1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for an older episode 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally published on December thirty one, 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and this was our interview with David Grinspoon 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: on the planet Pluto. Wait, the planet Pluto. He would 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: say planet other people would not, right, right, Yeah, we 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: get into that a bit in this, uh, this discussion. 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: It's really a great interview episode. Um, Dr Funky Spoon. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: It was a real pleasure to chat with very passionate 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: about about Pluto. Uh, Pluto exploration, as as well as 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: with other planets that we discuss a bit in this episode. 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. In today we're bringing you an interview 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: with Dr David Grinspoon. That's right. Uh. Dr David Grinspoon 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: is an astrobiologist, award winning science communicator, and prize winning author, 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: and is a senior scientist at the Planetary Science Institute UM. Yes, 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: and he is the co author, along with Dr Alan Stern, 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: principal investigator of the New Horizons Mission. They're the authors 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: of Chasing New Horizons Inside the Ethic First Mission to Pluto. 23 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: This was a really fun conversation. I'm really glad we've 24 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: got to talk to David about Pluto, about space exploration, 25 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: about planets in general. And I think you are going 26 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: to love this conversation. That's right, even if you're not 27 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: that into Pluto, or you think you're not that into Pluto. 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: There's also some Venus talk in there, so it's it's tremendous. 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: Definitely check it out. We're just going to dive right 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: into the interview and meet you on the other end. 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: All right, well, thanks for coming on the show on 32 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. Would you please introduce yourself 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: to our listeners. And my name is David in Spoon. 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm an astrobiologist at the Planetary Science Institute UM AND 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: I study planetary evolution and I get involved in some 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: spacecraft missions to other planets and I've I've written a 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: few books, most recently Chasing New Horizons Inside the Epic 38 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: First Mission to Puto, which I co authored with Alan Stern, 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: who was the h himself, the leader of the epic 40 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: first mission to puta awesome I just want to stress 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: to everyone listening this is a great book and if 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: anyone is scared off from it, thinking, oh, I don't 43 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: want to read about space probes and a far flung 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: dwarf planet, I just want to reassure them that this 45 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: is not only a very insightful book, it's it really 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: has a it really is a narrative of the adventure 47 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: in many respects. So I wanted to ask, how did 48 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: how did you come to write, uh, to come to 49 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: co author what some have called a nonfiction Michael Crichton novel. 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: Well I like that, um like that description. Yeah. Well, 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: this story, the story of New Horizons and of the 52 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: exploration of Pluto, is one that I've been following closely 53 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: for a long time. Uh much longer actually than there 54 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: was a mission called New Horizons. There was an effort 55 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: to send a mission to Pluto, and it just so 56 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: happened that being a planetary scientists and coming up through 57 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, grad school and and all that, at a 58 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: certain time that a lot of the people that I'm 59 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: close with and friends with UM and have known for 60 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: a long time, have been caught up, uh and became 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: part of this this effort. So this was a struggle 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: that people were going through who I knew well for 63 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: for decades, and at times it seemed like a very 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: quixotic journey, like there's no way this is going to happen. 65 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: I can't believe what these guys are going through. I 66 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: can't believe they're not giving up. And and I remember 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: we're thinking, you know, well over a decade ago, probably 68 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: a couple of decades ago. Wow, you know, if these 69 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: guys ever actually succeed in doing this, it's gonna be 70 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: a great story. It's gonna make a great book someday. 71 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: It's gonna be a great book anyways, because of what 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: these guys are going through. But if they actually succeed, 73 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: it's gonna be an amazing book. I remember thinking that UM, 74 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: and then more recently in UM I guess two thousand 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: and fourteen, when New Horizons was actually approaching Pluto, finally 76 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: Alan Stern, who I've known for a long time, approached 77 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: me and said, hey, I'm thinking of I want to 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: write a book about New Horizons, and uh, I want 79 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: to do it. With with a co author, and and 80 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: you're my first choice, and um, I was, I was 81 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: really psyched. I mean, you know, when you get an 82 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: offer like that, what's the right answer? You know, yes, 83 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: of course. And so so we agreed to enter into 84 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: a partnership and and try to tell the story. Um 85 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: and um. You know that had that had its own 86 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: kinds of challenges because obviously Alan's relationship to the story 87 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: is very different from mine. And how are we gonna 88 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,119 Speaker 1: sort of combine our two perspectives and uh and tell 89 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: tell the story where he you know, he's a character 90 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: in the book. Um, and it's it's his mission. But 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: we we worked really hard on that and thought about 92 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: how we could use that as a strength or that, 93 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of combination of our two perspectives, 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: and I, uh, it was. It was tricky, but I 95 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: think I think we succeeded in producing a book that 96 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: not only tells a pretty exciting story, but does it 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: in a unique way. Absolutely. You know, at time treating 98 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: this book, I kept coming back to a question that 99 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: I guess may may sound a little cheeky, but but 100 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: also probably gets to some of the challenges of the 101 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: space exploration. Whether it's harder to send a spacecraft to 102 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: Pluto or to successfully push a mess mission proposal through NASA. 103 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: And I want to come back to that, you know, 104 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: get your thoughts on that, but but I thought it 105 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: might be nice to touch on that, that first challenge 106 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: and uh, you know the amazing methods that we use 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: to send spacecraft through the Solar System. Would you tell 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: our listeners about our early dreams of a Grand Tour 109 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: and the time frame for capitalizing on what you describe 110 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: is excellently described in the book, is a kind of stargate? Yeah, well, um, 111 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: I love the first part of your question, so we 112 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: definitely need to get back to that, because yes, it's 113 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: there's some ways in which it's harder to navigate h Washington, 114 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: d C. Than than Um, than the outer Solar System. 115 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Both those have their own challenges and 116 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: you have to learn how to be good at both 117 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: if you want to do this. But um, the Grand Tour, 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: M Yeah, so well, it's it's very difficult to send 119 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: the spacecraft as far as Pluto. Um. And if you 120 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: were just going to launch from Earth with a normal 121 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: rocket and just try to head out there, it would 122 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: take um, well, much longer than the New Horizons took. 123 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: You know, when New Horizon basically took only a decade 124 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: to cross the Solar System, it would take longer because 125 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: the distances are so great. But um, you can take 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: advantage of something called a gravitational assist where you fly 127 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: in close to a giant planet with a huge gravitational 128 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: pull and if you aim in just the right way, um, 129 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: then you use the gravity, the giant gravitational pool of 130 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: that giant planet to sort of sling shot you around. 131 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: You know, it pulls you in, but you missed the 132 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: planet and then it flings you out and you have 133 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: to aim just right. But you can use that to 134 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: get a boost, a big pick up and speed, which 135 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: makes it much quicker to execute the rest of your 136 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: journey across the Solar System. If you've if you've done 137 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: everything right. And the first time this was really used 138 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: to dramatic effect was the Voyager mission. The Voyager missions 139 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: which we're you know, our first close by buys of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, 140 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: and Neptune voyagers. They launched in seventy seven. The Neptune 141 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: encounter of Voyager two was which was the last one 142 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: was nine so all through the late seventies and in 143 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: the eighties, these missions were going planet to planet and 144 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: sort of expanding our our knowledge of our Solar System 145 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: and dramatic encounters. And there's a certain element of luck 146 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: there that a lot of people really aren't probably aware of. 147 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: But if you look historically, I mean, you know, we 148 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: started sending spacecraft to other planets in the sixties, and 149 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, the Venus Mars in the sixties, and then 150 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: um started thinking about farther going farther afield. And it 151 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: just so happens that occasionally there's a lineup of all 152 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: the planets in just the right way, so that if 153 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: you launch at the right time, you can sling shot 154 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: past Jupiter and then that sends you to Saturn, and 155 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: then you sling shot past Saturn and that sends you 156 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: to your earnest and then to Neptune and then to Pluto, 157 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: et cetera. UM. And but you have to picture the 158 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: planets have to be lined up just right, sort of 159 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: like beads on a spiral going out from the Sun, 160 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: and that alignment only happens every couple hundred years. And 161 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: the amazing historical luck that I that I was mentioning 162 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: that people aren't aware of is that in the late 163 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, scientists became aware, you know, 164 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: just when we were gaining the ability to launch spacecraft 165 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: off of birth and going to the planets for the 166 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: first time, scientists became aware that one of these what 167 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: they call Grand Tour alignments was coming up in the 168 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: late nineteen seventies and eighties, so that if you launched 169 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: a spacecraft by the mid to late nineteen seventies from Earth, 170 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: you could do this Grand tour and go all the 171 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: way out to the earnest Neptune Pluto. But if you 172 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: missed that window, that nineteen seventies window, you wouldn't get 173 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 1: another chance like this for a couple of hundred years. 174 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: So you know, it's started just in the nick of time. 175 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: But it was also a rush to launch because this. 176 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: People realize this, and the scientists proposed a grand tour 177 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: in the early seventies, and then Congress said, no, that's 178 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: too expensive, go back to the drawing board, and they 179 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: were like, well, we don't have much time to get 180 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: this together. You know. There was some drama there, but 181 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: they reproposed and Voyager got approved and the Grand Tour 182 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: mission became the Voyager mission, which culminated in uh in 183 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: the encounter, the amazing encounter with Neptune and it's moon 184 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: Triton in with Voyager two, and as we tell in 185 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: the book Chasing New Horizons, in a lot of ways 186 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: of that encounter set the stage for the desire to 187 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: go to Pluto, because with Neptune, uh you know, it 188 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: was sort of all over for that generation, and people, 189 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: young scientists were like, well, wait a minute, there's more 190 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: to explore. What are we going to do? And Triton, 191 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: which was the last place the Voyager went, little moon 192 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: of Neptune is is a very sort of Puto like place, 193 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: a really strange, icy world with solid nitrogen basins and 194 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: all this strange activity and geography, and it made people think, gosh, 195 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: if we could only send a mission to Pluto. And 196 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: right sort of in the wake of the end of 197 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: the Voyager mission, at least the Voyager Planetary Encounters was 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: born the desire, uh you know, it really in nine 199 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: for this this crazy idea of sending a mission to Pluto, 200 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: which culminated, uh, you know, twenty six years later with 201 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: a successful fly by of Pluto. By New Horizons in 202 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: two fifteen. Now you were talking about gravity assist there, 203 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,239 Speaker 1: and and of course the what ultimately became New Horizons, 204 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: the New Horizons mission, and went through you discussed all 205 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: the different sort of versions of the proposal. At one 206 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: point the proposal was actually actually involved sending a craft 207 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: towards the Sun first, right. Oh, yeah, that was one 208 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: trajectory that would have worked, um as far as using 209 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: these gravitational encounters to get to Pluto. But it would 210 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: have involved going towards the Sun and flying by Venus 211 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: first and then back by Earth. And which is, by 212 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: the way, something that is um done. Uh. You know, 213 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: that's actually how both both Galileo and Cassini on their 214 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: way to Jupiter and Saturn both did venus fly bys. Um. 215 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: Sometimes you go in and pick up speed and then 216 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: you fling back outwards. But it was really not optimal 217 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: for a small Pluto mission, and it was it would 218 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: have worked, but it would have taken more years um. 219 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: And it already takes a long time to get out 220 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: to Pluto. Um. And also UM, I mean it would 221 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: have saved energy and money, and that's the other thing. 222 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: You're not just doing this to save time. On the journey. 223 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: You you want to launched a smaller rocket and still 224 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: have enough energy to get to the Outer Solar System, 225 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: and that's where these encounters help you also by kicking 226 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: up speed. So it would have worked. But you also 227 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: it's not optimal because when you're designing something to endure 228 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: the coldness of the outer Outer Solar System where Pluto is, 229 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: you really don't want to send that spacecraft in towards 230 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: the Sun and endure the thermal environment near Venus if 231 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: you can help it. So it was one of the 232 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: things that came onto the table to possibly save the 233 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: Pluto mission, which had to be done multiple times when 234 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: things got canceled and the budget got constricted or whatever, 235 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: but it turned out to not really be the best 236 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: way to do it. Yeah, you lay out, you know, 237 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: all the close calls that just the uh, you know, 238 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: the the quest to send a craft to Pluto went through. 239 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: How many close calls were there, and how astounding is 240 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: it that the mission happened at all. It really is 241 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: kind of a pails of Pauline story, you know, where 242 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: everything that can go wrong almost did go wrong. Um, 243 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 1: and you know that's that's part of part of why 244 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: I love the story because we wanted to let people 245 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: know not just what happened and how it was done, 246 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: but really what it takes to get something through the 247 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: system and all the different things that can derail it. 248 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: And this story kind of combines all of those hazards it. Uh, 249 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: it had to be UM. It was canceled by two 250 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: different successive presidential administrations UM. And that you know, one 251 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: of the risk of these things is the time scale 252 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: is long enough that you get it through and the 253 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: government finally says, yeah, we're gonna fund this, we like it, 254 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: and then you get a new government and that wasn't 255 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: our idea. Forget it. And this happened multiple times UM. 256 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: And then you know, they sort of kept changing the 257 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: rules on new horizons and then there you know, there's 258 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: so many interesting crises. One was had to do with 259 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: the nuclear power that you have to have a nuclear 260 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: power source when you're going that far from the sun UM, 261 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: and that introduces other UM hazards. I mean, just just 262 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the regulation. Uh, it's crazy getting something 263 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: like that approved, especially when you've got a ticking clock 264 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: and you have to launch by a certain date or 265 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna miss your Jupiter fly by window and so 266 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: that was tricky. And then all these things happened. Last 267 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: last Albumos Lab, which is the only place where they 268 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: make the plutonium, got shut down because of a security breach, 269 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: um and uh, they weren't gonna have enough time to 270 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: get enough plutonium. And you know, so that's one whole 271 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: area of of intrigue. And and you know, near mishap 272 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: and then you know, there were there were a couple 273 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: of just unfortunate technical accidents. There were um, you know, 274 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: there was a lot of kind of like political um uh, 275 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: just maschinations within NASA and outside of NASHA that outside 276 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: of NASA that doomed seemingly doomed to the mission again 277 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: and again and and and this team, this crazy team 278 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: of you know, they called themselves the Pluto Underground, that 279 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: were committed to this goal. They kept having to pick 280 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: themselves up and dust themselves off and basically start again. 281 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: And um it's really it's really an amazing story of 282 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: perseverance that they just didn't let it go. Yeah, I 283 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: mean not only the you discussed, not only like the 284 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: technological hurdles and then of course the political sphere, but 285 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: but even just within the realm of space exploration. Like suddenly, 286 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: given that that grand times span for the for the project, Uh, 287 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: new new things become exciting just within the realm of 288 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,479 Speaker 1: space exploration that can potentially detract from a mission like this, right, yeah, absolutely, 289 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: So you know there's something that something comes along. You know, 290 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: again we're talking to an effort that started really succeeded 291 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: in two fifteen, and you know it's a shifting landscape. 292 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: New discoveries happen, UM, new constituencies form with a NASA 293 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: to do do other kinds of missions. I mean, for instance, 294 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: one thing that that came along UM during this time 295 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: period was that Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter, got 296 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: much more interesting in the in the sense that we 297 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: discovered um with the Galletle mission, we discovered that Europa 298 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: likely has an ocean and is a possible habitable environment. 299 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: So um, the Pluto mission is doing well, and then 300 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's this huge movement within the 301 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: planetary science community to divert resources and compete a mission 302 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: to Europa instead because of these discoveries, and and you know, 303 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: nobody on the New Horizons team is going to argue, well, 304 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: Europe is not interesting and not important. I wouldn't argue 305 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: that that for a second. Everybody, you know, we all 306 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: acknowledge that these are all important goals, but there's the 307 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: shiny new thing all of a sudden, you know, late 308 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: a minute. We've been waiting our turn, you know, so 309 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: that things things like that happened multiple times. I actually 310 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: have heard of like a planetary partisanship before. You know, 311 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: I had a friend who did some research on Jupiter's 312 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: moon Io and she had some kind of negative things 313 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: to say about Europa. Well, okay, I mean there is 314 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: there is definitely an element of that. And in a way, 315 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: then the way NASA sets up it's UM, it's competition 316 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: for missions, UM kind of encourages that because there are 317 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: these different UM interest groups within NASA. There's like, I mean, 318 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in Venus exploration, so I'm part of 319 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: this group called VEX at the Venus Exploration Activities Group, 320 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: And there's me PAD, which is the Mars Exploration Activities Group, 321 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: and then there's the Outer Planets Activities Group. And you 322 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: know when we when NASA does their annual h decadal 323 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: ranking of mission priorities, were sort of organized into these 324 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: different constituencies and we're all putting our favorite mission forward. 325 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: So there is this competition, um, and then even beyond that, 326 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: when there's a call for new missions, you know there's 327 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: going to be a small or medium class or large 328 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: class mission. Different teams compete, you know, And I've been 329 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: on these teams, and you put years into these missions, 330 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: and you compete really hard. So of course you want 331 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: your mission. I mean, I want my Venus mission that 332 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm a co investigator on to be selected. And then 333 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: when an asteroid mission or a Jupiter mission or something 334 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: gets selected instead, I'm really bummed about that same time. 335 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: So that's true, and that's partly just a measure of 336 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: the way we compete things. But I do have to say, 337 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: and I and this is really true, that there's a 338 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: larger sense in which we're all on the same team 339 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: and feel that way. So that when the competition is 340 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: over and one of these missions comes to the launch pad, 341 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: whether it's a Mars mission and asteroid mission, uh whatever, 342 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: everybody in the community cheers that launch. I mean, because 343 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: we all, you know, when you back up from that, 344 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: we're all pretty psyched about exploring the whole Solar System. 345 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: And even though you'll hear me and some of my 346 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: colleagues grumble about, oh my got another Mars mission got funded, 347 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: what about Venus? What about you know? But then then 348 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: when that Mars mission actually launches and lands successfully, we 349 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: get tears in our eyes too, and we're like, this 350 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: is so amazing. So you know, we yeah, we compete 351 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: for our separate constituencies, but we all I think also 352 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: genuinely u root for and identify with the larger project 353 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: of exploring the sol war system. Yeah, I want to 354 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: be clear in case my friend is listening. She I 355 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: think she was joking when she was slagging. Well, I mean, 356 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: we do talk about it, you know, every scheme and 357 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: like market I hope people, you know, But at the 358 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: end of the day, we're I mean, and you know, 359 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: of course you get personal um grudges and all. You know, 360 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: human human beings are human beings. But at the end 361 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: of the day, uh, we're all pretty excited about about 362 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: all of the exploration. All right, we're gonna jump in 363 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: here and take a quick break, but we'll be right back, 364 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: and we're back. I found it really astounding, especially to 365 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: think about this as we were at the very close 366 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: of the decade, as we're recording this, but at one point, 367 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: I think during two thousand you mentioned that NASA just 368 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: shelved the idea of a Pluto mission altogether until the twenties. 369 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: So I think it's it's amazing to think that there's 370 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: like an alternate timeline out there in which you and 371 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: Alan might have written a book about the desire for 372 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: a Pluto mission in the twenties rather than what we 373 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: have a definitive history of the planet's first exploration. That's right. 374 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many alternate timelines like that, And 375 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: this was a case where basically, um, you know, more 376 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: than once NASA let it, you know, got to the 377 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: stage where there's going to be a competition for this mission, 378 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 1: which is a huge win for the people wanting to 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: go to Puto. It's like NASA sponsoring a competition for proposals. 380 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 1: That means that they're gonna pick a winning proposal and 381 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: then somebody gets to fly mission to Pluto and hopefully 382 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: it's our team, but at least it's some team, so 383 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: that's great. But then they have this competition and everybody 384 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: works really really hard on all their proposals, and you know, 385 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: it's this crazy amount of effort to get this in 386 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: and then NASA says at the end of it, well, 387 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: actually we're not picking anybody, and um, the whole concept 388 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: is is canceled um because a budget problems. And by 389 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: the way, we're just not going to go to Pluto 390 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: for the next twenty years. So that was actually something 391 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: that was declared by the Associate Administrator of NASA at 392 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: one point, and that was really a low point for 393 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: the morale, as you can imagine. But there were interesting 394 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: things that happened, um at that point. Um, there was 395 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: a big public interest campaign. There was the Planetary Society 396 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: got involved. There are a group that advocates a public 397 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: membership group that advocates for planetary exploration and other um. 398 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: You know, the public got involved and there was a 399 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: lot of pressed about this and people were like demanding, no, 400 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: we want our government, we want NASA to send a 401 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: mission to Pluto. And then NASA got tens of thousands 402 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: of letters saying you can't cancel Pluto, we want this. 403 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: And so there were points and that that point you 404 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: mentioned where it was completely canceled was one in particular 405 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: where the public input became really key to keeping the 406 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: effort going. UM. And you know, of course there were 407 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: efforts by the Pudo underground to sort of help marshal 408 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: that public interest and encourage letter writing. But at the 409 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: same time it was really genuine. There was there was 410 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: indeed an outpouring of mass public support. And UM. That's 411 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: another thing that's interesting I think about the whole story. 412 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: Was it at the heart of it, there's this band 413 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: of sort of I guess I don't want to quite 414 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: call them fanatics but almost but like you know, really 415 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: determined UM scientists, UM, who wanted to do this UM. 416 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: But then UM there's also the larger planetary scientists community 417 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: that had to be sort of won over to their cause. 418 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: And then and then outside of that, there's just the 419 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: public that got very involved and at times, UM, the 420 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: support of the public was pivotal in UM keeping the 421 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: effort going and ultimately and ensuring a success. So we 422 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: know you have a special place in your heart for Venus, 423 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: and maybe we can come back to that later on. 424 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: But what is so captivating in particular about Pluto. Well, Pluto, 425 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: of course, you know, historically it's been the place that 426 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: we just didn't know anything about, UM and uh so 427 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: it was you know, in science fiction from the golden 428 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: age of science fiction in the you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, 429 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: when we really didn't know anything about Pluto. It's this um, 430 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: this kind of mystery world um, and there's a lot 431 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: of great law laura about Pluto. But then, of course, scientifically, 432 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: once we started to learn about the existence of the 433 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: Cooper Belt, which is this whole third realm of the 434 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: Solar System. You know, you've got the inner rocky planets, 435 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: the outer gas giants, and then the outer outer Coiper Belt, 436 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: which is this vast zone of these icy and rocky objects, 437 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, millions of them beyond the orbit of Neptune 438 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: that we didn't even know about. All we knew about 439 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: was Pluto. It turned out, we discovered really in the 440 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: in the ninety nineties that Pluto is the tip of 441 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: the iceberg of this huge unknown realm of the Solar System. 442 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: And so that in itself made it very interesting to 443 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: want to go and visit one of these bodies, because 444 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: those are leftovers from the formation of the Solar System. 445 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: You know, they're sort of leftover building pile of building 446 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: materials that made the planets. So we know there's answers 447 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: out there too, questions of our own origins, but then, 448 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, there was always the possibility, certainly in my mind, 449 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: and I know in the mind of some of the 450 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: other um, some of the people involved in the mission, 451 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: that well, what if, against all odds, this thing actually 452 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: works and we get to Pluto, And then what if 453 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: it's kind of boring. It's be cool to get there, 454 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,959 Speaker 1: no matter what, but what if it's just kind of 455 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: like a a crater ice ball um. You know, you 456 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: could learn some things, you count the creators, you measured 457 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: with the serviceman out of it. You know, it would 458 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: it would no matter what, it would be cool. But 459 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: but in the back of my mind it was like, well, 460 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, what if it's just not the most exciting place. 461 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: And it seemed plausible because we have this sort of 462 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: prejudice against um cold places that are far from other things. 463 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: We expect them to be inactive, and that's you know, 464 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: in our textbooks, you know, we thought the moons of 465 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: Jupiter would be boring and inactive, and it turns out 466 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: there not because the gravitational pull of Jupiter makes them 467 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: pulse with activity. We didn't know that until we got there. 468 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: By the same token, a lot of people thought Pluto 469 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: would be boring and inactive. And the thing that's if 470 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: I had to summarize, you know, and a very short 471 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: number of sentences, what's surprising and exciting about Pluto compared 472 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: to our expectations is that it's really active. It's geologically alive. 473 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: It's not old and dead and just covered with creators. 474 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: It pulses with activity and that is something that nobody expected. 475 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: And when those first pictures came in, um, you know, 476 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: there was like, in addition to joy and elation and 477 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: just share amazement by the the team members, there was 478 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: also this puzzlement of what is going on there? Why 479 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: is this place so far from the sun. Also, you know, 480 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: it's not discovered in creators. There's clearly activity going on there. 481 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: And at first it was you know, it really was 482 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, a massive head scratching moment to figure out, okay, 483 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: what what's going on? And it it's just so varied 484 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: and um active and complex in a surprising and delightful 485 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: way that um, you know, I'm still kind of wrapping 486 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: my head around that. Well, would you mind telling us 487 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: a few like what are some of these most exciting 488 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: and like the strangest revelations about this object? Yeah? What 489 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: makes Pluto weird. So the first thing you notice, and 490 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of poetry in this, but it's true. 491 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: You know, as you're approaching Pluto, even days away, you 492 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: see this bright heart shaped feature the heart of Pluto, 493 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: which is just kind of lovely, but it's also that 494 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: turns out to be a very very intriguing and interesting formation. 495 00:27:53,960 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: It's this massive, um, huge glacier of solid nitrogen um 496 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: called Sputnik Poinecia. A lot of the places on Pluto 497 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: have now been named after famous explorers or missions of exploration, 498 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: and so we've got Tombao Reggio. The heart itself is 499 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: named Tombaw Reggio, really, which is the after Clyde Tombau, 500 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: the discover of Pluto. And then the big um western 501 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: or left ventricle if you will have, the hard western 502 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: smooth area is the Sputnik Plinicia, which is this massive 503 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: glacier of flowing solid nitrogen. And that was the big 504 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, so you see this area, it's big, 505 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: it's bright, and there are absolutely no craters on it. 506 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: Zero And I remember John Spencer, who's you know, one 507 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: of these old friends from grad school. I was mentioning, 508 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: who's been involved in this mission for a long long time. 509 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: Who's one of the UH you know, very central. He's 510 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: in the book. He's one of the people that helped 511 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: UH plan the mission, and UM did a lot of 512 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: important work and a lot of the scientific analysis. I 513 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: remember him saying on the day of the encounter, if 514 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: you had told me that the first that I've ever 515 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: told me that I'd see the first high resolution image 516 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: of Pluto and it would have zero impact craters, no craters, 517 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: I would not have believed you. And that's because craters 518 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: are sort of our our chronometers. You know, when you 519 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: see a planetary surface full of craters, you know it's 520 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: an old surface that not much has happened to. It's 521 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: just been collecting creators over the eons. And when you 522 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: see a surface with no craters, then you say, Okay, 523 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: something's happening here. There's more recent activities, something filling in 524 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: the old holes and paving it over. And this was, 525 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, a massive area UM with with no craters. 526 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: And it turns out UM that and we didn't know 527 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: this UM, but we should have known it because there's 528 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: no new physics involved. It was just lack of imagination 529 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: or you know, this is why we explore because you 530 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: discovered things and you go, oh, I should have thought 531 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: of that, But but that that it turns out that 532 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: solid nitrogen at plute temperatures is squishy enough so that 533 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: you build up enough of it that it does flow 534 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: over geologic time with a little bit of heat. And 535 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of heat coming from the interior 536 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: of Puto, so um basically that activity is convicting and 537 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: flowing solid nitrogen which covers this massive area on Puto. 538 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: And then closer and you look, you see like things 539 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: that are you realize there's glaciers of nitrogen flowing out 540 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: of the steep mountains on the edge of this thing, 541 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: and the mountains are made out of um water ice 542 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: because water ice there has the properties of bedrock. You know, 543 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: it's so cold. But if you actually look at those mountains, 544 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: they have roughly the the height and shape of like 545 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: the rocky mountains on Earth. You know, they're like fourteen 546 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: thousand foot peaks of water ice with glaciers of solid 547 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: nitrogen flowing out of them onto these nitrogen plans. So 548 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a you can find forms that 549 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: look familiar and yet you look at what they're made 550 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: out of, and they're just really exotic materials. Isn't there 551 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: also some amazing precipitation situation on Pluto. Yes, and again 552 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: it's another one of these things where it's something that 553 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: looks familiar, but it's weird stuff doing it. So on 554 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: some of the high mountains, they're they're snow capped, but 555 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: it's not snow the way we usually think of it. 556 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: There are there's methane snow on top of some of these, 557 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: so you have you know, it's it's the same things 558 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: that you have on on Earth you have rock mountains 559 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: and water ice glaciers and water ice snow. On Pluto 560 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: you have uh, water ice mountains with nitrogen glaciers and 561 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: methane snow. All right, So as long as we're talking 562 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: about just the property to Pluto. I originally wasn't going 563 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: to ask about this because I know you get it 564 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: a lot um and but you also discussed it in 565 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: the book. So my second grade son is studying the 566 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: planets in school and he really wants you to weigh 567 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: in on this is Pluto planet. So my one word 568 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: answer is yes, But what I would tell your son 569 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 1: because maybe he's confused by hearing that because he might 570 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: have heard in school, but it's not. I would try 571 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: to use it as a teachable moment and say, well, 572 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: here's why some scientists think it's not, and here's why 573 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: some scientists think it is. Because you know, to my mind, 574 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: what makes something a planet or not UM has to 575 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: do with its intrinsic properties. What's that object like, uh, 576 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, and and in my view, anything that's large 577 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: enough to be round by its own gravity and have 578 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: um the features that we associate with planets at you know, 579 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: surface activity and mountains and atmosphere, which Pluto does, makes 580 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: sense to call it a planet. Um the i AU 581 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: definition which became very popular and which some people consider 582 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to be official, although though I don't UM, it's base 583 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: more on not the properties of that object, but what's 584 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: around it, how it's orbiting, and what's orbiting around it. 585 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: And you know, if you're the kind of astronomer that 586 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: doesn't think so much about what planets the properties of 587 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: planets themselves, doesn't worry about geology and meteorology, but is 588 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: interested in um looking through telescopes and identifying orbiting objects 589 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: and thinking about classifying your orbits in different ways, then 590 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: I can see how that sort of makes sense, um, 591 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: but but it also at least leads to some sort 592 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: of absurdities. I mean, the basic thing is they say 593 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: that if a planet dominates its zone and has cleared 594 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,239 Speaker 1: out other material, then it's actually a planet, and if 595 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: it hasn't, then it's something else called a dwarf planet, 596 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: which isn't really a planet. Um is what is said. 597 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: The problem is at least to some silly in my 598 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: view of silly things like if you took Earth and 599 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: moved it somewhere else where there was a swarm of material, 600 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: then it wouldn't be a planet anymore, or even worse, 601 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: even worse by that definition. Earth itself was not a 602 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: planet for its first five million in years of existence, 603 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: when it was being pelted with objects that you know, 604 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: in its zone that had not yet been cleared out, 605 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: and then it became a planet at some point, not 606 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: because it changed, but because it's environment changed. So um, 607 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: what you will find is that, um, there's a difference 608 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: in the way planetary scientists speak about this from astronomers 609 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: in general. And I'm a planetary scientist. I study planets 610 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: for living and me and really most of my colleagues. 611 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: I think we use the word planet when we talk 612 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: about Pluto. We even use the word planet when we 613 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: talk about um, the larger planet like moons like Io 614 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: and Uh and Tighten, because because again they have the 615 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: features that we are interested in thinking about and comparing 616 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: between worlds. So UM, I guess you could tell your 617 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: son going back to that, that some scientists UM that 618 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the scientists who study planets use the 619 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: word planet when talk about Puto because it has these things. 620 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: And then and then tell them about Puda instead of 621 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: worrying about the the definition, say, because it has mountains, 622 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: and it has an atmosphere, and it's big and round 623 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: because of gravity. And you know, hopefully when you talk 624 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: to kids, you steer the conversation into something more interesting 625 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: than scientists arguing about nomenclature and actually talk about what's 626 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: cool about Puda. You know, absolutely now speaking of nomenclature, uh. 627 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: You also at one point in the book you talk 628 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: about the you know, the naming of the planet and 629 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: some of the you list some of the potential names 630 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: that were thrown out there at one point. So you know, 631 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: if we're considering alternative history, there's also an alternative timeline 632 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: where we're not talking about the exploration of Pluto, we're 633 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: talking about the exploration of Tomboy, which was one of 634 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: my favorites from that list you share. Yeah, now that was. 635 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, so the discovery of Pluto in itself is 636 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: a really just cool story which we try to encapsulate 637 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: in the book because Tombo himself was a really interesting character. Nately, 638 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: So again another kind of against all odds, perseverance wins 639 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: the day kind of story which is echoed, uh, you know, 640 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: seventy years or eighty years later in the story of 641 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: the success of of New Horizons. But when um, the 642 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: planet was discovered at low observatory, Um, then um, you know, 643 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: they of course they made sure not to tell anybody 644 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: until they were absolutely They checked their work and we 645 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: were absolutely certain they have found something. They didn't want 646 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: to be accused of a false alarm. And but then 647 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: once they were sure, they announced it to the world 648 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: and it was in all the newspapers and everything. And 649 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: then ideas came flooding in telegrams from from all over 650 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: the world, um, uh, suggesting and letters suggesting names, um, 651 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: and some of them are pretty funny. I mean, well, 652 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: first of all, there was some there was some politics involved, 653 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: like personal glowals who was the guy that you know 654 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: found rich Bostonian astronomer who founded the Lobo Ervatory where 655 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: it was um the search was successfully executed and who 656 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: actually Um really he started the search but didn't live 657 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: to see it through. His widow wanted to call it 658 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: um Percy in honor of first Belowl, you know. And 659 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: there were some some politics that had to be offended off. 660 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: And then there were some very very silly UM suggestions 661 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: that you mentioned tomboy, yeah, because somebody was like, well 662 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: that sounds like Tombo, and uh, there's they've got a 663 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: great collection of these, uh in at little observatory of 664 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: the letters suggesting different names for Pluto. But the the 665 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: actual name UM, I love This came from a m 666 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: a ten year old English schoolgirl named Venetia Bernie who 667 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: heard about the discovery of Pluto and UM mentioned that 668 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: UM at the dinner table to her parents, who knew 669 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: an astronomer. Um that she had been doing some reading 670 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: and mythology and she suggested Pluto because of its underworld 671 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: associations and it's you know, all the you know, the 672 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: mythological associations and and this was sent by UM by 673 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: by telegram UM and and they loved it at Little Observatory. 674 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: And there's part of the reason is because the first 675 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: two letters P l um is also honors personal Loal. 676 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: And in fact, the symbol for Pluto, you know, all 677 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: the all the planets have kind of a symbol that 678 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: comes out of you know, mythology, mostly um. Like the 679 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: Mars symbol is you know, the male um that the 680 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: circle with the arrow coming out of it, and the 681 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: Venus one is the circle with a cross coming out 682 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: of it, etcetera. And the symbol that was adopted for 683 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: Pluto has a P and an L which stands for Pluto, 684 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: but it also stands for personal Lowal. So that way 685 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: they were able to honor the you know, founder of 686 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: the observatory without doing something so ass is to name 687 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: it after him. Yeah, that's awesome. I love the history 688 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: that you share there about that, because because you go 689 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: through the the history of thinking about Pluto, you know, 690 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: discovering Pluto and then leading up to this exploration. But 691 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: of course at the very start of the book you 692 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: you really really to drive home just how delicate these 693 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: missions are and how high the stakes. Are you open 694 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: with what could have been an extremely tragic moment for 695 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: the spacecraft? Yeah, you know, we wanted to um structure 696 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: it a little bit like a thriller because the people 697 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: and for the people that lived through it, Um, it 698 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: was like a thrower and that you know, there were 699 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: long stretches where not that much was happening, and then 700 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, like the red lights 701 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: are all flashing and it's like, oh my god, does 702 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: that blooming? And out of the many sort of near 703 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 1: death experiences of this mission, UM experience, perhaps the most 704 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: rum attic was the one with which we opened the book, 705 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: because Um, this happened on approach to Puto, when they 706 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: were ten days out. All of a sudden they lost 707 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: contact completely with a spacecraft. And that's something that should 708 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: never happen, of course, And if it happens when you're 709 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: a year out or six months out, then you have 710 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: some time to work the problem and try to get 711 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: back in touch, and hopefully you do. But when it 712 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: happens when you're that close, it's really a panic because 713 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: you don't have much time. Not only do you have 714 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: that initial fear of what if we never hear from 715 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: but again, uh, you know, things do go wrong in spacecraft, 716 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: and there have been spacecraft that have been you know, 717 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: there was one of the Mars spacecraft. Um was made. 718 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: It all the way up basically to the doorstep of Mars, 719 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: and then something went wrong. It probably blew up and 720 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: it was just never heard from again. So those things happen. 721 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: So that's the initial fear. And then once they heard 722 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: from New Horizons, it was a big relief. But what 723 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: they heard from it was basically helped, Um, something's gone wrong. 724 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm in a bad condition. What should I do? Um? 725 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: Which is good that the spacecraft he knows to say that. 726 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: And again, if it's six months out, then you have 727 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: plenty of time to work the problem. But this was 728 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: an emergency because it was literally days away from when 729 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: they were going to start the final sequence of observations 730 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: that that week long period surrounding the closest encounter everything 731 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: is automated, and it was about to begin that automated sequence. 732 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 1: And the spacecraft is barreling down on Pluto a million 733 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: miles a day, getting closer, and it's gonna fly by 734 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: no matter what, whether it's working or not. And you 735 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of time, and to make matters worse, 736 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: at that point, you're so far from Earth with the 737 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: spacecraft that it takes nine hours to send a signal 738 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,399 Speaker 1: to the spacecraft and get an answer back. So just 739 00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: saying hey, are you okay, and then the spacecraft saying yeah, 740 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: well I'm here, but uh, you know, my main computer 741 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: rebooted and I've lost all the commands for the final 742 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: observing sequence, which is what it said, And just that 743 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: bit of communication takes nine hours, and when you've only 744 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,479 Speaker 1: got a few days start executing this sequence, that's really bad. 745 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: And then you know, so of course they have this 746 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: emergency meeting and they figure try to assess the situation. 747 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: By the way, this also happened on the fourth of July, 748 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: so and the team had been given the day off 749 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,919 Speaker 1: to prepare for the intensity of the encounter to come. 750 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: So the phone tree gets activated. People start coming in 751 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: and there, you know, flip flops and bathing suits from 752 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: their barbecues and um and like that in their flip 753 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 1: flops and bathing suits. People stay there for like three days, 754 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: and you know they're sleeping under desks and needing out 755 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: of vending machines. And all that like Apollo thirteen, you know, 756 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: And and they basically figure out they have three of 757 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: these nine hour communication UM turnaround times three of these 758 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: to work with, so they're gonna have to fix the 759 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: thing with three batches of commands. That's all the time 760 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 1: they have. And they just get to work and it's 761 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: there's there's real heroism in this story. And UM, you know, 762 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: we get to UM tell the story of UM some 763 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: of these these characters you know who UM been working 764 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,240 Speaker 1: out of the limelight for UM, you know for decades 765 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: on this and suddenly have their moment of just like 766 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: total heroism, you know, UM, And that's that's great to 767 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: be able to share that with people. UM. And this 768 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: team just kicks into kicks into action and they have 769 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: to rewrite all the software and tested it and figure 770 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: out ways to send it up and what to tell 771 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: the spacecraft and UM, you know, nobody sleeps for like 772 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: multiple days and UM just at the last minute, literally 773 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: with hours to spare, they get everything reloaded on the 774 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: spacecraft and it's UM it ends up executing flawlessly. UM. 775 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: But this was you know, this was the moment of 776 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: crisis that came after everything else and was like sort 777 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 1: of the last crazy hurdle to be crossed before before 778 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: reaching Pluto. Well, it's an amazing story. It uh, it 779 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,839 Speaker 1: makes you wonder what caused the malfunction to begin with, 780 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: to get some trans neptune and malware. Actually they figured 781 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: that out, oh really, yeah, you know, and it was 782 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: a little bit of an oversight, which is in itself 783 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: an amazing part of the story because one thing you 784 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: read about is how carefully they tested everything and simulated 785 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: everything and accounted for every contingency and tested and retested 786 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: and simulated and resimulated. But there was one thing they 787 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: did um slightly wrong, and that was so what happened 788 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: was the main computer got overloaded because at the same 789 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: time as they were loading up the final command sequences, 790 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: they were compressing some other image files that it had 791 00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,320 Speaker 1: previously taken to make more room in the memory, and 792 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: they was overloaded by doing all that. And you might ask, well, 793 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: why didn't they simulate that the compression, uh and the 794 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: loading of the commands at the same time. And the 795 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: answer is they had simulated that, but but the images 796 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: that they had been using to compress in the simulation 797 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 1: were like fake images of planets. They were like empty 798 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, empty circles to say, here's the planet image 799 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: you're going to compress, you know, while you do this, 800 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: And it turned out that compared to the real images 801 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: that it had to compress, they were um it was 802 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,240 Speaker 1: it was more labor intensive for the for the computer 803 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: to compress these real images and the fake images they 804 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: had gotten given. And so that was the oversight that 805 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: caused the computer to get overloaded and crash and cause 806 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: this whole thing to happen. So the problem was literally 807 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: that Pluto was too interesting. Kind yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, 808 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: but it also just illustrates that, you know, no matter 809 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: how careful you are, and these guys, I mean, what's 810 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: amazing is how careful they were because as you only 811 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: get one chance, and unlike earlier missions, there was only 812 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: one New Horizons. I mean, you think of all the 813 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,359 Speaker 1: classic missions of ex planetary exploration, there's Voyager, Viking, all 814 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: these ones, these pioneer first missions to places. They did 815 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: too in case one of them failed, and sometimes one 816 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: of them did fail. But in this case, budget wise 817 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: and for other reasons, there was only one small spacecraft 818 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: and so it had to be perfect. So they tested 819 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: and retested and had backup systems. But even given all that, 820 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: there's just no way you can anticipate everything. And that's 821 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: why you need like an amazing team like they had 822 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: that can kick into action and solve problems when they 823 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: come up. All right, we're gonna jump in here and 824 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back. And 825 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: we're back now. Of course, the journey doesn't end with 826 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,280 Speaker 1: with Pluto. Can you tell us a little bit about 827 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,439 Speaker 1: Aero cough and the further adventures of New Horizons. Um, 828 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: that's right. Pluto was, you know, maybe the highlight, but 829 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: certainly not not the end of the mission. And one 830 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: thing that was kind of innovative actually about New Horizons, 831 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: very innovative, was that all along the plan was not 832 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: just to go to Pluto, but to go to Pluto 833 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,799 Speaker 1: and at least one and maybe more Coper Belt objects. 834 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: And and the mission was sold on that basis as 835 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,439 Speaker 1: a mission to Pluto and the Coper Belt. But one 836 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of crazy aspect of that is that at the 837 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: time of launch of New Horizons, they did not know 838 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: of another Copper Belt object that New Horizons could meet, 839 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 1: that could could could intersect after Puto with the amount 840 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,399 Speaker 1: of fuel and on the trajectory that it was on. 841 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: But they had very good statistical arguments as to why 842 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: there should be such an object and why they should 843 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: would no problem be able to discover it before New 844 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: Horizons got to Pluto and redirect the trajectory because they 845 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: knew that, you know, there were enough objects. They knew 846 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: that they just they if you do the math, that 847 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: shouldn't be hard to find another place where Horizon to 848 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,800 Speaker 1: go to after Pluto, and you're gonna find that object 849 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: during the nine year journey to Pluto. So that logic 850 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: was in the proposal and it was pretty good. But 851 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: then what happened was as New Horizons was approaching Pludo 852 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: over all the years it does the Jupiter fly by, 853 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: it redirects its trajectory. It's heading out towards Pluto, and 854 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: they're searching and searching with all the best ground based 855 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: telescopes on Mona Kea and all these big telescopes UM 856 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: and they're not finding the right object. They're not finding 857 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: an object that New Horizons can get to. And then 858 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 1: it got to the point where it was going to 859 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: be too late and they weren't going to be able 860 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: to UM execute that part of the mission. And the 861 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: sort of the last minute they called in the Hubble 862 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,280 Speaker 1: space telescope and there was some drama there because Hubble, 863 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 1: of course is very scheduled up for other observations and 864 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: they had to kind of go to NASA Brass and say, look, 865 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: this is really important. If you want New Horizons to succeed, 866 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 1: we need to sort of command here a little bit 867 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,479 Speaker 1: of time on the Hubble for the search to find 868 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: an object. And there was some some drama and some 869 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, conflict and then but ultimately they were able 870 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: to do it. And literally, you know, it's another one 871 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: of these sort of just a nick of time. Uh. 872 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,959 Speaker 1: They found an object that New Horizons could visit, which 873 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: was you know MU sixty nine originally and then was 874 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: given a more appropriate name. But um, but so just 875 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: the finding of it was very dramatic and then um, 876 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: but but they did and then um, you know, they 877 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,240 Speaker 1: did they made the right trajectory corrections so that after 878 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,879 Speaker 1: after the Pluto encounter, New Horizons was on its way. Um, 879 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: but had to go another billion miles and traveled all 880 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,320 Speaker 1: the way from July when they were at Pluto to 881 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: New Year's Eve. Um, you know, so another two and 882 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: a half years. Um and um, finally, um, this encounter 883 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: happened and uh and boy was it amazing Again another 884 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,280 Speaker 1: surprising object that you know, you've probably seen the pictures 885 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: what it looked sort like a snowman. But just the 886 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: fact that it's this some kind of a contact binary. 887 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: These two objects sort of squished together, really reveal something 888 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: about the formation of planets and the history of these 889 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 1: objects in the Cooper Belt. And again you know, they're 890 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: just the targeting that went into it's incredible how difficult 891 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: it is. It's even harder than the targeting for Puda 892 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: because this object is small. You're not completely sure where 893 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: it is, You're not completely sure where where the spacecraft is. 894 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,240 Speaker 1: You've got one shot to image it, you're moving very fast, 895 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: and you have to pre program the images in advance. 896 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: And just the fact that you know, when they get 897 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,880 Speaker 1: that frame down there's actually an object in focus in 898 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: the image rather than looking at empty space because you 899 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: targeted a little bit wrong. That's that's like people take 900 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: that it's easy to take that for granted because it 901 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,279 Speaker 1: works so well, but that's you know, that's a real 902 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: incredible achievement. It is amazing. Um. So one thing I 903 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,280 Speaker 1: was wondering if you don't mind kind of a tangent 904 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: while we're out here in the realm of transneptunity and objects. 905 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: I was wondering you have a professional opinion about something 906 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show a while back, the 907 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: the evidence seeming to indicate the existence of a far off, 908 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,759 Speaker 1: larger planet out there that well, I don't know if 909 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 1: you'd use this terminology because of how you feel about 910 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 1: naming Pluto, but what's being called planet nine? Yeah, I 911 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 1: prefer planet X. But UM, my professional and my personal 912 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: opinion is, UM, I hope they find it because it 913 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,120 Speaker 1: would be so cool to learn about another large um 914 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: uh planet in our in our solar system. And UM, 915 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: I think I'm skeptical just because the history of this 916 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of prediction is um you know, sort of littered 917 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,880 Speaker 1: with um you know, with things that weren't found where 918 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,360 Speaker 1: people said, I haven't actually found it, but I've found 919 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: reason to believe it's there because of the statistical aberration 920 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,920 Speaker 1: in um, the in other orbits um uh. There's been 921 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:06,280 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of false alarms along those lines. UM. 922 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: But you know, whether or not we agree on what 923 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,399 Speaker 1: numbers should be assigned to this punitive planet. I'm with 924 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: them completely in the hope that they do find it, 925 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 1: because it would be a wonderful discovery. Yeah, I'm very 926 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: intrigued by the idea. Uh so we uh we We 927 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,360 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that we might give you some room to 928 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,800 Speaker 1: talk about your passion planet, about Venus here at the 929 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: end if you wanted to do do you have anything 930 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,880 Speaker 1: to say about Venus? Like what, what? What do you 931 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,399 Speaker 1: have your eye on there right now? Well, I'm very 932 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 1: much hoping that we do get a mission to Venus 933 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: in the next round of NASA selections, because they were 934 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:50,240 Speaker 1: really overdue, and um, there's too much mystery about about 935 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,760 Speaker 1: that world, considering that it's you know, the closest planet 936 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 1: to us and in some ways the most earth like 937 00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:00,360 Speaker 1: other planet. Um. And in particular, now we more and 938 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: more reason to think that Venus might have gone through 939 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: a long phase when it was a habitable world. We 940 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: used to have this this picture that Venus maybe had 941 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 1: oceans early on but lost them very quickly in the 942 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 1: runaway greenhouse. But the more we do detailed modeling of 943 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,760 Speaker 1: how an early Venus would transition to a planet without 944 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 1: to a very hot and dry planet that we see 945 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 1: today the more we suspect that that took billions of years, 946 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,920 Speaker 1: and so it may be that Venus was an oceanic 947 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 1: planet like Earth for billions of years UM, which is 948 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: very intriguing. This picture of these two um very similar, 949 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,880 Speaker 1: very very nearby worlds, both of which could have been 950 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,200 Speaker 1: habitable for you know, half the or half the history 951 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 1: of the Solar System, um. And so there are a 952 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: lot there are a lot of mysteries that are very 953 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 1: compelling as far as understanding how Earth like worlds evolve, 954 00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,839 Speaker 1: how climate evolves, um and UM. It's it's sitting right 955 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,879 Speaker 1: there waiting for us to explore. I mean, of course, 956 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 1: Venus is a hard place to explore because the surface 957 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 1: conditions now are so intense, and because it's completely shrouded 958 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,720 Speaker 1: in clouds. You can't observe the surface from orbit except 959 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,520 Speaker 1: in the radar. You can't get to the surface very 960 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: easily without a really incredibly engineered machine. So it's not 961 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: you know, it makes sense that we've explored other places first, 962 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: because Venus is not low hanging fruit as far as 963 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: easy places to explore. But it's such a compelling place 964 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,359 Speaker 1: as far as the mysteries there that I do think 965 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: that before long, either NASA or the European Space Agency 966 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,319 Speaker 1: or UM maybe even the Russians. I mean, there are 967 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,839 Speaker 1: not there are a number of agencies considering ambitious new 968 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:47,319 Speaker 1: missions to uh to Venus, and I'm excited and I 969 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,359 Speaker 1: hope I'm I hope I'm still around when we really 970 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: get to UM to answer some of these mysteries. For 971 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 1: some reason, I've often thought or thought for a long 972 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,640 Speaker 1: time one of the most haunting sets of images from 973 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,880 Speaker 1: the whole Solar System is just the those little tiny 974 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: slivers we get of the surface of Venus from the 975 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,879 Speaker 1: Soviet Venera landers. I there's not a lot in them, 976 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 1: but every time I see them, I kind of get 977 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: a shiver. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, there's something 978 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,359 Speaker 1: very kind of dreamlike about them, UM, because they look 979 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,040 Speaker 1: so real and so sort of familiar in some ways. 980 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,920 Speaker 1: I mean, here's a rocky world that's right next door. 981 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 1: And yet because they're you know, maybe enhanced by the 982 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: fact that the geometry of these images are so distorted, 983 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: and we uh, just by the nature of the cameras 984 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,439 Speaker 1: that got them, and we only have a few. It's 985 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 1: just it's like this glimpse of a world that we 986 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: can't really bring into focus. UM, and UM, it really 987 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: makes you want to see more clearly what's you know, 988 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,840 Speaker 1: what's what's over that hill and what's you know, what's 989 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 1: what's really going on here? And so UM, yeah, next 990 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:51,200 Speaker 1: generation of spacecraft that could measure the minerals on the surface, UM, 991 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,000 Speaker 1: measure that the composition of the atmosphere in a way 992 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,880 Speaker 1: that we haven't really done yet, measure what's going on 993 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,080 Speaker 1: in the clouds where there's a lot of mystery and 994 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,920 Speaker 1: even some people think there could be um, some kind 995 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,799 Speaker 1: of life in the clouds, I believe it or not. UM. 996 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:09,839 Speaker 1: But then but then also, like you say, you know, 997 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: what's what's going on with those service images really images 998 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 1: the surface well and just give us more of a visual, 999 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,480 Speaker 1: uh and physical sense of what that place is like. UM. 1000 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: You know, I'm I'm very excited for that possibility. We'll 1001 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,839 Speaker 1: tell us what we can do to help get us 1002 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 1: back to Venus flud NASA with letters honestly, UM, you know, 1003 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 1: it never hurts to talk to your elected representatives, but UM, 1004 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, honestly, I think just you know, when you 1005 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,080 Speaker 1: have an appropriate chance expressing enthusiasm for the space program 1006 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,839 Speaker 1: and Planetariar planetary exploration in general is is a good thing, 1007 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,759 Speaker 1: And um, I don't you know, I feel like it's 1008 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,120 Speaker 1: I feel like there is momentum to do uh new 1009 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,080 Speaker 1: missions to Venus, like it is going to happen and 1010 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: in the next time scale of the next next decade. 1011 00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,400 Speaker 1: So I'm maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I am optimistic 1012 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 1: about it. All right. Well, the book is Chasing New 1013 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,799 Speaker 1: Horizons Inside the Epic First Mission to Pluto by Alan 1014 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 1: Stern and David Grinspoon. It's available now, and I think 1015 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,120 Speaker 1: all formats correct. Yes, that's right, it's even it just 1016 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,400 Speaker 1: got just got published in Russian. If you're listening to 1017 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: this program and you don't speak English, excellent. Alright, So 1018 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,720 Speaker 1: that book is is out In the past, you've written 1019 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,479 Speaker 1: on Venus and you've written on Earth. Uh so where 1020 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: are you headed next? And how can listeners keep up 1021 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,840 Speaker 1: with your work? Well, Um, I have a website, um 1022 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:45,720 Speaker 1: Funky science dot net and um that's I sometimes remember 1023 00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 1: to keep it current. I'm on Twitter as Dr Funky 1024 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:54,480 Speaker 1: Spoon um, and um yeah, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be. 1025 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 1: I've got all kinds of things going. I'm gonna be 1026 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: teaching a class at Georgetown this spring on how to 1027 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 1: Predict the Future, which maybe that'll turn into a book, 1028 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: I hope. So and uh, you know, just catch me 1029 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 1: if you can. All right, Well, well, once again thanks 1030 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,040 Speaker 1: for taking time out of your day to chat with us. Um. 1031 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 1: You know, the book is fabulous and we we strongly 1032 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 1: recommend it to all our listeners. Well, thanks for god, 1033 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:19,880 Speaker 1: it's been great having the opportunity to talk to you guys. 1034 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 1: Thanks David, thank you. All right, So there you have 1035 00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 1: it again. The title of the book is Chasing New 1036 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,400 Speaker 1: Horizons Inside the epic First Mission to Pluto by Alan 1037 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 1: Stern and David Grinspoon. It's out in just about any 1038 00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,840 Speaker 1: format you could possibly want a book. And then again, 1039 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: I just have to drive home just how entertaining this 1040 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 1: book is. You might not think you want a book 1041 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 1: about machines and planets and distant planets, but it is. 1042 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,480 Speaker 1: It is really exciting. In the meantime, if you want 1043 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,520 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 1044 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,240 Speaker 1: head on over Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1045 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: That'll set you on the right path. But you can 1046 00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: find this podcast anywhere you get your podcasts these days. 1047 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,960 Speaker 1: Wherever that happens to be. Make sure that you subscribe 1048 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 1: and make sure that you rate in review, because this 1049 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,520 Speaker 1: really helps us out. Huge thanks, of course to Dr 1050 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,640 Speaker 1: David Grinspoon for joining us, but huge thanks as always 1051 00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 1052 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 1053 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 1054 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,960 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 1055 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,120 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1056 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:33,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production 1057 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radios How stuff Works. For more podcasts For 1058 00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1059 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:50,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.