1
00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,160
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Credit Edge, a weekly markets podcast.

2
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,960
Speaker 1: My name is James Crumbie. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg.

3
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,720
Speaker 1: This week, we're delighted to welcome Mark Attanasio, co founder

4
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,160
Speaker 1: of Crescent Capital, the global alternative investment firm. How are you, Mark?

5
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 2: Very good today, Thanks James, Thank you.

6
00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: So much for joining us. We're really looking forward to

7
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,080
Speaker 1: getting your take on credit markets as well as sports.

8
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,839
Speaker 1: Of course. We're also delighted to welcome back Lisa Lee,

9
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,280
Speaker 1: who covers global credit markets from London.

10
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,199
Speaker 3: How are you, Lisa, I'm doing great, Thanks James, and

11
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 3: thanks for having me.

12
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: Also on today's show, we'll have Steve Flynn, who covers

13
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,199
Speaker 1: telecoms for Bloomberg Intelligence in New York. He has a

14
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: lot to say, so do stay with us. But first,

15
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 1: Mark Attanasio, co founder of Crescent Capital, owner of the

16
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 1: Milwaukee Brewers baseball club, a large, let's say, possibly major

17
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: shareholder in the UK's Norwich City football club. Great to

18
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 1: have you on the Credit Edge. Before we get to

19
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: the sports, which I'm sure a lot of people want

20
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,600
Speaker 1: to hear about, let's talk debt. It's been a good

21
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,440
Speaker 1: year on the whole for credit markets, especially the really

22
00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 1: risky stuff. Does that surprise you though, Mark, I mean

23
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,120
Speaker 1: high rates, slower earnings, It was all supposed to be

24
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 1: a recipe for disaster this year, defaults, bankruptcies. What do

25
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 1: you make of it?

26
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things.

27
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 4: Usually the markets, especially that the credit markets move quicker.

28
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 4: They're in an advanced look to where things are going.

29
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,399
Speaker 4: So hopefully the recoveries you've seen this year are bring

30
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 4: good things in the future. And importantly you haven't had

31
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,280
Speaker 4: the wall of worry, whether it was what's going to

32
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 4: happen with higher rates? Are there going to be defaults?

33
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 4: What about this maturity wall? It's all been pushed off.

34
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,640
Speaker 4: And now as many uh, you know economists would say

35
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 4: there won't be a recession next year is saying there

36
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 4: will be. And so you know what happens in those

37
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 4: types of markets is not only do you have a snapback,

38
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,239
Speaker 4: but the riskiest loans and bonds perform the best.

39
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 1: So the key question for a lot of people right

40
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 1: now is has the Fed finished hiking and if so,

41
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,360
Speaker 1: how fast and deep do you expect them to start easing?

42
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 4: So you know that's we try it at our firm.

43
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 4: It's more of a bottom up strategy looking at companies

44
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 4: and industries, and I think interest rates are aboud as

45
00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 4: hard as anything to call. Maybe WTI is harder to call,

46
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 4: but you know, if there's going to be another hike,

47
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,800
Speaker 4: it's is maybe one that's left. And importantly for credit investors,

48
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,639
Speaker 4: we're still in a band where we're comfortable careshflow cushions

49
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 4: and comfortable loan to value cushions. The other side, I

50
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 4: was talking with the head of our London office, Christine Vanabuckel.

51
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 4: Today we run several billion dollars of private money in

52
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 4: the UK across Europe, and you know, the worry about

53
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 4: higher interest rates would be chrished. At some point interest

54
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,600
Speaker 4: rates work their magic and if you do have a slowdown,

55
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,880
Speaker 4: like you're asking James, then rates will come down. And

56
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 4: so I think we're in a very comfortable range for

57
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,359
Speaker 4: credit looking forward, certainly for the next year. If you

58
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 4: want to look beyond that, well, but next year, even

59
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 4: if things it's higher for longer and there's a slowdown,

60
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 4: I think we're still be okay next year.

61
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about private credit. Though it's a really

62
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 1: hot market right now, everybody's talking about it. You were

63
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: one of the first to call it a golden age.

64
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 1: You've obviously been doing that business for quite a long time.

65
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 1: Now everyone is in. Is it getting a bit overcrowded?

66
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 3: Now?

67
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: Yesterday we had the head of UBS calling it a bubble.

68
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 1: How's the competition affecting pricing and your ability to find

69
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 1: deals to invest in?

70
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't hear the bubble quote. Sure, it's gotten

71
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 4: more crowded. Between fifty and seventy five firms in the

72
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 4: US now that do this. Once upon a time we

73
00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 4: were there were less than ten of us. But there's

74
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,960
Speaker 4: still more dry powder and private equity than there is

75
00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 4: dry powder in private credit. So I think you know,

76
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 4: relative to to bubble that you're going to see accesses

77
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 4: in every market, especially as you know, less practice competitors

78
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,719
Speaker 4: come in who are trying to buy market share.

79
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 2: I don't. We don't see a bubble yet.

80
00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,160
Speaker 4: There's some new, uh new things you can look at

81
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 4: that that I'm not sure there's sign of a bubble,

82
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 4: and maybe sign of of diversification like nav lending, but

83
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:45,039
Speaker 4: we haven't. We haven't seen any bubble like practices. Pay

84
00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,840
Speaker 4: and kinds end up going on a little bit here,

85
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 4: but pain and kind securities can be looked at as

86
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,240
Speaker 4: as a bubble phenomenon. Companies can't pay, so you, uh,

87
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,960
Speaker 4: you extend them credit in it or by by not

88
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,119
Speaker 4: demanding interest. The other side of that is we're giving

89
00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,719
Speaker 4: additional run way to private equity firms at very high

90
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 4: rates of return for US as investors into the low

91
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:11,919
Speaker 4: teens loan middle teens by picking interest. And that's just

92
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,320
Speaker 4: continuing to back good companies at very responsible loan to values.

93
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,279
Speaker 3: As James said, you did well one of the first

94
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 3: to call this the Golden era. With interest rates as

95
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:24,919
Speaker 3: high as they are, and as you said, with the

96
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 3: acrowded more field, do you think it's still the Golden

97
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 3: era or have we entered a different stage?

98
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,000
Speaker 4: So, and by the way, I think I said that

99
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 4: in a Bloomberg interview, so I'm proud of that. The

100
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,040
Speaker 4: question is if you want to relate it to a

101
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 4: baseball game, are we in the We're not in the

102
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 4: early innings anymore. The question are we in the middle

103
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,599
Speaker 4: or late innings? Do you want to relate it to

104
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 4: an English football game? I think we're in the second half.

105
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 4: But again I think the supply demand economics or such,

106
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,159
Speaker 4: the quality of the private equity firms that are investing

107
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 4: in the quality of the companies are buying. This is

108
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 4: a very fertile time to make these investments, especially at

109
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,719
Speaker 4: these rates of return, which most of the things we're

110
00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 4: investing in now are twelve percent or higher.

111
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 3: That is a high return and high yield. Do you

112
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 3: think companies can keep paying those deals? And also private equity,

113
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 3: what do you think about deal flow? Because it is

114
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,600
Speaker 3: harder to do deals when interest rates are that high

115
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,360
Speaker 3: and leverage is less forthcoming.

116
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 2: So i'll take the second question.

117
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 4: First, everybody got addicted to higher multiples in the private

118
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 4: equity world, and so you have a little bit of

119
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,680
Speaker 4: a logjam now because companies, private equity firms get used

120
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 4: to selling things at like fifteen times and now maybe

121
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 4: the higher interest rates, you know, command more of like

122
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 4: a ten to twelve multiple, and you know you're thinking

123
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,320
Speaker 4: you're going to sell at fifteen. You don't want to

124
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 4: sell at twelve. But that's sort of the differential with

125
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,160
Speaker 4: the interest We also have had continued revenue growth. Inflation

126
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,400
Speaker 4: also brings revenues. So from a cash flow cushion standpoint

127
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 4: and a loan to value standpoint, we're at the same

128
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,280
Speaker 4: general cushion and loan to value that we've been for

129
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,640
Speaker 4: several years now. So I think the log jam in

130
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 4: the market, or the lack of of UH transaction activity

131
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 4: isn't isn't just a function of higher rates. It's more

132
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 4: accepting the new the new normal. People need to accept

133
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,000
Speaker 4: the new normal.

134
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 3: And given when you're looking across Europe and the US,

135
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,960
Speaker 3: what sectors do you like given the macro economic view

136
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,040
Speaker 3: and where multiples are.

137
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,400
Speaker 4: So many years ago, back to two thousand and eight,

138
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 4: the great you know, the Great fiscal crisis, we we

139
00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 4: realized asset rich companies UH maybe was you know in golf,

140
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,680
Speaker 4: if you if you you put the pin for the whole.

141
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,280
Speaker 4: We're using a lot of sporting analogies here, and to

142
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 4: get to the hole, you have to go over a lake.

143
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 2: It's a dangerous shot.

144
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 4: And so we would look at at acid value is

145
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 4: something we've got a lot of comfort in. We thought

146
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 4: acid value was hitting it up the fairway. Acid value

147
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 4: was not hitting it up the fairway cash flow coverage was.

148
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 4: So we moved, along with a lot of other credit investors,

149
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 4: to a cash flow based model, and we look at

150
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 4: free cash flow and ability to pay down debt. Almost

151
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,280
Speaker 4: all of our portfolios. Now we're inside like a full

152
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,920
Speaker 4: multiple turn I was talking to again, I mentioned we

153
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 4: have an office here in Europe and London. We were

154
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 4: lending it European direct, lending it just over five times

155
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 4: cash flow, and now we're probably down a multiple point

156
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 4: if you look at our seasoned portfolios. So that gives

157
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 4: you cushion also in a higher interest rate environment because

158
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 4: the multiple that the existing portfolios are at is lower

159
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 4: than the entry point that we came in at. So

160
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 4: and so that means you're not going to have the

161
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 4: default that everybody is forecasting. Listen, and there's plenty of

162
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 4: firms that like us. By the way, every firm you

163
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,719
Speaker 4: all are going to talk to will say that they

164
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,960
Speaker 4: carefully pick their credits. They don't just buy the market.

165
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 4: You're never going to have someone come in here and

166
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 4: say they're from buy some market. But there are firms

167
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 4: we know that buy the market.

168
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 2: We don't.

169
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 4: Several firms don't. There firms that don't buy the market

170
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 4: should have comparatively few to face in the next year.

171
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: But talking about returns again, I mean you're talking about

172
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 1: double digits, which seems high, but then when you look

173
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,319
Speaker 1: at investment grade credit you know that returns, you know,

174
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,800
Speaker 1: five percent, six percent, It returns almost five and a

175
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 1: half percent just this month alone, So there is there

176
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 1: is relative yield elsewhere in the world, and there's no liquidity,

177
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 1: no transparency, and a lot of potential risk in private.

178
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 1: So how and also the competition, I mean, how much

179
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 1: actual compensation are you getting for all those extra risks

180
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:45,640
Speaker 1: in private?

181
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 4: Well, you're getting several hundred basis points over the public markets,

182
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 4: and I would argue you're mitigating that risk. First of all,

183
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 4: through structure, private investments have better structure, and they have

184
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 4: like forever we started. In fact, when I worked at

185
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 4: Drexel in the nineteen eighties, through structure, we had less risk.

186
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 4: You didn't have the liquidity, but you had structure and

187
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 4: ability to diligence the transaction longer public transaction oftentimes you

188
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 4: don't even.

189
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:13,680
Speaker 2: Meet with the management.

190
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,680
Speaker 4: You're looking at a video or we're getting a report.

191
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 4: You have ability to meet management, get detailed reports and

192
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 4: intimate discussions with private equity firms. Every private equity firm

193
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,760
Speaker 4: now has a capital markets desk, so we sort of

194
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,960
Speaker 4: cut out that the intermediary here, we meaning that the

195
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 4: whole market, not only the credit providers, but the private

196
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 4: equity firms, and so you have a lot more direct dialogue.

197
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,480
Speaker 4: And I think therefore often at Crustent, for example, we

198
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 4: get observation rights. So I would think that the lack

199
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 4: of liquidity is much more compensated for by all the

200
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:54,560
Speaker 4: things I just mentioned.

201
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,320
Speaker 2: And given the number of players.

202
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 4: Now, if we wanted to sell assets out of our portfolio,

203
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 4: there's a lot of folks who want to buy, and

204
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,120
Speaker 4: we don't want to let go of our SS, but

205
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 4: if we did, there'd be plenty of firms. The fact

206
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 4: that the market's grown exponentially needs plenty of firms to buy.

207
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 4: There is some liquidity in the quote private market.

208
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 3: Could you explain that further? Mark, Because JP Morgan and

209
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 3: other banks are trying to get up some trading of

210
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,079
Speaker 3: private credit might never become the secondary market the higher

211
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,320
Speaker 3: bond or leverage loans are. But do you see an

212
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 3: actively traded market or is it more bespoked? And what

213
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 3: are some of the perils of having some of liquidity

214
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 3: and what are some of the benefits.

215
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 4: Well, I think there's always a benefit to having liquidity,

216
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,079
Speaker 4: and so you know, one of the things I learned

217
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,079
Speaker 4: from Mike Milkan is any bid is a good bid,

218
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 4: and so you don't have to take the bid, but

219
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 4: it's nice to have one. And I think those firms

220
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 4: want to get involved in part because you'll have a

221
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,559
Speaker 4: greater spread in private transactions that are negotiated then you

222
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 4: would have in public transactions. Once upon a time. Again,

223
00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,679
Speaker 4: back when I worked in the eighties, there was no

224
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 4: tape for in fact, when we started a cresting, there's

225
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 4: no tape for high yield bonds. Now you know everything

226
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 4: is the largest companies is transparent, and so I think

227
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,200
Speaker 4: there's good reason for them to get involved. Also, I

228
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,719
Speaker 4: think if you trade debt, you can then develop a

229
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 4: banking relationship more easily because you have a reason to

230
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,680
Speaker 4: call a company. So I think there's strategic reasons for

231
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 4: JP Morgan and other banks to get into the trading

232
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 4: of private credit, which is.

233
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 2: It is all good for the market.

234
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe not as good as you get more liquidity.

235
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 4: It may it may tighten spreads from what we're able

236
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 4: to lend at. Now that's that's maybe adverse for investors,

237
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 4: but still I probably trade off getting a bid, you know, afraid.

238
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 3: Of the trading bids lowering your marks, introducing volatility.

239
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 4: You know, the accountants have gotten much more every year

240
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 4: when you have your portfolios audited, they're really drilling down

241
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,160
Speaker 4: and what's going on in these companies. You can't it's

242
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 4: not so easy to just hold things that cost anymore.

243
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 4: And the accounts also will look at from an accounting standpoint.

244
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 4: You may have a private loan of unitront your private

245
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,800
Speaker 4: piece in a company. If there's bank loans a trade.

246
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 4: You can't bank loan in a company that trades at

247
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,320
Speaker 4: eighty cents and a mezzanine loan you're going to count

248
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 4: at one hundred cents that that doesn't work anymore. So

249
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 4: that's already there's already been inroads on that. And uh,

250
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 4: you know, we we preach long term holds to our

251
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,320
Speaker 4: clients in any event, and so you're going to whatever

252
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,439
Speaker 4: the volatility is, you're going to have less volatility. And

253
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 4: you also can occasionally, if it's a true one off trade,

254
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 4: you can get the you've got to demonstrate it someone

255
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 4: off trade. So if JP Morgan to pick a name,

256
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,720
Speaker 4: you know, trade something at a steep discount because somebody

257
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 4: had to capitulate on a loan for their own reasons,

258
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,080
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that you have did a sorry, work your

259
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 4: portfolio down.

260
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that worries some people is that,

261
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, just this massive growth, there isn't any regulation,

262
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 1: not a lot of transparency unless you're actually on the deal.

263
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,680
Speaker 1: What gives you the confidence that the guardrails are on,

264
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,680
Speaker 1: that this market isn't going to blow up, that we're

265
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 1: not you know, dot com bubble all over again. I mean,

266
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,079
Speaker 1: it's just any any market that grows this quickly, you know,

267
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: it sets off a few alarm bells.

268
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 2: That's a good question.

269
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 4: Actually, I'd start by saying, you know, years ago, when

270
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 4: i'd go on Bloomberger, some of your friendly competitors that

271
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,440
Speaker 4: they started, people would throw around the term shadow banking shadow,

272
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 4: you know, sounding like shadow we uh, and you know,

273
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 4: I would argue that, you know, the professional like, we've

274
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 4: done this for thirty years, and so maybe some of

275
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 4: our less seasoned competitors have still done it well over

276
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 4: a decade. We're paying a lot more care, and we

277
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,120
Speaker 4: live and die by our track records. You have a

278
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 4: bad vintage fund now with this many competitors, it can

279
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 4: put you out of business. So I say that the

280
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 4: quality of care that we would bring would be greater

281
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 4: than you know, third party regulation, which which by the way,

282
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 4: often ends up being somewhat top down. So how many

283
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,480
Speaker 4: times do you see in banks when there are crises

284
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 4: is because the financial systems can't track the derivatives and

285
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 4: other excesses here you don't have, at least for the

286
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 4: kind of lending we and most of our you know,

287
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 4: competitors have it. There's no derivative. It's just a it's

288
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,960
Speaker 4: a loan. Sometimes there's a turn of leverage or a

289
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 4: half a turn. Sometimes there's nine to twelve percent yields.

290
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 4: You don't really need any leverage to make it work.

291
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 4: But it's it's there's nothing that fancy about it.

292
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 1: It's so when you look around the world and everything

293
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: you cover, which is a big, big, you know, coverage area,

294
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,320
Speaker 1: and looking into twenty twenty four, what's your biggest trade?

295
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 1: What are you most excited about for next year?

296
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 4: Well, we're hoping it just stays just like this. You know, nothing,

297
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 4: nothing is forever. With all the worry, you know, with

298
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 4: these yields at these reference points, spreads UH and continued

299
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 4: modest revenue growth, we're in a very comfortable place and

300
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 4: we hope nothing changes.

301
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 3: You have teams both in Europe and the US. When

302
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 3: you look at the two regions, look at the macroeconomic landscape,

303
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: the political landscape, or the lending landscape. Which area are

304
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 3: you most excited about? Where do you think there's more opportunity?

305
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 3: Would you rather be in Europe? Would you rather be

306
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 3: in the US? And also what kind of companies and

307
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 3: deals they're getting. Some of these private credit loans are

308
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 3: getting enormous. We just had a four point nine billion

309
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 3: one are you are you keen on participating in those

310
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 3: or would you rather stay in sort of the upper

311
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 3: middle market, lower middle market?

312
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 4: So I think of Chris right we're here, who runs

313
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 4: our private credit? He would say, we want we want

314
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 4: to do it all. You know, there can be very

315
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 4: large loans that are inefficiently priced or that provide a

316
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 4: good risk reward for investors, and would want to participate

317
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 4: in those. Generally things that are less picked up over

318
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 4: you have better opportunities. You know, Europe, especially UH for

319
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 4: US investors, doesn't feel as transparent. There's multiple countries, what

320
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,199
Speaker 4: about currency, what laws? Well, you know we can we

321
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 4: can ring fence those risks with trying to stick with

322
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 4: you know, we're looking at a company right now that's

323
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,880
Speaker 4: outside UK jurisdiction, but we're going to use UK law

324
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 4: so which by the way, enforces creditors rights a lot

325
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 4: better than US law does. Uh.

326
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 2: And and so.

327
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 4: You know, when you ask about opportunity there, it's sort

328
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 4: of apples and oranges, or which which flavor you prefer.

329
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 2: Vanilla or chocolate. Uh.

330
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,480
Speaker 4: Europe, we're seeing right now, little lower debt multiples, little

331
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 4: higher fels, little smaller companies, UH. US in our in

332
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,479
Speaker 4: our direct lending practice, that's a comparative and in our

333
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 4: larger lending practice with our credit solution is business. The

334
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 4: risk that everybody's talking about here is opportunity for us

335
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 4: where you can extend loans to companies that want a

336
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 4: longer runway to employ their business strategies. And then we

337
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 4: think we can get into the middle teams, returns and

338
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,439
Speaker 4: more of what we used to do classically in mezzanine lending.

339
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 4: And so you know, the opportunities are somewhat are somewhat different.

340
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 1: So the big opportunity globally when you go look look

341
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 1: at everything you cover, I mean it is private credit,

342
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: is that right? And you'll sector agnostic and there's nothing

343
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: particularly you'll focused on pinpointing right now to exploit it,

344
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 1: to take advantage job.

345
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're sick or agnostic. We don't.

346
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 4: So there's industries that we tend to not favor, like

347
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 4: transportation is difficult, anything with a lot of commodities swings energy.

348
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,439
Speaker 4: I think as a private lender, there's those there's firms

349
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 4: that do just energy investing that have engineers and geologists

350
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 4: and you know, folks on the ground in the premium basin.

351
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,400
Speaker 4: We don't have that, So we're trying to wait where

352
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 4: we have an advantage. One of our advantages is close

353
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 4: relationships for thirty years with private equity firms that we've

354
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 4: lent money to for thirty years. So we try to

355
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 4: work on that. You know, at any given time, there

356
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 4: may be certain industries may have bigger issues with the

357
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 4: couest of labor right now, but that'll get factored. You're

358
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 4: still going to try to get factored into the same

359
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,239
Speaker 4: model of you. What's your loan of value, what's your

360
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 4: cash flow cushion, what's the business niche, who's the transaction sponsor?

361
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 4: What do you think of the manage and team? One

362
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 4: are the growth PROSPECTSRK.

363
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,920
Speaker 3: So you have a storied career in credit, but lately

364
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,880
Speaker 3: you've also become a sports owner Milwaukee Brewers and now

365
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,919
Speaker 3: it's a landmark week for you in the UK with

366
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,400
Speaker 3: the Norwich City Canaries. Can you tell us a little

367
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 3: bit of what just happened? I want you to share

368
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,199
Speaker 3: it here from your own words.

369
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 2: Sure night.

370
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,679
Speaker 4: Nineteen years ago, as a longtime baseball fan, I bought

371
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 4: the Milwaukee Brewers.

372
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,200
Speaker 2: My wife Debbie said, are you going to it was

373
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 2: all our money.

374
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 4: At that time forty percent of our revenues came from

375
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,239
Speaker 4: central source in baseball, so I didn't think so. And

376
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 4: over those nineteen seasons, we felt we developed a demonstrated

377
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 4: management expertise, both in financial pieces of sport and you

378
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 4: know what goes on in the field. One of the

379
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 4: things Chains we talked about before you got on is

380
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 4: you know why sports so tough. It's tough because you

381
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 4: can't control what happens on the field. You can't control injuries,

382
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,680
Speaker 4: and that that's what drives your product. So we thought

383
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 4: we could export that expertise. We've looked for back to

384
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight at English football clubs and about

385
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 4: a year and a half ago, now a banker for

386
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 4: Norwich City, approached us said that they were there was

387
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 4: a selling shareholder. Delia Smith is a beloved and as

388
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 4: I was saying earlier, beloved figure in the UK, and

389
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 4: is as lovely and wonderful in person as her public persona,

390
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 4: and they were looking for someone who could do more

391
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 4: than just have a check to write. And given our

392
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 4: expertise in baseball, they thought it might help, especially as

393
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 4: there's an advent of analytics in British football, in all football.

394
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 4: So that got us in and then got us addicted

395
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 4: to say, I don't know much about the sport.

396
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 2: I still don't.

397
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 4: Last year I'd only been an investor for six weeks

398
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 4: at the AGM. So this year and with our shareholders

399
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 4: going from like fifteen point nine to forty percent, there'll

400
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 4: probably be a few more questions, will be equivalent economic

401
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 4: owners with Delia and her husband.

402
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 2: But you know it's still Delia's team.

403
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 4: It's been her team for twenty eight years. They've got,

404
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 4: you know, four board seats. I have a board seat.

405
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 4: I'm still learning.

406
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: But to your wife's point, Marla, how do you avoid

407
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: losing all your money? And how do you actually make

408
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 1: money as an investor in English football?

409
00:21:59,600 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: Making mone?

410
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 4: How any in English football is different than other leagues,

411
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: the chief difference of which is that the league isn't

412
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 4: really a league because you have promotion and relegation and

413
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 4: even like within the Premier League you have the top

414
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 4: teams are at a different level. They know they're always

415
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 4: going to be there. They also have different challenges that

416
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 4: the amount of money you have to spend to you know,

417
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 4: and you're not only competing within the ninety two teams

418
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 4: in the UK, you're competing with teams around the world

419
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 4: for talent. So that's a special challenge. Once you get

420
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 4: down a league from that, you actually in order to

421
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 4: make money you have to have a successful player trading operation.

422
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I do want to go into more detailed

423
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: about that, but before we talk to Steve fan over

424
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: a bloemillion times, I have one more question really about baseball.

425
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: I know nothing about baseball, have to admit, but something

426
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: I'm I'm more of a cricket fund. But there have

427
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: been rule changes, right and that has affected the duration

428
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: of the game. How does that affect the business in

429
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 1: terns of attendance and tons of concessions and you know,

430
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 1: ratings et CETERA.

431
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 4: Good, very good question. It's and I'm one of the

432
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 4: six owners on the labor committee. So as part of

433
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 4: getting those rule changes or the fact of them negotiated,

434
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 4: and actually the owner of the Mariners, John Stanton, led

435
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 4: the committee that came up with those rule changes. Good

436
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 4: news is attendance was up markedly this year, I think

437
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 4: ten percent something like that, which you know, when you've

438
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: got tens of millions of fans, that's noticeable. I think

439
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 4: that has to do with the fact that the game

440
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 4: was shorter, maybe maybe surprising, maybe not surprising. We all

441
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 4: thought beer sales were going to come down.

442
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 2: It did not just sold. You know.

443
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 4: We had some question, by the way, and whether you

444
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 4: should should stop selling beer in the seventh inning or

445
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 4: sell it for the same you know, two and a

446
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 4: half hours you always did. We decided to cut it

447
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: off in the seventh inning just so you just people

448
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: could drink responsibly or but they drank as much as

449
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 4: they used to so it didn't hurt It helped attendance,

450
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 4: didn't hurt concessions, and I think was great for the

451
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 4: sport because there was a lot of standing around what

452
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 4: we all found the beauty of it. Over a long time,

453
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: baseball fans, the next generation of fans found slow and boring.

454
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: So it's not just that.

455
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 4: We the game is shorter, but there's a lot a

456
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 4: lot more action. There's not as much standing around, and

457
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 4: that's I think been good.

458
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: And are there more changes to make, more things to

459
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: do on that front.

460
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, the chief one that we're looking at is having

461
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 4: a a computer generated strike zone. It sort of takes

462
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 4: the umpires out of the game. Now I like the umpires,

463
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 4: its kind of and there's a human element. But now

464
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 4: with instant replay, if you if you watch Wimbledon, you

465
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 4: know it's actually good television where you could see where

466
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 4: the tennis ball hits the line or just misses. And

467
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 4: so whether a pitch is a strike or not is

468
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 4: now getting a lot of focus, and there's ways that

469
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 4: we're going to address that. So the empire still is involved,

470
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 4: so that that's probably the chief way. We're going to

471
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 4: shorten some of the time between pitches even more. Now,

472
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 4: so you know, will you shaved three seconds off of pitch,

473
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 4: you shaved five minutes off a game?

474
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: Great stuff. Mark Attanasio, co founder of Crescent Capital, owner

475
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: of the Milwaukee Brewers baseball club and Norwich City great

476
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: to have you on the Credit Edge.

477
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: Thanks James, I appreciate And Lisa it's always good to

478
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 4: chat with you.

479
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it's lovely to chat with you.

480
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 4: Mac.

481
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: Please do come back again on the show and speak

482
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: for soon and go Norwich.

483
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: All right, go Canaries.

484
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: Also big thanks to Lisa Leeve with Bloomberg News in London.

485
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: Brilliant to see you again, Thanks so much, thank you. So,

486
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, were joined again by Steve Flynn

487
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Intelligence. How's it going, Steve, I'm good.

488
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 4: How are you? James?

489
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: Very good?

490
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: Thank you.

491
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: So let's look at the high yield market. It's had

492
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: a pretty good year as rebounded over the past month.

493
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: It's been risk on total returns eight and a half

494
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: percent so far. I think there's a lot better than

495
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: most people were expecting. You know, we talked earlier in

496
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: the show about how we're expecting this years to be difficult,

497
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: distressed and you know, bankruptcies and all this, But in

498
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: fact the riskiest companies have done really well. And yet Communications,

499
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: which is such a big part of the junk bond market,

500
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: I mean, it really hasn't done that well. I mean

501
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: it's really lagging quite a bit in terms of spreads,

502
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: in terms of returns. Why is that? What's going on?

503
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: What's what's the different what's the problem in communications right now?

504
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 5: Sure, say, there's a couple of things. Number One, we've

505
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 5: seen increased competition, particularly for broadband customers. So you've had

506
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 5: companies spend a lot of capital investment into their networks

507
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 5: to provide faster and broader internet speed and so forth.

508
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 5: You've had you know, the cable and telecom folks deploying

509
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 5: fiber deeper into their networks. You've had the wireless companies

510
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 5: deploying fixed wireless access networks, and you've had you know,

511
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 5: an upcoming we should see even service offerings from SLLY

512
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: companies such as is Space Ex's Starlink and Amazon's cooper Projects.

513
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 5: And so what you've had is, you know, increased competition

514
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 5: for broadband customers and then increasing capital investment, which you know,

515
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 5: so you need capital, right, so you take on more debt.

516
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: A lot of these companies are free cash flow negative,

517
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 5: and so that's been one of the big negative impacts

518
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 5: for the sector sector. Secondly, we've seen a changing environment

519
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 5: for pay TV services, right, so you've seen subscribers move

520
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 5: from traditional cable TV or linear PayTV services to internet

521
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: based TV and streaming services, which has led to a

522
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 5: decline in cable and satellite TV customers, which has been

523
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 5: negative for the sector.

524
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: And I'd say the.

525
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 5: Third thing is, listen, this sector has a lot of debt.

526
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 5: People have historically been very comfortable lending to the communications sector,

527
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 5: right because you have a lot of assets. You've got

528
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 5: cable networks, you have telecom networks, you have wireless networks,

529
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 5: you have spectrum, you have satellites, you have things that

530
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 5: people are comfortable lending to. So it's always had a

531
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 5: lot of debt. But now the issue is that when

532
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 5: it comes to refinancing this debt, right, we're in a

533
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 5: much higher rate environment, so it's going to be much

534
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 5: more expensive to finance it. There's a lot of floating

535
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 5: rate debt, right, So we've seen the underlying so for

536
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 5: benchmark go up and so the cost your floating rate

537
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 5: is debt is going up. So there's a lot of

538
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 5: concerns as we head into twenty twenty four.

539
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: On the competition point you started with that, Steve, I

540
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: mean I'm a bit confused because I would have seen

541
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: a lot of these when you talk about telecoms, for example,

542
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: a lot of just monopolies because they have the grid,

543
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: they have everything set up. It's impossible for me to

544
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: just set up my own telecom company and compete with that.

545
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: Is technology changing all of that.

546
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 5: Yes, you're seeing a lot more competition. So for many years,

547
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 5: the cable companies basically crushed it and Internet, they had

548
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 5: most of your subscriber editions. But over the couple of

549
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 5: the past few years, you've seen a lot of the

550
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 5: telecom companies turn around and reinvest in their networks, pushed

551
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 5: five or deeper into their networks and therefore offering greater

552
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 5: broadband coverage and higher broadband speed. So that's made them

553
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 5: more head with the cable offerings. And then also the

554
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 5: wireless players have started with fixed wireless access where they're

555
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 5: using some of their spectrum to provide kind of fixed

556
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 5: broadband service via wireless.

557
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: So basically they would.

558
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 5: Send you a a device, you could just plug it in,

559
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: easy to set up, and boom, you have broadband into

560
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 5: your apartment, your house, what have you. So there's a

561
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 5: lot more competition for broadband subscribers.

562
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: So that means that the existing provide is what are

563
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: they going to do about it. Are they going to

564
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: are they going to CONSULTI date? Are they going to

565
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: go bust? What's the what's the outcome?

566
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of companies that have taken on

567
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 5: some some big debt loads and some of their capital

568
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 5: structures are stressed if you look at like a Lumen

569
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 5: for example, or your traditional telecom company, so they're facing

570
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 5: a fair amount of pressure. All t s USA is

571
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 5: another company that's was building out five or deeper and

572
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 5: has a fair amount of leverage. And I think some

573
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 5: are positioned, you know, to do okay next year, and

574
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 5: others I think.

575
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: We'll run into some more challenges.

576
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 5: So as far as I mentioned All Tease, I think

577
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 5: think that is one that may have the potential to

578
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 5: recover next year. The company's leverage is high, it's about

579
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 5: seven times, which is high, but the near term liquidity

580
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 5: looks okay. The company has cash on hand, has availability

581
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 5: out of its revolving credit line, and so that appears okay.

582
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 5: They have a new management team in place. A lot

583
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 5: of the management team has come over from Comcast, including

584
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 5: the CEO, Dennis Matthew, and they're starting to show progress.

585
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 5: They're starting to show some operational improvements now that they

586
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 5: have a long way to go to really fix the company.

587
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 5: But I think that's one that's you know, it's just stressed,

588
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 5: but I think that's a name that could recover next year.

589
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: Are there any that won't recover?

590
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 5: I think one of the more interesting names next year

591
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 5: is likely to be Dish. The company has a lot

592
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 5: of obligations do through the end of twenty twenty four,

593
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 5: and as it looks right now, they appear not to

594
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 5: have enough liquidity to get there. So, you know, Dish

595
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 5: has their pay TV operations, satellite based TV service, which

596
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: a lot you see a lot of commercials for I

597
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 5: think people know about that that there subscribers are declining,

598
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: but they still produce a lot of free cash flow.

599
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 5: The issue is the other part of Dish has been

600
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 5: investing in the wireless business. They've spent a lot of

601
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 5: money on Spectrum and they're now building out a nationwide

602
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 5: five G wireless network. But they have invested huge sums,

603
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 5: but there's a lot more investment to go. So when

604
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 5: you look at you know, Dish going forward, they have

605
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 5: big outlays over the next you know, through the end

606
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 5: of twenty four they have some large bomb maturities coming

607
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 5: to They are buying out minority interests in some of

608
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 5: their spectrum entities. They have other spectrum payments, and the

609
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 5: company's free cash flow negative because they are spending so

610
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 5: much money building out this you know, five G wireless network.

611
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 5: So you know, that's one. I think that's interesting. There's

612
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 5: one other thing going on with that credit company. Before

613
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 5: the end of this year. They're going to merge with EchoStar.

614
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 5: So Charlie Ergen controls Dish and it controls EchoStar. He's

615
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 5: merging together. EchoStar has a couple of billion dollars of

616
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 5: cash in the balance sheet, so that will help the

617
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 5: liquidity of the company, but it's still does not appear

618
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 5: to be enough to deal with all the obligations that

619
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 5: they have for twenty twenty four. So they're going to

620
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 5: have to find some other financing.

621
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: So rates, let's say they say hi next year, they're

622
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: big maturities coming up. You think Dish, which is actually

623
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: quite a big holding for a lot of high yield

624
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: fund managers. Do you think they hit a wall they

625
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: have to restruct.

626
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 5: You well, I think they have to figure something out right,

627
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 5: So yes, Dish is the second largest name in the

628
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 5: communications sector in the Bloomberg US Corporate High Bond Index.

629
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 5: So it is a big name out there. There's you know,

630
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 5: capital structures a little complicated, right. You have a couple

631
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 5: addition different issuing entities. You've got secured and unsecured. You've

632
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 5: got some inner company obligations. You have EchoStar now coming

633
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 5: into the mix. So there's there. It's a big complex

634
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 5: capital structure. Please look at our research on the terminal,

635
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 5: you know, we break it all down for you. But yeah,

636
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 5: that is definitely a name to watch in twenty twenty four.

637
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: You know a lot of people we were talking about

638
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: this earlier on the show, are very excited about private

639
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: debt as an option for issue. Is is that something

640
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: that that these sorts of you know, troubled telecoms borrows

641
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: could consider, I mean, is it going to be something

642
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: that they could tap into potentially.

643
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, we haven't seen too much private debt and telecoms

644
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 5: recently besides LBOs and it's you know, these are big companies,

645
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 5: so they're difficult to lbo. What interesting trend we have

646
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 5: seen which we're expecting others to maybe mimic is tapping

647
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 5: the asset backed securities market or the abs market. So interestingly,

648
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: a large company called Frontier Communications. This was a few

649
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 5: months ago. They took their Dallas metro fiber network along

650
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 5: with the Dallas customer contracts, and they put them into

651
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 5: a subsidiary and they issued over a billion dollars of

652
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 5: asset back notes on that entity. They were able to

653
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 5: put very hard, high leverage on it and realize a

654
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 5: weighted average cost of capital that was like in your

655
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 5: high eight percent range. So that was, you know, given

656
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 5: where the high yeld market is, to say, given where

657
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 5: the levered loan market is today. You know, for a

658
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 5: highly levered company, that was an attractive avenue financing, and

659
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 5: we expect others to mimic that. Now a lot of

660
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 5: them have talked about it, but we haven't seen any

661
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 5: other deals yet. But that's definitely something to keep an

662
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 5: eye on as a way to get extra financing for

663
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 5: some of these companies.

664
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: So let's look ahead to twenty twenty four. Everyone's kind

665
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: of looking now at maybe a self landing, maybe rates

666
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: to even start to come down at some point. There's

667
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: going to be some opportunities right for your industries that

668
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: there's going to be some performers out there. What are

669
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: you most excited about for next year.

670
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think some of the higher quality and

671
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 5: names in communications are well positioned. Some of them have

672
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 5: relatively you know, modest leverage ratios have Okay, financials, if

673
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 5: you think of like a company like Charter Charter, it's

674
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 5: got a big debt load. Half about seventy percent of

675
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 5: death load. Debtload is secure and investment grade about thirty percent.

676
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: Of it is high yield.

677
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 5: It yields, you know, offers some pretty good deal. But

678
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 5: it's a relatively stable credit. I mean, we've talked about

679
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 5: all the things that are challenging with regard to cable companies.

680
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 5: The companies still produce a lot of cash flow. They've

681
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 5: had the same leverage target ratios for the past few

682
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 5: years and they've been very steady. So I think that's,

683
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 5: you know, in a sector has a lot of volatility,

684
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 5: I think that's one that could be a little bit

685
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 5: more stable.

686
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 3: Want to watch.

687
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: Okay, Steve Fenn from Intelligence, thank you so much for

688
00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: joining us.

689
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: Thank you.

690
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 1: We look forward to having you back on the show

691
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: very soon. And as he said, do check out Steve's

692
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: great analysis on the Bloomberg terminal. It's all there. The

693
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: I cred and thanks again to Mark at Tanacio, co

694
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: founder of Crescent Capsule, and Lisa Lee from Bloomberg News.

695
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: Read all of Lisa's great scoops on the Terminal and

696
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com, and also please do subscribe wherever

697
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We're on Apple, Google and Spotify.

698
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 3: Give us a.

699
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: Review, tell your friends, or email me directly at j

700
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: Cromb eight Bloomberg dot net. It's j from B c

701
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: R m B. I e as in my name at

702
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg next week. I'm James Crombie. It's been a

703
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: pleasure having you join us again next week on the

704
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: Credit Edge