1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:22,916 Speaker 2: Today we have part two of our run of interviews 3 00:00:22,956 --> 00:00:26,356 Speaker 2: with The National and celebration of their new album First 4 00:00:26,396 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 2: two pages of Frankenstein. Last week, Broken Record producer Leah 5 00:00:31,116 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 2: Rose talked to guitarist and composer Aaron Destner about The 6 00:00:34,916 --> 00:00:40,476 Speaker 2: National's interpersonal dynamics. Today, Leah picks up that conversation with 7 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:44,796 Speaker 2: the band's lead singer, Matt Buringer. Matt, whose fear and 8 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 2: anxieties are often on full display in this songwriting, talks 9 00:00:48,636 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 2: about overcoming a debilitating bout of depression in the period 10 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 2: before he started writing songs for the new album. He 11 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:58,036 Speaker 2: also explains how the combination of weed and iced tea 12 00:00:58,276 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 2: helped him spark his creativity and why he hopes his 13 00:01:01,836 --> 00:01:10,076 Speaker 2: songwriting impresses Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. Is Broken Record 14 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 2: liner notes for the Digital Age. 15 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 1: I'm justin Ritchman. 16 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 2: Here's Lea Rose with Matt Runninger. 17 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:21,316 Speaker 3: I saw a video that you recorded. I guess it 18 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 3: was like two years ago for Amiba Records, and you 19 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:31,876 Speaker 3: were picking through your favorite records and I started to 20 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 3: sort of like listen to some of the to the 21 00:01:34,276 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 3: records that you were showing, and it really helped me 22 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 3: understand you as an artist and as a singer, and 23 00:01:40,916 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 3: so I wanted to hear you just talk about some 24 00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:48,036 Speaker 3: of these artists and see how specifically maybe their style 25 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 3: helped you develop your own style. 26 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 1: Yeah. Cool, I don't remember what I picked. 27 00:01:53,276 --> 00:01:56,276 Speaker 3: So yeah, I figure then maybe the list has changed 28 00:01:56,316 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 3: at this point. 29 00:01:56,916 --> 00:01:59,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, but maybe I'll be I'll disown this whole list, 30 00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:00,156 Speaker 1: but let's see. 31 00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:03,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, right, But the first artist I wanted 32 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:04,956 Speaker 3: to ask you about was Tom Waits. 33 00:02:05,076 --> 00:02:05,396 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 34 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 3: When did you start listening to Tom Waits? 35 00:02:09,156 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 1: I think I freshman year at college, so that was 36 00:02:12,436 --> 00:02:15,276 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. I went to a couple of years at 37 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 1: Miami University of Cincinnati, so I was like, it was 38 00:02:18,756 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: my first year of college, so this is the first 39 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:23,156 Speaker 1: time I lived alone. And that's when I remember hearing 40 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: Ah God. I think it was it was a compilation 41 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,796 Speaker 1: I heard him on first, and I think it was 42 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 1: the song Big Black Mariah, and I don't remember what 43 00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 1: compilation it was on, and I fell in love of 44 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 1: that song, and I went out and tried and wanted 45 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 1: to buy check out some records, but I remember all 46 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:47,316 Speaker 1: I could find was this one record, his early Year's 47 00:02:47,396 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 1: record and like a guy called Tom Waits and said 48 00:02:50,156 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: early years, and then there's this skinny white guy on 49 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:54,156 Speaker 1: the cover. I was like, this isn't This isn't the 50 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 1: person from who's singing Big Black Mariah on the thing. 51 00:02:57,036 --> 00:02:58,996 Speaker 1: I had heard this has got to be somebody else, 52 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 1: but I bought it anyway, and it was so I 53 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:04,116 Speaker 1: think I first got into his early years and then 54 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 1: connected all the dots to like Bone Machine, and that 55 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: was right right before Bone Machine came out. I feel 56 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:12,476 Speaker 1: like that's when I can't remember exactly what all, but 57 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:16,596 Speaker 1: it was the fun journey like learning hearing like you know, 58 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:21,796 Speaker 1: semi you know, contemporary or or whatever nineties Tom Waits 59 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 1: and then going back and then then starting with his 60 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 1: really early like those real acoustic demos and piano demos 61 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:30,836 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that was 62 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 1: a big long time all through college, it feels like. 63 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:36,116 Speaker 1: And then and then I would come back to him 64 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: and in different records I would I would go into 65 00:03:39,276 --> 00:03:42,716 Speaker 1: deep Dives and at different times and rain Dogs. 66 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 3: Yeah that was the one that you picked out for 67 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 3: the semi bit. 68 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I also also remember another Okay, 69 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 1: this is how stupid I was with music. And I 70 00:03:52,036 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: didn't didn't really do very deep at dives. I thought 71 00:03:56,316 --> 00:03:59,996 Speaker 1: that was him on the cover forever, right and and 72 00:03:59,996 --> 00:04:02,436 Speaker 1: and I mean and I'd seen pictures of him and see, 73 00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: but for some reason, my brain made them the same, 74 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:09,716 Speaker 1: the same face, the same person. But yeah, I haven't tattoo. 75 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:15,036 Speaker 1: That says Martha from his song Martha and which I 76 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 1: remember listening to and crying too after breaking up with 77 00:04:20,116 --> 00:04:22,956 Speaker 1: my first college girlfriend or being broke up broken up 78 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:25,116 Speaker 1: with it was mutual. I don't remember. 79 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 3: That. 80 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: I was driving back to Cincinnati from Oxford, Ohio and 81 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:33,876 Speaker 1: realizing that was finally over, and then I transferred to 82 00:04:33,876 --> 00:04:36,076 Speaker 1: a new school anyway. Yeah, so Tom Waits was like 83 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:38,676 Speaker 1: right there and some of the most intense you know, 84 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:42,316 Speaker 1: early early relationships, but then always like, you know, my 85 00:04:42,556 --> 00:04:45,636 Speaker 1: Karna and I like just went through big deep Tom 86 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:49,236 Speaker 1: Waits dives you know, over different times. And yeah, just 87 00:04:49,236 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 1: just this combination of goofiness and heartbreak and darkness, you know, 88 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 1: and and spookiness. There's just something all about you know. 89 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:01,196 Speaker 1: And he Nick Cave's another one who's who's like in 90 00:05:01,236 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: that sort of world, like the just the the the 91 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 1: alchemy of sincerity and silliness you know, that's so magical. 92 00:05:10,236 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 3: Sometimes do you hear them in your own performance when 93 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:15,356 Speaker 3: when you sing like. 94 00:05:15,836 --> 00:05:19,996 Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure, I mean I don't. I'm sure other 95 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:22,236 Speaker 1: people do more than I do. You know, you know 96 00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:23,996 Speaker 1: I can't. I don't know what I look like in 97 00:05:24,036 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 1: the mirror, you know everybody else. That's one of those things. 98 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 1: But uh, but the other thing about what Tom Waits 99 00:05:29,756 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 1: is I was also really always really taken with and 100 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 1: kind of inspired by his relationship with his wife Kathleen 101 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 1: Brennan and how they write together and there you know, 102 00:05:40,516 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: one of one of my favorite songs of his all 103 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:47,396 Speaker 1: time is called Johnsburg, Illinois, and it's just a little 104 00:05:47,476 --> 00:05:49,676 Speaker 1: portrait of a song about where she's from, you know, 105 00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:51,756 Speaker 1: and just about about meeting her. And it's like the 106 00:05:52,596 --> 00:05:57,436 Speaker 1: most delicate, little, sweet, little love song. And yeah, so 107 00:05:57,556 --> 00:06:00,876 Speaker 1: I think that was something I always found so romantic 108 00:06:00,916 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 1: and so cool that here's this guy who can write 109 00:06:03,676 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 1: all these songs about heartbreak and all this stuff, but 110 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 1: then also write them with his the one he loves, 111 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:11,956 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's really cool. 112 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:16,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful. If you don't know a band, you 113 00:06:16,236 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 3: don't know a singer, you don't know a song. How 114 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 3: much patience do you have to sort of discover something new. 115 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 1: I'd like to think I have some, like like some patients, 116 00:06:29,036 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 1: But that's a good question, because I do struggle a lot. 117 00:06:34,276 --> 00:06:37,036 Speaker 1: I think with like even even like the playlist set 118 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: that I'm on, I mean, I just like I have 119 00:06:40,396 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 1: a harder time. I mean, I don't know. I've was 120 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:44,196 Speaker 1: always a bit of a snob. And that's the thing 121 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:46,836 Speaker 1: about music. It's like sports, so it's like, like you 122 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:48,676 Speaker 1: hate most stuff, you know, you want to talk about 123 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 1: how much it's like with your friends, like, oh, you know, 124 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 1: and you define yourself by everything you hate, you know, 125 00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:58,036 Speaker 1: or you don't get. And I was definitely that contrary, 126 00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 1: and you know I was. I mean, the Smith's were 127 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:03,116 Speaker 1: a band I love so much, just because none of 128 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 1: my other friends had ever heard of them, and the 129 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,076 Speaker 1: boy with the thorn on his side was was definitely me, 130 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:10,916 Speaker 1: you know. And so still I have a little bit 131 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:13,436 Speaker 1: of that where I'm like, like, what, I don't get it, 132 00:07:13,476 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 1: you know, But I realize I'm totally wrong most of 133 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 1: the time, and then and I'll get used to it 134 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 1: and I'll learn things about it. So it's hard to 135 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: say I might have been more of a snob when 136 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:25,996 Speaker 1: I was, you know, in college than I am now. 137 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:30,276 Speaker 1: And and now I I actually really have a fun 138 00:07:30,356 --> 00:07:34,356 Speaker 1: time studying like stuff I don't listen to at all. 139 00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: But I'm like, like I did a recent sort of 140 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 1: thing of just like what's you know, all these different 141 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 1: artists their number one song and trying to figure out 142 00:07:41,356 --> 00:07:43,716 Speaker 1: what the tempo of their number one song was. You know, 143 00:07:44,236 --> 00:07:46,276 Speaker 1: In the first three artists I looked at, it was 144 00:07:46,316 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 1: like one eighteen, right, So. 145 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:50,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard like one twenty is kind of like 146 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:53,236 Speaker 3: is that for a pop record? That might be kind 147 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 3: of like the. 148 00:07:54,196 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: I know, Well, I'm like I'm like I'm looking it 149 00:07:57,116 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 1: up and then and I'm like trying to like, well, 150 00:07:58,836 --> 00:08:01,596 Speaker 1: what is it? What are people like, you know, what 151 00:08:01,716 --> 00:08:04,636 Speaker 1: is this the pop world? Like? What are these because 152 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:07,076 Speaker 1: every wee talked about the formula, but then I did. 153 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: I did, But then it was it was a few 154 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: exercise because then I listened to a batch of other 155 00:08:11,116 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 1: and suddenly I found a bunch that were, you know, 156 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 1: like around one fifty, and then I've found a bunch 157 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:20,156 Speaker 1: that are like like great songs that are around ninety, 158 00:08:20,236 --> 00:08:22,196 Speaker 1: you know. And then but then it's also like it's 159 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:23,916 Speaker 1: all it's all just in the groove and how you 160 00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:26,796 Speaker 1: subdivide it, and it's like something that's like ninety is 161 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:29,436 Speaker 1: also one eighty, you know, and depending on how you 162 00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: deliver it. And then so I kind of it didn't 163 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: lead me anywhere, but it was really it was kind 164 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 1: of fun to dig into it. There's also I read 165 00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 1: about all this stuff and how it's slowing down pop music. 166 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: Is the average BPM used to be like in the 167 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:45,196 Speaker 1: one forties and now it's down to somebody's saying it's 168 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:48,156 Speaker 1: like down to like one one o eight is an average. 169 00:08:48,956 --> 00:08:50,796 Speaker 3: Oh it's funny. I mean I could definitely see that 170 00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:53,276 Speaker 3: with hip hop because hip hop has like gotten way 171 00:08:53,436 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 3: like more like slow in syrupy, but but one one 172 00:08:57,396 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 3: forty is super fast. 173 00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, But the truth is it doesn't actually it doesn't 174 00:09:02,756 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 1: matter at all because you could take any BPM and 175 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:08,676 Speaker 1: subdivide it in a way and put a swing to it, 176 00:09:08,716 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 1: and how you like, all of a sudden, its momentum 177 00:09:11,356 --> 00:09:15,156 Speaker 1: goes from sluggish to like it just it's like mixing paint. 178 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:17,276 Speaker 1: You know. It's like it's like which is fun to 179 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: you know, It's it's like there's not a formula. There's 180 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 1: not like a there's not a formula for a good painting. 181 00:09:22,236 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 1: You know. It's just so. 182 00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 3: And also it seems like if you started with thinking 183 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 3: about a formula, you're not going to end up in 184 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:32,596 Speaker 3: a good place. No, But it's because you're thinking more 185 00:09:32,636 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 3: about like what the audience is going to like, rather 186 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 3: than what you're going to put forth. 187 00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:42,236 Speaker 1: Right, I'd love to do Like lately, just going in 188 00:09:42,316 --> 00:09:45,076 Speaker 1: with a friend and and and and just been like, well, 189 00:09:45,116 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: just like pick any song and just kind of like, 190 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 1: you know, we picked by your Side by Shah Day 191 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 1: not long ago, and like and just like what is it? 192 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 1: What a good song? Like why like why is it 193 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 1: so much better than all other songs at that same 194 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 1: tempo with the same chorus it gets. 195 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 3: It's her voice delivers, Yeah. 196 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:06,276 Speaker 1: It's it's it's impossible to totally obviously it's her, you know, 197 00:10:06,436 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, but why is that song of 198 00:10:08,756 --> 00:10:13,236 Speaker 1: her stand out so much from even her catalog? You know, 199 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: it's like, well, there's so many people that have one 200 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 1: song that just like is ten times bigger than the 201 00:10:19,636 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 1: rest of their entire catalog, or you know, what is it? 202 00:10:22,676 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: What is it about that one that thing. It is fun. 203 00:10:25,516 --> 00:10:28,316 Speaker 1: It's just fun to like kind of try to see 204 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:31,396 Speaker 1: if you can decipher magic. You know, if you can, 205 00:10:31,436 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 1: if you can figure it out. But you can't. You 206 00:10:34,076 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: just you can't. I mean, but but it is everything 207 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:39,996 Speaker 1: you've you're listening to every song we that is like 208 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 1: was them trying something, probably listening to a bunch of 209 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 1: other things and trying to put put together common to 210 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 1: the air combination, and occasionally the alchemy turns. It's it's 211 00:10:49,876 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 1: black magic. It totally as you still know, you know. 212 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:55,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about it from the perspective of 213 00:10:55,356 --> 00:10:57,876 Speaker 3: a listener, like if I sit down and listen to 214 00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 3: your new album, you sort of take for granted that, 215 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 3: like somebody actually created this from silence. Sometimes you just 216 00:11:06,516 --> 00:11:09,876 Speaker 3: assume like things always existed, like uh huh, there was 217 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 3: a time when hey, Jude didn't exist, Like somebody wrote 218 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 3: that and made that music. 219 00:11:15,556 --> 00:11:18,036 Speaker 1: My daughter and I were like driving around, we just 220 00:11:18,156 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 1: drive around for hours just listening to songs, and she's 221 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:23,676 Speaker 1: she's in that she's in that phase where she's just 222 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: like really like songs are magic to her. Now. I say, 223 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's blooming. And she's she's fourteen, and 224 00:11:30,716 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 1: and so we were listening to the Wise Blood album 225 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 1: a lot. We were listening to and she's learning that 226 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:37,516 Speaker 1: on guitar. But then we were like started listening to 227 00:11:37,516 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: some Beatles and stuff and just like and hey, Jude, 228 00:11:40,116 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: it's just like, oh my god, it starts out one 229 00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: way and then at the end he's just like he's 230 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:46,836 Speaker 1: just a nut job at the end, just like riffing 231 00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 1: and just like, dude, Yeah, it's almost ridiculous at the end. 232 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:56,876 Speaker 1: And yeah, but the idea that like it started from 233 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,036 Speaker 1: nothing and then it's there, you know, and. 234 00:11:58,956 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 3: Like there was a time when that song did not exist. 235 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 1: It's fun, it's funny, it's crazy totally. 236 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 3: So I'm just curious with the national like with making 237 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:09,436 Speaker 3: this new album, Like it sounds like before or you 238 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 3: started recording it, you know, maybe you were going through 239 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 3: some sort of like writer's block. That's that's the story 240 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 3: that I'm hearing. Yeah, and that was somehow unlocked by 241 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:21,796 Speaker 3: you reading Frankenstein. Is that a true story? 242 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: It is true. I was in a really long writer's block, 243 00:12:26,196 --> 00:12:28,116 Speaker 1: like I'd never been. It was it was a I 244 00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 1: couldn't write. I mean, I don't know to I mean, 245 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 1: it was it was caused by whatever, like self loathing 246 00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 1: and depression and all that stuff I put up. Yeah, 247 00:12:36,396 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: I went into a phase where I just couldn't. I 248 00:12:37,876 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: just like I didn't want to write. I was sick 249 00:12:39,836 --> 00:12:43,756 Speaker 1: of writing about myself all that stuff. And I won't 250 00:12:43,796 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 1: say there was any one thing that unlocked it. It 251 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 1: was mostly just kind of reconnecting with the band and 252 00:12:49,516 --> 00:12:51,516 Speaker 1: and just kind of pushing through it in time and 253 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 1: then and it started slowly coming back. But when it 254 00:12:54,076 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 1: when it started coming back, one song that I was 255 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:00,636 Speaker 1: just like, the music came. It was new music that 256 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: had just been sent and I was kind of like, okay, 257 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 1: Like I I just wanted to fresh, fresh words in 258 00:13:07,356 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 1: my head. So sometimes I'll just go and grab literally 259 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 1: anything a magazine and anything and just like look at word, 260 00:13:15,196 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 1: just skim it and just like until a word or something, 261 00:13:17,236 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: just like whatever. It's just it's trying to just like 262 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 1: shake them, shake the trees and see if an animal 263 00:13:23,036 --> 00:13:26,836 Speaker 1: falls out right. And so, yeah, Franken Sang was the 264 00:13:26,836 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 1: book I just randomly picked. And the words like tranquilize 265 00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: an ocean and this whole stuff about like the poles. 266 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 1: It all starts out in the Arctic and so I 267 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: started kind of just writing some imagery about that, but 268 00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:42,596 Speaker 1: it was all I think it was imagery that I 269 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:44,316 Speaker 1: was I was kind of using that imagery to write 270 00:13:44,316 --> 00:13:47,276 Speaker 1: about my brain and write about my feeling lost and 271 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 1: frozen and disconnected. And so the song is your mind 272 00:13:52,436 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: is not your friend. But that phrase was just something 273 00:13:55,396 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 1: that my wife Grin had been had been saying, he 274 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:01,316 Speaker 1: had been echoing to me over the past year when 275 00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: I was in this phase, and I just like thought, 276 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:04,756 Speaker 1: like you know, I was, I was like, I don't 277 00:14:04,756 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 1: know if I can ever do it. I don't like, 278 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can write anymore. I don't 279 00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 1: know if I can go on stage anymore. I don't 280 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:13,276 Speaker 1: know if I can tour anymore. I don't know if 281 00:14:13,276 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 1: I can do any of it anymore. I was just 282 00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:19,236 Speaker 1: I was feeling paralyzed by not just the writer's block, 283 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: but all of it, you know, just like everything was 284 00:14:21,116 --> 00:14:23,396 Speaker 1: like I didn't there was a phase I didn't want 285 00:14:23,436 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 1: to write. I didn't want to I didn't want to 286 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 1: listen to anything, you know, I couldn't listen to anything. 287 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:31,276 Speaker 1: But when I started to break through a little bit 288 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:33,436 Speaker 1: and those guys started sending me a bunch of news 289 00:14:33,476 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: like like, oh, he's working again. The rest of the 290 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:38,036 Speaker 1: band started like hurry up, like like send him new stuff. 291 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 1: He's he's plugged in again. And and and the music 292 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:43,316 Speaker 1: for your mind is that your Friend was one of 293 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: those kind of new ones that came and and I 294 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 1: wrote it really fast. Yeah, and it was triggered. But 295 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: I can't remember which song of the of the record 296 00:14:51,756 --> 00:14:54,036 Speaker 1: I know. I know Once upon a pool Side was 297 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 1: one of them that that was like, okay, finally a 298 00:14:56,916 --> 00:14:58,356 Speaker 1: song came. And I think it was when I just 299 00:14:58,396 --> 00:15:01,596 Speaker 1: started writing directly about the things I was, you know, 300 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: my fears and everything. 301 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:06,556 Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm curious what your wife says when you're in 302 00:15:06,596 --> 00:15:08,596 Speaker 3: that place when she's trying to encourage you and you 303 00:15:08,596 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 3: tell her like I can't go back on stage, I 304 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 3: can't write. This might be the end of it. 305 00:15:13,276 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 1: She was always like, that's totally fine. That is totally fine, 306 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, thank god, you know, 307 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:20,076 Speaker 1: And I was like, it's not totally fine. You don't 308 00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 1: understand how not fine that is. It won't be good 309 00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: for me, it won't be good for anybody. It's bad. 310 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 1: It's that And she's like nobody wants and the band 311 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 1: was like that too. Everybody's like there's I was. I 312 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:34,556 Speaker 1: wasn't getting any pressure from anybody except for myself, So. 313 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 3: You didn't feel like let off the hook, like, okay, 314 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 3: cool now I can just like. 315 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: No, I was let off the hook. I've always been 316 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: let off the like like nobody none of us will 317 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 1: ever Nobody in the band or I think none of 318 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: our partners or whatever, nobody's got anybody on a hook. 319 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: We all we all do this because we want to 320 00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: do it. And yeah, when I when I couldn't do 321 00:15:56,956 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 1: it, it wasn't that I didn't want I wanted to be 322 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,036 Speaker 1: able to do it. I wanted to want to do it. 323 00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:05,316 Speaker 1: I really wanted to want to do it, but I 324 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 1: I couldn't and I couldn't. The idea of like getting 325 00:16:07,916 --> 00:16:11,836 Speaker 1: on stage made me you know almost you know, sick, 326 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:14,236 Speaker 1: you know, like like just just so much anxiety that, yeah, 327 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:16,756 Speaker 1: walk in even go to the airport, you know, into 328 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:18,876 Speaker 1: the face. I just like it wasn't like flying. I 329 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: was just like did like I did not want to go. 330 00:16:21,316 --> 00:16:22,836 Speaker 1: I did not want to go out into the world 331 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: or be you know, I wanted to stay unplugged or 332 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:29,436 Speaker 1: but I couldn't. You know so so. And then I 333 00:16:29,476 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 1: was terrified that ship it's been it's been unplugged for 334 00:16:31,996 --> 00:16:34,716 Speaker 1: so long, and I and it's the machine has stopped 335 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:36,316 Speaker 1: for so long. I don't know if it's ever going 336 00:16:36,396 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: to start again. And then it slowly started. 337 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 3: How did you feel when it started? Were you exhilarated? 338 00:16:42,156 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 3: Did it feel like those feelings were kind of melting away? 339 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 1: It was slow. It was a slow It wasn't. There 340 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: were there were a couple of times. I mean, I 341 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 1: think once upon a pool side the guy in the 342 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:56,876 Speaker 1: band were like nice one, you know, like like you're 343 00:16:56,916 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 1: like like that when you know, like nobody wanted nobody 344 00:17:00,516 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 1: wanted to make too much of a deal about it. 345 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 1: When I started to write again, and and and and 346 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 1: it did, it didn't. It wasn't like als in one day, 347 00:17:08,476 --> 00:17:11,676 Speaker 1: I woke up and I was like, you know, on fire. 348 00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:14,916 Speaker 1: It was. It was, yeah, it was very much, you know, 349 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:19,356 Speaker 1: starting the fire back from rubbing sticks together. But eventually 350 00:17:19,676 --> 00:17:22,516 Speaker 1: eventually it warmed up, and you know, yeah, and then 351 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:24,076 Speaker 1: and then and then then I was writing a lot, 352 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:27,436 Speaker 1: and then we were on tour. I was Eucalyptus was 353 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:30,396 Speaker 1: written really fast, and new Order T shirt was written 354 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 1: really fast, and the outcott was written really fast, and 355 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 1: half the songs were written quickly, and then the other 356 00:17:37,956 --> 00:17:42,636 Speaker 1: half you know, started and then froze and then you know, 357 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:44,836 Speaker 1: morphed into something later. Yeah. 358 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:48,636 Speaker 3: Okay, so you didn't go back into the sunken place 359 00:17:48,676 --> 00:17:51,236 Speaker 3: at a certain point where you out like once the 360 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 3: song started to come. 361 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:55,276 Speaker 1: No, but I got but but I but I got 362 00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: above it enough to sort of like to be able 363 00:17:57,836 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 1: to breathe. So that like so that when I sink 364 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: back down, know that I you know, so, so I'm 365 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:06,316 Speaker 1: not in the lowest part of it, you know, but 366 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: I'm but I'm definitely not. I'm definitely aware that it's 367 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 1: it's it's right there, you know, the water is the 368 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: water is always right about here, and sometimes you'll find 369 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:18,636 Speaker 1: yourself and you're like it and I just know, I 370 00:18:18,716 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 1: know where I am. So I'm just more aware of 371 00:18:21,876 --> 00:18:24,276 Speaker 1: the of the when it gets too deep to stand, 372 00:18:24,396 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: you know, and just to back away a little bit. 373 00:18:26,836 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: You know, whatever that is. It's just your brain, it's 374 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:30,316 Speaker 1: just your totally you know. 375 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:35,436 Speaker 3: Does having the songs and having actual tangible creative output, 376 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:38,396 Speaker 3: does that sort of put any gas in your tank? 377 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, yeah, I mean the the thing that like 378 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 1: when I when I feel like, oh there's I'm onto something. 379 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 1: This could be this could be great, this could be 380 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 1: a beautiful song. And you always like that that that 381 00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:52,636 Speaker 1: first theo's first feelings where you just get get a 382 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,956 Speaker 1: even just a melody. Or I mean, there's those guys 383 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:58,156 Speaker 1: send me lots and lots of stuff. So I'm listening 384 00:18:58,196 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: to a lot of music. They're like, if I could 385 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:02,396 Speaker 1: only do something, this could be incredible. But a lot 386 00:19:02,436 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 1: of times I like, I just can't. And or I 387 00:19:05,196 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 1: every time I do something, it's what's beautiful about it 388 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:11,196 Speaker 1: goes away. I can ruin it, you know. It's like 389 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:13,916 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to ruin a beautiful white canvas, you know. 390 00:19:14,276 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: Or and their canvases aren't clean. They come already with 391 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:21,636 Speaker 1: so much information, and but sometimes I just cannot dance 392 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 1: with one of their sketches or one of the bits 393 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 1: of music. And and this was like I could hear 394 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:29,236 Speaker 1: when there was when I couldn't write. I was like 395 00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 1: I could hear that the music that I was trying 396 00:19:31,916 --> 00:19:35,636 Speaker 1: to write to was was good. It wasn't. It wasn't 397 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:38,436 Speaker 1: that it was me I was I was I was 398 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: not able to sort of find my way into it, 399 00:19:41,116 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 1: and that was what was the worst part about it. 400 00:19:43,596 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: But yeah, when a couple of little bits and some 401 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 1: songs in a little phrase or melody like started like, Okay, 402 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:52,956 Speaker 1: well that's good enough, that's a good that's a good 403 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 1: lily pad. That's one little that's one little lego that 404 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:57,556 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna put over here because I think 405 00:19:57,596 --> 00:19:59,476 Speaker 1: I'm gonna use that little lego. You know. The rest 406 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:01,116 Speaker 1: is just a mess, and I don't want to even 407 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:03,436 Speaker 1: look at that pile. But at least that one little lego, 408 00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:06,356 Speaker 1: you know. I and then you find another lego, you know, 409 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: and then and so yeah, the little tiny bits, little 410 00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:11,476 Speaker 1: like it's a little little little lyric or a little 411 00:20:11,516 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 1: melody or in a little spot in a song somewhere, 412 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:16,596 Speaker 1: we'll be like, ah, if I can build a song 413 00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: out from around that one little little spark, then it 414 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: might end up being the best song I've ever written. 415 00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:24,956 Speaker 1: That's the thing about songs. They're like these three little 416 00:20:25,156 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: three and a half minute things that you could start 417 00:20:28,476 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 1: and you have the sense of like this might be 418 00:20:30,636 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 1: one like this could be a beautiful song, this could 419 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:37,556 Speaker 1: be imagined, this could be you know, sabotage. This could 420 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 1: be you know, hey, yah whatever, you know, you know 421 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like when you start on something like 422 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:46,276 Speaker 1: it could be one of the greatest songs I've ever written, 423 00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:49,836 Speaker 1: and it could be, Hey, Jude, and almost never is, 424 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 1: you know, but it could be. And that feeling is 425 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 1: when like when a kid first learns like the G 426 00:20:57,876 --> 00:21:00,276 Speaker 1: chord for the first time and they're like, holy shit, 427 00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 1: I can be Nirvana. You know I did once you 428 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:06,996 Speaker 1: get that first thread. So that's first for me, Like 429 00:21:07,276 --> 00:21:09,756 Speaker 1: the songs like just a little like a little bit 430 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:14,956 Speaker 1: where like, ah, that might end up being incredible if 431 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: I can, if I can. 432 00:21:16,396 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 3: So the hope, yeah, just the hope part of it. 433 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:21,756 Speaker 1: The belief that like this could be a beautiful thing 434 00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 1: that makes you, makes you and lots of people feel great, 435 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 1: and it could be on the radio and you know 436 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: it could be. It's like just stuff that those simple 437 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 1: things you're like, those are such a enough serotonin or 438 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: and doorphins get get sent off into your bloodstream that 439 00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:40,916 Speaker 1: I just one of the little little things a day 440 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:44,236 Speaker 1: can keep your head above water and then keep you going. 441 00:21:44,316 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 1: But that's why, you know, that's why like when months 442 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:47,516 Speaker 1: and weeks would go by it, and I didn't have 443 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:49,796 Speaker 1: one of those little things. I was getting none of them, 444 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:50,476 Speaker 1: you know nothing. 445 00:21:51,316 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be 446 00:21:53,396 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 2: back with more from Leo Rose and Matt Burninger. We're 447 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:03,876 Speaker 2: back with Matt Burninger and Leo Rose. 448 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,916 Speaker 3: Do you have any like wellness practices or anything that 449 00:22:08,956 --> 00:22:12,876 Speaker 3: you you do that is supposed to be good for you, 450 00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 3: you know, whether it's like exercise or meditation or walks or. 451 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to ride on my bike and walk, 452 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 1: biking and walking just you know those things. Yeah, just 453 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:27,196 Speaker 1: just just I mean, I think it's it's very well 454 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:31,076 Speaker 1: known that just just moving your body is like just 455 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 1: getting your your body moving, because when your body is moving, 456 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 1: it's not like it's not trying to like, you know, 457 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:41,916 Speaker 1: lose weight or get cardio, just move your body simply 458 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 1: that those gears are at least doing that thing, you know, right. 459 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 1: And so when those gears are doing that thing, your 460 00:22:48,476 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: legs and your legs are moving and you're walking and 461 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:53,716 Speaker 1: you're breathing it out, the part of your brain that 462 00:22:53,796 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 1: gets anxiety and gets chess can sometimes just like just 463 00:22:57,156 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 1: slow down and let that thing and then and then 464 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:02,196 Speaker 1: suddenly the rest of the gears start. It just it 465 00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,036 Speaker 1: greases the wheels, you know, It's like totally And when 466 00:23:05,036 --> 00:23:09,116 Speaker 1: you don't do those things, I think the worry part, anxiety, 467 00:23:10,236 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 1: all the other things that all the other wheels in 468 00:23:13,356 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 1: your brain that you need are important for survival, all 469 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:18,676 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, but they just start spinning and 470 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 1: nothing everything else freezes and then you just like you're exhausted, 471 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: but you can't sleep because your anxiety wheels are going. 472 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:30,196 Speaker 1: So yeah, I do do other things, but I mean, honestly, 473 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 1: like when you're in a when I was in that 474 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:33,156 Speaker 1: dark face, I didn't want to. I mean, I go, 475 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: I'd ride my two blocks and I turn around and 476 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 1: come home. I was like, yeah, I couldn't ride my bike, 477 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 1: I couldn't watch TV, couldn't listen to any music. So 478 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: it was a sunken sunken place for sure, sunking place. 479 00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:48,156 Speaker 3: Has listening to music with your daughter influenced your writing 480 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 3: at all or the way that you're approaching music, because 481 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:52,996 Speaker 3: it's almost like you get to hear music for the 482 00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 3: first time. You know through her ears. 483 00:23:56,316 --> 00:24:01,876 Speaker 1: Only that if you try to cater to anybody, you're 484 00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 1: gonna fail. Like her bullshit detector for like just sounds 485 00:24:05,756 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: like they're just sounds like they're trying so hard to 486 00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:12,676 Speaker 1: make make me think they're cool, or like like lines 487 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:16,636 Speaker 1: that are like seem like you know, seem like great 488 00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:20,356 Speaker 1: all caps, you know, great lyrics. She's she's like, ah, 489 00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 1: it's a little too much. You know. It's like, oh gosh, 490 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:26,876 Speaker 1: you know, like kids are way more sophisticated than you think. 491 00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:31,236 Speaker 1: And and you can't like, well, I mean it's hard 492 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:32,916 Speaker 1: to say. It's like I mean, I mean I don't 493 00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 1: want to like there's guilty pleasures, but still her favorite 494 00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 1: favorite stuff is more complex or just like the stuff 495 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 1: that's like blurry and weird, and and it's like why 496 00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:49,036 Speaker 1: kids love certain scary children's books that are just like 497 00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:51,196 Speaker 1: you can't quite figure them out, Like why why do 498 00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:54,356 Speaker 1: those resonate so much? It's always the stuff that's a 499 00:24:54,356 --> 00:24:58,316 Speaker 1: little creepy, a little spooky, not setting it up, you know, 500 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 1: with an obvious, you know, satisfying thing, like like something 501 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 1: is a little off and a little a little hard 502 00:25:05,756 --> 00:25:07,836 Speaker 1: to figure out, like what does that mean? That's the 503 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:11,076 Speaker 1: stuff that sticks with her. So yeah, it's really that's 504 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:13,556 Speaker 1: so it's really inspiring. I was like, oh yeah, I can't. 505 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:16,836 Speaker 1: You can never never phone it in and try to 506 00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:21,516 Speaker 1: like market to you know, to a demographic or anything. 507 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:23,436 Speaker 1: You just have to. You really have to be honest 508 00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 1: with yourself. Are you are you interesting? Are being interesting 509 00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:31,956 Speaker 1: to yourself? Because even twelve year olds can tell when 510 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:33,436 Speaker 1: you're when you're pandering. 511 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 3: Do you play her music you're working on? 512 00:25:35,676 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? 513 00:25:37,716 --> 00:25:39,436 Speaker 3: Does she? What does she tend to tell you? 514 00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: She's always excited. She's always I mean, she's I mean, 515 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 1: she does really like it. And but it's like I'll 516 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 1: play it just because because occasionally she'll like like not 517 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 1: like something, and and she's she's definitely not being nice, 518 00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 1: you know, because she sees, well Krin and I talk 519 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: about it all the time, so she sees how not 520 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: precious I am I and she sees how both of us, 521 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:04,316 Speaker 1: you know, tear about TV shows and tear apart movies 522 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 1: and like, you know, like we're cruel with this stuff 523 00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:07,916 Speaker 1: just because that's what you do. 524 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:10,196 Speaker 3: It's it's sounds like my house. 525 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:12,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's it's like because when something's great, 526 00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:15,756 Speaker 1: like it has to be celebrated, and like in the 527 00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 1: mystery of why something is great, you just have to 528 00:26:18,516 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 1: you have to dig into it. 529 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:24,796 Speaker 3: It really is easier to talk shit about something describe 530 00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:26,676 Speaker 3: how incredible something is. 531 00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean mostly when I'm writing, I'm just trying 532 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:33,436 Speaker 1: to avoid being terrible. I mean, like you try to 533 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 1: write something and like like it's terrible. It's like you 534 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:38,156 Speaker 1: try to sing a melody, It's like it's terrible. Certainly, 535 00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:40,916 Speaker 1: wait that's wait, maybe something there and then you find 536 00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 1: And so it's always for me, it's always I step 537 00:26:45,596 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 1: into the ugly, you know, I just step out and 538 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,716 Speaker 1: it's always ugly, or it's always it's very rarely a 539 00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:55,196 Speaker 1: lyric or even a melody ever ever quite. It takes 540 00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:57,716 Speaker 1: a lot of stepping in this way, that way, this 541 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: way a little bit and adjustment and listening over and 542 00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:03,236 Speaker 1: over and throwing it away. Like when I I write, 543 00:27:03,596 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 1: you know, I'll put in a sketch from those guys 544 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:08,236 Speaker 1: and it's usually pretty simple. Sometimes it's not even it's 545 00:27:08,396 --> 00:27:10,396 Speaker 1: just one part, you know, it's like you know, three, 546 00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:14,276 Speaker 1: three or four chords like repeated, and I will I'll 547 00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:15,916 Speaker 1: just start trying to sing to it, and I'll just 548 00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:19,676 Speaker 1: track after track, layer after layer. I just like I 549 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: have fifteen fifteen things that I'm just like just free 550 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:28,436 Speaker 1: associating and singing gobbledygook over and then I'll go back 551 00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 1: and listen and it's like most of it's all terrible, 552 00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:34,916 Speaker 1: and it's just like, oh, that one little spot is. 553 00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 3: Like kind of like the melody is terrible, or the 554 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:38,996 Speaker 3: words are terrible, the lyrics are terrible. 555 00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 1: It's usually melody, you know. I'm always like looking for melody, 556 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 1: not worrying about words. And then later I will try 557 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 1: to put words to it, and I kind of write separately. 558 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,756 Speaker 1: I'll write little bits and pieces and then I'll see 559 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 1: it fits in a song, and then I'll listen to 560 00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,676 Speaker 1: to like what it sounds like I'm saying, and like 561 00:27:56,716 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 1: go in that mode and just try to like write 562 00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: around what it kind of sounds like I'm saying and 563 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,396 Speaker 1: craft that it's it. It's like I kend go about 564 00:28:03,396 --> 00:28:07,636 Speaker 1: it like all different ways. But almost never am I like, oh, 565 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 1: like like step right in and like oh that's feeling good, 566 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 1: and like a song comes out. It's usually like it's 567 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 1: just always trying to avoid stuff that sounds cliche or 568 00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:21,836 Speaker 1: you're trying too hard, or your sound too bored, or 569 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 1: you you sound too energetic? Are you like it's just 570 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:27,316 Speaker 1: a million a million little dials, you know. 571 00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:29,876 Speaker 3: But that seems good though, because at least it's the 572 00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 3: opposite of being paralyzed, Like that's very active. Yeah, and 573 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:36,636 Speaker 3: just trying and trying and trying, and kind of like reiterating, 574 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 3: do you have any sort of rituals or any things 575 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:44,196 Speaker 3: that you put yourself through to get into a space 576 00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:48,276 Speaker 3: where it's easier to write. We had Rivers Cuomo on 577 00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 3: the show, and he talked about how he tried sort 578 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,756 Speaker 3: of like a deprivation technique where he would lock himself 579 00:28:54,756 --> 00:28:57,796 Speaker 3: in a bathroom for like two days and like not eat, 580 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 3: just to try and like bring about creativity that way. 581 00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 3: And that's obviously extreme. 582 00:29:04,116 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 1: Mh. 583 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,796 Speaker 3: But is there anything that you do, like even if 584 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:10,476 Speaker 3: it's like drink a little something, smoke something and then 585 00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 3: you're in this space? 586 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean I don't have I don't try 587 00:29:15,676 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 1: to force it. I mean, when I was in that 588 00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 1: long phase where nothing has happened, I realized that, like, 589 00:29:20,756 --> 00:29:24,196 Speaker 1: oh God, if you can't just sit around, it's it's weird. 590 00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:26,316 Speaker 1: It's like I couldn't, I couldn't turn it on. And 591 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 1: I kept trying, and I guess, I guess if I 592 00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:32,596 Speaker 1: hadn't keep trying to turn it on. It may have 593 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 1: never come on, and so you do have to sort 594 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:36,876 Speaker 1: of I did have to force it. I guess. Eventually 595 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 1: I had to go to the studio those guys. I 596 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 1: had to go in the booth and the microphone was 597 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 1: on hand to try put something on down on record, 598 00:29:43,676 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: you know, and that's it wasn't until then until the 599 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:49,956 Speaker 1: really started happening. So I did. Like just just getting 600 00:29:49,956 --> 00:29:52,316 Speaker 1: in there and doing it is really the only thing 601 00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:56,116 Speaker 1: sometimes when it's not happening at all that you can do. 602 00:29:56,156 --> 00:29:57,756 Speaker 1: I don't know, just get in front of a microphone. 603 00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 1: But again, I will say, I kind of just have 604 00:30:02,236 --> 00:30:05,196 Speaker 1: to get into a comfortable place with it, and I 605 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 1: will most of the time I'm writing, like on a 606 00:30:08,276 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 1: couch or in bed, headphones on and like just listen 607 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 1: to stuff and just trying to zone out. Yeah, and 608 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: sometimes I'll smoke some weed sometimes I'll you know, I don't. Yeah, 609 00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 1: I'll drink a little bit of wine sometimes like that. 610 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:21,516 Speaker 1: But I kind of I like it in the mode 611 00:30:21,516 --> 00:30:25,076 Speaker 1: where you know, iced tea and weed works really great, 612 00:30:25,196 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: you know, and kind of in the middle of the day, 613 00:30:27,116 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 1: in the middle of the day and those weird moments 614 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:29,756 Speaker 1: those kind of. 615 00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 3: Like like light up or downer. 616 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:33,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, just a light I try to like just get 617 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 1: I don't write well when I'm like loaded. I mean 618 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:38,716 Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes have. 619 00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:42,236 Speaker 3: You ever recorded or written or recorded something when you're 620 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 3: just like loaded, and you probably think it sounds really 621 00:30:45,836 --> 00:30:48,636 Speaker 3: really good or maybe it's really deep, Like what is 622 00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:49,316 Speaker 3: that experience? 623 00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:52,676 Speaker 1: Like I like that. That's a good question. I'm trying 624 00:30:52,676 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 1: to write. It's hard to I mean, yeah, I used 625 00:30:55,316 --> 00:30:57,396 Speaker 1: I used to. My favorite thing in the world to 626 00:30:57,476 --> 00:31:00,876 Speaker 1: do was get a six pack and a pack of 627 00:31:00,876 --> 00:31:05,396 Speaker 1: cigarettes and listen to records. And I have a notebook 628 00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:08,556 Speaker 1: and just like just filling notebooks and just writing and 629 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 1: writing right and listening and just and and and it 630 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 1: was just like it was great. This is what can 631 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,076 Speaker 1: I say? It just it was it was so much fun. 632 00:31:16,156 --> 00:31:18,916 Speaker 1: But I but I don't do it like that anymore, 633 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 1: just because it's like I feel like shit if I drink, 634 00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:23,996 Speaker 1: drink or smoke that much stuff, you know, and so 635 00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:25,916 Speaker 1: so yeah, it's a it's a healthier thing. And and 636 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: I do it's it's good to ride to ride bike 637 00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 1: and I'll smoke some weed and ride my bike and 638 00:31:30,516 --> 00:31:32,796 Speaker 1: and and and if I get in a mode, I'll 639 00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:36,436 Speaker 1: be I'll be pulling over every two minutes to like write, 640 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 1: just to text myself a little thing, a little lyric 641 00:31:39,716 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 1: or a little line. So that's that's kind of how 642 00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:45,516 Speaker 1: it works. Like I like to get into kind of meditative, 643 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:49,236 Speaker 1: rhythmic zone. I won't sit there and try to like 644 00:31:49,636 --> 00:31:52,316 Speaker 1: craft architect a song. I'll like, I'll get a little 645 00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:53,876 Speaker 1: bit I like and then I'll sing it over and 646 00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:55,836 Speaker 1: over and over again, and you know, on a loop 647 00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:58,716 Speaker 1: and just just kind of just just practicing the rhythm 648 00:31:58,796 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: of a of a of a you know, practicing a swing. 649 00:32:01,436 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 1: You just kind of keep doing it until you get 650 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 1: the kind of rhythm right and the tone of it right. 651 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:08,196 Speaker 1: And I'll do that and that's probably because I'm you're 652 00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:09,916 Speaker 1: stoned and you're just kinda in that mode just like 653 00:32:10,236 --> 00:32:12,636 Speaker 1: you can you can marvel at the same lego like 654 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:16,516 Speaker 1: for a while totally, but it's good. But you manage 655 00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: to kind of, you know, get that stone just right. 656 00:32:20,116 --> 00:32:21,756 Speaker 1: So when you when you're gonna put it into the 657 00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:25,116 Speaker 1: end of the you know, another brick in the wall, whatever, 658 00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:27,396 Speaker 1: it's like you gotta get that break just right. And 659 00:32:27,516 --> 00:32:31,596 Speaker 1: other times it's then you're like, okay, now I've filled this. 660 00:32:31,596 --> 00:32:33,836 Speaker 1: This sketch is only three minutes long, but I've got 661 00:32:34,436 --> 00:32:36,796 Speaker 1: seventeen different melody options. 662 00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 3: Right, It's like, there's wow, are they all original melodies? 663 00:32:39,996 --> 00:32:40,076 Speaker 1: Like? 664 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:43,436 Speaker 3: How do you know they don't come from I would 665 00:32:43,436 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 3: hope they don't, But it seems like it was just 666 00:32:45,236 --> 00:32:46,596 Speaker 3: sort of a natural thing to happen. 667 00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:48,396 Speaker 1: I don't know, you just think it's a weird thing. 668 00:32:48,396 --> 00:32:51,476 Speaker 1: There'd be like you can start almost anywhere. It's like, 669 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 1: I mean, I used to think like, okay, here's a guitar, 670 00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:56,596 Speaker 1: here's some guitar chords and a beat in a rhythm. 671 00:32:56,596 --> 00:32:58,596 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, well, there's only so many things I 672 00:32:58,596 --> 00:33:00,916 Speaker 1: can do. I learned a longer. You guys like, oh shit, 673 00:33:00,996 --> 00:33:05,196 Speaker 1: you can. You may feel like you're cornered in with something. 674 00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:07,596 Speaker 1: It's like you can start anywhere on it. You can, 675 00:33:07,676 --> 00:33:11,676 Speaker 1: like you it's it's almost infinite. How many I mean 676 00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:13,596 Speaker 1: you can you can start on a note that rubs 677 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:16,396 Speaker 1: against whatever notes are there and and play with that 678 00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:18,596 Speaker 1: that way. It's like you can you can put any 679 00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:21,356 Speaker 1: kind of color onto any kind of canvas and try. 680 00:33:21,516 --> 00:33:24,556 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's just it's just not a it's 681 00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:26,676 Speaker 1: just doesn't feel right, you know, it just doesn't feel 682 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:28,676 Speaker 1: the personality of it, like I always though about the 683 00:33:28,676 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 1: personality of songs. It's just like the personality doesn't feel 684 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 1: like me, you know, or I didn't feel like I 685 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: wasn't in that zone. I can't, I can't quite get 686 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,316 Speaker 1: even though it's I like that personality, but it's just like, 687 00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:43,436 Speaker 1: that's not what I need now, that's not the that's 688 00:33:43,436 --> 00:33:48,156 Speaker 1: not the character I need to to talk to right now, 689 00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:50,356 Speaker 1: you know. It's that's that's that's what the songs are like. 690 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:53,236 Speaker 1: They're like they're like a partner that that you have 691 00:33:53,316 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 1: to sort of like dance with, and and some you know, 692 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: some people you like are in rhythm with, and some 693 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:01,036 Speaker 1: like you know, some sketches that Aaron Aaron sent me 694 00:34:01,236 --> 00:34:03,396 Speaker 1: ended up, you know, on other people's records in our 695 00:34:03,516 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 1: huge hits. 696 00:34:04,116 --> 00:34:06,596 Speaker 3: You know. It's like, oh, like, what's an example of that. 697 00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:09,036 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. There's there's a bunch of 698 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:13,676 Speaker 1: I think Cardigan and Willow and some other ones. I 699 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 1: had been taken a whack at some ideas or at 700 00:34:17,356 --> 00:34:19,796 Speaker 1: one point those were in a batch that I was like, 701 00:34:19,836 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: I couldn't I couldn't do anything too and I still 702 00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:25,196 Speaker 1: it's like I've listened to those I studied those songs. 703 00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:26,876 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, look what she did with. 704 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 3: Those songs, right, I was gonna say, yeah, like that 705 00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 3: must be interesting. 706 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:35,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I've I've got things like like that are 707 00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:40,436 Speaker 1: just really different melody and and and and written like 708 00:34:40,676 --> 00:34:43,796 Speaker 1: places that like totally different songs. And it's like that's 709 00:34:43,796 --> 00:34:46,596 Speaker 1: one of those things that's really really uh, really kind 710 00:34:46,636 --> 00:34:49,076 Speaker 1: of fun about about songs and what we were talking 711 00:34:49,076 --> 00:34:51,316 Speaker 1: about before. Like for example, when we when I go 712 00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:53,396 Speaker 1: in and say like, okay, here, here's you know, by 713 00:34:53,436 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 1: your side by Shahda, I mean you could learn it. 714 00:34:57,196 --> 00:34:58,996 Speaker 1: First you learn it and then you get Okay, that's 715 00:34:59,036 --> 00:35:01,476 Speaker 1: that song. But like to kind of like try do 716 00:35:01,596 --> 00:35:04,036 Speaker 1: a song that's kind of in the zone, it's like 717 00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:08,156 Speaker 1: really really hard to match a zone of a thing, 718 00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:09,636 Speaker 1: you know. It's it's kind of I mean, you can 719 00:35:09,716 --> 00:35:10,836 Speaker 1: kind of match it, but it's. 720 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 3: Like, do you mean if you were to try and 721 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:16,996 Speaker 3: cover it or make something in a similar vein you can. 722 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:21,116 Speaker 1: Cover, but like even covering songs does not mean that 723 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 1: song is gonna have any of that magic that that 724 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:26,476 Speaker 1: Ridge that one did. It's weird. So I'm saying it's like, 725 00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:30,076 Speaker 1: I'm never nervous about somebody thing. Oh you stole that 726 00:35:30,116 --> 00:35:34,836 Speaker 1: from like like maybe yeah, maybe, Like like that, every 727 00:35:34,876 --> 00:35:37,676 Speaker 1: little every single I mean everything that you hear is 728 00:35:38,356 --> 00:35:41,756 Speaker 1: has taken and re recrafted. And it's not even like 729 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:44,356 Speaker 1: they try hard. It's like it's kind of impossible to 730 00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:46,876 Speaker 1: like you change one little thing, everything starts to change, 731 00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:51,716 Speaker 1: you know. So I always listening to the Miley Cyrus 732 00:35:51,716 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 1: Flowers and she even talks about what was that. It 733 00:35:54,236 --> 00:35:56,756 Speaker 1: was like it's her biggest song, I think flowers now, 734 00:35:56,796 --> 00:36:00,636 Speaker 1: and it's like she was sort of ripping off the 735 00:36:00,676 --> 00:36:04,596 Speaker 1: Bruno Mars song or something up to be No be 736 00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:06,796 Speaker 1: Your Man, I want to be Your Man or something 737 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 1: like that. His his biggest song. He's like a billion 738 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:13,196 Speaker 1: and a half, you know, listens and like, oh yeah, 739 00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:15,516 Speaker 1: there's there's that little section right there. I mean the 740 00:36:15,596 --> 00:36:20,116 Speaker 1: lyrics are I mean, flowers rhyming, flowers with hours and 741 00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 1: and hand with sand are all there. You know. She 742 00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:26,956 Speaker 1: could definitely just like took all that and reaf you know, 743 00:36:26,996 --> 00:36:28,436 Speaker 1: and she talks about it. That's the best way to 744 00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:31,036 Speaker 1: approach it, because like it's the other ones, they're both giant, 745 00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:33,596 Speaker 1: massive songs. And you're like, oh yeah, there's that little 746 00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:35,796 Speaker 1: part where like, oh yeah, you can hear that note 747 00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 1: on that thing, there's there's that little fragment that definitely 748 00:36:39,396 --> 00:36:42,596 Speaker 1: was taken from that. But I don't like, I don't 749 00:36:42,756 --> 00:36:45,276 Speaker 1: like that's that's how everything's made, you know, kind of 750 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:48,956 Speaker 1: like I I think that's uh, And so I think 751 00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:53,396 Speaker 1: I do that probably more than I realize. But it's 752 00:36:53,756 --> 00:36:58,476 Speaker 1: usually I often sing other people's lyrics to music just 753 00:36:58,876 --> 00:37:03,596 Speaker 1: because it's impossible. Often songs tempo and time signature or 754 00:37:03,676 --> 00:37:07,236 Speaker 1: chords or whatever one lyrics will you just it forces 755 00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:10,716 Speaker 1: you to change everything around, you know, just uh, and 756 00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:13,356 Speaker 1: you change melody and everything changes, and then and then 757 00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:15,836 Speaker 1: you find your own you know, and then those those 758 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:18,196 Speaker 1: words that you started with somebody else just just just 759 00:37:18,196 --> 00:37:21,316 Speaker 1: just disappear, and your own things just sort of grow 760 00:37:21,316 --> 00:37:23,596 Speaker 1: in the cracks of that you made around it. I 761 00:37:23,636 --> 00:37:28,596 Speaker 1: don't know, it's the process is usually incredibly fun, really, 762 00:37:28,796 --> 00:37:30,996 Speaker 1: and that's why I like in that phase where I 763 00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:34,796 Speaker 1: just like I was heartbroken over the loss of my 764 00:37:34,956 --> 00:37:37,356 Speaker 1: love for it. That was such a bummer, like to 765 00:37:37,596 --> 00:37:41,196 Speaker 1: like to not for even music, not not to give 766 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:44,596 Speaker 1: me that thrill or that serotonin or that endorphin or 767 00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:45,636 Speaker 1: that little stuff. 768 00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:48,716 Speaker 2: We'll be back after another quick break with more from 769 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:56,516 Speaker 2: Leo Rose and Matt Berninger. We're back with the rest 770 00:37:56,596 --> 00:38:02,676 Speaker 2: of Lea Rose's conversation with The Nationals. Matt Berninger, Is. 771 00:38:02,596 --> 00:38:04,956 Speaker 3: It true that there's sort of like an unwritten rule 772 00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:07,596 Speaker 3: in the band that people don't directly ask you about 773 00:38:07,636 --> 00:38:08,996 Speaker 3: the meaning behind your lyrics? 774 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:14,476 Speaker 1: I didn't know. They don't. They almost never do. I 775 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:15,716 Speaker 1: don't think they ever do. 776 00:38:15,716 --> 00:38:17,436 Speaker 3: Does anyone ask you if you're. 777 00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:21,316 Speaker 1: Like fans do and and journalists do, and there's no rule, 778 00:38:21,636 --> 00:38:26,636 Speaker 1: but no, the guys usually don't. Yeah, they don't. I 779 00:38:26,676 --> 00:38:30,996 Speaker 1: don't think I don't. I'd have to think about when 780 00:38:32,076 --> 00:38:33,396 Speaker 1: any of those guys ever asked me. 781 00:38:34,116 --> 00:38:36,276 Speaker 3: Do you care what they think about your lyrics? 782 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:41,356 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, totally, of course. Yeah. I'm always trying to 783 00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:42,556 Speaker 1: impress them. Yeah. 784 00:38:42,636 --> 00:38:44,636 Speaker 3: Is there some when you're writing? Is there somebody in 785 00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:47,836 Speaker 3: your mind who you're trying to impress or you're writing for? 786 00:38:48,636 --> 00:38:52,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, those guys in Krin, you know, and and yeah, 787 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:56,036 Speaker 1: and my daughter and and and the appears you know. Yeah, 788 00:38:56,076 --> 00:38:59,236 Speaker 1: I want to I want to impress all the walkman. 789 00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:01,916 Speaker 1: I want to impress Phoebe Bridges. I want to you know, 790 00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:06,436 Speaker 1: I went Taylor Swift to to to be as impressed 791 00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:08,316 Speaker 1: by me as I am by her, you know. And 792 00:39:08,396 --> 00:39:11,916 Speaker 1: so yeah, I want to be loved. I want to 793 00:39:11,956 --> 00:39:14,596 Speaker 1: be I want to be adored and I want to 794 00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:17,236 Speaker 1: be But that's the that's the what's such a funny thing. 795 00:39:17,316 --> 00:39:22,156 Speaker 1: It's like, if you try to write with that purpose, 796 00:39:22,676 --> 00:39:25,636 Speaker 1: you're gonna sound desperate, you know, so to be truly 797 00:39:25,716 --> 00:39:30,036 Speaker 1: adored and to be for other, your other your favorite artists, 798 00:39:30,036 --> 00:39:32,916 Speaker 1: to get to actually really like what you're doing, you 799 00:39:33,036 --> 00:39:35,556 Speaker 1: have to do weird ship that is a little maybe 800 00:39:35,596 --> 00:39:39,556 Speaker 1: uncomfortable and scary and maybe isn't isn't gonna work, you know. 801 00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:43,276 Speaker 1: That's that's what's gonna impress the walkman, that's what's gonna 802 00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:47,316 Speaker 1: impress you know, my wife, and and and and and 803 00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:49,076 Speaker 1: and then that's what the band wants, Like the band 804 00:39:49,076 --> 00:39:52,996 Speaker 1: doesn't want our band doesn't want necessarily want a hit 805 00:39:53,316 --> 00:39:56,876 Speaker 1: if it's not real, if it doesn't feel like kind 806 00:39:56,876 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 1: of real to us. 807 00:39:58,396 --> 00:40:01,796 Speaker 3: I was wondering with Karin, like when she hears things 808 00:40:01,796 --> 00:40:05,636 Speaker 3: that you've written, if you're writing about an old love 809 00:40:05,996 --> 00:40:09,596 Speaker 3: or loving someone missing somebody, is she ever, like, who 810 00:40:09,676 --> 00:40:10,676 Speaker 3: are you talking about? 811 00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:16,316 Speaker 1: No, she's When we first started dating, I was in 812 00:40:16,356 --> 00:40:19,716 Speaker 1: the middle of writing all these songs, you know, a 813 00:40:19,756 --> 00:40:22,836 Speaker 1: bunch of songs. You know that that she's kind of 814 00:40:22,836 --> 00:40:25,916 Speaker 1: like right away was kind of like so into all 815 00:40:25,956 --> 00:40:27,676 Speaker 1: of it, like the writing of songs. So it's always 816 00:40:27,676 --> 00:40:33,036 Speaker 1: been that way. And and I've also been mostly writing 817 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:36,716 Speaker 1: about her, you know. It's like or the band or yeah. 818 00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:42,036 Speaker 1: But then there's the like sometimes songs are not autobiographical, obviously, 819 00:40:42,076 --> 00:40:46,036 Speaker 1: but they're but there's sort of exercises and looking into 820 00:40:46,756 --> 00:40:49,796 Speaker 1: a window or looking or looking over over the edge 821 00:40:49,836 --> 00:40:54,716 Speaker 1: of something, and like Eucalyptus or whatever is obviously a 822 00:40:54,756 --> 00:40:58,676 Speaker 1: song about about splitting up things. And and and I 823 00:40:58,716 --> 00:41:00,876 Speaker 1: think it's kind of a funny song about like, you know, 824 00:41:01,516 --> 00:41:03,276 Speaker 1: like all the things like how do you how do 825 00:41:03,316 --> 00:41:07,356 Speaker 1: you split up your water subscription? You know, But so 826 00:41:07,436 --> 00:41:10,996 Speaker 1: you're writing writing about breaking up is a way of 827 00:41:11,116 --> 00:41:14,356 Speaker 1: sort of like of confronting your fears. You know. It's 828 00:41:14,356 --> 00:41:16,556 Speaker 1: like and like once upon a pool Side, and like 829 00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:20,396 Speaker 1: a lot of those record is is really like the 830 00:41:20,436 --> 00:41:23,996 Speaker 1: fear of maybe that the band being over. And it's 831 00:41:24,116 --> 00:41:26,996 Speaker 1: very romantic. Generally, there'll be bits and pieces of the 832 00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:29,716 Speaker 1: songs that like in this usually well much later, like 833 00:41:29,756 --> 00:41:32,036 Speaker 1: after the record's out and after finally it's all finished, 834 00:41:32,036 --> 00:41:35,276 Speaker 1: where like yeah, wasn't that again? And you know what, 835 00:41:35,396 --> 00:41:37,156 Speaker 1: you know, like it'll be way later, but in the 836 00:41:37,156 --> 00:41:40,516 Speaker 1: middle of the creative process, if it's good, if it's like, 837 00:41:40,756 --> 00:41:43,076 Speaker 1: that's great, like that's all we that's all we ever 838 00:41:43,116 --> 00:41:48,156 Speaker 1: talked about. Sometimes sometimes much later, once the art is finished, 839 00:41:48,916 --> 00:41:51,116 Speaker 1: we'll be like, maybe we should talk about that a 840 00:41:51,156 --> 00:41:51,756 Speaker 1: little bit, you know. 841 00:41:52,476 --> 00:41:55,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was wondering, Yah, is there ever an instance 842 00:41:55,156 --> 00:41:57,756 Speaker 3: where you write a lyric and it's the beginning of 843 00:41:57,796 --> 00:42:01,756 Speaker 3: something that might almost be subconscious, but then it ultimately 844 00:42:01,796 --> 00:42:02,676 Speaker 3: comes true later. 845 00:42:03,196 --> 00:42:05,316 Speaker 1: I mean, what you made me think of is maybe 846 00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:08,556 Speaker 1: not what you're asking, but I I do, I do, 847 00:42:09,356 --> 00:42:13,636 Speaker 1: And I did feel that maybe all of this writing, 848 00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:17,556 Speaker 1: of all these making these big you know, these beautiful 849 00:42:17,556 --> 00:42:20,036 Speaker 1: things out of uncomfortable feelings that I've been doing for 850 00:42:20,076 --> 00:42:23,116 Speaker 1: twenty years and you know, we're on the ninth record 851 00:42:23,236 --> 00:42:25,236 Speaker 1: or whatever, and plus all the other like so, I mean, 852 00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:30,356 Speaker 1: so like writing hundreds of songs about some of this stuff, 853 00:42:30,396 --> 00:42:33,436 Speaker 1: I was like, am I manifesting this character? Am I becoming? 854 00:42:33,556 --> 00:42:37,556 Speaker 1: Am I am I did I create this, this, this 855 00:42:37,876 --> 00:42:41,276 Speaker 1: sad sack, you know, because I write about it so much? 856 00:42:41,716 --> 00:42:43,596 Speaker 3: Do you think you did? Like where did you land 857 00:42:43,636 --> 00:42:44,276 Speaker 3: with that question? 858 00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:47,236 Speaker 1: It's in between, It's like yes, But I also write 859 00:42:47,276 --> 00:42:50,076 Speaker 1: all these songs because like like I am that way 860 00:42:50,676 --> 00:42:52,996 Speaker 1: and have that way and and and that's how I 861 00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:55,436 Speaker 1: That's how I that's how I survive. That's how I 862 00:42:55,876 --> 00:42:58,716 Speaker 1: feel better about life is because I make a little 863 00:42:58,716 --> 00:43:02,796 Speaker 1: something some kind of semi enjoyable and kind of fun 864 00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:06,476 Speaker 1: and beautiful and moving out of this ugly feeling. You know. 865 00:43:07,036 --> 00:43:09,796 Speaker 1: That's what all great love songs. You know, It's like 866 00:43:09,876 --> 00:43:15,476 Speaker 1: it's like it's like sad, ugly, uncomfortable feelings. What's a melody? 867 00:43:15,676 --> 00:43:18,636 Speaker 1: You know? And and and and that's that All the 868 00:43:18,676 --> 00:43:22,556 Speaker 1: best love songs are kind of crushing and and so 869 00:43:22,676 --> 00:43:27,356 Speaker 1: I think I do think I'm a much healthier person. 870 00:43:27,476 --> 00:43:29,916 Speaker 1: Haven't written all this stuff than have not? You know? 871 00:43:30,436 --> 00:43:34,036 Speaker 1: I do know that like other people like listening to 872 00:43:34,196 --> 00:43:36,356 Speaker 1: like we talked about, like the artists that we've been 873 00:43:36,356 --> 00:43:40,076 Speaker 1: talking about, including example, go back to Tom Waits, I 874 00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:44,596 Speaker 1: know that Tom Waits made me mentally healthier. You know, 875 00:43:44,596 --> 00:43:47,476 Speaker 1: it made me made me a happier person made me 876 00:43:47,596 --> 00:43:51,236 Speaker 1: a made me like myself more, and so did Nick Cave. 877 00:43:51,316 --> 00:43:54,236 Speaker 1: So all my favorite artists, you know, make me like 878 00:43:54,316 --> 00:43:57,116 Speaker 1: myself a little bit more because they're great about about 879 00:43:57,116 --> 00:43:59,676 Speaker 1: writing about what they hate about themselves, and I can 880 00:43:59,756 --> 00:44:02,196 Speaker 1: identify with that. And I was like, if that person 881 00:44:02,236 --> 00:44:04,516 Speaker 1: hates themselves, like you can say that that terrible thing 882 00:44:04,516 --> 00:44:07,516 Speaker 1: about themselves and make it so beautiful. I'm like, oh, 883 00:44:07,556 --> 00:44:09,636 Speaker 1: maybe maybe I can make something out of all the 884 00:44:09,676 --> 00:44:12,676 Speaker 1: things I hate about myself. So yeah, But then at 885 00:44:12,716 --> 00:44:15,196 Speaker 1: a certain time, you know the point of like all 886 00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:17,796 Speaker 1: these years, especially getting on stage and performing it and 887 00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:20,236 Speaker 1: doing it, you know, and then and then and then 888 00:44:20,316 --> 00:44:23,236 Speaker 1: and then having like a fan base, which is like incredible, 889 00:44:23,916 --> 00:44:26,836 Speaker 1: Like I have fans, but fans of songs I wrote, 890 00:44:26,876 --> 00:44:29,996 Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's it's sometimes you they forget 891 00:44:30,116 --> 00:44:33,836 Speaker 1: how like most people don't have fans of songs that 892 00:44:33,876 --> 00:44:36,796 Speaker 1: they wrote. You know, it's like an incredible thing. Strangers 893 00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:39,676 Speaker 1: that you've never met, like these songs that you wrote, 894 00:44:39,716 --> 00:44:42,036 Speaker 1: these things you wrote about your own feelings. You know, 895 00:44:42,676 --> 00:44:45,636 Speaker 1: like that's so lucky, you know. And then when people 896 00:44:45,876 --> 00:44:48,276 Speaker 1: like say how much they get out of it, and 897 00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:50,876 Speaker 1: you see people having these moments and you see people 898 00:44:50,916 --> 00:44:53,076 Speaker 1: write to you and tell you like this, and I 899 00:44:53,116 --> 00:44:55,796 Speaker 1: get a lot of letters and people say like this, 900 00:44:55,796 --> 00:44:59,076 Speaker 1: this stuff actually helped me through a really rough time. 901 00:44:59,556 --> 00:45:01,356 Speaker 1: And I'm like, it helped me through a rough time. 902 00:45:01,436 --> 00:45:02,796 Speaker 1: And then I think of all the other artists that 903 00:45:02,836 --> 00:45:04,956 Speaker 1: helped me, that their records help me, and I'm like like, 904 00:45:05,036 --> 00:45:07,316 Speaker 1: oh god, yeah, this is all really good, Like this 905 00:45:07,436 --> 00:45:08,996 Speaker 1: is a really good thing to do. 906 00:45:09,796 --> 00:45:12,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're like in service to other people. 907 00:45:12,196 --> 00:45:15,236 Speaker 1: A little bit, but mostly myself, you know, mostly like 908 00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:18,356 Speaker 1: I'm doing it for my own mental health mostly, but 909 00:45:18,396 --> 00:45:20,796 Speaker 1: it is working for other people too. It's helping other 910 00:45:20,836 --> 00:45:23,396 Speaker 1: people do for sure, and that's really good. But then 911 00:45:23,436 --> 00:45:25,796 Speaker 1: he's like, the night after night after night after night 912 00:45:25,796 --> 00:45:27,996 Speaker 1: after night after night, I'm touring and being auto, and 913 00:45:27,996 --> 00:45:29,636 Speaker 1: then you get weird. You just get weird. 914 00:45:29,676 --> 00:45:31,636 Speaker 3: It can How does it get weird? I heard you 915 00:45:31,676 --> 00:45:35,036 Speaker 3: talk about that being on tour can get weird, and 916 00:45:35,116 --> 00:45:37,516 Speaker 3: I'm extremely curious about what you mean about that. 917 00:45:37,996 --> 00:45:42,996 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think it's just mostly exhaustion. But then I 918 00:45:43,036 --> 00:45:45,396 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's the turning on and then 919 00:45:45,436 --> 00:45:49,836 Speaker 1: turning off. It's like to turn for me to get 920 00:45:49,836 --> 00:45:52,236 Speaker 1: into show mode to turn on to do that for 921 00:45:52,276 --> 00:45:56,116 Speaker 1: like a two hour you know, give or take performance. 922 00:45:56,796 --> 00:45:59,076 Speaker 1: Like it's not it doesn't come naturally. It's not like 923 00:45:59,276 --> 00:46:00,916 Speaker 1: I'm like I can't wait to get out there. It's 924 00:46:00,956 --> 00:46:03,236 Speaker 1: like it's bracing. It's I have to. I have to. 925 00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:05,436 Speaker 1: It's on my mind all day. I have to. It's 926 00:46:05,476 --> 00:46:08,316 Speaker 1: on my mind. It's like it's it's like every day 927 00:46:08,436 --> 00:46:11,276 Speaker 1: is sort of like you're doing like a mini wedding. 928 00:46:11,316 --> 00:46:13,036 Speaker 1: You gotta get ready, like to you know, just trying 929 00:46:13,036 --> 00:46:15,596 Speaker 1: to like can I get ready for it? It's and you 930 00:46:15,596 --> 00:46:18,596 Speaker 1: have to entertain. You have to. You don't know. You 931 00:46:18,636 --> 00:46:20,236 Speaker 1: might wake up in a great mood, but then like 932 00:46:20,316 --> 00:46:23,636 Speaker 1: something like you might by by seven thirty, you know, 933 00:46:23,796 --> 00:46:26,276 Speaker 1: half an hour before you're supposed to go on stage something. 934 00:46:26,276 --> 00:46:29,196 Speaker 1: You just might just be in the most miserable place 935 00:46:29,236 --> 00:46:30,076 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. 936 00:46:30,196 --> 00:46:32,916 Speaker 3: Just and you're the front man. So it's like all 937 00:46:32,996 --> 00:46:35,636 Speaker 3: eyes are on you. You can't kind of just like 938 00:46:35,676 --> 00:46:37,076 Speaker 3: play the back and play bass. 939 00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:37,396 Speaker 1: Yep. 940 00:46:38,116 --> 00:46:39,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's like you and you give it. 941 00:46:39,956 --> 00:46:41,996 Speaker 3: You're all you go super hard. 942 00:46:42,276 --> 00:46:44,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I won't complain it. It's cool. I mean, 943 00:46:44,156 --> 00:46:47,836 Speaker 1: like I I it's a funny thing. I'm often miserable 944 00:46:47,916 --> 00:46:51,676 Speaker 1: in the spotlight, but I'm usually like like like no, no, no, 945 00:46:51,596 --> 00:46:54,196 Speaker 1: over here. You know. It's like it's like, no, don't 946 00:46:54,196 --> 00:46:54,876 Speaker 1: look at me, look at. 947 00:46:54,836 --> 00:46:55,836 Speaker 3: Me, Like this is my best side. 948 00:46:55,996 --> 00:46:58,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm definitely don't look at me, look at me 949 00:46:58,476 --> 00:47:00,956 Speaker 1: type of person with a yeah, and I don't have 950 00:47:00,996 --> 00:47:04,076 Speaker 1: to get in a zone. And sometimes you drink too 951 00:47:04,196 --> 00:47:06,236 Speaker 1: much and something like I like, we don't have any 952 00:47:06,276 --> 00:47:09,036 Speaker 1: really terrible, terrible habits and but like, oh yeah, I've 953 00:47:09,756 --> 00:47:11,756 Speaker 1: how many times have been like I know now I 954 00:47:11,836 --> 00:47:15,036 Speaker 1: know what cocaine's for. You know. It's like, yeah, this 955 00:47:15,116 --> 00:47:17,196 Speaker 1: is why people do cocaine because they got to go 956 00:47:17,276 --> 00:47:17,676 Speaker 1: do that. 957 00:47:18,996 --> 00:47:20,276 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can slip the switch. 958 00:47:20,476 --> 00:47:23,116 Speaker 1: Yeah you can flip, but but I don't. I don't 959 00:47:23,796 --> 00:47:26,836 Speaker 1: do that, but I do. You know. I have a 960 00:47:26,836 --> 00:47:30,076 Speaker 1: few glasses of wine. Sometimes I won't, but those shows 961 00:47:30,116 --> 00:47:33,036 Speaker 1: are always like really honestly that the shows I won't 962 00:47:33,036 --> 00:47:35,516 Speaker 1: have any I was like, oh, those are if I 963 00:47:35,516 --> 00:47:37,596 Speaker 1: don't drink. If I don't drink anything, then I'm in 964 00:47:37,636 --> 00:47:40,996 Speaker 1: too inside my head. I think I think one or 965 00:47:41,036 --> 00:47:44,836 Speaker 1: two glasses of wine is probably the best. Yeah. 966 00:47:44,996 --> 00:47:46,956 Speaker 3: When I was talking to Aaron, he said something at 967 00:47:46,956 --> 00:47:49,836 Speaker 3: some point about He's like, yeah, sometimes I think like 968 00:47:49,836 --> 00:47:51,716 Speaker 3: I can't believe I'm forty six and I'm still in 969 00:47:51,756 --> 00:47:55,436 Speaker 3: a band. That's so embarrassing. Yeah, do you have any 970 00:47:55,436 --> 00:47:56,596 Speaker 3: similar feelings like that? 971 00:47:57,316 --> 00:48:00,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, we always do. I mean, like we 972 00:48:00,356 --> 00:48:03,196 Speaker 1: always listen we play songs or like, does this sound 973 00:48:03,236 --> 00:48:05,636 Speaker 1: like we're all trying to like wear skinny jeans. You know, 974 00:48:05,756 --> 00:48:09,276 Speaker 1: it's like and even though many of us still we're 975 00:48:09,276 --> 00:48:16,676 Speaker 1: skinny jeans, but there is that. The whole pandering thing 976 00:48:16,956 --> 00:48:19,676 Speaker 1: is is like we just can't do it, you know, 977 00:48:19,956 --> 00:48:23,076 Speaker 1: like we cannot like I can't, I can only write 978 00:48:23,076 --> 00:48:26,716 Speaker 1: a certain way, and I mean the answer questions like yeah, 979 00:48:26,956 --> 00:48:31,316 Speaker 1: we're often like feeling like we don't want to seem 980 00:48:31,436 --> 00:48:36,436 Speaker 1: like we're faking it, or if being on stage singing 981 00:48:36,436 --> 00:48:40,356 Speaker 1: a song that you don't really kind of believe or 982 00:48:40,396 --> 00:48:45,036 Speaker 1: don't or you know, doesn't feel good. So I think 983 00:48:45,076 --> 00:48:48,356 Speaker 1: if we if we started making songs that we felt 984 00:48:48,396 --> 00:48:50,556 Speaker 1: we're like, oh, well, we're kind of just putting out 985 00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:53,516 Speaker 1: records to service a you know, to service something a 986 00:48:53,556 --> 00:48:58,156 Speaker 1: fan base or whatever, like it definitely wouldn't be be enough. 987 00:48:58,516 --> 00:49:01,876 Speaker 1: So obviously we're always asking us like are these songs 988 00:49:02,396 --> 00:49:04,916 Speaker 1: worth putting out, is it? I know that like we 989 00:49:05,116 --> 00:49:07,756 Speaker 1: it's time for another record or it's time for another tour, 990 00:49:08,236 --> 00:49:12,436 Speaker 1: you know, according to the healthy economy of a of 991 00:49:12,476 --> 00:49:15,156 Speaker 1: a functioning band and all that kind of stuff, you know, 992 00:49:15,916 --> 00:49:19,076 Speaker 1: But that has never been the thing that's ever ever 993 00:49:19,156 --> 00:49:22,076 Speaker 1: gotten us anywhere in terms of motivating us to make songs. 994 00:49:22,156 --> 00:49:25,156 Speaker 1: And it's just the songs. It's like if a song 995 00:49:25,196 --> 00:49:27,396 Speaker 1: we like it and we're like, I like that's a 996 00:49:27,596 --> 00:49:30,436 Speaker 1: that's a good song. That's a beautiful song. That's why 997 00:49:30,476 --> 00:49:31,516 Speaker 1: we're still a band. 998 00:49:31,756 --> 00:49:32,836 Speaker 3: Like that's enough too. 999 00:49:33,156 --> 00:49:35,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, I won't be able to be the kind of 1000 00:49:36,356 --> 00:49:39,876 Speaker 1: performer like Micjagger is, you know, because well, I mean 1001 00:49:39,916 --> 00:49:42,436 Speaker 1: and I think he's genuine, you know, through and through 1002 00:49:42,476 --> 00:49:48,716 Speaker 1: he is the you know. But I think my show 1003 00:49:49,116 --> 00:49:54,316 Speaker 1: and thing is like I think has to to age 1004 00:49:54,596 --> 00:49:58,036 Speaker 1: and evolve with me, mean meaning I used to lose 1005 00:49:58,076 --> 00:50:00,396 Speaker 1: my mind. I used to smash stuff. I used to like, 1006 00:50:00,516 --> 00:50:03,436 Speaker 1: you know, I would throw full bottles of wine thirty 1007 00:50:03,436 --> 00:50:06,316 Speaker 1: feet in the air, you know, and above the band, 1008 00:50:06,356 --> 00:50:09,596 Speaker 1: above me, and like and like in controlled way where 1009 00:50:09,596 --> 00:50:11,796 Speaker 1: I would like let it smash the pieces like right 1010 00:50:11,876 --> 00:50:14,676 Speaker 1: around me, you know, and like and I, you know, 1011 00:50:14,716 --> 00:50:17,076 Speaker 1: and going out into the crowd, and. 1012 00:50:16,516 --> 00:50:19,196 Speaker 3: And you go into the crowd. 1013 00:50:19,396 --> 00:50:21,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I go and I do love that. I 1014 00:50:21,556 --> 00:50:23,236 Speaker 1: might still do that, but if I if I feel 1015 00:50:23,276 --> 00:50:25,556 Speaker 1: like I'm doing that, because if it's part of the show, 1016 00:50:25,676 --> 00:50:27,156 Speaker 1: I want to kill myself. You know. 1017 00:50:27,236 --> 00:50:30,036 Speaker 3: It's like or because it's expected or it's your stick 1018 00:50:30,156 --> 00:50:30,556 Speaker 3: or something. 1019 00:50:30,756 --> 00:50:33,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and all that stuff kind of becomes a stick. 1020 00:50:33,716 --> 00:50:36,396 Speaker 1: And I think some of some of the self discussed 1021 00:50:36,556 --> 00:50:38,356 Speaker 1: was like I was self. I was discussed with my 1022 00:50:38,396 --> 00:50:41,676 Speaker 1: own shtick, you know, like writing about myself or like 1023 00:50:41,716 --> 00:50:44,396 Speaker 1: the idea of like doing that show and going out 1024 00:50:44,396 --> 00:50:46,116 Speaker 1: into the crowd, when I was like, that is not 1025 00:50:46,636 --> 00:50:48,956 Speaker 1: the person I am right now. I can't go sing 1026 00:50:48,956 --> 00:50:52,156 Speaker 1: these songs and go into a crowd and entertain people. 1027 00:50:52,236 --> 00:50:54,756 Speaker 1: I can't even I can barely. I can't watch TV, 1028 00:50:54,996 --> 00:50:58,356 Speaker 1: you know. I can bear. I'm I'm non verbal. I 1029 00:50:58,396 --> 00:51:02,436 Speaker 1: can't be an entertainer, you know. So like some show, 1030 00:51:02,596 --> 00:51:06,516 Speaker 1: I have to sort of just embrace whatever where whatever 1031 00:51:06,556 --> 00:51:09,356 Speaker 1: I am, you know. And so that's not always is 1032 00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:11,876 Speaker 1: a great show. I don't know, maybe it is. I 1033 00:51:12,116 --> 00:51:16,316 Speaker 1: I like watching uncomfortable performers do nothing, you know. I 1034 00:51:16,356 --> 00:51:22,076 Speaker 1: find that riveting. But yeah, so so there is there's 1035 00:51:22,076 --> 00:51:23,996 Speaker 1: a there is a there is a little bit of 1036 00:51:24,036 --> 00:51:27,036 Speaker 1: that of like if it feels like we're going through 1037 00:51:27,036 --> 00:51:31,156 Speaker 1: the motions and and trying to, you know, put on 1038 00:51:31,196 --> 00:51:33,036 Speaker 1: the show. If it feels like you know, Phantom of 1039 00:51:33,076 --> 00:51:38,116 Speaker 1: the Opera, you know that after a while, that's it's 1040 00:51:38,116 --> 00:51:39,476 Speaker 1: just it's just it's a bummer. 1041 00:51:39,836 --> 00:51:41,876 Speaker 3: I know that female artists have to deal with this 1042 00:51:41,956 --> 00:51:44,436 Speaker 3: a lot. But when you've gone out into the crowd 1043 00:51:44,556 --> 00:51:48,116 Speaker 3: like that, has anything sketchy ever happened to you? 1044 00:51:48,236 --> 00:51:51,876 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it gets weird, and like it gets it 1045 00:51:51,916 --> 00:51:53,756 Speaker 1: gets weird out there. That's why I'm like, I don't 1046 00:51:53,756 --> 00:51:56,356 Speaker 1: know if I like doing this anymore. It mostly it's 1047 00:51:56,436 --> 00:51:58,956 Speaker 1: almost all love and people just like that's the other thing. 1048 00:51:58,956 --> 00:52:02,636 Speaker 1: It's like it's people just crushed together and sing and 1049 00:52:02,636 --> 00:52:04,916 Speaker 1: and you're getting in your singing their hearts out, and 1050 00:52:04,996 --> 00:52:08,636 Speaker 1: it's people having an incredible moment and I am too. 1051 00:52:08,876 --> 00:52:12,076 Speaker 1: But then sometimes but but it gets scary. You know, 1052 00:52:12,116 --> 00:52:14,116 Speaker 1: it gets scary when when I'm just like that many 1053 00:52:14,156 --> 00:52:17,156 Speaker 1: bodies and the crush of people, so that and then 1054 00:52:17,316 --> 00:52:18,756 Speaker 1: obviously there's a lot of people that just want to 1055 00:52:18,796 --> 00:52:20,716 Speaker 1: hang on you and just like want to like you 1056 00:52:20,916 --> 00:52:23,436 Speaker 1: want to spend the like spend the whole time with you, 1057 00:52:23,516 --> 00:52:24,796 Speaker 1: and like I was like, you know what this is. 1058 00:52:24,876 --> 00:52:27,396 Speaker 1: I'm doing this kind of for me and for like 1059 00:52:27,476 --> 00:52:29,356 Speaker 1: lots of people. It's not just for you to hang 1060 00:52:29,396 --> 00:52:31,196 Speaker 1: on me and like, you know, follow me. I don't 1061 00:52:31,236 --> 00:52:33,956 Speaker 1: like when people like follow me the whole time and 1062 00:52:33,956 --> 00:52:36,716 Speaker 1: and try to like you know, and people often try 1063 00:52:36,756 --> 00:52:39,756 Speaker 1: to pick me up because and I never let that. 1064 00:52:39,876 --> 00:52:44,556 Speaker 1: I don't crowdsurfing is I is not. I hate it. 1065 00:52:44,556 --> 00:52:46,556 Speaker 3: It's because they can drop you. You can just fall 1066 00:52:46,596 --> 00:52:47,676 Speaker 3: into all that it. 1067 00:52:47,796 --> 00:52:51,476 Speaker 1: Is always it just looks so stupid to me when 1068 00:52:51,476 --> 00:52:53,516 Speaker 1: you're up there trying to sing and you're being carried. 1069 00:52:53,596 --> 00:52:54,796 Speaker 1: I mean I know, I mean I've done it a 1070 00:52:54,836 --> 00:52:57,196 Speaker 1: bunch of times. It is like a it's a bucket list, 1071 00:52:57,236 --> 00:52:59,676 Speaker 1: you got to do it. You know, you're just feeling 1072 00:52:59,996 --> 00:53:03,036 Speaker 1: like such an idiot. I don't know. I mean certain bands, 1073 00:53:03,156 --> 00:53:05,036 Speaker 1: if I were Blake, wedd eighty two or whatever, you 1074 00:53:05,236 --> 00:53:08,876 Speaker 1: hell yeah, but not I can't. I just it's not 1075 00:53:09,156 --> 00:53:11,476 Speaker 1: it just doesn't feel right. But anyways, like all that 1076 00:53:11,556 --> 00:53:14,236 Speaker 1: kind of stuff is like you just have to constantly 1077 00:53:14,916 --> 00:53:17,236 Speaker 1: try to stay yourself and that changes. That's the thing. 1078 00:53:17,236 --> 00:53:19,636 Speaker 1: It changes. If you're trying to stay true to who 1079 00:53:19,676 --> 00:53:22,196 Speaker 1: you were when you were you know, thirty or twenty 1080 00:53:22,196 --> 00:53:24,996 Speaker 1: five or nineteen or whatever, you're kind of gonna look 1081 00:53:25,676 --> 00:53:28,316 Speaker 1: kind of silly. You know. Then again, well I even know, 1082 00:53:28,796 --> 00:53:31,516 Speaker 1: well I even know you know that I look silly. 1083 00:53:31,596 --> 00:53:34,876 Speaker 3: I know, right, probably not. I mean, well, your daughter 1084 00:53:34,916 --> 00:53:36,676 Speaker 3: will tell you that. 1085 00:53:37,476 --> 00:53:40,436 Speaker 1: I'm praying she does. So far, so far, she's been 1086 00:53:40,476 --> 00:53:43,436 Speaker 1: pretty kind. She's like, I mean she has seen some 1087 00:53:43,516 --> 00:53:46,636 Speaker 1: videos that we've attempted to make some videos, and she's 1088 00:53:46,676 --> 00:53:51,316 Speaker 1: like she's like, really, yeah, thing like that, she says. 1089 00:53:51,356 --> 00:53:52,956 Speaker 1: She's like, you look like you're trying to be all that. 1090 00:53:53,236 --> 00:53:55,796 Speaker 1: You know. It's like yeah, she's like, it ruins this 1091 00:53:55,916 --> 00:53:58,036 Speaker 1: fair criticiz ruined. She's like, it kind of ruins the 1092 00:53:58,076 --> 00:53:59,836 Speaker 1: song for me. I was like, uh, you got to 1093 00:53:59,876 --> 00:54:03,396 Speaker 1: kill that video, you know. I know it's good. Thank God, 1094 00:54:03,796 --> 00:54:04,516 Speaker 1: thank God for her. 1095 00:54:05,276 --> 00:54:08,316 Speaker 3: How do you feel about the sad Dad music label? 1096 00:54:09,116 --> 00:54:09,956 Speaker 3: Does that sit with you? 1097 00:54:10,676 --> 00:54:15,836 Speaker 1: I don't care. I mean, it's it's appropriate. I cannot 1098 00:54:16,396 --> 00:54:22,876 Speaker 1: I mean like yeah, it definitely like it's I totally 1099 00:54:22,916 --> 00:54:27,676 Speaker 1: understand it, and I think I I think I embrace it. Yeah, yeah, 1100 00:54:28,076 --> 00:54:31,636 Speaker 1: it feels fine. I mean, I I it's not it's 1101 00:54:31,676 --> 00:54:35,476 Speaker 1: not how I would define myself, you know, entirely. But yeah, 1102 00:54:35,756 --> 00:54:38,116 Speaker 1: that's a little part of me. And I say that's 1103 00:54:38,156 --> 00:54:40,676 Speaker 1: a little part of of everybody. I think it's something. 1104 00:54:40,676 --> 00:54:43,876 Speaker 1: I think. The funny thing is like like my daughter, 1105 00:54:43,956 --> 00:54:46,916 Speaker 1: I think like loves the sad dads. Like we've been 1106 00:54:47,156 --> 00:54:49,236 Speaker 1: we saw hoodies that say sad Dad's on it. It's 1107 00:54:49,236 --> 00:54:51,556 Speaker 1: like her, you know, she's into it. She loves like 1108 00:54:51,556 --> 00:54:53,916 Speaker 1: like it's cool, you know. And for some reason, I 1109 00:54:53,916 --> 00:54:55,676 Speaker 1: think it's cool to be a sad dad. But but 1110 00:54:55,716 --> 00:54:58,436 Speaker 1: I but I also I can see why why other 1111 00:54:58,516 --> 00:55:02,236 Speaker 1: artists that get the sad and mostly it's young women 1112 00:55:02,356 --> 00:55:05,316 Speaker 1: get the sort of sort of you know, the sad 1113 00:55:05,916 --> 00:55:10,116 Speaker 1: label and how that can be infuriating. And but for me, 1114 00:55:10,836 --> 00:55:16,476 Speaker 1: like I've earned it. Yeah, I can't mat, I cannot 1115 00:55:16,596 --> 00:55:17,156 Speaker 1: say that that. 1116 00:55:17,076 --> 00:55:20,156 Speaker 3: Does not ship well Pitchfork. I read that Pitchfork wrote 1117 00:55:20,636 --> 00:55:23,076 Speaker 3: the national art dad rock as much as their men's 1118 00:55:23,156 --> 00:55:24,116 Speaker 3: magazine Rock. 1119 00:55:24,916 --> 00:55:28,116 Speaker 1: That's kind of more sleek. No, that one's hurtful. 1120 00:55:28,236 --> 00:55:31,636 Speaker 3: That's hurtful. I feel like that's sleek. That's like GQ rock. 1121 00:55:32,836 --> 00:55:36,236 Speaker 1: I think like Maxim when you say men's magazines, I 1122 00:55:36,716 --> 00:55:40,916 Speaker 1: think it like details and yeah, I don't think in 1123 00:55:40,996 --> 00:55:43,956 Speaker 1: GQ is I guess yeah, GQ reck. I don't think 1124 00:55:43,956 --> 00:55:46,756 Speaker 1: we're GQ rack either. That'd be cool. I wish we 1125 00:55:46,756 --> 00:55:49,196 Speaker 1: were GQ rack. I am. I am doing an interview 1126 00:55:49,196 --> 00:55:50,316 Speaker 1: with GQ I think soon. 1127 00:55:50,996 --> 00:55:53,076 Speaker 3: Have you done many interviews yet for this album? 1128 00:55:53,436 --> 00:55:56,476 Speaker 1: No, not that many. I'm doing a lot less. I'm 1129 00:55:56,516 --> 00:56:02,956 Speaker 1: doing a lot less than usual. Just yeah. A lot 1130 00:56:02,996 --> 00:56:05,796 Speaker 1: of it is because it's like, eh, the stuff on 1131 00:56:05,836 --> 00:56:08,516 Speaker 1: this record is a little bit harder to talk about. 1132 00:56:08,756 --> 00:56:12,236 Speaker 1: I think maybe I kind of was like, it's kind 1133 00:56:12,236 --> 00:56:14,956 Speaker 1: of all they are on the record, you know, so 1134 00:56:14,956 --> 00:56:18,156 Speaker 1: so like getting into it a little bit, digging further 1135 00:56:18,236 --> 00:56:20,876 Speaker 1: into it is it feels a little icky. But I 1136 00:56:20,916 --> 00:56:22,516 Speaker 1: know that's I know that's part of it, and I'm 1137 00:56:22,516 --> 00:56:25,436 Speaker 1: happy to do and so but this has been delightful 1138 00:56:25,436 --> 00:56:26,076 Speaker 1: that it isn't that. 1139 00:56:26,316 --> 00:56:28,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate so much you taking the time and 1140 00:56:28,596 --> 00:56:32,556 Speaker 3: being so thoughtful and best wishes with the album. It's awesome, 1141 00:56:33,196 --> 00:56:36,636 Speaker 3: thank you, And sounds like you have another album already ready. 1142 00:56:36,876 --> 00:56:40,756 Speaker 1: Maybe we always say that nonetheless, it's gonna be it's 1143 00:56:40,796 --> 00:56:44,156 Speaker 1: gotta be great. So if it's not. It'll take it then. 1144 00:56:44,156 --> 00:56:46,196 Speaker 1: It might take some time, but thanks for doing this. This 1145 00:56:46,236 --> 00:56:46,756 Speaker 1: seems cool. 1146 00:56:49,796 --> 00:56:53,116 Speaker 2: Thanks to Matt Berninger for breaking down his songwriting process 1147 00:56:53,156 --> 00:56:56,236 Speaker 2: with Lea. You can hear all of our favorite national 1148 00:56:56,316 --> 00:57:00,396 Speaker 2: songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. 1149 00:57:00,796 --> 00:57:04,316 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 1150 00:57:04,356 --> 00:57:07,116 Speaker 2: Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, 1151 00:57:07,476 --> 00:57:11,756 Speaker 2: Ben Holliday, and Eric's Antler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. 1152 00:57:12,316 --> 00:57:15,476 Speaker 2: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if 1153 00:57:15,476 --> 00:57:17,636 Speaker 2: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and 1154 00:57:17,676 --> 00:57:20,756 Speaker 2: review us on your podcast. App Our theme musics by 1155 00:57:20,796 --> 00:57:27,396 Speaker 2: Kenny Beats I'm justin Richman. Consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 1156 00:57:27,996 --> 00:57:31,596 Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 1157 00:57:31,676 --> 00:57:34,956 Speaker 2: an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. 1158 00:57:35,356 --> 00:57:38,796 Speaker 2: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if 1159 00:57:38,836 --> 00:57:40,996 Speaker 2: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and 1160 00:57:41,036 --> 00:57:44,116 Speaker 2: review us on your podcast. App Our theme music expY 1161 00:57:44,156 --> 00:57:46,276 Speaker 2: Kenny Beats I'm justin Richmond