Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Today we have part two of our run of interviews
Speaker 2: with The National and celebration of their new album First
Speaker 2: two pages of Frankenstein. Last week, Broken Record producer Leah
Speaker 2: Rose talked to guitarist and composer Aaron Destner about The
Speaker 2: National's interpersonal dynamics. Today, Leah picks up that conversation with
Speaker 2: the band's lead singer, Matt Buringer. Matt, whose fear and
Speaker 2: anxieties are often on full display in this songwriting, talks
Speaker 2: about overcoming a debilitating bout of depression in the period
Speaker 2: before he started writing songs for the new album. He
Speaker 2: also explains how the combination of weed and iced tea
Speaker 2: helped him spark his creativity and why he hopes his
Speaker 2: songwriting impresses Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. Is Broken Record
Speaker 2: liner notes for the Digital Age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Ritchman.
Speaker 2: Here's Lea Rose with Matt Runninger.
Speaker 3: I saw a video that you recorded. I guess it
Speaker 3: was like two years ago for Amiba Records, and you
Speaker 3: were picking through your favorite records and I started to
Speaker 3: sort of like listen to some of the to the
Speaker 3: records that you were showing, and it really helped me
Speaker 3: understand you as an artist and as a singer, and
Speaker 3: so I wanted to hear you just talk about some
Speaker 3: of these artists and see how specifically maybe their style
Speaker 3: helped you develop your own style.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Cool, I don't remember what I picked.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I figure then maybe the list has changed
Speaker 3: at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but maybe I'll be I'll disown this whole list,
Speaker 1: but let's see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, right, But the first artist I wanted
Speaker 3: to ask you about was Tom Waits.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: When did you start listening to Tom Waits?
Speaker 1: I think I freshman year at college, so that was
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. I went to a couple of years at
Speaker 1: Miami University of Cincinnati, so I was like, it was
Speaker 1: my first year of college, so this is the first
Speaker 1: time I lived alone. And that's when I remember hearing
Speaker 1: Ah God. I think it was it was a compilation
Speaker 1: I heard him on first, and I think it was
Speaker 1: the song Big Black Mariah, and I don't remember what
Speaker 1: compilation it was on, and I fell in love of
Speaker 1: that song, and I went out and tried and wanted
Speaker 1: to buy check out some records, but I remember all
Speaker 1: I could find was this one record, his early Year's
Speaker 1: record and like a guy called Tom Waits and said
Speaker 1: early years, and then there's this skinny white guy on
Speaker 1: the cover. I was like, this isn't This isn't the
Speaker 1: person from who's singing Big Black Mariah on the thing.
Speaker 1: I had heard this has got to be somebody else,
Speaker 1: but I bought it anyway, and it was so I
Speaker 1: think I first got into his early years and then
Speaker 1: connected all the dots to like Bone Machine, and that
Speaker 1: was right right before Bone Machine came out. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's when I can't remember exactly what all, but
Speaker 1: it was the fun journey like learning hearing like you know,
Speaker 1: semi you know, contemporary or or whatever nineties Tom Waits
Speaker 1: and then going back and then then starting with his
Speaker 1: really early like those real acoustic demos and piano demos
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that was
Speaker 1: a big long time all through college, it feels like.
Speaker 1: And then and then I would come back to him
Speaker 1: and in different records I would I would go into
Speaker 1: deep Dives and at different times and rain Dogs.
Speaker 3: Yeah that was the one that you picked out for
Speaker 3: the semi bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I also also remember another Okay,
Speaker 1: this is how stupid I was with music. And I
Speaker 1: didn't didn't really do very deep at dives. I thought
Speaker 1: that was him on the cover forever, right and and
Speaker 1: and I mean and I'd seen pictures of him and see,
Speaker 1: but for some reason, my brain made them the same,
Speaker 1: the same face, the same person. But yeah, I haven't tattoo.
Speaker 1: That says Martha from his song Martha and which I
Speaker 1: remember listening to and crying too after breaking up with
Speaker 1: my first college girlfriend or being broke up broken up
Speaker 1: with it was mutual. I don't remember.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 1: I was driving back to Cincinnati from Oxford, Ohio and
Speaker 1: realizing that was finally over, and then I transferred to
Speaker 1: a new school anyway. Yeah, so Tom Waits was like
Speaker 1: right there and some of the most intense you know,
Speaker 1: early early relationships, but then always like, you know, my
Speaker 1: Karna and I like just went through big deep Tom
Speaker 1: Waits dives you know, over different times. And yeah, just
Speaker 1: just this combination of goofiness and heartbreak and darkness, you know,
Speaker 1: and and spookiness. There's just something all about you know.
Speaker 1: And he Nick Cave's another one who's who's like in
Speaker 1: that sort of world, like the just the the the
Speaker 1: alchemy of sincerity and silliness you know, that's so magical.
Speaker 3: Sometimes do you hear them in your own performance when
Speaker 3: when you sing like.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure, I mean I don't. I'm sure other
Speaker 1: people do more than I do. You know, you know
Speaker 1: I can't. I don't know what I look like in
Speaker 1: the mirror, you know everybody else. That's one of those things.
Speaker 1: But uh, but the other thing about what Tom Waits
Speaker 1: is I was also really always really taken with and
Speaker 1: kind of inspired by his relationship with his wife Kathleen
Speaker 1: Brennan and how they write together and there you know,
Speaker 1: one of one of my favorite songs of his all
Speaker 1: time is called Johnsburg, Illinois, and it's just a little
Speaker 1: portrait of a song about where she's from, you know,
Speaker 1: and just about about meeting her. And it's like the
Speaker 1: most delicate, little, sweet, little love song. And yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think that was something I always found so romantic
Speaker 1: and so cool that here's this guy who can write
Speaker 1: all these songs about heartbreak and all this stuff, but
Speaker 1: then also write them with his the one he loves,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's really cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful. If you don't know a band, you
Speaker 3: don't know a singer, you don't know a song. How
Speaker 3: much patience do you have to sort of discover something new.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think I have some, like like some patients,
Speaker 1: But that's a good question, because I do struggle a lot.
Speaker 1: I think with like even even like the playlist set
Speaker 1: that I'm on, I mean, I just like I have
Speaker 1: a harder time. I mean, I don't know. I've was
Speaker 1: always a bit of a snob. And that's the thing
Speaker 1: about music. It's like sports, so it's like, like you
Speaker 1: hate most stuff, you know, you want to talk about
Speaker 1: how much it's like with your friends, like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: and you define yourself by everything you hate, you know,
Speaker 1: or you don't get. And I was definitely that contrary,
Speaker 1: and you know I was. I mean, the Smith's were
Speaker 1: a band I love so much, just because none of
Speaker 1: my other friends had ever heard of them, and the
Speaker 1: boy with the thorn on his side was was definitely me,
Speaker 1: you know. And so still I have a little bit
Speaker 1: of that where I'm like, like, what, I don't get it,
Speaker 1: you know, But I realize I'm totally wrong most of
Speaker 1: the time, and then and I'll get used to it
Speaker 1: and I'll learn things about it. So it's hard to
Speaker 1: say I might have been more of a snob when
Speaker 1: I was, you know, in college than I am now.
Speaker 1: And and now I I actually really have a fun
Speaker 1: time studying like stuff I don't listen to at all.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, like I did a recent sort of
Speaker 1: thing of just like what's you know, all these different
Speaker 1: artists their number one song and trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what the tempo of their number one song was. You know,
Speaker 1: In the first three artists I looked at, it was
Speaker 1: like one eighteen, right, So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard like one twenty is kind of like
Speaker 3: is that for a pop record? That might be kind
Speaker 3: of like the.
Speaker 1: I know, Well, I'm like I'm like I'm looking it
Speaker 1: up and then and I'm like trying to like, well,
Speaker 1: what is it? What are people like, you know, what
Speaker 1: is this the pop world? Like? What are these because
Speaker 1: every wee talked about the formula, but then I did.
Speaker 1: I did, But then it was it was a few
Speaker 1: exercise because then I listened to a batch of other
Speaker 1: and suddenly I found a bunch that were, you know,
Speaker 1: like around one fifty, and then I've found a bunch
Speaker 1: that are like like great songs that are around ninety,
Speaker 1: you know. And then but then it's also like it's
Speaker 1: all it's all just in the groove and how you
Speaker 1: subdivide it, and it's like something that's like ninety is
Speaker 1: also one eighty, you know, and depending on how you
Speaker 1: deliver it. And then so I kind of it didn't
Speaker 1: lead me anywhere, but it was really it was kind
Speaker 1: of fun to dig into it. There's also I read
Speaker 1: about all this stuff and how it's slowing down pop music.
Speaker 1: Is the average BPM used to be like in the
Speaker 1: one forties and now it's down to somebody's saying it's
Speaker 1: like down to like one one o eight is an average.
Speaker 3: Oh it's funny. I mean I could definitely see that
Speaker 3: with hip hop because hip hop has like gotten way
Speaker 3: like more like slow in syrupy, but but one one
Speaker 3: forty is super fast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But the truth is it doesn't actually it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter at all because you could take any BPM and
Speaker 1: subdivide it in a way and put a swing to it,
Speaker 1: and how you like, all of a sudden, its momentum
Speaker 1: goes from sluggish to like it just it's like mixing paint.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like it's like which is fun to
Speaker 1: you know, It's it's like there's not a formula. There's
Speaker 1: not like a there's not a formula for a good painting.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just so.
Speaker 3: And also it seems like if you started with thinking
Speaker 3: about a formula, you're not going to end up in
Speaker 3: a good place. No, But it's because you're thinking more
Speaker 3: about like what the audience is going to like, rather
Speaker 3: than what you're going to put forth.
Speaker 1: Right, I'd love to do Like lately, just going in
Speaker 1: with a friend and and and and just been like, well,
Speaker 1: just like pick any song and just kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, we picked by your Side by Shah Day
Speaker 1: not long ago, and like and just like what is it?
Speaker 1: What a good song? Like why like why is it
Speaker 1: so much better than all other songs at that same
Speaker 1: tempo with the same chorus it gets.
Speaker 3: It's her voice delivers, Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's impossible to totally obviously it's her, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, but why is that song of
Speaker 1: her stand out so much from even her catalog? You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, there's so many people that have one
Speaker 1: song that just like is ten times bigger than the
Speaker 1: rest of their entire catalog, or you know, what is it?
Speaker 1: What is it about that one that thing. It is fun.
Speaker 1: It's just fun to like kind of try to see
Speaker 1: if you can decipher magic. You know, if you can,
Speaker 1: if you can figure it out. But you can't. You
Speaker 1: just you can't. I mean, but but it is everything
Speaker 1: you've you're listening to every song we that is like
Speaker 1: was them trying something, probably listening to a bunch of
Speaker 1: other things and trying to put put together common to
Speaker 1: the air combination, and occasionally the alchemy turns. It's it's
Speaker 1: black magic. It totally as you still know, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about it from the perspective of
Speaker 3: a listener, like if I sit down and listen to
Speaker 3: your new album, you sort of take for granted that,
Speaker 3: like somebody actually created this from silence. Sometimes you just
Speaker 3: assume like things always existed, like uh huh, there was
Speaker 3: a time when hey, Jude didn't exist, Like somebody wrote
Speaker 3: that and made that music.
Speaker 1: My daughter and I were like driving around, we just
Speaker 1: drive around for hours just listening to songs, and she's
Speaker 1: she's in that she's in that phase where she's just
Speaker 1: like really like songs are magic to her. Now. I say,
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's blooming. And she's she's fourteen, and
Speaker 1: and so we were listening to the Wise Blood album
Speaker 1: a lot. We were listening to and she's learning that
Speaker 1: on guitar. But then we were like started listening to
Speaker 1: some Beatles and stuff and just like and hey, Jude,
Speaker 1: it's just like, oh my god, it starts out one
Speaker 1: way and then at the end he's just like he's
Speaker 1: just a nut job at the end, just like riffing
Speaker 1: and just like, dude, Yeah, it's almost ridiculous at the end.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but the idea that like it started from
Speaker 1: nothing and then it's there, you know, and.
Speaker 3: Like there was a time when that song did not exist.
Speaker 1: It's fun, it's funny, it's crazy totally.
Speaker 3: So I'm just curious with the national like with making
Speaker 3: this new album, Like it sounds like before or you
Speaker 3: started recording it, you know, maybe you were going through
Speaker 3: some sort of like writer's block. That's that's the story
Speaker 3: that I'm hearing. Yeah, and that was somehow unlocked by
Speaker 3: you reading Frankenstein. Is that a true story?
Speaker 1: It is true. I was in a really long writer's block,
Speaker 1: like I'd never been. It was it was a I
Speaker 1: couldn't write. I mean, I don't know to I mean,
Speaker 1: it was it was caused by whatever, like self loathing
Speaker 1: and depression and all that stuff I put up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I went into a phase where I just couldn't. I
Speaker 1: just like I didn't want to write. I was sick
Speaker 1: of writing about myself all that stuff. And I won't
Speaker 1: say there was any one thing that unlocked it. It
Speaker 1: was mostly just kind of reconnecting with the band and
Speaker 1: and just kind of pushing through it in time and
Speaker 1: then and it started slowly coming back. But when it
Speaker 1: when it started coming back, one song that I was
Speaker 1: just like, the music came. It was new music that
Speaker 1: had just been sent and I was kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: Like I I just wanted to fresh, fresh words in
Speaker 1: my head. So sometimes I'll just go and grab literally
Speaker 1: anything a magazine and anything and just like look at word,
Speaker 1: just skim it and just like until a word or something,
Speaker 1: just like whatever. It's just it's trying to just like
Speaker 1: shake them, shake the trees and see if an animal
Speaker 1: falls out right. And so, yeah, Franken Sang was the
Speaker 1: book I just randomly picked. And the words like tranquilize
Speaker 1: an ocean and this whole stuff about like the poles.
Speaker 1: It all starts out in the Arctic and so I
Speaker 1: started kind of just writing some imagery about that, but
Speaker 1: it was all I think it was imagery that I
Speaker 1: was I was kind of using that imagery to write
Speaker 1: about my brain and write about my feeling lost and
Speaker 1: frozen and disconnected. And so the song is your mind
Speaker 1: is not your friend. But that phrase was just something
Speaker 1: that my wife Grin had been had been saying, he
Speaker 1: had been echoing to me over the past year when
Speaker 1: I was in this phase, and I just like thought,
Speaker 1: like you know, I was, I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I can ever do it. I don't like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can write anymore. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I can go on stage anymore. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I can tour anymore. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I can do any of it anymore. I was just
Speaker 1: I was feeling paralyzed by not just the writer's block,
Speaker 1: but all of it, you know, just like everything was
Speaker 1: like I didn't there was a phase I didn't want
Speaker 1: to write. I didn't want to I didn't want to
Speaker 1: listen to anything, you know, I couldn't listen to anything.
Speaker 1: But when I started to break through a little bit
Speaker 1: and those guys started sending me a bunch of news
Speaker 1: like like, oh, he's working again. The rest of the
Speaker 1: band started like hurry up, like like send him new stuff.
Speaker 1: He's he's plugged in again. And and and the music
Speaker 1: for your mind is that your Friend was one of
Speaker 1: those kind of new ones that came and and I
Speaker 1: wrote it really fast. Yeah, and it was triggered. But
Speaker 1: I can't remember which song of the of the record
Speaker 1: I know. I know Once upon a pool Side was
Speaker 1: one of them that that was like, okay, finally a
Speaker 1: song came. And I think it was when I just
Speaker 1: started writing directly about the things I was, you know,
Speaker 1: my fears and everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm curious what your wife says when you're in
Speaker 3: that place when she's trying to encourage you and you
Speaker 3: tell her like I can't go back on stage, I
Speaker 3: can't write. This might be the end of it.
Speaker 1: She was always like, that's totally fine. That is totally fine,
Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, thank god, you know,
Speaker 1: And I was like, it's not totally fine. You don't
Speaker 1: understand how not fine that is. It won't be good
Speaker 1: for me, it won't be good for anybody. It's bad.
Speaker 1: It's that And she's like nobody wants and the band
Speaker 1: was like that too. Everybody's like there's I was. I
Speaker 1: wasn't getting any pressure from anybody except for myself, So.
Speaker 3: You didn't feel like let off the hook, like, okay,
Speaker 3: cool now I can just like.
Speaker 1: No, I was let off the hook. I've always been
Speaker 1: let off the like like nobody none of us will
Speaker 1: ever Nobody in the band or I think none of
Speaker 1: our partners or whatever, nobody's got anybody on a hook.
Speaker 1: We all we all do this because we want to
Speaker 1: do it. And yeah, when I when I couldn't do
Speaker 1: it, it wasn't that I didn't want I wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to do it. I wanted to want to do it.
Speaker 1: I really wanted to want to do it, but I
Speaker 1: I couldn't and I couldn't. The idea of like getting
Speaker 1: on stage made me you know almost you know, sick,
Speaker 1: you know, like like just just so much anxiety that, yeah,
Speaker 1: walk in even go to the airport, you know, into
Speaker 1: the face. I just like it wasn't like flying. I
Speaker 1: was just like did like I did not want to go.
Speaker 1: I did not want to go out into the world
Speaker 1: or be you know, I wanted to stay unplugged or
Speaker 1: but I couldn't. You know so so. And then I
Speaker 1: was terrified that ship it's been it's been unplugged for
Speaker 1: so long, and I and it's the machine has stopped
Speaker 1: for so long. I don't know if it's ever going
Speaker 1: to start again. And then it slowly started.
Speaker 3: How did you feel when it started? Were you exhilarated?
Speaker 3: Did it feel like those feelings were kind of melting away?
Speaker 1: It was slow. It was a slow It wasn't. There
Speaker 1: were there were a couple of times. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think once upon a pool side the guy in the
Speaker 1: band were like nice one, you know, like like you're
Speaker 1: like like that when you know, like nobody wanted nobody
Speaker 1: wanted to make too much of a deal about it.
Speaker 1: When I started to write again, and and and and
Speaker 1: it did, it didn't. It wasn't like als in one day,
Speaker 1: I woke up and I was like, you know, on fire.
Speaker 1: It was. It was, yeah, it was very much, you know,
Speaker 1: starting the fire back from rubbing sticks together. But eventually
Speaker 1: eventually it warmed up, and you know, yeah, and then
Speaker 1: and then and then then I was writing a lot,
Speaker 1: and then we were on tour. I was Eucalyptus was
Speaker 1: written really fast, and new Order T shirt was written
Speaker 1: really fast, and the outcott was written really fast, and
Speaker 1: half the songs were written quickly, and then the other
Speaker 1: half you know, started and then froze and then you know,
Speaker 1: morphed into something later. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, so you didn't go back into the sunken place
Speaker 3: at a certain point where you out like once the
Speaker 3: song started to come.
Speaker 1: No, but I got but but I but I got
Speaker 1: above it enough to sort of like to be able
Speaker 1: to breathe. So that like so that when I sink
Speaker 1: back down, know that I you know, so, so I'm
Speaker 1: not in the lowest part of it, you know, but
Speaker 1: I'm but I'm definitely not. I'm definitely aware that it's
Speaker 1: it's it's right there, you know, the water is the
Speaker 1: water is always right about here, and sometimes you'll find
Speaker 1: yourself and you're like it and I just know, I
Speaker 1: know where I am. So I'm just more aware of
Speaker 1: the of the when it gets too deep to stand,
Speaker 1: you know, and just to back away a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know, whatever that is. It's just your brain, it's
Speaker 1: just your totally you know.
Speaker 3: Does having the songs and having actual tangible creative output,
Speaker 3: does that sort of put any gas in your tank?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, yeah, I mean the the thing that like
Speaker 1: when I when I feel like, oh there's I'm onto something.
Speaker 1: This could be this could be great, this could be
Speaker 1: a beautiful song. And you always like that that that
Speaker 1: first theo's first feelings where you just get get a
Speaker 1: even just a melody. Or I mean, there's those guys
Speaker 1: send me lots and lots of stuff. So I'm listening
Speaker 1: to a lot of music. They're like, if I could
Speaker 1: only do something, this could be incredible. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times I like, I just can't. And or I
Speaker 1: every time I do something, it's what's beautiful about it
Speaker 1: goes away. I can ruin it, you know. It's like
Speaker 1: it's it's easy to ruin a beautiful white canvas, you know.
Speaker 1: Or and their canvases aren't clean. They come already with
Speaker 1: so much information, and but sometimes I just cannot dance
Speaker 1: with one of their sketches or one of the bits
Speaker 1: of music. And and this was like I could hear
Speaker 1: when there was when I couldn't write. I was like
Speaker 1: I could hear that the music that I was trying
Speaker 1: to write to was was good. It wasn't. It wasn't
Speaker 1: that it was me I was I was I was
Speaker 1: not able to sort of find my way into it,
Speaker 1: and that was what was the worst part about it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, when a couple of little bits and some
Speaker 1: songs in a little phrase or melody like started like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's good enough, that's a good that's a good
Speaker 1: lily pad. That's one little that's one little lego that
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna put over here because I think
Speaker 1: I'm gonna use that little lego. You know. The rest
Speaker 1: is just a mess, and I don't want to even
Speaker 1: look at that pile. But at least that one little lego,
Speaker 1: you know. I and then you find another lego, you know,
Speaker 1: and then and so yeah, the little tiny bits, little
Speaker 1: like it's a little little little lyric or a little
Speaker 1: melody or in a little spot in a song somewhere,
Speaker 1: we'll be like, ah, if I can build a song
Speaker 1: out from around that one little little spark, then it
Speaker 1: might end up being the best song I've ever written.
Speaker 1: That's the thing about songs. They're like these three little
Speaker 1: three and a half minute things that you could start
Speaker 1: and you have the sense of like this might be
Speaker 1: one like this could be a beautiful song, this could
Speaker 1: be imagined, this could be you know, sabotage. This could
Speaker 1: be you know, hey, yah whatever, you know, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like when you start on something like
Speaker 1: it could be one of the greatest songs I've ever written,
Speaker 1: and it could be, Hey, Jude, and almost never is,
Speaker 1: you know, but it could be. And that feeling is
Speaker 1: when like when a kid first learns like the G
Speaker 1: chord for the first time and they're like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: I can be Nirvana. You know I did once you
Speaker 1: get that first thread. So that's first for me, Like
Speaker 1: the songs like just a little like a little bit
Speaker 1: where like, ah, that might end up being incredible if
Speaker 1: I can, if I can.
Speaker 3: So the hope, yeah, just the hope part of it.
Speaker 1: The belief that like this could be a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: that makes you, makes you and lots of people feel great,
Speaker 1: and it could be on the radio and you know
Speaker 1: it could be. It's like just stuff that those simple
Speaker 1: things you're like, those are such a enough serotonin or
Speaker 1: and doorphins get get sent off into your bloodstream that
Speaker 1: I just one of the little little things a day
Speaker 1: can keep your head above water and then keep you going.
Speaker 1: But that's why, you know, that's why like when months
Speaker 1: and weeks would go by it, and I didn't have
Speaker 1: one of those little things. I was getting none of them,
Speaker 1: you know nothing.
Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be
Speaker 2: back with more from Leo Rose and Matt Burninger. We're
Speaker 2: back with Matt Burninger and Leo Rose.
Speaker 3: Do you have any like wellness practices or anything that
Speaker 3: you you do that is supposed to be good for you,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's like exercise or meditation or walks or.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to ride on my bike and walk,
Speaker 1: biking and walking just you know those things. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: just just I mean, I think it's it's very well
Speaker 1: known that just just moving your body is like just
Speaker 1: getting your your body moving, because when your body is moving,
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not trying to like, you know,
Speaker 1: lose weight or get cardio, just move your body simply
Speaker 1: that those gears are at least doing that thing, you know, right.
Speaker 1: And so when those gears are doing that thing, your
Speaker 1: legs and your legs are moving and you're walking and
Speaker 1: you're breathing it out, the part of your brain that
Speaker 1: gets anxiety and gets chess can sometimes just like just
Speaker 1: slow down and let that thing and then and then
Speaker 1: suddenly the rest of the gears start. It just it
Speaker 1: greases the wheels, you know, It's like totally And when
Speaker 1: you don't do those things, I think the worry part, anxiety,
Speaker 1: all the other things that all the other wheels in
Speaker 1: your brain that you need are important for survival, all
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, but they just start spinning and
Speaker 1: nothing everything else freezes and then you just like you're exhausted,
Speaker 1: but you can't sleep because your anxiety wheels are going.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do do other things, but I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: like when you're in a when I was in that
Speaker 1: dark face, I didn't want to. I mean, I go,
Speaker 1: I'd ride my two blocks and I turn around and
Speaker 1: come home. I was like, yeah, I couldn't ride my bike,
Speaker 1: I couldn't watch TV, couldn't listen to any music. So
Speaker 1: it was a sunken sunken place for sure, sunking place.
Speaker 3: Has listening to music with your daughter influenced your writing
Speaker 3: at all or the way that you're approaching music, because
Speaker 3: it's almost like you get to hear music for the
Speaker 3: first time. You know through her ears.
Speaker 1: Only that if you try to cater to anybody, you're
Speaker 1: gonna fail. Like her bullshit detector for like just sounds
Speaker 1: like they're just sounds like they're trying so hard to
Speaker 1: make make me think they're cool, or like like lines
Speaker 1: that are like seem like you know, seem like great
Speaker 1: all caps, you know, great lyrics. She's she's like, ah,
Speaker 1: it's a little too much. You know. It's like, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: you know, like kids are way more sophisticated than you think.
Speaker 1: And and you can't like, well, I mean it's hard
Speaker 1: to say. It's like I mean, I mean I don't
Speaker 1: want to like there's guilty pleasures, but still her favorite
Speaker 1: favorite stuff is more complex or just like the stuff
Speaker 1: that's like blurry and weird, and and it's like why
Speaker 1: kids love certain scary children's books that are just like
Speaker 1: you can't quite figure them out, Like why why do
Speaker 1: those resonate so much? It's always the stuff that's a
Speaker 1: little creepy, a little spooky, not setting it up, you know,
Speaker 1: with an obvious, you know, satisfying thing, like like something
Speaker 1: is a little off and a little a little hard
Speaker 1: to figure out, like what does that mean? That's the
Speaker 1: stuff that sticks with her. So yeah, it's really that's
Speaker 1: so it's really inspiring. I was like, oh yeah, I can't.
Speaker 1: You can never never phone it in and try to
Speaker 1: like market to you know, to a demographic or anything.
Speaker 1: You just have to. You really have to be honest
Speaker 1: with yourself. Are you are you interesting? Are being interesting
Speaker 1: to yourself? Because even twelve year olds can tell when
Speaker 1: you're when you're pandering.
Speaker 3: Do you play her music you're working on?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Does she? What does she tend to tell you?
Speaker 1: She's always excited. She's always I mean, she's I mean,
Speaker 1: she does really like it. And but it's like I'll
Speaker 1: play it just because because occasionally she'll like like not
Speaker 1: like something, and and she's she's definitely not being nice,
Speaker 1: you know, because she sees, well Krin and I talk
Speaker 1: about it all the time, so she sees how not
Speaker 1: precious I am I and she sees how both of us,
Speaker 1: you know, tear about TV shows and tear apart movies
Speaker 1: and like, you know, like we're cruel with this stuff
Speaker 1: just because that's what you do.
Speaker 3: It's it's sounds like my house.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's it's like because when something's great,
Speaker 1: like it has to be celebrated, and like in the
Speaker 1: mystery of why something is great, you just have to
Speaker 1: you have to dig into it.
Speaker 3: It really is easier to talk shit about something describe
Speaker 3: how incredible something is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean mostly when I'm writing, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to avoid being terrible. I mean, like you try to
Speaker 1: write something and like like it's terrible. It's like you
Speaker 1: try to sing a melody, It's like it's terrible. Certainly,
Speaker 1: wait that's wait, maybe something there and then you find
Speaker 1: And so it's always for me, it's always I step
Speaker 1: into the ugly, you know, I just step out and
Speaker 1: it's always ugly, or it's always it's very rarely a
Speaker 1: lyric or even a melody ever ever quite. It takes
Speaker 1: a lot of stepping in this way, that way, this
Speaker 1: way a little bit and adjustment and listening over and
Speaker 1: over and throwing it away. Like when I I write,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll put in a sketch from those guys
Speaker 1: and it's usually pretty simple. Sometimes it's not even it's
Speaker 1: just one part, you know, it's like you know, three,
Speaker 1: three or four chords like repeated, and I will I'll
Speaker 1: just start trying to sing to it, and I'll just
Speaker 1: track after track, layer after layer. I just like I
Speaker 1: have fifteen fifteen things that I'm just like just free
Speaker 1: associating and singing gobbledygook over and then I'll go back
Speaker 1: and listen and it's like most of it's all terrible,
Speaker 1: and it's just like, oh, that one little spot is.
Speaker 3: Like kind of like the melody is terrible, or the
Speaker 3: words are terrible, the lyrics are terrible.
Speaker 1: It's usually melody, you know. I'm always like looking for melody,
Speaker 1: not worrying about words. And then later I will try
Speaker 1: to put words to it, and I kind of write separately.
Speaker 1: I'll write little bits and pieces and then I'll see
Speaker 1: it fits in a song, and then I'll listen to
Speaker 1: to like what it sounds like I'm saying, and like
Speaker 1: go in that mode and just try to like write
Speaker 1: around what it kind of sounds like I'm saying and
Speaker 1: craft that it's it. It's like I kend go about
Speaker 1: it like all different ways. But almost never am I like, oh,
Speaker 1: like like step right in and like oh that's feeling good,
Speaker 1: and like a song comes out. It's usually like it's
Speaker 1: just always trying to avoid stuff that sounds cliche or
Speaker 1: you're trying too hard, or your sound too bored, or
Speaker 1: you you sound too energetic? Are you like it's just
Speaker 1: a million a million little dials, you know.
Speaker 3: But that seems good though, because at least it's the
Speaker 3: opposite of being paralyzed, Like that's very active. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: just trying and trying and trying, and kind of like reiterating,
Speaker 3: do you have any sort of rituals or any things
Speaker 3: that you put yourself through to get into a space
Speaker 3: where it's easier to write. We had Rivers Cuomo on
Speaker 3: the show, and he talked about how he tried sort
Speaker 3: of like a deprivation technique where he would lock himself
Speaker 3: in a bathroom for like two days and like not eat,
Speaker 3: just to try and like bring about creativity that way.
Speaker 3: And that's obviously extreme.
Speaker 1: Mh.
Speaker 3: But is there anything that you do, like even if
Speaker 3: it's like drink a little something, smoke something and then
Speaker 3: you're in this space?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean I don't have I don't try
Speaker 1: to force it. I mean, when I was in that
Speaker 1: long phase where nothing has happened, I realized that, like,
Speaker 1: oh God, if you can't just sit around, it's it's weird.
Speaker 1: It's like I couldn't, I couldn't turn it on. And
Speaker 1: I kept trying, and I guess, I guess if I
Speaker 1: hadn't keep trying to turn it on. It may have
Speaker 1: never come on, and so you do have to sort
Speaker 1: of I did have to force it. I guess. Eventually
Speaker 1: I had to go to the studio those guys. I
Speaker 1: had to go in the booth and the microphone was
Speaker 1: on hand to try put something on down on record,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's it wasn't until then until the
Speaker 1: really started happening. So I did. Like just just getting
Speaker 1: in there and doing it is really the only thing
Speaker 1: sometimes when it's not happening at all that you can do.
Speaker 1: I don't know, just get in front of a microphone.
Speaker 1: But again, I will say, I kind of just have
Speaker 1: to get into a comfortable place with it, and I
Speaker 1: will most of the time I'm writing, like on a
Speaker 1: couch or in bed, headphones on and like just listen
Speaker 1: to stuff and just trying to zone out. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll smoke some weed sometimes I'll you know, I don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll drink a little bit of wine sometimes like that.
Speaker 1: But I kind of I like it in the mode
Speaker 1: where you know, iced tea and weed works really great,
Speaker 1: you know, and kind of in the middle of the day,
Speaker 1: in the middle of the day and those weird moments
Speaker 1: those kind of.
Speaker 3: Like like light up or downer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a light I try to like just get
Speaker 1: I don't write well when I'm like loaded. I mean
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes have.
Speaker 3: You ever recorded or written or recorded something when you're
Speaker 3: just like loaded, and you probably think it sounds really
Speaker 3: really good or maybe it's really deep, Like what is
Speaker 3: that experience?
Speaker 1: Like I like that. That's a good question. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to write. It's hard to I mean, yeah, I used
Speaker 1: I used to. My favorite thing in the world to
Speaker 1: do was get a six pack and a pack of
Speaker 1: cigarettes and listen to records. And I have a notebook
Speaker 1: and just like just filling notebooks and just writing and
Speaker 1: writing right and listening and just and and and it
Speaker 1: was just like it was great. This is what can
Speaker 1: I say? It just it was it was so much fun.
Speaker 1: But I but I don't do it like that anymore,
Speaker 1: just because it's like I feel like shit if I drink,
Speaker 1: drink or smoke that much stuff, you know, and so
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's a it's a healthier thing. And and
Speaker 1: I do it's it's good to ride to ride bike
Speaker 1: and I'll smoke some weed and ride my bike and
Speaker 1: and and and if I get in a mode, I'll
Speaker 1: be I'll be pulling over every two minutes to like write,
Speaker 1: just to text myself a little thing, a little lyric
Speaker 1: or a little line. So that's that's kind of how
Speaker 1: it works. Like I like to get into kind of meditative,
Speaker 1: rhythmic zone. I won't sit there and try to like
Speaker 1: craft architect a song. I'll like, I'll get a little
Speaker 1: bit I like and then I'll sing it over and
Speaker 1: over and over again, and you know, on a loop
Speaker 1: and just just kind of just just practicing the rhythm
Speaker 1: of a of a of a you know, practicing a swing.
Speaker 1: You just kind of keep doing it until you get
Speaker 1: the kind of rhythm right and the tone of it right.
Speaker 1: And I'll do that and that's probably because I'm you're
Speaker 1: stoned and you're just kinda in that mode just like
Speaker 1: you can you can marvel at the same lego like
Speaker 1: for a while totally, but it's good. But you manage
Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, get that stone just right.
Speaker 1: So when you when you're gonna put it into the
Speaker 1: end of the you know, another brick in the wall, whatever,
Speaker 1: it's like you gotta get that break just right. And
Speaker 1: other times it's then you're like, okay, now I've filled this.
Speaker 1: This sketch is only three minutes long, but I've got
Speaker 1: seventeen different melody options.
Speaker 3: Right, It's like, there's wow, are they all original melodies?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: How do you know they don't come from I would
Speaker 3: hope they don't, But it seems like it was just
Speaker 3: sort of a natural thing to happen.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you just think it's a weird thing.
Speaker 1: There'd be like you can start almost anywhere. It's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I used to think like, okay, here's a guitar,
Speaker 1: here's some guitar chords and a beat in a rhythm.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, well, there's only so many things I
Speaker 1: can do. I learned a longer. You guys like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: you can. You may feel like you're cornered in with something.
Speaker 1: It's like you can start anywhere on it. You can,
Speaker 1: like you it's it's almost infinite. How many I mean
Speaker 1: you can you can start on a note that rubs
Speaker 1: against whatever notes are there and and play with that
Speaker 1: that way. It's like you can you can put any
Speaker 1: kind of color onto any kind of canvas and try.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's just it's just not a it's
Speaker 1: just doesn't feel right, you know, it just doesn't feel
Speaker 1: the personality of it, like I always though about the
Speaker 1: personality of songs. It's just like the personality doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like me, you know, or I didn't feel like I
Speaker 1: wasn't in that zone. I can't, I can't quite get
Speaker 1: even though it's I like that personality, but it's just like,
Speaker 1: that's not what I need now, that's not the that's
Speaker 1: not the character I need to to talk to right now,
Speaker 1: you know. It's that's that's that's what the songs are like.
Speaker 1: They're like they're like a partner that that you have
Speaker 1: to sort of like dance with, and and some you know,
Speaker 1: some people you like are in rhythm with, and some
Speaker 1: like you know, some sketches that Aaron Aaron sent me
Speaker 1: ended up, you know, on other people's records in our
Speaker 1: huge hits.
Speaker 3: You know. It's like, oh, like, what's an example of that.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. There's there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: I think Cardigan and Willow and some other ones. I
Speaker 1: had been taken a whack at some ideas or at
Speaker 1: one point those were in a batch that I was like,
Speaker 1: I couldn't I couldn't do anything too and I still
Speaker 1: it's like I've listened to those I studied those songs.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, look what she did with.
Speaker 3: Those songs, right, I was gonna say, yeah, like that
Speaker 3: must be interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I've I've got things like like that are
Speaker 1: just really different melody and and and and written like
Speaker 1: places that like totally different songs. And it's like that's
Speaker 1: one of those things that's really really uh, really kind
Speaker 1: of fun about about songs and what we were talking
Speaker 1: about before. Like for example, when we when I go
Speaker 1: in and say like, okay, here, here's you know, by
Speaker 1: your side by Shahda, I mean you could learn it.
Speaker 1: First you learn it and then you get Okay, that's
Speaker 1: that song. But like to kind of like try do
Speaker 1: a song that's kind of in the zone, it's like
Speaker 1: really really hard to match a zone of a thing,
Speaker 1: you know. It's it's kind of I mean, you can
Speaker 1: kind of match it, but it's.
Speaker 3: Like, do you mean if you were to try and
Speaker 3: cover it or make something in a similar vein you can.
Speaker 1: Cover, but like even covering songs does not mean that
Speaker 1: song is gonna have any of that magic that that
Speaker 1: Ridge that one did. It's weird. So I'm saying it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm never nervous about somebody thing. Oh you stole that
Speaker 1: from like like maybe yeah, maybe, Like like that, every
Speaker 1: little every single I mean everything that you hear is
Speaker 1: has taken and re recrafted. And it's not even like
Speaker 1: they try hard. It's like it's kind of impossible to
Speaker 1: like you change one little thing, everything starts to change,
Speaker 1: you know. So I always listening to the Miley Cyrus
Speaker 1: Flowers and she even talks about what was that. It
Speaker 1: was like it's her biggest song, I think flowers now,
Speaker 1: and it's like she was sort of ripping off the
Speaker 1: Bruno Mars song or something up to be No be
Speaker 1: Your Man, I want to be Your Man or something
Speaker 1: like that. His his biggest song. He's like a billion
Speaker 1: and a half, you know, listens and like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's that little section right there. I mean the
Speaker 1: lyrics are I mean, flowers rhyming, flowers with hours and
Speaker 1: and hand with sand are all there. You know. She
Speaker 1: could definitely just like took all that and reaf you know,
Speaker 1: and she talks about it. That's the best way to
Speaker 1: approach it, because like it's the other ones, they're both giant,
Speaker 1: massive songs. And you're like, oh yeah, there's that little
Speaker 1: part where like, oh yeah, you can hear that note
Speaker 1: on that thing, there's there's that little fragment that definitely
Speaker 1: was taken from that. But I don't like, I don't
Speaker 1: like that's that's how everything's made, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: like I I think that's uh, And so I think
Speaker 1: I do that probably more than I realize. But it's
Speaker 1: usually I often sing other people's lyrics to music just
Speaker 1: because it's impossible. Often songs tempo and time signature or
Speaker 1: chords or whatever one lyrics will you just it forces
Speaker 1: you to change everything around, you know, just uh, and
Speaker 1: you change melody and everything changes, and then and then
Speaker 1: you find your own you know, and then those those
Speaker 1: words that you started with somebody else just just just
Speaker 1: just disappear, and your own things just sort of grow
Speaker 1: in the cracks of that you made around it. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's the process is usually incredibly fun, really,
Speaker 1: and that's why I like in that phase where I
Speaker 1: just like I was heartbroken over the loss of my
Speaker 1: love for it. That was such a bummer, like to
Speaker 1: like to not for even music, not not to give
Speaker 1: me that thrill or that serotonin or that endorphin or
Speaker 1: that little stuff.
Speaker 2: We'll be back after another quick break with more from
Speaker 2: Leo Rose and Matt Berninger. We're back with the rest
Speaker 2: of Lea Rose's conversation with The Nationals. Matt Berninger, Is.
Speaker 3: It true that there's sort of like an unwritten rule
Speaker 3: in the band that people don't directly ask you about
Speaker 3: the meaning behind your lyrics?
Speaker 1: I didn't know. They don't. They almost never do. I
Speaker 1: don't think they ever do.
Speaker 3: Does anyone ask you if you're.
Speaker 1: Like fans do and and journalists do, and there's no rule,
Speaker 1: but no, the guys usually don't. Yeah, they don't. I
Speaker 1: don't think I don't. I'd have to think about when
Speaker 1: any of those guys ever asked me.
Speaker 3: Do you care what they think about your lyrics?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, totally, of course. Yeah. I'm always trying to
Speaker 1: impress them. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Is there some when you're writing? Is there somebody in
Speaker 3: your mind who you're trying to impress or you're writing for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, those guys in Krin, you know, and and yeah,
Speaker 1: and my daughter and and and the appears you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to I want to impress all the walkman.
Speaker 1: I want to impress Phoebe Bridges. I want to you know,
Speaker 1: I went Taylor Swift to to to be as impressed
Speaker 1: by me as I am by her, you know. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I want to be loved. I want to
Speaker 1: be I want to be adored and I want to
Speaker 1: be But that's the that's the what's such a funny thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you try to write with that purpose,
Speaker 1: you're gonna sound desperate, you know, so to be truly
Speaker 1: adored and to be for other, your other your favorite artists,
Speaker 1: to get to actually really like what you're doing, you
Speaker 1: have to do weird ship that is a little maybe
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and scary and maybe isn't isn't gonna work, you know.
Speaker 1: That's that's what's gonna impress the walkman, that's what's gonna
Speaker 1: impress you know, my wife, and and and and and
Speaker 1: and then that's what the band wants, Like the band
Speaker 1: doesn't want our band doesn't want necessarily want a hit
Speaker 1: if it's not real, if it doesn't feel like kind
Speaker 1: of real to us.
Speaker 3: I was wondering with Karin, like when she hears things
Speaker 3: that you've written, if you're writing about an old love
Speaker 3: or loving someone missing somebody, is she ever, like, who
Speaker 3: are you talking about?
Speaker 1: No, she's When we first started dating, I was in
Speaker 1: the middle of writing all these songs, you know, a
Speaker 1: bunch of songs. You know that that she's kind of
Speaker 1: like right away was kind of like so into all
Speaker 1: of it, like the writing of songs. So it's always
Speaker 1: been that way. And and I've also been mostly writing
Speaker 1: about her, you know. It's like or the band or yeah.
Speaker 1: But then there's the like sometimes songs are not autobiographical, obviously,
Speaker 1: but they're but there's sort of exercises and looking into
Speaker 1: a window or looking or looking over over the edge
Speaker 1: of something, and like Eucalyptus or whatever is obviously a
Speaker 1: song about about splitting up things. And and and I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of a funny song about like, you know,
Speaker 1: like all the things like how do you how do
Speaker 1: you split up your water subscription? You know, But so
Speaker 1: you're writing writing about breaking up is a way of
Speaker 1: sort of like of confronting your fears. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like and like once upon a pool Side, and like
Speaker 1: a lot of those record is is really like the
Speaker 1: fear of maybe that the band being over. And it's
Speaker 1: very romantic. Generally, there'll be bits and pieces of the
Speaker 1: songs that like in this usually well much later, like
Speaker 1: after the record's out and after finally it's all finished,
Speaker 1: where like yeah, wasn't that again? And you know what,
Speaker 1: you know, like it'll be way later, but in the
Speaker 1: middle of the creative process, if it's good, if it's like,
Speaker 1: that's great, like that's all we that's all we ever
Speaker 1: talked about. Sometimes sometimes much later, once the art is finished,
Speaker 1: we'll be like, maybe we should talk about that a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was wondering, Yah, is there ever an instance
Speaker 3: where you write a lyric and it's the beginning of
Speaker 3: something that might almost be subconscious, but then it ultimately
Speaker 3: comes true later.
Speaker 1: I mean, what you made me think of is maybe
Speaker 1: not what you're asking, but I I do, I do,
Speaker 1: And I did feel that maybe all of this writing,
Speaker 1: of all these making these big you know, these beautiful
Speaker 1: things out of uncomfortable feelings that I've been doing for
Speaker 1: twenty years and you know, we're on the ninth record
Speaker 1: or whatever, and plus all the other like so, I mean,
Speaker 1: so like writing hundreds of songs about some of this stuff,
Speaker 1: I was like, am I manifesting this character? Am I becoming?
Speaker 1: Am I am I did I create this, this, this
Speaker 1: sad sack, you know, because I write about it so much?
Speaker 3: Do you think you did? Like where did you land
Speaker 3: with that question?
Speaker 1: It's in between, It's like yes, But I also write
Speaker 1: all these songs because like like I am that way
Speaker 1: and have that way and and and that's how I
Speaker 1: That's how I that's how I survive. That's how I
Speaker 1: feel better about life is because I make a little
Speaker 1: something some kind of semi enjoyable and kind of fun
Speaker 1: and beautiful and moving out of this ugly feeling. You know.
Speaker 1: That's what all great love songs. You know, It's like
Speaker 1: it's like it's like sad, ugly, uncomfortable feelings. What's a melody?
Speaker 1: You know? And and and and that's that All the
Speaker 1: best love songs are kind of crushing and and so
Speaker 1: I think I do think I'm a much healthier person.
Speaker 1: Haven't written all this stuff than have not? You know?
Speaker 1: I do know that like other people like listening to
Speaker 1: like we talked about, like the artists that we've been
Speaker 1: talking about, including example, go back to Tom Waits, I
Speaker 1: know that Tom Waits made me mentally healthier. You know,
Speaker 1: it made me made me a happier person made me
Speaker 1: a made me like myself more, and so did Nick Cave.
Speaker 1: So all my favorite artists, you know, make me like
Speaker 1: myself a little bit more because they're great about about
Speaker 1: writing about what they hate about themselves, and I can
Speaker 1: identify with that. And I was like, if that person
Speaker 1: hates themselves, like you can say that that terrible thing
Speaker 1: about themselves and make it so beautiful. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I can make something out of all the
Speaker 1: things I hate about myself. So yeah, But then at
Speaker 1: a certain time, you know the point of like all
Speaker 1: these years, especially getting on stage and performing it and
Speaker 1: doing it, you know, and then and then and then
Speaker 1: and then having like a fan base, which is like incredible,
Speaker 1: Like I have fans, but fans of songs I wrote,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's it's sometimes you they forget
Speaker 1: how like most people don't have fans of songs that
Speaker 1: they wrote. You know, it's like an incredible thing. Strangers
Speaker 1: that you've never met, like these songs that you wrote,
Speaker 1: these things you wrote about your own feelings. You know,
Speaker 1: like that's so lucky, you know. And then when people
Speaker 1: like say how much they get out of it, and
Speaker 1: you see people having these moments and you see people
Speaker 1: write to you and tell you like this, and I
Speaker 1: get a lot of letters and people say like this,
Speaker 1: this stuff actually helped me through a really rough time.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it helped me through a rough time.
Speaker 1: And then I think of all the other artists that
Speaker 1: helped me, that their records help me, and I'm like like,
Speaker 1: oh god, yeah, this is all really good, Like this
Speaker 1: is a really good thing to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're like in service to other people.
Speaker 1: A little bit, but mostly myself, you know, mostly like
Speaker 1: I'm doing it for my own mental health mostly, but
Speaker 1: it is working for other people too. It's helping other
Speaker 1: people do for sure, and that's really good. But then
Speaker 1: he's like, the night after night after night after night
Speaker 1: after night after night, I'm touring and being auto, and
Speaker 1: then you get weird. You just get weird.
Speaker 3: It can How does it get weird? I heard you
Speaker 3: talk about that being on tour can get weird, and
Speaker 3: I'm extremely curious about what you mean about that.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think it's just mostly exhaustion. But then I
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's the turning on and then
Speaker 1: turning off. It's like to turn for me to get
Speaker 1: into show mode to turn on to do that for
Speaker 1: like a two hour you know, give or take performance.
Speaker 1: Like it's not it doesn't come naturally. It's not like
Speaker 1: I'm like I can't wait to get out there. It's
Speaker 1: like it's bracing. It's I have to. I have to.
Speaker 1: It's on my mind all day. I have to. It's
Speaker 1: on my mind. It's like it's it's like every day
Speaker 1: is sort of like you're doing like a mini wedding.
Speaker 1: You gotta get ready, like to you know, just trying
Speaker 1: to like can I get ready for it? It's and you
Speaker 1: have to entertain. You have to. You don't know. You
Speaker 1: might wake up in a great mood, but then like
Speaker 1: something like you might by by seven thirty, you know,
Speaker 1: half an hour before you're supposed to go on stage something.
Speaker 1: You just might just be in the most miserable place
Speaker 1: for whatever reason.
Speaker 3: Just and you're the front man. So it's like all
Speaker 3: eyes are on you. You can't kind of just like
Speaker 3: play the back and play bass.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's like you and you give it.
Speaker 3: You're all you go super hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I won't complain it. It's cool. I mean,
Speaker 1: like I I it's a funny thing. I'm often miserable
Speaker 1: in the spotlight, but I'm usually like like like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: over here. You know. It's like it's like, no, don't
Speaker 1: look at me, look at.
Speaker 3: Me, Like this is my best side.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm definitely don't look at me, look at me
Speaker 1: type of person with a yeah, and I don't have
Speaker 1: to get in a zone. And sometimes you drink too
Speaker 1: much and something like I like, we don't have any
Speaker 1: really terrible, terrible habits and but like, oh yeah, I've
Speaker 1: how many times have been like I know now I
Speaker 1: know what cocaine's for. You know. It's like, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is why people do cocaine because they got to go
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can slip the switch.
Speaker 1: Yeah you can flip, but but I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: do that, but I do. You know. I have a
Speaker 1: few glasses of wine. Sometimes I won't, but those shows
Speaker 1: are always like really honestly that the shows I won't
Speaker 1: have any I was like, oh, those are if I
Speaker 1: don't drink. If I don't drink anything, then I'm in
Speaker 1: too inside my head. I think I think one or
Speaker 1: two glasses of wine is probably the best. Yeah.
Speaker 3: When I was talking to Aaron, he said something at
Speaker 3: some point about He's like, yeah, sometimes I think like
Speaker 3: I can't believe I'm forty six and I'm still in
Speaker 3: a band. That's so embarrassing. Yeah, do you have any
Speaker 3: similar feelings like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, we always do. I mean, like we
Speaker 1: always listen we play songs or like, does this sound
Speaker 1: like we're all trying to like wear skinny jeans. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like and even though many of us still we're
Speaker 1: skinny jeans, but there is that. The whole pandering thing
Speaker 1: is is like we just can't do it, you know,
Speaker 1: like we cannot like I can't, I can only write
Speaker 1: a certain way, and I mean the answer questions like yeah,
Speaker 1: we're often like feeling like we don't want to seem
Speaker 1: like we're faking it, or if being on stage singing
Speaker 1: a song that you don't really kind of believe or
Speaker 1: don't or you know, doesn't feel good. So I think
Speaker 1: if we if we started making songs that we felt
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, well, we're kind of just putting out
Speaker 1: records to service a you know, to service something a
Speaker 1: fan base or whatever, like it definitely wouldn't be be enough.
Speaker 1: So obviously we're always asking us like are these songs
Speaker 1: worth putting out, is it? I know that like we
Speaker 1: it's time for another record or it's time for another tour,
Speaker 1: you know, according to the healthy economy of a of
Speaker 1: a functioning band and all that kind of stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: But that has never been the thing that's ever ever
Speaker 1: gotten us anywhere in terms of motivating us to make songs.
Speaker 1: And it's just the songs. It's like if a song
Speaker 1: we like it and we're like, I like that's a
Speaker 1: that's a good song. That's a beautiful song. That's why
Speaker 1: we're still a band.
Speaker 3: Like that's enough too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I won't be able to be the kind of
Speaker 1: performer like Micjagger is, you know, because well, I mean
Speaker 1: and I think he's genuine, you know, through and through
Speaker 1: he is the you know. But I think my show
Speaker 1: and thing is like I think has to to age
Speaker 1: and evolve with me, mean meaning I used to lose
Speaker 1: my mind. I used to smash stuff. I used to like,
Speaker 1: you know, I would throw full bottles of wine thirty
Speaker 1: feet in the air, you know, and above the band,
Speaker 1: above me, and like and like in controlled way where
Speaker 1: I would like let it smash the pieces like right
Speaker 1: around me, you know, and like and I, you know,
Speaker 1: and going out into the crowd, and.
Speaker 3: And you go into the crowd.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I go and I do love that. I
Speaker 1: might still do that, but if I if I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm doing that, because if it's part of the show,
Speaker 1: I want to kill myself. You know.
Speaker 3: It's like or because it's expected or it's your stick
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and all that stuff kind of becomes a stick.
Speaker 1: And I think some of some of the self discussed
Speaker 1: was like I was self. I was discussed with my
Speaker 1: own shtick, you know, like writing about myself or like
Speaker 1: the idea of like doing that show and going out
Speaker 1: into the crowd, when I was like, that is not
Speaker 1: the person I am right now. I can't go sing
Speaker 1: these songs and go into a crowd and entertain people.
Speaker 1: I can't even I can barely. I can't watch TV,
Speaker 1: you know. I can bear. I'm I'm non verbal. I
Speaker 1: can't be an entertainer, you know. So like some show,
Speaker 1: I have to sort of just embrace whatever where whatever
Speaker 1: I am, you know. And so that's not always is
Speaker 1: a great show. I don't know, maybe it is. I
Speaker 1: I like watching uncomfortable performers do nothing, you know. I
Speaker 1: find that riveting. But yeah, so so there is there's
Speaker 1: a there is a there is a little bit of
Speaker 1: that of like if it feels like we're going through
Speaker 1: the motions and and trying to, you know, put on
Speaker 1: the show. If it feels like you know, Phantom of
Speaker 1: the Opera, you know that after a while, that's it's
Speaker 1: just it's just it's a bummer.
Speaker 3: I know that female artists have to deal with this
Speaker 3: a lot. But when you've gone out into the crowd
Speaker 3: like that, has anything sketchy ever happened to you?
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it gets weird, and like it gets it
Speaker 1: gets weird out there. That's why I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I like doing this anymore. It mostly it's
Speaker 1: almost all love and people just like that's the other thing.
Speaker 1: It's like it's people just crushed together and sing and
Speaker 1: and you're getting in your singing their hearts out, and
Speaker 1: it's people having an incredible moment and I am too.
Speaker 1: But then sometimes but but it gets scary. You know,
Speaker 1: it gets scary when when I'm just like that many
Speaker 1: bodies and the crush of people, so that and then
Speaker 1: obviously there's a lot of people that just want to
Speaker 1: hang on you and just like want to like you
Speaker 1: want to spend the like spend the whole time with you,
Speaker 1: and like I was like, you know what this is.
Speaker 1: I'm doing this kind of for me and for like
Speaker 1: lots of people. It's not just for you to hang
Speaker 1: on me and like, you know, follow me. I don't
Speaker 1: like when people like follow me the whole time and
Speaker 1: and try to like you know, and people often try
Speaker 1: to pick me up because and I never let that.
Speaker 1: I don't crowdsurfing is I is not. I hate it.
Speaker 3: It's because they can drop you. You can just fall
Speaker 3: into all that it.
Speaker 1: Is always it just looks so stupid to me when
Speaker 1: you're up there trying to sing and you're being carried.
Speaker 1: I mean I know, I mean I've done it a
Speaker 1: bunch of times. It is like a it's a bucket list,
Speaker 1: you got to do it. You know, you're just feeling
Speaker 1: like such an idiot. I don't know. I mean certain bands,
Speaker 1: if I were Blake, wedd eighty two or whatever, you
Speaker 1: hell yeah, but not I can't. I just it's not
Speaker 1: it just doesn't feel right. But anyways, like all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff is like you just have to constantly
Speaker 1: try to stay yourself and that changes. That's the thing.
Speaker 1: It changes. If you're trying to stay true to who
Speaker 1: you were when you were you know, thirty or twenty
Speaker 1: five or nineteen or whatever, you're kind of gonna look
Speaker 1: kind of silly. You know. Then again, well I even know,
Speaker 1: well I even know you know that I look silly.
Speaker 3: I know, right, probably not. I mean, well, your daughter
Speaker 3: will tell you that.
Speaker 1: I'm praying she does. So far, so far, she's been
Speaker 1: pretty kind. She's like, I mean she has seen some
Speaker 1: videos that we've attempted to make some videos, and she's
Speaker 1: like she's like, really, yeah, thing like that, she says.
Speaker 1: She's like, you look like you're trying to be all that.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like yeah, she's like, it ruins this
Speaker 1: fair criticiz ruined. She's like, it kind of ruins the
Speaker 1: song for me. I was like, uh, you got to
Speaker 1: kill that video, you know. I know it's good. Thank God,
Speaker 1: thank God for her.
Speaker 3: How do you feel about the sad Dad music label?
Speaker 3: Does that sit with you?
Speaker 1: I don't care. I mean, it's it's appropriate. I cannot
Speaker 1: I mean like yeah, it definitely like it's I totally
Speaker 1: understand it, and I think I I think I embrace it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels fine. I mean, I I it's not it's
Speaker 1: not how I would define myself, you know, entirely. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a little part of me. And I say that's
Speaker 1: a little part of of everybody. I think it's something.
Speaker 1: I think. The funny thing is like like my daughter,
Speaker 1: I think like loves the sad dads. Like we've been
Speaker 1: we saw hoodies that say sad Dad's on it. It's
Speaker 1: like her, you know, she's into it. She loves like
Speaker 1: like it's cool, you know. And for some reason, I
Speaker 1: think it's cool to be a sad dad. But but
Speaker 1: I but I also I can see why why other
Speaker 1: artists that get the sad and mostly it's young women
Speaker 1: get the sort of sort of you know, the sad
Speaker 1: label and how that can be infuriating. And but for me,
Speaker 1: like I've earned it. Yeah, I can't mat, I cannot
Speaker 1: say that that.
Speaker 3: Does not ship well Pitchfork. I read that Pitchfork wrote
Speaker 3: the national art dad rock as much as their men's
Speaker 3: magazine Rock.
Speaker 1: That's kind of more sleek. No, that one's hurtful.
Speaker 3: That's hurtful. I feel like that's sleek. That's like GQ rock.
Speaker 1: I think like Maxim when you say men's magazines, I
Speaker 1: think it like details and yeah, I don't think in
Speaker 1: GQ is I guess yeah, GQ reck. I don't think
Speaker 1: we're GQ rack either. That'd be cool. I wish we
Speaker 1: were GQ rack. I am. I am doing an interview
Speaker 1: with GQ I think soon.
Speaker 3: Have you done many interviews yet for this album?
Speaker 1: No, not that many. I'm doing a lot less. I'm
Speaker 1: doing a lot less than usual. Just yeah. A lot
Speaker 1: of it is because it's like, eh, the stuff on
Speaker 1: this record is a little bit harder to talk about.
Speaker 1: I think maybe I kind of was like, it's kind
Speaker 1: of all they are on the record, you know, so
Speaker 1: so like getting into it a little bit, digging further
Speaker 1: into it is it feels a little icky. But I
Speaker 1: know that's I know that's part of it, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to do and so but this has been delightful
Speaker 1: that it isn't that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate so much you taking the time and
Speaker 3: being so thoughtful and best wishes with the album. It's awesome,
Speaker 3: thank you, And sounds like you have another album already ready.
Speaker 1: Maybe we always say that nonetheless, it's gonna be it's
Speaker 1: gotta be great. So if it's not. It'll take it then.
Speaker 1: It might take some time, but thanks for doing this. This
Speaker 1: seems cool.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Matt Berninger for breaking down his songwriting process
Speaker 2: with Lea. You can hear all of our favorite national
Speaker 2: songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken
Speaker 2: Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell,
Speaker 2: Ben Holliday, and Eric's Antler. Our editor is Sophie Crane.
Speaker 2: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if
Speaker 2: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and
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Speaker 2: Kenny Beats I'm justin Richman. Consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.
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