've been through this and a lot of people,

700
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: including some of the guys that I interviewed, interviewed, UM,

701
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, felt that Burns and Company left so much out,

702
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: mainly you know, the South Vietnamese position. Okay, Now I

703
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: have a you know, a full disclosure. I have a

704
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: sort of a vested interest in in in that because

705
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: number one, I married into the Vietnamese culture. UM. I

706
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: speak a little bit of the language after studying it

707
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: at U c l A two years. Uh, and and

708
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: have you know, uh basically dove into the history of

709
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: the country, going back not only to our war, but

710
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: the French War and and even before. UM. And there's

711
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: my understanding is that there's you know, one interview and

712
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: it's very short and UM. The you know, that's just

713
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: not there. We were talking earlier about about the civilian press,

714
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: and you know my comment that there are people who

715
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: who feel that the civilian press quote unquote lost the

716
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: war for US in Vietnam. One of the and I

717
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: have I have been vocal about this one of the

718
00:44:54,680 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: failings I think of that the civilian press. UM. And

719
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: I can sort of understand it because like a soldier

720
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: coming home from war, I can see how a a

721
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: a civilian photographer or or or writer would feel the same,

722
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: you know, the burnout factor. I get that, But I'm often,

723
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: you know, hearing myself questioning where were these guys who

724
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: were so willing to do the great job that they

725
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: did while the war was going on? When after Saigon

726
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: fell and the communist you know, came in in tanks

727
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: um in uh into Saigon on April thirty, nineteen seventy five,

728
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: and thereafter, where were these guys to report on the

729
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: atrocities that occurred to the people of South Vietnam, many

730
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: of them former soldiers. Um. I have a brother in

731
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: law who was a South Vietnamese Marine. He was, I

732
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: believe a warrant officer himself, and he was subjected to

733
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: six years in a Communist re education camp, kept escape,

734
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: kept getting caught, and then got out as a boat

735
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: person to Malaysia and then settled in Canada. Um. The

736
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: only person of any renowned that I know of, who

737
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: who who who basically registered her feelings about that was

738
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 1: not a reporter of Vietnam, but it was the folk

739
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: singer Joan Bayez, you know, one of the protesters of

740
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: the Vietnam war, whose husband, whose husband at the time,

741
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: David Harris, her ex husband, actually went to jail for

742
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: turning in his, you know, his his draft card. Uh.

743
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 1: For a time, she took out a full page ad

744
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: in the New York Times decrying the atrocities that the

745
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: North Vietnamese communists were basically inflaming the South Vietnamese people with.

746
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: And to my knowledge, I don't I don't know of

747
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: any uh you know, of the Bauchi, the press, the

748
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: journalists who covered uh, you know, Vietnam for our side,

749
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: so to speak of who spoke up about that. And

750
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: it hurts. Yeah, now, it definitely does. And I think

751
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: part of it at least is related to, you know,

752
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: as Americans, we have an infatuation with ourselves as Americans.

753
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: It's actually kind of like a narcissism. I was just saying,

754
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: it's kind of we kind of have a narcissism in

755
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: thinking that, you know, America is the center of the universe. Um,

756
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: and a lot of times we don't report on or

757
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: we don't focus on what it's going on elsewhere in

758
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: the world that has nothing to do really with Americans,

759
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, Communist atrocities or other sorts of war atrocities

760
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: that happen, and and if it doesn't involve America somehow, Um,

761
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes there's a an effort to make

762
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: a round peg fitness square hole to try to make

763
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: America responsible, or failing that, we just don't report it

764
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: at all because it doesn't have an American connection. Um.

765
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's my take on it. Yeah, there's a

766
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: certain degree of pump plus city, isn't there in regard?

767
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: I mean it goes back to the whole image of

768
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: excuse me, the uh, the ugly American traveler, you know,

769
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: who comes to a country and just expects them wherever

770
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: they are to speak English. And I as as someone

771
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: who is has taught English for I don't know forty

772
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: seven years now. Um, you know, I guess you could say.

773
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: The sad fact is that it's true. So wow. So

774
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: this is a it's an amazing book. I mean, are

775
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: there any other stories or anything else that came out

776
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: of this that you really think we should hit upon?

777
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I absolutely there. There is a section

778
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: in the back of the book and and and by

779
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: the way, I'm uh, you know, I'd be remiss if

780
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: I didn't say how happy I am that case made

781
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: publishers based in the UK but also in Philadelphia. Um

782
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: not only published the book, but is in this with

783
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: me in a joint effort to get the book out,

784
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,919
Speaker 1: you know, in as many mediums as we can, such

785
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: as this one. Great people whom I would encourage any

786
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: of the military writers who might be listening to this

787
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: too to approach about about your books. Um. I you know,

788
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, I would say that

789
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I included a section in the back

790
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: that deals with about three or four of the civilians. Um.

791
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: One of whom is Eddie Adams. Eddie Adams was was

792
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: most noted for taking the picture of General Lawan who

793
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: uh you know with a lady Smith and Wesson Uh

794
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: special shot a be a Kong in the head outside

795
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: of a Buddhist temple a jolan and everybody. Yeah yeah,

796
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: um and Eddie. You know a lot of people don't

797
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: know about Eddie. First of all, he was a marine

798
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: in the Korean War. He was the first one that

799
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: I heard personally at a lecture here in l A

800
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: many years ago talk about he felt protected behind the viewfinder.

801
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: Um and um uh you know what a lot of

802
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: people don't know about that photo? Is that Um, General Luan?

803
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: Who who shot that viet Cong? Well, moments before that happened,

804
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 1: that same viet Cong had shot at point blank range

805
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: his lieutenant General Lewan's lieutenant lieutenant's wife and his children. Um, yeah,

806
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 1: number one, number two. Eddie felt remorse for having taken

807
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: that photo number one because he he felt that it's

808
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: sort of you know, pegged him for the rest of

809
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: his life, and most importantly, he felt that he had

810
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: ruined General Luan's life. The two of them were fast

811
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: friends until I think Luan passed away first, and Eddie

812
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: felt that he had relegated Luan to the life of

813
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: owning a pizza parlor in Virginia. Luan, for his part,

814
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: didn't feel the same, and they they had, you know,

815
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: a great friendship going while they were both alive. UM,

816
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: talk about storytellers. As we were talking about Jerry Ellen

817
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: and Jim Morris, Um, Eddie told a great story. If

818
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: I have a minature to divulge this about going down

819
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: to Havana with a reporter I believe was for the

820
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: New York Times to interview Fidel Castro and uh, you

821
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: know whoever in Castro's regime kept them hold up in

822
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: their hotel in Havana for two weeks and Castro never appeared.

823
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: And Eddie was most famous for uh, you know, I

824
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: dare not say it, but using the F word with

825
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: the second person singular whenever he was angry and um.

826
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: At one point, after two weeks, he went to the

827
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: journalist and said, you know, I've had enough. I'm going

828
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: back to New York. And the journalist you know, pleaded

829
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: with him, come on, let's stay, and he said, f you,

830
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: I'm going back to New York, which he did. A

831
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: couple of weeks later, He's in his studio in New York.

832
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: Comes a knock at the door and it's an emissary

833
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: from the Cuban mission at the u N and the

834
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: guy says, El Presidente would like to see you, Senor,

835
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: and Eddie Adams said, f you. I was down there

836
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 1: for two weeks and he never showed up. And he says, no, no, senor,

837
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 1: president would like to see you, and so Eddie Adams

838
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: grabs the reporter. They go back down. Their interview goes

839
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: on in Havana and Eddie snapping away and Fidel gets

840
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: up to leave, and Eddie says to Fidel. He says,

841
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: he says, uh, you know, Presidente, you know I haven't

842
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: taken any photos. And Castro says, well, Eddie, what have

843
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: you been doing. Castro, who by the way, speaks fluent English,

844
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: he just doesn't like he didn't like to do it,

845
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 1: you know, in public um, And Eddie says, he says

846
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: to him, well, he says, I'd like to get you

847
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: in your element. What say you? And me go jogging

848
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: down on the beach, and Fidel says to him, Eddie,

849
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: Havanna has many beaches. I have a better idea. I'll

850
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: take you to where I go duck hunting, but you'd

851
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 1: better not tell the CIA where it is. So they go,

852
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: they go off and go duck hunting. Adams comes back

853
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: to his his New York digs, and he's looking through

854
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: photos and he finds one that someone else took of

855
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: him and Castro with a string of ducks at their feet.

856
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: So he says, what the heck? He says, I'd like

857
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 1: to get the autograph. I'd like to get Fiddel's autograph.

858
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: But he had no you know, premincial, you know, no

859
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: conception that he would ever get the photo back. So

860
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: he sends the photo to to castro in in in Havada.

861
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: About a month later, the photo comes back and it's

862
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 1: signed to my friend Eddie, I shot all the ducks

863
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: your friend Fidel. That's incredible. But what year was that,

864
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: like sixty three, sixty four? Well, I don't know when

865
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: he went down I saw Eddie Adams probably, I want

866
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: to say, in the early nineteen nineties. It was at

867
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: a talk that he gave at the the American Society

868
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: of of of Photographers a s MP. That's not what

869
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 1: it stands for, but I'll look it up and i'll

870
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: tell you when we get off Mike here. But anyway,

871
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: it was the talk that he gave it the Hollywood

872
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 1: Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood that I was, uh, you know,

873
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: invited to. And when he went down to to to

874
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, photograph Fidel was probably sometime just just before that,

875
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: so it wasn't going back during the war at all.

876
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: That's a crazy story. Yeah, and uh and then of

877
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: course another would be another famous photographer, the Vietnamese photographer, uh,

878
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: you know Nick Utt, who took the picture of Kim Fouk,

879
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: the napalm girl. Um getting to to to to know

880
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: Nick uh through through other friends. Um, and you know,

881
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him in a few years. He since

882
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: retired from the Associated Press. But um, you know, Uh,

883
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: just getting to know Nick and hear about how that

884
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: picture came about, and incidentally meeting Kim Fukuh at a

885
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: restaurant uh several years ago in in l A through Nick,

886
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: who has been one of the you know, the highlights

887
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: of my life. Unplus, she was very impressed with my Vietnamese,

888
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 1: which I yeah with me to hear the woman who's

889
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: the little girl in the photograph, I mean she she's

890
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: in the United States now, isn't she. Uh? No, she's

891
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: in Canada. What happened was she married a gentleman and

892
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 1: uh in Havannah. And by the way, she speaks fluent

893
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: Spanish from her years in Havana, where she she she

894
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: became the poster child for for the the you know,

895
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: of the Vietnam War. Yeah, and Uh she went to

896
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: pharmacy school in Havana, met another gentleman down there, Uh,

897
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: and they went to Russia for their honeymoon because they

898
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 1: didn't have many options. And coming back, the plane stopped

899
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: in Gander, Newfoundland, and they ran off the plane or

900
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: you know and uh declared, you know, political asylum in

901
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: in Uh in Canada. She um that that her husband,

902
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: by the way, is a Christian pastor uh now and

903
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 1: they live outside of Toronto. Uh and Um. It's an

904
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: endearing story about how Nick and her reconnected. First in Havana.

905
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: A good friend of mine by the name of Jim

906
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: Cacabo was the Red Cross photographer and writer in Vietnam

907
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: between sixty eight and seventy. UH covered the story for

908
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: the l A Times went down there with him, Um

909
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: with Nick, uh and he met with Kim and a

910
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: couple of years later, Uh, she was actually in Mexico

911
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: and somehow got word to Uncle Nick as she called him,

912
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: uh that you know that she was okay and hoped

913
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: to see him one day. Uh. And that has since

914
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: happened several times. Uh. You know, in in recent years.

915
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: I recall seeing her and uh maybe it was a

916
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: CNN interview, UM talking about her thoughts about the photograph

917
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: and there's you know, one part of her you know,

918
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: in the past she supported it, thought it was a

919
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: good thing, and now she looks back and I said,

920
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: she actually has changed her mind several times about how

921
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: she feels about it. Which I guess it's understandable. It's

922
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: a very haunting photograph, you're right, And it almost didn't

923
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: make the light of day because there was a question

924
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: about frontal nudity. Um. But Horst Fosse, who was the

925
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: Saigon photo of bureau chief for the Associated Press, put

926
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 1: his foot down. Uh. He got some backlash I think

927
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: from New York on it, and he put his foot

928
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: down and they sent the photo to the Tokyo Bureau,

929
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: which which ran it. Um and uh, you know the

930
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: rest of his history. Fass himself, who has since passed away,

931
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: was one of those civilian photographer extraordinaires. Nick actually started

932
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: with the a P as a young man. I think

933
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: he was sixteen years old. His brother had been an

934
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: AP photographer. He was also a well known actor in

935
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: in Vietnam who was killed. Uh. And to help support

936
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: the family, the AP gave Nick a job in the

937
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: dark room. Um. But he got stifled there after a while,

938
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: and uh he kind of you know, pleaded his case

939
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: with some of his fellow AP writers, and I think

940
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: one of them who went to back for him was

941
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: Peter Arnett, who uh, you know everyone knows from his

942
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 1: years at CNN. But Peter was in Vietnam for the

943
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,919
Speaker 1: Associated Press, and uh, you know, he's Nick out into

944
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: the street and onto the battlefields where he was able

945
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: to take some compelling shots. One of the interesting stories

946
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: about Nick is when he got to l A. Aps

947
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: first assignment for him was to cover an l A

948
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: Dodger game. He'd never seen a baseball game in his life,

949
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: and yet he was able to take some of the

950
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: most compelling photos of the game. You know, uh in

951
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: uh in the APIs H library. That's so cool. Yeah. Well,

952
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: the book is out right now. It's once again Vietnam bouch.

953
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about the meaning about you,

954
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: but but you mentioned that earlier of that that that

955
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: is what these men did, that's what they were called

956
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: ums journalists, right, huh. Yeah, Well it's out now. It's

957
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: a beautiful hardcover. You can get it on Amazon anywhere else.

958
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: I saw the photo of you at Barnes and Noble. Uh.

959
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: With it in good company with some other eight books.

960
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: And you can check out all your other books as

961
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: well for the audience, which is at War Stories Press

962
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: dot com and see all of Mark's other work. It's

963
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: been great having you on and I'm glad we were

964
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: able to do this, and it's been it's been an

965
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: honor to be with you. As I said, I feel

966
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: like I've been I'm in great company and I would

967
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: be remiss if I didn't say to you, uh, you know,

968
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: thank you for your service. Well, yeah, you can thank Jack. Jack.

969
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: You could thank Jack for a service because I you

970
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: have more service than than myself. I've I've done nothing. Jack,

971
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: thank you for your service and welcome home and thank you.

972
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: Was a Green Beret, much like Jim Morris. Yeah, I

973
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: do apologize. No, No, it's not a problem. I just

974
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: worry that the audience is gonna say that I'm a

975
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: stolen valor guy if I get thank my star. I

976
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, you know, Jim Morris is a terrific guy.

977
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: We've had him on the on the podcast a bunch

978
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,439
Speaker 1: of times, and we always run out of time because

979
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: there's about a million things I want to talk to

980
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: talk to him about. Um. But now this book is great.

981
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: I've been looking through it myself. We I have it

982
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: right here in front of me. Vietnam Bauchi. Um. I

983
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: really think people should go and pick this up and

984
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: take a look at it because as uh you mentioned earlier.

985
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean this is kind of one of those untold

986
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: stories of the Vietnam War, and uh, those are my

987
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: favorite stories to write about myself and to feature on

988
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: this podcast. Yeah. And if I could just add, the

989
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: cool thing about the book too, is every chapter is

990
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: you know, a different guy with a different story. Yeah,

991
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, it's a to my knowledge,

992
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: it's it's the first of its kind. Uh you know,

993
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: as as you said earlier, a lot of stuff out

994
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: there either about the civilian press or by the civilian press.

995
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: Um and uh you know, but but this is the

996
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: first of its of its kind that that covers uh

997
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, uh the military who who did the job

998
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: and uh you know in so doing, by the ah,

999
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: it's not across the board, but many of these military

1000
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: guys felt the camaraderie with their civilian counterparts and often

1001
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, uh shared tense with them and see rats

1002
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: and and uh you know, got the civilian guys photos

1003
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: and stories run um and uh. Though not all of

1004
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: them felt that way, most of them, in my experience

1005
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: did um. Uh. They felt that they were driving down

1006
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: that same road and they certainly faced the same dangers.

1007
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: Uh that uh you know, the military guys did. Military

1008
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: guys had two jobs. They had their m sixteens and

1009
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: they had their cameras and their pens and pads of

1010
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: paper and uh so you know, it's a miracle that

1011
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: many of them, you know, we're able to come home.

1012
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: But I'm glad they did. And uh, it's again, it's

1013
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: been an honor to be with you, guys, and I

1014
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: apologize to you and Jack again, welcome home and thanks

1015
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: for your service. Thank you, Mark, appreciate it. Thanks Mark.

1016
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the being here as an honor, and

1017
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: anytime you want to do this again, I'm happy to

1018
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: do it. Okay, guys, for sure, we'll talk to you.

1019
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely great episode there with Mark. Uh. I just didn't

1020
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 1: want to get accused of stolen valor. Every now and

1021
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: again there's there's new listeners to who assume that I

1022
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: have served. It's happened a few times because I keep

1023
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: dropping dime on you on you know, secret Facebook forums

1024
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: for stolen ball, like can you believe this? Douchebaggy and

1025
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: Scott Oh, I'll still always remember. I mean, by the way,

1026
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: leave reviews please on Apple podcasts. You know they're overwhelmingly positive,

1027
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: but my favorite negative review about me. It was always

1028
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: the guy who said, uh, you know, the producer of

1029
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: the show never served, but he acts like he was

1030
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: in a Tier one unit. Like how I don't think

1031
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: i've ever heard, you know, but that was. Yeah. I

1032
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: always remember that review. Whoever left that, that's awesome? I

1033
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: have a few. It just made me laugh. A few

1034
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: of my favorite descriptors. Uh. One guy described me as

1035
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: a bearded cash That was my I think that's my favorite.

1036
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: And there's another. There's a woman who reviewed my one

1037
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: of my novels, and she said, who do you think

1038
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: you are? Jack alone Wolf Howling at the Moon? I

1039
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 1: think I remember seeing that that was Was that for

1040
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: a gray Matter splatter? No, I think it's for direct

1041
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: action because I think I remember a review two on

1042
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: gray Matter Splatter where it said it was just that

1043
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: that they mentioned the title. They were like, gray Matter Splatter,

1044
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: Jack really grow up? Yeah, that was it was the

1045
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: same review. Yeah, she was mad. She was mad at

1046
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: me because I ruined her. You know, you know, she

1047
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: had a very I guess positive view of the military,

1048
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: and you know, the novel speaks about some of the

1049
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 1: negative things. She didn't really like that. So, yeah, I

1050
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: think some people assume that if if you know, you're

1051
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: a veteran journalist doing what you do or a fiction writer,

1052
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: that you're going to paint this picture of the military

1053
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 1: with the flag waving and yeah, you know, that's that's

1054
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: one part of the military, but that's definitely not everything.

1055
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: I've talked about this with a friend of mine and

1056
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: he he actually pointed out to me um during an

1057
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: interview that maybe he'll publish down the line. He's like,

1058
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, we get treated differently than most journalists because

1059
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: we did actually serve uh, and people have certain expectations

1060
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: of you that you're supposed to be, you know, leading

1061
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: the band, so to speak, and they get pretty piste off,

1062
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: while if you're not. You know, I've explained that to

1063
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: people too. I mean, you guys who are listeners for

1064
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: a long time know about controversies with the site, with

1065
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: stuff that we've published. But I've always said, whether it's

1066
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: you know, a sexual us sexual harassment type of thing

1067
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 1: going onto the v A that you've written about, or

1068
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: if it's a great story, you know, and it's news worthy,

1069
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:44,919
Speaker 1: you're going to write about it. Yeah. I mean, look,

1070
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: I'm I am not a public affairs officer, and I

1071
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: know that I'm I'm aware of the fact that I'm

1072
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: no longer in the military. Uh So it's not my

1073
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: job to be a spokesman for the U. S. Military.

1074
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: That's just the reality of it. And if that's who

1075
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 1: you think you are, if that's what you want to be,

1076
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: then go be a public affairs officer, that's fine. Yeah,

1077
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: And you know what sucks is, I think some of

1078
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: the loudest voices on social media are the guys who

1079
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: will criticize things that you've published. But there's plenty of

1080
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: people on the other side were like, thank you for

1081
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: publishing this, thank you for putting this out there. Yeah.

1082
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean I heard just the other day from somebody

1083
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: inside a let's just say a special operations command, and

1084
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: he was like, everyone in this office reads your website,

1085
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 1: especially when like when a big story gets dropped and

1086
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, you see everyone in the office like reading

1087
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: this story, just like nodding their heads like yep, that's

1088
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 1: pretty much how it went down. And even you know,

1089
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: you've had gold star parents reach out to you whose

1090
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: children were affected by things that we've published and said

1091
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 1: thank you for publishing. Now, all kinds of I mean,

1092
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 1: there's so many different stories I've heard from the children

1093
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: of Special Forces soldiers who contacted me because I wrote

1094
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,919
Speaker 1: about their dad and or about their mom. In one case,

1095
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: I wrote about a woman who who served on a

1096
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: No d A on Blue Light in the nineteen seventies,

1097
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: and her son found that article because he knew basically

1098
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: nothing about what his mom did in the military, and

1099
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 1: he found that article and he and he printed it

1100
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: out and he gave it to his mom on Mother's Day,

1101
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: and like it meant so much to them. Didn't you say,

1102
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 1: we're hoping to get her own. I would like, yes,

1103
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 1: she's she's doing good. I would love to have her on,

1104
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 1: and I keep twisting her arm a little bit, then

1105
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: come on, come on, please she I mean, I think

1106
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: she really is legitimately the only woman to ever serve

1107
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: on an O d A on a special Forces team,

1108
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: and she uh was brought on in a and presumably

1109
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: well not presumably, but the intention behind it was that

1110
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: she could help gather intelligence because as a woman, she

1111
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:46,439
Speaker 1: could go places and do things that a guy can't.

1112
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: We gotta get her. But she also shot guns and

1113
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: rock marched and parachuted out of airplanes and she did

1114
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 1: all the things. And this is in uh you know,

1115
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: uh Special Forces in nineteen seventy nine, seventy eight or

1116
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, seventy seven seventy eight. Uh, you know, male

1117
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: dominated organization. But I'll tell you all the guys I

1118
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: talked to about her were like she was great, Like well,

1119
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: like we were a little They definitely had their trepidations

1120
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: about it, um when they found out there was going

1121
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: to be a woman on the team. But they're like,

1122
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: now she she was value added to the team. Um,

1123
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: and they all spoke very highly of her. Well, where

1124
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: could people see that article again? I mean, the shirt's

1125
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 1: still a news or what's the title? It's about blue

1126
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 1: Light and it's like, uh, probably like a twelve part

1127
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: series that I did about blue Light. Um, so do

1128
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: you remember the TALC because let me see if I

1129
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 1: just google type in like news rep plus blue light

1130
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: and it'll come up. Um, there was so this part

1131
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: one blue Light Part one from the Special Forces America's

1132
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: first counter cars imunit. That's okay, And actually you could

1133
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: go on my my personal website, Jack Murphy Rights dot

1134
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: com and I put the PDF of the whole article

1135
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: on there perfect that you can download it and just

1136
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 1: read it in one shot. That's right, because if I

1137
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,680
Speaker 1: remember on no no this, I was gonna say that

1138
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 1: you wrote the Slayer in North group while you were

1139
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 1: in South Korea, but no, no, no, that I wrote

1140
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:11,640
Speaker 1: another article about UM Special Forces Detachment career. Remember, and

1141
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: that's like I know that that's another big one. I

1142
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 1: got twenty two part series that that was published, you know, serialized,

1143
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 1: that's from websites UM and you know, and then there's

1144
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: another one, uh multipart series about Detachment A in Berlin.

1145
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: That was another big one SF history one I worked on.

1146
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, those are the I'm really proud of

1147
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: those articles, and those are the positive things. Those are

1148
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: the cool things, good things that our military does. That

1149
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm very happy, um that I was able to write

1150
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 1: that stuff. That's great. Well, uh, speaking of you know,

1151
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: interesting guests that we've had on I just put it

1152
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: up last night as we're recording. But from what I've

1153
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: seen so far, some really great feedback of that Fred

1154
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 1: Galvin episode. UM. One of the editors at the site,

1155
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 1: even you know Nick Cough and it was praised a

1156
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: lot throughout the interview was like I'm a be biased,

1157
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 1: which you probably are. He was like, that's my favorite interview.

1158
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 1: You guys have done well. I'll see as more people

1159
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: comment on it. But I thought it was good. Yeah,

1160
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: it was a great interview I think. I mean, I'm biased,

1161
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: so I was just very happy with the conversation. But

1162
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: I thought Fred was extremely candid, especially his criticism of

1163
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: our foreign policy in the military. Is a guy who

1164
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 1: wants to continue his service, um, you know, extremely critical

1165
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 1: of what goes on. Yeah, I think Fred is, uh,

1166
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: he must be a marine through and through, because most

1167
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 1: guys who go through that, um, that whole um process

1168
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 1: of um being doubted and being called all these things

1169
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: that he was called and and essentially being persecuted. Um,

1170
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: most of those people just leave the military and disappear

1171
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 1: and you ever hear from because they're they're just so disgusted.

1172
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 1: The only person I could think of that's you know,

1173
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,959
Speaker 1: similar situation. What even worse was you know, Michael Behannah,

1174
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 1: who served time because of it. And yeah, he seems

1175
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: like a guy who's completely off the radar, and and

1176
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: he was open that he regretted, you know, joining. But

1177
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 1: but Fred is somebody who you know, wants to come

1178
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: back in. He wants back in and we need those

1179
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: type of people. I think we do. I mean the

1180
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,120
Speaker 1: importance of having people with integrity and keeping them in

1181
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 1: the ranks. I mean it can't be um underestimated. And

1182
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: you know, what Fred was saying kind of hit home

1183
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: with me because he's like, you know, the system wants

1184
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 1: the good people to get out, they want the people

1185
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: who are malleable to stay in. And that kind of

1186
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: hit me, like right fucking in the heart, because I, like,

1187
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: I got out and a lot of other people got

1188
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 1: out because we were disgusted with the things we saw.

1189
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 1: And you know, you could make the argument if we stayed,

1190
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: maybe we would we could have some kind of role

1191
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 1: in and slowly changing things. But that's one of those

1192
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: questions you get into. It's like a chicken in the

1193
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: egg conversation, like if you stay, are you perpetuating and

1194
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,720
Speaker 1: participating in a corrupt system or maybe you're making it

1195
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 1: worse because you're helping the prop it up. And I

1196
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: don't claim to have the answer to that question. I

1197
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 1: also just think you can't live with regrets like that

1198
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 1: in life. I personally try not to. I mean, it's

1199
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: a it's also like one of those things like you

1200
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: cannot be an unmotivated Special Operation soldier, which is what

1201
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: I was becoming because of the things I saw, Like

1202
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: you have to be a highly motivated Green Beret or

1203
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: ranger or whoever you are. And I was one of

1204
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,600
Speaker 1: those people. Like getting to the point where I was,

1205
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 1: I was gonna become that crusty old uh sergeant first

1206
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 1: class that's grumpy walking around with my cup of coffee

1207
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: in one hand and a cigarette, just bitching and moaning

1208
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 1: about everything all day. And like that's not good for

1209
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 1: me as a person, and that wouldn't be good for

1210
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: the unit either, you know, I would be I'd be counterproductive. Yeah,

1211
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 1: I mean at the team room parties, people have asked

1212
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: me who didn't serve? Or people have said to me

1213
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: as well, who didn't serve? That I've met at team

1214
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: room parties for you know, when we were doing those

1215
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: in Vegas, they're like, oh, you know every day or right,

1216
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 1: not joined the military and and that's why they love

1217
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 1: our site and one of the podcast I don't know,

1218
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 1: I don't really share those feelings. I I just don't

1219
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 1: think you can live every day with regret I did

1220
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: something different. I don't know what would have happened. You know,

1221
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I would have died like a lot of

1222
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: people would have. You know what, why regret the life

1223
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: that I'm living now? And uh yeah, you know I

1224
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 1: do think those people. If if you do feel that

1225
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: way and you feel like you didn't get to do UM,

1226
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,679
Speaker 1: you know what you should have done at that point

1227
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: for your country. You can always volunteer. There's plenty of

1228
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 1: there's plenty of use for all of us. Also, you know,

1229
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 1: be careful what you wish for. I mean, you could

1230
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 1: be one of those guys that, like you said, get

1231
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 1: killed or you know, you you get limbs blown off

1232
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 1: and you come back with PTSD and t b I

1233
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 1: and you know, guys suffering with you know, joblessness and

1234
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 1: homelessness and and there's plenty of guys who need help

1235
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: from people who took another path and and could help

1236
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: these guys. Whether you want to volunteer to be a

1237
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 1: hospital or UM, you know, an anything else. I mean,

1238
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 1: there's plenty of nonprofits out there that we've highlighted on

1239
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: this show that that could use those type of people. UM. Anyway,

1240
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: wrapping things up here, be sure to check out Create Club.

1241
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: We have different tiers of membership depending on how prepared

1242
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 1: you want to be and gift options are available as well.

1243
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: All those guys that hear from the load out room

1244
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: and the people at the site who are a part

1245
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: of Create Club are working on putting together great year

1246
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: custom products made for you, everything from sunglass cases to etc.

1247
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 1: Bags and other manly products. It's the club four Men

1248
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: by men. You can check that all out of Create

1249
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:38,759
Speaker 1: Club dot us once again, that's Create Club dot Us.

1250
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 1: Join and be a part of the community. Also, as

1251
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 1: a reminder for all those who are listening, now is

1252
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 1: the time to sign up for the spec Ops Channel.

1253
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,680
Speaker 1: That's our channel that offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries

1254
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:56,640
Speaker 1: and interviews covering the most exciting military content today. The

1255
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: spec ops channel premier show Training Cell follows four meer

1256
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: Special Operations Forces as they participate in the most advanced

1257
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: training in the country, everything from shooting school's, defensive driving,

1258
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 1: jungle and winter warfare, climbing and much more. Again, you

1259
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 1: can watch this content by subscribing to the spec Ops

1260
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: Channel that's at spec ops channel dot com and take

1261
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: advantage of a membership for only four ninety nine a month.

1262
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: Only four ninety nine a month. That's spec Ops Channel

1263
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:28,679
Speaker 1: dot com sign up today. Last thing I'm gonna mention

1264
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 1: you and I were on a call yesterday with Nick

1265
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 1: Kaufman and we're really heavily pushing this out and hope

1266
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 1: that you guys join. And that's the news Rup Financial Report.

1267
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 1: This has exclusive information that you can act on today

1268
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 1: to secure a brighter future for tomorrow. The news Our

1269
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 1: Financial Report can help you discover new investment strategies the

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01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 1: defense sector. Defense industry stocks can be a lucrative investment

1271
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: if you buy at the right time. Our team of

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01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: foreign policy, security and military experts provide real time intelligence

1273
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 1: for stocks based on global trends that affect financial markets

1274
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:06,680
Speaker 1: in the national defense industry. By subscribing now, you'll get

1275
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 1: exclusive access to our industry expertise, the news Rep Financial

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Speaker 1: Newsletter advantage, which is our team that offers unmatched defense

1277
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:22,639
Speaker 1: industry familiarity and expertise, unbiased knowledge of geopolitical trends, full

1278
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Speaker 1: access to newsrops foreign policy, security and financial intelligence platform,

1279
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 1: and access to our team of experts and analysts. Just

1280
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: go to the fin Rep tabits at the top of

1281
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: the news rep dot com and sign up today. It's

1282
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: finn Rep at the top of the news rep dot com.

1283
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: Check it out and uh, I guess that's it, wrapping

1284
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 1: things up. Check up boutch One other thing to mention.

1285
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: So this stupid news feed crap that shows up on

1286
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: my cell phone. Uh, Fox News story on Jeffrey Epstein,

1287
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: and look at the way they frame it. Department of

1288
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 1: Justice to investigate po bargain award to Clinton linked sex

1289
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: offense or Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, of course. Now, I mean

1290
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 1: you could write that same headline and say Trump ye,

1291
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 1: which I've seen some people on Twitter saying, you know

1292
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: your friend Jeffrey Epstein, and those are the games that

1293
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: are getting played. It's just and I think that's why,

1294
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: as we were saying earlier, why this didn't get mentioned

1295
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 1: during the election, Yeah, because yeah, they couldn't use it

1296
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:23,160
Speaker 1: on each other. Yeah. Well we'll see what happens, man. Um,

1297
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:25,000
Speaker 1: more and more articles. And I'm sure that if you

1298
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 1: turn on Fox News, which I don't, I don't turn

1299
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: on any of the news channels. If you think that's

1300
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,560
Speaker 1: a shot it, don't do him, don't. They're probably you know,

1301
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 1: scroll split screen debates talking about Hillary Clinton's ties this. Um. Yeah,

1302
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: but anyway, once again, pick up the Vietnam. Bout she

1303
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 1: by Mark you Blanca some great stuff coming up in

1304
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: the next week. We're gonna have b K on to

1305
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 1: talk about getting banned on Twitter. Did you see, by

1306
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 1: the way, did you see that thing he was posting

1307
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: with one of these woke vets on Twitter. He's going

1308
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 1: back and forth. I don't know who this guy is,

1309
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: so I don't want to criticize because I know nothing

1310
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: about him. But you know, I bet I do. B

1311
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 1: K just loves, you know, poking at people. This guy

1312
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: one sandwich away from fat on Twitter. No, I don't

1313
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 1: know who that one, but I just I was laughing

1314
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:12,400
Speaker 1: so during I think it was during the State of

1315
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: the Union, he wrote, if you think diversity in the

1316
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: military is bad, then you don't understand who we are

1317
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 1: or what we do. If you're in the military and

1318
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 1: think diversity in the military is bad, then you need

1319
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: to take your bigoted ask somewhere else. We don't need you. So,

1320
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 1: of course b K responded, Dude, you're a desk jockey.

1321
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: Anyone could do your job. The men's jobs require men.

1322
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: You just love just fucking with people, So you know,

1323
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: it's probably stuff like that that got in bennd Um

1324
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 1: there's a I don't understand this whole movement that like

1325
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 1: the military is like a platform for diversity. It's like,

1326
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think there's like equal opportunity and

1327
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: all that good stuff. Yeah, but like why is the

1328
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 1: military like being held up like it's supposed to be

1329
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: this platform for progressive values or something like what the

1330
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,960
Speaker 1: funk is going? I think it's just because that's everything today. Yeah,

1331
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:04,960
Speaker 1: it's it's just like what's hip and trendy and cool,

1332
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, But I mean if you work for

1333
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: a major company, you know it is it's diverse, and

1334
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: and it's also because it has to be legally, you know,

1335
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 1: with with UM the way that we do things now,

1336
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: you have to have certain jobs allocated for females and

1337
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: or you're you know, I know of companies where you

1338
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: have a lawsuit on your hands if you're not giving

1339
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 1: enough jobs to females, giving enough high up positions to

1340
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: females or to minorities. Just the way it is, I mean,

1341
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 1: I think the military should definitely UM do more to

1342
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: reach out to minorities, like that that article you sent

1343
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 1: me yesterday about the Natan Seal, African American UM former

1344
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:46,600
Speaker 1: seal and from I believe in Nigeria. Yeah, yeah, And

1345
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 1: he was talking about that. He's like, we need to

1346
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:51,720
Speaker 1: do a better job like reaching out to minority communities

1347
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: and saying like, hey, there are these opportunities for you

1348
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 1: and the Special operations world. Um. And that's good for

1349
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: those those young men or potentially young women. And and

1350
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:04,120
Speaker 1: that's also good for the military because um, from a

1351
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: Special Operations perspective, a black guy can go places to

1352
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: do things that obviously I can't do. Um. A woman

1353
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 1: can go places and do things I can't do. Uh.

1354
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 1: You know, the typical image that that people have of

1355
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:20,560
Speaker 1: a of a special operator is a you know, a

1356
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,559
Speaker 1: six ft three white guy who deadlifts six hundred pounds. Um.

1357
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 1: But that five ft to Mexican kid can blend in

1358
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: and dozens of cultures that I can't blend in in.

1359
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm I'm not like anti diversity or

1360
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: anti inclusivity or whatever buzzword it is we're using today. Uh.

1361
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 1: I just don't understand why the military is seen by

1362
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:49,840
Speaker 1: some people as solely a platform to advance a quote

1363
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: unquote progressive values, Like what world are you living in? People?

1364
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 1: People are coming to see on the left or coming

1365
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,479
Speaker 1: to see the CIA in the same light. Um that

1366
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,599
Speaker 1: they think that CIA is like a vehicle to advance

1367
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 1: a progressive agenda. Is like, have you ever read anything

1368
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,520
Speaker 1: about the CIA and what their mandate is. It's strategic intelligence.

1369
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:14,800
Speaker 1: It's not whatever weird ship you think it is. Um.

1370
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess it's the zeitgeist of our times,

1371
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, hopefully we have that guy on. Uh,

1372
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, he's done some acting. I'll reach out to him.

1373
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: He was in one of the transform Yeah, yeah, I

1374
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: don't I don't have to have I'd love to have

1375
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 1: him on. He seems like he has a great story. Yeah,

1376
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 1: and what he's saying is true. I mean the guys

1377
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: that we've had on the show that are minorities. Honestly,

1378
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 1: you look at photos of them and it's like them

1379
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:40,720
Speaker 1: surrounded by a bunch of Like it's true. I look

1380
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 1: at Curtis Albert's or Jake's wig or Nick Irving. Uh,

1381
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: they they're usually like the lone black dude in there

1382
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 1: in range of battalion. There are not very many black guys.

1383
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 1: That's just a fact. Or in the seal teams. Um,

1384
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 1: there's a there's a hand but The caveat to that, though,

1385
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 1: is in Injury Battalion. At least when I was there,

1386
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:03,600
Speaker 1: we had a ton of Hispanic. Remember you're telling me

1387
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: a lot, like half of my platoon was was Hispanic. Um. So,

1388
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 1: I mean there are quite a few minorities. Um. But

1389
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:13,680
Speaker 1: then you get into the whole question of like why

1390
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 1: aren't there more black Rangers? And our unit was always

1391
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: coming under various investigations over that, like congressional investigors did

1392
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 1: did guys try? I mean, that's that's the thing is

1393
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,160
Speaker 1: that in the ranger indoctrination program today it's called rasp

1394
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 1: um alwayst. When I was speaking from my own experience

1395
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 1: when I went there, weren't that many black guys who

1396
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:39,639
Speaker 1: showed up. Selection not the military's problem. While some people

1397
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: would say it is right and some people all kinds

1398
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: of weird arguments get advanced. Um. But uh, there's always

1399
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 1: that herihtage thing. I should say, because I've seen that

1400
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: with the fire department too. If your father was a firefighter,

1401
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: if your grandfather, and you know that's why there's a

1402
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,759
Speaker 1: lot of white dudes. If you're someone like um frewman

1403
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:59,639
Speaker 1: Terius whose father was a seal, you know it's carrying

1404
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: other legacy. His entire family were seals basically. Um. But

1405
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,639
Speaker 1: there there have been some studies done, and I believe

1406
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 1: I don't have any of these studies in front of

1407
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: me right now, but as I recall, one of the

1408
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: things that they concluded was that, um, the African American community, Uh,

1409
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:20,439
Speaker 1: typically when they joined the military, they're joining the military

1410
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,639
Speaker 1: for jobs training, whereas a white guy is more likely

1411
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 1: to join the military because they're like, rah rah Rob

1412
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,680
Speaker 1: patriotis so let's go fight. Uh. You know, like like

1413
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:31,960
Speaker 1: people who come out of minority communities have a more

1414
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: pragmatic approach to it, and they're like, we're this is

1415
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:36,920
Speaker 1: like a stepping stone, this is my this is my

1416
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 1: way out of a lifestyle and and to you know,

1417
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 1: do something with myself and do something positive with my life. UM.

1418
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 1: So I think that's part of the reason why you

1419
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:49,360
Speaker 1: don't see, or have not seen in the past so

1420
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 1: many black people going to units like Ranger Battalion, Um,

1421
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 1: because being a ranger doesn't really set you up for

1422
01:23:56,479 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 1: success necessarily in the private sector. Well. Uh, like I said,

1423
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 1: we have b K, so we'll get into exactly what

1424
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: if he even knows we've got a band because he

1425
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:08,880
Speaker 1: does this type of thing all the time. He likes

1426
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:11,800
Speaker 1: to start fights on Twitter. Uh. And then we're also

1427
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,240
Speaker 1: airing our interview with Max Partini. Uh yeah, that was

1428
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 1: out really good one. Um I'm looking forward to, uh

1429
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 1: well the one we all we already recorded the interview

1430
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:23,719
Speaker 1: with Max Martini, which was really good. And I'm looking

1431
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 1: forward to having b K on. I'm probably gonna argue

1432
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:28,879
Speaker 1: with him, but um, but it'll be it'll be interesting.

1433
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: The times he's been on is always fun. He's he's

1434
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: a fun dude. So all right, have a great weekend everybody,

1435
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 1: And uh, you know what, if you're still hungry for

1436
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,639
Speaker 1: a podcast, go check out The Power of Thought because

1437
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 1: I'll be recording a new one of those immediately following this.

1438
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:49,640
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Self Red Radio. New episodes up

1439
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 1: every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and

1440
01:24:53,720 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 1: Twitter at self rep Radio. M