WEBVTT - Matt Berninger 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.396 --> 0:00:22.916 Today we have part two of our run of interviews 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:26.356 with The National and celebration of their new album First 0:00:26.396 --> 0:00:31.076 two pages of Frankenstein. Last week, Broken Record producer Leah 0:00:31.116 --> 0:00:34.796 Rose talked to guitarist and composer Aaron Destner about The 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:40.476 National's interpersonal dynamics. Today, Leah picks up that conversation with 0:00:40.556 --> 0:00:44.796 the band's lead singer, Matt Buringer. Matt, whose fear and 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:48.636 anxieties are often on full display in this songwriting, talks 0:00:48.636 --> 0:00:52.036 about overcoming a debilitating bout of depression in the period 0:00:52.076 --> 0:00:55.396 before he started writing songs for the new album. He 0:00:55.436 --> 0:00:58.036 also explains how the combination of weed and iced tea 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:01.756 helped him spark his creativity and why he hopes his 0:01:01.836 --> 0:01:10.076 songwriting impresses Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. Is Broken Record 0:01:10.436 --> 0:01:11.996 liner notes for the Digital Age. 0:01:12.196 --> 0:01:13.116 I'm justin Ritchman. 0:01:14.076 --> 0:01:16.676 Here's Lea Rose with Matt Runninger. 0:01:18.036 --> 0:01:21.316 I saw a video that you recorded. I guess it 0:01:21.356 --> 0:01:26.396 was like two years ago for Amiba Records, and you 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:31.876 were picking through your favorite records and I started to 0:01:31.916 --> 0:01:34.276 sort of like listen to some of the to the 0:01:34.276 --> 0:01:36.836 records that you were showing, and it really helped me 0:01:37.076 --> 0:01:40.836 understand you as an artist and as a singer, and 0:01:40.916 --> 0:01:43.596 so I wanted to hear you just talk about some 0:01:43.676 --> 0:01:48.036 of these artists and see how specifically maybe their style 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:50.196 helped you develop your own style. 0:01:50.556 --> 0:01:53.516 Yeah. Cool, I don't remember what I picked. 0:01:53.276 --> 0:01:56.276 So yeah, I figure then maybe the list has changed 0:01:56.316 --> 0:01:56.836 at this point. 0:01:56.916 --> 0:01:59.356 Yeah, but maybe I'll be I'll disown this whole list, 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:00.156 but let's see. 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:03.476 Yeah, I know, right, But the first artist I wanted 0:02:03.476 --> 0:02:04.956 to ask you about was Tom Waits. 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:05.396 Uh huh. 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:08.036 When did you start listening to Tom Waits? 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:12.276 I think I freshman year at college, so that was 0:02:12.436 --> 0:02:15.276 nineteen ninety. I went to a couple of years at 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:18.756 Miami University of Cincinnati, so I was like, it was 0:02:18.756 --> 0:02:19.996 my first year of college, so this is the first 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.156 time I lived alone. And that's when I remember hearing 0:02:23.996 --> 0:02:27.156 Ah God. I think it was it was a compilation 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:30.796 I heard him on first, and I think it was 0:02:30.876 --> 0:02:34.356 the song Big Black Mariah, and I don't remember what 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:37.556 compilation it was on, and I fell in love of 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:39.836 that song, and I went out and tried and wanted 0:02:39.876 --> 0:02:43.116 to buy check out some records, but I remember all 0:02:43.116 --> 0:02:47.316 I could find was this one record, his early Year's 0:02:47.396 --> 0:02:50.076 record and like a guy called Tom Waits and said 0:02:50.156 --> 0:02:52.236 early years, and then there's this skinny white guy on 0:02:52.276 --> 0:02:54.156 the cover. I was like, this isn't This isn't the 0:02:54.276 --> 0:02:56.996 person from who's singing Big Black Mariah on the thing. 0:02:57.036 --> 0:02:58.996 I had heard this has got to be somebody else, 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:01.716 but I bought it anyway, and it was so I 0:03:01.716 --> 0:03:04.116 think I first got into his early years and then 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:07.796 connected all the dots to like Bone Machine, and that 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:09.876 was right right before Bone Machine came out. I feel 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:12.476 like that's when I can't remember exactly what all, but 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:16.596 it was the fun journey like learning hearing like you know, 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:21.796 semi you know, contemporary or or whatever nineties Tom Waits 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:24.756 and then going back and then then starting with his 0:03:24.916 --> 0:03:28.316 really early like those real acoustic demos and piano demos 0:03:28.396 --> 0:03:30.836 and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that was 0:03:30.876 --> 0:03:33.596 a big long time all through college, it feels like. 0:03:34.436 --> 0:03:36.116 And then and then I would come back to him 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:39.236 and in different records I would I would go into 0:03:39.276 --> 0:03:42.716 deep Dives and at different times and rain Dogs. 0:03:43.076 --> 0:03:44.476 Yeah that was the one that you picked out for 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:45.116 the semi bit. 0:03:45.316 --> 0:03:50.316 Yeah, yeah, I mean I also also remember another Okay, 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:51.996 this is how stupid I was with music. And I 0:03:52.036 --> 0:03:56.276 didn't didn't really do very deep at dives. I thought 0:03:56.316 --> 0:03:59.996 that was him on the cover forever, right and and 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:02.436 and I mean and I'd seen pictures of him and see, 0:04:02.516 --> 0:04:05.756 but for some reason, my brain made them the same, 0:04:05.956 --> 0:04:09.716 the same face, the same person. But yeah, I haven't tattoo. 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:15.036 That says Martha from his song Martha and which I 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:20.076 remember listening to and crying too after breaking up with 0:04:20.116 --> 0:04:22.956 my first college girlfriend or being broke up broken up 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:25.116 with it was mutual. I don't remember. 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:26.396 That. 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:30.796 I was driving back to Cincinnati from Oxford, Ohio and 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:33.876 realizing that was finally over, and then I transferred to 0:04:33.876 --> 0:04:36.076 a new school anyway. Yeah, so Tom Waits was like 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:38.676 right there and some of the most intense you know, 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:42.316 early early relationships, but then always like, you know, my 0:04:42.556 --> 0:04:45.636 Karna and I like just went through big deep Tom 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:49.236 Waits dives you know, over different times. And yeah, just 0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:54.996 just this combination of goofiness and heartbreak and darkness, you know, 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:58.036 and and spookiness. There's just something all about you know. 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:01.196 And he Nick Cave's another one who's who's like in 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:04.436 that sort of world, like the just the the the 0:05:04.516 --> 0:05:10.156 alchemy of sincerity and silliness you know, that's so magical. 0:05:10.236 --> 0:05:14.236 Sometimes do you hear them in your own performance when 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:15.356 when you sing like. 0:05:15.836 --> 0:05:19.996 Well, I'm sure, I mean I don't. I'm sure other 0:05:19.996 --> 0:05:22.236 people do more than I do. You know, you know 0:05:22.316 --> 0:05:23.996 I can't. I don't know what I look like in 0:05:24.036 --> 0:05:26.636 the mirror, you know everybody else. That's one of those things. 0:05:26.676 --> 0:05:29.636 But uh, but the other thing about what Tom Waits 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:33.396 is I was also really always really taken with and 0:05:33.516 --> 0:05:37.796 kind of inspired by his relationship with his wife Kathleen 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:40.436 Brennan and how they write together and there you know, 0:05:40.516 --> 0:05:43.236 one of one of my favorite songs of his all 0:05:43.316 --> 0:05:47.396 time is called Johnsburg, Illinois, and it's just a little 0:05:47.476 --> 0:05:49.676 portrait of a song about where she's from, you know, 0:05:49.756 --> 0:05:51.756 and just about about meeting her. And it's like the 0:05:52.596 --> 0:05:57.436 most delicate, little, sweet, little love song. And yeah, so 0:05:57.556 --> 0:06:00.876 I think that was something I always found so romantic 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:03.636 and so cool that here's this guy who can write 0:06:03.676 --> 0:06:06.996 all these songs about heartbreak and all this stuff, but 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:10.756 then also write them with his the one he loves, 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:11.956 you know, I think it's really cool. 0:06:12.316 --> 0:06:16.196 Yeah, that's beautiful. If you don't know a band, you 0:06:16.236 --> 0:06:18.956 don't know a singer, you don't know a song. How 0:06:19.036 --> 0:06:23.116 much patience do you have to sort of discover something new. 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:29.036 I'd like to think I have some, like like some patients, 0:06:29.036 --> 0:06:34.156 But that's a good question, because I do struggle a lot. 0:06:34.276 --> 0:06:37.036 I think with like even even like the playlist set 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:40.316 that I'm on, I mean, I just like I have 0:06:40.396 --> 0:06:42.356 a harder time. I mean, I don't know. I've was 0:06:42.396 --> 0:06:44.196 always a bit of a snob. And that's the thing 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:46.836 about music. It's like sports, so it's like, like you 0:06:46.876 --> 0:06:48.676 hate most stuff, you know, you want to talk about 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:51.356 how much it's like with your friends, like, oh, you know, 0:06:51.476 --> 0:06:53.916 and you define yourself by everything you hate, you know, 0:06:55.236 --> 0:06:58.036 or you don't get. And I was definitely that contrary, 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:00.876 and you know I was. I mean, the Smith's were 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:03.116 a band I love so much, just because none of 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:05.636 my other friends had ever heard of them, and the 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:08.076 boy with the thorn on his side was was definitely me, 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:10.916 you know. And so still I have a little bit 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:13.436 of that where I'm like, like, what, I don't get it, 0:07:13.476 --> 0:07:16.836 you know, But I realize I'm totally wrong most of 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:18.316 the time, and then and I'll get used to it 0:07:18.356 --> 0:07:20.916 and I'll learn things about it. So it's hard to 0:07:20.916 --> 0:07:23.396 say I might have been more of a snob when 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:25.996 I was, you know, in college than I am now. 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:30.276 And and now I I actually really have a fun 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:34.356 time studying like stuff I don't listen to at all. 0:07:34.396 --> 0:07:36.876 But I'm like, like I did a recent sort of 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:39.276 thing of just like what's you know, all these different 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:41.356 artists their number one song and trying to figure out 0:07:41.356 --> 0:07:43.716 what the tempo of their number one song was. You know, 0:07:44.236 --> 0:07:46.276 In the first three artists I looked at, it was 0:07:46.316 --> 0:07:47.956 like one eighteen, right, So. 0:07:48.356 --> 0:07:50.756 Yeah, I've heard like one twenty is kind of like 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:53.236 is that for a pop record? That might be kind 0:07:53.236 --> 0:07:53.916 of like the. 0:07:54.196 --> 0:07:57.036 I know, Well, I'm like I'm like I'm looking it 0:07:57.116 --> 0:07:58.796 up and then and I'm like trying to like, well, 0:07:58.836 --> 0:08:01.596 what is it? What are people like, you know, what 0:08:01.716 --> 0:08:04.636 is this the pop world? Like? What are these because 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:07.076 every wee talked about the formula, but then I did. 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:09.036 I did, But then it was it was a few 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:10.996 exercise because then I listened to a batch of other 0:08:11.116 --> 0:08:14.116 and suddenly I found a bunch that were, you know, 0:08:14.556 --> 0:08:17.076 like around one fifty, and then I've found a bunch 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:20.156 that are like like great songs that are around ninety, 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:22.196 you know. And then but then it's also like it's 0:08:22.236 --> 0:08:23.916 all it's all just in the groove and how you 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:26.796 subdivide it, and it's like something that's like ninety is 0:08:26.836 --> 0:08:29.436 also one eighty, you know, and depending on how you 0:08:29.476 --> 0:08:32.396 deliver it. And then so I kind of it didn't 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:34.956 lead me anywhere, but it was really it was kind 0:08:34.956 --> 0:08:37.076 of fun to dig into it. There's also I read 0:08:37.116 --> 0:08:39.436 about all this stuff and how it's slowing down pop music. 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:42.476 Is the average BPM used to be like in the 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:45.196 one forties and now it's down to somebody's saying it's 0:08:45.196 --> 0:08:48.156 like down to like one one o eight is an average. 0:08:48.956 --> 0:08:50.796 Oh it's funny. I mean I could definitely see that 0:08:50.836 --> 0:08:53.276 with hip hop because hip hop has like gotten way 0:08:53.436 --> 0:08:57.316 like more like slow in syrupy, but but one one 0:08:57.396 --> 0:08:58.716 forty is super fast. 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:02.716 Yeah, But the truth is it doesn't actually it doesn't 0:09:02.756 --> 0:09:06.556 matter at all because you could take any BPM and 0:09:06.636 --> 0:09:08.676 subdivide it in a way and put a swing to it, 0:09:08.716 --> 0:09:11.276 and how you like, all of a sudden, its momentum 0:09:11.356 --> 0:09:15.156 goes from sluggish to like it just it's like mixing paint. 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:17.276 You know. It's like it's like which is fun to 0:09:17.516 --> 0:09:19.716 you know, It's it's like there's not a formula. There's 0:09:19.756 --> 0:09:22.076 not like a there's not a formula for a good painting. 0:09:22.236 --> 0:09:24.156 You know. It's just so. 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:27.076 And also it seems like if you started with thinking 0:09:27.156 --> 0:09:29.556 about a formula, you're not going to end up in 0:09:29.596 --> 0:09:32.596 a good place. No, But it's because you're thinking more 0:09:32.636 --> 0:09:35.676 about like what the audience is going to like, rather 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:37.796 than what you're going to put forth. 0:09:37.796 --> 0:09:42.236 Right, I'd love to do Like lately, just going in 0:09:42.316 --> 0:09:45.076 with a friend and and and and just been like, well, 0:09:45.116 --> 0:09:47.116 just like pick any song and just kind of like, 0:09:47.236 --> 0:09:49.516 you know, we picked by your Side by Shah Day 0:09:49.756 --> 0:09:51.956 not long ago, and like and just like what is it? 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:54.276 What a good song? Like why like why is it 0:09:54.396 --> 0:09:56.596 so much better than all other songs at that same 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:58.636 tempo with the same chorus it gets. 0:09:58.916 --> 0:10:03.036 It's her voice delivers, Yeah. 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:06.276 It's it's it's impossible to totally obviously it's her, you know, 0:10:06.436 --> 0:10:08.716 but it's like, yeah, but why is that song of 0:10:08.756 --> 0:10:13.236 her stand out so much from even her catalog? You know, 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:16.916 it's like, well, there's so many people that have one 0:10:16.956 --> 0:10:19.596 song that just like is ten times bigger than the 0:10:19.636 --> 0:10:22.596 rest of their entire catalog, or you know, what is it? 0:10:22.676 --> 0:10:25.436 What is it about that one that thing. It is fun. 0:10:25.516 --> 0:10:28.316 It's just fun to like kind of try to see 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:31.396 if you can decipher magic. You know, if you can, 0:10:31.436 --> 0:10:33.996 if you can figure it out. But you can't. You 0:10:34.076 --> 0:10:36.996 just you can't. I mean, but but it is everything 0:10:37.076 --> 0:10:39.996 you've you're listening to every song we that is like 0:10:40.716 --> 0:10:43.636 was them trying something, probably listening to a bunch of 0:10:43.636 --> 0:10:45.796 other things and trying to put put together common to 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:49.836 the air combination, and occasionally the alchemy turns. It's it's 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:52.116 black magic. It totally as you still know, you know. 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:55.316 Yeah, I was thinking about it from the perspective of 0:10:55.356 --> 0:10:57.876 a listener, like if I sit down and listen to 0:10:57.876 --> 0:11:00.876 your new album, you sort of take for granted that, 0:11:00.996 --> 0:11:06.436 like somebody actually created this from silence. Sometimes you just 0:11:06.516 --> 0:11:09.876 assume like things always existed, like uh huh, there was 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:13.996 a time when hey, Jude didn't exist, Like somebody wrote 0:11:14.036 --> 0:11:15.436 that and made that music. 0:11:15.556 --> 0:11:18.036 My daughter and I were like driving around, we just 0:11:18.156 --> 0:11:21.116 drive around for hours just listening to songs, and she's 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:23.676 she's in that she's in that phase where she's just 0:11:23.716 --> 0:11:26.796 like really like songs are magic to her. Now. I say, 0:11:26.836 --> 0:11:30.716 it's like it's it's blooming. And she's she's fourteen, and 0:11:30.716 --> 0:11:33.076 and so we were listening to the Wise Blood album 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:35.876 a lot. We were listening to and she's learning that 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:37.516 on guitar. But then we were like started listening to 0:11:37.516 --> 0:11:40.116 some Beatles and stuff and just like and hey, Jude, 0:11:40.116 --> 0:11:41.996 it's just like, oh my god, it starts out one 0:11:42.036 --> 0:11:44.316 way and then at the end he's just like he's 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:46.836 just a nut job at the end, just like riffing 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:53.036 and just like, dude, Yeah, it's almost ridiculous at the end. 0:11:53.276 --> 0:11:56.876 And yeah, but the idea that like it started from 0:11:56.916 --> 0:11:59.036 nothing and then it's there, you know, and. 0:11:58.956 --> 0:12:00.996 Like there was a time when that song did not exist. 0:12:01.116 --> 0:12:03.636 It's fun, it's funny, it's crazy totally. 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:06.396 So I'm just curious with the national like with making 0:12:06.436 --> 0:12:09.436 this new album, Like it sounds like before or you 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:12.516 started recording it, you know, maybe you were going through 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:14.876 some sort of like writer's block. That's that's the story 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:18.396 that I'm hearing. Yeah, and that was somehow unlocked by 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:21.796 you reading Frankenstein. Is that a true story? 0:12:22.276 --> 0:12:25.996 It is true. I was in a really long writer's block, 0:12:26.196 --> 0:12:28.116 like I'd never been. It was it was a I 0:12:28.116 --> 0:12:30.356 couldn't write. I mean, I don't know to I mean, 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:34.036 it was it was caused by whatever, like self loathing 0:12:34.076 --> 0:12:36.396 and depression and all that stuff I put up. Yeah, 0:12:36.396 --> 0:12:37.796 I went into a phase where I just couldn't. I 0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:39.796 just like I didn't want to write. I was sick 0:12:39.836 --> 0:12:43.756 of writing about myself all that stuff. And I won't 0:12:43.796 --> 0:12:46.276 say there was any one thing that unlocked it. It 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:49.516 was mostly just kind of reconnecting with the band and 0:12:49.516 --> 0:12:51.516 and just kind of pushing through it in time and 0:12:51.556 --> 0:12:54.036 then and it started slowly coming back. But when it 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:57.276 when it started coming back, one song that I was 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:00.636 just like, the music came. It was new music that 0:13:00.676 --> 0:13:02.836 had just been sent and I was kind of like, okay, 0:13:03.396 --> 0:13:07.276 Like I I just wanted to fresh, fresh words in 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:11.876 my head. So sometimes I'll just go and grab literally 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:15.076 anything a magazine and anything and just like look at word, 0:13:15.196 --> 0:13:17.156 just skim it and just like until a word or something, 0:13:17.236 --> 0:13:20.356 just like whatever. It's just it's trying to just like 0:13:20.396 --> 0:13:23.036 shake them, shake the trees and see if an animal 0:13:23.036 --> 0:13:26.836 falls out right. And so, yeah, Franken Sang was the 0:13:26.836 --> 0:13:30.476 book I just randomly picked. And the words like tranquilize 0:13:30.516 --> 0:13:34.156 an ocean and this whole stuff about like the poles. 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:36.996 It all starts out in the Arctic and so I 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:39.796 started kind of just writing some imagery about that, but 0:13:39.876 --> 0:13:42.596 it was all I think it was imagery that I 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:44.316 was I was kind of using that imagery to write 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:47.276 about my brain and write about my feeling lost and 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:52.396 frozen and disconnected. And so the song is your mind 0:13:52.436 --> 0:13:55.396 is not your friend. But that phrase was just something 0:13:55.396 --> 0:13:58.556 that my wife Grin had been had been saying, he 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:01.316 had been echoing to me over the past year when 0:14:01.316 --> 0:14:03.276 I was in this phase, and I just like thought, 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:04.756 like you know, I was, I was like, I don't 0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:06.396 know if I can ever do it. I don't like, 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:08.916 I don't know if I can write anymore. I don't 0:14:08.956 --> 0:14:10.836 know if I can go on stage anymore. I don't 0:14:10.836 --> 0:14:13.276 know if I can tour anymore. I don't know if 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:14.756 I can do any of it anymore. I was just 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:19.236 I was feeling paralyzed by not just the writer's block, 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:21.036 but all of it, you know, just like everything was 0:14:21.116 --> 0:14:23.396 like I didn't there was a phase I didn't want 0:14:23.436 --> 0:14:25.796 to write. I didn't want to I didn't want to 0:14:26.476 --> 0:14:28.556 listen to anything, you know, I couldn't listen to anything. 0:14:28.556 --> 0:14:31.276 But when I started to break through a little bit 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:33.436 and those guys started sending me a bunch of news 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:35.556 like like, oh, he's working again. The rest of the 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:38.036 band started like hurry up, like like send him new stuff. 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:41.996 He's he's plugged in again. And and and the music 0:14:41.996 --> 0:14:43.316 for your mind is that your Friend was one of 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.756 those kind of new ones that came and and I 0:14:45.796 --> 0:14:49.116 wrote it really fast. Yeah, and it was triggered. But 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:51.756 I can't remember which song of the of the record 0:14:51.756 --> 0:14:54.036 I know. I know Once upon a pool Side was 0:14:54.076 --> 0:14:56.836 one of them that that was like, okay, finally a 0:14:56.916 --> 0:14:58.356 song came. And I think it was when I just 0:14:58.396 --> 0:15:01.596 started writing directly about the things I was, you know, 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:02.996 my fears and everything. 0:15:03.276 --> 0:15:06.556 Yeah. I'm curious what your wife says when you're in 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:08.596 that place when she's trying to encourage you and you 0:15:08.596 --> 0:15:10.916 tell her like I can't go back on stage, I 0:15:10.956 --> 0:15:12.996 can't write. This might be the end of it. 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:16.036 She was always like, that's totally fine. That is totally fine, 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:17.876 you know, And I was like, thank god, you know, 0:15:18.076 --> 0:15:20.076 And I was like, it's not totally fine. You don't 0:15:20.156 --> 0:15:22.516 understand how not fine that is. It won't be good 0:15:22.516 --> 0:15:24.436 for me, it won't be good for anybody. It's bad. 0:15:24.476 --> 0:15:28.836 It's that And she's like nobody wants and the band 0:15:28.916 --> 0:15:31.756 was like that too. Everybody's like there's I was. I 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:34.556 wasn't getting any pressure from anybody except for myself, So. 0:15:34.516 --> 0:15:36.316 You didn't feel like let off the hook, like, okay, 0:15:36.316 --> 0:15:37.676 cool now I can just like. 0:15:38.436 --> 0:15:41.436 No, I was let off the hook. I've always been 0:15:41.516 --> 0:15:44.156 let off the like like nobody none of us will 0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:46.756 ever Nobody in the band or I think none of 0:15:46.756 --> 0:15:51.556 our partners or whatever, nobody's got anybody on a hook. 0:15:51.596 --> 0:15:53.916 We all we all do this because we want to 0:15:53.956 --> 0:15:56.916 do it. And yeah, when I when I couldn't do 0:15:56.956 --> 0:15:59.556 it, it wasn't that I didn't want I wanted to be 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:02.036 able to do it. I wanted to want to do it. 0:16:02.396 --> 0:16:05.316 I really wanted to want to do it, but I 0:16:05.316 --> 0:16:07.916 I couldn't and I couldn't. The idea of like getting 0:16:07.916 --> 0:16:11.836 on stage made me you know almost you know, sick, 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:14.236 you know, like like just just so much anxiety that, yeah, 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:16.756 walk in even go to the airport, you know, into 0:16:16.796 --> 0:16:18.876 the face. I just like it wasn't like flying. I 0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:21.196 was just like did like I did not want to go. 0:16:21.316 --> 0:16:22.836 I did not want to go out into the world 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:26.036 or be you know, I wanted to stay unplugged or 0:16:26.916 --> 0:16:29.436 but I couldn't. You know so so. And then I 0:16:29.476 --> 0:16:31.996 was terrified that ship it's been it's been unplugged for 0:16:31.996 --> 0:16:34.716 so long, and I and it's the machine has stopped 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:36.316 for so long. I don't know if it's ever going 0:16:36.396 --> 0:16:38.916 to start again. And then it slowly started. 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:41.956 How did you feel when it started? Were you exhilarated? 0:16:42.156 --> 0:16:44.676 Did it feel like those feelings were kind of melting away? 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:49.116 It was slow. It was a slow It wasn't. There 0:16:49.116 --> 0:16:51.356 were there were a couple of times. I mean, I 0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:54.116 think once upon a pool side the guy in the 0:16:54.156 --> 0:16:56.876 band were like nice one, you know, like like you're 0:16:56.916 --> 0:17:00.516 like like that when you know, like nobody wanted nobody 0:17:00.516 --> 0:17:03.076 wanted to make too much of a deal about it. 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:06.196 When I started to write again, and and and and 0:17:06.396 --> 0:17:08.436 it did, it didn't. It wasn't like als in one day, 0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:11.676 I woke up and I was like, you know, on fire. 0:17:12.076 --> 0:17:14.916 It was. It was, yeah, it was very much, you know, 0:17:15.076 --> 0:17:19.356 starting the fire back from rubbing sticks together. But eventually 0:17:19.676 --> 0:17:22.516 eventually it warmed up, and you know, yeah, and then 0:17:22.556 --> 0:17:24.076 and then and then then I was writing a lot, 0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:27.436 and then we were on tour. I was Eucalyptus was 0:17:27.436 --> 0:17:30.396 written really fast, and new Order T shirt was written 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:33.996 really fast, and the outcott was written really fast, and 0:17:34.236 --> 0:17:37.916 half the songs were written quickly, and then the other 0:17:37.956 --> 0:17:42.636 half you know, started and then froze and then you know, 0:17:42.916 --> 0:17:44.836 morphed into something later. Yeah. 0:17:44.916 --> 0:17:48.636 Okay, so you didn't go back into the sunken place 0:17:48.676 --> 0:17:51.236 at a certain point where you out like once the 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:52.316 song started to come. 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:55.276 No, but I got but but I but I got 0:17:55.276 --> 0:17:57.796 above it enough to sort of like to be able 0:17:57.836 --> 0:18:00.676 to breathe. So that like so that when I sink 0:18:00.716 --> 0:18:03.196 back down, know that I you know, so, so I'm 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:06.316 not in the lowest part of it, you know, but 0:18:06.356 --> 0:18:10.436 I'm but I'm definitely not. I'm definitely aware that it's 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:13.236 it's it's right there, you know, the water is the 0:18:13.276 --> 0:18:15.676 water is always right about here, and sometimes you'll find 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:18.636 yourself and you're like it and I just know, I 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:21.876 know where I am. So I'm just more aware of 0:18:21.876 --> 0:18:24.276 the of the when it gets too deep to stand, 0:18:24.396 --> 0:18:26.756 you know, and just to back away a little bit. 0:18:26.836 --> 0:18:28.756 You know, whatever that is. It's just your brain, it's 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:30.316 just your totally you know. 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:35.436 Does having the songs and having actual tangible creative output, 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:38.396 does that sort of put any gas in your tank? 0:18:39.356 --> 0:18:43.316 Yes? Yeah, yeah, I mean the the thing that like 0:18:43.396 --> 0:18:45.916 when I when I feel like, oh there's I'm onto something. 0:18:45.956 --> 0:18:48.276 This could be this could be great, this could be 0:18:48.316 --> 0:18:50.436 a beautiful song. And you always like that that that 0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:52.636 first theo's first feelings where you just get get a 0:18:52.876 --> 0:18:55.956 even just a melody. Or I mean, there's those guys 0:18:55.996 --> 0:18:58.156 send me lots and lots of stuff. So I'm listening 0:18:58.196 --> 0:18:59.996 to a lot of music. They're like, if I could 0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:02.396 only do something, this could be incredible. But a lot 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:05.156 of times I like, I just can't. And or I 0:19:05.196 --> 0:19:07.916 every time I do something, it's what's beautiful about it 0:19:07.916 --> 0:19:11.196 goes away. I can ruin it, you know. It's like 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:13.916 it's it's easy to ruin a beautiful white canvas, you know. 0:19:14.276 --> 0:19:17.876 Or and their canvases aren't clean. They come already with 0:19:17.916 --> 0:19:21.636 so much information, and but sometimes I just cannot dance 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:24.356 with one of their sketches or one of the bits 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:27.276 of music. And and this was like I could hear 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:29.236 when there was when I couldn't write. I was like 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:31.916 I could hear that the music that I was trying 0:19:31.916 --> 0:19:35.636 to write to was was good. It wasn't. It wasn't 0:19:35.676 --> 0:19:38.436 that it was me I was I was I was 0:19:38.516 --> 0:19:41.036 not able to sort of find my way into it, 0:19:41.116 --> 0:19:43.516 and that was what was the worst part about it. 0:19:43.596 --> 0:19:47.036 But yeah, when a couple of little bits and some 0:19:47.156 --> 0:19:50.116 songs in a little phrase or melody like started like, Okay, 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:52.956 well that's good enough, that's a good that's a good 0:19:53.036 --> 0:19:55.716 lily pad. That's one little that's one little lego that 0:19:55.756 --> 0:19:57.556 I'm gonna I'm gonna put over here because I think 0:19:57.596 --> 0:19:59.476 I'm gonna use that little lego. You know. The rest 0:19:59.556 --> 0:20:01.116 is just a mess, and I don't want to even 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:03.436 look at that pile. But at least that one little lego, 0:20:04.036 --> 0:20:06.356 you know. I and then you find another lego, you know, 0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:09.356 and then and so yeah, the little tiny bits, little 0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:11.476 like it's a little little little lyric or a little 0:20:11.516 --> 0:20:14.276 melody or in a little spot in a song somewhere, 0:20:14.476 --> 0:20:16.596 we'll be like, ah, if I can build a song 0:20:16.996 --> 0:20:20.916 out from around that one little little spark, then it 0:20:20.996 --> 0:20:22.556 might end up being the best song I've ever written. 0:20:22.756 --> 0:20:24.956 That's the thing about songs. They're like these three little 0:20:25.156 --> 0:20:28.396 three and a half minute things that you could start 0:20:28.476 --> 0:20:30.476 and you have the sense of like this might be 0:20:30.636 --> 0:20:33.756 one like this could be a beautiful song, this could 0:20:33.796 --> 0:20:37.556 be imagined, this could be you know, sabotage. This could 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:41.036 be you know, hey, yah whatever, you know, you know 0:20:41.076 --> 0:20:44.356 what I'm saying, Like when you start on something like 0:20:44.436 --> 0:20:46.276 it could be one of the greatest songs I've ever written, 0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:49.836 and it could be, Hey, Jude, and almost never is, 0:20:49.996 --> 0:20:54.836 you know, but it could be. And that feeling is 0:20:55.116 --> 0:20:57.636 when like when a kid first learns like the G 0:20:57.876 --> 0:21:00.276 chord for the first time and they're like, holy shit, 0:21:00.516 --> 0:21:03.556 I can be Nirvana. You know I did once you 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:06.996 get that first thread. So that's first for me, Like 0:21:07.276 --> 0:21:09.756 the songs like just a little like a little bit 0:21:09.836 --> 0:21:14.956 where like, ah, that might end up being incredible if 0:21:14.996 --> 0:21:15.956 I can, if I can. 0:21:16.396 --> 0:21:18.916 So the hope, yeah, just the hope part of it. 0:21:18.956 --> 0:21:21.756 The belief that like this could be a beautiful thing 0:21:21.756 --> 0:21:25.076 that makes you, makes you and lots of people feel great, 0:21:25.196 --> 0:21:27.636 and it could be on the radio and you know 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:29.876 it could be. It's like just stuff that those simple 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:34.276 things you're like, those are such a enough serotonin or 0:21:34.356 --> 0:21:38.756 and doorphins get get sent off into your bloodstream that 0:21:38.916 --> 0:21:40.916 I just one of the little little things a day 0:21:41.476 --> 0:21:44.236 can keep your head above water and then keep you going. 0:21:44.316 --> 0:21:46.156 But that's why, you know, that's why like when months 0:21:46.196 --> 0:21:47.516 and weeks would go by it, and I didn't have 0:21:47.876 --> 0:21:49.796 one of those little things. I was getting none of them, 0:21:49.836 --> 0:21:50.476 you know nothing. 0:21:51.316 --> 0:21:53.316 We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be 0:21:53.396 --> 0:22:01.076 back with more from Leo Rose and Matt Burninger. We're 0:22:01.116 --> 0:22:03.876 back with Matt Burninger and Leo Rose. 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:08.916 Do you have any like wellness practices or anything that 0:22:08.956 --> 0:22:12.876 you you do that is supposed to be good for you, 0:22:12.876 --> 0:22:16.476 you know, whether it's like exercise or meditation or walks or. 0:22:16.916 --> 0:22:19.236 Yeah, I used to ride on my bike and walk, 0:22:19.796 --> 0:22:24.276 biking and walking just you know those things. Yeah, just 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:27.196 just just I mean, I think it's it's very well 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:31.076 known that just just moving your body is like just 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:35.116 getting your your body moving, because when your body is moving, 0:22:35.116 --> 0:22:37.156 it's not like it's not trying to like, you know, 0:22:37.436 --> 0:22:41.916 lose weight or get cardio, just move your body simply 0:22:42.036 --> 0:22:45.756 that those gears are at least doing that thing, you know, right. 0:22:45.796 --> 0:22:48.396 And so when those gears are doing that thing, your 0:22:48.476 --> 0:22:51.076 legs and your legs are moving and you're walking and 0:22:51.076 --> 0:22:53.716 you're breathing it out, the part of your brain that 0:22:53.796 --> 0:22:57.116 gets anxiety and gets chess can sometimes just like just 0:22:57.156 --> 0:22:59.196 slow down and let that thing and then and then 0:22:59.236 --> 0:23:02.196 suddenly the rest of the gears start. It just it 0:23:02.316 --> 0:23:05.036 greases the wheels, you know, It's like totally And when 0:23:05.036 --> 0:23:09.116 you don't do those things, I think the worry part, anxiety, 0:23:10.236 --> 0:23:13.316 all the other things that all the other wheels in 0:23:13.356 --> 0:23:16.356 your brain that you need are important for survival, all 0:23:16.356 --> 0:23:18.676 this kind of stuff, but they just start spinning and 0:23:18.716 --> 0:23:22.396 nothing everything else freezes and then you just like you're exhausted, 0:23:22.396 --> 0:23:26.476 but you can't sleep because your anxiety wheels are going. 0:23:26.556 --> 0:23:30.196 So yeah, I do do other things, but I mean, honestly, 0:23:30.316 --> 0:23:31.596 like when you're in a when I was in that 0:23:31.676 --> 0:23:33.156 dark face, I didn't want to. I mean, I go, 0:23:33.196 --> 0:23:35.476 I'd ride my two blocks and I turn around and 0:23:35.476 --> 0:23:37.596 come home. I was like, yeah, I couldn't ride my bike, 0:23:38.036 --> 0:23:41.556 I couldn't watch TV, couldn't listen to any music. So 0:23:41.596 --> 0:23:44.476 it was a sunken sunken place for sure, sunking place. 0:23:44.876 --> 0:23:48.156 Has listening to music with your daughter influenced your writing 0:23:48.196 --> 0:23:51.236 at all or the way that you're approaching music, because 0:23:51.236 --> 0:23:52.996 it's almost like you get to hear music for the 0:23:53.036 --> 0:23:55.796 first time. You know through her ears. 0:23:56.316 --> 0:24:01.876 Only that if you try to cater to anybody, you're 0:24:01.956 --> 0:24:05.716 gonna fail. Like her bullshit detector for like just sounds 0:24:05.756 --> 0:24:08.796 like they're just sounds like they're trying so hard to 0:24:08.836 --> 0:24:12.676 make make me think they're cool, or like like lines 0:24:12.756 --> 0:24:16.636 that are like seem like you know, seem like great 0:24:16.996 --> 0:24:20.356 all caps, you know, great lyrics. She's she's like, ah, 0:24:20.396 --> 0:24:22.596 it's a little too much. You know. It's like, oh gosh, 0:24:22.596 --> 0:24:26.876 you know, like kids are way more sophisticated than you think. 0:24:27.076 --> 0:24:31.236 And and you can't like, well, I mean it's hard 0:24:31.236 --> 0:24:32.916 to say. It's like I mean, I mean I don't 0:24:32.956 --> 0:24:37.036 want to like there's guilty pleasures, but still her favorite 0:24:37.076 --> 0:24:41.596 favorite stuff is more complex or just like the stuff 0:24:41.636 --> 0:24:44.956 that's like blurry and weird, and and it's like why 0:24:45.036 --> 0:24:49.036 kids love certain scary children's books that are just like 0:24:49.196 --> 0:24:51.196 you can't quite figure them out, Like why why do 0:24:51.316 --> 0:24:54.356 those resonate so much? It's always the stuff that's a 0:24:54.356 --> 0:24:58.316 little creepy, a little spooky, not setting it up, you know, 0:24:58.476 --> 0:25:03.356 with an obvious, you know, satisfying thing, like like something 0:25:03.436 --> 0:25:05.756 is a little off and a little a little hard 0:25:05.756 --> 0:25:07.836 to figure out, like what does that mean? That's the 0:25:07.876 --> 0:25:11.076 stuff that sticks with her. So yeah, it's really that's 0:25:11.156 --> 0:25:13.556 so it's really inspiring. I was like, oh yeah, I can't. 0:25:14.516 --> 0:25:16.836 You can never never phone it in and try to 0:25:16.876 --> 0:25:21.516 like market to you know, to a demographic or anything. 0:25:21.556 --> 0:25:23.436 You just have to. You really have to be honest 0:25:23.436 --> 0:25:27.036 with yourself. Are you are you interesting? Are being interesting 0:25:27.076 --> 0:25:31.956 to yourself? Because even twelve year olds can tell when 0:25:31.956 --> 0:25:33.436 you're when you're pandering. 0:25:33.796 --> 0:25:35.356 Do you play her music you're working on? 0:25:35.676 --> 0:25:36.956 Yeah? Yeah? 0:25:37.716 --> 0:25:39.436 Does she? What does she tend to tell you? 0:25:39.996 --> 0:25:42.436 She's always excited. She's always I mean, she's I mean, 0:25:42.476 --> 0:25:44.636 she does really like it. And but it's like I'll 0:25:44.636 --> 0:25:47.036 play it just because because occasionally she'll like like not 0:25:47.236 --> 0:25:52.316 like something, and and she's she's definitely not being nice, 0:25:52.596 --> 0:25:54.796 you know, because she sees, well Krin and I talk 0:25:54.876 --> 0:25:58.076 about it all the time, so she sees how not 0:25:58.316 --> 0:26:01.476 precious I am I and she sees how both of us, 0:26:01.876 --> 0:26:04.316 you know, tear about TV shows and tear apart movies 0:26:04.356 --> 0:26:06.156 and like, you know, like we're cruel with this stuff 0:26:06.996 --> 0:26:07.916 just because that's what you do. 0:26:07.996 --> 0:26:10.196 It's it's sounds like my house. 0:26:10.076 --> 0:26:12.796 Yeah, I mean, that's it's like because when something's great, 0:26:13.356 --> 0:26:15.756 like it has to be celebrated, and like in the 0:26:15.756 --> 0:26:18.076 mystery of why something is great, you just have to 0:26:18.516 --> 0:26:20.236 you have to dig into it. 0:26:20.236 --> 0:26:24.796 It really is easier to talk shit about something describe 0:26:24.836 --> 0:26:26.676 how incredible something is. 0:26:27.116 --> 0:26:30.076 Yeah, I mean mostly when I'm writing, I'm just trying 0:26:30.156 --> 0:26:33.436 to avoid being terrible. I mean, like you try to 0:26:33.436 --> 0:26:35.876 write something and like like it's terrible. It's like you 0:26:35.916 --> 0:26:38.156 try to sing a melody, It's like it's terrible. Certainly, 0:26:38.276 --> 0:26:40.916 wait that's wait, maybe something there and then you find 0:26:40.916 --> 0:26:45.516 And so it's always for me, it's always I step 0:26:45.596 --> 0:26:47.756 into the ugly, you know, I just step out and 0:26:47.796 --> 0:26:51.716 it's always ugly, or it's always it's very rarely a 0:26:51.836 --> 0:26:55.196 lyric or even a melody ever ever quite. It takes 0:26:55.196 --> 0:26:57.716 a lot of stepping in this way, that way, this 0:26:57.756 --> 0:27:00.036 way a little bit and adjustment and listening over and 0:27:00.036 --> 0:27:03.236 over and throwing it away. Like when I I write, 0:27:03.596 --> 0:27:05.556 you know, I'll put in a sketch from those guys 0:27:05.556 --> 0:27:08.236 and it's usually pretty simple. Sometimes it's not even it's 0:27:08.396 --> 0:27:10.396 just one part, you know, it's like you know, three, 0:27:10.476 --> 0:27:14.276 three or four chords like repeated, and I will I'll 0:27:14.316 --> 0:27:15.916 just start trying to sing to it, and I'll just 0:27:16.476 --> 0:27:19.676 track after track, layer after layer. I just like I 0:27:19.716 --> 0:27:23.876 have fifteen fifteen things that I'm just like just free 0:27:23.916 --> 0:27:28.436 associating and singing gobbledygook over and then I'll go back 0:27:28.476 --> 0:27:32.156 and listen and it's like most of it's all terrible, 0:27:32.196 --> 0:27:34.916 and it's just like, oh, that one little spot is. 0:27:34.876 --> 0:27:37.116 Like kind of like the melody is terrible, or the 0:27:37.196 --> 0:27:38.996 words are terrible, the lyrics are terrible. 0:27:38.996 --> 0:27:42.356 It's usually melody, you know. I'm always like looking for melody, 0:27:42.396 --> 0:27:45.796 not worrying about words. And then later I will try 0:27:45.796 --> 0:27:47.916 to put words to it, and I kind of write separately. 0:27:47.956 --> 0:27:50.756 I'll write little bits and pieces and then I'll see 0:27:50.796 --> 0:27:53.876 it fits in a song, and then I'll listen to 0:27:53.876 --> 0:27:56.676 to like what it sounds like I'm saying, and like 0:27:56.716 --> 0:27:58.396 go in that mode and just try to like write 0:27:58.396 --> 0:28:00.476 around what it kind of sounds like I'm saying and 0:28:00.516 --> 0:28:03.396 craft that it's it. It's like I kend go about 0:28:03.396 --> 0:28:07.636 it like all different ways. But almost never am I like, oh, 0:28:07.836 --> 0:28:10.396 like like step right in and like oh that's feeling good, 0:28:10.396 --> 0:28:13.196 and like a song comes out. It's usually like it's 0:28:13.236 --> 0:28:18.036 just always trying to avoid stuff that sounds cliche or 0:28:18.676 --> 0:28:21.836 you're trying too hard, or your sound too bored, or 0:28:21.876 --> 0:28:24.836 you you sound too energetic? Are you like it's just 0:28:24.876 --> 0:28:27.316 a million a million little dials, you know. 0:28:27.996 --> 0:28:29.876 But that seems good though, because at least it's the 0:28:29.876 --> 0:28:33.756 opposite of being paralyzed, Like that's very active. Yeah, and 0:28:33.876 --> 0:28:36.636 just trying and trying and trying, and kind of like reiterating, 0:28:37.676 --> 0:28:41.316 do you have any sort of rituals or any things 0:28:41.316 --> 0:28:44.196 that you put yourself through to get into a space 0:28:44.236 --> 0:28:48.276 where it's easier to write. We had Rivers Cuomo on 0:28:48.316 --> 0:28:51.396 the show, and he talked about how he tried sort 0:28:51.396 --> 0:28:54.756 of like a deprivation technique where he would lock himself 0:28:54.756 --> 0:28:57.796 in a bathroom for like two days and like not eat, 0:28:59.356 --> 0:29:02.156 just to try and like bring about creativity that way. 0:29:02.476 --> 0:29:03.796 And that's obviously extreme. 0:29:04.116 --> 0:29:04.396 Mh. 0:29:04.956 --> 0:29:07.796 But is there anything that you do, like even if 0:29:07.796 --> 0:29:10.476 it's like drink a little something, smoke something and then 0:29:10.796 --> 0:29:11.676 you're in this space? 0:29:12.636 --> 0:29:15.636 Yeah? Yeah, I mean I don't have I don't try 0:29:15.676 --> 0:29:18.436 to force it. I mean, when I was in that 0:29:18.516 --> 0:29:20.676 long phase where nothing has happened, I realized that, like, 0:29:20.756 --> 0:29:24.196 oh God, if you can't just sit around, it's it's weird. 0:29:24.236 --> 0:29:26.316 It's like I couldn't, I couldn't turn it on. And 0:29:27.756 --> 0:29:29.836 I kept trying, and I guess, I guess if I 0:29:29.876 --> 0:29:32.596 hadn't keep trying to turn it on. It may have 0:29:32.636 --> 0:29:34.996 never come on, and so you do have to sort 0:29:35.036 --> 0:29:36.876 of I did have to force it. I guess. Eventually 0:29:37.236 --> 0:29:38.556 I had to go to the studio those guys. I 0:29:38.556 --> 0:29:40.636 had to go in the booth and the microphone was 0:29:40.676 --> 0:29:43.636 on hand to try put something on down on record, 0:29:43.676 --> 0:29:46.116 you know, and that's it wasn't until then until the 0:29:46.476 --> 0:29:49.956 really started happening. So I did. Like just just getting 0:29:49.956 --> 0:29:52.316 in there and doing it is really the only thing 0:29:53.116 --> 0:29:56.116 sometimes when it's not happening at all that you can do. 0:29:56.156 --> 0:29:57.756 I don't know, just get in front of a microphone. 0:29:57.876 --> 0:30:02.156 But again, I will say, I kind of just have 0:30:02.236 --> 0:30:05.196 to get into a comfortable place with it, and I 0:30:05.236 --> 0:30:08.236 will most of the time I'm writing, like on a 0:30:08.276 --> 0:30:11.876 couch or in bed, headphones on and like just listen 0:30:11.916 --> 0:30:13.676 to stuff and just trying to zone out. Yeah, and 0:30:13.716 --> 0:30:17.636 sometimes I'll smoke some weed sometimes I'll you know, I don't. Yeah, 0:30:17.916 --> 0:30:19.756 I'll drink a little bit of wine sometimes like that. 0:30:19.836 --> 0:30:21.516 But I kind of I like it in the mode 0:30:21.516 --> 0:30:25.076 where you know, iced tea and weed works really great, 0:30:25.196 --> 0:30:26.996 you know, and kind of in the middle of the day, 0:30:27.116 --> 0:30:29.116 in the middle of the day and those weird moments 0:30:29.116 --> 0:30:29.756 those kind of. 0:30:29.756 --> 0:30:31.516 Like like light up or downer. 0:30:31.916 --> 0:30:33.836 Yeah, just a light I try to like just get 0:30:34.276 --> 0:30:37.036 I don't write well when I'm like loaded. I mean 0:30:37.076 --> 0:30:38.716 sometimes sometimes have. 0:30:38.676 --> 0:30:42.236 You ever recorded or written or recorded something when you're 0:30:42.316 --> 0:30:45.836 just like loaded, and you probably think it sounds really 0:30:45.836 --> 0:30:48.636 really good or maybe it's really deep, Like what is 0:30:48.636 --> 0:30:49.316 that experience? 0:30:49.356 --> 0:30:52.676 Like I like that. That's a good question. I'm trying 0:30:52.676 --> 0:30:55.236 to write. It's hard to I mean, yeah, I used 0:30:55.316 --> 0:30:57.396 I used to. My favorite thing in the world to 0:30:57.476 --> 0:31:00.876 do was get a six pack and a pack of 0:31:00.876 --> 0:31:05.396 cigarettes and listen to records. And I have a notebook 0:31:05.436 --> 0:31:08.556 and just like just filling notebooks and just writing and 0:31:08.596 --> 0:31:11.596 writing right and listening and just and and and it 0:31:11.636 --> 0:31:13.516 was just like it was great. This is what can 0:31:13.556 --> 0:31:16.076 I say? It just it was it was so much fun. 0:31:16.156 --> 0:31:18.916 But I but I don't do it like that anymore, 0:31:18.996 --> 0:31:20.956 just because it's like I feel like shit if I drink, 0:31:21.436 --> 0:31:23.996 drink or smoke that much stuff, you know, and so 0:31:23.996 --> 0:31:25.916 so yeah, it's a it's a healthier thing. And and 0:31:26.316 --> 0:31:28.756 I do it's it's good to ride to ride bike 0:31:28.876 --> 0:31:30.396 and I'll smoke some weed and ride my bike and 0:31:30.516 --> 0:31:32.796 and and and if I get in a mode, I'll 0:31:32.836 --> 0:31:36.436 be I'll be pulling over every two minutes to like write, 0:31:36.436 --> 0:31:39.636 just to text myself a little thing, a little lyric 0:31:39.716 --> 0:31:42.036 or a little line. So that's that's kind of how 0:31:42.036 --> 0:31:45.516 it works. Like I like to get into kind of meditative, 0:31:46.116 --> 0:31:49.236 rhythmic zone. I won't sit there and try to like 0:31:49.636 --> 0:31:52.316 craft architect a song. I'll like, I'll get a little 0:31:52.316 --> 0:31:53.876 bit I like and then I'll sing it over and 0:31:53.916 --> 0:31:55.836 over and over again, and you know, on a loop 0:31:55.876 --> 0:31:58.716 and just just kind of just just practicing the rhythm 0:31:58.796 --> 0:32:00.996 of a of a of a you know, practicing a swing. 0:32:01.436 --> 0:32:03.156 You just kind of keep doing it until you get 0:32:03.156 --> 0:32:05.716 the kind of rhythm right and the tone of it right. 0:32:05.756 --> 0:32:08.196 And I'll do that and that's probably because I'm you're 0:32:08.236 --> 0:32:09.916 stoned and you're just kinda in that mode just like 0:32:10.236 --> 0:32:12.636 you can you can marvel at the same lego like 0:32:12.716 --> 0:32:16.516 for a while totally, but it's good. But you manage 0:32:16.516 --> 0:32:20.036 to kind of, you know, get that stone just right. 0:32:20.116 --> 0:32:21.756 So when you when you're gonna put it into the 0:32:21.916 --> 0:32:25.116 end of the you know, another brick in the wall, whatever, 0:32:25.236 --> 0:32:27.396 it's like you gotta get that break just right. And 0:32:27.516 --> 0:32:31.596 other times it's then you're like, okay, now I've filled this. 0:32:31.596 --> 0:32:33.836 This sketch is only three minutes long, but I've got 0:32:34.436 --> 0:32:36.796 seventeen different melody options. 0:32:36.876 --> 0:32:39.916 Right, It's like, there's wow, are they all original melodies? 0:32:39.996 --> 0:32:40.076 Like? 0:32:40.636 --> 0:32:43.436 How do you know they don't come from I would 0:32:43.436 --> 0:32:45.236 hope they don't, But it seems like it was just 0:32:45.236 --> 0:32:46.596 sort of a natural thing to happen. 0:32:46.836 --> 0:32:48.396 I don't know, you just think it's a weird thing. 0:32:48.396 --> 0:32:51.476 There'd be like you can start almost anywhere. It's like, 0:32:51.796 --> 0:32:53.876 I mean, I used to think like, okay, here's a guitar, 0:32:54.356 --> 0:32:56.596 here's some guitar chords and a beat in a rhythm. 0:32:56.596 --> 0:32:58.596 It's like, okay, well, there's only so many things I 0:32:58.596 --> 0:33:00.916 can do. I learned a longer. You guys like, oh shit, 0:33:00.996 --> 0:33:05.196 you can. You may feel like you're cornered in with something. 0:33:05.276 --> 0:33:07.596 It's like you can start anywhere on it. You can, 0:33:07.676 --> 0:33:11.676 like you it's it's almost infinite. How many I mean 0:33:11.716 --> 0:33:13.596 you can you can start on a note that rubs 0:33:13.636 --> 0:33:16.396 against whatever notes are there and and play with that 0:33:16.396 --> 0:33:18.596 that way. It's like you can you can put any 0:33:18.676 --> 0:33:21.356 kind of color onto any kind of canvas and try. 0:33:21.516 --> 0:33:24.556 You know, sometimes it's just it's just not a it's 0:33:24.596 --> 0:33:26.676 just doesn't feel right, you know, it just doesn't feel 0:33:26.716 --> 0:33:28.676 the personality of it, like I always though about the 0:33:28.676 --> 0:33:32.036 personality of songs. It's just like the personality doesn't feel 0:33:32.076 --> 0:33:34.316 like me, you know, or I didn't feel like I 0:33:34.356 --> 0:33:36.396 wasn't in that zone. I can't, I can't quite get 0:33:36.476 --> 0:33:40.316 even though it's I like that personality, but it's just like, 0:33:40.916 --> 0:33:43.436 that's not what I need now, that's not the that's 0:33:43.436 --> 0:33:48.156 not the character I need to to talk to right now, 0:33:48.276 --> 0:33:50.356 you know. It's that's that's that's what the songs are like. 0:33:50.436 --> 0:33:53.236 They're like they're like a partner that that you have 0:33:53.316 --> 0:33:55.596 to sort of like dance with, and and some you know, 0:33:55.676 --> 0:33:57.756 some people you like are in rhythm with, and some 0:33:58.276 --> 0:34:01.036 like you know, some sketches that Aaron Aaron sent me 0:34:01.236 --> 0:34:03.396 ended up, you know, on other people's records in our 0:34:03.516 --> 0:34:04.076 huge hits. 0:34:04.116 --> 0:34:06.596 You know. It's like, oh, like, what's an example of that. 0:34:06.836 --> 0:34:09.036 I don't. I don't know. There's there's a bunch of 0:34:09.956 --> 0:34:13.676 I think Cardigan and Willow and some other ones. I 0:34:13.676 --> 0:34:17.316 had been taken a whack at some ideas or at 0:34:17.356 --> 0:34:19.796 one point those were in a batch that I was like, 0:34:19.836 --> 0:34:21.676 I couldn't I couldn't do anything too and I still 0:34:22.036 --> 0:34:25.196 it's like I've listened to those I studied those songs. 0:34:25.236 --> 0:34:26.876 It's like, oh, look what she did with. 0:34:26.876 --> 0:34:29.396 Those songs, right, I was gonna say, yeah, like that 0:34:29.516 --> 0:34:30.956 must be interesting. 0:34:30.796 --> 0:34:35.236 Yeah, because I've I've got things like like that are 0:34:35.316 --> 0:34:40.436 just really different melody and and and and written like 0:34:40.676 --> 0:34:43.796 places that like totally different songs. And it's like that's 0:34:43.796 --> 0:34:46.596 one of those things that's really really uh, really kind 0:34:46.636 --> 0:34:49.076 of fun about about songs and what we were talking 0:34:49.076 --> 0:34:51.316 about before. Like for example, when we when I go 0:34:51.356 --> 0:34:53.396 in and say like, okay, here, here's you know, by 0:34:53.436 --> 0:34:56.676 your side by Shahda, I mean you could learn it. 0:34:57.196 --> 0:34:58.996 First you learn it and then you get Okay, that's 0:34:59.036 --> 0:35:01.476 that song. But like to kind of like try do 0:35:01.596 --> 0:35:04.036 a song that's kind of in the zone, it's like 0:35:04.236 --> 0:35:08.156 really really hard to match a zone of a thing, 0:35:08.276 --> 0:35:09.636 you know. It's it's kind of I mean, you can 0:35:09.716 --> 0:35:10.836 kind of match it, but it's. 0:35:10.756 --> 0:35:13.276 Like, do you mean if you were to try and 0:35:13.316 --> 0:35:16.996 cover it or make something in a similar vein you can. 0:35:16.836 --> 0:35:21.116 Cover, but like even covering songs does not mean that 0:35:21.156 --> 0:35:22.956 song is gonna have any of that magic that that 0:35:23.196 --> 0:35:26.476 Ridge that one did. It's weird. So I'm saying it's like, 0:35:27.596 --> 0:35:30.076 I'm never nervous about somebody thing. Oh you stole that 0:35:30.116 --> 0:35:34.836 from like like maybe yeah, maybe, Like like that, every 0:35:34.876 --> 0:35:37.676 little every single I mean everything that you hear is 0:35:38.356 --> 0:35:41.756 has taken and re recrafted. And it's not even like 0:35:41.796 --> 0:35:44.356 they try hard. It's like it's kind of impossible to 0:35:44.436 --> 0:35:46.876 like you change one little thing, everything starts to change, 0:35:46.916 --> 0:35:51.716 you know. So I always listening to the Miley Cyrus 0:35:51.716 --> 0:35:54.156 Flowers and she even talks about what was that. It 0:35:54.236 --> 0:35:56.756 was like it's her biggest song, I think flowers now, 0:35:56.796 --> 0:36:00.636 and it's like she was sort of ripping off the 0:36:00.676 --> 0:36:04.596 Bruno Mars song or something up to be No be 0:36:04.676 --> 0:36:06.796 Your Man, I want to be Your Man or something 0:36:06.836 --> 0:36:09.116 like that. His his biggest song. He's like a billion 0:36:09.156 --> 0:36:13.196 and a half, you know, listens and like, oh yeah, 0:36:13.276 --> 0:36:15.516 there's there's that little section right there. I mean the 0:36:15.596 --> 0:36:20.116 lyrics are I mean, flowers rhyming, flowers with hours and 0:36:20.116 --> 0:36:24.276 and hand with sand are all there. You know. She 0:36:24.316 --> 0:36:26.956 could definitely just like took all that and reaf you know, 0:36:26.996 --> 0:36:28.436 and she talks about it. That's the best way to 0:36:28.436 --> 0:36:31.036 approach it, because like it's the other ones, they're both giant, 0:36:31.036 --> 0:36:33.596 massive songs. And you're like, oh yeah, there's that little 0:36:33.636 --> 0:36:35.796 part where like, oh yeah, you can hear that note 0:36:36.076 --> 0:36:39.276 on that thing, there's there's that little fragment that definitely 0:36:39.396 --> 0:36:42.596 was taken from that. But I don't like, I don't 0:36:42.756 --> 0:36:45.276 like that's that's how everything's made, you know, kind of 0:36:45.316 --> 0:36:48.956 like I I think that's uh, And so I think 0:36:48.996 --> 0:36:53.396 I do that probably more than I realize. But it's 0:36:53.756 --> 0:36:58.476 usually I often sing other people's lyrics to music just 0:36:58.876 --> 0:37:03.596 because it's impossible. Often songs tempo and time signature or 0:37:03.676 --> 0:37:07.236 chords or whatever one lyrics will you just it forces 0:37:07.276 --> 0:37:10.716 you to change everything around, you know, just uh, and 0:37:10.916 --> 0:37:13.356 you change melody and everything changes, and then and then 0:37:13.436 --> 0:37:15.836 you find your own you know, and then those those 0:37:15.876 --> 0:37:18.196 words that you started with somebody else just just just 0:37:18.196 --> 0:37:21.316 just disappear, and your own things just sort of grow 0:37:21.316 --> 0:37:23.596 in the cracks of that you made around it. I 0:37:23.636 --> 0:37:28.596 don't know, it's the process is usually incredibly fun, really, 0:37:28.796 --> 0:37:30.996 and that's why I like in that phase where I 0:37:31.156 --> 0:37:34.796 just like I was heartbroken over the loss of my 0:37:34.956 --> 0:37:37.356 love for it. That was such a bummer, like to 0:37:37.596 --> 0:37:41.196 like to not for even music, not not to give 0:37:41.236 --> 0:37:44.596 me that thrill or that serotonin or that endorphin or 0:37:44.636 --> 0:37:45.636 that little stuff. 0:37:46.476 --> 0:37:48.716 We'll be back after another quick break with more from 0:37:48.796 --> 0:37:56.516 Leo Rose and Matt Berninger. We're back with the rest 0:37:56.596 --> 0:38:02.676 of Lea Rose's conversation with The Nationals. Matt Berninger, Is. 0:38:02.596 --> 0:38:04.956 It true that there's sort of like an unwritten rule 0:38:05.116 --> 0:38:07.596 in the band that people don't directly ask you about 0:38:07.636 --> 0:38:08.996 the meaning behind your lyrics? 0:38:09.476 --> 0:38:14.476 I didn't know. They don't. They almost never do. I 0:38:14.476 --> 0:38:15.716 don't think they ever do. 0:38:15.716 --> 0:38:17.436 Does anyone ask you if you're. 0:38:17.556 --> 0:38:21.316 Like fans do and and journalists do, and there's no rule, 0:38:21.636 --> 0:38:26.636 but no, the guys usually don't. Yeah, they don't. I 0:38:26.676 --> 0:38:30.996 don't think I don't. I'd have to think about when 0:38:32.076 --> 0:38:33.396 any of those guys ever asked me. 0:38:34.116 --> 0:38:36.276 Do you care what they think about your lyrics? 0:38:36.836 --> 0:38:41.356 Yeah? Yeah, totally, of course. Yeah. I'm always trying to 0:38:41.356 --> 0:38:42.556 impress them. Yeah. 0:38:42.636 --> 0:38:44.636 Is there some when you're writing? Is there somebody in 0:38:44.676 --> 0:38:47.836 your mind who you're trying to impress or you're writing for? 0:38:48.636 --> 0:38:52.276 Yeah, those guys in Krin, you know, and and yeah, 0:38:52.316 --> 0:38:56.036 and my daughter and and and the appears you know. Yeah, 0:38:56.076 --> 0:38:59.236 I want to I want to impress all the walkman. 0:38:59.356 --> 0:39:01.916 I want to impress Phoebe Bridges. I want to you know, 0:39:02.436 --> 0:39:06.436 I went Taylor Swift to to to be as impressed 0:39:06.436 --> 0:39:08.316 by me as I am by her, you know. And 0:39:08.396 --> 0:39:11.916 so yeah, I want to be loved. I want to 0:39:11.956 --> 0:39:14.596 be I want to be adored and I want to 0:39:14.596 --> 0:39:17.236 be But that's the that's the what's such a funny thing. 0:39:17.316 --> 0:39:22.156 It's like, if you try to write with that purpose, 0:39:22.676 --> 0:39:25.636 you're gonna sound desperate, you know, so to be truly 0:39:25.716 --> 0:39:30.036 adored and to be for other, your other your favorite artists, 0:39:30.036 --> 0:39:32.916 to get to actually really like what you're doing, you 0:39:33.036 --> 0:39:35.556 have to do weird ship that is a little maybe 0:39:35.596 --> 0:39:39.556 uncomfortable and scary and maybe isn't isn't gonna work, you know. 0:39:40.116 --> 0:39:43.276 That's that's what's gonna impress the walkman, that's what's gonna 0:39:43.396 --> 0:39:47.316 impress you know, my wife, and and and and and 0:39:47.316 --> 0:39:49.076 and then that's what the band wants, Like the band 0:39:49.076 --> 0:39:52.996 doesn't want our band doesn't want necessarily want a hit 0:39:53.316 --> 0:39:56.876 if it's not real, if it doesn't feel like kind 0:39:56.876 --> 0:39:58.196 of real to us. 0:39:58.396 --> 0:40:01.796 I was wondering with Karin, like when she hears things 0:40:01.796 --> 0:40:05.636 that you've written, if you're writing about an old love 0:40:05.996 --> 0:40:09.596 or loving someone missing somebody, is she ever, like, who 0:40:09.676 --> 0:40:10.676 are you talking about? 0:40:11.596 --> 0:40:16.316 No, she's When we first started dating, I was in 0:40:16.356 --> 0:40:19.716 the middle of writing all these songs, you know, a 0:40:19.756 --> 0:40:22.836 bunch of songs. You know that that she's kind of 0:40:22.836 --> 0:40:25.916 like right away was kind of like so into all 0:40:25.956 --> 0:40:27.676 of it, like the writing of songs. So it's always 0:40:27.676 --> 0:40:33.036 been that way. And and I've also been mostly writing 0:40:33.076 --> 0:40:36.716 about her, you know. It's like or the band or yeah. 0:40:36.756 --> 0:40:42.036 But then there's the like sometimes songs are not autobiographical, obviously, 0:40:42.076 --> 0:40:46.036 but they're but there's sort of exercises and looking into 0:40:46.756 --> 0:40:49.796 a window or looking or looking over over the edge 0:40:49.836 --> 0:40:54.716 of something, and like Eucalyptus or whatever is obviously a 0:40:54.756 --> 0:40:58.676 song about about splitting up things. And and and I 0:40:58.716 --> 0:41:00.876 think it's kind of a funny song about like, you know, 0:41:01.516 --> 0:41:03.276 like all the things like how do you how do 0:41:03.316 --> 0:41:07.356 you split up your water subscription? You know, But so 0:41:07.436 --> 0:41:10.996 you're writing writing about breaking up is a way of 0:41:11.116 --> 0:41:14.356 sort of like of confronting your fears. You know. It's 0:41:14.356 --> 0:41:16.556 like and like once upon a pool Side, and like 0:41:17.156 --> 0:41:20.396 a lot of those record is is really like the 0:41:20.436 --> 0:41:23.996 fear of maybe that the band being over. And it's 0:41:24.116 --> 0:41:26.996 very romantic. Generally, there'll be bits and pieces of the 0:41:26.996 --> 0:41:29.716 songs that like in this usually well much later, like 0:41:29.756 --> 0:41:32.036 after the record's out and after finally it's all finished, 0:41:32.036 --> 0:41:35.276 where like yeah, wasn't that again? And you know what, 0:41:35.396 --> 0:41:37.156 you know, like it'll be way later, but in the 0:41:37.156 --> 0:41:40.516 middle of the creative process, if it's good, if it's like, 0:41:40.756 --> 0:41:43.076 that's great, like that's all we that's all we ever 0:41:43.116 --> 0:41:48.156 talked about. Sometimes sometimes much later, once the art is finished, 0:41:48.916 --> 0:41:51.116 we'll be like, maybe we should talk about that a 0:41:51.156 --> 0:41:51.756 little bit, you know. 0:41:52.476 --> 0:41:55.116 Yeah, I was wondering, Yah, is there ever an instance 0:41:55.156 --> 0:41:57.756 where you write a lyric and it's the beginning of 0:41:57.796 --> 0:42:01.756 something that might almost be subconscious, but then it ultimately 0:42:01.796 --> 0:42:02.676 comes true later. 0:42:03.196 --> 0:42:05.316 I mean, what you made me think of is maybe 0:42:05.356 --> 0:42:08.556 not what you're asking, but I I do, I do, 0:42:09.356 --> 0:42:13.636 And I did feel that maybe all of this writing, 0:42:13.756 --> 0:42:17.556 of all these making these big you know, these beautiful 0:42:17.556 --> 0:42:20.036 things out of uncomfortable feelings that I've been doing for 0:42:20.076 --> 0:42:23.116 twenty years and you know, we're on the ninth record 0:42:23.236 --> 0:42:25.236 or whatever, and plus all the other like so, I mean, 0:42:25.356 --> 0:42:30.356 so like writing hundreds of songs about some of this stuff, 0:42:30.396 --> 0:42:33.436 I was like, am I manifesting this character? Am I becoming? 0:42:33.556 --> 0:42:37.556 Am I am I did I create this, this, this 0:42:37.876 --> 0:42:41.276 sad sack, you know, because I write about it so much? 0:42:41.716 --> 0:42:43.596 Do you think you did? Like where did you land 0:42:43.636 --> 0:42:44.276 with that question? 0:42:44.396 --> 0:42:47.236 It's in between, It's like yes, But I also write 0:42:47.276 --> 0:42:50.076 all these songs because like like I am that way 0:42:50.676 --> 0:42:52.996 and have that way and and and that's how I 0:42:53.156 --> 0:42:55.436 That's how I that's how I survive. That's how I 0:42:55.876 --> 0:42:58.716 feel better about life is because I make a little 0:42:58.716 --> 0:43:02.796 something some kind of semi enjoyable and kind of fun 0:43:02.836 --> 0:43:06.476 and beautiful and moving out of this ugly feeling. You know. 0:43:07.036 --> 0:43:09.796 That's what all great love songs. You know, It's like 0:43:09.876 --> 0:43:15.476 it's like it's like sad, ugly, uncomfortable feelings. What's a melody? 0:43:15.676 --> 0:43:18.636 You know? And and and and that's that All the 0:43:18.676 --> 0:43:22.556 best love songs are kind of crushing and and so 0:43:22.676 --> 0:43:27.356 I think I do think I'm a much healthier person. 0:43:27.476 --> 0:43:29.916 Haven't written all this stuff than have not? You know? 0:43:30.436 --> 0:43:34.036 I do know that like other people like listening to 0:43:34.196 --> 0:43:36.356 like we talked about, like the artists that we've been 0:43:36.356 --> 0:43:40.076 talking about, including example, go back to Tom Waits, I 0:43:40.116 --> 0:43:44.596 know that Tom Waits made me mentally healthier. You know, 0:43:44.596 --> 0:43:47.476 it made me made me a happier person made me 0:43:47.596 --> 0:43:51.236 a made me like myself more, and so did Nick Cave. 0:43:51.316 --> 0:43:54.236 So all my favorite artists, you know, make me like 0:43:54.316 --> 0:43:57.116 myself a little bit more because they're great about about 0:43:57.116 --> 0:43:59.676 writing about what they hate about themselves, and I can 0:43:59.756 --> 0:44:02.196 identify with that. And I was like, if that person 0:44:02.236 --> 0:44:04.516 hates themselves, like you can say that that terrible thing 0:44:04.516 --> 0:44:07.516 about themselves and make it so beautiful. I'm like, oh, 0:44:07.556 --> 0:44:09.636 maybe maybe I can make something out of all the 0:44:09.676 --> 0:44:12.676 things I hate about myself. So yeah, But then at 0:44:12.716 --> 0:44:15.196 a certain time, you know the point of like all 0:44:15.236 --> 0:44:17.796 these years, especially getting on stage and performing it and 0:44:17.836 --> 0:44:20.236 doing it, you know, and then and then and then 0:44:20.316 --> 0:44:23.236 and then having like a fan base, which is like incredible, 0:44:23.916 --> 0:44:26.836 Like I have fans, but fans of songs I wrote, 0:44:26.876 --> 0:44:29.996 you know, it's like it's it's sometimes you they forget 0:44:30.116 --> 0:44:33.836 how like most people don't have fans of songs that 0:44:33.876 --> 0:44:36.796 they wrote. You know, it's like an incredible thing. Strangers 0:44:36.836 --> 0:44:39.676 that you've never met, like these songs that you wrote, 0:44:39.716 --> 0:44:42.036 these things you wrote about your own feelings. You know, 0:44:42.676 --> 0:44:45.636 like that's so lucky, you know. And then when people 0:44:45.876 --> 0:44:48.276 like say how much they get out of it, and 0:44:48.356 --> 0:44:50.876 you see people having these moments and you see people 0:44:50.916 --> 0:44:53.076 write to you and tell you like this, and I 0:44:53.116 --> 0:44:55.796 get a lot of letters and people say like this, 0:44:55.796 --> 0:44:59.076 this stuff actually helped me through a really rough time. 0:44:59.556 --> 0:45:01.356 And I'm like, it helped me through a rough time. 0:45:01.436 --> 0:45:02.796 And then I think of all the other artists that 0:45:02.836 --> 0:45:04.956 helped me, that their records help me, and I'm like like, 0:45:05.036 --> 0:45:07.316 oh god, yeah, this is all really good, Like this 0:45:07.436 --> 0:45:08.996 is a really good thing to do. 0:45:09.796 --> 0:45:12.076 Yeah, you're like in service to other people. 0:45:12.196 --> 0:45:15.236 A little bit, but mostly myself, you know, mostly like 0:45:15.556 --> 0:45:18.356 I'm doing it for my own mental health mostly, but 0:45:18.396 --> 0:45:20.796 it is working for other people too. It's helping other 0:45:20.836 --> 0:45:23.396 people do for sure, and that's really good. But then 0:45:23.436 --> 0:45:25.796 he's like, the night after night after night after night 0:45:25.796 --> 0:45:27.996 after night after night, I'm touring and being auto, and 0:45:27.996 --> 0:45:29.636 then you get weird. You just get weird. 0:45:29.676 --> 0:45:31.636 It can How does it get weird? I heard you 0:45:31.676 --> 0:45:35.036 talk about that being on tour can get weird, and 0:45:35.116 --> 0:45:37.516 I'm extremely curious about what you mean about that. 0:45:37.996 --> 0:45:42.996 Honestly, I think it's just mostly exhaustion. But then I 0:45:43.036 --> 0:45:45.396 think it's I think it's the turning on and then 0:45:45.436 --> 0:45:49.836 turning off. It's like to turn for me to get 0:45:49.836 --> 0:45:52.236 into show mode to turn on to do that for 0:45:52.276 --> 0:45:56.116 like a two hour you know, give or take performance. 0:45:56.796 --> 0:45:59.076 Like it's not it doesn't come naturally. It's not like 0:45:59.276 --> 0:46:00.916 I'm like I can't wait to get out there. It's 0:46:00.956 --> 0:46:03.236 like it's bracing. It's I have to. I have to. 0:46:03.556 --> 0:46:05.436 It's on my mind all day. I have to. It's 0:46:05.476 --> 0:46:08.316 on my mind. It's like it's it's like every day 0:46:08.436 --> 0:46:11.276 is sort of like you're doing like a mini wedding. 0:46:11.316 --> 0:46:13.036 You gotta get ready, like to you know, just trying 0:46:13.036 --> 0:46:15.596 to like can I get ready for it? It's and you 0:46:15.596 --> 0:46:18.596 have to entertain. You have to. You don't know. You 0:46:18.636 --> 0:46:20.236 might wake up in a great mood, but then like 0:46:20.316 --> 0:46:23.636 something like you might by by seven thirty, you know, 0:46:23.796 --> 0:46:26.276 half an hour before you're supposed to go on stage something. 0:46:26.276 --> 0:46:29.196 You just might just be in the most miserable place 0:46:29.236 --> 0:46:30.076 for whatever reason. 0:46:30.196 --> 0:46:32.916 Just and you're the front man. So it's like all 0:46:32.996 --> 0:46:35.636 eyes are on you. You can't kind of just like 0:46:35.676 --> 0:46:37.076 play the back and play bass. 0:46:37.156 --> 0:46:37.396 Yep. 0:46:38.116 --> 0:46:39.876 Yeah, you know, it's like you and you give it. 0:46:39.956 --> 0:46:41.996 You're all you go super hard. 0:46:42.276 --> 0:46:44.116 Yeah, And I won't complain it. It's cool. I mean, 0:46:44.156 --> 0:46:47.836 like I I it's a funny thing. I'm often miserable 0:46:47.916 --> 0:46:51.676 in the spotlight, but I'm usually like like like no, no, no, 0:46:51.596 --> 0:46:54.196 over here. You know. It's like it's like, no, don't 0:46:54.196 --> 0:46:54.876 look at me, look at. 0:46:54.836 --> 0:46:55.836 Me, Like this is my best side. 0:46:55.996 --> 0:46:58.356 Yeah, I'm definitely don't look at me, look at me 0:46:58.476 --> 0:47:00.956 type of person with a yeah, and I don't have 0:47:00.996 --> 0:47:04.076 to get in a zone. And sometimes you drink too 0:47:04.196 --> 0:47:06.236 much and something like I like, we don't have any 0:47:06.276 --> 0:47:09.036 really terrible, terrible habits and but like, oh yeah, I've 0:47:09.756 --> 0:47:11.756 how many times have been like I know now I 0:47:11.836 --> 0:47:15.036 know what cocaine's for. You know. It's like, yeah, this 0:47:15.116 --> 0:47:17.196 is why people do cocaine because they got to go 0:47:17.276 --> 0:47:17.676 do that. 0:47:18.996 --> 0:47:20.276 Yeah, you can slip the switch. 0:47:20.476 --> 0:47:23.116 Yeah you can flip, but but I don't. I don't 0:47:23.796 --> 0:47:26.836 do that, but I do. You know. I have a 0:47:26.836 --> 0:47:30.076 few glasses of wine. Sometimes I won't, but those shows 0:47:30.116 --> 0:47:33.036 are always like really honestly that the shows I won't 0:47:33.036 --> 0:47:35.516 have any I was like, oh, those are if I 0:47:35.516 --> 0:47:37.596 don't drink. If I don't drink anything, then I'm in 0:47:37.636 --> 0:47:40.996 too inside my head. I think I think one or 0:47:41.036 --> 0:47:44.836 two glasses of wine is probably the best. Yeah. 0:47:44.996 --> 0:47:46.956 When I was talking to Aaron, he said something at 0:47:46.956 --> 0:47:49.836 some point about He's like, yeah, sometimes I think like 0:47:49.836 --> 0:47:51.716 I can't believe I'm forty six and I'm still in 0:47:51.756 --> 0:47:55.436 a band. That's so embarrassing. Yeah, do you have any 0:47:55.436 --> 0:47:56.596 similar feelings like that? 0:47:57.316 --> 0:48:00.276 Yeah, no, no, we always do. I mean, like we 0:48:00.356 --> 0:48:03.196 always listen we play songs or like, does this sound 0:48:03.236 --> 0:48:05.636 like we're all trying to like wear skinny jeans. You know, 0:48:05.756 --> 0:48:09.276 it's like and even though many of us still we're 0:48:09.276 --> 0:48:16.676 skinny jeans, but there is that. The whole pandering thing 0:48:16.956 --> 0:48:19.676 is is like we just can't do it, you know, 0:48:19.956 --> 0:48:23.076 like we cannot like I can't, I can only write 0:48:23.076 --> 0:48:26.716 a certain way, and I mean the answer questions like yeah, 0:48:26.956 --> 0:48:31.316 we're often like feeling like we don't want to seem 0:48:31.436 --> 0:48:36.436 like we're faking it, or if being on stage singing 0:48:36.436 --> 0:48:40.356 a song that you don't really kind of believe or 0:48:40.396 --> 0:48:45.036 don't or you know, doesn't feel good. So I think 0:48:45.076 --> 0:48:48.356 if we if we started making songs that we felt 0:48:48.396 --> 0:48:50.556 we're like, oh, well, we're kind of just putting out 0:48:50.596 --> 0:48:53.516 records to service a you know, to service something a 0:48:53.556 --> 0:48:58.156 fan base or whatever, like it definitely wouldn't be be enough. 0:48:58.516 --> 0:49:01.876 So obviously we're always asking us like are these songs 0:49:02.396 --> 0:49:04.916 worth putting out, is it? I know that like we 0:49:05.116 --> 0:49:07.756 it's time for another record or it's time for another tour, 0:49:08.236 --> 0:49:12.436 you know, according to the healthy economy of a of 0:49:12.476 --> 0:49:15.156 a functioning band and all that kind of stuff, you know, 0:49:15.916 --> 0:49:19.076 But that has never been the thing that's ever ever 0:49:19.156 --> 0:49:22.076 gotten us anywhere in terms of motivating us to make songs. 0:49:22.156 --> 0:49:25.156 And it's just the songs. It's like if a song 0:49:25.196 --> 0:49:27.396 we like it and we're like, I like that's a 0:49:27.596 --> 0:49:30.436 that's a good song. That's a beautiful song. That's why 0:49:30.476 --> 0:49:31.516 we're still a band. 0:49:31.756 --> 0:49:32.836 Like that's enough too. 0:49:33.156 --> 0:49:35.836 Yeah, I won't be able to be the kind of 0:49:36.356 --> 0:49:39.876 performer like Micjagger is, you know, because well, I mean 0:49:39.916 --> 0:49:42.436 and I think he's genuine, you know, through and through 0:49:42.476 --> 0:49:48.716 he is the you know. But I think my show 0:49:49.116 --> 0:49:54.316 and thing is like I think has to to age 0:49:54.596 --> 0:49:58.036 and evolve with me, mean meaning I used to lose 0:49:58.076 --> 0:50:00.396 my mind. I used to smash stuff. I used to like, 0:50:00.516 --> 0:50:03.436 you know, I would throw full bottles of wine thirty 0:50:03.436 --> 0:50:06.316 feet in the air, you know, and above the band, 0:50:06.356 --> 0:50:09.596 above me, and like and like in controlled way where 0:50:09.596 --> 0:50:11.796 I would like let it smash the pieces like right 0:50:11.876 --> 0:50:14.676 around me, you know, and like and I, you know, 0:50:14.716 --> 0:50:17.076 and going out into the crowd, and. 0:50:16.516 --> 0:50:19.196 And you go into the crowd. 0:50:19.396 --> 0:50:21.476 Yeah, and I go and I do love that. I 0:50:21.556 --> 0:50:23.236 might still do that, but if I if I feel 0:50:23.276 --> 0:50:25.556 like I'm doing that, because if it's part of the show, 0:50:25.676 --> 0:50:27.156 I want to kill myself. You know. 0:50:27.236 --> 0:50:30.036 It's like or because it's expected or it's your stick 0:50:30.156 --> 0:50:30.556 or something. 0:50:30.756 --> 0:50:33.636 Yeah, and and all that stuff kind of becomes a stick. 0:50:33.716 --> 0:50:36.396 And I think some of some of the self discussed 0:50:36.556 --> 0:50:38.356 was like I was self. I was discussed with my 0:50:38.396 --> 0:50:41.676 own shtick, you know, like writing about myself or like 0:50:41.716 --> 0:50:44.396 the idea of like doing that show and going out 0:50:44.396 --> 0:50:46.116 into the crowd, when I was like, that is not 0:50:46.636 --> 0:50:48.956 the person I am right now. I can't go sing 0:50:48.956 --> 0:50:52.156 these songs and go into a crowd and entertain people. 0:50:52.236 --> 0:50:54.756 I can't even I can barely. I can't watch TV, 0:50:54.996 --> 0:50:58.356 you know. I can bear. I'm I'm non verbal. I 0:50:58.396 --> 0:51:02.436 can't be an entertainer, you know. So like some show, 0:51:02.596 --> 0:51:06.516 I have to sort of just embrace whatever where whatever 0:51:06.556 --> 0:51:09.356 I am, you know. And so that's not always is 0:51:09.916 --> 0:51:11.876 a great show. I don't know, maybe it is. I 0:51:12.116 --> 0:51:16.316 I like watching uncomfortable performers do nothing, you know. I 0:51:16.356 --> 0:51:22.076 find that riveting. But yeah, so so there is there's 0:51:22.076 --> 0:51:23.996 a there is a there is a little bit of 0:51:24.036 --> 0:51:27.036 that of like if it feels like we're going through 0:51:27.036 --> 0:51:31.156 the motions and and trying to, you know, put on 0:51:31.196 --> 0:51:33.036 the show. If it feels like you know, Phantom of 0:51:33.076 --> 0:51:38.116 the Opera, you know that after a while, that's it's 0:51:38.116 --> 0:51:39.476 just it's just it's a bummer. 0:51:39.836 --> 0:51:41.876 I know that female artists have to deal with this 0:51:41.956 --> 0:51:44.436 a lot. But when you've gone out into the crowd 0:51:44.556 --> 0:51:48.116 like that, has anything sketchy ever happened to you? 0:51:48.236 --> 0:51:51.876 Like, yeah, it gets weird, and like it gets it 0:51:51.916 --> 0:51:53.756 gets weird out there. That's why I'm like, I don't 0:51:53.756 --> 0:51:56.356 know if I like doing this anymore. It mostly it's 0:51:56.436 --> 0:51:58.956 almost all love and people just like that's the other thing. 0:51:58.956 --> 0:52:02.636 It's like it's people just crushed together and sing and 0:52:02.636 --> 0:52:04.916 and you're getting in your singing their hearts out, and 0:52:04.996 --> 0:52:08.636 it's people having an incredible moment and I am too. 0:52:08.876 --> 0:52:12.076 But then sometimes but but it gets scary. You know, 0:52:12.116 --> 0:52:14.116 it gets scary when when I'm just like that many 0:52:14.156 --> 0:52:17.156 bodies and the crush of people, so that and then 0:52:17.316 --> 0:52:18.756 obviously there's a lot of people that just want to 0:52:18.796 --> 0:52:20.716 hang on you and just like want to like you 0:52:20.916 --> 0:52:23.436 want to spend the like spend the whole time with you, 0:52:23.516 --> 0:52:24.796 and like I was like, you know what this is. 0:52:24.876 --> 0:52:27.396 I'm doing this kind of for me and for like 0:52:27.476 --> 0:52:29.356 lots of people. It's not just for you to hang 0:52:29.396 --> 0:52:31.196 on me and like, you know, follow me. I don't 0:52:31.236 --> 0:52:33.956 like when people like follow me the whole time and 0:52:33.956 --> 0:52:36.716 and try to like you know, and people often try 0:52:36.756 --> 0:52:39.756 to pick me up because and I never let that. 0:52:39.876 --> 0:52:44.556 I don't crowdsurfing is I is not. I hate it. 0:52:44.556 --> 0:52:46.556 It's because they can drop you. You can just fall 0:52:46.596 --> 0:52:47.676 into all that it. 0:52:47.796 --> 0:52:51.476 Is always it just looks so stupid to me when 0:52:51.476 --> 0:52:53.516 you're up there trying to sing and you're being carried. 0:52:53.596 --> 0:52:54.796 I mean I know, I mean I've done it a 0:52:54.836 --> 0:52:57.196 bunch of times. It is like a it's a bucket list, 0:52:57.236 --> 0:52:59.676 you got to do it. You know, you're just feeling 0:52:59.996 --> 0:53:03.036 like such an idiot. I don't know. I mean certain bands, 0:53:03.156 --> 0:53:05.036 if I were Blake, wedd eighty two or whatever, you 0:53:05.236 --> 0:53:08.876 hell yeah, but not I can't. I just it's not 0:53:09.156 --> 0:53:11.476 it just doesn't feel right. But anyways, like all that 0:53:11.556 --> 0:53:14.236 kind of stuff is like you just have to constantly 0:53:14.916 --> 0:53:17.236 try to stay yourself and that changes. That's the thing. 0:53:17.236 --> 0:53:19.636 It changes. If you're trying to stay true to who 0:53:19.676 --> 0:53:22.196 you were when you were you know, thirty or twenty 0:53:22.196 --> 0:53:24.996 five or nineteen or whatever, you're kind of gonna look 0:53:25.676 --> 0:53:28.316 kind of silly. You know. Then again, well I even know, 0:53:28.796 --> 0:53:31.516 well I even know you know that I look silly. 0:53:31.596 --> 0:53:34.876 I know, right, probably not. I mean, well, your daughter 0:53:34.916 --> 0:53:36.676 will tell you that. 0:53:37.476 --> 0:53:40.436 I'm praying she does. So far, so far, she's been 0:53:40.476 --> 0:53:43.436 pretty kind. She's like, I mean she has seen some 0:53:43.516 --> 0:53:46.636 videos that we've attempted to make some videos, and she's 0:53:46.676 --> 0:53:51.316 like she's like, really, yeah, thing like that, she says. 0:53:51.356 --> 0:53:52.956 She's like, you look like you're trying to be all that. 0:53:53.236 --> 0:53:55.796 You know. It's like yeah, she's like, it ruins this 0:53:55.916 --> 0:53:58.036 fair criticiz ruined. She's like, it kind of ruins the 0:53:58.076 --> 0:53:59.836 song for me. I was like, uh, you got to 0:53:59.876 --> 0:54:03.396 kill that video, you know. I know it's good. Thank God, 0:54:03.796 --> 0:54:04.516 thank God for her. 0:54:05.276 --> 0:54:08.316 How do you feel about the sad Dad music label? 0:54:09.116 --> 0:54:09.956 Does that sit with you? 0:54:10.676 --> 0:54:15.836 I don't care. I mean, it's it's appropriate. I cannot 0:54:16.396 --> 0:54:22.876 I mean like yeah, it definitely like it's I totally 0:54:22.916 --> 0:54:27.676 understand it, and I think I I think I embrace it. Yeah, yeah, 0:54:28.076 --> 0:54:31.636 it feels fine. I mean, I I it's not it's 0:54:31.676 --> 0:54:35.476 not how I would define myself, you know, entirely. But yeah, 0:54:35.756 --> 0:54:38.116 that's a little part of me. And I say that's 0:54:38.156 --> 0:54:40.676 a little part of of everybody. I think it's something. 0:54:40.676 --> 0:54:43.876 I think. The funny thing is like like my daughter, 0:54:43.956 --> 0:54:46.916 I think like loves the sad dads. Like we've been 0:54:47.156 --> 0:54:49.236 we saw hoodies that say sad Dad's on it. It's 0:54:49.236 --> 0:54:51.556 like her, you know, she's into it. She loves like 0:54:51.556 --> 0:54:53.916 like it's cool, you know. And for some reason, I 0:54:53.916 --> 0:54:55.676 think it's cool to be a sad dad. But but 0:54:55.716 --> 0:54:58.436 I but I also I can see why why other 0:54:58.516 --> 0:55:02.236 artists that get the sad and mostly it's young women 0:55:02.356 --> 0:55:05.316 get the sort of sort of you know, the sad 0:55:05.916 --> 0:55:10.116 label and how that can be infuriating. And but for me, 0:55:10.836 --> 0:55:16.476 like I've earned it. Yeah, I can't mat, I cannot 0:55:16.596 --> 0:55:17.156 say that that. 0:55:17.076 --> 0:55:20.156 Does not ship well Pitchfork. I read that Pitchfork wrote 0:55:20.636 --> 0:55:23.076 the national art dad rock as much as their men's 0:55:23.156 --> 0:55:24.116 magazine Rock. 0:55:24.916 --> 0:55:28.116 That's kind of more sleek. No, that one's hurtful. 0:55:28.236 --> 0:55:31.636 That's hurtful. I feel like that's sleek. That's like GQ rock. 0:55:32.836 --> 0:55:36.236 I think like Maxim when you say men's magazines, I 0:55:36.716 --> 0:55:40.916 think it like details and yeah, I don't think in 0:55:40.996 --> 0:55:43.956 GQ is I guess yeah, GQ reck. I don't think 0:55:43.956 --> 0:55:46.756 we're GQ rack either. That'd be cool. I wish we 0:55:46.756 --> 0:55:49.196 were GQ rack. I am. I am doing an interview 0:55:49.196 --> 0:55:50.316 with GQ I think soon. 0:55:50.996 --> 0:55:53.076 Have you done many interviews yet for this album? 0:55:53.436 --> 0:55:56.476 No, not that many. I'm doing a lot less. I'm 0:55:56.516 --> 0:56:02.956 doing a lot less than usual. Just yeah. A lot 0:56:02.996 --> 0:56:05.796 of it is because it's like, eh, the stuff on 0:56:05.836 --> 0:56:08.516 this record is a little bit harder to talk about. 0:56:08.756 --> 0:56:12.236 I think maybe I kind of was like, it's kind 0:56:12.236 --> 0:56:14.956 of all they are on the record, you know, so 0:56:14.956 --> 0:56:18.156 so like getting into it a little bit, digging further 0:56:18.236 --> 0:56:20.876 into it is it feels a little icky. But I 0:56:20.916 --> 0:56:22.516 know that's I know that's part of it, and I'm 0:56:22.516 --> 0:56:25.436 happy to do and so but this has been delightful 0:56:25.436 --> 0:56:26.076 that it isn't that. 0:56:26.316 --> 0:56:28.516 Yeah, I appreciate so much you taking the time and 0:56:28.596 --> 0:56:32.556 being so thoughtful and best wishes with the album. It's awesome, 0:56:33.196 --> 0:56:36.636 thank you, And sounds like you have another album already ready. 0:56:36.876 --> 0:56:40.756 Maybe we always say that nonetheless, it's gonna be it's 0:56:40.796 --> 0:56:44.156 gotta be great. So if it's not. It'll take it then. 0:56:44.156 --> 0:56:46.196 It might take some time, but thanks for doing this. This 0:56:46.236 --> 0:56:46.756 seems cool. 0:56:49.796 --> 0:56:53.116 Thanks to Matt Berninger for breaking down his songwriting process 0:56:53.156 --> 0:56:56.236 with Lea. You can hear all of our favorite national 0:56:56.316 --> 0:57:00.396 songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. 0:57:00.796 --> 0:57:04.316 You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 0:57:04.356 --> 0:57:07.116 Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, 0:57:07.476 --> 0:57:11.756 Ben Holliday, and Eric's Antler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. 0:57:12.316 --> 0:57:15.476 Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if 0:57:15.476 --> 0:57:17.636 you like the show, please remember to share, rate and 0:57:17.676 --> 0:57:20.756 review us on your podcast. App Our theme musics by 0:57:20.796 --> 0:57:27.396 Kenny Beats I'm justin Richman. Consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 0:57:27.996 --> 0:57:31.596 Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 0:57:31.676 --> 0:57:34.956 an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. 0:57:35.356 --> 0:57:38.796 Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if 0:57:38.836 --> 0:57:40.996 you like the show, please remember to share, rate and 0:57:41.036 --> 0:57:44.116 review us on your podcast. App Our theme music expY 0:57:44.156 --> 0:57:46.276 Kenny Beats I'm justin Richmond