WEBVTT - From the Vault: David Grinspoon on Pluto 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.960 Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.320 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.400 Time to go into the vault for an older episode 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.640 of the show. This one originally published on December thirty one, 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.960 twenty nineteen, and this was our interview with David Grinspoon 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.160 on the planet Pluto. Wait, the planet Pluto. He would 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.960 say planet other people would not, right, right, Yeah, we 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.000 get into that a bit in this, uh, this discussion. 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.720 It's really a great interview episode. Um, Dr Funky Spoon. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.080 It was a real pleasure to chat with very passionate 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.159 about about Pluto. Uh, Pluto exploration, as as well as 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:47.080 with other planets that we discuss a bit in this episode. 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.040 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:58.000 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.400 to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.360 I'm Joe McCormick. In today we're bringing you an interview 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.360 with Dr David Grinspoon. That's right. Uh. Dr David Grinspoon 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.920 is an astrobiologist, award winning science communicator, and prize winning author, 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:18.160 and is a senior scientist at the Planetary Science Institute UM. Yes, 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.120 and he is the co author, along with Dr Alan Stern, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.880 principal investigator of the New Horizons Mission. They're the authors 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.319 of Chasing New Horizons Inside the Ethic First Mission to Pluto. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.039 This was a really fun conversation. I'm really glad we've 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.920 got to talk to David about Pluto, about space exploration, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.680 about planets in general. And I think you are going 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.160 to love this conversation. That's right, even if you're not 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.480 that into Pluto, or you think you're not that into Pluto. 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.559 There's also some Venus talk in there, so it's it's tremendous. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:49.600 Definitely check it out. We're just going to dive right 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.800 into the interview and meet you on the other end. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.320 All right, well, thanks for coming on the show on 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.880 Stuff to Blow your Mind. Would you please introduce yourself 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.440 to our listeners. And my name is David in Spoon. 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.440 I'm an astrobiologist at the Planetary Science Institute UM AND 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.760 I study planetary evolution and I get involved in some 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.200 spacecraft missions to other planets and I've I've written a 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:19.400 few books, most recently Chasing New Horizons Inside the Epic 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.239 First Mission to Puto, which I co authored with Alan Stern, 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.079 who was the h himself, the leader of the epic 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.800 first mission to puta awesome I just want to stress 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.200 to everyone listening this is a great book and if 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.919 anyone is scared off from it, thinking, oh, I don't 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.240 want to read about space probes and a far flung 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.600 dwarf planet, I just want to reassure them that this 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.679 is not only a very insightful book, it's it really 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.200 has a it really is a narrative of the adventure 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.080 in many respects. So I wanted to ask, how did 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.400 how did you come to write, uh, to come to 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.560 co author what some have called a nonfiction Michael Crichton novel. 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.679 Well I like that, um like that description. Yeah. Well, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.840 this story, the story of New Horizons and of the 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:11.119 exploration of Pluto, is one that I've been following closely 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.880 for a long time. Uh much longer actually than there 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.639 was a mission called New Horizons. There was an effort 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.919 to send a mission to Pluto, and it just so 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.840 happened that being a planetary scientists and coming up through 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:28.760 you know, grad school and and all that, at a 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.760 certain time that a lot of the people that I'm 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.840 close with and friends with UM and have known for 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:39.400 a long time, have been caught up, uh and became 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.120 part of this this effort. So this was a struggle 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.480 that people were going through who I knew well for 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.720 for decades, and at times it seemed like a very 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.120 quixotic journey, like there's no way this is going to happen. 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:55.960 I can't believe what these guys are going through. I 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.000 can't believe they're not giving up. And and I remember 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.200 we're thinking, you know, well over a decade ago, probably 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.920 a couple of decades ago. Wow, you know, if these 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.840 guys ever actually succeed in doing this, it's gonna be 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.280 a great story. It's gonna make a great book someday. 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.120 It's gonna be a great book anyways, because of what 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.240 these guys are going through. But if they actually succeed, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.320 it's gonna be an amazing book. I remember thinking that UM, 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:25.520 and then more recently in UM I guess two thousand 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:31.200 and fourteen, when New Horizons was actually approaching Pluto, finally 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.719 Alan Stern, who I've known for a long time, approached 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.039 me and said, hey, I'm thinking of I want to 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.240 write a book about New Horizons, and uh, I want 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.359 to do it. With with a co author, and and 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.640 you're my first choice, and um, I was, I was 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.640 really psyched. I mean, you know, when you get an 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.880 offer like that, what's the right answer? You know, yes, 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.599 of course. And so so we agreed to enter into 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.680 a partnership and and try to tell the story. Um 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.560 and um. You know that had that had its own 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.479 kinds of challenges because obviously Alan's relationship to the story 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.400 is very different from mine. And how are we gonna 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.119 sort of combine our two perspectives and uh and tell 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.360 tell the story where he you know, he's a character 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.160 in the book. Um, and it's it's his mission. But 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.160 we we worked really hard on that and thought about 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.240 how we could use that as a strength or that, 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.040 you know, the kind of combination of our two perspectives, 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.080 and I, uh, it was. It was tricky, but I 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.440 think I think we succeeded in producing a book that 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.599 not only tells a pretty exciting story, but does it 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.080 in a unique way. Absolutely. You know, at time treating 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.279 this book, I kept coming back to a question that 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.880 I guess may may sound a little cheeky, but but 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.920 also probably gets to some of the challenges of the 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.640 space exploration. Whether it's harder to send a spacecraft to 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.480 Pluto or to successfully push a mess mission proposal through NASA. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:55.719 And I want to come back to that, you know, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.159 get your thoughts on that, but but I thought it 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.560 might be nice to touch on that, that first challenge 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.160 and uh, you know the amazing methods that we use 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.039 to send spacecraft through the Solar System. Would you tell 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.080 our listeners about our early dreams of a Grand Tour 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.120 and the time frame for capitalizing on what you describe 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.800 is excellently described in the book, is a kind of stargate? Yeah, well, um, 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:20.960 I love the first part of your question, so we 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.440 definitely need to get back to that, because yes, it's 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.200 there's some ways in which it's harder to navigate h Washington, 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.360 d C. Than than Um, than the outer Solar System. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.040 I don't know. Both those have their own challenges and 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:35.599 you have to learn how to be good at both 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.880 if you want to do this. But um, the Grand Tour, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.520 M Yeah, so well, it's it's very difficult to send 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.120 the spacecraft as far as Pluto. Um. And if you 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.719 were just going to launch from Earth with a normal 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.080 rocket and just try to head out there, it would 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.520 take um, well, much longer than the New Horizons took. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.040 You know, when New Horizon basically took only a decade 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.360 to cross the Solar System, it would take longer because 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.480 the distances are so great. But um, you can take 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.280 advantage of something called a gravitational assist where you fly 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.360 in close to a giant planet with a huge gravitational 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.560 pull and if you aim in just the right way, um, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.840 then you use the gravity, the giant gravitational pool of 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.880 that giant planet to sort of sling shot you around. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.160 You know, it pulls you in, but you missed the 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.000 planet and then it flings you out and you have 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.920 to aim just right. But you can use that to 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.160 get a boost, a big pick up and speed, which 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.240 makes it much quicker to execute the rest of your 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.920 journey across the Solar System. If you've if you've done 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.280 everything right. And the first time this was really used 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:51.680 to dramatic effect was the Voyager mission. The Voyager missions 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:57.120 which we're you know, our first close by buys of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:02.520 and Neptune voyagers. They launched in seventy seven. The Neptune 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.600 encounter of Voyager two was which was the last one 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:10.240 was nine so all through the late seventies and in 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.520 the eighties, these missions were going planet to planet and 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.720 sort of expanding our our knowledge of our Solar System 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:22.040 and dramatic encounters. And there's a certain element of luck 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.840 there that a lot of people really aren't probably aware of. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.320 But if you look historically, I mean, you know, we 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.600 started sending spacecraft to other planets in the sixties, and 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:36.120 you know, the Venus Mars in the sixties, and then 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:42.040 um started thinking about farther going farther afield. And it 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:48.400 just so happens that occasionally there's a lineup of all 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.040 the planets in just the right way, so that if 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.360 you launch at the right time, you can sling shot 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.000 past Jupiter and then that sends you to Saturn, and 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.640 then you sling shot past Saturn and that sends you 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.280 to your earnest and then to Neptune and then to Pluto, 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.840 et cetera. UM. And but you have to picture the 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.880 planets have to be lined up just right, sort of 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.840 like beads on a spiral going out from the Sun, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:16.160 and that alignment only happens every couple hundred years. And 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.520 the amazing historical luck that I that I was mentioning 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.840 that people aren't aware of is that in the late 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.760 nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, scientists became aware, you know, 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.000 just when we were gaining the ability to launch spacecraft 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:32.760 off of birth and going to the planets for the 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.040 first time, scientists became aware that one of these what 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.920 they call Grand Tour alignments was coming up in the 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:44.240 late nineteen seventies and eighties, so that if you launched 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.000 a spacecraft by the mid to late nineteen seventies from Earth, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.040 you could do this Grand tour and go all the 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.360 way out to the earnest Neptune Pluto. But if you 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.640 missed that window, that nineteen seventies window, you wouldn't get 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.599 another chance like this for a couple of hundred years. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.839 So you know, it's started just in the nick of time. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.080 But it was also a rush to launch because this. 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.040 People realize this, and the scientists proposed a grand tour 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.960 in the early seventies, and then Congress said, no, that's 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.040 too expensive, go back to the drawing board, and they 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.280 were like, well, we don't have much time to get 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.160 this together. You know. There was some drama there, but 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.800 they reproposed and Voyager got approved and the Grand Tour 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:27.560 mission became the Voyager mission, which culminated in uh in 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.120 the encounter, the amazing encounter with Neptune and it's moon 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:36.080 Triton in with Voyager two, and as we tell in 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.240 the book Chasing New Horizons, in a lot of ways 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:43.200 of that encounter set the stage for the desire to 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.320 go to Pluto, because with Neptune, uh you know, it 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.120 was sort of all over for that generation, and people, 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.240 young scientists were like, well, wait a minute, there's more 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.160 to explore. What are we going to do? And Triton, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.560 which was the last place the Voyager went, little moon 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.839 of Neptune is is a very sort of Puto like place, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:07.520 a really strange, icy world with solid nitrogen basins and 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:12.360 all this strange activity and geography, and it made people think, gosh, 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.120 if we could only send a mission to Pluto. And 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.760 right sort of in the wake of the end of 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:22.720 the Voyager mission, at least the Voyager Planetary Encounters was 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.720 born the desire, uh you know, it really in nine 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.240 for this this crazy idea of sending a mission to Pluto, 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.880 which culminated, uh, you know, twenty six years later with 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.440 a successful fly by of Pluto. By New Horizons in 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:44.080 two fifteen. Now you were talking about gravity assist there, 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.239 and and of course the what ultimately became New Horizons, 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.560 the New Horizons mission, and went through you discussed all 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.480 the different sort of versions of the proposal. At one 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.559 point the proposal was actually actually involved sending a craft 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.440 towards the Sun first, right. Oh, yeah, that was one 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:06.480 trajectory that would have worked, um as far as using 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:10.560 these gravitational encounters to get to Pluto. But it would 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.199 have involved going towards the Sun and flying by Venus 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.719 first and then back by Earth. And which is, by 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.480 the way, something that is um done. Uh. You know, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:26.120 that's actually how both both Galileo and Cassini on their 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.120 way to Jupiter and Saturn both did venus fly bys. Um. 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:31.840 Sometimes you go in and pick up speed and then 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.640 you fling back outwards. But it was really not optimal 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.200 for a small Pluto mission, and it was it would 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.640 have worked, but it would have taken more years um. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.920 And it already takes a long time to get out 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.040 to Pluto. Um. And also UM, I mean it would 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.800 have saved energy and money, and that's the other thing. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.840 You're not just doing this to save time. On the journey. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.720 You you want to launched a smaller rocket and still 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.880 have enough energy to get to the Outer Solar System, 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.240 and that's where these encounters help you also by kicking 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.760 up speed. So it would have worked. But you also 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:11.120 it's not optimal because when you're designing something to endure 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:16.240 the coldness of the outer Outer Solar System where Pluto is, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:20.040 you really don't want to send that spacecraft in towards 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.920 the Sun and endure the thermal environment near Venus if 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:25.920 you can help it. So it was one of the 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.120 things that came onto the table to possibly save the 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.120 Pluto mission, which had to be done multiple times when 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.400 things got canceled and the budget got constricted or whatever, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.480 but it turned out to not really be the best 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.960 way to do it. Yeah, you lay out, you know, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.000 all the close calls that just the uh, you know, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.320 the the quest to send a craft to Pluto went through. 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.439 How many close calls were there, and how astounding is 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.839 it that the mission happened at all. It really is 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.560 kind of a pails of Pauline story, you know, where 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.120 everything that can go wrong almost did go wrong. Um, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.719 and you know that's that's part of part of why 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.400 I love the story because we wanted to let people 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.480 know not just what happened and how it was done, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.760 but really what it takes to get something through the 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.400 system and all the different things that can derail it. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.960 And this story kind of combines all of those hazards it. Uh, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.840 it had to be UM. It was canceled by two 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:27.440 different successive presidential administrations UM. And that you know, one 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.080 of the risk of these things is the time scale 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:30.480 is long enough that you get it through and the 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.840 government finally says, yeah, we're gonna fund this, we like it, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.440 and then you get a new government and that wasn't 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.520 our idea. Forget it. And this happened multiple times UM. 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.360 And then you know, they sort of kept changing the 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.280 rules on new horizons and then there you know, there's 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.880 so many interesting crises. One was had to do with 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.680 the nuclear power that you have to have a nuclear 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.600 power source when you're going that far from the sun UM, 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.600 and that introduces other UM hazards. I mean, just just 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.520 in terms of the regulation. Uh, it's crazy getting something 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.320 like that approved, especially when you've got a ticking clock 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.000 and you have to launch by a certain date or 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.840 you're gonna miss your Jupiter fly by window and so 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.960 that was tricky. And then all these things happened. Last 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.520 last Albumos Lab, which is the only place where they 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.960 make the plutonium, got shut down because of a security breach, 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.840 um and uh, they weren't gonna have enough time to 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.320 get enough plutonium. And you know, so that's one whole 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:33.120 area of of intrigue. And and you know, near mishap 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.680 and then you know, there were there were a couple 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.800 of just unfortunate technical accidents. There were um, you know, 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.920 there was a lot of kind of like political um uh, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:48.320 just maschinations within NASA and outside of NASHA that outside 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.560 of NASA that doomed seemingly doomed to the mission again 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.640 and again and and and this team, this crazy team 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.080 of you know, they called themselves the Pluto Underground, that 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.480 were committed to this goal. They kept having to pick 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.920 themselves up and dust themselves off and basically start again. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.720 And um it's really it's really an amazing story of 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.080 perseverance that they just didn't let it go. Yeah, I 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.040 mean not only the you discussed, not only like the 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.680 technological hurdles and then of course the political sphere, but 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.600 but even just within the realm of space exploration. Like suddenly, 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.960 given that that grand times span for the for the project, Uh, 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.240 new new things become exciting just within the realm of 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.479 space exploration that can potentially detract from a mission like this, right, yeah, absolutely, 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.360 So you know there's something that something comes along. You know, 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.720 again we're talking to an effort that started really succeeded 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.960 in two fifteen, and you know it's a shifting landscape. 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:47.720 New discoveries happen, UM, new constituencies form with a NASA 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.240 to do do other kinds of missions. I mean, for instance, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.640 one thing that that came along UM during this time 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.920 period was that Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter, got 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.080 much more interesting in the in the sense that we 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.160 discovered um with the Galletle mission, we discovered that Europa 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.000 likely has an ocean and is a possible habitable environment. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.760 So um, the Pluto mission is doing well, and then 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.080 all of a sudden, there's this huge movement within the 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.280 planetary science community to divert resources and compete a mission 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.359 to Europa instead because of these discoveries, and and you know, 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.640 nobody on the New Horizons team is going to argue, well, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.160 Europe is not interesting and not important. I wouldn't argue 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.040 that that for a second. Everybody, you know, we all 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.720 acknowledge that these are all important goals, but there's the 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.360 shiny new thing all of a sudden, you know, late 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.000 a minute. We've been waiting our turn, you know, so 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.720 that things things like that happened multiple times. I actually 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.639 have heard of like a planetary partisanship before. You know, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.679 I had a friend who did some research on Jupiter's 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.160 moon Io and she had some kind of negative things 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.320 to say about Europa. Well, okay, I mean there is 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.680 there is definitely an element of that. And in a way, 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.200 then the way NASA sets up it's UM, it's competition 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:10.240 for missions, UM kind of encourages that because there are 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.280 these different UM interest groups within NASA. There's like, I mean, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.439 I'm really interested in Venus exploration, so I'm part of 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.800 this group called VEX at the Venus Exploration Activities Group, 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.680 And there's me PAD, which is the Mars Exploration Activities Group, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.199 and then there's the Outer Planets Activities Group. And you 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.800 know when we when NASA does their annual h decadal 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.560 ranking of mission priorities, were sort of organized into these 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.480 different constituencies and we're all putting our favorite mission forward. 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.680 So there is this competition, um, and then even beyond that, 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.880 when there's a call for new missions, you know there's 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.280 going to be a small or medium class or large 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.360 class mission. Different teams compete, you know, And I've been 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.600 on these teams, and you put years into these missions, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.800 and you compete really hard. So of course you want 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.399 your mission. I mean, I want my Venus mission that 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.120 I'm a co investigator on to be selected. And then 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.560 when an asteroid mission or a Jupiter mission or something 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:09.480 gets selected instead, I'm really bummed about that same time. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.240 So that's true, and that's partly just a measure of 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.280 the way we compete things. But I do have to say, 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.480 and I and this is really true, that there's a 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.800 larger sense in which we're all on the same team 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.199 and feel that way. So that when the competition is 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.000 over and one of these missions comes to the launch pad, 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.640 whether it's a Mars mission and asteroid mission, uh whatever, 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.000 everybody in the community cheers that launch. I mean, because 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.280 we all, you know, when you back up from that, 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.919 we're all pretty psyched about exploring the whole Solar System. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.000 And even though you'll hear me and some of my 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.000 colleagues grumble about, oh my got another Mars mission got funded, 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.320 what about Venus? What about you know? But then then 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.879 when that Mars mission actually launches and lands successfully, we 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:51.880 get tears in our eyes too, and we're like, this 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.440 is so amazing. So you know, we yeah, we compete 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.040 for our separate constituencies, but we all I think also 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:03.360 genuinely u root for and identify with the larger project 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.000 of exploring the sol war system. Yeah, I want to 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.840 be clear in case my friend is listening. She I 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.879 think she was joking when she was slagging. Well, I mean, 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.520 we do talk about it, you know, every scheme and 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:17.040 like market I hope people, you know, But at the 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.800 end of the day, we're I mean, and you know, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.119 of course you get personal um grudges and all. You know, 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.879 human human beings are human beings. But at the end 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.280 of the day, uh, we're all pretty excited about about 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.600 all of the exploration. All right, we're gonna jump in 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.640 here and take a quick break, but we'll be right back, 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.280 and we're back. I found it really astounding, especially to 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.920 think about this as we were at the very close 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.480 of the decade, as we're recording this, but at one point, 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.600 I think during two thousand you mentioned that NASA just 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.760 shelved the idea of a Pluto mission altogether until the twenties. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:55.920 So I think it's it's amazing to think that there's 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.240 like an alternate timeline out there in which you and 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.080 Alan might have written a book about the desire for 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.480 a Pluto mission in the twenties rather than what we 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:10.440 have a definitive history of the planet's first exploration. That's right. 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.000 I mean, there's so many alternate timelines like that, And 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.920 this was a case where basically, um, you know, more 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.840 than once NASA let it, you know, got to the 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.119 stage where there's going to be a competition for this mission, 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.959 which is a huge win for the people wanting to 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.560 go to Puto. It's like NASA sponsoring a competition for proposals. 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.719 That means that they're gonna pick a winning proposal and 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.000 then somebody gets to fly mission to Pluto and hopefully 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.359 it's our team, but at least it's some team, so 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.000 that's great. But then they have this competition and everybody 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:43.359 works really really hard on all their proposals, and you know, 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.600 it's this crazy amount of effort to get this in 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.120 and then NASA says at the end of it, well, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:53.520 actually we're not picking anybody, and um, the whole concept 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:58.959 is is canceled um because a budget problems. And by 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.880 the way, we're just not going to go to Pluto 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.720 for the next twenty years. So that was actually something 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:09.320 that was declared by the Associate Administrator of NASA at 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.960 one point, and that was really a low point for 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.919 the morale, as you can imagine. But there were interesting 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:18.199 things that happened, um at that point. Um, there was 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.480 a big public interest campaign. There was the Planetary Society 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:27.240 got involved. There are a group that advocates a public 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:32.080 membership group that advocates for planetary exploration and other um. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:33.680 You know, the public got involved and there was a 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.320 lot of pressed about this and people were like demanding, no, 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.720 we want our government, we want NASA to send a 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.320 mission to Pluto. And then NASA got tens of thousands 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:43.919 of letters saying you can't cancel Pluto, we want this. 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.199 And so there were points and that that point you 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:53.119 mentioned where it was completely canceled was one in particular 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:58.040 where the public input became really key to keeping the 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.440 effort going. UM. And you know, of course there were 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.560 efforts by the Pudo underground to sort of help marshal 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.840 that public interest and encourage letter writing. But at the 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:10.439 same time it was really genuine. There was there was 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:15.240 indeed an outpouring of mass public support. And UM. That's 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:18.480 another thing that's interesting I think about the whole story. 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:20.800 Was it at the heart of it, there's this band 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.880 of sort of I guess I don't want to quite 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:26.359 call them fanatics but almost but like you know, really 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:32.800 determined UM scientists, UM, who wanted to do this UM. 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:37.200 But then UM there's also the larger planetary scientists community 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.560 that had to be sort of won over to their cause. 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:41.919 And then and then outside of that, there's just the 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:46.199 public that got very involved and at times, UM, the 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:50.600 support of the public was pivotal in UM keeping the 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.040 effort going and ultimately and ensuring a success. So we 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.840 know you have a special place in your heart for Venus, 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:58.560 and maybe we can come back to that later on. 0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:03.440 But what is so captivating in particular about Pluto. Well, Pluto, 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.840 of course, you know, historically it's been the place that 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:11.840 we just didn't know anything about, UM and uh so 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:14.600 it was you know, in science fiction from the golden 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.080 age of science fiction in the you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.440 when we really didn't know anything about Pluto. It's this um, 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.320 this kind of mystery world um, and there's a lot 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.560 of great law laura about Pluto. But then, of course, scientifically, 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:31.800 once we started to learn about the existence of the 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:35.639 Cooper Belt, which is this whole third realm of the 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:38.280 Solar System. You know, you've got the inner rocky planets, 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.800 the outer gas giants, and then the outer outer Coiper Belt, 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:46.679 which is this vast zone of these icy and rocky objects, 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:48.960 you know, millions of them beyond the orbit of Neptune 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:50.680 that we didn't even know about. All we knew about 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:52.840 was Pluto. It turned out, we discovered really in the 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.240 in the ninety nineties that Pluto is the tip of 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.800 the iceberg of this huge unknown realm of the Solar System. 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.359 And so that in itself made it very interesting to 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.600 want to go and visit one of these bodies, because 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.159 those are leftovers from the formation of the Solar System. 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:10.399 You know, they're sort of leftover building pile of building 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.400 materials that made the planets. So we know there's answers 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.280 out there too, questions of our own origins, but then, 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:21.040 you know, there was always the possibility, certainly in my mind, 0:25:21.040 --> 0:25:22.280 and I know in the mind of some of the 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:25.280 other um, some of the people involved in the mission, 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:30.040 that well, what if, against all odds, this thing actually 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.159 works and we get to Pluto, And then what if 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:36.119 it's kind of boring. It's be cool to get there, 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:37.959 no matter what, but what if it's just kind of 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:41.960 like a a crater ice ball um. You know, you 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:44.439 could learn some things, you count the creators, you measured 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:46.040 with the serviceman out of it. You know, it would 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:48.200 it would no matter what, it would be cool. But 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:49.840 but in the back of my mind it was like, well, 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:52.359 you know, what if it's just not the most exciting place. 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:55.520 And it seemed plausible because we have this sort of 0:25:55.520 --> 0:26:00.600 prejudice against um cold places that are far from other things. 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:02.760 We expect them to be inactive, and that's you know, 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:04.879 in our textbooks, you know, we thought the moons of 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.800 Jupiter would be boring and inactive, and it turns out 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:11.400 there not because the gravitational pull of Jupiter makes them 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:14.800 pulse with activity. We didn't know that until we got there. 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:17.199 By the same token, a lot of people thought Pluto 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:20.159 would be boring and inactive. And the thing that's if 0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:23.480 I had to summarize, you know, and a very short 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:27.879 number of sentences, what's surprising and exciting about Pluto compared 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:32.800 to our expectations is that it's really active. It's geologically alive. 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.400 It's not old and dead and just covered with creators. 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:40.919 It pulses with activity and that is something that nobody expected. 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.879 And when those first pictures came in, um, you know, 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:49.840 there was like, in addition to joy and elation and 0:26:49.920 --> 0:26:54.359 just share amazement by the the team members, there was 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:58.280 also this puzzlement of what is going on there? Why 0:26:58.640 --> 0:27:01.480 is this place so far from the sun. Also, you know, 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:05.040 it's not discovered in creators. There's clearly activity going on there. 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:08.199 And at first it was you know, it really was 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:11.520 you know, a massive head scratching moment to figure out, okay, 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.520 what what's going on? And it it's just so varied 0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:20.240 and um active and complex in a surprising and delightful 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:22.800 way that um, you know, I'm still kind of wrapping 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:25.600 my head around that. Well, would you mind telling us 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:29.359 a few like what are some of these most exciting 0:27:29.440 --> 0:27:32.760 and like the strangest revelations about this object? Yeah? What 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.000 makes Pluto weird. So the first thing you notice, and 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.399 there's all kinds of poetry in this, but it's true. 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.879 You know, as you're approaching Pluto, even days away, you 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.560 see this bright heart shaped feature the heart of Pluto, 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:49.240 which is just kind of lovely, but it's also that 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:53.840 turns out to be a very very intriguing and interesting formation. 0:27:53.960 --> 0:28:03.480 It's this massive, um, huge glacier of solid nitrogen um 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.800 called Sputnik Poinecia. A lot of the places on Pluto 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:10.960 have now been named after famous explorers or missions of exploration, 0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:14.879 and so we've got Tombao Reggio. The heart itself is 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:18.800 named Tombaw Reggio, really, which is the after Clyde Tombau, 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:22.040 the discover of Pluto. And then the big um western 0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.480 or left ventricle if you will have, the hard western 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.760 smooth area is the Sputnik Plinicia, which is this massive 0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:35.000 glacier of flowing solid nitrogen. And that was the big 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:37.399 you know. Okay, so you see this area, it's big, 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:40.360 it's bright, and there are absolutely no craters on it. 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:44.160 Zero And I remember John Spencer, who's you know, one 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:46.080 of these old friends from grad school. I was mentioning, 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:48.400 who's been involved in this mission for a long long time. 0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:51.240 Who's one of the UH you know, very central. He's 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:53.120 in the book. He's one of the people that helped 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:56.400 UH plan the mission, and UM did a lot of 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:58.760 important work and a lot of the scientific analysis. I 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:02.240 remember him saying on the day of the encounter, if 0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:04.800 you had told me that the first that I've ever 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.560 told me that I'd see the first high resolution image 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:11.480 of Pluto and it would have zero impact craters, no craters, 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:14.600 I would not have believed you. And that's because craters 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:17.200 are sort of our our chronometers. You know, when you 0:29:17.240 --> 0:29:19.520 see a planetary surface full of craters, you know it's 0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:22.160 an old surface that not much has happened to. It's 0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:25.520 just been collecting creators over the eons. And when you 0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:29.560 see a surface with no craters, then you say, Okay, 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:33.400 something's happening here. There's more recent activities, something filling in 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:36.200 the old holes and paving it over. And this was, 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:40.280 you know, a massive area UM with with no craters. 0:29:40.400 --> 0:29:44.480 And it turns out UM that and we didn't know 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:47.760 this UM, but we should have known it because there's 0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:50.520 no new physics involved. It was just lack of imagination 0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:53.240 or you know, this is why we explore because you 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:55.160 discovered things and you go, oh, I should have thought 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:57.640 of that, But but that that it turns out that 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:02.840 solid nitrogen at plute temperatures is squishy enough so that 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.440 you build up enough of it that it does flow 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:08.920 over geologic time with a little bit of heat. And 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:11.160 there's a little bit of heat coming from the interior 0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:16.000 of Puto, so um basically that activity is convicting and 0:30:16.080 --> 0:30:21.240 flowing solid nitrogen which covers this massive area on Puto. 0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:23.640 And then closer and you look, you see like things 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:26.480 that are you realize there's glaciers of nitrogen flowing out 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:29.960 of the steep mountains on the edge of this thing, 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:33.040 and the mountains are made out of um water ice 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:36.720 because water ice there has the properties of bedrock. You know, 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:39.440 it's so cold. But if you actually look at those mountains, 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:43.760 they have roughly the the height and shape of like 0:30:44.000 --> 0:30:46.120 the rocky mountains on Earth. You know, they're like fourteen 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:50.760 thousand foot peaks of water ice with glaciers of solid 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.360 nitrogen flowing out of them onto these nitrogen plans. So 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:56.920 it's you know, it's a you can find forms that 0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.200 look familiar and yet you look at what they're made 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:02.120 out of, and they're just really exotic materials. Isn't there 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:07.360 also some amazing precipitation situation on Pluto. Yes, and again 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.000 it's another one of these things where it's something that 0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:12.160 looks familiar, but it's weird stuff doing it. So on 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:17.760 some of the high mountains, they're they're snow capped, but 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:20.360 it's not snow the way we usually think of it. 0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:24.320 There are there's methane snow on top of some of these, 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:26.880 so you have you know, it's it's the same things 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.560 that you have on on Earth you have rock mountains 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:34.280 and water ice glaciers and water ice snow. On Pluto 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:39.760 you have uh, water ice mountains with nitrogen glaciers and 0:31:40.240 --> 0:31:43.760 methane snow. All right, So as long as we're talking 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.280 about just the property to Pluto. I originally wasn't going 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:49.040 to ask about this because I know you get it 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:51.720 a lot um and but you also discussed it in 0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:55.080 the book. So my second grade son is studying the 0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:58.040 planets in school and he really wants you to weigh 0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:02.280 in on this is Pluto planet. So my one word 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:07.040 answer is yes, But what I would tell your son 0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:09.959 because maybe he's confused by hearing that because he might 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:12.160 have heard in school, but it's not. I would try 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.400 to use it as a teachable moment and say, well, 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:18.120 here's why some scientists think it's not, and here's why 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:21.600 some scientists think it is. Because you know, to my mind, 0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:25.760 what makes something a planet or not UM has to 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:31.520 do with its intrinsic properties. What's that object like, uh, 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.360 you know, and and in my view, anything that's large 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:39.560 enough to be round by its own gravity and have 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:43.240 um the features that we associate with planets at you know, 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:47.840 surface activity and mountains and atmosphere, which Pluto does, makes 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.840 sense to call it a planet. Um the i AU 0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:55.240 definition which became very popular and which some people consider 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:59.920 to be official, although though I don't UM, it's base 0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:03.480 more on not the properties of that object, but what's 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:06.680 around it, how it's orbiting, and what's orbiting around it. 0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:09.720 And you know, if you're the kind of astronomer that 0:33:09.920 --> 0:33:12.360 doesn't think so much about what planets the properties of 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:16.360 planets themselves, doesn't worry about geology and meteorology, but is 0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:20.560 interested in um looking through telescopes and identifying orbiting objects 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:23.880 and thinking about classifying your orbits in different ways, then 0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:27.600 I can see how that sort of makes sense, um, 0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:31.200 but but it also at least leads to some sort 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:33.400 of absurdities. I mean, the basic thing is they say 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:35.920 that if a planet dominates its zone and has cleared 0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:38.239 out other material, then it's actually a planet, and if 0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:41.040 it hasn't, then it's something else called a dwarf planet, 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.160 which isn't really a planet. Um is what is said. 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:46.680 The problem is at least to some silly in my 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:48.600 view of silly things like if you took Earth and 0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:51.360 moved it somewhere else where there was a swarm of material, 0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:54.360 then it wouldn't be a planet anymore, or even worse, 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:58.200 even worse by that definition. Earth itself was not a 0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:01.160 planet for its first five million in years of existence, 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:05.200 when it was being pelted with objects that you know, 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:07.160 in its zone that had not yet been cleared out, 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:09.759 and then it became a planet at some point, not 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:14.280 because it changed, but because it's environment changed. So um, 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:18.040 what you will find is that, um, there's a difference 0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:22.680 in the way planetary scientists speak about this from astronomers 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:25.160 in general. And I'm a planetary scientist. I study planets 0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:28.840 for living and me and really most of my colleagues. 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:32.279 I think we use the word planet when we talk 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:34.680 about Pluto. We even use the word planet when we 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:39.200 talk about um, the larger planet like moons like Io 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:43.880 and Uh and Tighten, because because again they have the 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:47.560 features that we are interested in thinking about and comparing 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:52.200 between worlds. So UM, I guess you could tell your 0:34:52.200 --> 0:34:56.480 son going back to that, that some scientists UM that 0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:59.040 a lot of the scientists who study planets use the 0:34:59.040 --> 0:35:02.879 word planet when talk about Puto because it has these things. 0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:05.160 And then and then tell them about Puda instead of 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:09.520 worrying about the the definition, say, because it has mountains, 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.879 and it has an atmosphere, and it's big and round 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.239 because of gravity. And you know, hopefully when you talk 0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:17.840 to kids, you steer the conversation into something more interesting 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:22.600 than scientists arguing about nomenclature and actually talk about what's 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:27.160 cool about Puda. You know, absolutely now speaking of nomenclature, uh. 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:28.960 You also at one point in the book you talk 0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.360 about the you know, the naming of the planet and 0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:34.040 some of the you list some of the potential names 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:36.480 that were thrown out there at one point. So you know, 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:40.840 if we're considering alternative history, there's also an alternative timeline 0:35:40.840 --> 0:35:43.319 where we're not talking about the exploration of Pluto, we're 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:46.480 talking about the exploration of Tomboy, which was one of 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:49.319 my favorites from that list you share. Yeah, now that was. 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:53.160 I mean, so the discovery of Pluto in itself is 0:35:53.160 --> 0:35:56.640 a really just cool story which we try to encapsulate 0:35:56.719 --> 0:36:00.279 in the book because Tombo himself was a really interesting character. Nately, 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:03.920 So again another kind of against all odds, perseverance wins 0:36:04.080 --> 0:36:08.160 the day kind of story which is echoed, uh, you know, 0:36:08.280 --> 0:36:12.480 seventy years or eighty years later in the story of 0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:18.960 the success of of New Horizons. But when um, the 0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:24.080 planet was discovered at low observatory, Um, then um, you know, 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.320 they of course they made sure not to tell anybody 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:29.920 until they were absolutely They checked their work and we 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:32.040 were absolutely certain they have found something. They didn't want 0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:34.680 to be accused of a false alarm. And but then 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:36.920 once they were sure, they announced it to the world 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:38.960 and it was in all the newspapers and everything. And 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.560 then ideas came flooding in telegrams from from all over 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:49.200 the world, um, uh, suggesting and letters suggesting names, um, 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:51.000 and some of them are pretty funny. I mean, well, 0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:53.840 first of all, there was some there was some politics involved, 0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:56.960 like personal glowals who was the guy that you know 0:36:57.000 --> 0:37:00.759 found rich Bostonian astronomer who founded the Lobo Ervatory where 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:05.000 it was um the search was successfully executed and who 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:09.160 actually Um really he started the search but didn't live 0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:12.279 to see it through. His widow wanted to call it 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:17.520 um Percy in honor of first Belowl, you know. And 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:20.160 there were some some politics that had to be offended off. 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:23.720 And then there were some very very silly UM suggestions 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.359 that you mentioned tomboy, yeah, because somebody was like, well 0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:30.719 that sounds like Tombo, and uh, there's they've got a 0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:34.480 great collection of these, uh in at little observatory of 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:36.920 the letters suggesting different names for Pluto. But the the 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:42.360 actual name UM, I love This came from a m 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:49.759 a ten year old English schoolgirl named Venetia Bernie who 0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:53.880 heard about the discovery of Pluto and UM mentioned that 0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:58.319 UM at the dinner table to her parents, who knew 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.120 an astronomer. Um that she had been doing some reading 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:04.880 and mythology and she suggested Pluto because of its underworld 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:08.560 associations and it's you know, all the you know, the 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:15.000 mythological associations and and this was sent by UM by 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:19.200 by telegram UM and and they loved it at Little Observatory. 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:23.080 And there's part of the reason is because the first 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:29.440 two letters P l um is also honors personal Loal. 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:32.400 And in fact, the symbol for Pluto, you know, all 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:35.640 the all the planets have kind of a symbol that 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.239 comes out of you know, mythology, mostly um. Like the 0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:43.600 Mars symbol is you know, the male um that the 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:45.319 circle with the arrow coming out of it, and the 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:47.239 Venus one is the circle with a cross coming out 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.719 of it, etcetera. And the symbol that was adopted for 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.680 Pluto has a P and an L which stands for Pluto, 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:56.000 but it also stands for personal Lowal. So that way 0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:58.200 they were able to honor the you know, founder of 0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:00.719 the observatory without doing something so ass is to name 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.960 it after him. Yeah, that's awesome. I love the history 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.560 that you share there about that, because because you go 0:39:07.600 --> 0:39:10.759 through the the history of thinking about Pluto, you know, 0:39:11.600 --> 0:39:14.960 discovering Pluto and then leading up to this exploration. But 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:17.440 of course at the very start of the book you 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:21.799 you really really to drive home just how delicate these 0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:25.160 missions are and how high the stakes. Are you open 0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:28.880 with what could have been an extremely tragic moment for 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:33.040 the spacecraft? Yeah, you know, we wanted to um structure 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.480 it a little bit like a thriller because the people 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:39.960 and for the people that lived through it, Um, it 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.000 was like a thrower and that you know, there were 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:44.480 long stretches where not that much was happening, and then 0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:46.640 all of a sudden, you know, like the red lights 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:48.799 are all flashing and it's like, oh my god, does 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:53.279 that blooming? And out of the many sort of near 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:58.720 death experiences of this mission, UM experience, perhaps the most 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:03.080 rum attic was the one with which we opened the book, 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:09.440 because Um, this happened on approach to Puto, when they 0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:12.080 were ten days out. All of a sudden they lost 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:16.560 contact completely with a spacecraft. And that's something that should 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.920 never happen, of course, And if it happens when you're 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:23.920 a year out or six months out, then you have 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:26.120 some time to work the problem and try to get 0:40:26.120 --> 0:40:28.239 back in touch, and hopefully you do. But when it 0:40:28.280 --> 0:40:32.040 happens when you're that close, it's really a panic because 0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:35.040 you don't have much time. Not only do you have 0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:37.120 that initial fear of what if we never hear from 0:40:37.120 --> 0:40:40.000 but again, uh, you know, things do go wrong in spacecraft, 0:40:40.000 --> 0:40:42.040 and there have been spacecraft that have been you know, 0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:45.680 there was one of the Mars spacecraft. Um was made. 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.720 It all the way up basically to the doorstep of Mars, 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.480 and then something went wrong. It probably blew up and 0:40:51.520 --> 0:40:53.640 it was just never heard from again. So those things happen. 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.960 So that's the initial fear. And then once they heard 0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:00.600 from New Horizons, it was a big relief. But what 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:04.040 they heard from it was basically helped, Um, something's gone wrong. 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:08.440 I'm not I'm in a bad condition. What should I do? Um? 0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:10.960 Which is good that the spacecraft he knows to say that. 0:41:11.640 --> 0:41:13.440 And again, if it's six months out, then you have 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:15.080 plenty of time to work the problem. But this was 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:18.520 an emergency because it was literally days away from when 0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:22.200 they were going to start the final sequence of observations 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:27.160 that that week long period surrounding the closest encounter everything 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.360 is automated, and it was about to begin that automated sequence. 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:34.280 And the spacecraft is barreling down on Pluto a million 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:37.560 miles a day, getting closer, and it's gonna fly by 0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:40.040 no matter what, whether it's working or not. And you 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.320 don't have a lot of time, and to make matters worse, 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.719 at that point, you're so far from Earth with the 0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:51.400 spacecraft that it takes nine hours to send a signal 0:41:51.680 --> 0:41:55.399 to the spacecraft and get an answer back. So just 0:41:55.480 --> 0:42:00.239 saying hey, are you okay, and then the spacecraft saying yeah, 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.840 well I'm here, but uh, you know, my main computer 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.840 rebooted and I've lost all the commands for the final 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:12.040 observing sequence, which is what it said, And just that 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:15.239 bit of communication takes nine hours, and when you've only 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:20.479 got a few days start executing this sequence, that's really bad. 0:42:20.640 --> 0:42:22.080 And then you know, so of course they have this 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:25.239 emergency meeting and they figure try to assess the situation. 0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:27.680 By the way, this also happened on the fourth of July, 0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:30.560 so and the team had been given the day off 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:32.919 to prepare for the intensity of the encounter to come. 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:35.640 So the phone tree gets activated. People start coming in 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:38.120 and there, you know, flip flops and bathing suits from 0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:42.560 their barbecues and um and like that in their flip 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:45.280 flops and bathing suits. People stay there for like three days, 0:42:45.480 --> 0:42:48.120 and you know they're sleeping under desks and needing out 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:50.920 of vending machines. And all that like Apollo thirteen, you know, 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:54.200 And and they basically figure out they have three of 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:59.239 these nine hour communication UM turnaround times three of these 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:02.040 to work with, so they're gonna have to fix the 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:04.120 thing with three batches of commands. That's all the time 0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:06.439 they have. And they just get to work and it's 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:12.759 there's there's real heroism in this story. And UM, you know, 0:43:12.840 --> 0:43:17.160 we get to UM tell the story of UM some 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:22.160 of these these characters you know who UM been working 0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:26.240 out of the limelight for UM, you know for decades 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:29.160 on this and suddenly have their moment of just like 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:32.640 total heroism, you know, UM, And that's that's great to 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:36.759 be able to share that with people. UM. And this 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:41.520 team just kicks into kicks into action and they have 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.640 to rewrite all the software and tested it and figure 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:47.200 out ways to send it up and what to tell 0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:51.560 the spacecraft and UM, you know, nobody sleeps for like 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:55.200 multiple days and UM just at the last minute, literally 0:43:55.200 --> 0:43:59.279 with hours to spare, they get everything reloaded on the 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:04.840 spacecraft and it's UM it ends up executing flawlessly. UM. 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:06.960 But this was you know, this was the moment of 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:09.680 crisis that came after everything else and was like sort 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:13.760 of the last crazy hurdle to be crossed before before 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:17.440 reaching Pluto. Well, it's an amazing story. It uh, it 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:19.839 makes you wonder what caused the malfunction to begin with, 0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:23.440 to get some trans neptune and malware. Actually they figured 0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:26.440 that out, oh really, yeah, you know, and it was 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:29.440 a little bit of an oversight, which is in itself 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:31.640 an amazing part of the story because one thing you 0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:34.799 read about is how carefully they tested everything and simulated 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:39.000 everything and accounted for every contingency and tested and retested 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.920 and simulated and resimulated. But there was one thing they 0:44:41.920 --> 0:44:46.240 did um slightly wrong, and that was so what happened 0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:49.359 was the main computer got overloaded because at the same 0:44:49.400 --> 0:44:52.440 time as they were loading up the final command sequences, 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.040 they were compressing some other image files that it had 0:44:56.040 --> 0:45:00.320 previously taken to make more room in the memory, and 0:45:00.800 --> 0:45:03.200 they was overloaded by doing all that. And you might ask, well, 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:06.799 why didn't they simulate that the compression, uh and the 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:09.320 loading of the commands at the same time. And the 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:13.000 answer is they had simulated that, but but the images 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:16.200 that they had been using to compress in the simulation 0:45:16.560 --> 0:45:21.800 were like fake images of planets. They were like empty 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:24.560 you know, empty circles to say, here's the planet image 0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:26.680 you're going to compress, you know, while you do this, 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:30.160 And it turned out that compared to the real images 0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:33.279 that it had to compress, they were um it was 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:36.240 it was more labor intensive for the for the computer 0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:38.680 to compress these real images and the fake images they 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:42.440 had gotten given. And so that was the oversight that 0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:45.640 caused the computer to get overloaded and crash and cause 0:45:45.719 --> 0:45:48.120 this whole thing to happen. So the problem was literally 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:53.200 that Pluto was too interesting. Kind yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:55.480 but it also just illustrates that, you know, no matter 0:45:55.560 --> 0:45:57.759 how careful you are, and these guys, I mean, what's 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:00.759 amazing is how careful they were because as you only 0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:04.560 get one chance, and unlike earlier missions, there was only 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:06.480 one New Horizons. I mean, you think of all the 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:12.359 classic missions of ex planetary exploration, there's Voyager, Viking, all 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:15.600 these ones, these pioneer first missions to places. They did 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:18.080 too in case one of them failed, and sometimes one 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:20.920 of them did fail. But in this case, budget wise 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:24.600 and for other reasons, there was only one small spacecraft 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:26.480 and so it had to be perfect. So they tested 0:46:26.520 --> 0:46:30.439 and retested and had backup systems. But even given all that, 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.600 there's just no way you can anticipate everything. And that's 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:36.719 why you need like an amazing team like they had 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.200 that can kick into action and solve problems when they 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:41.080 come up. All right, we're gonna jump in here and 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:46.759 take a quick break, but we'll be right back. And 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:50.160 we're back now. Of course, the journey doesn't end with 0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.280 with Pluto. Can you tell us a little bit about 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:56.439 Aero cough and the further adventures of New Horizons. Um, 0:46:56.480 --> 0:47:00.360 that's right. Pluto was, you know, maybe the highlight, but 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:03.600 certainly not not the end of the mission. And one 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.080 thing that was kind of innovative actually about New Horizons, 0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:10.239 very innovative, was that all along the plan was not 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:12.120 just to go to Pluto, but to go to Pluto 0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:15.799 and at least one and maybe more Coper Belt objects. 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:18.480 And and the mission was sold on that basis as 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:21.439 a mission to Pluto and the Coper Belt. But one 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.600 kind of crazy aspect of that is that at the 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:27.880 time of launch of New Horizons, they did not know 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:33.000 of another Copper Belt object that New Horizons could meet, 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:37.360 that could could could intersect after Puto with the amount 0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:39.399 of fuel and on the trajectory that it was on. 0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:44.440 But they had very good statistical arguments as to why 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:47.160 there should be such an object and why they should 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:52.120 would no problem be able to discover it before New 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:55.120 Horizons got to Pluto and redirect the trajectory because they 0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:57.160 knew that, you know, there were enough objects. They knew 0:47:57.200 --> 0:47:59.800 that they just they if you do the math, that 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:02.319 shouldn't be hard to find another place where Horizon to 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:04.800 go to after Pluto, and you're gonna find that object 0:48:05.040 --> 0:48:07.680 during the nine year journey to Pluto. So that logic 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:09.880 was in the proposal and it was pretty good. But 0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:14.160 then what happened was as New Horizons was approaching Pludo 0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:16.560 over all the years it does the Jupiter fly by, 0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:19.920 it redirects its trajectory. It's heading out towards Pluto, and 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:22.600 they're searching and searching with all the best ground based 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.520 telescopes on Mona Kea and all these big telescopes UM 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.080 and they're not finding the right object. They're not finding 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:32.759 an object that New Horizons can get to. And then 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:34.279 it got to the point where it was going to 0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:36.680 be too late and they weren't going to be able 0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:39.360 to UM execute that part of the mission. And the 0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:42.040 sort of the last minute they called in the Hubble 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:45.280 space telescope and there was some drama there because Hubble, 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:47.840 of course is very scheduled up for other observations and 0:48:47.840 --> 0:48:50.120 they had to kind of go to NASA Brass and say, look, 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:53.040 this is really important. If you want New Horizons to succeed, 0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:55.520 we need to sort of command here a little bit 0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:57.479 of time on the Hubble for the search to find 0:48:57.480 --> 0:48:59.840 an object. And there was some some drama and some 0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.400 you know, conflict and then but ultimately they were able 0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:04.759 to do it. And literally, you know, it's another one 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:07.000 of these sort of just a nick of time. Uh. 0:49:07.040 --> 0:49:11.959 They found an object that New Horizons could visit, which 0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:16.000 was you know MU sixty nine originally and then was 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:20.040 given a more appropriate name. But um, but so just 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:23.120 the finding of it was very dramatic and then um, 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:25.120 but but they did and then um, you know, they 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:28.240 did they made the right trajectory corrections so that after 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:32.879 after the Pluto encounter, New Horizons was on its way. Um, 0:49:32.920 --> 0:49:35.960 but had to go another billion miles and traveled all 0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:39.320 the way from July when they were at Pluto to 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:46.000 New Year's Eve. Um, you know, so another two and 0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:51.840 a half years. Um and um, finally, um, this encounter 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:55.600 happened and uh and boy was it amazing Again another 0:49:56.040 --> 0:49:59.280 surprising object that you know, you've probably seen the pictures 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.239 what it looked sort like a snowman. But just the 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:05.040 fact that it's this some kind of a contact binary. 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:10.600 These two objects sort of squished together, really reveal something 0:50:10.640 --> 0:50:13.600 about the formation of planets and the history of these 0:50:13.640 --> 0:50:16.560 objects in the Cooper Belt. And again you know, they're 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:19.960 just the targeting that went into it's incredible how difficult 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:22.440 it is. It's even harder than the targeting for Puda 0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:25.560 because this object is small. You're not completely sure where 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:27.680 it is, You're not completely sure where where the spacecraft is. 0:50:27.719 --> 0:50:30.240 You've got one shot to image it, you're moving very fast, 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:32.880 and you have to pre program the images in advance. 0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:35.400 And just the fact that you know, when they get 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:38.880 that frame down there's actually an object in focus in 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:41.680 the image rather than looking at empty space because you 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:45.080 targeted a little bit wrong. That's that's like people take 0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:47.000 that it's easy to take that for granted because it 0:50:47.000 --> 0:50:49.279 works so well, but that's you know, that's a real 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:53.319 incredible achievement. It is amazing. Um. So one thing I 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:55.280 was wondering if you don't mind kind of a tangent 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:58.640 while we're out here in the realm of transneptunity and objects. 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:03.200 I was wondering you have a professional opinion about something 0:51:03.200 --> 0:51:05.960 we've talked about on the show a while back, the 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:10.080 the evidence seeming to indicate the existence of a far off, 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.759 larger planet out there that well, I don't know if 0:51:12.800 --> 0:51:14.839 you'd use this terminology because of how you feel about 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:17.840 naming Pluto, but what's being called planet nine? Yeah, I 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:23.120 prefer planet X. But UM, my professional and my personal 0:51:23.120 --> 0:51:26.480 opinion is, UM, I hope they find it because it 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:30.120 would be so cool to learn about another large um 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:35.640 uh planet in our in our solar system. And UM, 0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:40.759 I think I'm skeptical just because the history of this 0:51:40.880 --> 0:51:45.560 kind of prediction is um you know, sort of littered 0:51:45.600 --> 0:51:49.880 with um you know, with things that weren't found where 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:52.360 people said, I haven't actually found it, but I've found 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:56.640 reason to believe it's there because of the statistical aberration 0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:00.920 in um, the in other orbits um uh. There's been 0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:06.280 a lot of sort of false alarms along those lines. UM. 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:10.200 But you know, whether or not we agree on what 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:15.399 numbers should be assigned to this punitive planet. I'm with 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:18.600 them completely in the hope that they do find it, 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.399 because it would be a wonderful discovery. Yeah, I'm very 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:26.200 intrigued by the idea. Uh so we uh we We 0:52:26.280 --> 0:52:28.360 mentioned earlier that we might give you some room to 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:31.800 talk about your passion planet, about Venus here at the 0:52:31.920 --> 0:52:33.640 end if you wanted to do do you have anything 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:35.880 to say about Venus? Like what, what? What do you 0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:38.399 have your eye on there right now? Well, I'm very 0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:42.160 much hoping that we do get a mission to Venus 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:45.080 in the next round of NASA selections, because they were 0:52:45.120 --> 0:52:50.240 really overdue, and um, there's too much mystery about about 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:52.760 that world, considering that it's you know, the closest planet 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:54.640 to us and in some ways the most earth like 0:52:54.840 --> 0:53:00.360 other planet. Um. And in particular, now we more and 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:02.680 more reason to think that Venus might have gone through 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:06.200 a long phase when it was a habitable world. We 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:08.920 used to have this this picture that Venus maybe had 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:11.600 oceans early on but lost them very quickly in the 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:16.480 runaway greenhouse. But the more we do detailed modeling of 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:20.760 how an early Venus would transition to a planet without 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:23.279 to a very hot and dry planet that we see 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:27.160 today the more we suspect that that took billions of years, 0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:29.920 and so it may be that Venus was an oceanic 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:34.600 planet like Earth for billions of years UM, which is 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:38.680 very intriguing. This picture of these two um very similar, 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:40.880 very very nearby worlds, both of which could have been 0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:44.200 habitable for you know, half the or half the history 0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:47.759 of the Solar System, um. And so there are a 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:51.400 lot there are a lot of mysteries that are very 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:54.640 compelling as far as understanding how Earth like worlds evolve, 0:53:54.760 --> 0:54:00.839 how climate evolves, um and UM. It's it's sitting right 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:02.879 there waiting for us to explore. I mean, of course, 0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:05.200 Venus is a hard place to explore because the surface 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:08.680 conditions now are so intense, and because it's completely shrouded 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:11.720 in clouds. You can't observe the surface from orbit except 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:15.520 in the radar. You can't get to the surface very 0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:19.759 easily without a really incredibly engineered machine. So it's not 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:22.680 you know, it makes sense that we've explored other places first, 0:54:22.680 --> 0:54:25.200 because Venus is not low hanging fruit as far as 0:54:25.239 --> 0:54:28.560 easy places to explore. But it's such a compelling place 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:31.359 as far as the mysteries there that I do think 0:54:31.400 --> 0:54:36.080 that before long, either NASA or the European Space Agency 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:39.319 or UM maybe even the Russians. I mean, there are 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:41.839 not there are a number of agencies considering ambitious new 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:47.319 missions to uh to Venus, and I'm excited and I 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:49.359 hope I'm I hope I'm still around when we really 0:54:49.360 --> 0:54:52.120 get to UM to answer some of these mysteries. For 0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:55.200 some reason, I've often thought or thought for a long 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:57.640 time one of the most haunting sets of images from 0:54:57.640 --> 0:55:00.880 the whole Solar System is just the those little tiny 0:55:00.960 --> 0:55:03.640 slivers we get of the surface of Venus from the 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.879 Soviet Venera landers. I there's not a lot in them, 0:55:06.880 --> 0:55:08.359 but every time I see them, I kind of get 0:55:08.360 --> 0:55:10.680 a shiver. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, there's something 0:55:10.760 --> 0:55:15.359 very kind of dreamlike about them, UM, because they look 0:55:15.440 --> 0:55:18.040 so real and so sort of familiar in some ways. 0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:20.920 I mean, here's a rocky world that's right next door. 0:55:21.160 --> 0:55:24.319 And yet because they're you know, maybe enhanced by the 0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:27.000 fact that the geometry of these images are so distorted, 0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:29.680 and we uh, just by the nature of the cameras 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:31.439 that got them, and we only have a few. It's 0:55:31.480 --> 0:55:33.560 just it's like this glimpse of a world that we 0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:38.080 can't really bring into focus. UM, and UM, it really 0:55:38.120 --> 0:55:40.120 makes you want to see more clearly what's you know, 0:55:40.160 --> 0:55:42.840 what's what's over that hill and what's you know, what's 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:45.759 what's really going on here? And so UM, yeah, next 0:55:45.800 --> 0:55:51.200 generation of spacecraft that could measure the minerals on the surface, UM, 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:56.000 measure that the composition of the atmosphere in a way 0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:59.880 that we haven't really done yet, measure what's going on 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:02.080 in the clouds where there's a lot of mystery and 0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:04.920 even some people think there could be um, some kind 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:07.799 of life in the clouds, I believe it or not. UM. 0:56:07.880 --> 0:56:09.839 But then but then also, like you say, you know, 0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:12.920 what's what's going on with those service images really images 0:56:12.960 --> 0:56:16.440 the surface well and just give us more of a visual, 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:20.480 uh and physical sense of what that place is like. UM. 0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:24.279 You know, I'm I'm very excited for that possibility. We'll 0:56:24.280 --> 0:56:25.839 tell us what we can do to help get us 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:32.960 back to Venus flud NASA with letters honestly, UM, you know, 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:38.160 it never hurts to talk to your elected representatives, but UM, 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:40.400 you know, honestly, I think just you know, when you 0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:45.080 have an appropriate chance expressing enthusiasm for the space program 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:49.839 and Planetariar planetary exploration in general is is a good thing, 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:53.759 And um, I don't you know, I feel like it's 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:58.120 I feel like there is momentum to do uh new 0:56:58.120 --> 0:57:00.080 missions to Venus, like it is going to happen and 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.000 in the next time scale of the next next decade. 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:06.400 So I'm maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I am optimistic 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:10.160 about it. All right. Well, the book is Chasing New 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:13.799 Horizons Inside the Epic First Mission to Pluto by Alan 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:17.240 Stern and David Grinspoon. It's available now, and I think 0:57:17.240 --> 0:57:20.120 all formats correct. Yes, that's right, it's even it just 0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:23.400 got just got published in Russian. If you're listening to 0:57:23.440 --> 0:57:26.840 this program and you don't speak English, excellent. Alright, So 0:57:27.560 --> 0:57:29.720 that book is is out In the past, you've written 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:33.479 on Venus and you've written on Earth. Uh so where 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:36.320 are you headed next? And how can listeners keep up 0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:39.840 with your work? Well, Um, I have a website, um 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:45.720 Funky science dot net and um that's I sometimes remember 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:49.080 to keep it current. I'm on Twitter as Dr Funky 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:54.480 Spoon um, and um yeah, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be. 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:56.040 I've got all kinds of things going. I'm gonna be 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:59.160 teaching a class at Georgetown this spring on how to 0:57:59.200 --> 0:58:01.720 Predict the Future, which maybe that'll turn into a book, 0:58:01.760 --> 0:58:05.320 I hope. So and uh, you know, just catch me 0:58:05.360 --> 0:58:09.520 if you can. All right, Well, well, once again thanks 0:58:09.560 --> 0:58:12.040 for taking time out of your day to chat with us. Um. 0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:15.680 You know, the book is fabulous and we we strongly 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:17.960 recommend it to all our listeners. Well, thanks for god, 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:19.880 it's been great having the opportunity to talk to you guys. 0:58:20.120 --> 0:58:24.720 Thanks David, thank you. All right, So there you have 0:58:24.880 --> 0:58:27.480 it again. The title of the book is Chasing New 0:58:27.520 --> 0:58:31.400 Horizons Inside the epic First Mission to Pluto by Alan 0:58:31.480 --> 0:58:35.200 Stern and David Grinspoon. It's out in just about any 0:58:35.200 --> 0:58:37.840 format you could possibly want a book. And then again, 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:40.880 I just have to drive home just how entertaining this 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.800 book is. You might not think you want a book 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:48.080 about machines and planets and distant planets, but it is. 0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:50.480 It is really exciting. In the meantime, if you want 0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:52.520 to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 0:58:52.560 --> 0:58:54.240 head on over Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 0:58:54.320 --> 0:58:56.760 That'll set you on the right path. But you can 0:58:56.800 --> 0:58:59.960 find this podcast anywhere you get your podcasts these days. 0:59:00.160 --> 0:59:02.960 Wherever that happens to be. Make sure that you subscribe 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:04.760 and make sure that you rate in review, because this 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:07.520 really helps us out. Huge thanks, of course to Dr 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:10.640 David Grinspoon for joining us, but huge thanks as always 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:14.600 to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 0:59:14.600 --> 0:59:16.560 would like to get in touch with us with feedback 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:19.000 on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:20.960 for the future, or just to say hello, you can 0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:24.120 email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:33.720 dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:36.200 of iHeart Radios How stuff Works. For more podcasts For 0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:39.120 my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:50.200 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.